Whilst it is more common on UA-cam to knock the upcoming GPU’s, I try to look past this to the future in the medium term and the adoption of new technologies that will benefit VR.
9 годин тому+13
Might be wrong but as I understand it, the bottleneck today isn't the bandwidth of the DP but the missing raw power required to run the most top-end headsets at full resolution and still have good performance. Either way, let's see what the new 5000 series graphics cards will offer IRL for flight sim and VR in particular. Also as Steve (VR flight sim guy) mentioned in a clip I just watched, let's also see how the 4000 series graphics cards will perform once they will be able to use DLSS 4
@@SimHangerFS Indeed. Frame Generation might be okay for flat screens, but for VR is useless. All those fake frames don't work on VR. The only new card that is more powerful is the 5090, but they have increased the price significantly, $2000, which means over 2300 euros in Europe. Nope. I'll stick to my 4090.
7 годин тому
So back to the topic of this video, in what way are we VR users supposed to benefit from the new DP 2.0 vs the current 1.4 on our 4090:s?
Great catch Mark! Faster bandwidth certainly can't hurt. I think this was Pimax's major complaint why they couldn't do the Super 12k... I guess we will see if they finally get that headset back in the works with the new cards. Time will tell I guess.
im going for a 5090, aswell im upgrading my entire pc, from a Am4 ryzen 9 5800x, 3080 - to a Ryzen 7 8900X3D, 5090 an my old HP r..G2, to a pimax crystall lite.. Im so excited
Congrats but based on Mark's comment, I think it might be worth to wait if Pimax releases versions of their headsets with DP 2.1bso it takes full advantage of your 5070 bandwidth. It's going to be interesting to follow.
I'm currently have a 4090 and I'm glad all this tech is coming out. So the next generation of VR headset which are 2-3 years out probably include display port 2.1 and also monitors will start to have display port 2.1 . So I'm going to wait and upgrade when the 6090 come out because that's when display port 2.1 will be the standard. Currently games are not offering much of an upgrade, games are not pushing the graphics, everything at this point is just a minimal upgrade.
I'm still trying to find out what the maximum video resolution decode of the 5000 series gpus are. With 8k VR headsets, we would benefit from 12k video and my 3080 can just do 8k60.
I did think about waiting to get a 5000 series video card but then i would have to get a new power supply and don't want to do that. I'm happy with my 750w power supply. besides i just had to replace my hot water tank in the house and that is more important. I do wish we had a store were i could try different VR head sets but we don't have that here.
The bandwidth of DP2.1 is 80 Gbps compared to the 25 Gbps effective bandwidth of DP1.4 Since DP2.1 standard is with us for more than 2 years now many people ask how come that VR headset manufacturers still stick to DP1.4? Well, the reason is that in order to push that data you also need a chip that handles the job. And at present time to my knowledge the best chip can handle 40 Gbps which is not much more than DP1.4 can do.
Good that we have 2.1 for more resolution/data throughput, but because the rasterization uplift isn't as significant in this generation, I don't know how much it matters right now. Nothing can really drive flight sim resolutions that high satisfactorily, and due to impending silicon limits, it may take 5-10 years before we see pure rasterization performance double again. On the other hand, if nvidia can bring some of it's AI frame generation techniques or other methods to VR, then we could get an exponential uplift in the coming years. We will see. Combined with the hope of eye tracking on more headsets, and subsequently if devs thus start implementing quad views in their titles, then these factors combined could finally put DP2.1 to use. We could have ultra wide FOV headsets with 60ppd, using eye tracked DFR and AI generation techniques to render a realistic number of pixels without meaningful reduction in visual fidelity. So, we will see. Depending on the level of support/investment into VR, we could be waiting many many years for another big leap forward - or only just a few.
Good info thanks 😊 Am i right in saying VR doesnt recognize/see these "fake frames" generated by the gpu's ? ... The new cards purported to generate 3 extra frames i think.
@MRSPORTYTRUCKER dlss 4 can work, just not the frame gen. Should get improved upscaling image quality. Been doing this with dlss swapper, on older games. It helps. Current is dlss 3.8
The 5090 just doesn't have a great enough jump in rast for me (15-25% I just can't see myself upgrading from a 4090. It also is so clustered and has such a high wattage, I'm afraid there will be some issues seeing that they still have not left from the 12vhpwr connector. I'm going to pass on this gen.
Probably not a game changer for msfs 2020/2024 until we get better CPU's, together with better multi-threading. I'm hoping to ride out the 5000 series and sticking with my i913900k/rtx4090/32Gb 6400ram/z790mb PC. Of coarse if it actually proves out to be a ~50% performance improvement with msfs 2020/2024, I'll probably upgrade everything, lol!
