well, according to beta memory: "When Voyager of the Project Full Circle fleet learned of another Kathryn Janeway residing on Sormana, they considered whether Denzit Kathryn Janeway could be the Silver Blood Kathryn Janeway. They dismissed the thought, thinking the Silver Blood were unable to leave their world" (VOY novel: A Pocket Full of Lies)
I've been wondering the exact same thing since I saw that episode for the first time nearly 24 years ago and I have yet to work a out satisfactory answer. on the one hand, the planet is capable of replicating anything it touches, and the Silver goo made a point of forcing Voyager to leave those copies because it wanted badly to hold on to it's new found sentience and purpose, doesn't it stand to reason that it might have made more then one copy before? after all, Voyager being on that planet was pure accident - there's no guarantee of another opportunity anytime soon (if ever again). On the other hand, if that group set out because the essence of the originals were so strong that they could not resist setting out towards Earth, would they have made copies? They didn't even realize they were copies until they started breaking down?
Points to the writers and showrunners for not only giving us an episode that is a tragedy, but one that is absolute. It's not something I've seen in a TV show before or since.
This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. On one hand, I'd wanted OG Voyager to at least scan the goop and determine what it was. Thus fulfilling Goop Voyager's wish to be acknowledged/remembered. But on the other hand, I appreciate the emotional impact of Goop Voyager evaporating (pun intended) into nothingness without OG Voyager ever having known they'd existed.
And it could've been such a short scene, just to acknowledge that something is there. Chakotay: "Oh, there is a cloud of goop. Where did that come from?" Tuvok: "Scans show no further details" janeway: "Guess whatever that was, it seems we are too late to find out."
This episode gets better on a rewatch. It's almost as if the clones are happier and subsequently clinging more to life than the real Voyager. It reminds me of Blade Runner, where the replicants were fighting for something humans take for granted.
I love these sequel episodes. Can’t wait for your review of the season 7 episode “for the world is hollow and I became a salamander” where the fish babies of Janeway and Paris make a fish copy of Voyager and head for Picard’s fish tank on the Enterprise-D
They were just two years away from Earth. But the gloops would not have been able to survive on Earth for long. Unless they chose to land on Venus instead....
I’ve been waiting for this episode to come up - this was my first ever episode of Trek and it had a special place in my heart for bringing into this franchise!
Firstly I noticed that sneaky 47 you threw in there 😂 but secondly this was a dam good episode one of best and one of the most tragic. Not only was it just a dam good story they threw in some great deep thought questions and particularly liked the idea of sending a probe/time capsule just so people knew you existed. I once spent a whole day asking everyone I met if the Earth was going to die would they wish for it to just peacefully slip away or go out in massive explosion that would announce to half the galaxy that we existed. Apparently my wanting to let everyone know we existed and hopefully maybe get curious as who we were, was not actually the general consensus, I think the general consensus was more that I’d finally gone off the deep end into properly mad.
what about Goopway? 🤣😅 Gooplix (Neelix), Gooplana (Gooprres just doesn't quite work... or does it?), Gooptay 😂(Chakotay), GoopDoc he did. What other names can we come up with?
Did you see the Lower Deacks Season 4 premiere? It takes place on Voyager - now a museum ship - and by accident two officers get tuvix'd. The captain is all "if Janeway had the same problem I just copy her solution" but the lower decks Tuvix finds out what that solution was and all hell breaks loose. It was fun and had a lot more callbacks.
"Is it possible to copy a blank sheet of paper?" Made me laugh way to hard. I always liked both the Demon and this episode. Despite them being hated on by most reviewers. They are just so silly that I can't help but like them.
Another missed opportunity for Voyager... Apparently, Demon Voyager traveled quite a distance *ahead* of Prime Voyager given that, as Demon Voyager was traveling **BACK** to their home planet, in their final moments, they run into Prime Voyager. That being the case, shouldn't Prime Voyager be encountering civilizations that might have a beef with them or blame them for shiz that Demon Voyager did? Space is big, blah, blah, but Trek space is pretty tiny in reality. Maybe Voyager fell into Beverly Crusher's own little universe bubble at some point?
A good catch, but potentially answered by DemonVoyager saying they planned to go through galactic centre due to those warp upgrades. We could argue (perhaps generously) that PrimeVoyager has a more mundane course, so skips many of those civilisations.
Thinking about the way GoopJaneway didn't have the epiphany that helps her curb her thirst to get back to Earth so strongly, maybe GoopJaneway had some encounters that changed her. Maybe they became more stealthy and avoided interactions as much as possible after some encounter gone wrong. This episode is too good for that nitpick, and I do think it could be explained away pretty easily.
This is the episod that stuck with me most from my first watch of Voyager. The tradgedy of it all, the decisions leading to all of them dying but the fainth hope not to be forgotten in the end via that probe, just for it to blow up, the og Voyager carrying on with the same determination and the only people who remember goop Voyager are us. And we are only watching not real beings
One thing that stands out to me about both of these episodes is that, back in "Demom", Goop Kim is the one who effectively spearheads the creation of the Goop People race. Then, in this episode, he's the one who eventually ends up leading them all into their extinction in the end by being the last one in command of a disintegrating Goop Voyager.
Great stuff as always. I also like the music for this episode, it just adds to the feeling of tragedy. Especially when Janeway announces the death of Chakotay, and when Janeway dies.
This was one of many episodes where a main character dies but none of the deaths or consequences matter because of alternate versions and/or time travel. Also in my head canon this had the implication that some of the previous episodes could have been with the cloned crew.
10:16 What’s the duty roster for the planetary geosciences division got to do with anything? Surely most of them are dead by now anyway!? You’d think that real Voyager would have started coming across species that thought they’d met them already, or even find versions of their own crashed shuttles and left behind equipment etc
You know, I never really thought about this until now: if the silver goo is one undifferentiated mass and it essentially 'became' the Voyager crew, was Voyager itself like a... goo spirit? Like it's goo that retains the knowledge of how to be the ship?
