Benny Morris says there was not a "master plan" of expulsion. The "master plan" that was equivalent to expuslion was the Isreali policy of not permitting those who had left their homes for any reason (mostly to get out of the way of the war) to return to their homes. It amounts to exactly the same thing.
1.) Arab villages that entered into official or unofficial non-aggression pacts with Israel were untouched. Hence, the 2M Arabs living in Israel today. 2.) You are conflating results and causes. The results may be the same for a whole host of causes, but that doesn’t mean the causes are interchangeable. Essentially, you’re claiming if x, then y; if z, then y; therefore x=z. This is illogical.
Weird that Zionists who are born around the world but Israel and may not even have any family in israrl are all allowed to have citizenship there only because they are zionist jews, crazy. However NO Palestinians are ALLOWED to return.
@@joge24681. Actually thats false. Example here is the Deir Yassin massacre. The muslim inhabitants of Deir Yassin had a non-belligerency pact with the jewish inhabitants and even collaborated with them and the Haganah. Nonetheless they still were expelled and killed. Not by the Haganah, but by the Irgun and the Stern Gang, so the Haganah could claim uninvolvement in this explusion
48.00: he does not sound so trustworthy when he says that “Palestinians are always complaining and pushing their grievances instead of some of the good things that has happened to them as well”!!
@@Carstininvestments exactly!! 👍 One quite important thing I’ve been made aware of and seen countless of examples of is: That very often - when you listen to a Zionist talk - and you notice something that seems to be a lie about different kinds of atrocities that Hamas or other of the enemies to Israel according to him allegedly have done: 1. The person never provides real trustworthy evidence 2. - and “funny enough” - the nature of those alleged crimes: ARE BRUTAL ATROCITIES THAT IDF HAVE DONE THEMSELVES in other conflicts!!!
@@Carstininvestments The Palestinians (Really just Arabs ) attack the Jews ,lose the war and claim victimhood. They do this several times with the same result. World champions at "pushing their grievances on the world ".
No he has a point. The Palestinians have an unhealthy lost cause fixation on past defeats not dissimilar to the American South with the Civil War. This grossly one sided narrative which ignores the Holocaust and antisemitism is built into Palestinian narratives in their media and education systems. It's unhealthy and is a factor in the perpetuation of this conflict.
Talking about Gaza he kept mentioning Khamas… Why not asking him about the West Bank and the settlers violence and settlement expansion. Also about the 2 states solution, what 2 states when the Palestinians lost almost all of their land???
Mr Morris does not mention that Israel controls Gaza's border with Egypt also. Israel controls all material that enters Gaza from Egypt even entry food or medicine Material from Egypt was always inspected and controlled (cement, construction material for instance is not allowed). Israel does not mind Palestinians leaving Gaza but they will not be allowed back in. Gaza may not be a concentration camp; it is more like the Warsaw Ghetto. Nazis also allowed food and water into the Warsaw ghetto, but the amount was strictly controlled just like Israel controls the amount. As the Israel government itself has said, it wants to keep inhabitants of Gaza on a 'diet'.
Jews in Warsaw Ghetto won't fire rockets into Germany and consider destroying Germany. PA controlled the whole Egyptian border till 2005 with just Israeli video control. They stricted the conditions after Hamas came to power
Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto is ahistorical for two simple reasons: Gaza is self-governing and receives tens of millions of dollars in aid every year.
@@joge2468 The Warsaw Ghetto was run by the Jewish Council headed by Adam Czerniaków. But you are right Zionists are much, much better than the Nazis, although Israel has always controlled all people and goods that enter or leave Gaza.
Rafah crossing was controlled by Egypt before the current war. How many Poles and Germans were killed by inhabitants of Warsaw ghetto before it's creation? Did Jews kill any Polish and German civilians intentionally during the uprising? Why did almost all Warsaw ghetto inhabitants die, while Gazan population has been constantly growing over the years? Do not dare to compare Warsaw ghetto and Gaza
51:14Your question was quite clear. You didn't refer only to good Palestinian historians, but also to good Israeli ones. Morris' answer was very precise with regard to the Palestinians, but he didn't say a word about good Israeli historians who oppose his position. There is also a suspicious cut in the continuity of the video at 58:08 and then you move on to another topic. Could you explain to us why you did not insist that Morris mention historians he considers good but who disagree with his position? Because it is clear that for Morris Pappe and Finkelstein are not good historians because they falsify or misinterpret the data they use to justify their positions.
Obviously, he would consider any historian who disagrees with his position as not particularly "good". Finkelstilskin is not an historian, and Pappe presents a strong bias by exaggerating Arab issues and downplaying Jew issues. I think the point he was making is that there is a real danger for Palestinians to express a pro-Israel, or even neutral opinion, whereas Jews can and do criticise each other.
He was asked the same question before (when interviewed by Destiny I believe), and he said Avi Shlaim is someone he regarded as a serious historian who he disagrees with, in contrast to Pappe and Finkelstein. I haven't seen much of Pappe but I don't think anyone with the slightest integrity can take Finkelstein seriously.
@@bencohen1644 "Most Zionists don't believe that God exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine" Ilan Pappe. One cannot take such a statement seriously.
Morris would also have made a good slave owner, because he probably would have also characterized Slaves as constantly bringing their grievances instead of just enjoying their enslavement and the 'good' things that happened to them during slavery
Right at the introduction, he *inserts the notion that there can be such a thing as a good reason, or a justification, of mass slaughter. I can’t see how there is anything more to learn from this man once that premise has been established. *he asserts it by negation in his definition of genocide. 8:14 here we have Lockean warrant to settle the land better than the savages. 20:48 Robinson asks how to distinguish fact from fiction, Benny diverts to distinguish historians from propagandists. 30:14 culmination of a whataboutism. 31:57 diagnosis of Arab-world as “failed societies” 33:47 Robinson: “there is a religious element” , “there is a historical element” , “then there’s the holocaust”; “I’m wondering how you weight these historically and in the contemporary” 35:11 - 39:41 Benny “Jews spent 2000 years reciting their intent to ‘regain sovereignty’, to this was added nationalism, this led to two issues: keeping up with joneses, generic need to protect selves from antisemitism 39:54 Robinson: “this in mind, how do you answer calls for disestablishment of Israel?” 40:06 Benny: “firstly, this is genocide.” 40:51 equivocates “Palestine will be free” with “get rid of all Jews” 41:24 Benny: “why should Jews not have a state of their own?” 42:24 conflates “the Arabs” with Hamas 43:01 “why can’t Jews conquer?” “Jews conquered it in 1948” 47:46 Benny avoids Finklestein’s “open air prison” by… arguing the Palestinians didn’t have it so bad 47:56 loses track of his argument in favor of complaining that Palestinians complain instead of being grateful for what Israel gives them. 52:27 “the definition of a historian is dependent on what I define as the definition of a historian.” 54:31 “Arabs can’t be historians because all Arab states are dictatorships.” “Arabs do think in self-critical terms.” “Palestinians … write uncritically and are therefore not historians.” 56:47 “Israeli historians live under democracy therefore can write critically” Bear in mind, at 54:22 Robinson doesn’t ask what Benny answered. Benny fails to say, “no there aren’t any legitimate Arab historians.” Benny resorts to setting the terms of legitimacy. Note: Benny fails to indict non-Arab state (presumably democratic citizens) historians on similar charges; this logic wouldn’t allow it. Earlier he anticipates the argument by invoking the distance between Israel and “New York” as a means of explaining why one might have an oppositional position to his arguments. In Benny’s universe, the only legitimate historian is one Benny agrees with. 1:03:06 collateral damage argument 1:03:33 Israel is only a little bit an apartheid state but only a little bit. Israel dabbles in apartheid. It’s apartheid-curious. But to suggest Israel is an apartheid state is totally ridiculous. It’s sort of true but totally ridiculous.
We dont wright History but we did not let the Roman kick us out and enslave us 2000 years and rape our women and Daughters we kicked The Romans out Palestina syria libanon Jordan and Parts of Anatolia we dont have critical thinking according you If Jews say they are kicked out their land by Romans ghey insulting their forfather and accuse them for traitors and cowards Not like Arabs they know victory or die in the battlefield But on the other side not all Jews leave Filistea 2000 yeas ago the farmers and peasant stay and are the Palestinians Palestinians have Hebrew forfathers According a Geneticus from Israel Ariella oppenheim
@@cropframe So what? He is a Political Scientist with more in-depth knowledge of Israel/Palestine them even most of the Israeli Hebrew speaking historians. Look at my comment above to see the debate between Finkelstein and Morris. You'll learn a lot.
thats because In Israel arabs live with full rights as citizens. The apartheid like conditions are when discussing the situation in the West Bank which is occupied by Israel - while at the same time not being a nation. It was occupied by Israel when it belonged to Jordan..... but Jordan surrendered that territory. its a very strange situation
Professor Morris has strong arguments , yet he discredits too easily different arguments coming from the historical analysis coming from Palestinian scholars. I still would like to hear more about it.
The idea that no other Air Force warns of attack is a historic and surprising coming from a historian because it’s so obviously untrue. The most recent bombardment of Israel by Iran that was declared 72 hours in advance comes to mind but of course this interview was given before that event. Nevertheless the US used this approach in various bombing campaigns in Iraq. The Japanese were also warned by way of leaflet drops in WW2 that they should evacuate various cities that were to be bombed. Indeed even international law requires warning of imminent attack if civilians are at risk. These norms are represented in some of the earliest documents that attempt to codify humanitarian law as early as 1862 in the Lieber Code. The idea that this practice is unique to the IDF is just dumb.
The US didn't warn Hanoi when they started operation Linebreaker 2. The Allies didn't drop leaflets before they bomb German city. The Coalition force didn't use roof-knocking when they started bombing Mosul and ISIS.
Always a breath of fresh air to listen to Morris. The interviewer had some trouble staying objective, but did his best. I appreciate his willingness to listen to different sides.
@@smokingred5813 He literally argued with Morris about the contents of his own book. Finkelstilskin is a hack, and not a nice person. Mouin is a gentleman though.
I really like Benny Morris. He changed my outlook on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on his objectivity, fairness, and thorough knowledge of the subject.
I mean they do have to deal with the equivelent of it which is missels. What it does it create a pretense for hatred, dehumanisation and calls for further violence. Which is basically the same thing happening on the Palestinian side. And thus the cycle continues.
@@UnicornzMilk one of the most naive things imaginable is believing that Israel doesn’t do terrorism and that they are trying to end the cycle of violence
@@Dudemeister I don't think the leaders on either side have an incentive to end the violence, because it keeps them in power. But justifying violence, war and terrorism it what keeps those same things going. At the end it's the civilians who suffer while the leaders live in luxury. Please attempt to be empathetic to civilians on both sides who are completely traumatised by this war and call against any and all violence.
