Also, TLOU2 is one of those games where a single specific plot, character or a segment HAS to work and resonate with the players, otherwise the entire game won't work. Here it's Abby's story and segment, that 10 hours journey with her & The game developpers trying to get me to like her didn't work at all for me and thus the entire story didn't. I don't like Abby, I don't feel anything for her, so the entire conflict of ''Abby is actually a good person at heart and Ellie is maybe going too far, Should you really kill her?" simply didn't work, because idgaf about Abby and I want to kill her . Making Abby pet a dog, while giving me as Ellie no choice but to kill it won't change anything simply because : The game didn't give me a choice, and it's trying to manipulate me into caring for Abby. TLOU2 relied so much on one character, they risked it all with Abby and that's a brave thing to do, but also if you don't start caring about her story, the game and its conflict won't work.
See, I think part of it was the trailers too. We saw NOTHING about Abby, and they actively told people that they Ellie was the only character you’d play as. I also only had a month of build up (I played the first recently) versus the 7 years many had. I also saw no spoilers, so it DID work for me. But I also know how incredibly fucking frustrating it is for long time fans.
If you can't bring yourself to forgive a virtual fiction character... If you didn't care for Abby after all what the devs showed about her, her origins, her motives, her losses and her "redemption" with Lev... It was NOT cuz the game "failed" or "didn"t give you a choice". It was because "YOU" decided to NOT care. You didn't want to "know" anything about Abby and you were driven by hate for her for killing Joel, even if her act was "justified" in her eyes. The fact that she spared Ellie "TWICE" is enough for me to see that she's just as Ellie, wanted revenge for the murder of her father. Joel is no hero for the world. Joel didn't do anything noble, even he, himself admits that in the start of the game, to Tommy. He knew that what he did will comeback and haunt him. Everyone in TLOU world is an "Abby" of an "Ellie" or a "Joel" for an "Abby". Just as everyone is a "Joel" for "Ellie". Ellie isn't a "good" person either, in fact, there is no pure evil or pure bad. We knew Joel and Ellie very well, we got attached to them. I was furious when Abby killed Joel even when he saved her life. But I respected her when she spared Ellie and Tommy right there, and let them live cuz they weren't part of it. Turns out it was a huge mistake she made, as Ellie killed everyone she cared for. Abby had the right to kill Ellie when they fought, but her personality changed after she met Lev and his sister, and she became his "Joel" and she spared both Ellie and Dina "again". It's in those moments you see the true nature of a person. If she can forgive and move on. Abby didn't find satisfaction after killing Joel, but found it when she saved Lev and spared Ellie. Ellie couldn't let go and it cost her everything in the end. BUT she gained her humanity back, she let Abby go to take care of Lev, Abby didn't even want to fight her, she was forced by Ellie. But the moment Ellie spared Abby, she won the war, stopped the cycle and moved on, forgiving Joel and letting him go. And there's you.... Enable to see the good in the bad. Chosing to not care about Abby, even after all you knew about her. This game, what the devs did, DID work. They made you feel the hate, and gave you the choice to "forgive" or not. You chose not to. It was the point. To show how far us, humains can go when driven by hate.
@@aminedbgt Sorry but that is pure bullshit... If a creator writes any kind of fiction that has the objective of causing a certain reaction to the audience and he utterly fails to achieve that reaction in a major part of the audience, the one at fault is EXCLUSIVELY the creator and not the audience... Hell, when a comedian does a monologue and that bores half of his audience, the one that the critics blame is the comedian, no? This is the same thing, ND's objective was to make the audience care about Abby and if they failed to achieve it with a good portion of the audience it's their fault, and that is final.
@@machacasaurius simply the game wasn't made to please everyone. They said it was gonna upset a lot of the first game's fans. Either ways, the achieved their goal. Make you hate the game, or love it. Hate Abby or love her, forgive her or not. And anyways the game did very, very well on sales and is one of the best Sony exclusives of all times. People are gonna jump on Part 3 if and when it comes regardless of what they thought about Part 2. I personally loved the game, the story, the characters. It's far from perfect of course, but it's one special kind of a game and that's exactly what Naughty dog wanted to do. They had a vision, a story to tell, and they took the risk of pissing a lot of their fan base, yet they did it anyways and I respect them for that.
I'm just going to state my opinion here. For a (technically) first ever review I've seen from you, you absolutely nail everything a good review needs. Unbiased, informative, listening friendly, thoughtful and a pretty good level of uniqueness to it. If you were doing this thinking it would be a one off, you did really well but if you actually wanted to branch out into these more often I think you could have a whole new world of content you could explore if you wanted to. Gg man, gg
The reason why Abby's portion of the story didn't feel built up to her interaction with Ellie is because she didn't even realize that Ellie was coming after her. She thought everything she had done to them in Jackson was done. But just like Joel's story arc in part 1 her past caught up to her. So it is not forced and this is not a good point (20:25).
Idk I've always liked it when the bad guy doesn't even know people are after them. Same thing with how joel dies. He had no idea who abby was or that she was even coming after him.
Brandon Pick actually he knew he did something bad: killing almost everyone in the hospital to save ellie. He mentioned it with Tommy in the first few mins. If he is awared about it, ofc someone will go after him. He even killed merlene, firefly queen, at the end to stop them going after ellie. One more thing, Abby has no idea about joel and ellie. First, she only knew the name Joel. If i remember correctly, Joel never tell anyone his whole name Joel Miller in the first game. Going after someone based on the name Joel only is hard. Not to mention that she never meet Joel before. The evidence is that Abby only know how Joel look like is when Tommy introduce their names (not even surname). She may know Joel reside in Jackson but how do u know that u get the right one. Furthermore, the whole game’s central theme about vengeance is bad yet it feel really biased. While Abby lost her friends, she got someone to care for in the end while Ellie has nothing left. Both experienced PTSD to drive their ambition. Abby follow through but Ellie didnt. Theres more thing to write about but i feel stupid for writing an essay in yt comment so i end here. Thanks for reading
Honestly, you don't need to be a story teller to know how bad story structure can be when it's get thrown in your face at random. I didn't play the game but since its a narrative focus game, I can watch it on UA-cam and know what's what. It's not that hard to understand and you don't need a English Degree to understand this messy story The Last of Us 2 displayed before us.
This game is just crushing. I loved it, but I empathize with the fans who were disappointed. I know I wouldn’t feel nearly as much love to this game if I played the first so long ago and saw all those garbage, misleading trailers. I didn’t have that, I played the first a month ago and didn’t see any trailers. So I think that’s a large part of the divide. Longtime fans were given a product different from what they were promised. I think the future will look more fondly on this game, but the hate is pretty deserved. There are flaws, I’d never deny that, but this game is really special to my heart.
I myself am not a fan of Naughty Dog's recent titles(Uncharted and Last of Us), as I am more of a Crash Bandicoot and Jak and Daxter guy. But hey, I don't expend all of my energy talking about not liking them.
@@azazel166 I'm still holding some hope that Jak and Daxter will return. I played that series to death as a kid. Im not sure if it would have the same atmosphere considering The Last of Us started off as a sequel to Jak and Daxter.
Dude I honestly forgot half of characters names. Ellie was just going through them like butter and I was like wait what was that person's name again. 😂 I realize now that it was faulty story telling that caused that and it wasn't just me.
@@ChampionAnalysis I remember Manny, Nora, and Mel. I only remember Mel because she's pregnant. Then the guy at the beginning who got cut by Ellie's knife I call scar face guy.😂
@@Mojavekight17 to you 😊 i see and understand this guys opinions on what he views as flaws in the game because he describes it, and therefore i can respect his view while still viewing it differently. When you reduce your feelings and opinions to simple "factual" statement, you dismiss the existence of other opinions in a way that only incentivises a war of "no i'm right so you're wrong" rather than the more critical "you make some great points, heres my take; hey isn't it cool we both got two completely different yet valid experiences from this and hearing each others opinion could potentially make both opinions evolve?"
There would be only two types of videos I would want from you. 1. Anoth SMT analysis, persona or otherwise if you have played any of the other titles. 2. Character study on Travis Touchdown from no more heroes, to prep people for when III arrives. But even if neither are possible you just keep doing what your doing. Respect your content and trust your instincts as a creator overall. So take a break after this if you need it.
Yes its agenda because the fucking game is focusing on people sexual orientations and genders like if it's more important than the fucking zombie apocalypse itself .. the writer make you feel like the whole lev story is just thrown out of no where just to shove gender issues and random presentation like if it just happens that the protagonist or antagonist or some character to be from LGBTQ jsbsnaa not being shoved at our throats nobody would care brah
The reason people complain about the gay agenda is not because of representation but because of what is said in politics against white and straight people on the news. People get so tired of being attacked with messages bigotry masked as social justice. Like insulting white and straight people is ok but not the other way around. It’s not homophobia but political fatigue.
I felt disappointed by the game, but have been having a hard time putting together the concise reasons as to why I felt so. In my opinion, you have given the best in-depth analysis and explanation of the game's story and why it failed for many. Amazing man!
Actually Tommy introduced himself and Joel with name to Abby when they met. Then it is also showed in the loggers that Jackson hadn’t had problems with bandits for a long time, and all the interactions with outsiders is helping them and trading with them. You can also see that Joel was not comfortable in the situation when he entered the room with all the people, and Tommy wanted them all to go back to Jackson with them. Maybe not perfect writing, but it is not hard to believe that someone after years in Jackson, after probably introducing themselves with name countless times would make a mistake.
The most important one for me is their copyright abuse, false marketing and hostile insults to not just disappointed players but pretty much everyone. Screw what’s actually in the game especially when they clearly didn’t follow their own message, they don’t deserve a cent for that. We need a “integrity agenda” because the corporatists across the world have sure forgotten about it.
You know the funny thing is that they could have done the story of how revenge will get you nowhere with Abby.I mean she was the one who wanted to have revenge.Why not have her meet ellie in the middle of the game.And learn more about joel through.You know her finding out how joel lost her daughter.And why joel had to save ellie.I mean i liked abby.I think she was a really interesting character.It just sucks that she wasn't handled so well
This video was really well done, I appreciate that you actually addressed each main flaw in detail that people would point out about the game. The story had a lot of flaws in it and it really sucks that there are a lot of little details in the game that are overlooked because the game is considered to be bad overall to many.
I'm going to be honest here guys once I got to the part with Abby's flashback I couldn't play anymore. Up until that point I wanted to give it a chance because I loved the 1st game so much but after that I just couldn't. To me it was just put together poorly and I wasn't going to keep playing a game that made me feel like I wasted my time and money.
I don't like the game because I don't like the story, that's it, the characters also don't feel like themselves & the new ones are all uninteresting. The game is so depressing and leaves you feeling so empty, to the point where I had to ask myself : "What was the point of playing that game?" Can you answer that? Learning that revenge is bad? Well, no shit, we have many different games and other medias who portray that message way better than TLOU2. It's not because it has LGBT characters or that bs, I LOVED the first game's dlc and it had a LGBT relationship between two girls as its main driving relationship. I just don't like the story, simple, so please stop trying to turn valid criticisms into agendas and political stuff.
I appreciate your view on the game. You played it and came to your own conclusion. I loved TLOU, TLOU2, & I am praying for a TLOU3. As a casual gamer I think the game is a 10. I loved the first TLOU and Joel/Ellie's story, however, I felt killing Joel had to happen after Joel killed the Fireflies and Marlene. I was pleased with Abby/Lev and I hope to see more of them. I was shocked to actually be pissed at Tommy who I liked a lot especially in the first game. When he killed Manny though...that really pissed me off. My only complaint is Abby didn't appear to grieve more after she discovered that he friends were dead. I liked WLF Salt Lake City Crew.
The game is trying to be miserable and sad it glorifies it and overuses this effectively characters act differently from their established personas (ellie is incredibly violent way beyond any sense of good meaning, Joel lets his guard down and get murdered off the spot) it supposed to make you feel miserable and depressed, and its objective is to bring you a miserable story and make you depressed.... in TLOU1 darkness and gloominess was used as an atmosphere, aesthetic. But not rampantly....it was used to point a finger in the direction of light and hope, to see why people continue to struggle against overwhelming so effectively and in some cases why they're even successful you wanted to see everyone succeed and be happy in the end. in this TLOU2 everything is so depressing that you become desensitized to it among the issues that come along with it, it honestly just leaves me disappointed...
So, about the LGBTQ stuff, it doesn't annoy me that they're in the game. It annoys me that they hamfist it into a lot of media, NOTE this game is ok with it. We don't want gay trans etc characters, we want GOOD characters who HAPPEN to be those things. A lot of people who are grouped with the "agenda" crowd think about it in this way and don't know how to properly express themselves. However they do get drowned out by the people who just say it's literally just so they can further their "agenda" and thus get lumped into the crowd. About the video, you touch on some excellent points, I agree with the pacing issue 100%, you go on to mention that the story is about forgiveness or rather should have been but it gets buried under the awful pacing and story decisions, to this I can only say "Finally someone sees it". Abby was a horribly mishandled character within this story, the idea is bold as you state, but it's obvious that she needed much more time and she needed to be written in a much better fashion, holding off on the details here since I might make a video about it myself. Joel's death is a kicker as well, it feels like the writers just decided to kill him and never put any thought into how to do it, so they come up with an overly elaborate death scene, it would've been MUCH simpler to have had Abby or someone else SEE Joel previously and just have them ambush and kill him, Joel no longer breaks character you can have your emotion when Ellie finds the corpse and you can have your revenge plot anyway by sprinkling some investigation as well. Finally, I want to congratulate you on a fantasticly well put together video hope to have given some food for thought to some people, and as always I'm looking forward to watching the next one! Thanks for making such entertaining videos!
@@TheTariqibnziyad Its time for you to go bro. If you can't read this comment and actually get to the point he is trying to make, you really should just sign off.
While I don't really agree on the agenda part, at least you offered a honest opinion on the matter. The rest of this was really good. A great analysis and anticulation of thoughts on the game. I will say this though, in the game's defense, the writers did a really good job in what they were trying to convey (similarly to the situation with Ardyn Izuna) and the emotions they wanted people to feel. I just think they dropped the ball with the ending.
When you said that the flashbacks should have been the beginning of the story with Ellie, I jumped out of my chair and screamed "fucking facts" and woke my uncle up. But I agree with the points you made with the video, they was strong and actually made me like the game more than I already did.
They wouldn't carry the same weight if they were placed at the beginning. The flashbacks were intentionally supposed to be a bittersweet experience for the player. One, you were overjoyed to be spending time with Ellie and Joel again. Two, you were saddened with the reality that this is fleeting. Each flashback shows the increased divide between Joel and Ellie's relationship. It also adds more complexity to Ellie's motivation for exacting revenge when you learn she knew about Joel's deception all along. This game is incredible, man. Crazy good!
MAJOR I’m glad to see some one gets it. If they didn’t place in the beginning then the entire point of the game is lost. I feel naughty dog wanted to challenge us, to see if we can show sympathy for someone we are suppose to hate. It just wouldn’t t have the same impact if killed during the half way point.
No they shouldn't. The flashbacks are a nice change from the dark story and gameplay. None of the flashbacks would hit as hard if we didn't know Joel was dead.
I don't claim that there is an agenda because the has a character that is not either male and/or straight, and/or white for the same reasons I don't claim that a game that has a male, straight, white character to be racist and so on.
You have issues if all you see in people are labels. Not syaing they don't matter but there are others things to consider about an individual rather than a single block that is answered by one or two words.
From point of view, what we have seen in tlou2 had to be in in tlou3. Tlou2 should have been based all on Abby's story because what we had about her until the reason of the start of here revenge, was shown a little (just one or two flashbacks before the main trigger). That's why people didn't care about Abby, because there had no strong background story of here & her father like we had with Ely & Joel, we only got the consequences, not origins, that's why people didn't establish emotion connection to Abby. On the paper it looks good, you show 2 girls with similar tragedy interconnected by the events & demonstrate the tragedy of vengeance with the possibility to understand each side doing terrible things, but in practice, we only saw one of the girls tragedy with enough time to understand so we can empathize with (just imagine if 1sr tlou being told the way it did but with Aby & her father instead - non would critique her).
I'm not against LGBT representation in media. I'm against a lazy representation of them to score "points" on social media. I haven't bought the game because Ellie is gay - she's herself and it's cool. What's not cool is how her and other characters got their character reduced to literal idiots (Joel & Ellie for example). Joel dies like an idiot, Ellie kills a ton of people, including a pregnant woman, to get to Abbie and she ends up not killing her. Wtf. As for Abbie - she's not trans, but if Naughty Dog wouldn't clarify, more people would say she is - and I don't blame them. Hell, they even banned a twitch streamer who said "I don't wanna play as this trans". You can get buff, but not as buff, especially during apocalypse where you have limited amount of food and not that much time to start working out and I belive the original plan for this character was that she was supposed to be a trans character, but due to 2020 and people recognizing bad characters for social media points, they back peddaled & hoped it's gonna save the character for some reason. But it didn't. Nothing in the game makes people feel bad for Abbie, she's completley meaningless. Just like the whole story.
