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Would you opt for a life with no pain? - Hayley Levitt and Bethany Rickwald
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- Опубліковано 16 лис 2015
- View full lesson: ed.ted.com/less...
Imagine if you could plug your brain into a machine that would bring you ultimate pleasure for the rest of your life. The only catch? You have to permanently leave reality behind. Hayley Levitt and Bethany Rickwald explore Robert Nozick’s thought experiment that he called the Experience Machine.
Lesson by Hayley Levitt and Bethany Rickwald, animation by Avi Ofer.
In the responses people keep saying "The pleasure would 'run out' after having pleasure all the time". Come on people, you're smarter than that. The point of the scenario is that the pleasure never ends! That's the whole point of the philosophical question!
+scottdpt12 True, but your brain would become desensitized to the pleasure after a while.
yes, but you would slowly need more pleasurable experiences. everything you worked hard for and tried to value would fail to keep up
+Feanor Fingonson re-read the post
+ShadyProductionsMC Re-read the post.
+scottdpt12 Yes, in this hypothetical world, surely science would also be able to alter your brain so that the pleasures never lose their pleasure. To debate this minutiae is to avoid examining the whole point of the thought experiment.
I think they plugged me into the endless pain machine.
oh w o r m
lol
I mean... You are a furry
@@jatnael6180
Dude, why...
@@princereyes2094 not.. there I finished your reply there
I'm not asking for a life with no pain, but for a life with less pain.
I think you mean life with no meaning less suffering
@Kian M Du pain
Le pain c'est bon, oui oui, croissant, baguette
Croissant
ua-cam.com/video/UZKcSuYaBQY/v-deo.html
“Do not pray for an easy life; pray for the strength to endure a difficult one."
- Bruce Lee
I think I have been doing this lifestyle, thinking it makes happier. And it has, my Ba2- Religion has kept me happier for way longer than any purpose or motive for living than anything I have experienced before. Now I'm not sure if I keep believing in this, simply because I am uncomfortable growing up and avoid living actually independently. I don't believe in a god so I don't depend god will give nor show me this answer. I just hope that what I am doing, actually is meaningful towards my further future. 😪
"God (has) given (me) a "tail to keep the flies off, but that (I) would sooner have had no tail and no flies."
-Benjamin the Donkey, Animal Farm, George Orwell
Smart bruce lee
Dep :flooshed:
and now he's dead!
People say that they wouldn’t grow as a person, but In a paradise you wouldn’t need too.
You pretty much need badness to have goodness be worth anything. If you're constantly happy all day, eventually you will acquire "happy blindness" and feel bored because you're not feeling anything else. Joy must be contrasted with suffering.
To*
exactly! when we compare two situations we often get it wrong by some unmatched assumptions that doesn't apply on both cases.
@@user-dn2bb6ts3u what if in that reality this didn't apply and there was a fix for it?
Also, being constantly happy all the time, no matter how you try to put it, will eventually be equivalent to being constantly bored. After the first octillion years, you would for sure stop receiving the same emotional response.
“If good things lasted forever, would we appreciate how precious they are?” -Bill Watterson
Well if i gave your mom cancer and said "She needs to experience it to appreciate not having cancer." would you say thats cruel? Like subjecting betsy to a future of unending sadness for "Truth & Knowledge"?
Life should be learnt the bloody hard way but to deliberately cut someone's life short like say terminal cancer is distastefully unfair. People can be aware of the suffering and accept it without subjecting oneself to harm.
Do I need to cut off my right hand to go "Gee, now I know how amputees feel."
So true
That is itself a hedonistic argument, not an argument against hedonism.
@@LentaChorum "Do I need to cut off my right hand to go "Gee, now I know how amputees feel." According to your own reasoning, yes. Your whole point is that it's great that good things don't last forever because we otherwise could not appreciate them. In that regard, your distinction between refraining from hurting oneself and choosing to get the best possible result for oneself is completely arbitrary. If you actually applied your logic consistently, it would indeed mean we should cut our arms off.
Endless pleasure, no pain?, sign me up!
I'd say no if I had to leave everyone else behind. I feel too much loyalty to the rest of humanity to not stay and help make this reality better.
This comment made me really happy, restored my faith in humanity :)
Yeah but what if everyone went on the machine at the same time - you'd have no obligations
@@rhino3004 Well then the others wouldn't be there to make my reality miserable anymore so I'd stay in this one.
@@shubhroy7960 But you'll feel lonely, for there must be at least someone you do care about.
@@shubhroy7960 But if there are other people, you will likely disagree with them at least once, but disagreement counts as a negative thought. So the machine would simply make people who would say yes to everything you do, and they wouldn't be real people, just props that look like people.
"...You gotta have opposites: dark and light, light and dark. If you have light on light, you have nothing; if you have dark on dark you basically have nothing. You know, it's like in life: you gotta have a little sadness once in a while to know when the good times come.
I'm waiting on the good times now."
-Bob Ross
Bob Ross was an amazing person huh?
Rip bob ross
LEMON LORD MARKO This video implies that you‘ll never get bored of the pleasure even without pain. Because if the pleasure really plateaus then It wouldn’t be really pleasure; it would be neutral. The machine promises you pleasure forever which contradicts the logical assumption of the pleasure plateauing meaning that the machine can transcendent the pleasure getting boring and normal.
@@hypnogri5457 Yo, you're actually right.
I can tell you a dark on dark life isn't that good, so following this logic light on light must be bliss. Many people assume you need to know bad to taste good, but that's simply wrong. Good is good. I don't need to eat poop to appreciate pastries.
I know some of you will say "no" to do this, but I definitely would say yes. I don't want the truth, I want happiness, I don't care if it's an illusion. I am fed up with being unhappy.
+Victim Of Reality this would be a godsend honestly
+Victim Of Reality Humans as a biological organism will always choose yes, but that decision is the one every sentient animal would take. The division from us and other intelligent beings is that we can opt to suffer for a greater cause, in this case the "truest" reality, which for some is more important than fake everlasting happiness.