Is Israel committing genocide, Morris seems to answer that question in the affirmative without realizing it. "Mass killing of a people by another people without good reason or no good reason at all"... 200 doctors dead, 24 hospitals blown up, 120 ambulances destroyed many with the crews inside. Now what makes it interesting is that the IDF published a few weeks back that it had medevac'd over 500 wounded IDF and that none of their helicopters came under fire. And what's interesting still, is that there a a number of videos on Arab channels showing Palestinian fighters/snipers video taping some of these helicopters and they clearly could engage but did not... How is it these terrorists show restraint when the IDF shows none at all, seems like an indication of a Genocide. What's clear, listening to historians is like reading statistics, you can make the numbers say whatever you need to sell your point. I prefer hard math...
Just wanted to point out that the audio seems a little off in this video. The sound is either slightly deeper in pitch than usual or slightly slower than usual or both. Otherwise, great video video as usual!!
My great-great grand parents were forced out of Ireland. I guess I can go back and take some land, wonderful! No one is calling for mass murder of the Jews. What about the principles of democracty? One person, one vote, equal rights.
There are 9 million citizens of Israel, 2M of whom are some variation of Arab -- muslim, druze, christian, bedouin, etc. Every one of them has an equal vote to that of any other Israeli. The Arabs in Israel have political parties, hold political offices, sit in the Knesset, are police officers and supreme court judges. There are more Arab doctors in Israel than Jewish doctors. The Palestinians in the territories hold their own elections. That's how we got Hamas and the PA.
You pretend to be misinformed but for sure you aren't. You know too well that the slogan "free Palestine" means genocide the Jews and for that reason you support it. Your generation's antisemitism and hypocrisy aren't different than the generation that perpetrated the Holocaust the only difference that Israel exist so gone are the days that you could shove millions of Jews to mass graves.
Yes, Israel is a democracy and all its citizens have equal rights under the law. The West-Bank was never annexed into Israel, that is why different laws apply. This is a problem that nobody thought would come to be, because Israel thought that a viable land-for-peace deal or a Palestinian state would actually be agreed to. Unfortunately this hasn’t happened. A peace with Jordan was signed, and the West-Bank remained in its strange status. And the a treaty with the Palestinians was signed, but Arafat and the PLO did not chose to actually establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel, that is why there is no solution to this problem yet
You intend this as mocking Zionism, but this is the literal position of the Palestinians today, that everyone descended from someone kicked out in 1948 has an absolute right of return today and for ever.
@@jalemairliha So...this wonderful country of Israel has the right to cut off food, water, electricity, control other people in their land...WTF??? If you were a Palestinian, living in Gaza or West Bank...you would not be making this comment.
See Jews Like Him have lost their minds Palestinians should talk about the good things they have even though they're held hostage no one in and no one out
Out of the four talks on the Israeli Palestine conflict you've had thus far this was, in my opinion, the best. Not just by a little either, but by a wide margin. Frankly, I didnt really enjoy the other three very much. They all just got a bit too deeply polarized and off topic for my taste. For example, going on and on about how during their time at university they felt xyz side of the political spectrum was trying to keep them out of the conversation etc... That kind of stuff just isnt relevant to the discission of whats going on in gaza right now, and what what should be done about it. This conversation however, wasnt like the other three at all. You guys stayed much more on topic, and kept things much more academic. I felt like I learned a lot about the history of the conflict, and I really appreciate that. Anyways great job! I'm looking forward to see how the next couple discussions on the topic turn out.
You certainly learned plenty of Zionist propaganda. The fact that he says a genocide is only what happened to the Jews is about all you need to know to see the bias here
@@simulacrum.ad.nauseam no it is not. To be clear, I am not Jewish, I do not support the state of israel either in this conflict or more generally, I do not think it was a good idea to create the state of Israel, and I think that an accurate way to describe Israel would be apartheid state. I don't necessarily like Morris, or agree with him on basically anything. I made the above comment because I liked the conversation more than I liked the other conversations Robinson had at that time had with other guests, not because I liked the guest, or the opinions presented.
Thanks for hosting Benny Problem. Read his book on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem. Was good to hear his answers about genocide and Apartheid. He acknowledged that a form of apartheid did exist in the West Bank.
Robinson thank you so much for your liberal values. Allowing a crude propagandist the time to explain away the torture and slaughter of a defenceless population by the most humane army in the world. How noble. ❤
@@captainbeefheart5815 The vast majority of deaths are innocent Palestinians, poor people slaughtered by the most hight tech army in the world. Under international law, this high tech killing machine illegally occupies Palestinian land. Why? What's your point?
@@captainbeefheart5815And because 50% of Gaza's population are children, they are very much the victims. But the IDF carries on the slaughter regardless.
The roof-knock missiles have penetrated roofs and if I'm not mistaken even a top floor and has killed at least one human. It's absurd to assume it won't kill anyone. Also, it's not very common that they get more than a few minutes to leave the building before the JDAM missile bombs the building.
Thank you for having Benny Morris on this show. I really enjoy listening to your podcast but have found the Israel-Palestine conversations to be rather one sided in the choice of guests.
Yes. It's very important to invite on guests who explain away the mass torture and slaughter of innocent people. Free speech is important. Liberal values are important. Censorship is bad. Settler colonialism, apartheid, collective punishment and war crimes have defenders and their voices must be heard. Balance is very important. Especially when Morris is constantly being invited on MSM.
@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv Like Finkelstein? If I recall his first reaction was to deny the atrocities of the seventh of October until he could verify them. Yet the statistics about the civilian casualties in Gaza are taken as gospel? I like to think in good faith: that we’re all doing the best we can. It is very clear to me however that there is prejudice from some (and ignorance from many) on the pro-Palestinian side towards Jews.
@@noahlibra Finkelstein is Jewish. Chomsky is Jewish. Max Blumenthal is Jewish. Aaron Mate is Jewish. Katie Halper is Jewish. Illan Pappe is Jewish. You are confusing or conflating Jews, many of whom have very different opinions, with pro apartheid, pro settler colonialism, pro ethnostate, pro Occupation Zionists. It's really very simple.
I think Benny has a lot of credibility... better than any other Israel-Palestine historian. Palestinian/American professor Rashid Khalifa disappointed me early after October 7. He said he had a credible relative working for UNWRA and there was no evidence of tunnels under Gazan schools, hospitals, houses, etc. What total BS. This is an example of Benny saying anyone with PalestinianArab ties, even if in a western country, has to be careful to not piss off fellow Palestinian/Arabs. I also liked it when Benny said there were around 25 Arab countries that the Gazans could go to (... but no one wants them), while were else can the Jewish Israelis go to in the Middle East or other countries? Most people forget that many Jews living in Israel did not come from Europe; they came from North Africa, Ethiopia, Yemen, etc.
Dude you have to push back. The role of the west on the existence Israel after www2 is a way to contextualize the construction of Israel, which characterizes Israel as a western colonial project imposed upon the Palestinians, and the region. Furthermore the existence of the Israeli is a vehicle for control of West Asia for US hegemony, and its construction and continual existence is utterly dependent on US weapons, political cover, and capital flows from wealthy jews in the US and Europe. this state of affairs has all the characteristics of a parasitic entity. As to the dismantling of Israel as an Zionist apartheid state, the physical extermination of people is not a necessity, merely its isolation from the global economy through UN sanctions would result in its reconfiguration, apartheid South Africa is an example, the smallness of Israel makes it even more vulnerable. If only the UN was a functioning institution. At the beginning of the interview, with this quibbling of numbers of expelled Palestinians by the Nakba was terrible. Even if it was JUST 500,000 people it is still a crime that sanctions Israel as a Pariah, all you did is give air to justification of this colonial project by posing the usual trope that the land was empty, which has applied to the construction of settler colonial projects throughout human history. Also to go to all the way back to the dissolution of the Jewish states by the Romans in the 2nd century is not a historical precedent to justify Zionism, I know that he was trying to explain Zionism, but this guy is zionist thus it is a tacit justification and so just coverf, the Romans state does not exist anymore, this is a mute point. There is more I could have said, but this message is already too long. I'm not historian by profession and from the top of my head I could have come up with these points to push back on this Zionist, with a little research and as a professional UA-camr you should have done much. This was a Puff piece, Benny must have been laughing his head off at the end of the interview. Disappointing....
Benny Morrison's reasoning is very confused, in particular where are 7 million Jews supposed to go? He simply forgets that the vast majority are dual citizens. They can simply go back to where they came from in the last 75 years.... Basically, he knows very well that there is no real reason that would justify a Jewish state on Palestinian land after 2000 years of absence. - Sad but true.
Most Israelis do not hold dual citizenship - wiki is free. Half of all Palestinians do hold a citizenship, a Jordanian one, and another part live in Syria and Lebanon for generations - so, it is logical for them to stay in these countries + WB, Gaza and Israel.
🤣 65% of the Jews in Izz are from ME and N African countries. With one bird, I kill two stones: Jews have had a continuous presence in all now-Arab lands since before Islam. None of these countries have any Jews left because they were exiled or fled. Also, the reason dual citizens retain their other nationality is so they can travel freely. Most Arab countries do not permit Israelis to even visit, let alone return.
Your reasoning is the confusing one. What happened in the last 75 years? It's called the Holocaust. It's not like most Jews living happily in Europe just decided to move to Israel out of nowhere, even though they indeed had the yearning to return to their homeland. The holocaust happened, Jews realized most other countries are just temporary houses, their home is in Israel. You may as well nuke the place and wipe every Jews from history if you hate them that much. But you'd better be fast because Iran is also on it.
stop taqiyya, please..most pro-paletinian movement is fake its financed by terror states China, Russia, Iran , Qatar...the rest of propaganda is pushed by Imamas in mosque Palestine starts with letter P,,,name letter p in arab Alpha , bet...there is no...hence the real Palestine is Balestine or BS ana Balesstini
My man Robinson keeps us human. Reminds us of our collective humanity. “Useful” to gain differing views, even cruelly partisan and painful ones, where cognitive dissonance reigns supreme and opinions are diametrically opposed and extremely painfully polarised. building fragile trust, together we grope in darkness for understanding in the seemingly futile absurdity of a senseless life painfully and paradoxically , hopefully captured in the myth of Sisyphus and Camus interpretation. The murderous brutality and yet winsome gentleness of life.We are drawn together in our utterly hopeless and yet insanely hopeful project of an attempted shared humanity. Yet we are imprisoned by this painful humanity. Pins🐈
@@cropframeyou miss my point entirely. It’s about embracing compassion and a passion for truth. Our shared humanity is at stake. We are spiralling into a brutish , crass world from which we will never fully recover what it means to be a human being, sans all the social conditioning and BS that in our present state defines our pathetic attempts at being fully human. Feynman said “when you are talking you are not learning”. We perhaps need to learn what being a human being entails, acknowledge hubris and untruths honestly, sans cultural and social conditioning. . “Certain” emotional voids undergirded by glaring untruths , fudging history and bigotry are as crass asf.