Gameplay should always be king and this game is almost perfect, is the story and narrative that suffers, and since I don't care about that crap in a 3rd PERSON SHOOTER this game was pretty solid. The gay agenda? that wasn't offensive at all since The first game has Gay DLC anyway, so I don't know why people were surprised besides The Simpsons did the gay joke and representation in the 90s in one of the best episodes of the whole series. What was the point? There was none, simple as that, not everything needs to have a point, it was fun, had not many bugs if any, and was a massive improvement, people are just bitching about the story and narrative and pacing, but many games of today focus way too much in dumb stories and narrative and gameplay are starting to get shafted, thanks for Super Gigant and Capcom that still make fun games (Except Resident evil 3, that game sucked) I guess that's why I liked LOUS2 so much because I came from playing RE3 and filled super disappointed. Just Play NIOH 2, DOOM ETERNAL, AND HADES PEOPLE, Never play Any Naughtydog game again ( Is not I have like them since they stopped making Crash games at the very end of the 90s.)
I agree that the game is really fun to play. Cranking that difficulty to Survivor or Grounded makes it a thrilling fight for survival. I think a person's enjoyment of the game comes down to what they value these days from a game too. I personally enjoy a good narrative so it can affect how much I like the game. Especially if it's a big part of the game. For example, I don't like Abby and I absolutely hate her friends. Owen is such a fuckboy that it hurts. So even though I sometimes get the urge to replay this game, I remember that Abby and her friends are half of it and suddenly I'm not as motivated to anymore. I'll fucking replay Uncharted 4 for the 15th time no problem though lol I hope I can enjoy their next project more (w.e it may be). I don't hate Naughty Dog for this one game. They still gave us Uncharted, one of my absolute favorite series of games.
The reason people complain about the gay agenda is not because of representation but because of what is said in politics against white and straight people on the news. People get so tired of being attacked with messages bigotry masked as social justice. Like insulting white and straight people is ok but not the other way around. It’s not homophobia but political fatigue.
There’s not much gameplay. Just so many cinematic. It drags. It pissed me off. The game is very detail and everything like that but going on the horse and walking through the wood as playing as Abby when she was 15 just drags. There’s not much gameplay. Ellie was strong and loyal she will kill anyone just for Joel. I preorder the game. Where I was playing as Abby and trying to kill Ellie, I just kept Ellie to kill me. I had about 50 deaths and then I just carried on and then found out Ellie lost. I absolutely went metal that she lost and broke her arm. I absolutely deleted the game and gave up. I didn’t continue after that. I can’t see that happening. Ellie would bang Abby no doubt. I’m not accepting that Ellie got banged and Joel death was for nothing.
@@ChampionAnalysis it's the same disingenuous argument Neil drunkmann made on his Instagram. I watched the entire video. Why did Metacritic need to delete thousands upon thousands of negative reviews? The franchise is over who will buy a game starring a Abby? Neil need your support now more than ever.
@@henrytownshed5304 My argument was never that people who dislike the game are bigoted. My argument was anyone who cries agenda is making a pointless argument for the quality of the game and that pointless argument is, at the very least, rooted in an uncomfortable reaction to seeing lgbtq people in the game. The game has plenty of flaws that merit the criticisms thrown at it. An agenda isn't one of them. If you really saw my whole video then you wouldn't have had this response to it. I agree that it is a disingenuous argument to claim that people who don't like the game are bigoted. However, thats not the argument I made.
The game is a narrative mess that starts the game with the antagonist and then later forced protagonist committing an narratively irredeemable act. If Abby's character had been fleshed out, flip flopping between her early life and Ellie's life in the first half of the game, her actions could have atleast been justified. However as has been proven, showing a character's justification for a crime long after it has been committed does not save the opinion of the character from the collective hate of the masses. The number of people I have seen complaining about the game's supposed LGBT agenda is so infinitesimally small one could be mistaken in believing the opinion doesn't exist at all. The number of people I see complain about this game's narrative decisions when looking at things like character motivations/actions in comparison is the majority of the game's critique. Some will even try to say that Ellie letting Abby go was justified. However I would wager that it wasn't, not because of my personal feelings for the character, but because up until this point I haven't been given a single reason to forgive Abby. And if I, the player who has only known the character Joel for a collective 18 hours, can't forgive Abby. Than odds are that a character like Ellie who spent years with Joel, killed dozens if not hundreds of people in her quest for vengeance, and traveled 1000 miles on foot in order to find Abby, wouldn't forgive her either. Oh and lets not forget that at the exact moment Ellie decides to let Abby go, Ellie has a flashback to the night she decides to start the journey of forgiveness with Joel. A memory that would have only roused rage in Ellie with the reminder that the very next day, Abby murdered the only father figure she has ever had. Which in turn reminds the player of their justified hatred of an irredeemable character. A horrifically designed journey, with an even worse punchline, I.E. a bad joke.
What you said about that memory she has with Joel, she was fueled by rage the entire game. The same way her final moments with Joel were because of him finally admitting what he did in the first game. The thing with that memory, is that it reminded her she can let it go, and try to move on. A lesson she learned and wanted to try out with him
I'm sorry dude but this game is agenda pushing, all you have to do is look at how Abby's built, it's not hard to see. The whole gay stuff, I don't care about as in I could take it or leave it so long as it's not portrayed as a focal point in a story that has not a thing to do with being gay. This story is not about forgiveness, I can list many reasons as to why but I'm going to start off with this question, where were Ellie's moments of clarity that would then lead up to Ellie's decision to let Abby live? There are no moments of hesitation, no moments of questioning herself, Ellie did not once struggle with thoughts between letting Abby live or putting her down, the answer is clear and that answer is "death to Abby" because that's what the narrative saying throughout the game, I mean you go from plot point to plot point trying to find her and Ellie show's no hesitation in the process. There's no development for that decision to be made so therefore does not fit the narrative.
@@5345-i1t No, it doesn't because that's not what the plot is about, straight or gay...the plot of the story doesn't change, it effects nothing. Edit: This is a post apocalyptic world, so try not to compare it to the day to day experience of the world you're living in now because it doesn't matter.
@@salsamancer Then don't play them. It's that simple. There are movie games, driving games, hardcore action games, horror games, classic 2d games, sports games, as well as fitness games. Why should they stop making one specific genre of games simply because YOU don't like it? I don't like some of the other genres I just mentioned, but that doesn't mean I want them ruined for others who do like them. Also, NO ONE liked TLOU1 for it's gameplay. It was the immersion, breathtaking visuals and artstyle, music, a story with amazingly well developed characters, with great dialogue, and Oscar worthy performances that puts most modern movies to shame.
To me, having gay or black characters is perfectly fine, so long as it actually fits in with the story. Having gay characters in the last of us makes sense, seeing as how, it's still earth, but with zombies. However when it's forced to the detriment of the story, that's where i draw the line. For example, when the story stops everything just to look at this gay side character for seemingly no reason. It doesn't sound like they did it with these characters, but still, being a character being gay shouldn't determine wether I like that character or not. And to answer the question you asked in the first part of the video; their trying to appeal to minorities by doing, quite frankly, lazy character archetypes that often have no place in the setting of the story, in an attempt to sell more copies of the game. Like i said before, i don't think that's the problem here, I just think that a character be gay shouldn't be the focal point of the character. Nux Taku said something about women in media that I think also works here too. We need more characters that happen to be gay, rather than characters being gay and building off of that.
I wonder what my experience would have been like had i not seen the leaks, and more importantly the reaction to the leaks, that i saw. I stopped myself before reading any late game stuff, but i saw the reaction to Joel's death and at the time almost all the hate was homophobic, transphobic and bigoted, and it pissed me off so much because of course Joel would die in Ellie's game and of course some scenes would have gay themes, and yes of course woman can be buff and no one should be sorry that you can't enjoy your hand the same. I gave abby and her friends a pass before i even fully knew anything more than the Joel scene and a little bit about the "ending" (when lev stops abby), and maybe because of that i grew to really enjoy and empathise with those characters, even while playing as ellie before knowing their story.
Finally somebody said it. This was also a part on why I didn't like it as well.. The entire story of part 2 was told and executed better by Nier automata route CDE
Why the hate? Because the game tried to have its cake and eat it too. You can't just give your brand new character a conclusion to their revenge narrative, then send an established and well-liked character on the start of their own revenge narrative, only to try to convince us that the new character was justified, but the established character is not. It's a hard sell even if the execution is perfect, but with an unstable premise (and several ret-cons from the previous game) they were basically asking for most of TLoU fans to hate it.
Hey man. Love your channel. I just want to put out my own opinion on the issue of sjw agenda bullshit. I am in no way shape or form against the LGBTQ community or their ultimate message. I am however not a direct supporter as it goes against my beliefs. I wont whine or cry murder against gay people. They are normal people too. I have gay friends whom I respect. I hope people can respect my beliefs and let me be. It is ok to have gay people in your stories and to have gay main characters. It's ok to have a diverse cast and give representation. I want that to be accepted. For the agenda argument, I can see why people would shout it. For the reasons you pointed out, it's true. The whole agenda argument is bullshit. But the way I see it, it's an agenda in my eyes when it is forced. You constantly shove it in people's faces that the characters are gay and continue doing that with stupid reasons. Same can be said with the diversity argument and the feminist issue. Placing other ethnicities in places they shouldn't be (e.g. medieval Europe), making characters Mary Sues or bending the rules around them to make the characters suit the cries of an aggressive and toxic minority over good story telling. I am not a fan of that. When you are writing a story of gay people for the sake of making a gay story instead of writing a proper love story between gay people like everyone else. I'm not saying TLOU2 does this. In my opinion, it is an amazingly written story for Ellie's relationship with Dina. I'm saying that's how I see something as an agenda. I may be wrong and could just be negatively influenced by the stupidity of loud extremists who taint the noble movements with their stupid demands. Feel free to educate me. I'm willing to receive feedback to understand other perspectives. Please keep it civilised. Keep up the good work man.
Bro....can we just live in peace without one side flaunting something? If we want eqaulity then we nees to be good examples to the community as a whole. And not in a negative fashion or something indecent. Anyways I agree with you statement. We need to just let people be people in the same manner that we should allow gays to be gay. But their is a line where things get weird and awkward. Decency and consideration above all.
@@Psykroids I agree. I'm all for homosexual representation in media. But you should not be special. Nor should the platform force the narrative that you are special and that everyone who mildly disagrees is a bigot. You are a person like everyone else. You just love a certain way not many do. The line of decency needs to be respected. Same thing applies to the other side of the coin.
@@doleofdolonia8859 Amen. Hell why do I need to walk around with my sexuality flag out in the open. Whom I choose to kiss, lay with, or marry is my business. No one else's. I choose to be humble about my life rather than trying to glorify everything about it. I wish you a good future Dole. And if we meet let me buy ya a meal on me. We need middle ground these days not this one sided tribalistic bomb scene.
The last of us 2 is hated because the internet is full of idiots. Hang on with me, I'm gonna list all the reasons, some valid, others utter irrational bullshit: - Crunch is valid reason for criticism... but on Naughty Dog as a studio. It doesn't have much to do with the actual game content though, unless, of course, it ended up like Cyberpunk did. - Pacing truly is a valid criticism, the game has some things ND games used to have: they got big and impressive setpieces, but not always they're justified for the actual story, the game chapters are a bit longer than they needed to be, however, there're good arguments about how feeling tired of a vengeance narrative can actually contribute to its message, narrative-wise. More or less sound reasons: - claiming the Story structure should put Abbie perspective first, it indeed would make people first impressions about her nicer, but I'd also agree with the developers saying it'd be too easy. Cmon guys, part of the narrative is the conflict between emotion vs reason, we got the emotion from the first game, but we ALSO had reason to understand that Joel screwed up big and was a morally questionable survivor who FULLY ADMITED THAT. Hell, we're even remembered that Tommy knows how to torture because it's was a thing they did, don't pretend they were white-horsed heroes, they werent, but they had a interesting grey morality story anyways. - the claim that Joel Death was dumb. In one hand, it was pretty convenient that the right people were in the right place in the right time, on the other it's a diabolous ex machina for the sake of the game's premise. The story really starts AFTER the consequences of the death, how it happened, while also relevant to us, isn't really important for what the second game was saying. PLUS, Joel being starting to be forgiven by Ellie, having spent a nice time in Jackson without having trust issues AND being put in the middle of a blizzard and infect people hord can be something that makes him need a hand or two. So I wouldn't exactly call it impossible. Now, to the Bullshit reasons to hate the game - "Oh AbBiE, DyNa anD LeV, suCh sjW propAganDa lul". Oh yeah, because showing an all white, male orientended, gender and sex orietantion normative story is TOTALLY not appealing to someone, but when it's anything that DOES exist but doesn't appeal specifically to what you already have plenty is appealing and propaganda, right? If you agree with this shit, just admit you're a hypocrite, doesn't create excuses for being an asshole. "Abbie is unlikeable for what she did". I understand not liking her at first. But even before revealing her past it was ALREADY OBVIOUS to me when she asked "do you remember me?" and Joel didn't remember was a clear sign that Joel, like the previous game already told us, DID PLENTY OF SHIT. I was devasted emotionally for what she did, but Joel doing one right thing for him did meant a lot of wrongs to many other people, so what's the surprise? It was heartbreaking to see Joel and Ellie flashbacks, but it utimately made it that much more interesting that the one person that gave that much love also destroyed and sacrificed the love of everyone else. Plus, hating a character and the writers solely for liking too much another is kind of... being a fanboy? I saw some "suggestions" for a "better" story and they all looked like bad fanfic in that Joel and Ellie went on another survivor adventure, that kinda shows you're more attached to fan feelings than to the very daring writing decisions that made you grow so attached to the story, drama and characters in the first place, why playing it safe? One other thing btw: Abby isn't a bad character per se. A character being good or bad isn't related to "I like her as a person", it's related to being written as if her was real and understandable as a person with its own relationships, flaws, goals, quirks, developments and struggles. She has all that, everybody who denies it are the same weirdos who says Skyler (or even the actress) from Breaking Bad is a "bad character" because she didn't support Walter drug empire, cmon, how stupid can that be? - "the game is the same thing as the first". WRONG Gameplay clearly evolved, even if just a bit from its original formula, there're a developed stealth mechanics, dogs, level design is bigger and we got more routes, weapons and options. I didn't see anyone complain that hard about Uncharted 1-4 changes of its formula. About Graphics, this one ALSO evolved a lot from the first game, as much as God of war 3 to the God of War Reboot. - "it's just a revenge is bad stor--" Oh really? Throwing all nuances, themes, character emotions and desires, moral discussion, everything out of the window and replace is for the most oversimplified strawman superficial-level summary is now a valid constructive criticism? So I can just come and say Breaking Bad is just a "lame being greedy is bad story" and forget about everything else? Give me a break. Give me a example of your favorite and supposedly "complex" top fiction stories and I asure you I can show inconsistencies about your critical sense. Understand little from a story while conveniently ignoring everything else just says you're the one missing something, not that the story. - "the story is predictable, I already saw revenge stories" For however saw and completely gave up on the game because the spoiler leaks from it: ARE YOU TELLING ME SEEING A LIST OF LOOSE PLOTPOINTS IS AS MUCH INTERESTING AND THE SAME THING AS LISTENING TO THE OST, PUTTING YOURSELF IN THE CHARACTER SKIN, CONNECTING THE STORY PIECES, FEELING THE EMOTION OF THE ACTING, ETC ETC? Is it really justifiable for someone to hate the game based on something as silly as a list of spoilers? That's stupid.
You know, one really big problem with the whole message about forgiveness that by the nature of TLU2 as an action videogame, it doesn´t work well at all. In TLOU and TLOU2, as an essential part of the gameplay, you are continuously killing humans, meaning that at the end of TLOU Ellie was already a cold-blooded killer that has killed dozens of people... And that only gets worse during TLOU2, Ellie kill-count reaches the low hundreds of people who had done nothing wrong to her, but suddenly after killing hundreds of "relatively innocent" people she decides to forgive the one she hates the most in the whole world... She is already a mass murderer and killing gets easier so why hesitate at the end? Really that alone creates an extremely unfulfilling ending, it is like if in "Kill Bill" the bride doesn´t kill Bill or if in John Wick John lets the kid who killed his dog live... It may have worked much better in another format in which you, as a player, are not constantly murdering people... In the end, ND managed to inadvertently mix two of the narrative tropes who go the worst together "If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him" and "What Is The Measure Of A Mook" and that alone is would be enough for many people to hate the game.
The game ain’t forgiveness at all. These are just people interpretations. Ellie definitely did not forgive Abby at the end. It’s up to players what they believe the ending means.
I think most people who hated this game understood the whole thing about forgiveness. I just don't care about forgiving Abby or letting go what she did to Joel, I don't think anyone would expect a person to forgive someone to forgive a person who murdered a loved one. If someone killed me in a apocalyptic world, I have no doubt my dad (who's ex military) would hunt that person down. Just like how I would expect him to kill anyone and everyone that tried to harm his family like how they tried with Ellie. Because what kind of dad would let his kid get cut up for a cure that isn't a guarantee? What kinda son would I be if I didn't avenge my dad's death because he saved me? Hence why I don't care about forgiving Abby.
Good video! I personally loved the game. I think the storytelling is good. The first game had a simpler story, this one has a much more complex one. I liked that Abbys story isn’t directly connect to Ellie, it shows that the world is bigger than Joel and Ellie and it does a better job at humanizing Abby than having an arch where we see her working directly against Ellie actions or something. This game is so bold in what it trying to do. It’s a breath of fresh air in comparison to the same shit every other Dev puts out. Could the storytelling be better? Yes! But it’s by no means bad, I love that the story is complex, so deep and requires you to connect the dots, so much more rewarding. But there’s also a personal element to it right? Some people like one way and other not.
Okay so with whatever happened, I think there should be a TLOU 3, as many questions are still unanswered. Also, Naughty Dog said that they have already started working on a new game!