+Victim Of Reality You would get equally fed up with being happy, as your brain would simply get used to the given stimuli and you would become a "happiness junkie" - you would constantly want more and more, as it would never be enough. It's better to be sad for the most of your life and experience a few of beautiful moments than to be constantly happy, at least in my opinion. I've been depressed for many many years and I tried to take my life more times that I could count. And yet I would still never say "yes" because sadness is just a natural part of life, sometimes it's sunny, sometimes it's raining... As long as it's just a normal rain and not meteor shower you're good, trust me on that. #Kappa
I am talking about having truly ever lasting happiness, one that won't fade away.
+Victim Of Reality I don't want anyone to suffer. I want everything to be in a constant state of pleasure, even if it's an illusion. :(
I wouldn’t not judge or try to stop anyone from “plugging in”, but I wouldn’t myself. I made a promise to follow life’s path, I intend to keep it
a life without pain is perfect, because it wouldn't be possible for you to regret your choice or get bored, since you'd always be happy no matter what. even if you wanted something bad to spice up your pleasure, I think the machine would let that happen, as it would lead to more pleasure in the long run than having nothing bad happen at all. I think there's just inherent peace from knowing the problems you face can always be solved, rather than living in a world of actions with unfathomable consequences, some of which effect the rest of your life.
interesting
Yeah of course. You wouldn't get bored of it because boredom is a negative thought. Negative thoughts are impossible in the scenario since it's a world with ONLY ups and no downs
thats why this machine is impossible to create. And Im sure at some point you definitely will get tired of all this pleasure which is not just meaningless, its fake.
@@maikatideibaskapanaumrqlatupa Paradise is an interesting concept.
Agreed
@@maikatideibaskapanaumrqlatupa But tiredness is also bad.. If someone would plug in, they would be *always* happy
it's not up, it's a straight line
This man had deep shower thoughts😂
Damn, how long that guy was in the shower?
Philosophers in a nutshell lmao
@@limon4k934 Too. Much. Shower.
@@TheEdenSnow waaaay. Too. Much. *Shower*
no, that's called asking questions, doing research, and being aware
I feel like we value things more when we have gone through opposite-feeling situations. If the choice were between a life of only pain or a life of only happiness, I would definitely choose the latter. That being said, I think the optimum scenario would be of a life with balance. I'm not sure if it's naive of me, but I tend to find importance in every human emotion. There are so many beautiful and great things that come from non-pleasurable emotions. Yes, we would always be happy, but at what cost? I get that if we were ever plugged in we wouldn't miss this things, because we would just be happy or whatever. But being someone who has found a little balance in my life, I don't think I would give it up.
I agree
I agree with you there.
Your point on whether we value things more when we've gone through the opposite-feeling experiences is interesting and probably accurate. I've gone through something similar, there was a time when I couldn't feel anything, and honestly since then no matter how much it hurts, I always value emotion over most things. I would prefer feeling any negative emotion over feeling none at all.
The fact that happy experiences get numb over time or that going trough opposite feelings often intensifies happiness isn't really a reason to reject the experience machine.
Consider this scenario: You get back home after a long day of work and, remembering that you haven't eaten much during the day, you bite into an apple and it's the most delicious thing you've ever tasted.
So the next day you eat apples all the time. In every short break you eat an apple. But all those apples and not even the apple you eat when you go home won't taste nearly as good. Even though they were the exact same apples, they had less taste to them, because you weren't hungry all day.
I can't speak for you, but i think what i myself want isn't the mixed experiences of being hungry all day and then eating an amazing apple. This is surely better than eating apples all the time, but what i actually want is just the experience of eating the delicious apple, because this expereince has been intensified trough my hunger. It may not be possible in reality, but if i could have the experience of "biting into an apple after being hungry all day" over and over again without actually having to be hungry all day, i would choose it. And this is exactly what the experience machine offers.
I have another thought experiment to consider. An endless pleasure machine would be like a mountain that you're endlessly climbing. You're constantly reaching new heights (if it's working optimally), but each new "high" is only slightly better than the last. Real life is more like an entire mountain range. You have a series of peaks and valleys, with some peaks being extremely high and some valleys being very deep. You will experience a lot more pain, but some of those highs will come very suddenly and be much more dramatic--and rewarding. If you have the lows to compare them to, the highs will be _much_ more satisfying overall than an equivalent high provided by the machine. Using this thought experiment, this is my conclusion: The pleasure machine is a safer bet, but real life might be more rewarding and satisfying in the end. It really comes down to fortune, because man has very little control over his own destiny. We are often incapable of bringing about extremely pleasurable moments based on our own actions. Usually, we just rely on life to throw us the dice. And that's what makes it so great: we weren't expecting it.
Suffering makes you enjoy pleasure a lot more. Maybe torture people in a way that doesn't break their minds by desensitizing them to pleasure, then pleasure them, then repeat
@@elgordobondiola I wouldn't say torture but teach you in a way that your life doesn't matters on the teachings, it is definitely rewarding If we pass through its test.
beautiful comment, thank you
Matthew Walton, for the scenario, I would like to suggest that the machine fixes the stairs in some way
You wouldn’t even feel negative in the first place because the machine would only replace it with happiness
Being that happy would weirdly creep me out like some weird dystopian world.
There's a book called "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley which describes a dystopia like what you mentioned.
Your comment reminds me of "We Happy Few". In fact, the entire video does.
@@kingston9356 we happy few was based in brave new world.
an extraordinary book. You have to read it
@@arthurseara ok, I am hooked, I will find the book.
you wont get creep out because happiness is the only emotion there
Before the video: Yes
After the video: Yes
How much more pleasure do you need?
*YES*
yes
E
me before life : *yes*
That would mean leaving all my friends and destroying bonds with people I spent whole life making for mere copies of that. I wouldn't do it. Truth and ideals must co-exist. Pain and plesure make life more exciting. That is my opinion.
I don't think people knows how good pleasure feels ALL THE TIME. Even if it means forever, that pleasure won't be "normal or boredom" it will always be pleasure, and there will always be infinite ways of feeling it, so ofc i would. Pleasure will always feel as pleasure no matter how long or the circumstances
Yep. Im pretty sure people just misinterprate the word 'pleasure'.
If ur doing coke over a long period of time, each line will be a bit less intense than than the last one. But it's not the pleasure itself becoming weaker, but instead ur brain adopting and releasing less pleasure.