@@bernardofitzpatrick5403 you think that allied actions in WW2 was a violation of common humanity? Israel is not doing anything different than anti-German coalition was
The problem with these cerebral discussions on important issues is that they become overly involved in the past history of the conflict and not on the current actions that more directly affect future outcomes. Even when discussing the history of this ancient problem, there is no clear consensus on the facts. Historians have disparate understandings of the events that are agreed on, and so their conclusions and predictions don’t easily accommodate each other. The current situation, however, is undeniable and the steps that must be taken to resolve it clearly visible for all to see. First, the killing must stop and the principals must commit to its just resolution. Due to the monumental difference in the relative strength and resources of the two parties, the international community must also commit to a process that guarantees a just implementation of any resolution. Problems of this nature were what the United Nations was created to solve, it’s time that member states invested the resources necessary to finally accomplish this vision.
Palestine is a Farsi word/name "پا و دستان - paa-va-dastan" which means legs and hands for work building homes. Disciple is "دست [و] پا دار - dast-o-paadar" which means "having [skilled] hands and legs".Cross/Christ is "کار است - kaar-ast" which means "It is the work [which determines the ownership of a home, the one who built it]. At that time everyone except a few who claimed the ownership of all lands and water passed to them by their ancestors, everybody else were homeless, trespassers and slaves to the landlord. Palestinians were the workers who helped Eesa Messiah (Jesus) build homes using wood in the form of Cross as the joints of the structure making permanent residence. Disciples were the skilled worker/foreman.
What does Netanyahu have to do with any of these people? There is literally not a single comparison between them. Complete nonsense. Like wtf… they don’t even got the same ranks and power in terms of leadership
You mean what happens to countries that aren't inclined to the worldview that planet earth exist only for Muslims to conquer and impose Islam? OPEC oil embargo ring any bells?
So far we Robinson let a bunch of not historians rant about Israel : Norman F (not a historian), Wolf (not a hisotrian), two blackness guys (), Zyzek (definitely not a historian ), all of them peddling anti-Israeli BS. Two actual historians Morris and Hanson - much more benevolent towards Israeli struggle with Muslim supremacists. It would be interesting to have Morris debate anti-Israel historians like Pappe and Al-H
@@eyalstatia it's not about wanting, unfortunately that BS is spreading like wildfire due to "pro-Hamas halfwits and liars, Benny has an obligation to fight it
He is a researcher/historian who base his writings on granted access to millions of archives, not just Israeli but also Arab nations. Who has done more research? You don’t even know.
@@kersho69 I know all of his writings and what you said does not dismiss what I said. In fact, he says he only relys on israeli and british archive, but nothing arabic!! He does not even know arabic. Look at what he said on Lex. It is all israeli propaganda that any 13 year old repeats in israeli streets
I know it's deeply traumatic to have your views challenged. Please, take care of yourself. If, in future, you find your views challenged by one of the most eminent historians in that field, please find your safe space.
I'm glad you brought up the issue of who to believe, this has vexed me a lot. But I like Benny, he seems genuine and interested in the facts and the truth
1- 40:04 Those who call for disestablishment are delusional but they are not talking about fire and storm, they are talking about the idea that each person can go back to his home country. 2- Nobody had a problem with the existence of a Jewish state the problem was creating the state on the rubble of Palestine. 3- Palestinians and all arab leaders accepted the partition on the 1967 borders, and even H amas accepted the partition, Israel never agreed to give back the land they occupied after 1967 if they accept there will be peace. 4- 45:50 H amas never fired rochets when they were in power until Israel broke the cease-fire first. 5- Egypt is block-aiding Gaza as a favor to Israel as an ally, that's what you got when you gave them ALL their land back. 6- What exactly was distorted in the text of Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe? Besides these 6 points, he made a good argument perhaps if most Zionists were like him we might find peace one day.
I feel for us humans when I read these comment sections. I often think we need to shut the f up and deeply realize how very very very little we know. What we can know is basically that there are as many versions of this world as there are human beings. Yet seems to me that there is only one Truth, a very simple and basic one thankfully. That you need no information nor facts nor studies to know. May all beings be happy and safe and snap out of delusion. Each one of us on our path we will.
@@ehyeh365 What's your solution to inducing people to, as you put it, STFU, and wallow in ignorance of what nobody knows. We have somebody here (Morris) who does know stuff. I think your post-modernist "as many truths as individuals" is, very much indeed, drivel, but at least I've offered hints as to why I think so. I have scientific training (unlike you, most probably), and physics tells you that a Smith & Wesson beats four aces, however you choose to interpret that metaphor, unless you can only see it as a call to violence. So, what's your solution to inducing people to, as you put it, STFU? If you have that one simple Truth handy, now's the time to spit it out. Wishing for everyone to be happy is a wish, not a truth of any kind. Thank you for your moronic input.
@@ehyeh365 Far more thoughtful than whatever the hell that postmodern New Age gobbledygook you wrote was. We’re in the middle of a genocide and you think it’s appropriate to write some relativistic mumbo-jumbo? You’re on the wrong side of history, and people like you will be considered complicit in this genocide.
40:59 “… the expulsion of seven million Jews, would this be justified?” Absolutely not. But I’ve long thought that one option would be the planned, _voluntary_ migration *_en masse_* of Israeli Jews (and Israeli Arabs, if they so chose) to another place, some territory purchased from a sovereign state to serve as a new “Jewish state” (or whatever those emigrating would want to set up). (Part of the purchase price could be paid for via technology transfers or defense or something else.) It’s not that farfetched. Israel’s area is about 22,145 km²-in other words, not that large. That’s a little over a quarter of the size of Hokkaido in Japan or about a tenth of the size of Guyana in South America. The new Jewish state could be stashed in territory formerly held by the state of Alaska-shades of _The Yiddish Policemen's Union_ by Michael Chabon-and, at a little over 3% of Alaska’s square area, it would barely be noticed. If you’re in a neighborhood where your neighbors are, by and large, not that happy to have you around, or begrudging at best, rather than knocking your head against a wall for more than three-quarters of a century, it’s not a bad idea to consider picking up and leaving.
I agree about that to some extent, but creation of a different apartheid state in another location doesn't solve the real issue. But it seems like a fine compromise, so long as there is literally NO ONE wherever they make this new state. I'm not sure if that's really possible though. There will certainly be someone that has to be kicked out or treated like a lesser citizen
Where would they go? Any state is one change from benevolence or benign neglect to being a pursued minority. With the "love" demonstrated I. France, GB, and even the US, it is surprising more aren't emigrating to Israel to control their own destiny.
@johnhelmich8311 are you suggesting that Jews are being persecuted in those countries? Hardly. Maybe in the very rare cases of extreme nationalism in very rural areas. I know plenty of Jews and they have nothing to worry about in America. Only propaganda would make you think otherwise
@johnhelmich8311 if anything all this equating anti Zionism with antisemitism is actually what's hurting the image of Jews around the world. Israel is the worst thing to happen to the ones that don't live there. It acts like it's the country of the Jews, which is insane. No. A Jews' country is the one they live in... Not this apartheid state half way across the planet
@@johnhelmich8311 I had in mind a completely sovereign state, just like the current state of Israel but with different neighbors. (It’s a completely fair question to ask which country, if any, would entertain some sort of territorial cession and whether that would be acceptable to Israelis, aside from the obvious, separate issue of whether Israelis would wholesale pick up and leave. Then, again, it’s not out of the realm of imagination-inhabitants of some Pacific Island countries might be forced to do just that, as their countries get submerged due to climate change.)
Check out the history of the first Christian state in the world - Armenia. After Muslim conquest and colonization Muslim population of what is now modern Armenia was larger than Armenian population. After Muslim colonialists were pushed out of Europe and Caucasus a lot of Christian states regained independence. Armenians returned from the diaspora, largely kicked out Muslim colonialists and re-created Armenian state - despite the Armenian genocide committed by the Muslims.
False Armenia, Georgia, Spain and Portugal and the Balkans region which was mostly Christian were always majority Christian. Christians Arabs make up a huge amount of the Arab population in spite of living under islam for over 1400 years!
It's first and foremost about religion. Anyone claiming otherwise is intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Read Morris' "1948: A history of the first Arab Israeli War" @@Offa7a
@@AddieP91can’t be. Because Muslim Arabs, Christian Armenians and Jews fought together against Muslim Turks to get rid of the Ottoman ruling. Sharif Ḥusayn ( great grandfather of King of Jordan) was merciless against Turks protecting Holly city Jerusalem and especially in Mecca (they’re starved to death)
@@அவானிஉயர்ந்தது Not accurate, Jews fought separately, and Arab resistance in what was about to become Mandatory Palestine was non existent. Hussein and his son Abdullah (first king of Jordan) fought the Turks for their own dynastical regional ambitions. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, and Hashemite - Zionist\Israeli relations is actually a fascinating subject. The Hashemites were always accepting and in some ways even welcoming the idea of a Jewish homeland west of the river Jordan. Either way, not sure how that contradicts what I said. There are many Muslims there you know, and their attitude towards Jews varied, as they vary still.
I was born in 1948. I don't recall in all the years leading up to the end of the 1960's any mention at all of "The Palestinians." They were Arabs. Just Arabs. It was the Arab Israeli War and the Arab Refugee crisis. I'm surprised that Benny Morris refers to the pre-1967 Arabs as Palestinians, since they did not call themselves that. Also, the Intifadas were not mentioned, in which thousands of Israelis were killed by suicide bombers. The present state in the West Bank is the result of that.
Class ‘A’ mandates were judged by the League of Nations to have already ‘reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone’. The Arab lands of the Ottoman Empire (Palestine, Syria, Iraq. Lebanon and Jordan) were all defined as ‘class A’ mandates by the League of Nations in 1923.
I have heard Benny Morris say that the "Palistinian" identity has its roots in the battle or Tel Hai in March 1, 1920; after which time two things were clear: One, the Syrian National Congress lacked the capacity to resist the French, and that the mandate system was going to take effect. And two, the Zionist Yishuv was seen to be settling and fortifying in droves, and taking an insular and hostile posture towards the Arabs.
My dear.The world did not begin to exist when you were born. My much older friends say they already protested for palestinian liberation in the 60 ies.Said was not an arab intellectual , he was a palestinian. In Ottoman passports it was distinguished whether you came from Palestine or Great Syria.Arabs are not all the same.
Nice cat, he's got big ears but nice cat nonetheless. The guest is atrocious and an apologist for mass homicide but i understand your striving for neutrality.
Bennie Morris refers to Palestinians as descendants of Arab tribes. Probably most of the Palestinians have not left the area since Canaan time. DNA. Analysis can support this.
He refers to Palestinians as Arab. Not descendants of Arabs. They're Arab. No different than the Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, etc. "Palestinian" first referred to Jews, then Jews and Arabs living in Ottoman and British Mandate "Palestine." Palestinian as a reference only to Arabs began in the 60s with Arafat co-opting the term when creating a national movement.
