i thank you for making the video i would have done if i was an established youtuber but also less aggressive. (seriously i would have called into question all big zelda tuber's sanity)
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊 Hey there are we still waiting for the kids Hey 😢😢😢😢😮 😢👸
Since BotW i've felt that series was going thru a soft reboot. It's the only explanation that makes the most sense. This became more apparent with TotK. It feels like the developers don't really want to commit to any hard timeline placements and only want to acknowledge past games in the form of fun Easter eggs and references.
I don't think Nintendo took the lore and the inconsistencies seriously until they'd already written themselves into a convoluted, 3 timeline corner. Now that the canon has started to be so consequential, they're _TRYING_ to fix it, but there isn't any efficient way to properly merge them into anything cohesive, so they're just going the "Don't look behind the curtain" route. Or possibly even leaving it so vague, so that the ZeldaTubers will theorize an acceptable answer FOR them and they can say, "Yeah, that's what we mean" when really they didn't even know themselves haha
Its the Legend of zelda, yes their are games that fit together as a greater lore but i always thought of it as the same story just being retold threw the generations.
As though some elder was telling you the story of zelda 1 and 2, then you as a parent retell the story but this time its a link to the past, then your kid retells the story at recess and it becomes OoT. Then their kids ask about what happens next, and one parent makes up the story of wind waker and the other tells the story of twilight princess. Then their kids ask about the master sword and they make up skyward sword.Its a legend that changes threw the generations but it all started with link just saving a princess.
They never really cared about the timeline to begin with they pretty much made one because of years of fans asking for one but the timeline says subject to change and Nintendo has said numerous times that they'll make the games they want to make first and if they remember they'll try and place it into the timeline but they think a timeline is more restraining than anything
You still get stuff like ocarina of time leads to Majora's and finally twilight Princess or a link to the past into the oracle games and then links awakening or the windwaker trilogy but straight up cannon for all the games doesn't work too well I mean a timeline where you don't beat ocarina of time is kinda dumb to begin with
I think something that flat out proves this is something we learn from Gannondorf's character profile in totk. Whilst malice will always leak out and cause a Calamity, the only thing that actually damages the seal is Hyrule castle being damaged. Hyrule castle being damaged in Botw is actually the first time Rauru's seal was weakened. And because we see Hyrule castle get flat out destroyed multiple times this means that Gannondorf couldn't be sealed down there during the older games. We know for a fact that Botw and Totk are connected to the existing timeline so them (past & present) taking place after is the only explanation that works.
@@wizcatcheslightning There's also the fact we know what the Ancient Hero of 10000 years ago looks like and he's implied to be some kind of a Zonai/Hylian mix but that wouldn't be possible since in the original Japanese, Ganondorf mentions how the Zonai is effectively extinct by that time and yet the Ancient Hero exists thousands of years from the time of Hyrule's founding so this doesn't make sense. The only possible way I can see these two co-existing is if this was the kingdom of 10000 years ago.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 I worry about this theory - people aren't taking into account the ancient hero is digitagrade and Hylians and Zonai are plantigrade. (Also no glowing ends on the hair-which we see on the Trio dragons and Rauru - though a mix could negate that - there is also the tail - which we only see the likes of on the Last dragon in TotK). There is a high chance the Ancient hero is a mix of all races too - which would be interesting. Or is Link dressed in the Aspect gear who went back in time due to time shenanigans XD. We also know there are other places races live outside Hyrule - nothing says the soul of the Hero has to be from Hyrule.
We know from the stone monument in Hyrule Castle that the Castle itself is meaningless to the seal. The Castle is there so people do not disturb the ground, as doing so might disturb the seal that is deep underneath where the Castle was built. This means that the castle itself could, theoretically, be destroyed as often as one wants without the seal breaking, so long as the damage does not go deep enough underground to disturb the actual location of the seal. This simply means that the damage caused by Calamity Ganon might not have done as much damage to the castle proper as many other instances, but it is the first time the damage went deep enough to disturb the seal (at least, disturb it enough to let it break). So, sadly, that point actually does not actually serve as proof of anything. It is a good idea, but we have some in-game reasoning to doubt it.
The only thing I can't quite follow is how the symbols of the old Hyrule made it into the revered status they have in new Hyrule. Following a total civilizational wipeout, the holy symbols of the Triforce and the Loftwing iconography are still somehow everywhere, most importantly on the crest of Hyrule's royal family. If the Zonai re-founded Hyrule, it would make far more sense for the royal crest of new Hyrule to include things like shrine spirals, secret stones, and Rauru's arm. I will resolve this by assuming there was an event of vast cultural significance involving the goddess Hylia, the Triforce, Loftwings, and the Hylians recovering their Skyloftian roots before, during, or after the first rise of Calamity Ganon. If the new Hylians saw that take place and ascribe their victory over Calamity Ganon to Hylia, Loftwings, and the Triforce, then the iconography could absolutely take root again. Even better if the Link and Zelda of that era found a Hylian Shield from ages long past, the symbols upon mirroring their salvation.
And I think the springs of courage, wisdom, and power had the hyrulian symbol on them and I think they were there before Rauru became the new king and that's maybe another reason why they still share that symbol as the land of Hyrule
I think the mistake here is we are under the assumption that the Zonai RE-FOUNDED Hyrule when in fact, the game suggests that the Rauru and Sonia are THE founders of THE Kingdom of Hyrule. Another zelda tuber made an interesting theory that the third game in this series would take the ALttP route and it is only there that the Triforce will be mentioned for the first time in this universe.
@@gentlemanbronco3246 which he bases on nintendo "remaking" older titles. but that falls apart when one does not ignore "a link between worlds". a literal remake/sequel. the Lttp remake has already been made, link awakening as also been remade. there is nothing in that timeline to be remade....
This is what my first assumption was when playing the game. It just made the most sense to me to assume that Rauru founded a new Hyrule after the previous ones fell. We know this has happened at least once before in the series (e.g. Wind Waker, and probably also Zelda 2) so there's no problem with thinking it could happen again.
@@ZeranZeranbasically because Nintendo specifically said that they didn’t care about timelines because they felt the games would be restrained on the idea of continuity se they just scratched that and waited for the fandom to fill in the blanks just like with this theory (which to be honest I REALLY love this theory as it make everything make sense)
I personally think that BOTW & TOTK take place in a timeline where Hyrule descended from the sky and crushed Demise under it. So it sees echoes of the other timeline, but has its own story going on because Demise didn't survive long enough to put his curse on future generations.
@@dhrgkbqxtjr2743 That's another possibility I've thought of. If we're keeping with the idea that TotK's past is right after skyward sword, then this could be the original timeline that Girahim changed when he brought Zelda back in time.
The people at Nintendo had no idea how important the history and lore was going to be to the players. They just wanted to make a good game. No way did they put a fraction of the energy into making a well thought out timeline which is why we need videos like yours today.
At the time of Ocarina of Time, there was a man who cared about the story, Yoshiaki Koizumi. Except A Link To The Past, the three Zelda on which he worked had a real continuity : Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. But after the last one he left Zelda to focus on Mario, It's at this moment, that the chronology started to loose importance in the stories.