A very good episode, and one that surprisingly nihilistic: the goop crew all due one by one, inches from help, all memory of them doomed to be lost. The most anyone might be aware of them is if the aliens they traded with keep records and they are compared to the "real" voyager records. There are a couple of plot holes, to wit: a) how did they forgot what they were, and b) did they clone the ship itself or somehow build a whole starship by themselves? But they feel unimportant in the face of a great episode full of good character work, an interesting concept, and a deliciously brutal ending. Top marks
6:43 woman seems to have had enough of Paris. I found this episode rather harrowing. The idea of being gone, completely, with no memory or trave of who we were.
I always loved this episode, and couldn't wait for you to get to it. I'm glad so many others enjoyed it too. It was a complete story done as well as you could do it.
When you posted your review of Demon - I mentioned this ‘sequel’ being the most depressing episode of the series. My opinion remains the same. Loving your analysis. Goop Group was hysterically funny and appropriate
Yup. Part of the costume 'designed by the Doc' in The Gift, and one I pointed out as being a questionable medical choice back then even before you bring ladders into the equation.
You gave points to the costume designers, but half those points need to be taken away. Lt. Paris was a full Lieutenant (two solid pips) whereas Goop Paris was a Lt JG (one solid, one hollow). Perhaps Goop Paris did, in fact, experience the events of "Thirty Days", but did something that Meatbag Paris didn't do, to earn a promotion. I mean, Goop Kim got promoted from Ensign to Captain in a few hours, so they were handing out promotions left and right. Woof.
Paris is either a victim of Season One Pip Fuckery, or gets demoted somewhere along the way. He's a Lt(JG) from some point in S2. I haven't tracked down exactly where, but he's wearing the black and gold pips in Threshold. Either way, junior grade pips are what he's wearing in Thirty Days before demotion, so it's right for GoopParis.
I was expecting goop Harry Kim making a chishe last stand in a desimtegretd Bridge, before succumbing to its fate. But that fact that did not hapen just makes everything darker , transmitting the tragedy of their existence, not only been erase, but also ending with out a last fight for their existence. In some way , they never had a chance
4:05 - Face with the threat of spending an uninterrupted week with Tom Paris, she dies. Fuckin hell man. That was brutal and nearly made me do a dead. LOL
So I like this episode, I really do, it's tragic, well written and a great deconstruction of the characters. The issue I have is how is the goo copying voyager? From what we saw in the episode it has to cover every part to make a full copy, so did they bury Voyager fully and let the goo flood every compartment?
Due to a transporter incident the exploration of duplication was also explored in the TNG episode Second Chances which had a commander William Riker come face to face with a duplicate of himself this was further explored in the DS9 episode Defiant with the now Thomas Riker.
Always felt that the word "transference" was doing a lot of heavy lifting in Star Trek. In TOS final episode "Turnabout Intruder", Kirk is actually transferred with Janice Lester and they aren't duplicated, that was transference, anything else is sparkling copying.
All hail Skull Dog and Space Dog! All hail the replicators! I think my main gripe with this episode was the lack of consequences. Yes the goop people all died, but Voyager didn't know or care. It felt like we were getting to know these characters all over again but there wasn't any point since at the end of 45 minutes, they would never be brought up again. It didn't sit easy with me. Perhaps if the message in a bottle / probe has survived the destruction and someone picked it up. The destruction of the probe felt like a kick in the gonads and made it feel pointless.
The "is a perfect copy less real than the original" question is kinda old news at this point considering transporters literally take a scan of you at the source location, kill the "original" you by ripping your body apart and converting it into energy and then reconstitute what is essentially a new copy of you at the destination using the scan pattern and the transferred energy... whether the fact that you experience/remember it as a continuous stream of consciousness actually makes you the same person when you step off the transporter pad is something every transporter user has to reconcile with themselves. Also lets not forget the other previous instance of this, Thomas Riker, who really is biologically identical to Will and has all the same memories right up until the transporter fuck-up occurred.
The captain can indeed conduct weddings. That goes back at least as far as Kirk. But one of those episodes that give an idea of what could have. A super fact turbo warp, captain Harry Goop Kim, different relationships, a follow up to a previous episode. The only weak point is that real Janeway just moves on and doesn't at least do a science on the cloud. And the "if you dicover that you are a copy" thought comes back to transporter clone Riker, who was left on a shitty planet for 8 years because of a science, is still a Lieutenant and ends up joining the Marquis and nicks the Defiant with them. Bot were absolutely identical, they were the same person, literally, until that accident, and then split. And they are different people because of the experiences they gathered since they split.
I feel like this is one of the many lost potentials that the Star Trek universe could offer. Instead of a single one-off episode, the goop voyager crew could have provided many experiences to further explore things that the og crew couldn't. An entire parallel adventure. And if the writers were very bold, it would be amazing to see an entire civilization born out of the goop planet that could either join or battle the federation. Sadly, their lack of commitment to long term consequences means that even this single episode being based on a previous event was far more than would have been expected. Instead of being part of a rich and fertile field of universe development, it is resigned to being a small oasis in the continuity desert.
@@ThomasstevenSlater That takes talent and practice. There are some excellent fan fiction writers, a lot are not. The OP is merely expressing an opinion that does not affect you in any way. You really really don't want to be in a situation to be reading the stuff I write. It's the "If you are reading this, things have gone very badly wrong" kind.
I never understood how they were able to duplicate the ship, and if they only had 2/3 of the original crew, wouldn't they realize something is wrong since a good chunk are missing? Even if they forgot they were clones, they would have to know something is wrong.
The only known difference between the two crews is Paris rank. This was intentional so the audience would not know which episodes followed the original Voyager and which episodes followed the duplicate Voyager.
At first, the copies could not tolerate leaving the planet. Then, they all board the ship and leave the planet - without any problems or anxieties......because REASONS
A fair criticism, and one I considered covering, but if they can go from 0-sentience in a day then any progress from that point on is potentially reasonable. For all we know, they aren't even the original copies (so to speak).