No, there is a agenda in the game. I have no issues with LGBT people, what people do in their bedrooms is no skin off my nose. I have no problem with representation either in anything. But when it is blatantly FORCED onto people is when it becomes a issue. This game does it allot with Ellie and Dina. It's constant in the first part of the game. It's not just a passing thing, it's ham fisted right into you. In the opening with the whole bigot sandwich thing. Then they constantly talk about their love triangle issues while out on patrol and so on. It keeps coming up, over and over and over. We get it, they are gay or bi. BIG DEAL. You don't need to force it down everyone's throat constantly, and that is what the media has been doing. It's constant, over and over and over and over. So yes they ARE pushing an agenda. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
I feel like people complaining about Joel’s death being fast and not a way Joel would go out are just invalid excuses. Cause you have to remember it’s basically a zombie invasion shocking things are gonna happen not everyone can go down in a flame of fire saving a town
I must be in the minority cause I actually felt bad for Abby and hated that last fight scene were your playing as Ellie. I loved the game though and see it's flaws with Joel character but overall I fucking loved the game.
Both the timing of introducing Abby as a playable character and that climax switching are super weird. She should have her own game. I feel like Abby is a real person to me, who ruined her relationship with her boyfriend by pursuing revenge, who is afraid of height, who tells silly jokes. I've invested in her so much. During the final battle, the thought that I had to kill Abby hurts me so much, I even put down my controller to see if the game actually made me(Ellie) kill Abby. But deep down I knew there wasn't a choice, they had a story to tell, all I could do was kept playing. I've never felt so emotionally drained after finishing a game. However, a good story doesn't have to make you feel good. Love your channel and am waiting for your big boss video!
I came to watch a commentary on one of the best pieces of media ive ever experienced. But you've helped me forgive the person who made me think I had a child coming and that that unborn child died. Thank you
While I agree with everything you said in the video. You cant really disregard the agenda argument entirely. Yes some fans focus too much on this for no reason. Theres way more wrong with this game than that. And I have no problem with POC or LGBTQ. What is the Agenda? More inclusion for people who have been left out for a long time? Perfectly fine however, most people who want to push these agendas go too far sometimes which kinda backfires in what they want to do as people can only accept so much at a time. Like anal sex you gotta ease people into something, you cant just go in deep completely dry in a single push. Lesbian MC? Perfectly Fine I usually make those choices in RPGs anyway. Trans Antagonist? Fine, have you seen anime? 5 minute long fully Mocaped gay sex scene(I dont know how long it actually was but it felt like a long time)? Thats just uncomfortable to sit through even for me. Especially when it involves the character I have been hating. Im all for inclusiveness but seriously there is a line.
I don’t remember the last time I was mad about gay representation, and I wasn’t mad this time either. For a while I let others convince me that I should be mad, but now I for sure do not care.
I didn’t get the explanation of disconnection, the narrative depth and structures used were very abstract for gaming. I feel a lot of ppl keep reviewing it from a subjective place, that isn’t getting to the route of Why, the game was structured this way. Maybe we’re used to soo many 2D story structures in games, that a game like this becomes very easy to misinterpret. I’ve watched so many reviews and analysis on this game, maybe I’m being douchey, but after watching girlfriend reviews video, it kinda felt like that was the best one on UA-cam now, no way you can watch that and not have your opinion changed if you’re a person is objective in general. People have been dropping plot holes and flaws in this game, without really explaining why. If the games narrative wasn’t structured this way, conclusions you reached correctly at the end, wouldn’t have been realised. One of the boldest, bravest triple AAA games I’ve ever played, my only fear is that the misconceptions and subjective backlash could put fear into other devs, from feeling brave to tackle subject matters like this The narrative wasn’t lost to me and to many other people, I think it’s best to review it from your perspective compared too the audience in general. Big characters mirrored each other perfectly, and to this day, I’m constantly thinking about this game. This is a game that should be re reviewed by a lot of people. I recommended you watch girlfriend reviews video
Her video states that everyone left wishing the Hulk bitch had died is deranged. Well darling it don't even look like the first games characters sunk into you properly. Fuck outta here
even if it is poorly received its still nice to hear that "hey, this youtuber i enjoy watching and learn from isnt an a hole" when it comes to lgbtq issues, so i say to every lgbtq and ally of im happy that you are and thank you for affirming that now back to listening while jamming crypt of the necromancer!!!
@@ChampionAnalysis *tmw i only realised my typo after a comment came in... crypt of the necrodancer* that being said the greatest crossover in history would probably be dante vibing in a necrodancer level XD
I think Joel is out with Tommy not to work but to clear his head considering the gravity of the situation over just the past 2 days and so yeah Joel wasn't out there surviving but just keeping himself busy with patrols. So I do believe Joel grew soft so-to-speak. We all do. I was in operation enduring freedom aka war in Afghanistan. This is years later now and I'm acting like a citizen and sometimes PTSD I just gotta run off and do my own thing. This game was about obsession and the nightmares that go along with it. As someone suffering their own trauma aka my PTSD I could really connect with the characters. Also yes I would absolutely play an entire last of us game based on Abby
I also believe that Abby's Salt-Lake crew was working undercover and trading coffee to get closer to the people and find their target and a good escape route
It is not shocking that many hate the game. The story was far too complex for most. In my opinion, people who hate this game should really get a grip on reality. This game was intended to be a Fact over Opinion narrative. I would usually just say "Grow up and it will not be so difficult to digest what the game dished out for you" but fact of the matter is that most will not accept the truth of the game because they feel too strongly about their understanding. Or, prefered understanding. This game was never about playing the sweetest tunes, or being narrated in the way that is easiest to understand or made the most sense to those of an average mindset. The selling point of the first game? Story. The basis of the second game? Story... The game was intended to open your mind to viewing the characters, their personalities and actions in the previous game, UNBIASED. If you have not swallowed that pill yet there is no way you will be able to understand, let alone appreciate what comes after. A key theme of this game : Karma. Not the mystical kind you are thinking of. The more scientific transaction of every action having a reaction. Think of it like this. If you are someone that has a habit of messing with others, somwhere down the line you are going to mess with someone who is going to absolutely destroy you. Maybe because they were stronger, or more prepared. Perhaps it was just a matter of circumstance that you got your head smashed in. Fact of life : "There is always someone better" and if there isn't "You can't always win or die in the most noble of ways". Taking into consideration Joel's past actions is it really shocking that he died like a common peasant? No. He did the same to others. It caught up with him. The argument "There is no way he would have fell for that" is rubbish. They were being chased by infected. They were under pressure. They saw an opportunity. They took it. Blew up in their face. Making excuses of methods he could have employed to ensure his survival is just immature. Had The Last of Us 2 been released first and then TLOU which would be called "2" in that instance, as a sequel to allow us to peek into their history, people would not have been complaining as they are now. Their attachments people have developed coulded their judgement...or maybe not. Like I have mentioned, the story was far too complex for most. Mojority of the players are just gamers after all. If you have a history in writing, literature, or story-telling you would have come to find the narrative to be quite impressive and bold. Having that kind of background would allow you to view the story unbiased, which was key above all else, as well as make sense of the forward-back sway of the game's progression. The main theme of the game, forgiveness is difficult to accept for most because it does not sound as "cool" to them as being a savage underdog and surviving. That's their problem. Naughty dog did an amazing job with the narrative. Not overlooking small errors they made and the stupid things they promoted. Maybe the biggest mistake they made was delivering that story via videogame instead of a novel which would handed to more a more capable demographic.
Kinda feels like this comment has the whole elitist mentality and the "if you don't enjoy it, you are too stupid" idea but I could be wrong A)Complexity isn't a definitive good thing Take say Doom Eternal and KH series. Doom is extremely simple and straight to point while KH (despite me actually liking the characters) is extremely unnecessarily complex and confusing for most Just because something is complex doesn't mean it is a good thing. Complex simply put is nice but not needed for a good game B)See I would understand that *If the story itself didn't have a lot of flaws* If you want to make a story driven game, you need your story to land because if you don't your game will not do well enough for a sequel (unless you just got money like that) This game has a lot of flaws some of which make sense some of which don't and that is why so many people don't like TLOU 2 C)Kinda like your name?Hehehe But in all serious your descriptions of the second "Karma" doesn't really hold water since that is more of an "Kill or Be Killed" idea rather than Karma idea D)Except most sane people still see Joel's death as just dumb. No one is asking for a blaze of glory death (at least the sane fans anyways) but people are asking for a death that makes sense for Joel's character. If I had to write his death, it would be to sacrifice his life for Ellie (showing how Ellie became Joel's weakness) or having him face dozens of zombies all alone without anything (but that would be a blaze of glory type death wouldn't it) E)I doubt TLOU series wouldn't have even been that popular since TLOU put story driven games on the map so change the order in which it wa decided and it prob would have ended up like Jax and Daxter, an another forgotten game that Naughty Dog created F)Wow now you are just being an dick here No one needs to have a degree in literature or such to know if a story is good or bad. G)Having a cliche theme isn't bad thing that is something everyone (should) know. It is when it is so cliched that it feels so unnatural that makes a cliche bad. No human will go that as far as Ellie did and turn back thinking everything is fine. That is why it is a bad cliche because it is so unnatural H)Your opnion is that it is good. Mine is that it is bad but hey we all have own opinions
How hard is it to follow the story just because it isn't presented to you linearly? I can't believe any fully functional person has trouble following it. Also, it's presented by flashbacks because Ellie is coming to terms with all that happened with Joel while he is on his revenge plot. The same with Abby. I truly believe people can't digest anything that challenges them or makes them feel uncomfortable and question their assumptions. I thank the developers for not catering to the lowest common denominator player.
I can see the argument for Ellie's multiple flashbacks being representative of Ellie trying to come to terms with how she spent her time with Joel before his end, but the abuse of the storytelling device only leaves people questioning why they didn't just incorporate these events into the regular timeline especially considering the fact that some of these don't even have any meaningful triggers. Ellie playing guitar in the theater alone: a good place to transition into a flashback because the guitar is her link to Joel. Even if I think that specific flashback would be a better opener to the game it was still handled well. I can't say the same for every other flashback because they feel like they're just presented haphazardly. I wouldn't call those that feel this way the lowest common denominator because using flashbacks sparingly is considered a conventional practice for this reason. If they were willingly trying to go against the convention while avoiding this issue then I still think they didn't succeed in it.
I appreciate this review, not only because you touch on the reason that players disliked this game but because you touch on the topic of forgiveness. Anger takes so much energy and I often tell people the reason I forgive is because it helps me move on. You’re not excusing someone’s actions but rather letting go of the pain of that action and choosing to acknowledge that while it happened and you will never forget but you aren’t hung up over it.
Of course anyone has the right to be included and representated. But with agenda means that it's an obligation to have those characters in your game otherwise you get canceled because you're not inclusive. That's what "agenda" means to me when it's forced upon a product to be inclusive. Ellie's and Dinas relationship was so cringe... It felt so robotic and not natural at all, they had 0 chemistry. I wish I could like at least that about this game.
Yeah I've seen others say the same about forced inclusion and I can agree with that sentiment. I criticize stories for making characters that basically are "the _____ one" and just use stereotypes to make up their personality. That stuff gets me just as tight. However, I think some people are often incredibly quick to cry agenda at ANY representation. Like some people set the bar extremely low. I think forced inclusion is when the character is written to have their sexuality/race/ethnicity/etc. to be their only defining character trait. I do not believe that is the case for the main cast of the game. Like I can't look at Dina/Ellie and say "oh they're the gay couple of the story". That literally wouldn't tell you anything about their character/relationship and that's my point. Whether or not we think the relationship had chemistry doesnt matter becaue it wasn't their only defining character trait. There was a good amount of time dedicated to it yes, but that's because the story was trying to show how badly Ellie was fucking up her life with her decisions. You could make it a straight couple and it wouldn't change the focus of the story which is a good thing. One of the ironic things about good representation is that it isn't written to be the central focus. For example, including a gay couple but not writing the plot to be focused on how gay they are and how the fact that they're gay makes them superior or inferior to everything else. THIS is my definition of an agenda and I don't see it here with Ellie and Dina. They are just a couple that happened to be gay. It's treated as something normal by not making a big deal out of it which is literally all that is necessary. People that cry agenda are the ones that make it a bigger deal than it actually is in the story. I'm not saying there aren't cases of forced inclusion in stories, but i dont think the mere presence of these characters is not enough for it to be considered forced 🤷
The way i feel the game should've been was like the way that you said in the beginning of the video where you play as ellie with joel and tommy on the scout mission and then the game continues from there don't get me wrong part 2 is amazing but what i would have changed was Joel's death i see why they done it but it could've been done differently but putting that aside the should've ended with ellie and jj staring at the sunset and santa barbara should've been free dlc where we get to see ellie's journey for the revenge but at the end of the day the exploration, graphics, and gameplay was spectacular but the story was ok also i love your channel and your content and I'm a huge Nero fan keep on doing what your doing👍👍
Or u can abuse the return policy. Finish the game within 7 days and the game store allow u to return and exchange for something else with the same value. Use it too much and u will be on their blacklist tho
I never played TLOU 2 but watching your video the story felt rush. It's like the tv series "The Lost" the telling of the flashbacks(some) and future events messing up the storyline.
Ohhhh. You did a great job on this video. I'm glad I could hear real thought out opinions/critiques on the narrative instead of "HUR DUR, game bad because gay" or "Meh favorite character"
The majority of people didn't seem to understand the game. They did try and do too much with it however in one story. It feels like they couldn't decide which of two games to make so they stuck both stories together in a way that didn't mesh well but both were fine. The way the first game ended it was inevitable the fireflies would come after joel for revenge at some point. Either they came in and killed joel or would try to kidnap ellie and kill dina or joel in their attempt sending ellie off to kill them. Or their encampment would get overrun by infected sending them for new shelter and having them find a sect of the fireflies . There was no happy ending for these characters. That said, they should have kept it as Ellie's story. Or as a twist have the 2nd game be Abby's story and not show who she's getting revenge against until the end and follow up by making the last of is 3 Ellie's revenge story for Joel. I agree the flashbacks went against the tone, but it fits what happens when you're greiving a loved one. Your mind is all over the place and you get bombarded with memories, good and bad, leading to regret over how you treated the person, which is why Ellie let's Abby live in the end, because Joel wouldn't want her to get revenge. He'd done horrible things to the point he didn't want to know who or why they were killing him. That's why he just tells them to get on with it. He accepts it because he knows that while he's not a horrible person, he's done horrible things, and the result of them is why he's about to die. Abby's quest for revenge took everything from her. Her boyfriend went across the country to help her even after he'd left her for someone else, was starting a family with someone else, because he wanted to make her happy and all she did was push everyone away. It consumed her. Then when she tried to redeem herself by helping lev's sister she dies anyway. Then her revenge came back to haunt her when all her friends died, leaving her alone, and the cycle goes on, until Ellie ended it, because someone had to or it would just continue forever.
there is clearly an agenda Neil made a huge speech about it before with Anita Sarkessian's work so its OBVIOUS that it influenced the game Neil even said that Diversity and social agendas are as important as story and graphics when it really isn't its just character traits you can stop putting on high pedestals if you want it to be treated normally. They even pull The last jedi forumla with it like how it seems like all the Women are more capable or more competent than the men for some reason?? you can't say there isn't an agenda when Neil clearly said and admitted there was
Hey. Thank you for your comment. I 100% agree that putting things like sexuality on a high pedestal is not the way to normalize something, but I didnt get that feeling from the story. But I am genuinely interested in Neil's speech you mentioned. Its not something I was aware of when making this video. Do you know where I can find it?
Ftr, death happens abruptly without a bunch of pop and circumstance in real life so they kill a person off like Manny mid-sentence to evoke the reality of death. This was based on a real world death during war, trust me that's war. Having a conversation with someone and a second later they're gone and we must move forward throughout the loss and depression and anger....made me reminisce about many unexpected deaths in my own life. So well done in ky opinion and sure there's some shock value there naturally but that's clearly not the driving force there
I can understand that perspective. It is a grim reality and if that is what the creators were going for then I can understand why its so abrupt. I still think from a storytelling perspective it could at least let those who are alive talk about the deaths or do something that shows this death mattered to the character. They do a great job of that with Joel's death, but I cant say the same for the others. Thank you for sharing your perspective :D
A few points... To me, the story is not strictly about forgiveness nor do I believe that is the prevailing theme of the game. It simplifies the story too much. The player is left to interpret whether Ellie is able to forgive Abby, Joel, and herself. The player needs to decide for themself if they can forgive. Really the story is more convoluted than that. Especially, in regards to the first game. It has various themes presented throughout that weave in-and-out of one another. It expands the messages the first game really only flirted with. The story shows what remains of mankind aka the last of us and how the world is at war with itself. Each town/city we visit contain a cliquey faction(s) that uses violence to push its agenda forward. However, Jackson is what the world could look like if groups welcome outsiders and work with them to a rebuild society instead of destroy what remains of it. This point is aided by the characters. Abby's section is incredibly important. It provides perspective to the groups Ellie dehumanizes and shows us how both she and her faction dehumanizes the Scars. It is an endless cycle. Ellie's revenge quest takes place in a midst of a civil war. Both prove pointless and costly. As an outsider, we see how unproductive this all is but are helpless to make the characters recognize that. We are simply left to watch the chaos unfold and even be forced to be complicit in it. You say the game contains filler, but I'd argue that is more true for the first game. The first game's gameplay felt more like something that had to get done to unlock the story. There was a major disconnect between the story and gameplay in most case. The second has gameplay that furthers the story. I mean, Ellie slowly gets more aggressive throughout each section with her killing animations and comments towards her opponents. Abby and Lev fighting through the burning island around them shows the destruction that results from cyclical violence instead of collaboration. What a crazy experience having their respective groups call Lev and Abby traitors because they refuse to participate in the insanity of each groups misguided agenda. The characters navigate us through this brutal world and are each their own cautionary tale for what happens if they contribute to the deterioration of it. Ultimately, the world of The Last of Us is at war with itself, and the humanity of mankind will be the cost.