Except no twilight princess acknowledges its in the child timeline. Ganondorf calls the master blade "a fancy sword, but nothing more" because hes never seen it. @@clementrenaud4260
Note that Rauru is speaking present tense. I think it’s up in the air wether he’s aware there was a prior Hyrule, just that it would have been long ago. So I think he is wondering if there is someone making a claim for the kingdom that he’s unaware of
Rauru: "Hmmm, well, we call it the Kingdom of Hyrule because it's in Hyrule, but Hyrule is very large. Is there another kingdom here? It would make sense to have the name, too..."
Zelda might be stronger that Sonia because she bears the Triforce. In game, we know the triforce shows on her hand when she imprisons the Calamnity. Light also emanates from the BACK of her hand when she begins healing the Master sword in TotK, rather then her palm. Some have claimed they can barely see the triforce during that scene. In larger lore, this also makes sense and allows us to explain why the triforce isn’t present. From OOT, when know that the triforce is unique in time travel in that it cannot occupy two places at the same time in the same way as say the Master Sword, which simultaneously exists on Zeldragon and in Links possession during BotW. The triforce doesn’t play by this rule. When OOT Link goes back in time at the end of the game, back to before Ganondorf touched it, he possessed the Triforce of Courage as you can see on his hand in the very last shot of the game. All of a sudden, Ganondorf has the triforce without opening the Sacred Realm, as we see the the flashback in TP. The triforce pieces cannot duplicate, instead the Triforce of Courage stayed with Link, breaking the other two pieces and having them sent to Ganondorf and presumably Zelda. The Divine Prank, then was not a malicious action of the gods, but rather the Triforce not allowing itself to duplicate. TotK Zelda seems to possess the divine light of the Triforce, which amplifies her power.
Monster Maze has a convincing video theory on the same note, “The mystery of the Triforce in Breath of the Wild”: Slyward Sword’s Link also had the entire Triforce inside of him, and in the same way, BotW/TotK Zelda also has the entire Triforce inside of her.
I also noticed that in several cut scenes where Zelda is using a immense amount of power a faint or fuzzy outline of the three triangles can be seen. The best one I can think of is when Rauru gets that boost from both Sonia and Zelda. The triforce is there but in hiding, I feel like they didn't go off so hard bc they had hope to make a trilogy and wanted to bait ppl's curiosity
She almost definitely does, and likely can be seen using it to assist Raru against the swarm of Moldugga. Naturally, with it pumping obscene amounts of magic into a secret stone, the resulting blast is going to be unreal, and the death star beam they produced would seem to verify that.
It also makes a lot of sense because if the kingdom of Hyrule's 3 timelines converged then the effects of that would be utterly catastrophic given you not only have very different people with very different histories, but you would also have three royal families who probably wouldn't want to give up their own power. Combine that with all the monsters and the Downfall Timeline in general, yeah, the original Hyrule falling isn't that big of a stretch.
@@wizcatcheslightning Sorry to hear that. There are also pieces of evidence is Sonia being a descendant of goddess Hylia (and probably SS Link). We see she has tattoos all over her body, which Rauru lacks altogether and Mineru only has a tear on her nose, with one being the Hyrulean Royal Crest with the triforce above the goddess crest, implying this symbolizes her family ancestry. We also see in the ancient past it's this symbol represented Hyrule's royal family and not the Zonai symbol and we see Sonia's crown resembling bird wings. It's also said that she was born to a family of priestesses which would make sense if she was a descendant of the goddess Hylia. We also see hear Ganondorf say that Rauru has taken a Hyrulean woman as his wife, not Hylian. Well, this wouldn't really make much sense if this was the first founding of Hyrule since Hyrulean refers to all races of Hyrule, not just Hylians, and if they founded the Kingdom the first time why would it matter that Rauru took a Hyrulean woman as his bride. She's no more a Hyrulean woman than he's a Hyrulean man unless he's not really considered a Hyrulean by their margins. It also makes perfect sense why Rauru married Sonia other than love because if she is a descendant of SS Zelink, she's the one with the claim to the throne. Anyone who marries her would not only have the ability to become the new King of Hyrule in centuries but have their children be born with that divine blood. It also makes sense why Ganondorf targeted specifically her vs Rauru or Zelda because not only is he the reincarnation of Demise who just hates the blood of the goddess, Rauru's claim to Hyrule is weakened by her death their children would be next in line.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 The way Rauru believes he is the first King would imply that Sonia wasn't considered royalty since she would have been from a royal family. Sonia is a priestess and she likely came from those same tribal Hylians that now acts as guards. The symbols all over her are just tattoo's passed down to symbolize her ancestry but she probably has no clue what they mean and doesn't know she's part of Goddess Hylia's bloodline, much less that the Triforce exists.
@@nworder4life Well, she might've not grown up with the knowledge she was born with the blood of the goddess or with royal blood, but she could've found out later since she can sense blood connections and she does have time powers.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 Well she would likely think that the bloodline connection is a connection to the future meaning she would eventually have children. There's nothing that would indicate that her bloodline in the past was something special...but then again Zelda's family did know about Hylia's bloodline so maybe Zelda told Sonia that in the past and Sonia made sure to pass that information down to the present in some way, perhaps stone tablets.
Sonia was probably weaker because the understanding of the power of their bloodline might have been temporarily lost to time. You can't work with what you don't know or understand very much of.
And this is where their theory weakens. If the Triforce is passed down generation to generation and Sonia is the same line, then Sonia should have the Triforce as well. Or not if is instantly given to a child at birth so her child with Rauru, which must exist before she is killed, leaves a gap in the bloodline's ability to use it.
@@garrettgrooms2773 no Sonia isn't a zelda, zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess so only a zelda would have the triforce. not all the princesses are zeldas. therefore the time power is just something that runs though the family not just the zeldas but i think the triforce can be making it stronger for zelda
I like to think that while Old Hyrule completely collapsed after the timeline merging, on the different continent New Hyrule was just vibing and now there's just casually 2 places called Hyrule
There is a *very* easy way for Hyrule to have collapsed in the way you suggest. See, in Breath of the Wild, Zelda states that all daughters born into the Royal Family are named “Zelda” (likely after her). This has obviously also been the case since the Minish Cap, because the name Zelda has reappeared time and again. But what if there *were* no daughters of the Hyrulean Royal Family for several centuries? What if this caused the Hylians to believe the gods had abandoned them, slowly forgetting them until nothing remained of the “Legend of Zelda, Goddess of Time”? The name “Hylia” could easily be re-found from ancient shrines, those that were kept out in the open and able to be seen. Meanwhile, the Hyrulean Royal Family buried their dead in crypts, inaccessible to the public. The name of Zelda, the legends of the Master Sword, and even the first Kingdom of Hyrule, could all be forgotten. Hylia’s statues survived millennia between the attack of Demise, and the descension of Link to the Land of Hylia, which is why the Skyloftians believed that the Surface was either a barren wasteland, or nonexistent. But much of the buildings and icons that were made by the Hylians crumbled away after a few centuries. Hyrule’s Kingdom, Zelda, Link and even the Master Sword and the Triforce could be long forgotten until Zelda’s appearance in the Zonai Kingdom of Hyrule. The existence of Rauru having the same name as the Sage of Light? An intervention by Hylia, as a way to try and help her children remember their past.
Im gonna be honest, I really like this new generation of Zelda UA-camrs. You and Thinkingatmaxvolume are really professional and clear about the topics without milking for content. Big respect and looking forward to future uploads!