@@lilianehuddleston9363 Uh. No. Because that's the history. And bc Arafat decided to lead an Arab nationalist movement and used the word to refer to Arabs only. You do understand Palestine was a territory that always had both Jews and Arabs, right? Even after Muslim conquest.
@@jalemairliha yes, with over 90/100 Arabs before Zionism in the 19 th century. They all lived peacefully and I wish it would still be the same today . Troubles started with the unfair partition by the western powers that Arabs rejected. Stopping and dismantling settlements in the occupied territory would be a great step toward resolution today so that Israel gets a defined border.
@@lilianehuddleston9363 the kumbaya story is only told by the Arabs. We have plenty of contemporary writing describing it differently by the Jews. But the level of magnanimity was always dependent on the specific Arab leadership. But to the point > the settlements are not the impediment to peace. It's a point of rising tensions, but it's not the core problem. The impediment has never changed. And the majority of Palestinians will tell you themselves -- no free and independent Jews anywhere in the land. In pursuit of Islamic renewal and hegemony, they refuse to tolerate self-determining Jews in the region -- unless the Js agreed to be subservient to Islam / Islamic rule. But if the PA finally agreed to recognize the right of Israel to exist and to forgo any future terrorist activity, Israelis would jump on it. They'd demand the govt sign and drag all the settlers out of the territory. It was done already in Gaza.
It's unfortunate imo, but hopefully the next two we will get other views that get the Palestinian perspective, and Benny was I think directly invoked by Norman.
@Evgeny-jd2nq cringe harder, he's not getting censored, he can go on MSM to propagandise (of which he regularly does). No need to platform an apologist of ethnic cleansing.
Gosh, this man is such a disgrace. I understand Robinson's strive for balance and truth, but his incapacity to push back on genocidal narratives renders him wholly unfit for the task of hosting these discussions. On this matter there sadly *are* right and wrong sides, and Benny is very much on the wrong side of history. Funny he would not recognize that, being a historian, or perhaps he is banking on Israel never losing a war ever, its might over others making it right.
Benny is a dishonest historian. Just look at his earlier books and compare to later ones. Bibi paid him a visit I guess. Norman also proves that Benny is a liar with facts.
Another point Norman Finkelstein supporters forget to look into is that he admits he hasn't been employable for decades. His reason is because he tells the truth. I find it very hard to believe that with the hundreds of universities and even more colleges in the world that no one wants to hire Norman. Another irritating well educated person is fellow Canadian Gabor Mate. Mate was born in Hungary from a Jewish mother. He's now popular on the Oct 7 anti-Jewish speaking circuit loved by Pro-Palestinians.
Prof Norman Finkelstein is a man of honour & has integrity & speaks the TRUTH. THE dishonest & corrupt educational institutes have no idea as to what it means to tell the truth & integrity, possibly that's why the didn't or don't employ him.
Gaza seige - we must bear in mind area was not placed under siege because it was Palestinians there. Israel had signed peace treaty (Oslo) with PLO... Hamas took over after a civil war...they were not party to peace treaty AND had policy seeking destruction of Israel. Israel AND Egypt had no choice but to put this area under siege with such a belligerent neighbour
Hamas won a democratically held election and they signed to the PLO charter and accepted all agreements signed by PLO. USA and Israel rejected the election victory and that's why hamas political wing is in Qatar. Oslo was just an accord a pathway to an agreement to end the conflict. Oslo accords had a 5yr expiry date (1999). Netanyahu States he is the sole reason why the accords failed
@@Klopp2543 How can Israel and US be okay with a political movement that has in its constitution "our goal is to destroy the state of iSRAEL" big deal if they signed a paper or won fairly , if they were serious about ending the conflict they would have changed their abhorrent constitution and demanded a Palestinian state. Stop bullshiting
@@Klopp2543 Never mind the 743 rockets fired from Gaza that landed in Israel between its withdrawal in 2005 and June of 2006. Or the fact that the blockade was not instituted until Hanas’s coup. Those are just inconvenient facts.
@@joge2468 what? When was the Gaza's port and airport bombed? In 2005 immediately after the withdrawal! Secondly Gaza is an integral part of Palestine why isn't the occupation ending? Why is the west bank on fire? There's no rockets shot from the west bank
Classical Judaism was muscular, While the hundreds of ancient tribes were destroyed by the various roving empires, the Jews grew stronger and rose above them all until they were finally scattered by the Romans; I doubt there was any genetic purity to this organization of sovereign hold outs The IDF is a bunch of diminutive fascists, nerded out on Call of Duty gaming and propped up by US treasure; The Muslim Brotherhood alliance is a fully developed social-military organization that can, as any serious military analyst would relate, destroy Israel; No one wants this war, but if Israel wants it, they will get it Palestine was a multicultural state, no one has a right to displace it with an ethnically pure state, as if such a thing were possible
"The Muslim Brotherhood alliance is a fully developed social-military organization that can, as any serious military analyst would relate, destroy Israel;" Try it, Muhammad. You've tried a bunch of times so far, and failed every time. Does it upset you that the little dhimmis keep spanking your fellow weak Muhammads black and blue every time you try to genocide them? Try it again, please! Don't worry, the rest of us watch as you cheer on cowardly terror attacks but then cry crocodile tears when your own people are killed. We see you. We know you.
Benny Morris says there was not a "master plan" of expulsion. The "master plan" that was equivalent to expuslion was the Isreali policy of not permitting those who had left their homes for any reason (mostly to get out of the way of the war) to return to their homes. It amounts to exactly the same thing.
You missed the point. Morris is saying there was no plan to get of, :30 all the Arab popul6😮
1.) Arab villages that entered into official or unofficial non-aggression pacts with Israel were untouched. Hence, the 2M Arabs living in Israel today. 2.) You are conflating results and causes. The results may be the same for a whole host of causes, but that doesn’t mean the causes are interchangeable. Essentially, you’re claiming if x, then y; if z, then y; therefore x=z. This is illogical.
Weird that Zionists who are born around the world but Israel and may not even have any family in israrl are all allowed to have citizenship there only because they are zionist jews, crazy.
However NO Palestinians are ALLOWED to return.
@@joge24681. Actually thats false. Example here is the Deir Yassin massacre. The muslim inhabitants of Deir Yassin had a non-belligerency pact with the jewish inhabitants and even collaborated with them and the Haganah. Nonetheless they still were expelled and killed. Not by the Haganah, but by the Irgun and the Stern Gang, so the Haganah could claim uninvolvement in this explusion
@@worsethanjoerogan8061 No, it is you who missed the point.
48.00: he does not sound so trustworthy when he says that “Palestinians are always complaining and pushing their grievances instead of some of the good things that has happened to them as well”!!
When I think of people “who push their grievances on the world”, it’s not the Palestinians who come to mind.
@@Carstininvestments exactly!! 👍 One quite important thing I’ve been made aware of and seen countless of examples of is:
That very often - when you listen to a Zionist talk - and you notice something that seems to be a lie about different kinds of atrocities that Hamas or other of the enemies to Israel according to him allegedly have done:
1. The person never provides real trustworthy evidence
2. - and “funny enough” - the nature of those alleged crimes:
ARE BRUTAL ATROCITIES THAT IDF HAVE DONE THEMSELVES in other conflicts!!!
@@Carstininvestments The Palestinians (Really just Arabs ) attack the Jews ,lose the war and claim victimhood. They do this several times with the same result. World champions at "pushing their grievances on the world ".
No he has a point. The Palestinians have an unhealthy lost cause fixation on past defeats not dissimilar to the American South with the Civil War. This grossly one sided narrative which ignores the Holocaust and antisemitism is built into Palestinian narratives in their media and education systems. It's unhealthy and is a factor in the perpetuation of this conflict.
@@Carstininvestments Is it the Iranians? The North Koreans? The Russians? The Muslims in Europe?
Talking about Gaza he kept mentioning Khamas… Why not asking him about the West Bank and the settlers violence and settlement expansion. Also about the 2 states solution, what 2 states when the Palestinians lost almost all of their land???
If Richard did not bring that up he is remiss.
Mr Morris does not mention that Israel controls Gaza's border with Egypt also. Israel controls all material that enters Gaza from Egypt even entry food or medicine Material from Egypt was always inspected and controlled (cement, construction material for instance is not allowed). Israel does not mind Palestinians leaving Gaza but they will not be allowed back in. Gaza may not be a concentration camp; it is more like the Warsaw Ghetto. Nazis also allowed food and water into the Warsaw ghetto, but the amount was strictly controlled just like Israel controls the amount. As the Israel government itself has said, it wants to keep inhabitants of Gaza on a 'diet'.
Ofc palestinians are allowed to go back to gaza
Jews in Warsaw Ghetto won't fire rockets into Germany and consider destroying Germany. PA controlled the whole Egyptian border till 2005 with just Israeli video control. They stricted the conditions after Hamas came to power
Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto is ahistorical for two simple reasons: Gaza is self-governing and receives tens of millions of dollars in aid every year.
@@joge2468 The Warsaw Ghetto was run by the Jewish Council headed by Adam Czerniaków. But you are right Zionists are much, much better than the Nazis, although Israel has always controlled all people and goods that enter or leave Gaza.
Rafah crossing was controlled by Egypt before the current war.
How many Poles and Germans were killed by inhabitants of Warsaw ghetto before it's creation? Did Jews kill any Polish and German civilians intentionally during the uprising? Why did almost all Warsaw ghetto inhabitants die, while Gazan population has been constantly growing over the years? Do not dare to compare Warsaw ghetto and Gaza
This interview just gave airtime to the guest without elaborating or even gently questioning the claims
You gonna have on Joseph Goebbels next?
Are you comparing a Jewish academic to a Nazi mass murderer?
You raise a good point, there is a fine line between censorship and good taste.
benny morris rules
51:14Your question was quite clear. You didn't refer only to good Palestinian historians, but also to good Israeli ones. Morris' answer was very precise with regard to the Palestinians, but he didn't say a word about good Israeli historians who oppose his position.
There is also a suspicious cut in the continuity of the video at 58:08 and then you move on to another topic. Could you explain to us why you did not insist that Morris mention historians he considers good but who disagree with his position? Because it is clear that for Morris Pappe and Finkelstein are not good historians because they falsify or misinterpret the data they use to justify their positions.
Obviously, he would consider any historian who disagrees with his position as not particularly "good". Finkelstilskin is not an historian, and Pappe presents a strong bias by exaggerating Arab issues and downplaying Jew issues. I think the point he was making is that there is a real danger for Palestinians to express a pro-Israel, or even neutral opinion, whereas Jews can and do criticise each other.
He respects Avi Shlaim
He was asked the same question before (when interviewed by Destiny I believe), and he said Avi Shlaim is someone he regarded as a serious historian who he disagrees with, in contrast to Pappe and Finkelstein.
I haven't seen much of Pappe but I don't think anyone with the slightest integrity can take Finkelstein seriously.
@@bencohen1644 "Most Zionists don't believe that God exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine" Ilan Pappe. One cannot take such a statement seriously.