Pleasure itself is always epic. Its just the brain, that adopts how much of it is released and building up tolerance for a certain stimulant. In the experiment, its the machine that controls how much pleasure u feel
If you felt pleasure all the time would you bother getting out of bed ? or taking shower or cleaning your room ? You have no reason to do anything because all you feel is pleasure . You have to be sick in the head to want pleasure ALL THE TIME . That's a meaningless life .
@@SchnurriTVYeah, a lot of people just straight up lack the imagination or would go “that would never work irl” even though
A: this is a fictional thought experiment, no one reads Tolkien and goes “this is rubbish magic doesn’t exist”
And B: we don’t even know if it really isn’t possible to be happy all the time, some claim to have a very high baseline e.g Anders Sandberg and psychologists have known about hyperthymic temperaments for decades. Plus there’s that Scottish school teacher who seems biologically incapable of suffering both physically and mentally.
@@renegadesofanarchy289 agreed
@@SchnurriTVthe brain does adapt. its like how we get bored of games and move on and repeat and repeat,
I have chronic back pain, shoulder pain and wrist pain. Plug me in now
“Would you opt for a life with no pain?”
Well yes, but actually yes
XD
That is the life of a Tree or a Dog - what pains does a dog have? What worries does a dog have? Free food, shelter, protected, cared for - Heaven!
Care to be a Dog or a Tree?
@@ramaraksha01 This reminds me of Diogenes
@@ramaraksha01 I wanna be a rock
@@friedlemons5201 So be it. Free will and you have made a choice
Problem is that you won't KNOW that you are a rock - without a brain or eyes, it is like you are asleep and have no knowledge of anything. You won't even know you are asleep
But you will have no pain or suffering for nothing can harm a rock
it takes a rainy day to make the sun seem brighter
without rain, the sun will seem darker everyday
not unless it shifts to MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE
What if some people like the rain?
KILLERZEBRA without ever being sad, happiness would have no meaning. If there was nothing but happiness, then you wouldn't know anything different, and you would not be truly happy. Thus, to actually get more net worth pleasure, you must go through pain.
well then it takes a sunny day to make the rain seem rainy-ier??
That is false. Because there are not only two possible states... since there are more than two, some o them are not needed to appretiate the others. It is as stupid as saying that you need sadness for appretiating happiness, like those are the only two possible states. But you could be indiferent, neutral. Sadness is completelly unnecessary for your experience of happiness
The whole video summed up to 1 sentence: life is not just about having fun.
true, the meaning of life is not only fun, you are correct,
the meaning or purpuse of life is "42"
@@fifoux082 Nice reference
@@fifoux082 what's 42?
@@Zalk00000 the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything
@@fifoux082 I don't get it
I don't want to experience pleasure 24/7 but I would happily forever escape pain.
For many people, blind pleasure isn't the goal.
Peace is. Which is basically just wishing for the pain to stop.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS (repeat x∞)
this is just taking drugs without the side effects
"soma" be like:
Cream
mmmmmmmmmm.........
Clever resemblance
That's the dream
So basically the question is would you live the life of a minecraft server owner.
Like you
@@thedynamicdoggo4155 not really
@@thedynamicdoggo4155 r/whoosh
@@thedynamicdoggo4155 u r just jealous u cant get minecraft and have to play roblox instead
@@thedynamicdoggo4155 Minecraft is the best fucken thing shut up
I can listen to this guy all day tbh
id never pick a world of pleasure because the troubles and obstacles of life give the pleasures you feel meaning and satisfying. this is the philosophy i live by and is what keeps me optimistic all the time because i know when i look back to see i made it through a tough time it makes the reward at the end so much better and satisfying
So it's basically Infinite tsukuyomi.
😂😂😂
Nope, that's blissful ignorance.
@@skippernolen5644 that marriage experience was an example of the question here, and by that I mean blissful ignorance applies here to
😂😂😂😂
That’s exactly what I thought!
Pleasure wouldn't feel as good without pain.
Wayne
That was what I was thinking during the video as well! 😊
cosette nashi ikr
But the machine only offers pleasure which means u will always feel pleasure. It also means it's impossible to find the experience boring.
Johann 143
But still, I think that achieving something you've worked hard on really makes you feel triumphant! ☺️
cosette nashi Good point.
There are many things which are way more important than pleasure, such as various experiences, learing the truth about life , and realizing what pain feels like . Pain can never be pleasing but it can actually do wonders which no pleasure can do. Its important to feel good but to learn and experience pain is even more important!
Pain is an illusion.
@@lifeisagameofknowingyourro6327 an illusion?
NO. Pleasure is the ultimate goal of life, experiences are but measures to this end goal, while pain is the complete opposite of that goal. All humans strive to live their best lives, to make the most of this hollow, pointless void of misery and pain called life, and go through it with as little suffering, as possible. Only a Masochist would want to suffer as much as he can.
@@jarekwrzosek2048 what you mean by masochist?
@@mahnoorkhalid5118 You don't know what a masochist is? It's a person who enjoys being in pain and suffering.
To everybody that was just about to comment "Reject the experience machine, because only the pain makes us appreciate happiness". This is nonesense, because the experience machine could simulate "trough pain appreciated happy experiences".
The fact that happy experiences get numb over time or that going trough opposite feelings often intensifies happiness isn't really a reason to reject the experience machine.
Consider this scenario: You get back home after a long day of work and, remembering that you haven't eaten much during the day, you bite into an apple and it's the most delicious thing you've ever tasted.
So the next day you eat apples all the time. In every short break you eat an apple. But all those apples won't taste nearly as good. Even though they were the exact same apples, they had less taste to them, because you weren't hungry all day.
I can't speak for you, but i think what i myself want isn't the mixed experiences of being hungry all day and then eating an amazing apple. This mixture of pain and happiness is surely better than eating bland apples all the time, but what i actually want is just the experience of eating the delicious apple, because this expereince has been intensified trough my hunger. It may not be possible in reality, but if i could have the experience of "biting into an apple after being hungry all day" over and over again without actually having to be hungry all day, i would choose it. And this is exactly what the experience machine offers.