Ever since BOTW it felt like the game was set far, far, far, FAR in the future. The timescale of at least 10,000 years mentioned within that game alone and making mention of events and characters we never heard of before just means its waaaaay farther away from the other games than those games were from each other.
I have had the thought that this has to take place after any timeline merge as proposed by the "Dragonbreak" theory. The big thing is that the same director of SS is the same as BotW and TotK, he wouldn't want to be undoing a work in his own resume, especially since it was supposed to be the first Zelda game chronologically. While the games themselves are likely a soft reboot, I feel like Nintendo wouldn't completely erase what came before.
All three having the same director is the one thing that throws me for a loop, otherwise it looks like a heavy, heavy case of Nintendo wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Let's not forget that until they released their official timeline it was just fun fan speculation that there was any connection at all. It's one thing if you want to retcon a few elements from some games that came decades before to bring everything into a proper alignment, but now Nintendo has just straight up contradicted and changed their own "official" timeline in all sorts of ways when they're the ones that made it in the first place. Either there's a history to the world or not.
Makes sense to me. It's like Hyrule (the land, not the kingdom) went through its own dark ages, where much of their history was forgotten. They may have even forgot about Hylia since Sonia is referred to as "Hyrulean" instead of "Hylian" (although she apparently was a priestess before becoming queen? Interesting). Seems like the Zonai weren't able to fully get them out of their dark age (since they still look primitive at a point when there are only 2 Zonai left), but the Sheikah eventually were.
You guys are doing a great job. One thing about Zelda and Sonia's power difference - is it possible they were suggesting that Zelda possesses the Triforce? We did see the symbol apear on her hand at the end of Botw. Could be a subtle hint, but i like the zonai ascendency plan, demi gods sent to re-invigorate the royal bloodline is pretty metal
I'm pretty sure that scene was just meant to confirm what Sonia had already said on their first encounter: Zelda is descended from both Sonia and Rauru, so she inherited both their light and time powers.
@@wizcatcheslightning Agreed. On another note I would very much like to hear more discussion about the scene in the garden with the trio in the past... The way Sonia and Raura laugh and prod lovingly about link seems like nothing at first... But the more I see that scene, the more it seems like they know or assume something, that is not being talked about outright. Rauru's ears perk up when he hears links name for the first time, if they did indeed have a child b4 Sonia died, they could've unknowingly named their child link, but that's a huge jump, it could be anything, it could be nothing. That's why you're the expert lol.
The full Triforce crest also appears on Zelda's hand when she is healing the Master Sword in TotK. It is only just barely visible because of the enormous glare, but it can be made out clearly if you invert the colors in a screenshot of that scene. Incontrovertible evidence IMHO.
Gannon calls Sonia "Hyrulian" in a way that implies the Hyrulians are an ethnic group. However, they're ethnicity has always been called Hylian. The term "Hyrule" comes from the kingdom. The term Hyrulian and Hylian shouldn't become synonymous for an ethnicity until well after the kingdom has been established (we see this in real life). I may be over relying on English dialogue, but it suggest an older association for the name Hyrule.
Good point. As far as I know, Hylian/Hyrulean have always been interchangeable terms describing the people of Hyrule, but I think you make an important distinction! I will point out that there are humans in Zelda as well. By humans, I mean “people who aren’t of Hylian descent”. You can see them in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. They lack pointed ears.
In the Hyrule Warriors and Age of Calamity games, we see Hylian units take on the moniker of Hyruleans as well, which is not the case for Goron, Zora, Gerudo, Rito, or Skyloft Captains.
@@chocmilk We know that the Hyrulean Civil War that happens before OoT has battles between the Gerudo and Hylians. And the war ends with Ganondorf swearing fealty to the King of Hyrule and the land once again being under the banner of Hyrule.
I don't think he was implying an ethnic group. I think he was referring to those in the new kingdom of Hyrule. The Zora, Gorons, Rito, and Gerudo (later once they join the kingdom, but he was not referring to them here) are all Hyrulians -members of the kingdom of Hyrule, but not Hylians. Cancel Reply
I agree with this. Edit: I think Zelda is stronger than Sonia because she (unknowingly) has the full tri-force, and the fact that she isn't a princess named Zelda but the reincarnation of Hylia. Otherwise you adressed all the points I had. Anther piece of evidence against Totk being early in the time line is the utter lack of mention of the three Golden Goddesses - most egregiously in the three springs tied to their powers. The fact that the three dragons have very similar names suggests people knew about the three goddesses at some point, and lost that information to time. For example, I can see a primitive Hylian civilization assigning the three elemental dragons the identity of the founding goddesses of Hyrule.
This was the theory that I first came up with when looking into the lore of TotK and both of you guys in the two videos that you guys made together perfectly explain why I think this theory is correct. I can't wait to have a fun debate with my friends about this and tell them to watch the two videos you made together so they could understand everything once they're done with the game's story(or at least all the memories)
Great video. This is what ive been thinking this entire time. Honestly didnt understand why people didnt think this way. Also, i laughed out loud at the Groose part. Great stuff
Argh I was in the middle of writing a script for this exact topic, but you guys did an excellent job covering it! I’m so glad that people are question the placement of BOTW + Tears, because it seems like so many zeldatubers have just accepted the placement of the memories in the timeline and moved on when there’s still so much to consider. Since you guys covered the main argument against Tears being after Skyward Sword, I’ll give my two cents on the collapse of old Hyrule. I’m gonna get a little crazy, but based on the small amount of proof we have between the two games, I think that the Tears flashbacks actually take place after the original Calamity during the height of the Sheika tech boom. I think the timelines converged and they actually did so well that they had an era of prosperity leading to the invention of Sheika tech. At this time the original Zonai were still on the ground with the rest of the kingdom. The Sheika and Zonai work together to build the divine beasts and guardians to kill Calamity Ganon. The Zonai have a hero capable of wielding the Master Sword and the Hylians have a Princess with the blood of the goddess who work together and take down Calamity Ganon. After the battle, the Kingdom of Hyrule is afraid of the technological might of both races and orders them to decommission the technology. A lot of Sheika do (Aside from those that go on to form the Yiga), while the Zonai decide to leave the kingdom for the skies using the technology they developed. The Hylian Princess falls in love with the Hero or some other important Zonai figure and they leave the kingdom for the skies. The combo of the loss of Sheika tech, Zonai tech, the bloodline of Hylia, plus the possibility of a Sheika-Yiga civil war contributes to the collapse of Hyrule. Up in the sky, the Zonai start to thin out without Hylians to mix their bloodline with and eventually leave Rauru and Mineru as the last of their kind. They decide to descend and find a Hyrule that has regressed to the Bronze Age due to a collapse. Rauru and Mineru meet the priestess Sonia and eventually the rest is History. Overall I think this makes both storylines fit together nicer, and respects the overall history of the Zelda series better than a total reboot. Sorry this comment ended up being longer than it probably needs to be but hopefully someone finds this interesting at least. If anyone wants more specifics as to why I think events played out this way, then feel free to ask. I think this is already too long though lol
Hey well I think you should still write that script/make that video! The more info that is out there, the better! And yeah, I would be willing to hear more. What you said was interesting!