@@bencohen1644 ua-cam.com/video/7jGhC5vMY6s/v-deo.html
Morris would also have made a good slave owner, because he probably would have also characterized Slaves as constantly bringing their grievances instead of just enjoying their enslavement and the 'good' things that happened to them during slavery
funny you should mention: Dhimmi in Muslim countries is Jim Crow - 1500 years of Muslim supremacist slave-trading oppression
Do you know what they call black people in Gaza?
@@RedOlympusDo they sterilize them like in Israel?
@@TheHauntedKiwiyou mean the Ethiopian Jews they were rescuing from persecution?
@@RedOlympus I don't think forcibly sterilizing them counts as rescue
Yes, Bennie. You are a government spokesman whether you like it or not.
What does that mean
" Muscular Judaism " Has me on stitches!! You couldn't make this up!!😂😂😂😂
Don't worry, Benny, there will be a seat for you in the afterlife, right next to Netanyahu.
Right at the introduction, he *inserts the notion that there can be such a thing as a good reason, or a justification, of mass slaughter. I can’t see how there is anything more to learn from this man once that premise has been established.
*he asserts it by negation in his definition of genocide.
8:14 here we have Lockean warrant to settle the land better than the savages.
20:48 Robinson asks how to distinguish fact from fiction, Benny diverts to distinguish historians from propagandists.
30:14 culmination of a whataboutism.
31:57 diagnosis of Arab-world as “failed societies”
33:47 Robinson: “there is a religious element” , “there is a historical element” , “then there’s the holocaust”; “I’m wondering how you weight these historically and in the contemporary”
35:11 - 39:41 Benny “Jews spent 2000 years reciting their intent to ‘regain sovereignty’, to this was added nationalism, this led to two issues: keeping up with joneses, generic need to protect selves from antisemitism
39:54 Robinson: “this in mind, how do you answer calls for disestablishment of Israel?”
40:06 Benny: “firstly, this is genocide.”
40:51 equivocates “Palestine will be free” with “get rid of all Jews”
41:24 Benny: “why should Jews not have a state of their own?”
42:24 conflates “the Arabs” with Hamas
43:01 “why can’t Jews conquer?” “Jews conquered it in 1948”
47:46 Benny avoids Finklestein’s “open air prison” by… arguing the Palestinians didn’t have it so bad
47:56 loses track of his argument in favor of complaining that Palestinians complain instead of being grateful for what Israel gives them.
52:27 “the definition of a historian is dependent on what I define as the definition of a historian.”
54:31 “Arabs can’t be historians because all Arab states are dictatorships.” “Arabs do think in self-critical terms.” “Palestinians … write uncritically and are therefore not historians.”
56:47 “Israeli historians live under democracy therefore can write critically”
Bear in mind, at 54:22 Robinson doesn’t ask what Benny answered. Benny fails to say, “no there aren’t any legitimate Arab historians.” Benny resorts to setting the terms of legitimacy. Note: Benny fails to indict non-Arab state (presumably democratic citizens) historians on similar charges; this logic wouldn’t allow it. Earlier he anticipates the argument by invoking the distance between Israel and “New York” as a means of explaining why one might have an oppositional position to his arguments. In Benny’s universe, the only legitimate historian is one Benny agrees with.
1:03:06 collateral damage argument
1:03:33 Israel is only a little bit an apartheid state but only a little bit. Israel dabbles in apartheid. It’s apartheid-curious. But to suggest Israel is an apartheid state is totally ridiculous. It’s sort of true but totally ridiculous.
Thanks for the summary, I see no zio-shill coming to his defence by replying to your comment. Typical.
We dont wright History but we did not let the Roman kick us out and enslave us 2000 years and rape our women and Daughters we kicked The Romans out Palestina syria libanon Jordan and Parts of Anatolia we dont have critical thinking according you
If Jews say they are kicked out their land by Romans ghey insulting their forfather and accuse them for traitors and cowards
Not like Arabs they know victory or die in the battlefield
But on the other side not all Jews leave Filistea 2000 yeas ago the farmers and peasant stay and are the Palestinians
Palestinians have Hebrew forfathers
According a Geneticus from Israel Ariella oppenheim
Arabized state are not arab states so Europe is Italian land because europe use Latin alfabet
Thanks for setting the record straight addam
So whiny 😅
Host a scholarly debate between morris and Finkelstein
No. It wouldn’t be scholarly. Finkelstein would just throw insults
Finkelstine is not a histotian by education, he doesnt know neither Hebrew nor Arabic
@@cropframe So what? He is a Political Scientist with more in-depth knowledge of Israel/Palestine them even most of the Israeli Hebrew speaking historians. Look at my comment above to see the debate between Finkelstein and Morris. You'll learn a lot.
@@DIPU1036 Norman is a moron, nothing to be learned from his rants
@@DIPU1036 No Finkelstein desnt hav any in-depth knowledge, he has a lot of slogans tho. Sort of like Wolf and Zyzyk
I feel like this host isnt on a highenough level to do a in depth interview with this guest
Is Benny Morris high? He says Israel is not an apartheid state and at the same time says “something like apartheid” exists in Israel.
I think you need to listen again. Hint: he differentiates between the situation in the West Bank and the one in Israel proper.
He literally explains this
Why are you bothering answering bots online? @@Omnipoops
@@snoopcelev1590 boredom. What about you?
thats because In Israel arabs live with full rights as citizens.
The apartheid like conditions are when discussing the situation in the West Bank which is occupied by Israel - while at the same time not being a nation.
It was occupied by Israel when it belonged to Jordan..... but Jordan surrendered that territory. its a very strange situation
Professor Morris has strong arguments , yet he discredits too easily different arguments coming from the historical analysis coming from Palestinian scholars. I still would like to hear more about it.
The idea that no other Air Force warns of attack is a historic and surprising coming from a historian because it’s so obviously untrue. The most recent bombardment of Israel by Iran that was declared 72 hours in advance comes to mind but of course this interview was given before that event. Nevertheless the US used this approach in various bombing campaigns in Iraq. The Japanese were also warned by way of leaflet drops in WW2 that they should evacuate various cities that were to be bombed. Indeed even international law requires warning of imminent attack if civilians are at risk. These norms are represented in some of the earliest documents that attempt to codify humanitarian law as early as 1862 in the Lieber Code. The idea that this practice is unique to the IDF is just dumb.
Thank you for pointing it out. Propagandist should never be allowed to hold the title historian.
Also, cute practice.
@@truthistreason4292 Benny seems like a pretty solid historian by many accounts which is why I’m surprised with this take.
The US didn't warn Hanoi when they started operation Linebreaker 2. The Allies didn't drop leaflets before they bomb German city. The Coalition force didn't use roof-knocking when they started bombing Mosul and ISIS.
Always a breath of fresh air to listen to Morris. The interviewer had some trouble staying objective, but did his best. I appreciate his willingness to listen to different sides.
I enjoyed Benny Morris's conversations with Norman Finkelstein and Prof Mouin on Lex F's channel
Finkelstein had answers to pretty much anything they threw at him.
@smokingred5813 If we're counting childish shouting and red-herrings, then sure.
@@Jon-jr7kx Clearly you are talking about Mr. Borelli aka destiny
@@smokingred5813 you mean mr ravioli?
@@smokingred5813 He literally argued with Morris about the contents of his own book. Finkelstilskin is a hack, and not a nice person. Mouin is a gentleman though.
I really like Benny Morris. He changed my outlook on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on his objectivity, fairness, and thorough knowledge of the subject.
don't be silly, you are just a hasbara
@@nicholasgotsis8155learned a new hebrew word, idiot?
He’s Zionist vermin
Lol, you sound a like a fake review
🤡🤡🤡
Just imagine how Israelis would act if someone was “knocking on their roofs” with missles like Morris so casually describes
I mean they do have to deal with the equivelent of it which is missels. What it does it create a pretense for hatred, dehumanisation and calls for further violence. Which is basically the same thing happening on the Palestinian side. And thus the cycle continues.
@@UnicornzMilk don't both sides a genocide
@@Dudemeister if you keep justifying terrorism the cycle will continue.
@@UnicornzMilk one of the most naive things imaginable is believing that Israel doesn’t do terrorism and that they are trying to end the cycle of violence
@@Dudemeister I don't think the leaders on either side have an incentive to end the violence, because it keeps them in power. But justifying violence, war and terrorism it what keeps those same things going. At the end it's the civilians who suffer while the leaders live in luxury. Please attempt to be empathetic to civilians on both sides who are completely traumatised by this war and call against any and all violence.
Is Israel committing genocide, Morris seems to answer that question in the affirmative without realizing it. "Mass killing of a people by another people without good reason or no good reason at all"... 200 doctors dead, 24 hospitals blown up, 120 ambulances destroyed many with the crews inside. Now what makes it interesting is that the IDF published a few weeks back that it had medevac'd over 500 wounded IDF and that none of their helicopters came under fire. And what's interesting still, is that there a a number of videos on Arab channels showing Palestinian fighters/snipers video taping some of these helicopters and they clearly could engage but did not... How is it these terrorists show restraint when the IDF shows none at all, seems like an indication of a Genocide. What's clear, listening to historians is like reading statistics, you can make the numbers say whatever you need to sell your point. I prefer hard math...
Did you watch the video?
@@jordankoop2930 yep
Israel does have good reason for their campaign in Gaza.
It’s sad to see Benny morris turned into a joke for the sake of Zionism.
Distortions I denounce, distortions I use... conflict is safe!
Just wanted to point out that the audio seems a little off in this video. The sound is either slightly deeper in pitch than usual or slightly slower than usual or both. Otherwise, great video video as usual!!
That's a cool cat. The one with those ears.
My great-great grand parents were forced out of Ireland. I guess I can go back and take some land, wonderful! No one is calling for mass murder of the Jews. What about the principles of democracty? One person, one vote, equal rights.
There are 9 million citizens of Israel, 2M of whom are some variation of Arab -- muslim, druze, christian, bedouin, etc. Every one of them has an equal vote to that of any other Israeli. The Arabs in Israel have political parties, hold political offices, sit in the Knesset, are police officers and supreme court judges. There are more Arab doctors in Israel than Jewish doctors. The Palestinians in the territories hold their own elections. That's how we got Hamas and the PA.
You pretend to be misinformed but for sure you aren't. You know too well that the slogan "free Palestine" means genocide the Jews and for that reason you support it.
Your generation's antisemitism and hypocrisy aren't different than the generation that perpetrated the Holocaust the only difference that Israel exist so gone are the days that you could shove millions of Jews to mass graves.
Yes, Israel is a democracy and all its citizens have equal rights under the law.