-There is no better, more interactive or immersive media to try and get the player to sympathise with the antagonist than a video game. It challenges the player to sympathise with the killer of someone they love. You probably felt the anger and frustration Ellie did. I don't think the game was perfect wit its execution. It definitely had flaws. Mainly the pacing and structuring which could've been improved. Like showing more of the relation and etc. We''re so used to holding up the protagonist who can do no wrong in typical Hollywood films and media and not question their morality. -The biggest challenge for the player wasn't the game but the mental challenge of stepping into Abby's shoes and overcoming your own bias which some were not willing to do. -I feel like most people play games for escapism but I feel like games can also be realistic, immersive, and focus on current-day topics such as Detroit, Life is Strange. It just that most games focus on escapism that when we play an immersive game it feels strange. It's fine for games to inject realism and use relevant and recent topics for something in the movie. Even things like Naruto use Proxy wars as a plot point and has a character do a whole speech on it but because it's set in a fictional world and dealing with topics which are so far removed from the average person it doesn't feel political. Even Star Wars prequel trilogy does this. Because TLOU2 has issue of revenge, Transgender, homosexuality non-typical female action roles, for example, it's rare for females to take the brute role of the group things that set the anti-sjws off because it's a current topic some people felt it was too political and call it a game with an agenda. I believe video games are art and most art has a message if they want to tell one. The game has problems but I think it was fine with how it played out, to be honest. It wasn't what some people want but it told a story that was difficult for players to be invested in. Whe things don't go how you expected it you felt betrayed. But enough about the politics. -But yes Abby's body is attainable by women in real life without steroids. See the model they game model was based on. There are bigger girls in fact that I've seen. If we're going to question body types then Joel shouldn't be as built as he is and more lean. -I feel like people needed to move on. What people expected TLOU2 to just be another Ellie and Joel on another adventure essentially a last of us 1.2 and play the first game again. But people needed to move on. But after what Joel did at the hospital it wasn't gonna happen. Karma was going to catch up and bite his ass. -In regard to how Joel's death happened, I think it was fine for this type of game. People wanted him to have an epic hero's death or fight to the death where he would be honoured by the game because we saw all the things he an Ellie went through in the game. Plus we feel even more connected to the characters because we play and control them we feel more connected. Think of when you die in games you may say something like 'I died' or the game tells you 'you died' No you didn't but it feels more personal. But narratively they way he went out works for this type of game. People in this universe have pathetic deaths just like all the other NPCs you kill. But because we spent the first game with Joel we grew attached to him and as the centre of that universe and some may even see him as the hero but he is not. He's the enemy and trigger of Abby and her arc and in that universe was just like any other character. -They live in a bleak world where's there's not much to live for. Those moments of happiness and family can be so meaningful as it's a breakaway and escape from the hard world which heightens the joy felt by the characters. When you take away that joy what is there really left in the world to distract you from going on a rampage? That's what happened to Abby and then Ellie. Their stories and cycle match up perfectly. -Joel's off screen development in the 5 years has been living a good and happy life which must seem like the complete opposite from the past 25 years he's led. He's grown softer and let his guard down as the world is starting to recuperate a little that groups have now become forming with their own agendas. -When you plan to kill someone you want to restrain effectively so they have no means of escape. Plus it was Tommy's fault for revealing their names. And in this empty world giving them a slow death may make you feel very satisfied rather than shooting them in the head. This is what Abby did. Being beat by a club will never compare to Abby's pain. And with nothing left for Ellie going on a rampage was probably the only means she felt to give closure. However Ellie's journey did her more harm than good. She's left alone, unable to play her guitar, lost her friends, and left off in a worse place. And what Ellie said she feared the most happened. -And with Joel being killed off in such a cheap way made you feel the anger Ellie did. -People in the world are morally grey and so is Ellie, Joel and Abby. It's our own biases which leads to some people forgiving Joel and Ellie but not Abby. - It's why Abby's portion comes after Ellie's, essentially everyone knows 'revenge bad' everyone has heard that before, but they make you play as her after you already hate her, it's basically a challenge for the player to go with an open mind and challenge their own biased perspective of the story. Like, hey we all know what you should do, but right now do you actually want to get to know Abby? And if the answer is no, because she killed my favourite character in a game, then you are falling back on your biased perspective? The game doesn't say you failed, but it does point to the actual difficulties of making the 'right' choice, not that there is a definitive right or wrong, but Abby is the main character of her story. It does it brilliantly when Tommy teaches Ellie how to snipe. But when you are Abby trying to get past the sniper there was probably a moment where you hated Tommy for being so good. -Sudden deaths of named characters that are unimportant to anyone but the viewpoint character, sum up what to my mind is a central issue with the game's haters: they are expecting (and actually demanding with violent threats) storytelling tropes and stereotypes and reacting with anger & frustration when they get something that feels more true to life or has more emotional depth. The fact that many of the important story beats buck some of the standard storytelling tropes, while simultaneously placing women in central, powerful roles, is almost certainly why so many reactionary gamers are trying to link their Anita Sarkeesian obsessions with the game's development. -And no those who want to say the game was saying 'revenge is bad' missed the entire point. This theme of how destructive revenge can be has been told in other media such as Sasuke from Naruto before so the message isn't new. Even if you thought the execution was bad the message isn't bad. It was forgiveness. Effectively, what they actually want is the bad writing, the lazy storytelling devices meant to affirm power fantasies, the expected dramatic cues (which is not what anyone should have realistically been expecting from the Last of Us), and are responding to clever writing--emotionally affecting scenes, the slow but continuous drip of contextual information that sustains tension, impactful viewpoint shifts by rejecting it outright. -It's funny seeing people try to make rewrites of their own story. I've read a bunch of them and it's the same old Ellie and Joel go on an adventure yadayada and Abby is there or something but doesn't kill Joel and Abby helps the duo with her Father or something. No risk, nothing new. I feel like what most people wanted TLOU2 to be was Joel and Ellie going on another adventure basically 1.2. But that wasn't going to happen after what Joel happened at the hospital. Karma was going to catch up and bite his ass eventually. People needed to move on from Joel just like Ellie did. The player needed to overcome their own expectations and bias which resulted in tribalism just like Abby and Ellie did.
I can't care for the WLF that Ellie kills during her story. All the enemies killed are done in self-defense with the WLF being the aggressors. They try to shoot and torture Ellie, and did succeed in blowing up her horse. That's before gamers find out how they became authoritarian overlords over Seattle, executing civilians for small things such as taking umbrage with orders or graffiti. During Abby's story, we see them torture others for information and pleasure, dehumanize kids and engage in a genocidal war of extermination. The only WLF members I had some sympathy for are the ones who ambush Ellie at an upgrade bench because they were running away from Isaac and mistook Ellie for a WLF member.
I applaud them for having the balls to kill of their protagonist from the prequel however everything else was handled poorly afterwards. I feel Abby's 'reasons' for torturing and then killing Joel was too weak in the eyes of the audience. I mean I get it, Abby was probably fed some kind of 'lies' regarding Joel and acted upon vengeance which is all okay. Playing as her and 'understanding' her view point is all all okay. We as the audience knew that Abby's dad wasn't a 'good' guy. His whole plan was on shaky grounds and the life lost would have been an innocent child. We know that but Abby didn't so while we can give her 'actions' a pass at the start, we can't get over Ellie's action at the end. A story's 'worth' is most times determined by how it ends. It may have a great run but the ending can make or break it for most people and for my Ellie's 180 degree turn at the end made no sense. She KNEW that Joel did what he did for love and then she SAW him not just getting killed by getting tortured and killed brutally. She went on a journey, albeit regretting it, killing 'innocent' people to get to Abby and stop at the end with Abby who isn't 'innocent'. Vengeance and Forgiveness has been handled before together in a single story many times and this game is an example of what not to do. Ellie's realization came too late and by then the audience/user/gamer wanted blood and then got nothing. I feel most of this could have been avoided by simply having 2 endings by giving the audience/user/gamer the POWER to choose between killing or sparing her. That is what they failed in, in my opinion.
The reality is that, no matter how hard you try, it is difficult(not impossible) for a romantic relationship(Ellie and Dina) or a sibling relationship(Abby and Lev) to beat a parent/child relationship, especially with what Joel and Ellie had in the first game. Then the introduction of Abby and what the game wants the audience to feel about her is out of touch with reality, literally wanting people to like a person who would cheapshot/backstab a person that just save her ass just because the man is a killer of her father, which is not how likable people operate in stories or real life. You either go full villain mode with Abby, and let the player hate her and have her killed with no gameplay time for Abby, or you make Abby a consistently honorable person if you want the audience to like her. Subverting expectations does not mean nonsense, you still maintain common sense while you try to surprise your audiences. Had the sequel been more consistent in storytelling with the first game, it would have been a perfect game. Sadly the storytelling just killed the game too hard, wasting all the great work the game had in every either aspects (including the motion captures and voice acting).
A well made video! I have an idea and also part a request. You did a video about Aang and Katara's parenting and how it effected their kids. So I challenge you to do the same video about Sparda and Eve and how they parented Dante and Vergil. It is clear that both influenced their children. After all, both try to live up to the legacy of the Legendary Dark Knight, in their own way, while still remembering the love of their mother, also in their own way. I would like to see the video that expands upon that, if you can.
I feel like it would have been better to have 2 15 hour games, with the Ellie forgiving Joel arc and the revenge arc being self contained stories. It would have reduced the need for flashbacks as the Ellie forgiving Joel arc could take care of all that and it could end just before or after Joel dies as a nice cliffhanger. This then gives a full 15 hours in the second game to emphasise with Abbey and her group. Both games would then be very focused like the first game and explore their themes of forgiveness and hate fully and in chronological order.
No offense champ but do you need the description to remind you of what your first words are also in all honesty I'll rate the game when I get ahold of it and play it honestly my thoughts are on the game as of this moment are is it fun to play and that's all I really don't care about people being gay I have better things to worry about I just don't like that every time someone brings up as a gay character most of the time it's used as a shield (example) I don't like X then you're homophobic I don't like x i don't mind gay people my best man is gay and he doesn't like it either what does that make him then?
The story is told in a dramatic way rather than an epic way that you purpose. I preferred the dramatic way, though the pacing was indeed suffering a few times with too many flashbacks in a short time.
I skipped out on this game after the leaks. Maybe wait until it went down in price. But looked up more information and reviews of differing opinions. So I may look at a let's play. It's a story-driven game. So the story is more centre stage. Not the gameplay. After watching your video though. (Great work by the way. I'm not being sarcastic.) I think that it would have been better to save the Abby stuff for part three. Maybe have the game focused on Joel and Ellie more as she finds out the truth. And them mending a fractured father-daughter relationship. Also, I am pretty sure there were other ways to extract the fungus from Ellie. Without cutting her brain up. I'm no doctor or medical scientist. But that seemed a little iffy to me. Especially since it was not guaranteed to be a viable vaccine. I am basing this of more real-world science. Since viruses and fungi are not one and the same. As far as I know, there are currently no vaccines to fungal infections. Several candidates are in the preclinical stage of development and two vaccines against Candida spp. (I just googled that last part.) As for Abby. I think that her appearance is more cartoony and ridiculous to look at. Not to mention another reason I can't feel sorry for her, is simply because her backstory seems rushed and forced. It would have been more impactful if she had a connection to David or Marlene. Not to mention she is living quite the privileged life in the zombie apocalypse. She has spacious and well-kept living quarters, with various reading material, a wealth of food, and a gym. The story narrative seems to try and manipulate the player into liking her. Which only serves to fuel contempt. She should have been saved for part three. Maybe even have Joel's death in that game as a misunderstanding. Like Abby is seen over his body. Maybe someone filled Tommy's head with garbage about Abby. Then have Abby's portion of the game focused on proving her innocence. But, while I want to write a novel. I'm not close to being ready yet. I'm not a professional writer.
Thankful you decided to try something new and went way more in depth on the topic beside Bricky on Last of Us 2. Honestly not a DMC fan which is why I barley clicked those videos. Make sure next time while editing I know to tell the viewers that YOU MIGHT SPOIL the game parts to explain in a Review. This is just for those who see reviews and don't want to be spoiled about it. Mandaloregaming review games can show what I mean. Give fair warning to viewers next time.
Yeah, I've been doing the Retrospectives on DMC first because those are my most viewed videos, but I definitely have more stuff planned beyond that series. I'll also try to be more explicitly with spoiler warnings too.
Not upset that the game features gay characters, just upset that the game features unlikable characters. Ellie's girlfriend(whose name I don't even remember) was really dull and uninteresting. I would've rather had Jesse as an AI partner because he was actually funnier.
Although I totally disagree with your comments on the narrative structure, I am very glad you pointed out, that this isn't at it's core about revenge. Too many reviews just don't geht this. I think The Last Of Us, Part II is in a way like The Godfather, Part II: Much more complex, heavier and deeper than it's predecessor. Confusing by the time of it's release, but worshipped in retrospect.
Not gonna lie, you reviewed and analyzed the game better than anyone, and if I may share my opinions, this game would've been better but the biggest problem was that the characters were handled poorly. The story often trolled you with flashbacks after flashbacks, I knew Joel would die judging from the game's setting and environment (it's a post-apocalyptic world - anything can happen) but his death was disrespectful and offending to longtime fans of the previous game, still though, it could've been better. Great explanation about forgiveness, and sadly most people think forgiveness is for weak and gullible individuals but it's not, mentally that is. And lastly, I too loved Uncharted 4 but with Neil Druckmann's misbehaviour and rude response to the fans hating the game, he somehow failed in making me say "okay, maybe we'll give him a chance if he ever planned on developing a third game" but I guess time will tell.
as much as I'm glad I didn't like the games with how the sequel came out, I really feel bad for the fans, they deserved a better story. And the actors working on the characters did such a phenomenal job too. and thank you for laying out the whole thing in such a cohesive manner, I feel like I finally understand the game and the intended story.
Also, TLOU2 is one of those games where a single specific plot, character or a segment HAS to work and resonate with the players, otherwise the entire game won't work. Here it's Abby's story and segment, that 10 hours journey with her & The game developpers trying to get me to like her didn't work at all for me and thus the entire story didn't. I don't like Abby, I don't feel anything for her, so the entire conflict of ''Abby is actually a good person at heart and Ellie is maybe going too far, Should you really kill her?" simply didn't work, because idgaf about Abby and I want to kill her . Making Abby pet a dog, while giving me as Ellie no choice but to kill it won't change anything simply because : The game didn't give me a choice, and it's trying to manipulate me into caring for Abby.
TLOU2 relied so much on one character, they risked it all with Abby and that's a brave thing to do, but also if you don't start caring about her story, the game and its conflict won't work.
See, I think part of it was the trailers too. We saw NOTHING about Abby, and they actively told people that they Ellie was the only character you’d play as. I also only had a month of build up (I played the first recently) versus the 7 years many had. I also saw no spoilers, so it DID work for me. But I also know how incredibly fucking frustrating it is for long time fans.
If you can't bring yourself to forgive a virtual fiction character...
If you didn't care for Abby after all what the devs showed about her, her origins, her motives, her losses and her "redemption" with Lev... It was NOT cuz the game "failed" or "didn"t give you a choice". It was because "YOU" decided to NOT care. You didn't want to "know" anything about Abby and you were driven by hate for her for killing Joel, even if her act was "justified" in her eyes. The fact that she spared Ellie "TWICE" is enough for me to see that she's just as Ellie, wanted revenge for the murder of her father. Joel is no hero for the world. Joel didn't do anything noble, even he, himself admits that in the start of the game, to Tommy. He knew that what he did will comeback and haunt him. Everyone in TLOU world is an "Abby" of an "Ellie" or a "Joel" for an "Abby". Just as everyone is a "Joel" for "Ellie".
Ellie isn't a "good" person either, in fact, there is no pure evil or pure bad. We knew Joel and Ellie very well, we got attached to them. I was furious when Abby killed Joel even when he saved her life. But I respected her when she spared Ellie and Tommy right there, and let them live cuz they weren't part of it. Turns out it was a huge mistake she made, as Ellie killed everyone she cared for. Abby had the right to kill Ellie when they fought, but her personality changed after she met Lev and his sister, and she became his "Joel" and she spared both Ellie and Dina "again". It's in those moments you see the true nature of a person. If she can forgive and move on. Abby didn't find satisfaction after killing Joel, but found it when she saved Lev and spared Ellie.
Ellie couldn't let go and it cost her everything in the end. BUT she gained her humanity back, she let Abby go to take care of Lev, Abby didn't even want to fight her, she was forced by Ellie. But the moment Ellie spared Abby, she won the war, stopped the cycle and moved on, forgiving Joel and letting him go.
And there's you.... Enable to see the good in the bad. Chosing to not care about Abby, even after all you knew about her.
This game, what the devs did, DID work. They made you feel the hate, and gave you the choice to "forgive" or not. You chose not to. It was the point. To show how far us, humains can go when driven by hate.
Then you didnt understand. You see, abby " adopted" lev, like joel adopted ellie. Killing her means she was right by killing joel
@@aminedbgt Sorry but that is pure bullshit...