Anything less than the 5090 is a waste of money IMO. Compare the stats between the 4080 Super and 5080… leaves alot to be desired even with the additional bandwidth of GDDR7. Something just seems amiss with the way the 50 series has been marketed… I hope I’ll be eating my words come end of Jan :)
I am an MSFS VR junkie… MY WANT: * Absolute max quality AND performance MY BUDGET: * 4080 Super (after saving up; just as 5000-series cards are released)
That's a good card, you should be able to play Cyberpunk2077 in VR with mods without any problems, this is the only thing my RTX 4070 laptop won't do well. It's so bad that I had to stop trying, but it's great for playing any other games, including VR games like Half-Life Alyx.
Reviews of the RX 5000 series I am reading have not been good - but then again MSFS 2024 reviews are not good either. The RTX 4090 is the best bang for buck card on the market, and I will not be upgrading to the RTX 5090. I am interested to see my RTX 4090 running with a new processor and motherboard when they come out. RTX 4090 are almost sold out here in Australia.
Yet. The quest 3 does not use the hdmi or display port, boggles the mind. Most ppl can’t afford the higher end headsets. It still pisses me off the Reverb G2 is going to turn into a brick in October of this year. In the short term, this is optimistic.
DLSS 4.0 could be a game changer for sure ( even for 4090 users) if you understand that DLSS is the Future (and present) of PC graphics/gaming. TAA is not. Even in VR.
Not really, and even less for flight seems. DLSS/FSR make numbers blurry in glass cockpits because of the ghosting, so they are unusable. And frame generation is not compatible, as they are just fake frames, for VR. So yeah, not a game changer, we stay as we were. We need more raw power.
@@valrond The ghosting problem was massively improved in this gen, on both DLSS and FSR; that was one of the key improvement points. Also, just bc DLSS/FSR are not usable for VR at this juncture, it doesn't mean that this will always be the norm. This new paradigm can be revolutionary for the technology.
@@valrond This is similar to putting turbos on cars with 4-cylinder engines, giving you a little more performance, but it's not the same raw power of a V8. So, these companies are basically making these products with more performance, but they are doing it taking a shortcut.
@@valrond look, if you don't use an appropriate configuration in dlss Right now for VR you might see a blurry cockpit. I made a guide that most VR guys (UA-camrs) don't want me to share because they insist with TAA. Nvidia knows a bit more than us about this so the future is ai, not massive $4000 GPUs. Dlss 4.0 will bring less ghosting check all the footage that some professional reviewers are sharing right now. Night and day difference.
nVidia's DLSS and AMD's FSR are just smoke and mirrors to cover what the hardware can't do (not powerful enough), agreed, DLSS can look really good on a monitor but not so great in High Res VR since the optics are so close to your eyes, you see the degradation in visual clarity of DLSS and FSR, after all, it is a upscaling tech kind of like a 4K TV, ever watch a 480P DVD, it's watchable but looks no where as good as a native 4k signal. As for a GPU's raw grunt (what we need for VR), I'm starting to believe that they have reached a brick wall, the speed of electricity has become a limitation. As much as I hate to admit, personally, I don't think it will get to where it needs to be anytime soon.
Yes just like CPU's physical electrical limitations the silicon technology has pretty much plateau'd. There will be less and drastic improvements in gpu and cpu going forward unless they come out with a totally different substrate material to replace silicone.
Whilst it is more common on UA-cam to knock the upcoming GPU’s, I try to look past this to the future in the medium term and the adoption of new technologies that will benefit VR.
Might be wrong but as I understand it, the bottleneck today isn't the bandwidth of the DP but the missing raw power required to run the most top-end headsets at full resolution and still have good performance. Either way, let's see what the new 5000 series graphics cards will offer IRL for flight sim and VR in particular. Also as Steve (VR flight sim guy) mentioned in a clip I just watched, let's also see how the 4000 series graphics cards will perform once they will be able to use DLSS 4
DLSS4 Is not VR compatible. Nvidia have some bogus marketing, but have not stated any VR performance statistics as far as I am aware.
@@SimHangerFS Why that, since DLSS3 works with VR?
@@oczhaal DLSS 3 works as it doesnt include frame gen, thats 3.5 which isnt VR compatible. VR only supports upscaling not frame generating
@@SimHangerFS Indeed. Frame Generation might be okay for flat screens, but for VR is useless. All those fake frames don't work on VR.
The only new card that is more powerful is the 5090, but they have increased the price significantly, $2000, which means over 2300 euros in Europe. Nope. I'll stick to my 4090.
So back to the topic of this video, in what way are we VR users supposed to benefit from the new DP 2.0 vs the current 1.4 on our 4090:s?