The West-Bank was never annexed into Israel, that is why different laws apply. This is a problem that nobody thought would come to be, because Israel thought that a viable land-for-peace deal or a Palestinian state would actually be agreed to. Unfortunately this hasn’t happened. A peace with Jordan was signed, and the West-Bank remained in its strange status. And the a treaty with the Palestinians was signed, but Arafat and the PLO did not chose to actually establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel, that is why there is no solution to this problem yet
You intend this as mocking Zionism, but this is the literal position of the Palestinians today, that everyone descended from someone kicked out in 1948 has an absolute right of return today and for ever.
@@jalemairliha So...this wonderful country of Israel has the right to cut off food, water, electricity, control other people in their land...WTF??? If you were a Palestinian, living in Gaza or West Bank...you would not be making this comment.
0:15 I didn’t know genocide had a qualification like, “no good reason at all. “
And I’m only 15 seconds in. Lord give me strength.
Wonderful conversation! Thank you for sharing this with us.
You should get Ilan Pappe on to give you the actual history.
You should get tested for Antisemitism bias (just for the ''selection'' of Ilan Pappe...)
@@homosapiensthenextkind Antisemitism" is just a word people throw around when they have nothing substantive to say.
Comment section having a hard time listening to the number one historian on the topic
He's an idiot.
Reeeeee, colonialism, reeeeeeeeeee
Not sure he's the number 1 historian. There's Ilan Pappe, for one,
@@Frannie12lol
@@Frannie12 😀Morris coat Pappe in so many miss translation. He twist evidence to fit his narrative.
Well done people !! A “ normal” conversation, seeking to explain, contextualise and understand a complex problem.
Good work!!
See Jews Like Him have lost their minds Palestinians should talk about the good things they have even though they're held hostage no one in and no one out
Giving voice to apartheid, ethno nationalism and settler colonialism. Fair play. ✊👏👏👏✌️
It is Palestinians who support all that.
@@BUSeixas11 Judging by the ridiculous comment I understand clearly now. You do not know anything about the history. How unfortunate.
giving voice to actual facts as opposed to Muslim supremacist propaganda
@@cropframe I'm an atheist.
@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv you can be an atheist shilling for muslim supremacists, there is not contradiction - or trusting the BS they are peddling
Benny Morris is a legend. A living history expert. You should listen to him.
not really
Is he insane??
Came for Benny Morris, stayed for the Cornish Rex
For the sake of balance, are you going to have on Alan Dershowitz next?
He'll be on to provide balance when the topic series is sex crimes.
@@onlynormalpersonExactly. 😂
@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv ah I misread which level of irony you were operating on.
@@onlynormalpersonI'm with you. 👍
He still owes money.
Looking forward to listening to it 👍
Wish it was three hours
Benny Morris is an interesting and credible individual.
He is bias. Never a good historian.
@@truthistreason4292 Everyone is biased in some regard. Only the ignorant man doesn't know he is biased.
@@Robert_Sparkman_07 which pretty much makes Morris an ignorant. Thanks for pointing that out. Great one!
Hes a cheerleader for genocide
Out of the four talks on the Israeli Palestine conflict you've had thus far this was, in my opinion, the best. Not just by a little either, but by a wide margin.
Frankly, I didnt really enjoy the other three very much. They all just got a bit too deeply polarized and off topic for my taste. For example, going on and on about how during their time at university they felt xyz side of the political spectrum was trying to keep them out of the conversation etc... That kind of stuff just isnt relevant to the discission of whats going on in gaza right now, and what what should be done about it.
This conversation however, wasnt like the other three at all. You guys stayed much more on topic, and kept things much more academic. I felt like I learned a lot about the history of the conflict, and I really appreciate that.
Anyways great job! I'm looking forward to see how the next couple discussions on the topic turn out.
You certainly learned plenty of Zionist propaganda.
The fact that he says a genocide is only what happened to the Jews is about all you need to know to see the bias here
nice beard. Is it kosher?
@@simulacrum.ad.nauseam no it is not. To be clear, I am not Jewish, I do not support the state of israel either in this conflict or more generally, I do not think it was a good idea to create the state of Israel, and I think that an accurate way to describe Israel would be apartheid state.
I don't necessarily like Morris, or agree with him on basically anything. I made the above comment because I liked the conversation more than I liked the other conversations Robinson had at that time had with other guests, not because I liked the guest, or the opinions presented.
Morris is to the point.
Thanks for hosting Benny Problem. Read his book on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem. Was good to hear his answers about genocide and Apartheid. He acknowledged that a form of apartheid did exist in the West Bank.
It's a total apartheid & racists state even amongst themselves.
Some state who would want to live there except this who do.
Robinson thank you so much for your liberal values. Allowing a crude propagandist the time to explain away the torture and slaughter of a defenceless population by the most humane army in the world. How noble. ❤
Why are you lying? What's the death ratio of militants and civilians in this war? What's the norm for dense urban combat?
@@captainbeefheart5815 Lying about what exactly?
@@captainbeefheart5815 The vast majority of deaths are innocent Palestinians, poor people slaughtered by the most hight tech army in the world. Under international law, this high tech killing machine illegally occupies Palestinian land. Why? What's your point?
@@captainbeefheart5815And because 50% of Gaza's population are children, they are very much the victims. But the IDF carries on the slaughter regardless.
@@captainbeefheart5815 A tiny amount of militants but a massive amount of innocent people have been slaughtered on purpose by Israel's military.
The roof-knock missiles have penetrated roofs and if I'm not mistaken even a top floor and has killed at least one human. It's absurd to assume it won't kill anyone. Also, it's not very common that they get more than a few minutes to leave the building before the JDAM missile bombs the building.
driven out= expelled
yes thats what driven out means how astute of u
Thank you for having Benny Morris on this show. I really enjoy listening to your podcast but have found the Israel-Palestine conversations to be rather one sided in the choice of guests.
Yes. It's very important to invite on guests who explain away the mass torture and slaughter of innocent people. Free speech is important. Liberal values are important. Censorship is bad. Settler colonialism, apartheid, collective punishment and war crimes have defenders and their voices must be heard. Balance is very important. Especially when Morris is constantly being invited on MSM.
Benny is a true evil Zionist unfollow
@@JohnnyComelately-eb5zv Like Finkelstein? If I recall his first reaction was to deny the atrocities of the seventh of October until he could verify them. Yet the statistics about the civilian casualties in Gaza are taken as gospel? I like to think in good faith: that we’re all doing the best we can. It is very clear to me however that there is prejudice from some (and ignorance from many) on the pro-Palestinian side towards Jews.
@@noahlibra Finkelstein is Jewish. Chomsky is Jewish. Max Blumenthal is Jewish. Aaron Mate is Jewish. Katie Halper is Jewish. Illan Pappe is Jewish. You are confusing or conflating Jews, many of whom have very different opinions, with pro apartheid, pro settler colonialism, pro ethnostate, pro Occupation Zionists. It's really very simple.
@@noahlibra Finkelstein did not deny Oct 7th. This is categorically false.
I think Benny has a lot of credibility... better than any other Israel-Palestine historian. Palestinian/American professor Rashid Khalifa disappointed me early after October 7. He said he had a credible relative working for UNWRA and there was no evidence of tunnels under Gazan schools, hospitals, houses, etc. What total BS. This is an example of Benny saying anyone with PalestinianArab ties, even if in a western country, has to be careful to not piss off fellow Palestinian/Arabs. I also liked it when Benny said there were around 25 Arab countries that the Gazans could go to (... but no one wants them), while were else can the Jewish Israelis go to in the Middle East or other countries? Most people forget that many Jews living in Israel did not come from Europe; they came from North Africa, Ethiopia, Yemen, etc.
Dude you have to push back. The role of the west on the existence Israel after www2 is a way to contextualize the construction of Israel, which characterizes Israel as a western colonial project imposed upon the Palestinians, and the region. Furthermore the existence of the Israeli is a vehicle for control of West Asia for US hegemony, and its construction and continual existence is utterly dependent on US weapons, political cover, and capital flows from wealthy jews in the US and Europe. this state of affairs has all the characteristics of a parasitic entity.
As to the dismantling of Israel as an Zionist apartheid state, the physical extermination of people is not a necessity, merely its isolation from the global economy through UN sanctions would result in its reconfiguration, apartheid South Africa is an example, the smallness of Israel makes it even more vulnerable. If only the UN was a functioning institution.
At the beginning of the interview, with this quibbling of numbers of expelled Palestinians by the Nakba was terrible. Even if it was JUST 500,000 people it is still a crime that sanctions Israel as a Pariah, all you did is give air to justification of this colonial project by posing the usual trope that the land was empty, which has applied to the construction of settler colonial projects throughout human history.
Also to go to all the way back to the dissolution of the Jewish states by the Romans in the 2nd century is not a historical precedent to justify Zionism, I know that he was trying to explain Zionism, but this guy is zionist thus it is a tacit justification and so just coverf, the Romans state does not exist anymore, this is a mute point.
There is more I could have said, but this message is already too long. I'm not historian by profession and from the top of my head I could have come up with these points to push back on this Zionist, with a little research and as a professional UA-camr you should have done much. This was a Puff piece, Benny must have been laughing his head off at the end of the interview.
Disappointing....
Great interview!
Wow, so different from the history written by Prof Ilan Pappe. Can you let them debate on your podcast or maybe they have alread done that.
Well you heard what BM thinks about his work.
Ilan Pappe is an academic fraud
Ian pappe is a joke of a historian. He openly invents facts
@JerryJanoff, what about Avi Shlaim? Is he a joke, too?
@@JerryJanoff I watched this guy debate Finkelstein, and I can say that Finkelstein was more convincing.
Benny Morrison's reasoning is very confused, in particular where are 7 million Jews supposed to go? He simply forgets that the vast majority are dual citizens. They can simply go back to where they came from in the last 75 years....
Basically, he knows very well that there is no real reason that would justify a Jewish state on Palestinian land after 2000 years of absence. - Sad but true.
Most Israelis do not hold dual citizenship - wiki is free. Half of all Palestinians do hold a citizenship, a Jordanian one, and another part live in Syria and Lebanon for generations - so, it is logical for them to stay in these countries + WB, Gaza and Israel.
🤣 65% of the Jews in Izz are from ME and N African countries. With one bird, I kill two stones: Jews have had a continuous presence in all now-Arab lands since before Islam. None of these countries have any Jews left because they were exiled or fled. Also, the reason dual citizens retain their other nationality is so they can travel freely. Most Arab countries do not permit Israelis to even visit, let alone return.
Your reasoning is the confusing one. What happened in the last 75 years? It's called the Holocaust. It's not like most Jews living happily in Europe just decided to move to Israel out of nowhere, even though they indeed had the yearning to return to their homeland.
The holocaust happened, Jews realized most other countries are just temporary houses, their home is in Israel. You may as well nuke the place and wipe every Jews from history if you hate them that much. But you'd better be fast because Iran is also on it.
That guy literally lied 25 pages straight in his book and he admitted last month while debating with norman finkelstien
I think you misunderstood Morris there. As did and often does me finkelstein.