@Thomas.Patrick.Pearl. yes, exactly. It also makes evolutionary sense for the brain to remove receptors after too much stimulus.
So deep this video is.
Btw, is it possible that if our brain kept having a constant supply of nett pleasure, our brain will get numb by it/get used to it and will need a higher form of pleasure to be happy?
+boy638 To my knowledge yes. Basically, our avility to learn is the problem with hedonism. The brain tends to learn to take for granted a certain level of stimulus, making it nessesary to reach greater levels of stimulus to gett off on. You end up with idiots racing on lamborginies, and proposterous waste.
The "normalisation" of a circumstance.
One must modulate ones own stimulous, so as to -prevent waste.
+Alexander Zapata The human condition is one of Addiction; in short.
+boy638 What if the machine could supply that higher form of pleasure each time?
***** Is much more coplicated than a chemical in the brain. That explanation is old and lacks, usually used in tabloid science. The physiology of feeling is complex. But the psychology not so much.
CrackaBox The brain is very limited, but basically you end up with a rock.
Tension, or bad sensation seems to be the driver to behaviour.
“Many other people disagreed to use the endless pleasure machine”
*Press X to doubt*
X
X
X
x
X
The Infinite Tsukuyomi but with a machine 👌
I'd 100% want to be plugged into this machine
There's no way you could experience endless pleasure unless every moment somehow outdid the last. Otherwise your experiences would just normalize to a new average - such is the nature of the human experience.
My thoughts exactly. It would all become boring.
I can eat a bag of chips and gain pleasure... right after I could eat the worlds best m&ms and have even greater pleasure... later that day I can eat the same type of chips and experience more pleasure. your point is refuted.
I am reminded of a certain mental disability that prevents you from adjusting to a stimuli or a certain situation. Like, if you watch something funny, you can continue to watch the same thing over and over again without any diminishing joy. A few autistic children suffer(?) from this, repeating the same activity endlessly. So it's entirely possible that we can eventually build an experience machine that loops a fun activity and simply prevent the user from ever getting tired of it...which, depending on who you ask, is either perfect or horrifying.
fluffymasterchief what is the disability called?
its called aphantasia. You can read more about what its like to live with it on cracked: www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2026-a-weird-brain-anomaly-took-my-imagination-away.html
I'd take this with a handful of salt but if everything is true, then we can potentially create endless fun or overcome past traumatic experiences. condition is still poorly understood so its not gonna be any time soon though :
i feel like if i knew the experience was fake, i wouldnt plugin. if someone plugged me in witout me knowing what was going on and the world looked exactly the same i would prefer that.
it's like life with hacks and lucky charm for everything, I like this idea.
If it is was another actual reality, what would you choose?
@@legendarytat8278 i would plug in if it was another reality, cuz then it would be real
but isn't that the ignorance is bliss of Betsy
@@spencerlee9395 yes
I always learn more in these types of videos than I do in an entire semester in highschool
The feeling of being alone is one of the best, actually the best feeling I have ever gotten people useally think of this feeling as a bad feeling but you just need to stop and feel your pain sometimes and actually enjoy it. It has gotten me craving this feeling.
"There is no form of pleasure without pain"
-Someone, Sometime
sleet The machine would always offer pleasure, no matter what. Your quote is true in real life but in this hypothesis the concept of not being happy is impossible.
That's simply untrue. Pain and pleasure are not inherently dependent on each, our brains are just built in a way that makes them produce less pleasure after a while, which is why we always need external improvements.
@@nayreel3529 SHUT UP DOGGO .. bad shobe
The word happiness would lose its meaning without saddness
Sleet 2years ago
P L U G M E I N
edit: after posting it sounded soo wrong lol!
Its not wrong, its in its definition that it is a good thing for you, if it weren't it wouldn't give you the pleasure that defines it
He meant that "Plug me in" sounded wrong lmao
Or at least I think so
@@victorgz2907 no everyone 100% thought so except him
@@iamyourproduct5297 That's what makes it funny.
"Zander was romancing her sister Angelica..."
wait a minute, hmmmmmmm.......
Whatcha thinking
And her names Betsy? hmmmmmm….
*sweet home alabama*
"Would you like to know if you were being cheated?"
Not sure this is the correct question to be made on this kind of mental experiment because, when you hear this question, you already experience some level of pain or anger that could cloud your judgment instead of revealing what you would really prefer in a real "not knowing" situation
No. The obvious thing is, that when you hear the question, you obviously would want to know, even if it made you sadder, knowing it and being less happy is more preferable, and hus there's more to our choices and life than just maximising pleasure.
Isnt heaven supposed to be all pleasure and no struggle
If it exists. The thing about the machine is you know it’s real and you know if you plug in you will have endless pleasure. Not saying heavens doesn’t exist, I’m saying we aren’t 100% certain it does
I think heaven has both.
@Javier Clark Just because the damage caused by past pain would be erased doesn't necessarily mean that we won't remember our previous lives. (Of course, we won't know any of this for sure until after death.)
Difference is in this world our pleasure is limited. In heaven every day is bette than the day before it. Cuz once u you have something you’ll eventually get bored of it, in order not to get bored u need something better than the one before it.
how sure are you that heaven is real?
If it means i'd be free from physical pain even on death, i will sign up. People underestimate physical pain until they catch it.
All pain is mental - there are people who have lost parts of their brain and feel no pain
Some people can't stand even a little pain while others laugh off pain that would kill most people
So basically you are then choosing a life without much of a brain
You see brilliant people sometimes going crazy while a dullard will go thru life happy
Guess which way you are going?
@@ramaraksha01 guess which way you're going bud
@@ramaraksha01 All pain is mental but not *ALL* pain is physical, he only ask for physical part not the entire of it.
@@ramaraksha01 u don't have chronic pain do ya buddy?
@@tired690 To me, this is the Life that God created for us - for us Life is a Gift & Hinduism says we can have this Gift over and over
While you say let me run away & hide in a painless land, we think - let us work and find a cure for such pain
Running away works for YOU, but the problem of pain has not gone away & that is what we need to tackle
Yes sometimes life can stink but to me to think we can run away & hide in some magic land in the sky - sit around doing nothing for eternity - is just giving in to fantasies
Why would God have billions of people just sit around doing nothing - an idle, useless and pointless existence for eternity?