This shows again how bad a captain Janeway is. Once she learnt the news she should have set a course for the planet they came from to keep her crew safe. Once a solution is found she can resume the voyage to earth, but no, captain ahab has to kill her white whale.
I liked this one to a point, I always thought it was like a better version of "TNG:Second Chances" but it always bugged me as to why the goop brigade 'forgot' where they came from
My gripe with this story - how long was it before the copies started their journey? What course did they take? Why was the real Voyager anywhere near them to be able to hear and respond to the distress call? They should have been far away at that point - shouldn't they?
A really good episode, one of my favourites. It's really quite sad that no-one knows the copy ever existed and there is no nice ending to it. Kate Mulgrew is excellent. (As a side note, at the beginning with the Paris/Torres, I'm always surprised that marriage is still a thing in the distant future. Especially since most of Starfleet staff never seem to have relationships, never mind live together! They seem to just go from a semi-long relationship and suddenly they're married and have kids. Ugh.)
Since they visited several planets they would have had adventures on at least some of them. Because even goo Janeway is Janeway they would have had major effects on some of the planets they visited, effects that would be be remembered for millennia.
@@vservo1149@ptonpc Not everyone gets married and have children, nowadays, though. Many of my friends aren't married, but are in long-term relationships and many don't have children. Don't get me wrong, I'm married myself (although we don't have children through choice), but it seems to happen to Paris and Torres in a very short period of time. The time limits of TV, though, I guess. It's just I would have thought by then, that (for humans, anyway) that marriage would be a much rarer concept in a few centuries.
the ship was sinking into the silver blood, so it makes sense that they copied the ship since it was in direct contact with it. of course, a ship isn't just its outer hull / shape, but it's sci-fi after all.
This is another very interesting episode for me, because I have always hated it for its bleakness. It's my least favourite episode in the franchise. I recall reading that the showrunners considered this episode to be very polarizing; people either love it or they hate it. Given how many people here seem to have enjoyed it, I'm curious why so many people find it satisfying while I find it terribly depressing. I really liked the consideration of the topic of identity in this video (Data would be another interesting example of a character who has 'died' and had his memories copied iirc). The essence of a person is a difficult thing to pin down, and some psychologists assert that memories really are the one thing that are unique to and defining of a person (nobody else has your life story). I suppose one tragic element to this story is how the goop-crew believed they belonged in a part of the galaxy where they'd never be able to survive. Janeway's drive to get her crew 'home', usually a source of strength for the real Janeway, is in this case her tragic flaw. Perhaps the reason I hate this episode so much is because, due to the false memories, even if Janeway had chosen to return to the demon planet, most of the crew would likely never be happy there.
I actually like that, "I'm sht so thanks for having me" idea for vows. It is really strange they would bother with dress uniforms when there isno federation in sight. Ohh Voyager and its excuses for putting the crew through serious stuff with no lasting consequences. Sigh. It's a shame we never see Tom and Belana's actual wedding instead, but oh well I guess.
Ok. My turn for pedantry... When you said that the Doc didn't get a dress uniform possibly because the costume dept didn't have "anything in green", shouldn't he wear a blue dress uniform since he's Medical?
I think they're mostly blue but sometimes green, and sometimes the doctors and scientists just like to get changed multiple times a day, depending on who is in charge of lighting and colour correction for that episode.
I didn't think Demon was too bad, but I have to say, I wasn't a massive fan of this one. I can see the positives if you're into character exploration or tragedy that is absolute, but it's hard to get over just how contrived the entire episode is. From how the goop made a perfect copy of Voyager (like how t-f does that work?), to how the copies are so perfect that they remember the childhoods they never experienced, yet have conveniently forgotten how they were formed or where they took off from, right through to how they're speeding through the galaxy in a super warp drive superior to the original Voyager's, yet somehow manage to almost bump right into Voyager right at the end for the too little too late finale, it just doesn't work for me. But fair play to those who could suspend their disbelief to enjoy the goopy ride.
About the crew being copies. Some regard the act of teleportation destroys the original and whatever appears on the pad is a copy. In that case everyone in Star Fleet is a copy!
My biggest issue with this episode isn't even this episodes fault. It may be a later season's or series' fault for some final after Voyager review vidi.
So am i the only one that sees the blaring plot hole in thia episode. I dont want to bw the nerdy trekky, but can anyone put stardate of when they landed on the demon planet, how many bonus jump skips the original voyager got and to the current stardate? Because if im not mistaken goop voyager must have had passed thru some wormholes or what not to be able to be near original voyager almost 2 year headstart. Or it can easily all be explained as an origins episode that took place just months after the original voyager left the demon planet.
Stardate is consistent with being in chronological order of season 5. Demon has no stardate so could potentially be at any point, but the lack of Paris demotion puts it before Thirty Days. The distance thing is largely covered by the warp core upgrade that causes their medical condition. They said 2 years to get home by slipping through galactic centre, so even the 30,000+ LY gain made by Original Voyager is piss poor compared to that. If that speed is consistent, they were actually much further ahead than Original Voyager and just happened to meet them on the way back.
@@Unlimited_Lives If only they could have shared those warp upgrades with Voyager and Starfleet. It's something they don't seem to figure out for at least another 100 years. I wonder if GoopBlanna, GoopSeven, and GoopHarry figured it out on their own and what encounter sparked the innovation.
Holy cow, you are the man sir. I never thought about that. That super upgraded warp core could have caught up with them in just a few days or weeks.@@Unlimited_Lives
You could make the same argument with Thomas Riker and the transporter.. i mean i thunk they already have a more expanded view of life and of humanity that includes transhumanism.
i dont think ive told this story before at least here. voyager was 'my' trek growing up sure i watched a few episodes of tos, tng and ds9 eather on reruns or on video rented from my local video store or recorded our selfs (remember when that was a thing children, makes you feel old dont it?) but voygaer was my trek. its what i returned to and what i thought of as trek for much of my childhood. and while ive gotten older and wiser and see the flaws the failure's , the missed chances the unwillingness to change or challenge the status qu the repeated head butting of the reset button. there is still apart of me that looks to voyager especial in this era of trek with rose coloured glasses. but i say this with out hyperbole or humor or an any attempt to get a rise out of anyone. this 2ed only episode in all of trekdom i refuse to rewatch. it is bitter, hateful, cruel and nihilistic just a meddle finger in my opinion to those that enjoy voyager and perhaps even trek itself. the only other episode that rivals it is the episode of picard were icehb is killed for seemingly shock value and nothing else
Good lord I hate this episode so much. Easily one of the worst of Voyager, if not the absolute worst. The actions of this duplicate crew make no sense, and I truly do not care at all. Single episode tragedies can work, but this one did not.