@@wizcatcheslightning Thanks a lot man, I guess I’ll keep at it. Alright you asked for it, so here’s my unhinged calamity headcanon proof. One of the reasons I believe that the Zonai exist around the original Calamity, is that Zonai hero spirit skin received for completing all of the shrines. It states it’s the spirit of a hero from long past, and looks very similar to the hero in the mural of the calamity found in Kakariko Village. A lot of people say that the hero looks different from Rauru and Mineru, and might not be a full blooded Zonai so it can’t be before they exist. However I really don’t think we know enough about their species to make visual comparisons. The Zora’s kings have always had different features from the rest of the race, and Links are typically small and unassuming compared to others so it’s not a good metric anyway. (Through both BOTW and Tears Link is made fun of for his height and physique all the time.) The species could have evolved after the Calamity as well, gaining more physical features than the hero had during his time. Plus Rauru and Mineru were supposed to be the last of the Zonai. It wouldn’t make sense for there to be more after them, hybrid or not. It also wouldn’t make sense for them to gift you a memory of a hero they would have no knowledge of. Rauru didn’t know what happened on the great sky island after his spirit was trapped, so why would he have knowledge of the great Calamity. Mineru was trapped in the Purah pad as well the whole time. (Perhaps she connected to the Sheika tower network, but it sounds like she was asleep the whole time. That also sounds like a major stretch imo.) If the ancient hero was indeed born after Rauru’s time, it would probably mean it was one of his descendants. That would also mean he was part of the royal family, even if he was some sort of hybrid because they valued the Zonai so much. If that’s the case, why is the princess in the mural Hylian??? The princess needs Rauru’s light powers to fight so she would need to be related to him as well, which begs the question why one child would be Hylian and while the other is a Zonai hybrid? Along with the fact that they usually like to make Link and Zelda romantic in the modern games, I don’t think they would want them to be related in any capacity. (Plus Link has always just been an average guy who rises to the occasion. Making his ancestry a big deal kinda goes against that. (I also know the bloodline of the knights of Hyrule thing from ALTTP, but that seems like something that got retconned along with the Master Sword origins due to Skyward Sword.) ) It’s shaky, but I’m going to assert that the ancient hero and the great calamity happened before the Bronze Age collapse. The Zonai hero existed before Rauru’s time and helped fight the calamity. The Sheika also built many shrines in Zonai ruins and had barbarian armor (Zonai made), which to me might show that there was a partnership there. If the ancient hero that helped in the calamity was indeed Zonai, then that would make them contemporaries. It would also mean the Zonai lived on the ground before Rauru came down and there was a time after that when they left again. A large amount of Zonai also means a lot of genetic diversity, which can help explain why the ancient hero doesn’t look like Rauru. Finally, I think it’s really weird Rauru is the one who has the light powers and not Sonia. Typically that belongs to the royal family of Hyrule, so why would the Zonai have that bloodline instead of a hylian family? If we assert that this is not a reboot of the timeline, then the royal family and the Zonai needed to marry at some point. I believe that the Princess and Zonai Hero are most likely to get together considering how many Link and Zeldas have shared romantic feelings before. (Heck just look at these games.) Now this is a really crackpot theory built on a lot of assumptions, but that’s what being a Zelda theorist is all about man. Hopefully this is coherent, I wrote this out on my phone and I only get to see five lines of text at a time.
@@mindophone makes sense for the most part! Where we differ I think is that I believe the ancient hero came after Sonia and Rauru (unless I read that incorrectly). Sonia and Rauru had an offscreen child, and the ancient mural still exists despite Zelda’s time travel. The divine beasts and Sheikah towers are in the ancient mural as well.
@@wizcatcheslightning Seems like you pretty much got it. Yeah I could easily see the ancient hero being Rauru and Sonia’s kid, and it will most likely be the case. After all, they need to have a child regardless since Zelda has to inherit her powers from somewhere. However it still is really wonky to me that the Zonai hybrid wouldn’t inherit the full extent of Rauru and Sonia’s powers, and a Hylian girl would. I think the one displaying the lineage of the Zonai mixed with Hylians would be more likely to have the light and time powers. Of course I’m trying to apply the rules of genetics to a magical world, so it could totally make sense in the minds of the developers. Honestly though, what we really need is a game set in that era. I’ve been asking for it since BOTW and I think it would clear up any questions we have. Hopefully at least the inevitable TOTK dlc will have a morsel of info to go off of.
@@mindophone so some really standout differences lead me to believe that the ancient hero is different from Rauru and Mineru. The ancient hero has four toes and like a heel spike of some sort? While Rauru/Mineru have five toes on each foot. The ancient hero also has a tail while Rauru/Mineru do not have tails (I looked at their 3D models to confirm this).
Thank you; I embrace the re-establishment theory as the Zelda series is so cyclic. I've said it before, but it's a private joke to me to imagine the three Golden Goddesses sitting around a table naming themes, placing bets, and then rolling the dice to see what happens THIS time a new Zelda is born, while Dorfy-boy and Link reincarnate. XD
@@wizcatcheslightning You are welcome. XD I honestly do not believe that where Zelda goes back in time to is just a few generations after Skyward Sword. That remains the beginning as far as I'm concerned. All the other games and their myths were stories lost to time (but still happened), Hyrule fell, and then the Zonai came, and they were already an old part of Hyrule culture by the time there were only two who still stuck around. I half-theorized that Zonai marrying Hyruleans became common practice as the numbers of the ones who stuck around, dwindled, because ALL the Hylians of Rauru's era have enormous ears, even if most other Zonai features disappeared after a few generations. Rauru and his sister were different as they were the last to stick around and were the keepers of the Secret Stones. Sonia probably never even knew she had light power to tap into, but had practice with her time power so her stone reflected that. More importantly, the Triforce symbol WAS known to that era, but what it meant seemed to have been lost, even then. It was painted right on Sonia's body! You can see in the flashes of Zelda, holding a broken Master Sword, the Triforce symbol on her hand funneling sacred power into the Master Sword as it was repaired over time....because that was Zelda's wish and that was her other powers! ...okay I haven't fully thought it out yet, but it's interesting to ponder. Either way, I really do enjoy the joke that the Golden Goddesses place bets and roll dice. Wasn't it a "joke of the gods" to give Dorfy-boy the Triforce of Power? The "new" Ganondorf doesn't even know what it is; and he certainly doesn't have it!
@@ZeoViolet all excellent points here and definitely thoughts that I have considered as well 🤗 You may like my previously posted videos (check the vids with the thumbnails “the god tribe” and “the Triforce” as well as “the Zelda pantheon”) after having read this response! I feel like I touch on these subjects in those videos.
@@wizcatcheslightning I remember seeing part of the "God tribe" one, although I would be interested in seeing your thoughts since then, since that came out a few weeks before TotK, and if it changed your view points any. Now that I think about it, I meant to get back to that video after work, and uh...I forgot. XD I'll subscribe to your channel!
@@ZeoViolet right on! I do plan on talking about that subject more! I just need to do more research. I think writing the scripts for these videos is probably one of the tougher challenges of the job 😅
Nintendo already said that BotW takes place so far down the line that they previous timelines are irrelevant relegated to legends. That's a full confirmation that Rauru's kingdom is neither the first nor is it by any means important to any of the three timelines as we know them. And I do think this is a sort of soft reboot of LoZ. BotW started from basically scratch while the events of TotK was a more complicated OoT retelling.