Makes no sense
Religions happy to exploit our desire for the easy lazy happy life and telling us what we want to hear, that's all
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering."
From: The Matrix (1999).
If we don't have any problems t solve, there's no real meaning to life for most people. You wouldn't have the drive to better yourself, no ambitions to achieve new things, or acquire new skills because there's no real reward in that. You're already maximum happy, why pursue more things? You would never want to get out of your comfort zone.
@@Hypercube1729 but the reason we even have ambitions and dreams and struggle through life's hardships is to overcome present and future hardships. If we removed hardships altogether, there would be no reason to prepare for any, which poses the question of "is that better?"
Yes...
I would like a life with limitless pleasure.
"You need to taste the salty bits to enjoy the sweet". I hate the salty bits. Plug me in.
yuck, sweet chips or hamburgers? dont plug.
I'd take salt over sweet please
@@pretty948 savory is sm better
I need the salt. Do not plug me in.🙅🏼♀️
The truth is like sunlight people used to think it was good for you
For those of us that say the brain would adapt to certain level of happiness and consider it the new norm: Yes that is what would happen if there were good things of equal value happening to us constantly. But that's because, the dopaminergic (dopamine is a "feel-good" hormone) response in our brain wears off due to being exposed to the same stimulus. So a machine controlling dopamine release could enable a state of permanent happiness, by releasing the same amount of dopamine all the time. Also, the thought experiment is probably intended to make us think about if we really only wanted to be happy.
Personally, I'd switch on that machine anytime, since my experiences would't only be pleasurable but also indistinguishable from reality. Therefore i dont see the problem with a life without pain.
John Smith the brain can get numb to dopamine
www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/03/dopamine-the-unsexy-truth
@CF9417 What do you mean? Life is already meaningless, regardless of what we do or what we become
I couldn’t agree more
The receptors would become immune to dopamine
I’d rather find out and be unhappy, than live a false life ‘cause then the happiness isn’t real. I’d rather have a true life.
you wouldnt know that happiness isnt real
That was the question posed at the end. Does authenticity really matter? If so, why does it matter
@@abdullahimran4624 Our reality isn't authentic anyway. We don't actually experience reality. What we experience is what our senses take from reality.
Think about it, color isn't real. It's just wavelengths. Our brain perceives these different wavelengths as colors. We are living in an illusion created by our brains.
We get the vibes when somebody is cheating on us coz the attention got divided.hence fake relationship wont be that satisfying than the real one in the long run.
If your brain makes it real and believes it then how can it not be real? If I erased your memories would they not be real?
This kind of philosophical question has also been implemented in Cartoons with Maybel in Gravity Falls and with Marcy in Amphibia and both chose for reality over pleasure for their own reasons
explain pls gravity falls
@@chrissyj_ spoiler alert if you havent seen the last episodes of Gravity Falls revolving around Weirdmaggedon
When Bill took over Gravity Falls he knew not only that Mabel would be a threat to his plans but also about her insecurities regarding growing up and changes since she saw (through Wendy and Robbie) how boring and annoying the teenage life is at school and also heard that Ford wants to take Dipper as his Aprentice which would split them up (this brief up is necessary to understand what happens later and why this is tied to the philosophical question)
The Prison Bill made for Mabel is a rainbow like world where everything she wishes comes true, nobody ages, free ice cream etc a perfect world where nobody gets hurt and the only rule is that it’s forbidden to mention reality or calling out that this world is fake. Dipper, trying to get her out of this fake world, gets put to court were he stands infront of Mabel who prefers this fake world over the real world which always left her with pain and suffering. She didn’t want to accept the fact that she has to grow and will experience Pain in any form like separation or disappointment. Dipper comforts her by telling her that it is part of our lifes and that even if these negative experiences happen(ed) they still face(d) them together and managed to turn the tables to make even the worst memory one to cherish (as seen with the mind eraser episode and the society of the blind eye)
Obviously Mabels example isn’t as great as Marcys Example in gravity falls since Marcy kind of got that philosophy all by herself and had to stand for herself and to choose the reality with pain over the fake and perfect world. However despite Mabel needing Dipper to convince her that THEY always managed to get through everything together she still showed her (possibly only) growth (in the show) by telling Dipper that if he wants to be Fords Apprentice that she will no longer stand in between him and his decision which means she learned her lesson and was willing to accept and let go
@@davysamir2289 OHH I REMEMBER
tysm for taking the time to write this and include a spoiler alert for other ppl lol
Another thing to consider, would having endless pleasure make a person become used to that and that being a boring norm?
Probably, yeah.
lets asume that you eont get bored of it as boredome is sort of pain
that tendency to "get used to" emotional states called the hedonic treadmill. I don't think it's meant to apply to this hypothetical
Yeah, I guess that is true that boredom wouldn't factor in. That makes the choice more difficult then.
thats what i thought
As a person with chronic pain, I would love life without pain
My dear sister in humanity, there is a reason for your pain. Allah wants to remove all your sins so then you will have a perfect life in heaven. Believe in One God. check out Islam
@@aminah4239 women don't get anything in Islamic heaven.
@@aminah4239 that won't help the pain tho
There is one point that hasn't been shown. If the life is filled with pleasure, it wouldn't work, as pleasure is relative and the higher it goes, the more pleasure ( by a multiplicative standpoint) is needed for the activity to be pleasurable. For example: spice. Once you get to a certain point, nothing is spicy anymore.
That's what people say anyway. But as NOBODY has ever or could ever (probably) experience the extremes (infinite) then we can only guess based on our middling experiences which may be completely different from the outer edges a universe or several away. Anyway I couldn't watch this so no idea what they say here, just my (uneducated/uninformed) opinion.
I think the flaw in the machine is that it means that we are disconnected from the actual world and thus , are not able to make others lives better , which I is one of the greatest joys in life , finding someone you love and making them feel loved
no thanks, I think i'm done with that. 30 years of nothing changing makes me think it's meaningless.
Exactly.
Saying that we want a world full of pain is like saying that we don't want peace and we like that people are homeless and so on.