@eliza.rose.morrison I just remembered just before I watched. My thought had to do with an earlier episode where Voyager encountered the substance first. Harry and Tom were both replicated by the goop, and as I understand it, these are the same copies. They talked to the Voyager crew and stuff they knew they weren't real by the end of the episode, and they replicated the whole crew. So, I guess that was my confusion.
@@remrad4315 Now that you mention it, it does seem odd that they forgot that interaction. Every other copy never got to interact with the original or anyone else, but these two did have that opportunity, they should technically remember that. I suppose we can blame it on their slow decay, but the writers probably forgot. And now that I've thought about that episode a bit more, I wonder what happened to that small sample of silver blood that turned into Be'lana's finger. The first episode where the duplication happens is called Demon (S04E24).
@eliza.rose.morrison I'm not sure myself. It never occurred to me that the deterioration could also be psychological too. Honestly, I can just accept that as the truth and move on. I wish there were more nods to continuity in this show. As for the finger, I got no idea.
Wait. You brought up another Ship of Theseus. Kurn's mind was wiped. But we still know him as Kurn. The goo-Voyager have the memories, but different bodies. No different than Data transferring to something else. I disliked this episode, because there was no buoy. This bleeds into transporter clones, and trill symbionts. Dang. Nice philosophical call.
It's just easier for the guy who hadn't officially existed for seven years to change his name. He didn't even have anyone around to have called him "Will".
I really liked the episode but I do have problems with it... How did they copy Voyager? I thought the goo just copied people... And... Was 7 even part of the crew when they were copied? I'm not sure and too lazy to check... Other then that - fine episode.
1st question - the ship was sinking into the silver blood, so it makes sense that they copied the ship since it was in direct contact with it. of course, a ship isn't just its outer hull / shape, but it's sci-fi after all. 2nd question - I'm too lazy to check, and I don't remember either... never mind, I did decide to check as I was writing this. 7 of 9 joined in S04E01. The episode Demon is S04E24, so she was here already. Incidentally, the episode Demon comes right after Living Witness, the one with the copy of the Doctor activated 700 years in the future.
is it possible to copy a blank sheet of paper? ok here's a tree and some rubber. without the proper (upbringing, teaching, experiences) machines to create it I wish you luck my dude.
Yeah it's a good episode but the fact that they duplicated the ship without any explanation makes ZERO sense and ruined it for me. They needed DNA to create and the ship has no DNA. Even a weak explanation would of been better than none.
Today's Thought Experiment: Is Silver Goop now extinct, is it awaiting more donors to copy, or are there hundreds of other Voyagers?
It doesn't matter how many Voyagers are out there. The only Voyager that matters is the one in our heart.
Yes to all
well, according to beta memory:
"When Voyager of the Project Full Circle fleet learned of another Kathryn Janeway residing on Sormana, they considered whether Denzit Kathryn Janeway could be the Silver Blood Kathryn Janeway. They dismissed the thought, thinking the Silver Blood were unable to leave their world" (VOY novel: A Pocket Full of Lies)
My magic 8 ball says "Yes" and I always believe it 😊
I've been wondering the exact same thing since I saw that episode for the first time nearly 24 years ago and I have yet to work a out satisfactory answer. on the one hand, the planet is capable of replicating anything it touches, and the Silver goo made a point of forcing Voyager to leave those copies because it wanted badly to hold on to it's new found sentience and purpose, doesn't it stand to reason that it might have made more then one copy before? after all, Voyager being on that planet was pure accident - there's no guarantee of another opportunity anytime soon (if ever again). On the other hand, if that group set out because the essence of the originals were so strong that they could not resist setting out towards Earth, would they have made copies? They didn't even realize they were copies until they started breaking down?
This is the scariest Star Trek episode. It shows a realistic lose scenario.
There are 47 types of people in the world: those who got the joke and those who didn't.
Wow, the number in this comment is in base -1.25. Haven't seen that before
Faced with an entire week with Tom Paris, she dies…. I love you.
That was GOLD!
Points to the writers and showrunners for not only giving us an episode that is a tragedy, but one that is absolute. It's not something I've seen in a TV show before or since.
This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. On one hand, I'd wanted OG Voyager to at least scan the goop and determine what it was. Thus fulfilling Goop Voyager's wish to be acknowledged/remembered. But on the other hand, I appreciate the emotional impact of Goop Voyager evaporating (pun intended) into nothingness without OG Voyager ever having known they'd existed.
Indeed. It's more impactful for the loss being total.
And it could've been such a short scene, just to acknowledge that something is there.
Chakotay: "Oh, there is a cloud of goop. Where did that come from?"
Tuvok: "Scans show no further details"
janeway: "Guess whatever that was, it seems we are too late to find out."
This episode gets better on a rewatch. It's almost as if the clones are happier and subsequently clinging more to life than the real Voyager. It reminds me of Blade Runner, where the replicants were fighting for something humans take for granted.
I really liked how the end and the beacon thing was frustrating but in such a good way that its actually a good frustration.
This was a heartbreaking episode.
I love these sequel episodes. Can’t wait for your review of the season 7 episode “for the world is hollow and I became a salamander” where the fish babies of Janeway and Paris make a fish copy of Voyager and head for Picard’s fish tank on the Enterprise-D
🤣🤣🤣
I think it's super interesting that it's goop Janeway's inherited stubbornness to get back to Earth no matter the cost that dooms the goop Voyager.