I think the real secret hidden in plain sight is that every mainline game (except ones that are direct sequels to previous games) is a retelling of the SAME story. It’s the LEGEND of Zelda after all! And those who’ve studied mythology, literature, and folklore know that the same stories get told and retold time and time again, but also constantly change, different aspects being added or removed, influenced by the unique influences of the storyteller, their culture, their audience, their history, and many other factors! That’s why every game has so many of the same main elements, while the small details around the periphery constantly change.
@@MerkhVisionBut you also can’t deny that Wind Waker, for example, clearly comes after OoT. The missing hero is directly linked (ha) to the ending of Ocarina and Ganondorf is both older and directly calls back to his Ocarina days in his dialogue. I feel like the whole mythology thing is a bit of a copout that became relevant only recently because every game muddied the details more
The only thing that bothers me is why the Great Plateau bears such an uncanny resemblance to Castle Town and Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time. Nintendo may have retconned it to just being an easter egg, but I can’t help but wonder if theres something more going on
We do know that the Forgotten Temple lays in what's referred to as the Valley of the Royal Family. Maybe as more of the Temple was excavated by TOTK's ancient explorers, some of Old Hyrule's original history was discovered. It being referred to as the "Forgotten Temple" is in itself an oddity. We know that Hyrule used to flood constantly, so maybe the lower levels had been buried because of landslides. Zora's Domain Cave beneath the current Zora's Domain definitely feels like a call back to OoT's Domain. I believe that when the Water Temple had been built, the descending water generated by the Temple had eroded away part of the mountain range that surrounded the spring. This erosion would end up displacing earth and would be responsible for the creation of Reservoir Lake. This would also go on to explain the new climate and phenomenon of periodic floods. Given a lack of flooding before this, perhaps no danger had presented itself to the Forgotten Temple beforehand. This would be why the OG Royal Family didn't bother to build it higher off the ground.
@bagofshhh Part of the notion that the Great Plateau is where Castle Town was is because the sky Island descending from Skyloft could explain why it's raised up so high. The Sealed Temple, having been rebuilt as OoT's Temple of Time, was a novel idea that went along with this. Each temple had Hylia's sage crests and a chamber to the rear that held the Master Sword. Now that we know that the Zonai could raise and lower islands themselves, the island isn't really evidence of being OoT's Castle Town. The Temple of Time that sits on the Great Plateau also lacks a rear chamber, making it much more likely that this was the original site for Rauru and Sonia's ruling seat. King Daphnes mentions thar its the site of Hyrule's birth. The ruling seat being built where they proclaimed the joining of their peoples makes much more sense.
@@josephasbury4492 King Daphnes refers to at as the birthplace of Hyrule, because that’s what it is. It is the exact location where the the three goddesses left Hyrule upon creating it. Which was the temple of time from OOT, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess. The castle was nearly destroyed after the waters and the Tower of the Gods came crashing down at the end of Wind Waker. As seen in Twilight Princess, it was both elevated, and nearly completely destroyed. It has clearly been rebuilt and used as a ceremonial center at some point, because King Daphnes also referred to it as such.
@bagofshhh There's nothing stating that the Temple of Time is the same spot where the Goddesses left, nor is it stated for Hylia's Temple. Ocarina's Temple of Time being built marked the birth of Old Hyrule; the Zonai Temple of Time seen in TOTK is similar in name only, just like there was an abandoned temple called the Temple of Time in Lanayru. We know that the Zonai Temple of Time laid on the western edge of the plateau, around the area where the Old Man's cabin is. Given that this can't be the location of BOTW's Temple, that really only leaves the area leading to the north of where Rauru launched his counterattack on the Molduga. Seeing as the area to the north of the Awakening cave is still forested, where the temple sits wouldve been the natural site of Rauru's castle. After Ganondorf's sealing, BOTW's castle would be built to strengthen the seal and become the new ruling seat. This would fulfill the line about it being the birthplace of Hyrule (as this would be where Rauru and Sonia would have originally ruled the kingdom) and a place for ceremony (a new Temple of Time being built over the site of Rauru's castle to replace the Zonai temple).
the fact the Zonai and hylians worship Hylia, the fact the master sword is able to slay ganondorf, and the Rito existing all pointed to Raurus kingdom being established long after all the other games when I played through it. from an employee and in game developer perspective, people who don't play the game don't interact to much with fans or their theories, I always assumed internally the first Hyrule Warriors was taken into account when planing Botw and, again from the perspective that Nintendo employees aren't looking to hard into it, have just operated on the idea that hyrule warriors was the point where the timeliness merged and just worked from there.
I believe that Rauru’s Hyrule is the third incarnation of the Kingdom of Hyrule. The first was founded after SS before TMC, the second incarnation was founded by Tetra and Link in WW/PT and after that the timelines merged with Hyrule Warriors and the War of Eras, sometimes after but before Rauru’s time, the kingdom fell again and wasn’t founded again until Rauru
I always felt that BOTW and TOTK took play WAYYYYY far in the future from the rest of the series (which was why everything from the past was almost myth), and that Rauru established a new kingdom after the fall of civilization in the land. It seems like the Zonai are some sort of extra-terrestrial beings that came upon the lands after they’d fallen into nothingness. But clearly there was some type of history of Hyrule before Rauru became the king, because there are various tribes of peoples with established cultures and feelings towards one another.
I played every console Zelda, huge Zelda fan, but I notice there are 2 types of extreme fans, those who care about the timeline and those who don’t, timeline doesn’t matter to me as I treat every Zelda like a new story all of its own, only Zelda 1&2 are directly linked, and OOT and Majora’s mask are directly linked, including Botw and TOTK, everything else is a story in its own… I like seeing the story linkage theories but other than that they are just entertainment to me
Awesome videos Wiz! I love this theory. Even if I personally fall into the "It's all legend" camp, the "merger theory" is cool, too, and one of the few that actually makes sense to me. Most of this stuff hadn't even occurred to me, so great job, both of you!
@@wizcatcheslightning It's even cooler cuz I clicked on TaMV's video first, without realizing you were even on it! Showed up in my recommended, so, algorithm's working I guess! haha
The quoted Source inspiration for breath of the Wild is Skyrim. A dragon break is 99% likely to have some effect on the thought process. Fairy are giving clear indications that there's biological evolution, attempting to rule out a post Skyward Sword explanation. Tears of the Kingdom reveals that all of the games had happened within that 10,000 year period of time and that it is the Legend of Zelda. They are going hard on the word Legend. Meaning all of the other games are interpretation of events. So instead of a dragon break, they have a legend. The way the King Arthur story has been changed is also part of the franchise inspiration and in the Japanese attempt at continuity they are going back to that root. The proof is in all the green glowing stomes. They cant not keep the color the same and change its function. Even between breath of the wild and tears of the Kingdom.. they added another material simply because they wanted to change the color around and needed an excuse. Prove me wrong
I like the theory that Rauru was sent to help strengthen the royal line, his sealing power in Zelda combining with Sonia time power. Your speculations lead me to believe that rauru and Sonia founded breath of the wild hyrule kingdom and his history has almost faded out over 10,000 years, I like to believe that all the Zelda game lore history are absolute and canon too.