If the example would be more like "would you prefer that our world would have only happiness and pleasure or remain as it is now".
How many of us would actually say no?
Everyone of us strive for happiness and pleasure...
But what if pain brings me pleasure…
you are invincible
+Kolev Antonio haha thanks I guess😂😂
apple maps proud of it
I was supposed to ask that.
I was supposed to ask that.
no*
"no pain no gain"
-freshman PE teacher
words to live by...
That's just because the alternative to experiencing now would be to experiencing greater pain later. It doesn't make pain itself good.
SO TAKE OF YOUR COAT YOU SACK OF BLUBBER
So I get a life where everything is good, but the only side effect is that it's not real, BUT I wouldn't know it anyway because my life is all pleasure.
This sounds good tbh...
People who say no to this have never experienced absolute depression/joylessness
This
this reminds me of a bob ross quote
“If you have only dark you have nothing
If you have only light you have nothing”
Yes the harmony of both makes us yo see things both are important
You could add some negative hormones into the machine to maintain the effect of the positive ones in the system but if the net happiness is more then one would assume it's worth it
@@williambyrne5513 But that contradicts the purpose of the machine
@@cowmoo5596 the purpose of the machine is to maximise happiness, the best way to go about that is to maintain the brains reaction to the happiness hormones. people with diabetes' bodies are unable to respond to the glucagon the same thing goes with this
Bru the dudes comment right above u said the same thing
i'd plug into that shit real quick
Dont talk about your mom like that.
Caleb Smith Happiness would be nothing without pain.
I smile - smile, laugh, and cry watching this VDO; a truly master short story and animation.
Let's say you live in the Experience Machine. There is a competition happening and you would like to win it, but you won't be satisfied because you know you'll win because of the machine. In order to make this a positive experience, the EM must make you forget that you are living in the machine (so it can affect your memory/knowledge). Now that you've forgotten, you suddenly have a lack of confidence about the competition and decide not to go. Now the machine has two options:
1) You continue to believe that you are not living in the machine, don't go to the competition, and always have doubts about whether or not you would have won it.
2) The machine reminds you that you are living in a machine and therefore that you will win the competition, taking away the pleasure of succeeding.
Since you may have contradicting pleasures like this, the EM must resolve this conflict for you (so it can affect your decisions). In fact, if lack of ultimate truth brings some amount of displeasure, the EM must either tell you the truth about itself (which we already know leads to contradictions), or it must remove that desire for truth. So, this is a machine which can affect your memory and knowledge, and it can even tell your brain what to derive pleasure from. Thus, you know a priori that this machine does not give you what is pleasurable for you, but rather that it replaces your brain's function with it's own ideal and feeds you that pleasure. Hence your refusal to plug in comes from the fact that the current you would not be happy with the situation your future self will be in, regardless of what your future self might feel. This is simply a human reaction to the future but it does not discount hedonism; rather, it trusts itself to give you pleasure more than it trusts the machine. It does not seek the negative experiences of reality, it attempts to avoid it's perceived negative experience of the machine future. Those that trust the machine will want to plug in, and those that don't trust it to do it's job will not. Look in the comments and you will see that this is true; most people who say they will not plug in argue that the life of only pleasure would lose it's charm and thus would not be pleasurable. This is a lack of trust in the machine to do what it claims. Because the desire to live in reality is in a way rooted in hedonism, it doesn't contradict hedonism, and thus this thought experiment fails in what it's trying to prove.
Alexander Jones Its a very interesting point of view, I hadnt thought about it that way. The way I see it is kinda like you give away your free will once you plug in, you will live your entire life thinking you are in control and without knowing you are in the machine, but actually the machine has already planned out your entire life in a way that it will give you unlimited pleasure until the day you die. So in your race example I would participate and win, I'll think I joined under my own volition but it was all planned by the machine from the start, I dont know if Im explaining myself properly, but thats just how I see it, I liked your explanation as well though.
That's precisely what I'm describing here. The machine will take away your free will and give you pleasure in it's own calculated way. While you are living in the machine, you will be experiencing great pleasure, but your current conscious self can't imagine that to be the case, so your instinct is to say no in order to preserve your current ideal of pleasure.
Alexander Jones The thing is, knowing that I can't lose would make it better.
Alexander Jones If the machine were perfect as the scientists say it would be, wouldn't it foresee this event and prevent it from happening?
I agree with you nick, of course its impossible to find such a machine, but in the hypothetical scenario they present i honestly dont understand why anybody wouldnt take it. Some may say they cant find happyness that way or whatever but the machine will literally set everything up to please your own perspective of joy, happiness and pleasure. but thats just me.
To the people who says this machine will numb your brain to happiness, this machine of course takes account of that. The machine can easily calculate whether to simply maximize your happiness now, or give it out little by little to not overwhelm your brain. If you think pain makes pleasure feel better, you're simply wrong; because even your "better" experience can be replicated by higher pleasure; thus making pain useless in this regard. For the people who argues that we will always strive for more, that desire will always be constantly met for the duration of your life.
Now, given all that, would you still not sign up for the machine? Why not?
“If good things lasted forever, would we appreciate how precious they are?” -Bill Watterson
That is the most horrible way of living life I've ever heard of. An eternal life with just pleasure? That's not life. That's just taking advanced drugs. You're just living in blissful ignorance. And if you say that Ignorance is bliss and there's nothing wrong with it, well I have nothing else to say.
Honestly, because it's not reality. Plus it's selfish to do so. If I hooked myself up to a machine for all the pleasure in the world, what would happen to the people I cared about in real life? A simulation doesn't fix that. They would suffer. With the knowledge that the "perfect reality" is false, people would know that they aren't truly being with the people they love and care about. They would need to convince themselves that the simulation is reality or they do not care for reality (or the people in it, either one). However, I do see the simulation working if the person in it didn't know that it was a lie. Or the person didn't have any loved ones. Or were in a state of extreme depression and/or loneliness
I like that woohoo
that seems boring to me tbh.