I saw that bloody 47 lmfao
They were just two years away from Earth. But the gloops would not have been able to survive on Earth for long. Unless they chose to land on Venus instead....
This is one of my favorite episode. The tragedy of loss and forgetness. A low blow from an overall cheerfull and hopefull narrative.
Missed opportunity to call him Goopvok
I’ve been waiting for this episode to come up - this was my first ever episode of Trek and it had a special place in my heart for bringing into this franchise!
Firstly I noticed that sneaky 47 you threw in there 😂 but secondly this was a dam good episode one of best and one of the most tragic. Not only was it just a dam good story they threw in some great deep thought questions and particularly liked the idea of sending a probe/time capsule just so people knew you existed. I once spent a whole day asking everyone I met if the Earth was going to die would they wish for it to just peacefully slip away or go out in massive explosion that would announce to half the galaxy that we existed. Apparently my wanting to let everyone know we existed and hopefully maybe get curious as who we were, was not actually the general consensus, I think the general consensus was more that I’d finally gone off the deep end into properly mad.
Curious. I'd want to leave a record too, if only as a warning of where we went wrong.
As to 47: you saw nothing.
@@Unlimited_Lives The real 47's were the friends we made along the way.
How dare you pass up the opportunity to call him “Goopvok” 😂
what about Goopway? 🤣😅 Gooplix (Neelix), Gooplana (Gooprres just doesn't quite work... or does it?), Gooptay 😂(Chakotay), GoopDoc he did. What other names can we come up with?
When this aired it messed me up. I was legitimately sad for “goop Voyager”
Did you see the Lower Deacks Season 4 premiere? It takes place on Voyager - now a museum ship - and by accident two officers get tuvix'd. The captain is all "if Janeway had the same problem I just copy her solution" but the lower decks Tuvix finds out what that solution was and all hell breaks loose. It was fun and had a lot more callbacks.
I hope he reviews them
I didn't know it had aired until I read your post. I was able to stream it. Thank you :).
"Is it possible to copy a blank sheet of paper?" Made me laugh way to hard.
I always liked both the Demon and this episode. Despite them being hated on by most reviewers. They are just so silly that I can't help but like them.
This was one of the greatest Trek episodes ever.
Another missed opportunity for Voyager... Apparently, Demon Voyager traveled quite a distance *ahead* of Prime Voyager given that, as Demon Voyager was traveling **BACK** to their home planet, in their final moments, they run into Prime Voyager. That being the case, shouldn't Prime Voyager be encountering civilizations that might have a beef with them or blame them for shiz that Demon Voyager did? Space is big, blah, blah, but Trek space is pretty tiny in reality. Maybe Voyager fell into Beverly Crusher's own little universe bubble at some point?
A good catch, but potentially answered by DemonVoyager saying they planned to go through galactic centre due to those warp upgrades. We could argue (perhaps generously) that PrimeVoyager has a more mundane course, so skips many of those civilisations.
Thinking about the way GoopJaneway didn't have the epiphany that helps her curb her thirst to get back to Earth so strongly, maybe GoopJaneway had some encounters that changed her. Maybe they became more stealthy and avoided interactions as much as possible after some encounter gone wrong. This episode is too good for that nitpick, and I do think it could be explained away pretty easily.
loved this episode, brilliant sci-fi at its best.
This is the episode I've been waiting for you to review. Demon Voyager.
This is the episod that stuck with me most from my first watch of Voyager. The tradgedy of it all, the decisions leading to all of them dying but the fainth hope not to be forgotten in the end via that probe, just for it to blow up, the og Voyager carrying on with the same determination and the only people who remember goop Voyager are us. And we are only watching not real beings
I did not expect to laugh as much in a review of such a heartwrenching episode.
One thing that stands out to me about both of these episodes is that, back in "Demom", Goop Kim is the one who effectively spearheads the creation of the Goop People race. Then, in this episode, he's the one who eventually ends up leading them all into their extinction in the end by being the last one in command of a disintegrating Goop Voyager.
Great stuff as always. I also like the music for this episode, it just adds to the feeling of tragedy. Especially when Janeway announces the death of Chakotay, and when Janeway dies.
4:08 that hit me in all the right places and had me giggling for the rest of the evening 🤣😅
This was one of many episodes where a main character dies but none of the deaths or consequences matter because of alternate versions and/or time travel.
Also in my head canon this had the implication that some of the previous episodes could have been with the cloned crew.
It could potentially explain any continuity errors in future episodes. 🤣
If goop Janeway had turned around immediately, it seems likely they would have encountered Voyager soon enough that they might have been able to help
10:16 What’s the duty roster for the planetary geosciences division got to do with anything? Surely most of them are dead by now anyway!?
You’d think that real Voyager would have started coming across species that thought they’d met them already, or even find versions of their own crashed shuttles and left behind equipment etc
You know, I never really thought about this until now: if the silver goo is one undifferentiated mass and it essentially 'became' the Voyager crew, was Voyager itself like a... goo spirit? Like it's goo that retains the knowledge of how to be the ship?
Well that’s even more haunting. Thank you
A very good episode, and one that surprisingly nihilistic: the goop crew all due one by one, inches from help, all memory of them doomed to be lost. The most anyone might be aware of them is if the aliens they traded with keep records and they are compared to the "real" voyager records.
There are a couple of plot holes, to wit: a) how did they forgot what they were, and b) did they clone the ship itself or somehow build a whole starship by themselves? But they feel unimportant in the face of a great episode full of good character work, an interesting concept, and a deliciously brutal ending. Top marks
6:43 woman seems to have had enough of Paris.
I found this episode rather harrowing. The idea of being gone, completely, with no memory or trave of who we were.
I always loved this episode, and couldn't wait for you to get to it. I'm glad so many others enjoyed it too. It was a complete story done as well as you could do it.
4:06 "Faced with the threat...." That made me literally laugh out loud.