If a creator writes any kind of fiction that has the objective of causing a certain reaction to the audience and he utterly fails to achieve that reaction in a major part of the audience, the one at fault is EXCLUSIVELY the creator and not the audience...
Hell, when a comedian does a monologue and that bores half of his audience, the one that the critics blame is the comedian, no? This is the same thing, ND's objective was to make the audience care about Abby and if they failed to achieve it with a good portion of the audience it's their fault, and that is final.
@@machacasaurius simply the game wasn't made to please everyone. They said it was gonna upset a lot of the first game's fans. Either ways, the achieved their goal. Make you hate the game, or love it. Hate Abby or love her, forgive her or not.
And anyways the game did very, very well on sales and is one of the best Sony exclusives of all times. People are gonna jump on Part 3 if and when it comes regardless of what they thought about Part 2.
I personally loved the game, the story, the characters. It's far from perfect of course, but it's one special kind of a game and that's exactly what Naughty dog wanted to do. They had a vision, a story to tell, and they took the risk of pissing a lot of their fan base, yet they did it anyways and I respect them for that.
I just hate the crunch it took to make this game. Will respect story it tried to tell but I can't respect what it took to make it.
I am not impressed by the plot, nor the core narrative being forgiveness, or "the cycle of hatred".
But this video is great.
I'm just going to state my opinion here.
For a (technically) first ever review I've seen from you, you absolutely nail everything a good review needs. Unbiased, informative, listening friendly, thoughtful and a pretty good level of uniqueness to it. If you were doing this thinking it would be a one off, you did really well but if you actually wanted to branch out into these more often I think you could have a whole new world of content you could explore if you wanted to.
Gg man, gg
I don't get the whole "LGBT Agenda" issue, if Ellie was already stablished as gay since TLoU's DLC
Druckmann being outspoken in support of a certain activist, his work was bound to come under intense scrutiny
@@archangel6749 Anita Sarkeesian isn't lgbt tho
@@malasc12 She speaks for it. Like damn....have you people even listened to one of their horrid streams? Many of the men are gay.
The graphics, the mechanics, the animations and the weapons, made the game interesting. I love the aggressive stealth gameplay.
The reason why Abby's portion of the story didn't feel built up to her interaction with Ellie is because she didn't even realize that Ellie was coming after her. She thought everything she had done to them in Jackson was done. But just like Joel's story arc in part 1 her past caught up to her. So it is not forced and this is not a good point (20:25).
From a storytelling perspective, why not have more about Ellie and Abby in Abby’s section? Then it wouldn’t feel so disconnected and boring.
Idk I've always liked it when the bad guy doesn't even know people are after them.
Same thing with how joel dies. He had no idea who abby was or that she was even coming after him.
Brandon Pick actually he knew he did something bad: killing almost everyone in the hospital to save ellie. He mentioned it with Tommy in the first few mins. If he is awared about it, ofc someone will go after him. He even killed merlene, firefly queen, at the end to stop them going after ellie. One more thing, Abby has no idea about joel and ellie. First, she only knew the name Joel. If i remember correctly, Joel never tell anyone his whole name Joel Miller in the first game. Going after someone based on the name Joel only is hard. Not to mention that she never meet Joel before. The evidence is that Abby only know how Joel look like is when Tommy introduce their names (not even surname). She may know Joel reside in Jackson but how do u know that u get the right one. Furthermore, the whole game’s central theme about vengeance is bad yet it feel really biased. While Abby lost her friends, she got someone to care for in the end while Ellie has nothing left. Both experienced PTSD to drive their ambition. Abby follow through but Ellie didnt. Theres more thing to write about but i feel stupid for writing an essay in yt comment so i end here. Thanks for reading
Darion Tate I feel like Abby needs a DLC rebooted story for her
@@akiramurakami3177 I truly felt bad Ellie didn't kill her and still lost everything again
Honestly, you don't need to be a story teller to know how bad story structure can be when it's get thrown in your face at random. I didn't play the game but since its a narrative focus game, I can watch it on UA-cam and know what's what. It's not that hard to understand and you don't need a English Degree to understand this messy story The Last of Us 2 displayed before us.
This game is just crushing. I loved it, but I empathize with the fans who were disappointed. I know I wouldn’t feel nearly as much love to this game if I played the first so long ago and saw all those garbage, misleading trailers. I didn’t have that, I played the first a month ago and didn’t see any trailers. So I think that’s a large part of the divide. Longtime fans were given a product different from what they were promised. I think the future will look more fondly on this game, but the hate is pretty deserved. There are flaws, I’d never deny that, but this game is really special to my heart.
It’s a good thing I never played The Last of Us 2, because I have no interest in it.
I honestly don't have much interest in playing it again. Which is a shame cause I love replaying the first game.
Ok
Champion Analysis Hey man you do you, that’s all we can do at this point
I myself am not a fan of Naughty Dog's recent titles(Uncharted and Last of Us), as I am more of a Crash Bandicoot and Jak and Daxter guy.
But hey, I don't expend all of my energy talking about not liking them.
@@azazel166 I'm still holding some hope that Jak and Daxter will return. I played that series to death as a kid. Im not sure if it would have the same atmosphere considering The Last of Us started off as a sequel to Jak and Daxter.
Dude I honestly forgot half of characters names. Ellie was just going through them like butter and I was like wait what was that person's name again. 😂 I realize now that it was faulty story telling that caused that and it wasn't just me.
I only remembered Manny cause his character trait was saying "pendejo".
@@ChampionAnalysis I remember Manny, Nora, and Mel. I only remember Mel because she's pregnant. Then the guy at the beginning who got cut by Ellie's knife I call scar face guy.😂
Because the story is Awful 😑
Lol I hear you and I talk about flaws with the story to further explain that 👍
That's ur opinion
@@stone_chiu2247 that is true 🙂
@@Mojavekight17 im with you story was shit i didnt even finished it
@@Mojavekight17 to you 😊 i see and understand this guys opinions on what he views as flaws in the game because he describes it, and therefore i can respect his view while still viewing it differently.
When you reduce your feelings and opinions to simple "factual" statement, you dismiss the existence of other opinions in a way that only incentivises a war of "no i'm right so you're wrong" rather than the more critical "you make some great points, heres my take; hey isn't it cool we both got two completely different yet valid experiences from this and hearing each others opinion could potentially make both opinions evolve?"
It's finally done!! My people. If I ever get the idea of making another 30+ minute video, just shoot me.
There would be only two types of videos I would want from you.
1. Anoth SMT analysis, persona or otherwise if you have played any of the other titles.
2. Character study on Travis Touchdown from no more heroes, to prep people for when III arrives.
But even if neither are possible you just keep doing what your doing. Respect your content and trust your instincts as a creator overall. So take a break after this if you need it.
Yes its agenda because the fucking game is focusing on people sexual orientations and genders like if it's more important than the fucking zombie apocalypse itself .. the writer make you feel like the whole lev story is just thrown out of no where just to shove gender issues and random presentation like if it just happens that the protagonist or antagonist or some character to be from LGBTQ jsbsnaa not being shoved at our throats nobody would care brah
The reason people complain about the gay agenda is not because of representation but because of what is said in politics against white and straight people on the news. People get so tired of being attacked with messages bigotry masked as social justice. Like insulting white and straight people is ok but not the other way around. It’s not homophobia but political fatigue.
I felt disappointed by the game, but have been having a hard time putting together the concise reasons as to why I felt so. In my opinion, you have given the best in-depth analysis and explanation of the game's story and why it failed for many. Amazing man!
But i like your long vids bro :]
Actually Tommy introduced himself and Joel with name to Abby when they met.
Then it is also showed in the loggers that Jackson hadn’t had problems with bandits for a long time, and all the interactions with outsiders is helping them and trading with them.
You can also see that Joel was not comfortable in the situation when he entered the room with all the people, and Tommy wanted them all to go back to Jackson with them.
Maybe not perfect writing, but it is not hard to believe that someone after years in Jackson, after probably introducing themselves with name countless times would make a mistake.
The most important one for me is their copyright abuse, false marketing and hostile insults to not just disappointed players but pretty much everyone. Screw what’s actually in the game especially when they clearly didn’t follow their own message, they don’t deserve a cent for that.
We need a “integrity agenda” because the corporatists across the world have sure forgotten about it.
You know the funny thing is that they could have done the story of how revenge will get you nowhere with Abby.I mean she was the one who wanted to have revenge.Why not have her meet ellie in the middle of the game.And learn more about joel through.You know her finding out how joel lost her daughter.And why joel had to save ellie.I mean i liked abby.I think she was a really interesting character.It just sucks that she wasn't handled so well
Hmmm...You do have a point
This video was really well done, I appreciate that you actually addressed each main flaw in detail that people would point out about the game. The story had a lot of flaws in it and it really sucks that there are a lot of little details in the game that are overlooked because the game is considered to be bad overall to many.
I'm going to be honest here guys once I got to the part with Abby's flashback I couldn't play anymore. Up until that point I wanted to give it a chance because I loved the 1st game so much but after that I just couldn't. To me it was just put together poorly and I wasn't going to keep playing a game that made me feel like I wasted my time and money.
I don't like the game because I don't like the story, that's it, the characters also don't feel like themselves & the new ones are all uninteresting. The game is so depressing and leaves you feeling so empty, to the point where I had to ask myself : "What was the point of playing that game?" Can you answer that? Learning that revenge is bad? Well, no shit, we have many different games and other medias who portray that message way better than TLOU2.
It's not because it has LGBT characters or that bs, I LOVED the first game's dlc and it had a LGBT relationship between two girls as its main driving relationship. I just don't like the story, simple, so please stop trying to turn valid criticisms into agendas and political stuff.
I appreciate your view on the game. You played it and came to your own conclusion. I loved TLOU, TLOU2, & I am praying for a TLOU3. As a casual gamer I think the game is a 10. I loved the first TLOU and Joel/Ellie's story, however, I felt killing Joel had to happen after Joel killed the Fireflies and Marlene. I was pleased with Abby/Lev and I hope to see more of them. I was shocked to actually be pissed at Tommy who I liked a lot especially in the first game. When he killed Manny though...that really pissed me off. My only complaint is Abby didn't appear to grieve more after she discovered that he friends were dead. I liked WLF Salt Lake City Crew.
The game is trying to be miserable and sad it glorifies it and overuses this effectively characters act differently from their established personas (ellie is incredibly violent way beyond any sense of good meaning, Joel lets his guard down and get murdered off the spot) it supposed to make you feel miserable and depressed, and its objective is to bring you a miserable story and make you depressed....
in TLOU1 darkness and gloominess was used as an atmosphere, aesthetic. But not rampantly....it was used to point a finger in the direction of light and hope, to see why people continue to struggle against overwhelming so effectively and in some cases why they're even successful you wanted to see everyone succeed and be happy in the end.
in this TLOU2 everything is so depressing that you become desensitized to it among the issues that come along with it, it honestly just leaves me disappointed...
@@SheanWalsh46 you can play through the game without having to kill most of the human npc's. Most of the killing is a player choice.
So, about the LGBTQ stuff, it doesn't annoy me that they're in the game. It annoys me that they hamfist it into a lot of media, NOTE this game is ok with it. We don't want gay trans etc characters, we want GOOD characters who HAPPEN to be those things. A lot of people who are grouped with the "agenda" crowd think about it in this way and don't know how to properly express themselves. However they do get drowned out by the people who just say it's literally just so they can further their "agenda" and thus get lumped into the crowd.
About the video, you touch on some excellent points, I agree with the pacing issue 100%, you go on to mention that the story is about forgiveness or rather should have been but it gets buried under the awful pacing and story decisions, to this I can only say "Finally someone sees it". Abby was a horribly mishandled character within this story, the idea is bold as you state, but it's obvious that she needed much more time and she needed to be written in a much better fashion, holding off on the details here since I might make a video about it myself. Joel's death is a kicker as well, it feels like the writers just decided to kill him and never put any thought into how to do it, so they come up with an overly elaborate death scene, it would've been MUCH simpler to have had Abby or someone else SEE Joel previously and just have them ambush and kill him, Joel no longer breaks character you can have your emotion when Ellie finds the corpse and you can have your revenge plot anyway by sprinkling some investigation as well.
Finally,
I want to congratulate you on a fantasticly well put together video hope to have given some food for thought to some people, and as always I'm looking forward to watching the next one! Thanks for making such entertaining videos!
yup
It's only you who only see gay and trans in the characters
There it is smh 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
@WinterburnVideos
Great comment.
@@TheTariqibnziyad Its time for you to go bro. If you can't read this comment and actually get to the point he is trying to make, you really should just sign off.
While I don't really agree on the agenda part, at least you offered a honest opinion on the matter. The rest of this was really good. A great analysis and anticulation of thoughts on the game. I will say this though, in the game's defense, the writers did a really good job in what they were trying to convey (similarly to the situation with Ardyn Izuna) and the emotions they wanted people to feel. I just think they dropped the ball with the ending.
When you said that the flashbacks should have been the beginning of the story with Ellie, I jumped out of my chair and screamed "fucking facts" and woke my uncle up. But I agree with the points you made with the video, they was strong and actually made me like the game more than I already did.
They wouldn't carry the same weight if they were placed at the beginning. The flashbacks were intentionally supposed to be a bittersweet experience for the player. One, you were overjoyed to be spending time with Ellie and Joel again. Two, you were saddened with the reality that this is fleeting. Each flashback shows the increased divide between Joel and Ellie's relationship. It also adds more complexity to Ellie's motivation for exacting revenge when you learn she knew about Joel's deception all along. This game is incredible, man. Crazy good!
MAJOR I’m glad to see some one gets it. If they didn’t place in the beginning then the entire point of the game is lost. I feel naughty dog wanted to challenge us, to see if we can show sympathy for someone we are suppose to hate. It just wouldn’t t have the same impact if killed during the half way point.
@@pokemonrocks43 exactly
No they shouldn't. The flashbacks are a nice change from the dark story and gameplay. None of the flashbacks would hit as hard if we didn't know Joel was dead.
@@pulpficti ay man that's just how I feel
I don't claim that there is an agenda because the has a character that is not either male and/or straight, and/or white for the same reasons I don't claim that a game that has a male, straight, white character to be racist and so on.
You have issues if all you see in people are labels. Not syaing they don't matter but there are others things to consider about an individual rather than a single block that is answered by one or two words.
From point of view, what we have seen in tlou2 had to be in in tlou3. Tlou2 should have been based all on Abby's story because what we had about her until the reason of the start of here revenge, was shown a little (just one or two flashbacks before the main trigger). That's why people didn't care about Abby, because there had no strong background story of here & her father like we had with Ely & Joel, we only got the consequences, not origins, that's why people didn't establish emotion connection to Abby. On the paper it looks good, you show 2 girls with similar tragedy interconnected by the events & demonstrate the tragedy of vengeance with the possibility to understand each side doing terrible things, but in practice, we only saw one of the girls tragedy with enough time to understand so we can empathize with (just imagine if 1sr tlou being told the way it did but with Aby & her father instead - non would critique her).
I'm not against LGBT representation in media. I'm against a lazy representation of them to score "points" on social media. I haven't bought the game because Ellie is gay - she's herself and it's cool. What's not cool is how her and other characters got their character reduced to literal idiots (Joel & Ellie for example). Joel dies like an idiot, Ellie kills a ton of people, including a pregnant woman, to get to Abbie and she ends up not killing her. Wtf. As for Abbie - she's not trans, but if Naughty Dog wouldn't clarify, more people would say she is - and I don't blame them. Hell, they even banned a twitch streamer who said "I don't wanna play as this trans". You can get buff, but not as buff, especially during apocalypse where you have limited amount of food and not that much time to start working out and I belive the original plan for this character was that she was supposed to be a trans character, but due to 2020 and people recognizing bad characters for social media points, they back peddaled & hoped it's gonna save the character for some reason. But it didn't. Nothing in the game makes people feel bad for Abbie, she's completley meaningless. Just like the whole story.
This
ABBY IS NOT TRANS LEV IS TRANS
Gameplay should always be king and this game is almost perfect, is the story and narrative that suffers, and since I don't care about that crap in a 3rd PERSON SHOOTER this game was pretty solid.
The gay agenda? that wasn't offensive at all since The first game has Gay DLC anyway, so I don't know why people were surprised besides The Simpsons did the gay joke and representation in the 90s in one of the best episodes of the whole series.
What was the point? There was none, simple as that, not everything needs to have a point, it was fun, had not many bugs if any, and was a massive improvement, people are just bitching about the story and narrative and pacing, but many games of today focus way too much in dumb stories and narrative and gameplay are starting to get shafted, thanks for Super Gigant and Capcom that still make fun games (Except Resident evil 3, that game sucked) I guess that's why I liked LOUS2 so much because I came from playing RE3 and filled super disappointed.
Just Play NIOH 2, DOOM ETERNAL, AND HADES PEOPLE, Never play Any Naughtydog game again ( Is not I have like them since they stopped making Crash games at the very end of the 90s.)
I agree that the game is really fun to play. Cranking that difficulty to Survivor or Grounded makes it a thrilling fight for survival. I think a person's enjoyment of the game comes down to what they value these days from a game too. I personally enjoy a good narrative so it can affect how much I like the game. Especially if it's a big part of the game. For example, I don't like Abby and I absolutely hate her friends. Owen is such a fuckboy that it hurts. So even though I sometimes get the urge to replay this game, I remember that Abby and her friends are half of it and suddenly I'm not as motivated to anymore. I'll fucking replay Uncharted 4 for the 15th time no problem though lol I hope I can enjoy their next project more (w.e it may be). I don't hate Naughty Dog for this one game. They still gave us Uncharted, one of my absolute favorite series of games.