@@ehyeh365no i didn’t’ you can check again
stop taqiyya, please..most pro-paletinian movement is fake its financed by terror states China, Russia, Iran , Qatar...the rest of propaganda is pushed by Imamas in mosque Palestine starts with letter P,,,name letter p in arab Alpha , bet...there is no...hence the real Palestine is Balestine or BS ana Balesstini
My man Robinson keeps us human. Reminds us of our collective humanity. “Useful” to gain differing views, even cruelly partisan and painful ones, where cognitive dissonance reigns supreme and opinions are diametrically opposed and extremely painfully polarised. building fragile trust, together we grope in darkness for understanding in the seemingly futile absurdity of a senseless life painfully and paradoxically , hopefully captured in the myth of Sisyphus and Camus interpretation. The murderous brutality and yet winsome gentleness of life.We are drawn together in our utterly hopeless and yet insanely hopeful project of an attempted shared humanity. Yet we are imprisoned by this painful humanity. Pins🐈
he got enough crude partisanship with regard to ISrael from Norman, Wolff and Zyzek. Finally some facts
@@cropframeyou miss my point entirely. It’s about embracing compassion and a passion for truth. Our shared humanity is at stake. We are spiralling into a brutish , crass world from which we will never fully recover what it means to be a human being, sans all the social conditioning and BS that in our present state defines our pathetic attempts at being fully human. Feynman said “when you are talking you are not learning”. We perhaps need to learn what being a human being entails, acknowledge hubris and untruths honestly, sans cultural and social conditioning. . “Certain” emotional voids undergirded by glaring untruths , fudging history and bigotry are as crass asf.
@@bernardofitzpatrick5403 you think that allied actions in WW2 was a violation of common humanity? Israel is not doing anything different than anti-German coalition was
@@cropframe category error methinks. Apples and oranges if you know what I mean. 😂
@@bernardofitzpatrick5403 How do?
Was there a Bosnian genocide?
This man contradicts himself several times on aspirations of statehood.
Why do Zionists receive praise for this and Palestinians not so?
because Israel agreed to many partitions but gre*dy Ar0abs never did
?
Can you give an example of contradiction?
The people are called JEWS.
Ok Dr
You aren’t a Zionist 😂
I believe 😂😂😂
The problem with these cerebral discussions on important issues is that they become overly involved in the past history of the conflict and not on the current actions that more directly affect future outcomes. Even when discussing the history of this ancient problem, there is no clear consensus on the facts. Historians have disparate understandings of the events that are agreed on, and so their conclusions and predictions don’t easily accommodate each other. The current situation, however, is undeniable and the steps that must be taken to resolve it clearly visible for all to see. First, the killing must stop and the principals must commit to its just resolution. Due to the monumental difference in the relative strength and resources of the two parties, the international community must also commit to a process that guarantees a just implementation of any resolution. Problems of this nature were what the United Nations was created to solve, it’s time that member states invested the resources necessary to finally accomplish this vision.
Palestine is a Farsi word/name "پا و دستان - paa-va-dastan" which means legs and hands for work building homes. Disciple is "دست [و] پا دار - dast-o-paadar" which means "having [skilled] hands and legs".Cross/Christ is "کار است - kaar-ast" which means "It is the work [which determines the ownership of a home, the one who built it]. At that time everyone except a few who claimed the ownership of all lands and water passed to them by their ancestors, everybody else were homeless, trespassers and slaves to the landlord. Palestinians were the workers who helped Eesa Messiah (Jesus) build homes using wood in the form of Cross as the joints of the structure making permanent residence. Disciples were the skilled worker/foreman.
Israel is a pariah state
This is completely wrong
Does Netanyahu know what happens to American Client States that get out of line? Do the names Saddam, Marcos, or Noriega ring any bells?
The West is very cruel. It will do anything to control the world.
every US college has a department of anti-american studies
What does Netanyahu have to do with any of these people? There is literally not a single comparison between them. Complete nonsense. Like wtf… they don’t even got the same ranks and power in terms of leadership
@@gastarbeiter8384 They were all formerly supported by the United States until they went too far. Netanyahu has clearly gone too far.
You mean what happens to countries that aren't inclined to the worldview that planet earth exist only for Muslims to conquer and impose Islam?
OPEC oil embargo ring any bells?
I love your 🐈 ❤
No thank you.
The character of the comments against Morris work in his favour, and they help clarify the nature of his self-appointed opponents
My only comment is sad he is still an horrible zionist.😢
That comment is the essence of intellectual dishonesty.
So far we Robinson let a bunch of not historians rant about Israel : Norman F (not a historian), Wolf (not a hisotrian), two blackness guys (), Zyzek (definitely not a historian ), all of them peddling anti-Israeli BS. Two actual historians Morris and Hanson - much more benevolent towards Israeli struggle with Muslim supremacists. It would be interesting to have Morris debate anti-Israel historians like Pappe and Al-H
Morris would not debate someone he considers disingenuous. you can check the hebrew Wikipedia of pappe
Pappe would destroy him. As would Glenn Greenwald. As would Max Blumenthal. All of whom are Jewish.
@@eyalstatia it's not about wanting, unfortunately that BS is spreading like wildfire due to "pro-Hamas halfwits and liars, Benny has an obligation to fight it
Two propagandists masquerading as historians
I think Benny is blinded by his love of zionism.
everything he said is factual, you are blinded by antisemtism
he is fed by their media like everyone there. shameful for someone like him
He is a researcher/historian who base his writings on granted access to millions of archives, not just Israeli but also Arab nations. Who has done more research? You don’t even know.
@@kersho69 I know all of his writings and what you said does not dismiss what I said. In fact, he says he only relys on israeli and british archive, but nothing arabic!! He does not even know arabic. Look at what he said on Lex. It is all israeli propaganda that any 13 year old repeats in israeli streets
@@kersho69🎯. Projection 😔…
I can’t listen to this. It’s absurd and gaslighting.
correct.
Finkelstein and Wolff was gaslighting. Morris is telling the truth
I know you’d rather get Finklefuckedsteined since Benny speaks the objective truth that doesn’t fit your narrative
I know it's deeply traumatic to have your views challenged. Please, take care of yourself. If, in future, you find your views challenged by one of the most eminent historians in that field, please find your safe space.
@@swarming1092 oh look another zio-bot. Hi! 👋
I'm glad you brought up the issue of who to believe, this has vexed me a lot. But I like Benny, he seems genuine and interested in the facts and the truth
He wouldn't know how to tell the truth just like others.
Valeu!
Thank you!!!
Thanks!
Disgusting
1- 40:04 Those who call for disestablishment are delusional but they are not talking about fire and storm, they are talking about the idea that each person can go back to his home country.
2- Nobody had a problem with the existence of a Jewish state the problem was creating the state on the rubble of Palestine.
3- Palestinians and all arab leaders accepted the partition on the 1967 borders, and even H amas accepted the partition, Israel never agreed to give back the land they occupied after 1967 if they accept there will be peace.
4- 45:50 H amas never fired rochets when they were in power until Israel broke the cease-fire first.
5- Egypt is block-aiding Gaza as a favor to Israel as an ally, that's what you got when you gave them ALL their land back.
6- What exactly was distorted in the text of Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe?
Besides these 6 points, he made a good argument perhaps if most Zionists were like him we might find peace one day.
This guy is liar like all the others from the oppressors side. It's just sickening to hear their blatant LIES forever.
I heard this b4.
Sickening
What are some of the lied he told?
He has a weak epsitomological approach when it come to the source material. @@ballisticfish1212
Very good interview
I feel for us humans when I read these comment sections. I often think we need to shut the f up and deeply realize how very very very little we know. What we can know is basically that there are as many versions of this world as there are human beings. Yet seems to me that there is only one Truth, a very simple and basic one thankfully. That you need no information nor facts nor studies to know. May all beings be happy and safe and snap out of delusion. Each one of us on our path we will.
@revripple thank you for your thoughtful input
@@ehyeh365 What's your solution to inducing people to, as you put it, STFU, and wallow in ignorance of what nobody knows. We have somebody here (Morris) who does know stuff. I think your post-modernist "as many truths as individuals" is, very much indeed, drivel, but at least I've offered hints as to why I think so. I have scientific training (unlike you, most probably), and physics tells you that a Smith & Wesson beats four aces, however you choose to interpret that metaphor, unless you can only see it as a call to violence. So, what's your solution to inducing people to, as you put it, STFU? If you have that one simple Truth handy, now's the time to spit it out. Wishing for everyone to be happy is a wish, not a truth of any kind. Thank you for your moronic input.
@@ehyeh365 Far more thoughtful than whatever the hell that postmodern New Age gobbledygook you wrote was. We’re in the middle of a genocide and you think it’s appropriate to write some relativistic mumbo-jumbo? You’re on the wrong side of history, and people like you will be considered complicit in this genocide.
As if historical facts will change anyone's minds anymore.
Genocide enabler.
there is no genocide
Morris tells the turth. Wolff and his likes enable genocide
Benny Morris, the Baghdad Ali of historians.
40:59 “… the expulsion of seven million Jews, would this be justified?”
Absolutely not. But I’ve long thought that one option would be the planned, _voluntary_ migration *_en masse_* of Israeli Jews (and Israeli Arabs, if they so chose) to another place, some territory purchased from a sovereign state to serve as a new “Jewish state” (or whatever those emigrating would want to set up). (Part of the purchase price could be paid for via technology transfers or defense or something else.)
It’s not that farfetched. Israel’s area is about 22,145 km²-in other words, not that large. That’s a little over a quarter of the size of Hokkaido in Japan or about a tenth of the size of Guyana in South America. The new Jewish state could be stashed in territory formerly held by the state of Alaska-shades of _The Yiddish Policemen's Union_ by Michael Chabon-and, at a little over 3% of Alaska’s square area, it would barely be noticed.
If you’re in a neighborhood where your neighbors are, by and large, not that happy to have you around, or begrudging at best, rather than knocking your head against a wall for more than three-quarters of a century, it’s not a bad idea to consider picking up and leaving.
I agree about that to some extent, but creation of a different apartheid state in another location doesn't solve the real issue.
But it seems like a fine compromise, so long as there is literally NO ONE wherever they make this new state.
I'm not sure if that's really possible though.
There will certainly be someone that has to be kicked out or treated like a lesser citizen
Where would they go? Any state is one change from benevolence or benign neglect to being a pursued minority. With the "love" demonstrated I. France, GB, and even the US, it is surprising more aren't emigrating to Israel to control their own destiny.
@johnhelmich8311 are you suggesting that Jews are being persecuted in those countries?
Hardly. Maybe in the very rare cases of extreme nationalism in very rural areas.
I know plenty of Jews and they have nothing to worry about in America.
Only propaganda would make you think otherwise
@johnhelmich8311 if anything all this equating anti Zionism with antisemitism is actually what's hurting the image of Jews around the world.
Israel is the worst thing to happen to the ones that don't live there.
It acts like it's the country of the Jews, which is insane.
No.
A Jews' country is the one they live in...