The constant shade towards Paris will never not be funny
When you posted your review of Demon - I mentioned this ‘sequel’ being the most depressing episode of the series. My opinion remains the same. Loving your analysis. Goop Group was hysterically funny and appropriate
11:24 wait, did Seven always wear heels?
Yup. Part of the costume 'designed by the Doc' in The Gift, and one I pointed out as being a questionable medical choice back then even before you bring ladders into the equation.
You gave points to the costume designers, but half those points need to be taken away. Lt. Paris was a full Lieutenant (two solid pips) whereas Goop Paris was a Lt JG (one solid, one hollow). Perhaps Goop Paris did, in fact, experience the events of "Thirty Days", but did something that Meatbag Paris didn't do, to earn a promotion.
I mean, Goop Kim got promoted from Ensign to Captain in a few hours, so they were handing out promotions left and right.
Woof.
Paris is either a victim of Season One Pip Fuckery, or gets demoted somewhere along the way. He's a Lt(JG) from some point in S2. I haven't tracked down exactly where, but he's wearing the black and gold pips in Threshold.
Either way, junior grade pips are what he's wearing in Thirty Days before demotion, so it's right for GoopParis.
I was expecting goop Harry Kim making a chishe last stand in a desimtegretd Bridge, before succumbing to its fate. But that fact that did not hapen just makes everything darker , transmitting the tragedy of their existence, not only been erase, but also ending with out a last fight for their existence.
In some way , they never had a chance
4:05 - Face with the threat of spending an uninterrupted week with Tom Paris, she dies.
Fuckin hell man. That was brutal and nearly made me do a dead. LOL
That 47 in the countdown made me belly laugh. Scared my cat.
Spock after the search for Spock is actually just a copy with memories planted in them also
So I like this episode, I really do, it's tragic, well written and a great deconstruction of the characters. The issue I have is how is the goo copying voyager? From what we saw in the episode it has to cover every part to make a full copy, so did they bury Voyager fully and let the goo flood every compartment?
Deconstruction of the characters...I see what you did there.
Um actually isn’t that exactly what happened, more or less? Back on demon planet Voyager landed and they let the ship sink into the silver goo?
@@clairewilliams9416 They sucked up the struts, but not the entire ship
In many ways this was the best episode of the franchise. From an existential philosophical perspective. Like Dostoevsky.
_Thomas Riker enters the chat._
A very good episode. Tragedy done very well indeed
Due to a transporter incident the exploration of duplication was also explored in the TNG episode Second Chances which had a commander William Riker come face to face with a duplicate of himself this was further explored in the DS9 episode Defiant with the now Thomas Riker.
Always felt that the word "transference" was doing a lot of heavy lifting in Star Trek. In TOS final episode "Turnabout Intruder", Kirk is actually transferred with Janice Lester and they aren't duplicated, that was transference, anything else is sparkling copying.
13:33 The two rounded rocks in the foreground, are identical.
All hail Skull Dog and Space Dog! All hail the replicators! I think my main gripe with this episode was the lack of consequences. Yes the goop people all died, but Voyager didn't know or care. It felt like we were getting to know these characters all over again but there wasn't any point since at the end of 45 minutes, they would never be brought up again. It didn't sit easy with me.
Perhaps if the message in a bottle / probe has survived the destruction and someone picked it up. The destruction of the probe felt like a kick in the gonads and made it feel pointless.
Damn, if only they could have shared those warp upgrades with original Voyager. Starfleet would love to have that kind of warp.
The "is a perfect copy less real than the original" question is kinda old news at this point considering transporters literally take a scan of you at the source location, kill the "original" you by ripping your body apart and converting it into energy and then reconstitute what is essentially a new copy of you at the destination using the scan pattern and the transferred energy... whether the fact that you experience/remember it as a continuous stream of consciousness actually makes you the same person when you step off the transporter pad is something every transporter user has to reconcile with themselves.
Also lets not forget the other previous instance of this, Thomas Riker, who really is biologically identical to Will and has all the same memories right up until the transporter fuck-up occurred.
The captain can indeed conduct weddings. That goes back at least as far as Kirk.
But one of those episodes that give an idea of what could have. A super fact turbo warp, captain Harry Goop Kim, different relationships, a follow up to a previous episode.
The only weak point is that real Janeway just moves on and doesn't at least do a science on the cloud.
And the "if you dicover that you are a copy" thought comes back to transporter clone Riker, who was left on a shitty planet for 8 years because of a science, is still a Lieutenant and ends up joining the Marquis and nicks the Defiant with them.
Bot were absolutely identical, they were the same person, literally, until that accident, and then split. And they are different people because of the experiences they gathered since they split.
Tuvok on the real Voyager did a scan of the goop cloud which should have sounded familiar to Janeway and co...but was never mentioned.
4:05 "....she dies" I LOL'd
I feel like this is one of the many lost potentials that the Star Trek universe could offer. Instead of a single one-off episode, the goop voyager crew could have provided many experiences to further explore things that the og crew couldn't. An entire parallel adventure. And if the writers were very bold, it would be amazing to see an entire civilization born out of the goop planet that could either join or battle the federation.
Sadly, their lack of commitment to long term consequences means that even this single episode being based on a previous event was far more than would have been expected. Instead of being part of a rich and fertile field of universe development, it is resigned to being a small oasis in the continuity desert.
Very very much agree.
If you really want to read those stories you could always just write them yourself.
@@ThomasstevenSlater That takes talent and practice. There are some excellent fan fiction writers, a lot are not. The OP is merely expressing an opinion that does not affect you in any way.
You really really don't want to be in a situation to be reading the stuff I write. It's the "If you are reading this, things have gone very badly wrong" kind.
10:30 my God this is such a hilarious observation.
"Is it possible to copy a blank sheet of paper?"😂
Yes, to both Harry and an actual blank sheet of paper. 🤣 It just goes through the printer.
I never understood how they were able to duplicate the ship, and if they only had 2/3 of the original crew, wouldn't they realize something is wrong since a good chunk are missing? Even if they forgot they were clones, they would have to know something is wrong.