Great catch Mark! Faster bandwidth certainly can't hurt. I think this was Pimax's major complaint why they couldn't do the Super 12k... I guess we will see if they finally get that headset back in the works with the new cards. Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again Mark for the education. Keep up the great work. 👍🏻
The problems is nobody has test it yet! But nice explanation.
nicely spotted my friend.....the first good news of 2025....lets pray things improve because as for now the hype is the only thing that's going up .
Higher framerates in VR = more fun.
I’ve been using wireless vr for almost 6 years…
im going for a 5090, aswell im upgrading my entire pc, from a Am4 ryzen 9 5800x, 3080 - to a Ryzen 7 8900X3D, 5090 an my old HP r..G2, to a pimax crystall lite.. Im so excited
Congrats but based on Mark's comment, I think it might be worth to wait if Pimax releases versions of their headsets with DP 2.1bso it takes full advantage of your 5070 bandwidth. It's going to be interesting to follow.
Excited to see some of the 5000 series in action running MSFS 2024. Then we can start making informed choices.
I'm currently have a 4090 and I'm glad all this tech is coming out. So the next generation of VR headset which are 2-3 years out probably include display port 2.1 and also monitors will start to have display port 2.1 . So I'm going to wait and upgrade when the 6090 come out because that's when display port 2.1 will be the standard. Currently games are not offering much of an upgrade, games are not pushing the graphics, everything at this point is just a minimal upgrade.
I'm still trying to find out what the maximum video resolution decode of the 5000 series gpus are. With 8k VR headsets, we would benefit from 12k video and my 3080 can just do 8k60.
I did think about waiting to get a 5000 series video card but then i would have to get a new power supply and don't want to do that. I'm happy with my 750w power supply. besides i just had to replace my hot water tank in the house and that is more important. I do wish we had a store were i could try different VR head sets but we don't have that here.
If the result is as bad as DLLS 3 I don't have many illusions
How about a step by step, simple vr basic for new folks like me.
Lots of those videos out there. I'm not going to hijack Mark's channel with links but I have one at GYGOtv if you are really interested.
The bandwidth of DP2.1 is 80 Gbps compared to the 25 Gbps effective bandwidth of DP1.4 Since DP2.1 standard is with us for more than 2 years now many people ask how come that VR headset manufacturers still stick to DP1.4? Well, the reason is that in order to push that data you also need a chip that handles the job. And at present time to my knowledge the best chip can handle 40 Gbps which is not much more than DP1.4 can do.
Good that we have 2.1 for more resolution/data throughput, but because the rasterization uplift isn't as significant in this generation, I don't know how much it matters right now. Nothing can really drive flight sim resolutions that high satisfactorily, and due to impending silicon limits, it may take 5-10 years before we see pure rasterization performance double again. On the other hand, if nvidia can bring some of it's AI frame generation techniques or other methods to VR, then we could get an exponential uplift in the coming years. We will see. Combined with the hope of eye tracking on more headsets, and subsequently if devs thus start implementing quad views in their titles, then these factors combined could finally put DP2.1 to use. We could have ultra wide FOV headsets with 60ppd, using eye tracked DFR and AI generation techniques to render a realistic number of pixels without meaningful reduction in visual fidelity. So, we will see. Depending on the level of support/investment into VR, we could be waiting many many years for another big leap forward - or only just a few.
Good info thanks 😊
Am i right in saying VR doesnt recognize/see these "fake frames" generated by the gpu's ? ... The new cards purported to generate 3 extra frames i think.
That's correct unfortunately
Positive tech maybe but negative for wallet :(
You’re being kind to yourself when you say “maybe.”
@@baomao7243 Maybe will buy when 6000 or 7000 series will out but now still with 3080. Poor me 😭😭
Fingers crossed for a DLSS 4.0 clarity miracle, because we need it for MSFS 2024
DLSS4 wont work, frame gen doesnt work in VR which is why we only have DLSS 3 not 3.5 in VR
@MRSPORTYTRUCKER dlss 4 can work, just not the frame gen. Should get improved upscaling image quality. Been doing this with dlss swapper, on older games. It helps. Current is dlss 3.8
Frame gen can be in place of asw/ssw, just needs implementation from nvidia .
@@justinhogue9861 100%, FG/MFG are just one feature of 3.5/4. DLSS and frame gen are really two different technologies.
The 5090 just doesn't have a great enough jump in rast for me (15-25% I just can't see myself upgrading from a 4090. It also is so clustered and has such a high wattage, I'm afraid there will be some issues seeing that they still have not left from the 12vhpwr connector. I'm going to pass on this gen.