Not this apartheid state half way across the planet
@@johnhelmich8311 I had in mind a completely sovereign state, just like the current state of Israel but with different neighbors. (It’s a completely fair question to ask which country, if any, would entertain some sort of territorial cession and whether that would be acceptable to Israelis, aside from the obvious, separate issue of whether Israelis would wholesale pick up and leave. Then, again, it’s not out of the realm of imagination-inhabitants of some Pacific Island countries might be forced to do just that, as their countries get submerged due to climate change.)
Check out the history of the first Christian state in the world - Armenia. After Muslim conquest and colonization Muslim population of what is now modern Armenia was larger than Armenian population. After Muslim colonialists were pushed out of Europe and Caucasus a lot of Christian states regained independence. Armenians returned from the diaspora, largely kicked out Muslim colonialists and re-created Armenian state - despite the Armenian genocide committed by the Muslims.
False Armenia, Georgia, Spain and Portugal and the Balkans region which was mostly Christian were always majority Christian. Christians Arabs make up a huge amount of the Arab population in spite of living under islam for over 1400 years!
Palestine - Israel isn’t about religion. There are a lots of oppressed Armenians at Palestine.
It's first and foremost about religion. Anyone claiming otherwise is intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Read Morris' "1948: A history of the first Arab Israeli War" @@Offa7a
@@AddieP91can’t be. Because Muslim Arabs, Christian Armenians and Jews fought together against Muslim Turks to get rid of the Ottoman ruling. Sharif Ḥusayn ( great grandfather of King of Jordan) was merciless against Turks protecting Holly city Jerusalem and especially in Mecca (they’re starved to death)
@@அவானிஉயர்ந்தது Not accurate, Jews fought separately, and Arab resistance in what was about to become Mandatory Palestine was non existent. Hussein and his son Abdullah (first king of Jordan) fought the Turks for their own dynastical regional ambitions. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, and Hashemite - Zionist\Israeli relations is actually a fascinating subject. The Hashemites were always accepting and in some ways even welcoming the idea of a Jewish homeland west of the river Jordan.
Either way, not sure how that contradicts what I said. There are many Muslims there you know, and their attitude towards Jews varied, as they vary still.
Sorry! I can’t continue hearing such a blind and brain washed “historian”!
Just shows who the blind & brainwashed person really is.
@Robinson : You need Arab and Muslim guests...
I was born in 1948. I don't recall in all the years leading up to the end of the 1960's any mention at all of "The Palestinians." They were Arabs. Just Arabs. It was the Arab Israeli War and the Arab Refugee crisis. I'm surprised that Benny Morris refers to the pre-1967 Arabs as Palestinians, since they did not call themselves that. Also, the Intifadas were not mentioned, in which thousands of Israelis were killed by suicide bombers. The present state in the West Bank is the result of that.
Class ‘A’ mandates were judged by the League of Nations to have already ‘reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone’.
The Arab lands of the Ottoman Empire (Palestine, Syria, Iraq. Lebanon and Jordan) were all defined as ‘class A’ mandates by the League of Nations in 1923.
I have heard Benny Morris say that the "Palistinian" identity has its roots in the battle or Tel Hai in March 1, 1920; after which time two things were clear: One, the Syrian National Congress lacked the capacity to resist the French, and that the mandate system was going to take effect. And two, the Zionist Yishuv was seen to be settling and fortifying in droves, and taking an insular and hostile posture towards the Arabs.
My dear.The world did not begin to exist when you were born. My much older friends say they already protested for palestinian liberation in the 60 ies.Said was not an arab intellectual , he was a palestinian. In Ottoman passports it was distinguished whether you came from Palestine or Great Syria.Arabs are not all the same.
Io sono caucasica e vivo in Sicilia. Quindi io non sono siciliana??
You seem proud of your ignorance.
Nice cat, he's got big ears but nice cat nonetheless.
The guest is atrocious and an apologist for mass homicide but i understand your striving for neutrality.
Bennie Morris refers to Palestinians as descendants of Arab tribes. Probably most of the Palestinians have not left the area since Canaan time. DNA. Analysis can support this.
He refers to Palestinians as Arab. Not descendants of Arabs. They're Arab. No different than the Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, etc. "Palestinian" first referred to Jews, then Jews and Arabs living in Ottoman and British Mandate "Palestine." Palestinian as a reference only to Arabs began in the 60s with Arafat co-opting the term when creating a national movement.
@@jalemairliha not because of the “Palestine never existed”” and “the land without a people” narratives?
@@lilianehuddleston9363 Uh. No. Because that's the history. And bc Arafat decided to lead an Arab nationalist movement and used the word to refer to Arabs only. You do understand Palestine was a territory that always had both Jews and Arabs, right? Even after Muslim conquest.
@@jalemairliha yes, with over 90/100 Arabs before Zionism in the 19 th century. They all lived peacefully and I wish it would still be the same today . Troubles started with the unfair partition by the western powers that Arabs rejected.
Stopping and dismantling settlements in the occupied territory would be a great step toward resolution today so that Israel gets a defined border.
@@lilianehuddleston9363 the kumbaya story is only told by the Arabs. We have plenty of contemporary writing describing it differently by the Jews. But the level of magnanimity was always dependent on the specific Arab leadership.
But to the point > the settlements are not the impediment to peace. It's a point of rising tensions, but it's not the core problem. The impediment has never changed. And the majority of Palestinians will tell you themselves -- no free and independent Jews anywhere in the land. In pursuit of Islamic renewal and hegemony, they refuse to tolerate self-determining Jews in the region -- unless the Js agreed to be subservient to Islam / Islamic rule.
But if the PA finally agreed to recognize the right of Israel to exist and to forgo any future terrorist activity, Israelis would jump on it. They'd demand the govt sign and drag all the settlers out of the territory. It was done already in Gaza.
Poland!
not cool to have this zio-bot and nortorious propagandist on the show. Not cool at all.
It's unfortunate imo, but hopefully the next two we will get other views that get the Palestinian perspective, and Benny was I think directly invoked by Norman.
@Evgeny-jd2nq cringe harder, he's not getting censored, he can go on MSM to propagandise (of which he regularly does). No need to platform an apologist of ethnic cleansing.
Cool are those who wallow in their echo chamber
@@farqueueman This seems more of an exposure than giving platform.
Terrible guest. Would you have on one of the thought leaders of South African apartheid would you?
According To Bennie Morris he is the only objective historians- May be along with other Israeli historians who he doesn’t even name.
How do you know this exactly?
@@ehyeh365 they asked him, he didn’t give any names
Twit
Gosh, this man is such a disgrace. I understand Robinson's strive for balance and truth, but his incapacity to push back on genocidal narratives renders him wholly unfit for the task of hosting these discussions. On this matter there sadly *are* right and wrong sides, and Benny is very much on the wrong side of history. Funny he would not recognize that, being a historian, or perhaps he is banking on Israel never losing a war ever, its might over others making it right.
Benny is a dishonest historian. Just look at his earlier books and compare to later ones. Bibi paid him a visit I guess. Norman also proves that Benny is a liar with facts.
GenocideJoe 😢
Islamonazis
Stop Genocide Joe Biden ❤
Benny is nonsense. Try norman
He did, like a month ago.
norman is not a historian, he has a degree in political science. norman knows neither hebrew nor arabic
@@cropframe destiny troll?
@@MultiMediaEvan destiny troll?
Another point Norman Finkelstein supporters forget to look into is that he admits he hasn't been employable for decades. His reason is because he tells the truth. I find it very hard to believe that with the hundreds of universities and even more colleges in the world that no one wants to hire Norman. Another irritating well educated person is fellow Canadian Gabor Mate. Mate was born in Hungary from a Jewish mother. He's now popular on the Oct 7 anti-Jewish speaking circuit loved by Pro-Palestinians.
Prof Norman Finkelstein is a man of honour & has integrity & speaks the TRUTH. THE dishonest & corrupt educational institutes have no idea as to what it means to tell the truth & integrity, possibly that's why the didn't or don't employ him.
Keep lying
The new Jew had to be muscular how else would you be able to colonise the land and dispossess the Palestinian
Gaza seige - we must bear in mind area was not placed under siege because it was Palestinians there. Israel had signed peace treaty (Oslo) with PLO... Hamas took over after a civil war...they were not party to peace treaty AND had policy seeking destruction of Israel. Israel AND Egypt had no choice but to put this area under siege with such a belligerent neighbour
Hamas won a democratically held election and they signed to the PLO charter and accepted all agreements signed by PLO. USA and Israel rejected the election victory and that's why hamas political wing is in Qatar.
Oslo was just an accord a pathway to an agreement to end the conflict. Oslo accords had a 5yr expiry date (1999).
Netanyahu States he is the sole reason why the accords failed
Isreal funded that civil war (khamas) to divide gaza from west Bank.
@@Klopp2543 How can Israel and US be okay with a political movement that has in its constitution "our goal is to destroy the state of iSRAEL" big deal if they signed a paper or won fairly , if they were serious about ending the conflict they would have changed their abhorrent constitution and demanded a Palestinian state. Stop bullshiting
@@Klopp2543 Never mind the 743 rockets fired from Gaza that landed in Israel between its withdrawal in 2005 and June of 2006. Or the fact that the blockade was not instituted until Hanas’s coup. Those are just inconvenient facts.
@@joge2468 what? When was the Gaza's port and airport bombed? In 2005 immediately after the withdrawal! Secondly Gaza is an integral part of Palestine why isn't the occupation ending? Why is the west bank on fire? There's no rockets shot from the west bank
Certainly a man of knowledge but most certainly a conscious liar. Outside Israeli society he couldn’t have followers, unlike Pape and Finkilsteine.
Underbara katt ❤️
Förlåt?
Ah yes! True! His cat 😂 Fin!
Classical Judaism was muscular,
While the hundreds of ancient tribes were destroyed by the various roving empires, the Jews grew stronger and rose above them all until they were finally scattered by the Romans;
I doubt there was any genetic purity to this organization of sovereign hold outs
The IDF is a bunch of diminutive fascists, nerded out on Call of Duty gaming and propped up by US treasure;
The Muslim Brotherhood alliance is a fully developed social-military organization that can, as any serious military analyst would relate, destroy Israel;
No one wants this war, but if Israel wants it, they will get it
Palestine was a multicultural state, no one has a right to displace it with an ethnically pure state, as if such a thing were possible
"The Muslim Brotherhood alliance is a fully developed social-military organization that can, as any serious military analyst would relate, destroy Israel;" Try it, Muhammad. You've tried a bunch of times so far, and failed every time. Does it upset you that the little dhimmis keep spanking your fellow weak Muhammads black and blue every time you try to genocide them? Try it again, please! Don't worry, the rest of us watch as you cheer on cowardly terror attacks but then cry crocodile tears when your own people are killed. We see you. We know you.
Are you kidding? 2 million Arabs live in Israel. Plus the Druze and Bedouin.
I hadn't realised how racist Morris is.