The only known difference between the two crews is Paris rank. This was intentional so the audience would not know which episodes followed the original Voyager and which episodes followed the duplicate Voyager.
At first, the copies could not tolerate leaving the planet. Then, they all board the ship and leave the planet - without any problems or anxieties......because REASONS
A fair criticism, and one I considered covering, but if they can go from 0-sentience in a day then any progress from that point on is potentially reasonable. For all we know, they aren't even the original copies (so to speak).
This shows again how bad a captain Janeway is. Once she learnt the news she should have set a course for the planet they came from to keep her crew safe. Once a solution is found she can resume the voyage to earth, but no, captain ahab has to kill her white whale.
it kind of reminds me of the game SOMA, with the copies of people not realizing they're copies really
Love this episode
I liked this one to a point, I always thought it was like a better version of "TNG:Second Chances" but it always bugged me as to why the goop brigade 'forgot' where they came from
Because the Voyager crew's memories overlaid the memories of the silver blodd creatures.
14:53 you could have also mentioned those times that Riker and Boimler got duplicated
I would have called the episode 'Course: Skyrim' myself.
I'm 'Course: Daggerfall' old myself. Never did get round to finishing that...
My gripe with this story - how long was it before the copies started their journey? What course did they take? Why was the real Voyager anywhere near them to be able to hear and respond to the distress call? They should have been far away at that point - shouldn't they?
Poor maybe baby wasn't even a thought on the real voyager 😢
It's been many years since i've seen this show. But why is 7 there? Wasnt the goop episode before she was a part of the show?
Probably worth commenting that goop-Kim is a copy of duplicate-Kim, just with all the questions of self you brought up there at the end
Trekkie version of *Attack on Cloudbase* where all the main characters died.
A really good episode, one of my favourites. It's really quite sad that no-one knows the copy ever existed and there is no nice ending to it. Kate Mulgrew is excellent.
(As a side note, at the beginning with the Paris/Torres, I'm always surprised that marriage is still a thing in the distant future. Especially since most of Starfleet staff never seem to have relationships, never mind live together! They seem to just go from a semi-long relationship and suddenly they're married and have kids. Ugh.)
Perhaps marriage is just one of those things. It's not seen as essential but if two or more people love each other enough, it's a celebration.
Since they visited several planets they would have had adventures on at least some of them. Because even goo Janeway is Janeway they would have had major effects on some of the planets they visited, effects that would be be remembered for millennia.
@@vservo1149@ptonpc
Not everyone gets married and have children, nowadays, though. Many of my friends aren't married, but are in long-term relationships and many don't have children. Don't get me wrong, I'm married myself (although we don't have children through choice), but it seems to happen to Paris and Torres in a very short period of time. The time limits of TV, though, I guess. It's just I would have thought by then, that (for humans, anyway) that marriage would be a much rarer concept in a few centuries.
The Vorta get cloned and have their memories copied. Newer clones are treated as continuations of their predecessors.
I don't recall the silver blood duplicating the ship, just the crew.
the ship was sinking into the silver blood, so it makes sense that they copied the ship since it was in direct contact with it. of course, a ship isn't just its outer hull / shape, but it's sci-fi after all.
This is another very interesting episode for me, because I have always hated it for its bleakness. It's my least favourite episode in the franchise. I recall reading that the showrunners considered this episode to be very polarizing; people either love it or they hate it. Given how many people here seem to have enjoyed it, I'm curious why so many people find it satisfying while I find it terribly depressing.
I really liked the consideration of the topic of identity in this video (Data would be another interesting example of a character who has 'died' and had his memories copied iirc). The essence of a person is a difficult thing to pin down, and some psychologists assert that memories really are the one thing that are unique to and defining of a person (nobody else has your life story). I suppose one tragic element to this story is how the goop-crew believed they belonged in a part of the galaxy where they'd never be able to survive. Janeway's drive to get her crew 'home', usually a source of strength for the real Janeway, is in this case her tragic flaw. Perhaps the reason I hate this episode so much is because, due to the false memories, even if Janeway had chosen to return to the demon planet, most of the crew would likely never be happy there.
Is it possible to copy a black sheet of paper? HAHAHA! Gold Star for that one.
I actually like that, "I'm sht so thanks for having me" idea for vows. It is really strange they would bother with dress uniforms when there isno federation in sight. Ohh Voyager and its excuses for putting the crew through serious stuff with no lasting consequences. Sigh. It's a shame we never see Tom and Belana's actual wedding instead, but oh well I guess.
One of the best episodes of the show. Lol can you copy a plank sheet of paper?!?!
Wouldn't the fact that Voyager has the contact on the demon planet in its logs be proof they existed?
yeah, but they didn't know the silver blood version of them decided to head to Earth or leave their planet at all.
Ok. My turn for pedantry...
When you said that the Doc didn't get a dress uniform possibly because the costume dept didn't have "anything in green", shouldn't he wear a blue dress uniform since he's Medical?
I think they're mostly blue but sometimes green, and sometimes the doctors and scientists just like to get changed multiple times a day, depending on who is in charge of lighting and colour correction for that episode.
Question is how do you know your not a copy ? 🤔
I didn't think Demon was too bad, but I have to say, I wasn't a massive fan of this one. I can see the positives if you're into character exploration or tragedy that is absolute, but it's hard to get over just how contrived the entire episode is. From how the goop made a perfect copy of Voyager (like how t-f does that work?), to how the copies are so perfect that they remember the childhoods they never experienced, yet have conveniently forgotten how they were formed or where they took off from, right through to how they're speeding through the galaxy in a super warp drive superior to the original Voyager's, yet somehow manage to almost bump right into Voyager right at the end for the too little too late finale, it just doesn't work for me. But fair play to those who could suspend their disbelief to enjoy the goopy ride.
About the crew being copies. Some regard the act of teleportation destroys the original and whatever appears on the pad is a copy. In that case everyone in Star Fleet is a copy!
My biggest issue with this episode isn't even this episodes fault.