The reason people complain about the gay agenda is not because of representation but because of what is said in politics against white and straight people on the news. People get so tired of being attacked with messages bigotry masked as social justice. Like insulting white and straight people is ok but not the other way around. It’s not homophobia but political fatigue.
There’s not much gameplay. Just so many cinematic. It drags. It pissed me off. The game is very detail and everything like that but going on the horse and walking through the wood as playing as Abby when she was 15 just drags. There’s not much gameplay. Ellie was strong and loyal she will kill anyone just for Joel. I preorder the game. Where I was playing as Abby and trying to kill Ellie, I just kept Ellie to kill me. I had about 50 deaths and then I just carried on and then found out Ellie lost. I absolutely went metal that she lost and broke her arm. I absolutely deleted the game and gave up. I didn’t continue after that. I can’t see that happening. Ellie would bang Abby no doubt. I’m not accepting that Ellie got banged and Joel death was for nothing.
So your entire argument is if you don't like The Last of Us 2 you're a bigot. Okay good luck with that
Lol Yeah man. That's my whole argument. Totally didn't dedicate over 20 minutes criticizing the game for its flaws with the story telling.
Big brain gamer right here.
@@ChampionAnalysis it's the same disingenuous argument Neil drunkmann made on his Instagram. I watched the entire video. Why did Metacritic need to delete thousands upon thousands of negative reviews? The franchise is over who will buy a game starring a Abby? Neil need your support now more than ever.
@@breadchips4803 are you mad because the game flopped?
@@henrytownshed5304 My argument was never that people who dislike the game are bigoted. My argument was anyone who cries agenda is making a pointless argument for the quality of the game and that pointless argument is, at the very least, rooted in an uncomfortable reaction to seeing lgbtq people in the game. The game has plenty of flaws that merit the criticisms thrown at it. An agenda isn't one of them. If you really saw my whole video then you wouldn't have had this response to it. I agree that it is a disingenuous argument to claim that people who don't like the game are bigoted. However, thats not the argument I made.
The game is a narrative mess that starts the game with the antagonist and then later forced protagonist committing an narratively irredeemable act. If Abby's character had been fleshed out, flip flopping between her early life and Ellie's life in the first half of the game, her actions could have atleast been justified. However as has been proven, showing a character's justification for a crime long after it has been committed does not save the opinion of the character from the collective hate of the masses. The number of people I have seen complaining about the game's supposed LGBT agenda is so infinitesimally small one could be mistaken in believing the opinion doesn't exist at all. The number of people I see complain about this game's narrative decisions when looking at things like character motivations/actions in comparison is the majority of the game's critique. Some will even try to say that Ellie letting Abby go was justified. However I would wager that it wasn't, not because of my personal feelings for the character, but because up until this point I haven't been given a single reason to forgive Abby. And if I, the player who has only known the character Joel for a collective 18 hours, can't forgive Abby. Than odds are that a character like Ellie who spent years with Joel, killed dozens if not hundreds of people in her quest for vengeance, and traveled 1000 miles on foot in order to find Abby, wouldn't forgive her either. Oh and lets not forget that at the exact moment Ellie decides to let Abby go, Ellie has a flashback to the night she decides to start the journey of forgiveness with Joel. A memory that would have only roused rage in Ellie with the reminder that the very next day, Abby murdered the only father figure she has ever had. Which in turn reminds the player of their justified hatred of an irredeemable character. A horrifically designed journey, with an even worse punchline, I.E. a bad joke.
What you said about that memory she has with Joel, she was fueled by rage the entire game. The same way her final moments with Joel were because of him finally admitting what he did in the first game.
The thing with that memory, is that it reminded her she can let it go, and try to move on. A lesson she learned and wanted to try out with him
I'm sorry dude but this game is agenda pushing, all you have to do is look at how Abby's built, it's not hard to see. The whole gay stuff, I don't care about as in I could take it or leave it so long as it's not portrayed as a focal point in a story that has not a thing to do with being gay.
This story is not about forgiveness, I can list many reasons as to why but I'm going to start off with this question, where were Ellie's moments of clarity that would then lead up to Ellie's decision to let Abby live? There are no moments of hesitation, no moments of questioning herself, Ellie did not once struggle with thoughts between letting Abby live or putting her down, the answer is clear and that answer is "death to Abby" because that's what the narrative saying throughout the game, I mean you go from plot point to plot point trying to find her and Ellie show's no hesitation in the process. There's no development for that decision to be made so therefore does not fit the narrative.
being a gay person is a fundamentally different day to day experience than being a straight person. so yes, gayness impacts plot. always.
@@5345-i1t No, it doesn't because that's not what the plot is about, straight or gay...the plot of the story doesn't change, it effects nothing.
Edit: This is a post apocalyptic world, so try not to compare it to the day to day experience of the world you're living in now because it doesn't matter.
I really dislike this genre of "movie games", I hope this is the last big one. Games should be games, not second rate Hollywood stories
do you also dislike tlou part 1?
because thats a move game too
@@Habertod yeah I dislike it. The gameplay wasn't engaging, I only made it about 3 hours in before I gave up
@@salsamancer fair point. i can respect that.
@@salsamancer Then don't play them. It's that simple. There are movie games, driving games, hardcore action games, horror games, classic 2d games, sports games, as well as fitness games. Why should they stop making one specific genre of games simply because YOU don't like it? I don't like some of the other genres I just mentioned, but that doesn't mean I want them ruined for others who do like them.
Also, NO ONE liked TLOU1 for it's gameplay. It was the immersion, breathtaking visuals and artstyle, music, a story with amazingly well developed characters, with great dialogue, and Oscar worthy performances that puts most modern movies to shame.
I know why people didnt really fw TLOUP2 but I still really liked the game. Idk maybe I'm way too much of a glass half full kinda guy.
To me, having gay or black characters is perfectly fine, so long as it actually fits in with the story. Having gay characters in the last of us makes sense, seeing as how, it's still earth, but with zombies. However when it's forced to the detriment of the story, that's where i draw the line. For example, when the story stops everything just to look at this gay side character for seemingly no reason. It doesn't sound like they did it with these characters, but still, being a character being gay shouldn't determine wether I like that character or not.
And to answer the question you asked in the first part of the video; their trying to appeal to minorities by doing, quite frankly, lazy character archetypes that often have no place in the setting of the story, in an attempt to sell more copies of the game. Like i said before, i don't think that's the problem here, I just think that a character be gay shouldn't be the focal point of the character. Nux Taku said something about women in media that I think also works here too. We need more characters that happen to be gay, rather than characters being gay and building off of that.
I wonder what my experience would have been like had i not seen the leaks, and more importantly the reaction to the leaks, that i saw. I stopped myself before reading any late game stuff, but i saw the reaction to Joel's death and at the time almost all the hate was homophobic, transphobic and bigoted, and it pissed me off so much because of course Joel would die in Ellie's game and of course some scenes would have gay themes, and yes of course woman can be buff and no one should be sorry that you can't enjoy your hand the same. I gave abby and her friends a pass before i even fully knew anything more than the Joel scene and a little bit about the "ending" (when lev stops abby), and maybe because of that i grew to really enjoy and empathise with those characters, even while playing as ellie before knowing their story.
Feels like last of us 2 should have been 2 games.
i see tlou2 as a bad take on nier automata, story wise.
Ikr these kind of stories been done so its not like tlou2 was the first to explain a deep message well it tried to.......
Finally somebody said it. This was also a part on why I didn't like it as well.. The entire story of part 2 was told and executed better by Nier automata route CDE
@@DanTE_1203 people like to cherry pick in this kind of situation... they only see nier automata as big booty waifu game with nothing else to give 😅
Why the hate? Because the game tried to have its cake and eat it too. You can't just give your brand new character a conclusion to their revenge narrative, then send an established and well-liked character on the start of their own revenge narrative, only to try to convince us that the new character was justified, but the established character is not. It's a hard sell even if the execution is perfect, but with an unstable premise (and several ret-cons from the previous game) they were basically asking for most of TLoU fans to hate it.
There Is no LGBT Agenda Ellie & Dinas relationship is just poorly written it's a slow night shift at Arby's
Dartigan?
Yes
Hey man. Love your channel. I just want to put out my own opinion on the issue of sjw agenda bullshit.
I am in no way shape or form against the LGBTQ community or their ultimate message. I am however not a direct supporter as it goes against my beliefs. I wont whine or cry murder against gay people. They are normal people too. I have gay friends whom I respect. I hope people can respect my beliefs and let me be.
It is ok to have gay people in your stories and to have gay main characters. It's ok to have a diverse cast and give representation. I want that to be accepted. For the agenda argument, I can see why people would shout it. For the reasons you pointed out, it's true. The whole agenda argument is bullshit. But the way I see it, it's an agenda in my eyes when it is forced. You constantly shove it in people's faces that the characters are gay and continue doing that with stupid reasons. Same can be said with the diversity argument and the feminist issue. Placing other ethnicities in places they shouldn't be (e.g. medieval Europe), making characters Mary Sues or bending the rules around them to make the characters suit the cries of an aggressive and toxic minority over good story telling. I am not a fan of that. When you are writing a story of gay people for the sake of making a gay story instead of writing a proper love story between gay people like everyone else. I'm not saying TLOU2 does this. In my opinion, it is an amazingly written story for Ellie's relationship with Dina.
I'm saying that's how I see something as an agenda. I may be wrong and could just be negatively influenced by the stupidity of loud extremists who taint the noble movements with their stupid demands. Feel free to educate me. I'm willing to receive feedback to understand other perspectives. Please keep it civilised.
Keep up the good work man.
Bro....can we just live in peace without one side flaunting something?
If we want eqaulity then we nees to be good examples to the community as a whole. And not in a negative fashion or something indecent.
Anyways I agree with you statement. We need to just let people be people in the same manner that we should allow gays to be gay.
But their is a line where things get weird and awkward. Decency and consideration above all.
@@Psykroids I agree. I'm all for homosexual representation in media. But you should not be special. Nor should the platform force the narrative that you are special and that everyone who mildly disagrees is a bigot. You are a person like everyone else. You just love a certain way not many do. The line of decency needs to be respected. Same thing applies to the other side of the coin.
@@doleofdolonia8859 Amen. Hell why do I need to walk around with my sexuality flag out in the open.
Whom I choose to kiss, lay with, or marry is my business. No one else's. I choose to be humble about my life rather than trying to glorify everything about it.
I wish you a good future Dole. And if we meet let me buy ya a meal on me. We need middle ground these days not this one sided tribalistic bomb scene.
The last of us 2 is hated because the internet is full of idiots.
Hang on with me, I'm gonna list all the reasons, some valid, others utter irrational bullshit:
- Crunch is valid reason for criticism... but on Naughty Dog as a studio.
It doesn't have much to do with the actual game content though, unless, of course, it ended up like Cyberpunk did.
- Pacing truly is a valid criticism, the game has some things ND games used to have: they got big and impressive setpieces, but not always they're justified for the actual story, the game chapters are a bit longer than they needed to be, however, there're good arguments about how feeling tired of a vengeance narrative can actually contribute to its message, narrative-wise.
More or less sound reasons:
- claiming the Story structure should put Abbie perspective first, it indeed would make people first impressions about her nicer, but I'd also agree with the developers saying it'd be too easy.
Cmon guys, part of the narrative is the conflict between emotion vs reason, we got the emotion from the first game, but we ALSO had reason to understand that Joel screwed up big and was a morally questionable survivor who FULLY ADMITED THAT.
Hell, we're even remembered that Tommy knows how to torture because it's was a thing they did, don't pretend they were white-horsed heroes, they werent, but they had a interesting grey morality story anyways.
- the claim that Joel Death was dumb.
In one hand, it was pretty convenient that the right people were in the right place in the right time, on the other it's a diabolous ex machina for the sake of the game's premise.
The story really starts AFTER the consequences of the death, how it happened, while also relevant to us, isn't really important for what the second game was saying.
PLUS, Joel being starting to be forgiven by Ellie, having spent a nice time in Jackson without having trust issues AND being put in the middle of a blizzard and infect people hord can be something that makes him need a hand or two. So I wouldn't exactly call it impossible.
Now, to the Bullshit reasons to hate the game
- "Oh AbBiE, DyNa anD LeV, suCh sjW propAganDa lul".
Oh yeah, because showing an all white, male orientended, gender and sex orietantion normative story is TOTALLY not appealing to someone, but when it's anything that DOES exist but doesn't appeal specifically to what you already have plenty is appealing and propaganda, right?
If you agree with this shit, just admit you're a hypocrite, doesn't create excuses for being an asshole.
"Abbie is unlikeable for what she did".
I understand not liking her at first. But even before revealing her past it was ALREADY OBVIOUS to me when she asked "do you remember me?" and Joel didn't remember was a clear sign that Joel, like the previous game already told us, DID PLENTY OF SHIT.
I was devasted emotionally for what she did, but Joel doing one right thing for him did meant a lot of wrongs to many other people, so what's the surprise?
It was heartbreaking to see Joel and Ellie flashbacks, but it utimately made it that much more interesting that the one person that gave that much love also destroyed and sacrificed the love of everyone else.
Plus, hating a character and the writers solely for liking too much another is kind of... being a fanboy?
I saw some "suggestions" for a "better" story and they all looked like bad fanfic in that Joel and Ellie went on another survivor adventure, that kinda shows you're more attached to fan feelings than to the very daring writing decisions that made you grow so attached to the story, drama and characters in the first place, why playing it safe?
One other thing btw: Abby isn't a bad character per se.
A character being good or bad isn't related to "I like her as a person", it's related to being written as if her was real and understandable as a person with its own relationships, flaws, goals, quirks, developments and struggles. She has all that, everybody who denies it are the same weirdos who says Skyler (or even the actress) from Breaking Bad is a "bad character" because she didn't support Walter drug empire, cmon, how stupid can that be?
- "the game is the same thing as the first". WRONG
Gameplay clearly evolved, even if just a bit from its original formula, there're a developed stealth mechanics, dogs, level design is bigger and we got more routes, weapons and options.
I didn't see anyone complain that hard about Uncharted 1-4 changes of its formula.
About Graphics, this one ALSO evolved a lot from the first game, as much as God of war 3 to the God of War Reboot.
- "it's just a revenge is bad stor--"
Oh really?
Throwing all nuances, themes, character emotions and desires, moral discussion, everything out of the window and replace is for the most oversimplified strawman superficial-level summary is now a valid constructive criticism?
So I can just come and say Breaking Bad is just a "lame being greedy is bad story" and forget about everything else?
Give me a break. Give me a example of your favorite and supposedly "complex" top fiction stories and I asure you I can show inconsistencies about your critical sense.
Understand little from a story while conveniently ignoring everything else just says you're the one missing something, not that the story.
- "the story is predictable, I already saw revenge stories"
For however saw and completely gave up on the game because the spoiler leaks from it: ARE YOU TELLING ME SEEING A LIST OF LOOSE PLOTPOINTS IS AS MUCH INTERESTING AND THE SAME THING AS LISTENING TO THE OST, PUTTING YOURSELF IN THE CHARACTER SKIN, CONNECTING THE STORY PIECES, FEELING THE EMOTION OF THE ACTING, ETC ETC?
Is it really justifiable for someone to hate the game based on something as silly as a list of spoilers? That's stupid.
You know, one really big problem with the whole message about forgiveness that by the nature of TLU2 as an action videogame, it doesn´t work well at all.
In TLOU and TLOU2, as an essential part of the gameplay, you are continuously killing humans, meaning that at the end of TLOU Ellie was already a cold-blooded killer that has killed dozens of people... And that only gets worse during TLOU2, Ellie kill-count reaches the low hundreds of people who had done nothing wrong to her, but suddenly after killing hundreds of "relatively innocent" people she decides to forgive the one she hates the most in the whole world... She is already a mass murderer and killing gets easier so why hesitate at the end?
Really that alone creates an extremely unfulfilling ending, it is like if in "Kill Bill" the bride doesn´t kill Bill or if in John Wick John lets the kid who killed his dog live... It may have worked much better in another format in which you, as a player, are not constantly murdering people... In the end, ND managed to inadvertently mix two of the narrative tropes who go the worst together "If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him" and "What Is The Measure Of A Mook" and that alone is would be enough for many people to hate the game.
I've said this on a few comments.
But you don't have to kill most of the humans in the game. You choose to do it.
The game ain’t forgiveness at all. These are just people interpretations. Ellie definitely did not forgive Abby at the end. It’s up to players what they believe the ending means.
I think most people who hated this game understood the whole thing about forgiveness. I just don't care about forgiving Abby or letting go what she did to Joel, I don't think anyone would expect a person to forgive someone to forgive a person who murdered a loved one.
If someone killed me in a apocalyptic world, I have no doubt my dad (who's ex military) would hunt that person down. Just like how I would expect him to kill anyone and everyone that tried to harm his family like how they tried with Ellie. Because what kind of dad would let his kid get cut up for a cure that isn't a guarantee? What kinda son would I be if I didn't avenge my dad's death because he saved me?
Hence why I don't care about forgiving Abby.
Good video! I personally loved the game. I think the storytelling is good. The first game had a simpler story, this one has a much more complex one. I liked that Abbys story isn’t directly connect to Ellie, it shows that the world is bigger than Joel and Ellie and it does a better job at humanizing Abby than having an arch where we see her working directly against Ellie actions or something.