I have a nitpick, and it's not about the theory itself. It's about how you describe the 'Simple' Hylians. Whilst they do seem to be technologically simple sure, the fact they have symbolic tattooing and Mesoamerican motifs is NOT an indicator of simplicity. So using Aztec to emphasize simplicity is simply inaccurate considering the advanced culture they had. Also the ancient Hylians look Hellenistic with their togas but with the Aztec influence from cultural exchange with the Zonai, who are the advanced ones in this context. Beyond that's it's a great video, and I will always look forward to more
it does have the loftwing statues and while hard to say how "canon" it is the goddess statue here gives you the goddess sword in totk so not necessarily
re: power level difference Sonia says in a memory cutscene that Zelda has Light AND Time powers, so it might not be that Zelda is just more powerful, it's that she has twice the amount (type) of power Sonia has. But also; Zelda is the Sage of Time. It's not clear from the memory cutscenes exactly when she awoke as the Sage of Time, but right before Sonia's death, we see Zelda pretty easily manipulating time by rewinding the dagger back at the impostor-Zelda, and during the Imprisoning War she does it again when she rewinds all the other Sages' weapons back at Ganondorf (she's only shown struggling in this scene because it's at the end of a long battle against the Demon King; everyone else is exhausted, too, even Rauru) Also there's that issue of us "not seeing" the Triforce in either BotW or TotK. Except...we DO see it. Zelda in both games is in possession of the full Triforce. BotW when she seals Calamity Ganon for the first time and then again when she destroys Calamity Ganon at the end of the game, and in TotK when she's shown healing the Master Sword; in all those scenes the full Triforce is shown on the back of her hand. So the fact that Zelda is in possession of the full Triforce + has both Light and Time powers + is the Sage of Time = she is UBER powerful even before [spoiler] happens
I'd also add the fact that placing TotK's past after SS would raise the question why the king in OoT would trust another Ganondorf, if they had a landscape altering (literally) Imprisoning War just a couple centuries earlier, with just such an individual, down to the same name? If records of this survived tens of millenia into the future and the royal family is in the know in general, I am sure a couple centuries after the Imprisoning War the king would very much know of these events. It'd also beg the question what the deal is with Hyrule Castle; it was supposedly built to act as a safe guard for the seal, yet it was destroyed absolutely in OoT and later in TP (and if the kingdom crumbled in the Downfall Timeline, there was no castle at all). Some may say it's a 2nd castle somewhere else, but... why? Why would the Hylians build two castles? Makes no sense to me. It only makes sense if all this happens long after any/all of the games of any/all timelines and a new castle is errected on the seal and stood until TotK's present. It may not be as technical as you guys laid out your arguments, but I'd say those are smaller issues that you could put on top. All in all, I am very much in agreement with both yours and Thinking's videos.
@@wizcatcheslightning Thank you for the kind words. I usually don't like when people (myself included) make several comments under one video instead of accumulating everything in one comment, but I felt compelled to write down what I did after finishing the video. Hope for more enlightening theories on the matter (if there is more to talk about)!
Speaking of Zelda being more Powerful then Sonia, if we take a look at King Rhoam's abilities in Age of Calamity, he seems to use a similar power in his attacks.
As far as timeline placement, Aonuma confirmed BotW takes place so far in the future that previous games are irrelevant, so I'm inclined to believe the simplest explanation: TotK simply takes place at the founding of a new Hyrule sometime after the downfall of the classic one but before BotW. Sonia directly says she senses Rauru's light power and her time power within Zelda, so I think she was more powerful than Sonia simply because she was descended from both of them. But this does leave the major question of lineages unanswered. How could the tradition of naming matriarchs Zelda skip Sonia if she's the ancester of BotW Zelda? And if the Zonai were sky people living completely seperate of the Hylians, how did one of them inherit the name Rauru and become a new sage of light? Were they somehow influenced by Hylian history and don't even know it? How did the name for King Rhoam reenter the lineage?
It’s most likely me just forgetting but was there ever any confirmation that in the botw universe, the queens and princesses of Hyrule would be named Zelda? Cause as far as I’m concerned, we’re carrying over old knowledge assuming that this is still the case.
It'd be one thing if events worked out so Zelda time traveled to meet her ancestors, and then inspired the name of their new child before returning back home. Still get the maternal figure, power training and such. Except major plot reasons cause that to not happen. Literally impossible. Whether or not Zelda's plotline is something you'd want to honor in a way that would relock in the royal princess Zelda name roll call law.
Hey Wiz~ I'm still not fully convinced about a refounding, but I've been opening up to the idea. That said, I have one point to make about the “new” Hyrule Kingdom in Spirit Tracks. This quote comes from Anjean; I have the Japanese kana, a translation, and the English localization. Kana: うむ おぬしじゃよゼルダ姫おぬしら一族の故郷 はるか遠い地の古き王国ハイラル…その王家に代々受け継がれし聖なる力… Translation: “Indeed, it’s you, Princess Zelda. Your family line’s native land is the ancient and far away Kingdom of Hyrule… A sacred power has been inherited by its royal family for generations…” Localization: “A vessel from the royal line of ancient Hyrule, with sacred power coursing through its veins.”
Hm, interesting. I think you both are right about timeline placement and I agree with a lot of the conclusions and evidence, though not all of your points fit together: •You pointed out that the Hylian’s devolved to a tribal civilization, which would be impossible….except even with taking away the TotK past, the Hylian society still fall into a reverse with no sign of the high technology by the time of even Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and definitely not in the Fallen Timeline. The best in technology we get after Skyward Sword are in Termina and New Hyrule. Point being, considering how often the Hylians regress after a disaster (see the Fallen Timeline), it is not impossible for the Hylians to regress so far into tribal society only to pick themselves back up with new leadership. In fact, Tears of the Kingdom tells this exact tale. •The Forgotten Temple is insinuated to be the Temple of Hylia in Skyward Sword. That puts the original Temple of Time way, way out there into the Tanagar Canyon. That is very far removed from geographically and if we are gonna use architectural geographical evidence, such as the Sacred Grove’s Temple of Time being a reason why OoT’s Temple of Time no longer exists, then no sign of the Forgotten Temple should exist either being long buried under the ground. Right? Unless I simply misunderstand how ancient structures survive through time, which is entirely possible. •The second Temple of Time in BotW may not have evidence of a connecting room, but it is a man-made structure. Refurbishment can easily patch up evidence of an extra room ever being in there in the thousands of years the Temple has stood. I think a better piece of evidence is the Temple’s decline in Twilight Princess on top of it being completely missing in the other two timelines, likely because of the Flood and the original Imprisoning War/sealing of Ganon making it’s destruction imminent. •This last one is actually a supporting point. Rauru has also been characterized similarly to a young man moreso than a wise king based on texts clarifying him to abandoning his duties in favor going hunting, with Sonia being the one to make sure to get him back and being the one partnering with him in creating the new Shrines. This presumes Rauru to be a very unreliable source of information in regards to how things work in the world of Hyrule, supported by the fact that Mineru is who he defers to for knowledge about his own people.
Crazy Idea; TOTK takes place before Demise and the only male of the Geurdo become connected. Ganondorf of OOT is named after Ganondorf of TOTK. Tears-Ganondorf is remembered as a "glourious" leader who was defeated in battle by the Sages. Then, OOT-Ganondorf is born much much later and he has the triforce of power; but the guy he was named after never had access to the triforce of power.
there is a huge problem is that there are two master swords: - one from the future which Rauru learns about (he doesnt know that the sword already existed during his times) -the "original" master sword which was lost over time but this one has to be found again to later become the one used in BotW
@@hokton8555 There's only one Master Sword, even in the events on both BoW and TotK, is the same sword just existing twice in the same space-time continium. It doesn't matter if they are 2 swords at the same time, the sword has its own timelime. its own past. From the Master Sword perspective comes from the Timeline Merge existed for thounsands of years, got in to our new link hands, got destroyed by Mummie Ganondorf, when back in time to ended up in link's hands again. Is the same thing with this Zelda.