Probably not a game changer for msfs 2020/2024 until we get better CPU's, together with better multi-threading. I'm hoping to ride out the 5000 series and sticking with my i913900k/rtx4090/32Gb 6400ram/z790mb PC. Of coarse if it actually proves out to be a ~50% performance improvement with msfs 2020/2024, I'll probably upgrade everything, lol!
Anything less than the 5090 is a waste of money IMO. Compare the stats between the 4080 Super and 5080… leaves alot to be desired even with the additional bandwidth of GDDR7. Something just seems amiss with the way the 50 series has been marketed… I hope I’ll be eating my words come end of Jan :)
thing is if the future is built on AI frame gen we can't use in VR or adds latency then none of this matters
5090 seems to have poor VR improvements which is very disappointing!
I am an MSFS VR junkie…
MY WANT:
* Absolute max quality AND performance
MY BUDGET:
* 4080 Super (after saving up; just as 5000-series cards are released)
That's a good card, you should be able to play Cyberpunk2077 in VR with mods without any problems, this is the only thing my RTX 4070 laptop won't do well. It's so bad that I had to stop trying, but it's great for playing any other games, including VR games like Half-Life Alyx.
Reviews of the RX 5000 series I am reading have not been good - but then again MSFS 2024 reviews are not good either. The RTX 4090 is the best bang for buck card on the market, and I will not be upgrading to the RTX 5090. I am interested to see my RTX 4090 running with a new processor and motherboard when they come out. RTX 4090 are almost sold out here in Australia.
Throwing more horespower (and money) at an unoptimized mess is not the answer.
Yet. The quest 3 does not use the hdmi or display port, boggles the mind. Most ppl can’t afford the higher end headsets. It still pisses me off the Reverb G2 is going to turn into a brick in October of this year.
In the short term, this is optimistic.
5090, without frame generation, is only 20-40% faster than 4090. For £2500? No thanks.
Given the price of 4090’s (at the moment anyway), for those of us with 3090’s it could very well be worth the upgrade to the 5090.
@ watch the market flooded with used 4090’s soon when everyone eager to get new tech dumps them in favour of 5090’s
@@ianrivaldosmith quite possibly….. we don’t have long to wait to see! 😁
DLSS 4.0 could be a game changer for sure ( even for 4090 users) if you understand that DLSS is the Future (and present) of PC graphics/gaming. TAA is not. Even in VR.
Not really, and even less for flight seems. DLSS/FSR make numbers blurry in glass cockpits because of the ghosting, so they are unusable. And frame generation is not compatible, as they are just fake frames, for VR. So yeah, not a game changer, we stay as we were. We need more raw power.
@@valrond The ghosting problem was massively improved in this gen, on both DLSS and FSR; that was one of the key improvement points. Also, just bc DLSS/FSR are not usable for VR at this juncture, it doesn't mean that this will always be the norm. This new paradigm can be revolutionary for the technology.
@@valrond This is similar to putting turbos on cars with 4-cylinder engines, giving you a little more performance, but it's not the same raw power of a V8. So, these companies are basically making these products with more performance, but they are doing it taking a shortcut.
@@valrond look, if you don't use an appropriate configuration in dlss Right now for VR you might see a blurry cockpit. I made a guide that most VR guys (UA-camrs) don't want me to share because they insist with TAA. Nvidia knows a bit more than us about this so the future is ai, not massive $4000 GPUs. Dlss 4.0 will bring less ghosting check all the footage that some professional reviewers are sharing right now. Night and day difference.
They dont care about VR
They should keep this way to overpriced "highTech". Buy gold instead!
nVidia's DLSS and AMD's FSR are just smoke and mirrors to cover what the hardware can't do (not powerful enough), agreed, DLSS can look really good on a monitor but not so great in High Res VR since the optics are so close to your eyes, you see the degradation in visual clarity of DLSS and FSR, after all, it is a upscaling tech kind of like a 4K TV, ever watch a 480P DVD, it's watchable but looks no where as good as a native 4k signal.
As for a GPU's raw grunt (what we need for VR), I'm starting to believe that they have reached a brick wall, the speed of electricity has become a limitation. As much as I hate to admit, personally, I don't think it will get to where it needs to be anytime soon.
Yes just like CPU's physical electrical limitations the silicon technology has pretty much plateau'd. There will be less and drastic improvements in gpu and cpu going forward unless they come out with a totally different substrate material to replace silicone.
@@vracan I wonder if they ever perfect "Superconductivity" if that will help. LOL
@@jackr.749 yeah Ive been hearing about that hype from 10 years ago and still nothing
can we stop calling pimax crystal high-end headset? It's never been
high end as in high resolution which is true!
@@vracan😂