This game is so bold in what it trying to do. It’s a breath of fresh air in comparison to the same shit every other Dev puts out. Could the storytelling be better? Yes! But it’s by no means bad, I love that the story is complex, so deep and requires you to connect the dots, so much more rewarding. But there’s also a personal element to it right? Some people like one way and other not.
Okay so with whatever happened, I think there should be a TLOU 3, as many questions are still unanswered.
Also, Naughty Dog said that they have already started working on a new game!
No, there is a agenda in the game. I have no issues with LGBT people, what people do in their bedrooms is no skin off my nose. I have no problem with representation either in anything. But when it is blatantly FORCED onto people is when it becomes a issue. This game does it allot with Ellie and Dina. It's constant in the first part of the game. It's not just a passing thing, it's ham fisted right into you. In the opening with the whole bigot sandwich thing. Then they constantly talk about their love triangle issues while out on patrol and so on. It keeps coming up, over and over and over. We get it, they are gay or bi. BIG DEAL. You don't need to force it down everyone's throat constantly, and that is what the media has been doing. It's constant, over and over and over and over.
So yes they ARE pushing an agenda. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
Why the hate? WHY NOT?... I don't like it though, no not hate. Just disappointment... But thumbs up for you for those who liked it...
I feel like people complaining about Joel’s death being fast and not a way Joel would go out are just invalid excuses. Cause you have to remember it’s basically a zombie invasion shocking things are gonna happen not everyone can go down in a flame of fire saving a town
I must be in the minority cause I actually felt bad for Abby and hated that last fight scene were your playing as Ellie.
I loved the game though and see it's flaws with Joel character but overall I fucking loved the game.
Both the timing of introducing Abby as a playable character and that climax switching are super weird. She should have her own game.
I feel like Abby is a real person to me, who ruined her relationship with her boyfriend by pursuing revenge, who is afraid of height, who tells silly jokes. I've invested in her so much. During the final battle, the thought that I had to kill Abby hurts me so much, I even put down my controller to see if the game actually made me(Ellie) kill Abby. But deep down I knew there wasn't a choice, they had a story to tell, all I could do was kept playing. I've never felt so emotionally drained after finishing a game. However, a good story doesn't have to make you feel good.
Love your channel and am waiting for your big boss video!
I came to watch a commentary on one of the best pieces of media ive ever experienced.
But you've helped me forgive the person who made me think I had a child coming and that that unborn child died.
Thank you
I think they should make a game or DLC on Joel set in between Sarah’s death and the events of Last of Us 1
Or back when Joel and Tommy were hunters.
@@jacktilghman9797 maybe combine the two into it’s own campaign
While I agree with everything you said in the video. You cant really disregard the agenda argument entirely. Yes some fans focus too much on this for no reason. Theres way more wrong with this game than that. And I have no problem with POC or LGBTQ. What is the Agenda? More inclusion for people who have been left out for a long time? Perfectly fine however, most people who want to push these agendas go too far sometimes which kinda backfires in what they want to do as people can only accept so much at a time. Like anal sex you gotta ease people into something, you cant just go in deep completely dry in a single push. Lesbian MC? Perfectly Fine I usually make those choices in RPGs anyway. Trans Antagonist? Fine, have you seen anime? 5 minute long fully Mocaped gay sex scene(I dont know how long it actually was but it felt like a long time)? Thats just uncomfortable to sit through even for me. Especially when it involves the character I have been hating. Im all for inclusiveness but seriously there is a line.
when the fuck is there a gay sex scene in this game? if you're ok watching straight sex, what's so wrong with gay sex? fuck off. i'm gay and i exist.
@@5345-i1t
What if you are not ok with either
(Also I could be wrong but I think ND did patch it out but I could be wrong)
Your argument is extremely lame. 😂😂😂
I don’t remember the last time I was mad about gay representation, and I wasn’t mad this time either. For a while I let others convince me that I should be mad, but now I for sure do not care.
This story is pathetic, I am not sure what Neil Dickman was thinking. Like, this game doesn't exist for me.
Man make a episode about in the mind of batman please
I didn’t get the explanation of disconnection, the narrative depth and structures used were very abstract for gaming. I feel a lot of ppl keep reviewing it from a subjective place, that isn’t getting to the route of Why, the game was structured this way.
Maybe we’re used to soo many 2D story structures in games, that a game like this becomes very easy to misinterpret.
I’ve watched so many reviews and analysis on this game, maybe I’m being douchey, but after watching girlfriend reviews video, it kinda felt like that was the best one on UA-cam now, no way you can watch that and not have your opinion changed if you’re a person is objective in general.
People have been dropping plot holes and flaws in this game, without really explaining why. If the games narrative wasn’t structured this way, conclusions you reached correctly at the end, wouldn’t have been realised.
One of the boldest, bravest triple AAA games I’ve ever played, my only fear is that the misconceptions and subjective backlash could put fear into other devs, from feeling brave to tackle subject matters like this
The narrative wasn’t lost to me and to many other people, I think it’s best to review it from your perspective compared too the audience in general. Big characters mirrored each other perfectly, and to this day, I’m constantly thinking about this game.
This is a game that should be re reviewed by a lot of people. I recommended you watch girlfriend reviews video
I'll check out the video :) Thank you for recommending it and leaving your input
Champion Analysis nice man. Let me know what you think
Her video states that everyone left wishing the Hulk bitch had died is deranged. Well darling it don't even look like the first games characters sunk into you properly. Fuck outta here
The game is a depressing, pretentious, woke pile of shit that thinks it's too smart for it's own audience.
even if it is poorly received its still nice to hear that "hey, this youtuber i enjoy watching and learn from isnt an a hole" when it comes to lgbtq issues, so i say to every lgbtq and ally of
im happy that you are and
thank you for affirming that
now back to listening while jamming crypt of the necromancer!!!
Yoooooooo I actually having something small planned involving Crypt of the Necromancer
@@ChampionAnalysis *tmw i only realised my typo after a comment came in... crypt of the necrodancer*
that being said the greatest crossover in history would probably be dante vibing in a necrodancer level XD
@@EXoDuZ302 Crap I did the typo too
@@ChampionAnalysis **insert joseph joestar OH NO**
ua-cam.com/video/cbhv3_V_Lkg/v-deo.html
Hey Hey Hey. I did the "Dante vibing to Crypt of the Necrodancer" thing ua-cam.com/video/hmftxbTrAQk/v-deo.html
I think Joel is out with Tommy not to work but to clear his head considering the gravity of the situation over just the past 2 days and so yeah Joel wasn't out there surviving but just keeping himself busy with patrols. So I do believe Joel grew soft so-to-speak. We all do. I was in operation enduring freedom aka war in Afghanistan. This is years later now and I'm acting like a citizen and sometimes PTSD I just gotta run off and do my own thing. This game was about obsession and the nightmares that go along with it. As someone suffering their own trauma aka my PTSD I could really connect with the characters. Also yes I would absolutely play an entire last of us game based on Abby
I also believe that Abby's Salt-Lake crew was working undercover and trading coffee to get closer to the people and find their target and a good escape route
It is not shocking that many hate the game. The story was far too complex for most. In my opinion, people who hate this game should really get a grip on reality. This game was intended to be a Fact over Opinion narrative. I would usually just say "Grow up and it will not be so difficult to digest what the game dished out for you" but fact of the matter is that most will not accept the truth of the game because they feel too strongly about their understanding. Or, prefered understanding. This game was never about playing the sweetest tunes, or being narrated in the way that is easiest to understand or made the most sense to those of an average mindset. The selling point of the first game? Story. The basis of the second game? Story... The game was intended to open your mind to viewing the characters, their personalities and actions in the previous game, UNBIASED. If you have not swallowed that pill yet there is no way you will be able to understand, let alone appreciate what comes after. A key theme of this game : Karma. Not the mystical kind you are thinking of. The more scientific transaction of every action having a reaction. Think of it like this. If you are someone that has a habit of messing with others, somwhere down the line you are going to mess with someone who is going to absolutely destroy you. Maybe because they were stronger, or more prepared. Perhaps it was just a matter of circumstance that you got your head smashed in. Fact of life : "There is always someone better" and if there isn't "You can't always win or die in the most noble of ways". Taking into consideration Joel's past actions is it really shocking that he died like a common peasant? No. He did the same to others. It caught up with him. The argument "There is no way he would have fell for that" is rubbish. They were being chased by infected. They were under pressure. They saw an opportunity. They took it. Blew up in their face. Making excuses of methods he could have employed to ensure his survival is just immature. Had The Last of Us 2 been released first and then TLOU which would be called "2" in that instance, as a sequel to allow us to peek into their history, people would not have been complaining as they are now. Their attachments people have developed coulded their judgement...or maybe not. Like I have mentioned, the story was far too complex for most. Mojority of the players are just gamers after all. If you have a history in writing, literature, or story-telling you would have come to find the narrative to be quite impressive and bold. Having that kind of background would allow you to view the story unbiased, which was key above all else, as well as make sense of the forward-back sway of the game's progression. The main theme of the game, forgiveness is difficult to accept for most because it does not sound as "cool" to them as being a savage underdog and surviving. That's their problem. Naughty dog did an amazing job with the narrative. Not overlooking small errors they made and the stupid things they promoted. Maybe the biggest mistake they made was delivering that story via videogame instead of a novel which would handed to more a more capable demographic.
Kinda feels like this comment has the whole elitist mentality and the "if you don't enjoy it, you are too stupid" idea but I could be wrong
A)Complexity isn't a definitive good thing
Take say Doom Eternal and KH series. Doom is extremely simple and straight to point while KH (despite me actually liking the characters) is extremely unnecessarily complex and confusing for most
Just because something is complex doesn't mean it is a good thing. Complex simply put is nice but not needed for a good game
B)See I would understand that
*If the story itself didn't have a lot of flaws*
If you want to make a story driven game, you need your story to land because if you don't your game will not do well enough for a sequel (unless you just got money like that)
This game has a lot of flaws some of which make sense some of which don't and that is why so many people don't like TLOU 2
C)Kinda like your name?Hehehe
But in all serious your descriptions of the second "Karma" doesn't really hold water since that is more of an "Kill or Be Killed" idea rather than Karma idea
D)Except most sane people still see Joel's death as just dumb. No one is asking for a blaze of glory death (at least the sane fans anyways) but people are asking for a death that makes sense for Joel's character.
If I had to write his death, it would be to sacrifice his life for Ellie (showing how Ellie became Joel's weakness) or having him face dozens of zombies all alone without anything (but that would be a blaze of glory type death wouldn't it)
E)I doubt TLOU series wouldn't have even been that popular since TLOU put story driven games on the map so change the order in which it wa decided and it prob would have ended up like Jax and Daxter, an another forgotten game that Naughty Dog created
F)Wow now you are just being an dick here
No one needs to have a degree in literature or such to know if a story is good or bad.
G)Having a cliche theme isn't bad thing that is something everyone (should) know. It is when it is so cliched that it feels so unnatural that makes a cliche bad. No human will go that as far as Ellie did and turn back thinking everything is fine. That is why it is a bad cliche because it is so unnatural
H)Your opnion is that it is good. Mine is that it is bad but hey we all have own opinions
How hard is it to follow the story just because it isn't presented to you linearly? I can't believe any fully functional person has trouble following it. Also, it's presented by flashbacks because Ellie is coming to terms with all that happened with Joel while he is on his revenge plot. The same with Abby.
I truly believe people can't digest anything that challenges them or makes them feel uncomfortable and question their assumptions. I thank the developers for not catering to the lowest common denominator player.
I can see the argument for Ellie's multiple flashbacks being representative of Ellie trying to come to terms with how she spent her time with Joel before his end, but the abuse of the storytelling device only leaves people questioning why they didn't just incorporate these events into the regular timeline especially considering the fact that some of these don't even have any meaningful triggers. Ellie playing guitar in the theater alone: a good place to transition into a flashback because the guitar is her link to Joel. Even if I think that specific flashback would be a better opener to the game it was still handled well. I can't say the same for every other flashback because they feel like they're just presented haphazardly. I wouldn't call those that feel this way the lowest common denominator because using flashbacks sparingly is considered a conventional practice for this reason. If they were willingly trying to go against the convention while avoiding this issue then I still think they didn't succeed in it.
I appreciate this review, not only because you touch on the reason that players disliked this game but because you touch on the topic of forgiveness. Anger takes so much energy and I often tell people the reason I forgive is because it helps me move on. You’re not excusing someone’s actions but rather letting go of the pain of that action and choosing to acknowledge that while it happened and you will never forget but you aren’t hung up over it.
Of course anyone has the right to be included and representated. But with agenda means that it's an obligation to have those characters in your game otherwise you get canceled because you're not inclusive. That's what "agenda" means to me when it's forced upon a product to be inclusive. Ellie's and Dinas relationship was so cringe... It felt so robotic and not natural at all, they had 0 chemistry. I wish I could like at least that about this game.
Yeah I've seen others say the same about forced inclusion and I can agree with that sentiment. I criticize stories for making characters that basically are "the _____ one" and just use stereotypes to make up their personality. That stuff gets me just as tight.
However, I think some people are often incredibly quick to cry agenda at ANY representation. Like some people set the bar extremely low. I think forced inclusion is when the character is written to have their sexuality/race/ethnicity/etc. to be their only defining character trait. I do not believe that is the case for the main cast of the game. Like I can't look at Dina/Ellie and say "oh they're the gay couple of the story". That literally wouldn't tell you anything about their character/relationship and that's my point.
Whether or not we think the relationship had chemistry doesnt matter becaue it wasn't their only defining character trait. There was a good amount of time dedicated to it yes, but that's because the story was trying to show how badly Ellie was fucking up her life with her decisions. You could make it a straight couple and it wouldn't change the focus of the story which is a good thing. One of the ironic things about good representation is that it isn't written to be the central focus. For example, including a gay couple but not writing the plot to be focused on how gay they are and how the fact that they're gay makes them superior or inferior to everything else. THIS is my definition of an agenda and I don't see it here with Ellie and Dina. They are just a couple that happened to be gay. It's treated as something normal by not making a big deal out of it which is literally all that is necessary. People that cry agenda are the ones that make it a bigger deal than it actually is in the story.
I'm not saying there aren't cases of forced inclusion in stories, but i dont think the mere presence of these characters is not enough for it to be considered forced 🤷
The way i feel the game should've been was like the way that you said in the beginning of the video where you play as ellie with joel and tommy on the scout mission and then the game continues from there don't get me wrong part 2 is amazing but what i would have changed was Joel's death i see why they done it but it could've been done differently but putting that aside the should've ended with ellie and jj staring at the sunset and santa barbara should've been free dlc where we get to see ellie's journey for the revenge but at the end of the day the exploration, graphics, and gameplay was spectacular but the story was ok also i love your channel and your content and I'm a huge Nero fan keep on doing what your doing👍👍
So what I'm hearing is that Joel got "fridged".
Good thing I did not preorder this game. I'll wait until the price goes down to $5 or $10 or wait until it's a free PS plus game lol 😂
Or u can abuse the return policy. Finish the game within 7 days and the game store allow u to return and exchange for something else with the same value. Use it too much and u will be on their blacklist tho
@@akiramurakami3177 that's extra effort requiring 2 trips to play a shit game not worth it
I never played TLOU 2 but watching your video the story felt rush. It's like the tv series "The Lost" the telling of the flashbacks(some) and future events messing up the storyline.
Ohhhh. You did a great job on this video. I'm glad I could hear real thought out opinions/critiques on the narrative instead of "HUR DUR, game bad because gay" or "Meh favorite character"
The majority of people didn't seem to understand the game. They did try and do too much with it however in one story. It feels like they couldn't decide which of two games to make so they stuck both stories together in a way that didn't mesh well but both were fine. The way the first game ended it was inevitable the fireflies would come after joel for revenge at some point. Either they came in and killed joel or would try to kidnap ellie and kill dina or joel in their attempt sending ellie off to kill them. Or their encampment would get overrun by infected sending them for new shelter and having them find a sect of the fireflies . There was no happy ending for these characters. That said, they should have kept it as Ellie's story. Or as a twist have the 2nd game be Abby's story and not show who she's getting revenge against until the end and follow up by making the last of is 3 Ellie's revenge story for Joel. I agree the flashbacks went against the tone, but it fits what happens when you're greiving a loved one. Your mind is all over the place and you get bombarded with memories, good and bad, leading to regret over how you treated the person, which is why Ellie let's Abby live in the end, because Joel wouldn't want her to get revenge. He'd done horrible things to the point he didn't want to know who or why they were killing him. That's why he just tells them to get on with it. He accepts it because he knows that while he's not a horrible person, he's done horrible things, and the result of them is why he's about to die. Abby's quest for revenge took everything from her. Her boyfriend went across the country to help her even after he'd left her for someone else, was starting a family with someone else, because he wanted to make her happy and all she did was push everyone away. It consumed her. Then when she tried to redeem herself by helping lev's sister she dies anyway. Then her revenge came back to haunt her when all her friends died, leaving her alone, and the cycle goes on, until Ellie ended it, because someone had to or it would just continue forever.
Is she wearing joel's coat when she leaves the 2nd time?
there is clearly an agenda Neil made a huge speech about it before with Anita Sarkessian's work so its OBVIOUS that it influenced the game Neil even said that Diversity and social agendas are as important as story and graphics when it really isn't its just character traits you can stop putting on high pedestals if you want it to be treated normally. They even pull The last jedi forumla with it like how it seems like all the Women are more capable or more competent than the men for some reason?? you can't say there isn't an agenda when Neil clearly said and admitted there was
Hey. Thank you for your comment. I 100% agree that putting things like sexuality on a high pedestal is not the way to normalize something, but I didnt get that feeling from the story. But I am genuinely interested in Neil's speech you mentioned. Its not something I was aware of when making this video. Do you know where I can find it?