@@SKAron25 What's wrong with drugs? The reason drugs are considered bad is because of the negative effects they have, living in pure pleasure forever has no negative effects
I feel like experiencing sadness once in a while makes you appreciate the happy times more, if it’s always a happy time then you wouldn’t appreciate it unless you’ve been through worse
This reminded me of a documentary I saw some years ago, the documentary as a whole was about consumerism in Sweden, if I remember correctly, and they interviewed a group of hedonists living in a forest. The group of hedonists said that they had never been happier and that everything was a joy, but they also looked so extremely tired and bored, and their voices sounded like they were going to start crying any second. I think they all had some baggage that led them to the life of self-proclaimed hedonists, and instead of trying to accept their baggage they just pretended that the baggage didn't exist, so all of them were probably on the brink of break down.
Edit: I didn’t remember correctly, the documentary was about independence, welfare, and love (mostly familial love) and it was called The Swedish Theory of Love.
@@murph_mustela I remembered incorrectly, it wasn’t about consumerism, it was about independence, welfare, and love (mostly familial love) and it was called The Swedish Theory of Love. I don’t remember how accurate I thought that it was (after all, I’m a Swede living in Sweden), but I do remember that it did have some interesting information, mostly the parts about happiness, or rather unhappiness.
@@murph_mustela I looked up the documentary you mentioned, it’s the same director.
It depends on what each person defines as pleasure.
I've read some stuff about an object that transports people into a world/space where they don't need to eat, sleep, get tired and anything they can think of can become "real" in this space.
sounds amazing
Pretty sure that’s called a magic mushroom.
Agent Smith: "Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program."
I'll take that red pill, thanks.
blue pill thank
Human beings define their reality through misery and suffering a perfect world your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from
Yes but the first Matrix was a pleasure world where everyone was plugged in. But in this scenario a person connects to his own pleasure world so that he can make whatever he want like marrying with a girl he loves even if she doesnt love him. You can’t do that in Matrix because people still have human mind and their own thoughts.
iam2strong I use to love dreams of being the hero and having the love of my life. Nowadays those dreams are nightmares because it reminds me of a self that is not truly me. It’s a life that I don’t deserve and it only reminds me all the mistakes I’ve made.
This is my take on it.
I mean, very good got connecting the 2 but it’s not like it’s true just because Agent Smith said it LOL. And remember, the first matrix never failed, because it’s a movie and none of it ever happened
We all want pleasure with no pain, but you can’t have a rainbow without rain
If so, why not neither? Is feeling nothing also a form of pain?
@@renegadesofanarchy289 there’s no such thing as nothing. You can’t experience nothing because the very act of existing is the antithesis of nothing.
@@jordanz4264 Ok, well why not, the least amount of pain possible?
Infinite Tsukuyomi
I like having pain. I learn that way and I end up treasuring my moments of happiness even more because of my past pain. Also endless pleasure would get boring for me after awhile.
I think if the simulation was good enough, was perfect, it would give you little or fake downs to make you appreciate the ups far more, because lots of happiness is from when you FEEL like you deserve it. What I’m trying to say is that the simulation should make feel the feeling of deserving happiness without the pain or most of it anyway
But you like pain, so wouldn’t the boredom be good? Because boredom is a form of pain
An example of this is when squidward (from spongebob) move away from his old house to a neighborhood that is entirely made out of people like him that shares the same interest and everything. He start off happy but soon got depressed after doing the same thing that he used to find enjoyable, every single day.
No, it's different. If it was an example, squidward would not be able to feel depression, since it's a negative emotion, the whole point of the machine being to maximize pleasure.
@@festerdam4548 until that "maximum pleasure" is normalized and becomes boring. "Infinite pleasure" doesn't exist
No connections would be truly real and authentic, it would be unrealistic and plus I want negative experiences. I want them because they make the good even better to me. And plus, imagine the feelings of the people in your life you left behind. Sure, the the experience maching you would never feel bad, but does that compare to feeling better? It's up to you
think I'm already hooked to this machine!
The loophole is that you'd eventually become truly omnipotent as that would be the only way to go up.
Not necessarily. After all, you're only promised pleasure for the rest of your life. The machine could either space out the up ticks in pleasure so you die before you reach omnipotence, or the machine operators could kill you when they can no longer make your existence more pleasurable.
Benjamin Grist There is also thought, memory and emotion control.
some infinites are smaller than others. even if it WASNT just the rest of your life and it was eternally, there is no guarantee any infinite sequence of greater and greater pleasure would lead to omnipotence
You could be omnipotent withing the machine only tho
"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." To know pleasure, one must know pain, and pain sometimes leads to greater outcomes than immediate pleasure would.
The greatest pleasure are only narrowly separated from disgust - Cicero
Loved this when I read. Has a deep meaning
“If you get everything you want the moment you want it, what’s the point of living?” - Jake the dog
Ask { North Korean dictator } #KimJongUn 👹🇰🇵 . 🤷🇦🇺🇳🇴
There is no point. Life is pointless.
counterpoint: having lived a life of near-complete deprivation, why wouldn't you take an opportunity like this?
I think there is a reason we have pain in the first place. There is simply not a way of living life without encountering pain. But I also think that’s what make us really appreciate the happiness
Fair enough
Yeah might be true in the real world but that was a machine so it would guarantee to keep your pleasure level high always. It's a hypothetical situation and it would be the better option according to me
To me, having pleasure all the time is not worth it. I would rather face reality as, yeah it is painful but it teaches us to not take those little moments of joy for granted.
Small moments of joy are... well small moments of joy. Isn't it better to have joy and even greater joy instead of pain and some joy.
Darth Mortus but here is the thing.many people especially those of my generation (the millennials) take everything for granted.what I meant was yeah have all thepleasure and joy you want but don't be oblivious to pain. because weather we like it or not pain exists in some shape or form. but pain does not last forever, stay strong and you may even find joy within hard times.
Flora Manzano Agreed. Though we were talking about different things it seems, I was mostly focusing on the scenario and you on real life.
Flora Manzano Z
I also agree
There is no pleasure without pain as a direct contrast to define it.
Definition is one thing, experience other. There can be joy without misery, you just wouldn't know that it's joy, but you'd still feel it.