It may be a later season's or series' fault for some final after Voyager review vidi.
So am i the only one that sees the blaring plot hole in thia episode. I dont want to bw the nerdy trekky, but can anyone put stardate of when they landed on the demon planet, how many bonus jump skips the original voyager got and to the current stardate? Because if im not mistaken goop voyager must have had passed thru some wormholes or what not to be able to be near original voyager almost 2 year headstart.
Or it can easily all be explained as an origins episode that took place just months after the original voyager left the demon planet.
Stardate is consistent with being in chronological order of season 5. Demon has no stardate so could potentially be at any point, but the lack of Paris demotion puts it before Thirty Days.
The distance thing is largely covered by the warp core upgrade that causes their medical condition. They said 2 years to get home by slipping through galactic centre, so even the 30,000+ LY gain made by Original Voyager is piss poor compared to that. If that speed is consistent, they were actually much further ahead than Original Voyager and just happened to meet them on the way back.
@@Unlimited_Lives If only they could have shared those warp upgrades with Voyager and Starfleet. It's something they don't seem to figure out for at least another 100 years. I wonder if GoopBlanna, GoopSeven, and GoopHarry figured it out on their own and what encounter sparked the innovation.
Holy cow, you are the man sir. I never thought about that. That super upgraded warp core could have caught up with them in just a few days or weeks.@@Unlimited_Lives
You could make the same argument with Thomas Riker and the transporter.. i mean i thunk they already have a more expanded view of life and of humanity that includes transhumanism.
If the silver goop duplicates people by sampling their DNA, how does ot replicate technology?
It sampled the DNA from the bio-neural gel packs and something something quantum encoding something.
@@wendyheatherwood😂
😁👍
Enjoy your weekend!
i dont think ive told this story before at least here. voyager was 'my' trek growing up sure i watched a few episodes of tos, tng and ds9 eather on reruns or on video rented from my local video store or recorded our selfs (remember when that was a thing children, makes you feel old dont it?) but voygaer was my trek. its what i returned to and what i thought of as trek for much of my childhood. and while ive gotten older and wiser and see the flaws the failure's , the missed chances the unwillingness to change or challenge the status qu the repeated head butting of the reset button.
there is still apart of me that looks to voyager especial in this era of trek with rose coloured glasses. but i say this with out hyperbole or humor or an any attempt to get a rise out of anyone. this 2ed only episode in all of trekdom i refuse to rewatch. it is bitter, hateful, cruel and nihilistic just a meddle finger in my opinion to those that enjoy voyager and perhaps even trek itself. the only other episode that rivals it is the episode of picard were icehb is killed for seemingly shock value and nothing else
Good lord I hate this episode so much. Easily one of the worst of Voyager, if not the absolute worst. The actions of this duplicate crew make no sense, and I truly do not care at all. Single episode tragedies can work, but this one did not.
i think that this was an attempt to cancel the show!
or at least the higher ups feeble attempt for wanting it, LMFAO!!!!
I think in Star Trek Captains can in fact just marry anyone. At least comic books and Strange New Worlds seem to think so...
See this was a good episode. My issue is, how the hell did the goop Harry and goop Tom not realize they weren't the real Tom and Harry???
please elaborate (no one realised what they were)
@eliza.rose.morrison Let me re-watch it, and I'll get back to you. I don't remember what I was thinking when I made this comment.
@eliza.rose.morrison I just remembered just before I watched. My thought had to do with an earlier episode where Voyager encountered the substance first. Harry and Tom were both replicated by the goop, and as I understand it, these are the same copies. They talked to the Voyager crew and stuff they knew they weren't real by the end of the episode, and they replicated the whole crew. So, I guess that was my confusion.
@@remrad4315 Now that you mention it, it does seem odd that they forgot that interaction. Every other copy never got to interact with the original or anyone else, but these two did have that opportunity, they should technically remember that. I suppose we can blame it on their slow decay, but the writers probably forgot. And now that I've thought about that episode a bit more, I wonder what happened to that small sample of silver blood that turned into Be'lana's finger.
The first episode where the duplication happens is called Demon (S04E24).
@eliza.rose.morrison I'm not sure myself. It never occurred to me that the deterioration could also be psychological too. Honestly, I can just accept that as the truth and move on. I wish there were more nods to continuity in this show. As for the finger, I got no idea.
Wait. You brought up another Ship of Theseus.
Kurn's mind was wiped. But we still know him as Kurn.
The goo-Voyager have the memories, but different bodies. No different than Data transferring to something else.
I disliked this episode, because there was no buoy.
This bleeds into transporter clones, and trill symbionts.
Dang. Nice philosophical call.
Why did Thomas Riker have to rename himself? Just because Will hadn’t been marooned? Thomas was less of an ass IMO, I rather liked him more
It's just easier for the guy who hadn't officially existed for seven years to change his name. He didn't even have anyone around to have called him "Will".
Did the marriage of Tom and B'Elanna actually take place on the real Voyager...?
Eventually! S7E03: Drive.
I really liked the episode but I do have problems with it... How did they copy Voyager? I thought the goo just copied people... And... Was 7 even part of the crew when they were copied? I'm not sure and too lazy to check...
Other then that - fine episode.
1st question - the ship was sinking into the silver blood, so it makes sense that they copied the ship since it was in direct contact with it. of course, a ship isn't just its outer hull / shape, but it's sci-fi after all.
2nd question - I'm too lazy to check, and I don't remember either... never mind, I did decide to check as I was writing this. 7 of 9 joined in S04E01. The episode Demon is S04E24, so she was here already. Incidentally, the episode Demon comes right after Living Witness, the one with the copy of the Doctor activated 700 years in the future.
is it possible to copy a blank sheet of paper? ok here's a tree and some rubber. without the proper (upbringing, teaching, experiences) machines to create it I wish you luck my dude.
Yeah it's a good episode but the fact that they duplicated the ship without any explanation makes ZERO sense and ruined it for me. They needed DNA to create and the ship has no DNA. Even a weak explanation would of been better than none.