@@ChampionAnalysis
Neil's speech
ua-cam.com/video/DHynFVW7-KY/v-deo.html
Ftr, death happens abruptly without a bunch of pop and circumstance in real life so they kill a person off like Manny mid-sentence to evoke the reality of death. This was based on a real world death during war, trust me that's war. Having a conversation with someone and a second later they're gone and we must move forward throughout the loss and depression and anger....made me reminisce about many unexpected deaths in my own life. So well done in ky opinion and sure there's some shock value there naturally but that's clearly not the driving force there
I can understand that perspective. It is a grim reality and if that is what the creators were going for then I can understand why its so abrupt. I still think from a storytelling perspective it could at least let those who are alive talk about the deaths or do something that shows this death mattered to the character. They do a great job of that with Joel's death, but I cant say the same for the others. Thank you for sharing your perspective :D
My problem with the ending is that it to me it resembled a lot like the "save martha" scene from batman vs superman.
A few points...
To me, the story is not strictly about forgiveness nor do I believe that is the prevailing theme of the game. It simplifies the story too much. The player is left to interpret whether Ellie is able to forgive Abby, Joel, and herself. The player needs to decide for themself if they can forgive. Really the story is more convoluted than that. Especially, in regards to the first game. It has various themes presented throughout that weave in-and-out of one another. It expands the messages the first game really only flirted with. The story shows what remains of mankind aka the last of us and how the world is at war with itself. Each town/city we visit contain a cliquey faction(s) that uses violence to push its agenda forward. However, Jackson is what the world could look like if groups welcome outsiders and work with them to a rebuild society instead of destroy what remains of it. This point is aided by the characters.
Abby's section is incredibly important. It provides perspective to the groups Ellie dehumanizes and shows us how both she and her faction dehumanizes the Scars. It is an endless cycle. Ellie's revenge quest takes place in a midst of a civil war. Both prove pointless and costly. As an outsider, we see how unproductive this all is but are helpless to make the characters recognize that. We are simply left to watch the chaos unfold and even be forced to be complicit in it. You say the game contains filler, but I'd argue that is more true for the first game. The first game's gameplay felt more like something that had to get done to unlock the story. There was a major disconnect between the story and gameplay in most case. The second has gameplay that furthers the story. I mean, Ellie slowly gets more aggressive throughout each section with her killing animations and comments towards her opponents. Abby and Lev fighting through the burning island around them shows the destruction that results from cyclical violence instead of collaboration. What a crazy experience having their respective groups call Lev and Abby traitors because they refuse to participate in the insanity of each groups misguided agenda. The characters navigate us through this brutal world and are each their own cautionary tale for what happens if they contribute to the deterioration of it. Ultimately, the world of The Last of Us is at war with itself, and the humanity of mankind will be the cost.
-There is no better, more interactive or immersive media to try and get the player to sympathise with the antagonist than a video game. It challenges the player to sympathise with the killer of someone they love. You probably felt the anger and frustration Ellie did. I don't think the game was perfect wit its execution. It definitely had flaws. Mainly the pacing and structuring which could've been improved. Like showing more of the relation and etc. We''re so used to holding up the protagonist who can do no wrong in typical Hollywood films and media and not question their morality.
-The biggest challenge for the player wasn't the game but the mental challenge of stepping into Abby's shoes and overcoming your own bias which some were not willing to do.
-I feel like most people play games for escapism but I feel like games can also be realistic, immersive, and focus on current-day topics such as Detroit, Life is Strange. It just that most games focus on escapism that when we play an immersive game it feels strange. It's fine for games to inject realism and use relevant and recent topics for something in the movie. Even things like Naruto use Proxy wars as a plot point and has a character do a whole speech on it but because it's set in a fictional world and dealing with topics which are so far removed from the average person it doesn't feel political. Even Star Wars prequel trilogy does this. Because TLOU2 has issue of revenge, Transgender, homosexuality non-typical female action roles, for example, it's rare for females to take the brute role of the group things that set the anti-sjws off because it's a current topic some people felt it was too political and call it a game with an agenda. I believe video games are art and most art has a message if they want to tell one. The game has problems but I think it was fine with how it played out, to be honest. It wasn't what some people want but it told a story that was difficult for players to be invested in. Whe things don't go how you expected it you felt betrayed. But enough about the politics.
-But yes Abby's body is attainable by women in real life without steroids. See the model they game model was based on. There are bigger girls in fact that I've seen. If we're going to question body types then Joel shouldn't be as built as he is and more lean.
-I feel like people needed to move on. What people expected TLOU2 to just be another Ellie and Joel on another adventure essentially a last of us 1.2 and play the first game again. But people needed to move on. But after what Joel did at the hospital it wasn't gonna happen. Karma was going to catch up and bite his ass.
-In regard to how Joel's death happened, I think it was fine for this type of game. People wanted him to have an epic hero's death or fight to the death where he would be honoured by the game because we saw all the things he an Ellie went through in the game. Plus we feel even more connected to the characters because we play and control them we feel more connected. Think of when you die in games you may say something like 'I died' or the game tells you 'you died' No you didn't but it feels more personal. But narratively they way he went out works for this type of game. People in this universe have pathetic deaths just like all the other NPCs you kill. But because we spent the first game with Joel we grew attached to him and as the centre of that universe and some may even see him as the hero but he is not. He's the enemy and trigger of Abby and her arc and in that universe was just like any other character.
-They live in a bleak world where's there's not much to live for. Those moments of happiness and family can be so meaningful as it's a breakaway and escape from the hard world which heightens the joy felt by the characters. When you take away that joy what is there really left in the world to distract you from going on a rampage?
That's what happened to Abby and then Ellie. Their stories and cycle match up perfectly.
-Joel's off screen development in the 5 years has been living a good and happy life which must seem like the complete opposite from the past 25 years he's led. He's grown softer and let his guard down as the world is starting to recuperate a little that groups have now become forming with their own agendas.
-When you plan to kill someone you want to restrain effectively so they have no means of escape. Plus it was Tommy's fault for revealing their names. And in this empty world giving them a slow death may make you feel very satisfied rather than shooting them in the head. This is what Abby did. Being beat by a club will never compare to Abby's pain. And with nothing left for Ellie going on a rampage was probably the only means she felt to give closure. However Ellie's journey did her more harm than good. She's left alone, unable to play her guitar, lost her friends, and left off in a worse place. And what Ellie said she feared the most happened.
-And with Joel being killed off in such a cheap way made you feel the anger Ellie did.
-People in the world are morally grey and so is Ellie, Joel and Abby. It's our own biases which leads to some people forgiving Joel and Ellie but not Abby.
- It's why Abby's portion comes after Ellie's, essentially everyone knows 'revenge bad' everyone has heard that before, but they make you play as her after you already hate her, it's basically a challenge for the player to go with an open mind and challenge their own biased perspective of the story. Like, hey we all know what you should do, but right now do you actually want to get to know Abby? And if the answer is no, because she killed my favourite character in a game, then you are falling back on your biased perspective? The game doesn't say you failed, but it does point to the actual difficulties of making the 'right' choice, not that there is a definitive right or wrong, but Abby is the main character of her story. It does it brilliantly when Tommy teaches Ellie how to snipe. But when you are Abby trying to get past the sniper there was probably a moment where you hated Tommy for being so good.
-Sudden deaths of named characters that are unimportant to anyone but the viewpoint character, sum up what to my mind is a central issue with the game's haters: they are expecting (and actually demanding with violent threats) storytelling tropes and stereotypes and reacting with anger & frustration when they get something that feels more true to life or has more emotional depth. The fact that many of the important story beats buck some of the standard storytelling tropes, while simultaneously placing women in central, powerful roles, is almost certainly why so many reactionary gamers are trying to link their Anita Sarkeesian obsessions with the game's development.
-And no those who want to say the game was saying 'revenge is bad' missed the entire point. This theme of how destructive revenge can be has been told in other media such as Sasuke from Naruto before so the message isn't new. Even if you thought the execution was bad the message isn't bad. It was forgiveness.
Effectively, what they actually want is the bad writing, the lazy storytelling devices meant to affirm power fantasies, the expected dramatic cues (which is not what anyone should have realistically been expecting from the Last of Us), and are responding to clever writing--emotionally affecting scenes, the slow but continuous drip of contextual information that sustains tension, impactful viewpoint shifts by rejecting it outright.
-It's funny seeing people try to make rewrites of their own story. I've read a bunch of them and it's the same old Ellie and Joel go on an adventure yadayada and Abby is there or something but doesn't kill Joel and Abby helps the duo with her Father or something. No risk, nothing new. I feel like what most people wanted TLOU2 to be was Joel and Ellie going on another adventure basically 1.2. But that wasn't going to happen after what Joel happened at the hospital. Karma was going to catch up and bite his ass eventually. People needed to move on from Joel just like Ellie did. The player needed to overcome their own expectations and bias which resulted in tribalism just like Abby and Ellie did.
I can't care for the WLF that Ellie kills during her story. All the enemies killed are done in self-defense with the WLF being the aggressors. They try to shoot and torture Ellie, and did succeed in blowing up her horse. That's before gamers find out how they became authoritarian overlords over Seattle, executing civilians for small things such as taking umbrage with orders or graffiti. During Abby's story, we see them torture others for information and pleasure, dehumanize kids and engage in a genocidal war of extermination. The only WLF members I had some sympathy for are the ones who ambush Ellie at an upgrade bench because they were running away from Isaac and mistook Ellie for a WLF member.
I applaud them for having the balls to kill of their protagonist from the prequel however everything else was handled poorly afterwards.
I feel Abby's 'reasons' for torturing and then killing Joel was too weak in the eyes of the audience. I mean I get it, Abby was probably fed some kind of 'lies' regarding Joel and acted upon vengeance which is all okay. Playing as her and 'understanding' her view point is all all okay. We as the audience knew that Abby's dad wasn't a 'good' guy. His whole plan was on shaky grounds and the life lost would have been an innocent child. We know that but Abby didn't so while we can give her 'actions' a pass at the start, we can't get over Ellie's action at the end.
A story's 'worth' is most times determined by how it ends. It may have a great run but the ending can make or break it for most people and for my Ellie's 180 degree turn at the end made no sense. She KNEW that Joel did what he did for love and then she SAW him not just getting killed by getting tortured and killed brutally. She went on a journey, albeit regretting it, killing 'innocent' people to get to Abby and stop at the end with Abby who isn't 'innocent'.
Vengeance and Forgiveness has been handled before together in a single story many times and this game is an example of what not to do. Ellie's realization came too late and by then the audience/user/gamer wanted blood and then got nothing. I feel most of this could have been avoided by simply having 2 endings by giving the audience/user/gamer the POWER to choose between killing or sparing her.
That is what they failed in, in my opinion.
The reality is that, no matter how hard you try, it is difficult(not impossible) for a romantic relationship(Ellie and Dina) or a sibling relationship(Abby and Lev) to beat a parent/child relationship, especially with what Joel and Ellie had in the first game. Then the introduction of Abby and what the game wants the audience to feel about her is out of touch with reality, literally wanting people to like a person who would cheapshot/backstab a person that just save her ass just because the man is a killer of her father, which is not how likable people operate in stories or real life. You either go full villain mode with Abby, and let the player hate her and have her killed with no gameplay time for Abby, or you make Abby a consistently honorable person if you want the audience to like her. Subverting expectations does not mean nonsense, you still maintain common sense while you try to surprise your audiences.
Had the sequel been more consistent in storytelling with the first game, it would have been a perfect game. Sadly the storytelling just killed the game too hard, wasting all the great work the game had in every either aspects (including the motion captures and voice acting).
A well made video!
I have an idea and also part a request. You did a video about Aang and Katara's parenting and how it effected their kids. So I challenge you to do the same video about Sparda and Eve and how they parented Dante and Vergil. It is clear that both influenced their children. After all, both try to live up to the legacy of the Legendary Dark Knight, in their own way, while still remembering the love of their mother, also in their own way. I would like to see the video that expands upon that, if you can.
I feel like it would have been better to have 2 15 hour games, with the Ellie forgiving Joel arc and the revenge arc being self contained stories.
It would have reduced the need for flashbacks as the Ellie forgiving Joel arc could take care of all that and it could end just before or after Joel dies as a nice cliffhanger.
This then gives a full 15 hours in the second game to emphasise with Abbey and her group. Both games would then be very focused like the first game and explore their themes of forgiveness and hate fully and in chronological order.
No offense champ but do you need the description to remind you of what your first words are also in all honesty I'll rate the game when I get ahold of it and play it honestly my thoughts are on the game as of this moment are is it fun to play and that's all I really don't care about people being gay I have better things to worry about I just don't like that every time someone brings up as a gay character most of the time it's used as a shield (example) I don't like X then you're homophobic I don't like x i don't mind gay people my best man is gay and he doesn't like it either what does that make him then?
The story is told in a dramatic way rather than an epic way that you purpose. I preferred the dramatic way, though the pacing was indeed suffering a few times with too many flashbacks in a short time.
I skipped out on this game after the leaks. Maybe wait until it went down in price. But looked up more information and reviews of differing opinions. So I may look at a let's play. It's a story-driven game. So the story is more centre stage. Not the gameplay.
After watching your video though. (Great work by the way. I'm not being sarcastic.) I think that it would have been better to save the Abby stuff for part three. Maybe have the game focused on Joel and Ellie more as she finds out the truth. And them mending a fractured father-daughter relationship. Also, I am pretty sure there were other ways to extract the fungus from Ellie. Without cutting her brain up. I'm no doctor or medical scientist. But that seemed a little iffy to me. Especially since it was not guaranteed to be a viable vaccine. I am basing this of more real-world science. Since viruses and fungi are not one and the same. As far as I know, there are currently no vaccines to fungal infections. Several candidates are in the preclinical stage of development and two vaccines against Candida spp. (I just googled that last part.)
As for Abby. I think that her appearance is more cartoony and ridiculous to look at. Not to mention another reason I can't feel sorry for her, is simply because her backstory seems rushed and forced. It would have been more impactful if she had a connection to David or Marlene. Not to mention she is living quite the privileged life in the zombie apocalypse. She has spacious and well-kept living quarters, with various reading material, a wealth of food, and a gym. The story narrative seems to try and manipulate the player into liking her. Which only serves to fuel contempt. She should have been saved for part three. Maybe even have Joel's death in that game as a misunderstanding. Like Abby is seen over his body. Maybe someone filled Tommy's head with garbage about Abby. Then have Abby's portion of the game focused on proving her innocence.
But, while I want to write a novel. I'm not close to being ready yet. I'm not a professional writer.
Thankful you decided to try something new and went way more in depth on the topic beside Bricky on Last of Us 2. Honestly not a DMC fan which is why I barley clicked those videos. Make sure next time while editing I know to tell the viewers that YOU MIGHT SPOIL the game parts to explain in a Review. This is just for those who see reviews and don't want to be spoiled about it. Mandaloregaming review games can show what I mean. Give fair warning to viewers
next time.
Yeah, I've been doing the Retrospectives on DMC first because those are my most viewed videos, but I definitely have more stuff planned beyond that series. I'll also try to be more explicitly with spoiler warnings too.
You know what's the most funniest thing is the Naruto pain Arc did it better the cycle of hatred
All good points but i gotta be honest
It was best game i ever played in my entire life
I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
I thought Dana and Ellie made a cute couple but unfortunately the story is s***
Make a video on kratos
Not upset that the game features gay characters, just upset that the game features unlikable characters. Ellie's girlfriend(whose name I don't even remember) was really dull and uninteresting. I would've rather had Jesse as an AI partner because he was actually funnier.
Imagine waiting 7 years only to hate it.. 🤣🤣
Yeah that's such a bad feeling man. I don't fully hate it, but I can imagine how bad that feels for those that do lol
Although I totally disagree with your comments on the narrative structure, I am very glad you pointed out, that this isn't at it's core about revenge. Too many reviews just don't geht this.
I think The Last Of Us, Part II is in a way like The Godfather, Part II: Much more complex, heavier and deeper than it's predecessor. Confusing by the time of it's release, but worshipped in retrospect.
I definitely disagree with your Godfather 2 comparison, but I'm very glad you shared your opinion.
Not gonna lie, you reviewed and analyzed the game better than anyone, and if I may share my opinions, this game would've been better but the biggest problem was that the characters were handled poorly. The story often trolled you with flashbacks after flashbacks, I knew Joel would die judging from the game's setting and environment (it's a post-apocalyptic world - anything can happen) but his death was disrespectful and offending to longtime fans of the previous game, still though, it could've been better. Great explanation about forgiveness, and sadly most people think forgiveness is for weak and gullible individuals but it's not, mentally that is. And lastly, I too loved Uncharted 4 but with Neil Druckmann's misbehaviour and rude response to the fans hating the game, he somehow failed in making me say "okay, maybe we'll give him a chance if he ever planned on developing a third game" but I guess time will tell.
Because Joel lied to Ellie at the end of the first game 👎
as much as I'm glad I didn't like the games with how the sequel came out, I really feel bad for the fans, they deserved a better story. And the actors working on the characters did such a phenomenal job too.
and thank you for laying out the whole thing in such a cohesive manner, I feel like I finally understand the game and the intended story.
Don't feel bad I loved both stories.👍
@@ACORNyMOFO that's good to hear!
They killed Joel, replaced him with the feminist She Hulk, who is bigger than him, and made Ellie The Biggest Loser.
I actually felt really bad when I killed Nora..