My only problem is that I actually find pain from sadness pleasurable in a way that if I would never feel it again I'd feel like I'm missing out, but any other pain? Yeah please take that away from me please please
I mean, this was also in the matrix. “I know that this steak isn’t real, but I can feel it!” Or “Ignorance is bliss” which is completely true. The guy is right to want to live a pleasured life. His method were extreme, but he was technically in the right.
The Matrix probably borrowed from this philosopher
Not really. A life of only pleasure means you don't know pain or pleasure. If you lived only in the dark, then you can't comprehend light and darkness. Yeah, you live in the darkness, but you have no way to compare it with anything because that you never seen daylight before. The matrix is knowledge vs ignorance. Do you prefer to live with knowledge of something bad happening, or live without worry.
Too lazy to read the above?
Knowing only pleasure means you don't know pleasure or pain. The matrix isn't like that. It is knowledge vs ignorance which is vastly different.
Yeah, I guess you’re right. I felt like a cult leader when I read my comment again. That being said, it said you could choose to plug yourself in. Meaning you already know what pain is beforehand. So I would still choose to plug in.
@Volf Khat You're right. They aren't born in there. I'd say that a life without pain would still rub on them though. They know these things, which makes it worse. Conflict, hardship, and pain are what makes life feel like life and not dull and boring. Have you played a video game or watched a video to death? It gets boring. I feel like it would be the same without some pain, conflict, and hardship. Of course, this is my opinion which is -always correct- only what I think. You can think what you want to think.
A recent viewing of the matrix made me more sympathetic to Cypher
If they don't know pain, then how would they know pleasure?
They dont need to know pleasure because the machine injects them with it
@@penapickle imagine if u grew up rich and spoiled, you would never know the value of money. but one day you end up penniless on the streets, and decide to work hard to earn money. the moment u earn a dollar it will feel more valuable than the millions of dollars u wasted when u were rich and spoiled.
@@gunsgirlz9829 But in this reality that would never happen, you would only have increasingly pleasurable experiences and nothing else.
Pedro Duschitz Costa meaning you could never really understand the joy of having that money. You would only ever just be going through the motions.
@@friendlyneighborhoodcrackh6059 But, you would never know that. Reality can be subjective and igroance is bliss.
i think an important question is “what counts as a REAL experience?” if we’re plugged into the matrix for endless happiness, what makes that any less real if we experience it all the same
This animation was fantastically creative
+
Rather than love, money, fame, give me the truth.
- Henry David Thoreau
Cesar Alcaraz it helps some feel in control or even take control of their own lives
@@machixius That's Great! how I arrive at it is that, Truth = integrity. Integrity is the foundation of every structure. Such is also the lesson from Astrology.
Designer ProPHECY preach
"Keep the fame, keep the love, just give me the loyalty" - 21 Savage
_atomic_ _atomic_ ah, finally some man who appreciates true wisdom, well said bro
Video: proposes an interesting philosophical quandary*
Yall: *oMg WaS tHaT a HaMiLtOn ReFeReNcE?!?!*
..what
cats yes this guy is reaching
What's hamilton
Darkerdays oml me too. That’s exactly why I went to the comments to see if anyone else thought of Hamilton.
@@velcranoxofficials9970 It's a musical
I would still plug myself in. to be honest, even if a situation such as what was depicted (betsy and her cheating husband) the machine would never reveal anything that could hurt me or any fake relationships I may form in the process, as it would contradict what the machine was designed for.
"Sleep is good, death is better, but of course the best thing would to have never been born at all."
-Heinrich Heine
THIS^
*gets rejected*
(Sees this in recommendations)
That *just happened to me*
Unbelievable
Me too!
Cool
omg me too
The problem isn’t getting rejected. The problem is getting rejected every time and then having to put an ‘act’ to your fake happiness just to still play the game. Then when it feels like its going somewhere, you get shocked and either cannot believe it and butcher it or you’re too tired to keep acting because it is only a slim chance that it may work.
If someone spends many hours of their day browsing the internet or playing video games, then, regardless of what they say, their actions already speak to the fact that they would reject reality in favor of a pleasure machine. In fact, I think most of us would plug into the pleasure machine if it was readily available and it was commonplace for people to do it. The strangeness of such a machine to us currently and the perception that we all "chose" reality biases most people to the question. If people before the computer age were asked if they would choose to spend most of their free time watching moving images on a screen they would also probably say, "No way! Who would choose pictures when the real thing is just outside! That would get old super fast and just be boring! I choose reality!"
the only truly insightful comment on this video
*fistbump*
Ok boomer
Agreed
@mozamioo _ that means, we're the escapist generation
i have borderline personality disorder which makes even the smallest unfortunate event feel extreme and physically+emotionally painful. of course i would live the life of pleasure.
You know i thought about this for a while. When people go to church or believe in heaven, what they kinda believe in is eternal bliss and that means no pain. So most people whether they like it or not have opted for the Experience Machine in future. If everybody wants to get into heaven then technically they believe in a life with Eternal Happiness is the best thing that could happen to them, always rejoicing and ever going higher in their enjoyment.
"Romancing her sister Angelica"
hmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMM
I love this
With love letters
wITH A COMMA AFTER DEAREST
Betsy and Zander= Elizabeth and Alexander
hMMMMMMMM
so it says, “My dearest, Angelica“...
Anyway, all this to say,!
Betsy and her sister named Angelica and her cheating dude named Xander? So... Elizabeth, Angelica, and Alexander. I think whoever made this might be a Hamilton fan...
Yes! I'm glad someone else noticed it!
P.S., your username is golden!
+slut4berniesanders That's exactly what I was thinking!!
+slut4berniesanders I wonder if one of Xander's love letters to Angelica called her "my dearest, Angelica"
Even with the Experience Machine, Xander will never be satisfied.
A life is perfect in the harmony of Yin and Yang ☯️...
the joke is there's no such harmony in most peoples' lives.
The first of the Buddha's Four Noble Truths is the truth of suffering-a truth we can either reject or accept as an inevitable part of being human. And when we learn to accept, even embrace, difficult experiences, our suffering becomes a tool, an instrument, for growth. - Tal Ben-Shahar
plug me into the matrix BOYYYY
I am the ONE
If you're so selfish you don't care that you're basically dead to everyone else you've ever met.
Yeah, I'm fun at parties