@@tandord491 you got me wrong Im not talking about this Im talking about that the master sword was lost & forgotten. rauru didn't know about it. So how was this recovered?
@@hokton8555 Oh got ya!!!, well you are right!! I guess the sword eventually reaches the spirit of the hero, One way of other it doesn't need the intervention of the royal family. Considering that in this new timeline people doesn't even speak of the Triforce, some key elements were lost in time. Like... Ganondorf is not looking for the Triforce, he was looking for the power of the secret stones and is a time lapse of 10 000 years nobody is looking or even mentioning the Triforce.
This was exactly what I thought was happening. Nintendo stated awhile back that BOTW takes place so far in the future, that the previous games don't really affect it that much. So what is stated in this video makes the most sense, thank you for finally saying it.
A little late to the party on this one but its also worth thinking about the fact that the Secret Stones specifically amplify the inherent power of the user. In this instance, Ganondorf amplified the latent power inside of himself which manifested in him becoming The Demon King. Which makes sense if you consider that Ganondorf is the fulfillment of the Curse of Demise placed on the blood of the Hero and the reincarnation of Hylia. It makes total sense that his power comes from a small amount of Demise' power inside of him which, when amplified with a Secret Stone would result in, well, The Demon King, or at least an approximation of him, which I think is a fair way to describe Demon King Ganondorf. All of which only works if this all happened after Skyward Sword. The *only* fair alternative i can think of would be that maybe the realm we fought Demise in exists outside of time so the effects of the curse extend in every direction through time in a 4D way, but thats a bit much to think about right now.
I’m not sure if everyone realizes Zelda is using the light stone not the time stone gannondorf has the time stone Zelda’s time powers are her own, and the light stone is amplifying them. The reason she appears stronger is because she is, she has both powers, whereas, Sonia and Rauru have only one.
While I want to agree with what you’re saying, I’m going to refer back to Mineru when she says that a secret stone brings out an individual’s essence and it doesn’t grant specific powers. Secret stones are neutral. When Ganondorf killed Sonia, he didn’t get Sonia’s time magic from her secret stone. Instead the stone changes its kanji, and it brings out his essence, which in the case of this game, is darkness.
@@wizcatcheslightning They also specify in the dialogue that although zelda has both light and time powers within her, the stone is enhancing her time powers, which allowed her to travel through time the way she did.
Also, while it is not address by the games, Zelda should have the triforce if we are to trust the stigma on the back of her hand when she does magic. If this theory is true, the stone may help zelda to use the triforce.
One theory of mine is that the Secret Stones are fragments of the Triforce and they came to be as a result of the Triforce breaking for good from merging the three timelines into one.
Probably the Tri-Force of power to prevent Ganondorf from gaining power. Since the one of wisdom is still in the Zelda bloodline, and the courage is unknown.
I keep bringing this up on different vids but, one of the things that sticks out to me in the game itself as evidence are the worn-down sage statues that surround the lotus where the Secret Stones are kept. They resemble the ones found around the Master Sword, and also vaguely resemble the silhouettes of the Ocarina of Time sages. Whoever made those knew of that history, and therefore it places OoT in the past of TotK's past (the statues are already there in the flashback to the TotK Sages receiving their stones).
It's probably some universe/link-between-worlds/time-travel mechanism that allowed the timelines to communicate with eachother in some form. Once that occurred, whomever obtained the complete triforce through all of chaos between timelines wished for all timelines to merge and the civilization to start anew albeit not perfectly which is why we have aspects from all timelines in the newer games(buildings, geographic locations, ect) but the citizens start anew in this constructed world(which are all just variations of itself because the land of hyrule is the same in all timelines). The Master Sword can only be present in one instance at any given time though, and the hero is necessary to utilize such sword,(otherwise another type of sword is probably made for a hero) so it probably has some time/timeline/universe travel aspect going on. Be noted, there can be multiple triforces in existence - this is proven in A Link Between Worlds so this is very possible. Additionally, I think hylia(Zelda) would be exempt from this clearly with the spirit of the hero, and Demise's malice incarnation as well and would survive such a merger and not be hindered by such limitations. Hyrule would be "founded"(again) for as many times as necessary considering the circumstances in such a land. A simple example of this is placement of the "Kingdom of Hyrule" from Minish Cap. This entire "Kingdom" can be found on a small section in the northeast part of the BOTW/TOTK hyrule map. You can map the entire game's(minish cap) geography there, and it is a tiny area(but it fits perfectly in line with minish caps map). Also consider that Minish Cap is one of the EARLIEST kingdoms of Hyrule and there is little to no evidence of such a castle of town existing by this point in said area in BOTW/TOTK, maybe due to geological activity in the area considering it's right next to death mountain and various types of land, BUT IT IS THERE and matches up perfectly with said game. Additionally, I think you're correct regarding speculation of Zonai Rauru "founding" a Kingdom of Hyrule, yes, a singular one, one of many that have been "founded" and "established" over the ages within timelines and time-frames. Here's ny TOTK map, with Minish Cap locations marked. Im sure you get the idea here. Markings may not be 100% accurate, as geography is now 10000+ years old. Imgur here: imgur.com/a/YJSNiS2
Hyrule being destroyed is canon, in wind waker a wish is made using the triforce by the king for that to happen. The hyrule founded after that in spirit tracks is actually called new hyrule not hyrule. Hyrule might be adjacent to it under the ocean still, the deku tree and koroks are actively trying to drain the sea in wind waker so I think the current hyrule is founded after the koroks finish their mission.
That isn't the mission of the Koroks, they simply are trying to connect the islands through planting trees to grow into a forest. We don't know if this is meant to be by draining the waters somehow (as you are assuming) or if the nature of the trees is such that they can expand the land they are planted on. If it is meant to drain the waters, then it isn't so much as connecting the islands as it is bringing back old Hyrule (and this flies in the face of the theme of WW's story).
@@philosophicaljay3449 the koroks connected the islands and is the result is current botw/totk hyrule. the depths is where og hyrule is, its why we see poes, oot soldier ghosts and all the og link outfits down there
It does make more sense that this is not THE Hyrule, but A NEW Hyurle. We've already seen Hyrule fall apart before in older games like Wind Waker, and we have seen implications that there are other lands outside of Hyrule. So it only makes sense that Hyrule fell once again and BotW and TotK are about the new hyrule
Oh yes, I can very much relate to that. I've played TLoZ ever since ALttP (mainly watched my bro play, but still) released when I was a wee lad and really got into it when I was 7 when OoT released.
Very interesting take on all of this, love the detailed timeline graphics and explanations of differences between the timelines and why things land where.
@@wizcatcheslightning I did, both are so well thought out and presented. Looking forward to more from both of you. The Christopher Columbus reference was great in this series of videos, that and the evolution of Gerudo ears.
I still don't understand were the Zoni came from if the Skyward Sword hylians never meet them in the Sky. I thought maybe the Zoni were the ancient skyloftians evolved in to goat wizards with magic stones. 😅 Also it seems Zelda possess all 3 triforce peices in botw when she uses them to finish Ganon off. That's why no one can poses them. There in Zelda.
I mean, the Skyloftians also never met the Oocca that occupied the sky and are said to have helped create Hyrule, so I don't see why it is an issue that the Zonai also were in the sky (in fact, I think it is reasonable to connect the Oocca to the Zonai in some way).
The key to understanding where Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are on the timeline is the Master Sword. Not only does Zelda acknowledge the sword as "her" as in Fi being the Master Sword, but the fact that Zelda and the Master Sword travelled back in time for over at least 10 000 years makes it impossible for her to have travelled to any point before the era of Hylia Zelda in Skyward Sword. Because if she did, she would have been present as the Light Dragon in every single Zelda game. With the Master Sword. The serious implications of this would be that there are now two Master Swords present in every game, which would complicate the story of those games even further and the entire timeline. It also doesn't make sense for Rauru from TotK to have been the original founder of the very first Hyrule when we know for a fact that Skyward Sword is the first The Legend of Zelda game on the timeline with the first Zelda. The one Zelda mind you who acknowledges herself as being the literal goddess Hylia and not just having the blood of Hylia like her descendants. Hylia is the original mother of the Zelda bloodline (an established fact), so Sonia can only be a part of that long chain if her claims to have blood relations with Zelda are correct. Hylia in the story of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom is a separate entity from both Sonia and Zelda, but Zelda is the only one who has Hylia's power of Light while Sonia has only the power of Time. That would also explain why Sonia is not called Zelda, because she doesn't possess the power to seal the darkness, but her power of Time at least would explain why Zelda possesses it too by being blood related. The bigger question that should be asked is not where these games are placed on the timeline (they can only be placed dead last to be able to make sense with all the references to previous games and different timelines), but why Rauru specifically has the power of Light and not Sonia? He and his people are clearly not from this world by having literally descended from the sky to bestow their powers and wisdom to the people of Hyrule. My only explanation for this peculiarity is that the Zonai originate from the same land that the old gods come from. It would at least explain why Rauru is able to wield the power to seal the darkness that Hylia's bloodline possess. Also notice the strange lack of the Triforce in Sonia's and Rauru's era. The Triforce was the most well known and sought after artifact during the time of Skyward Sword with the entire prologue being centred around Demise and the Demons trying to conquer the surface world to obtain this power. If this was before Skyward Sword, then the Triforce would have been very much relevant for Ganondorf/Ganon to obtain during Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Not to mention that Ganondorf/Ganon is a direct result of the Curse of Demise, so having Ganondorf/Ganon come before Demise is just beyond silly. Finally, it would be very odd for Nintendo to retcon the game that they themselves pushed as being the first game in the timeline when making the next two games that were likely made by the same people. It just doesn't add up however way you slice it.
@deldante That's the thing, she wasn't up there. All of the dragons come from underground. In Breath of the Wild they created portals to get down into the underground and in Tears of the Kingdom you can actually see them in the Depths when they aren't on the surface. In the very first scene when the Light Dragon appears it breaks the clouds from below, meaning that Zelda was in the Depths for thousands of years until it was time for her to deliver the Master Sword to Link. No, it isn't possible. Impossible even. Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time is the first Ganondorf on the timeline. Tears of the Kingdom Ganondorf just does not fit within the timeline of the older games. He can't exist before Skyward Sword as previously pointed out about Demise and he can't exist within the time of the other games, since the Ganondorf in those games is Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time with Ganon being either that version transformed or a resurrected clone. This Ganondorf is a brand new reincarnation with no established connections to the previous Ganondorf appearances. Trying to force a puzzle piece where it doesn't belong just leads to more complications with discussing the timeline.
The main reason I think TOTK's memories can't take place before OoT is, that would mean that Dehydrated Ganondorf would exist in all 3 timelines, and he doesn't. I've seen two theories that make sense. First is this one (the memories take place in a new Hyrule that Rauru founded after the old Hyrule fell). The other is creative and states that Zelda going back in time changed history and that's what truly created the Downfall Timeline (meaning Dehydrated Ganondorf only exists in that timeline). I don't know which I prefer yet. But BOTW/TOTK are DEFINITELY either in a merged timeline, or the Downfall timeline.
not quite on topic, but _Skyward Sword,_ in addition to being about Link searching for Zelda, forging the Master Sword, and defeating Demise, should’ve also been about Link and Zelda uniting the various peoples of the land and sky and founding Hyrule. also, Links role in the story should’ve been 100% his choice, and not something he was destined or chosen to do by someone else…Hylia and Demise would’ve been locked in an endless stale mate of good vs evil, but Link chose to intervene and tip the scales towards good, with this paradigm rhyming and resonating through the ages and subsequent games.
Has @16:42 been physically mapped? That small lake and a tree in the middle, and whatever that structure is to the left. You know, with the whole Rauru's Kingdom being on the Great Plateau. Not sure the ruins of the Temple of Time match that of Rauru's Temple.. And no one considers how the Great Sky island aren't directly on top of the Plateau. It's more likely that Hylians built it (ANOTHER Temple) during the many years after the Zonai disappeared. Doesn't it have similar architecture to that of Hyrule Castle? Considering @19:24 the architecture is much too similar to that of Shrines and nothing like current construction. (Looking at that glass window @19:35 in more detail would also be interesting.. seeing as how there are 3 squares (Secret Stones)? That are definitely not Triangles) Aaaanyway, and something I consider even more intriguing.. Where the hell did the Master Sword came from!? Fi is definitely in it! Did Hylia definitely make it and Skyward definitely happened? Because the omission of this monumental detail would explain a LOT of things! But it's more likely that Nintendo simply HAD to have it in the game.
Im so happy that I found this channel! I do love TOTK story and the story and characters themselves are amazing. Problem is that the way they delievered the story and how they didnt explain much is what creates the problem in TOTK. For example: Why would Rauru make a truce with Ganondorf in the first place. Would it war be of a better option? The game quite frankly gives us hints. Rauru is hubiris in nature and he would avoid any conflict at all cost, because 1. Ganon has a political power, and there are people whom side with him like some of the Geurodo and maybe even Hylians. Because remember, most Tribes before the Zonai begets their blessing to them only fought for courage and power. They werent at peace and benefited greatly to kill one another. The Zonai came in with heir knowledge to unite some of these tribes and make them one, as well as to get them out of this primitive state they had. It is why Ganondorf have such a malice intention against the Kingdom, because he benefited from all these wars. And 2. The game does have a very poor cohesiveness interms of time, because at minimum, Zelda lived within the past for at least 2 to 5 years. And even more. The reason I think that because there is in no way shape or form, that Ganondorf did all his truce with Rauru in about a day, nor the war between Ganon and Rauru lasted for like an hour. The story shouldve instead shown WHY Rauru made the truce with Ganondorf, and why it was the better solution because it will create major disturbance within the Kingdom itself. Not all tribes obey him afterall. Not to mention that there are two types of Geurodos. Like the Sage Geurodo and those whom followed her, and the Geurodo whom followed at the footsteps of Ganondorf. But the game only shows the aftermath or scenes that are great and amazingly well done, like Sonia and Zelda, but it isnt enough, we need more of it. Two examples is, again, Ganon betraying the young Kingdom and assasinating the Queen of Hyrule, Sonia. They only show the aftermath of Rauru's decision, which is a bad thing. The game shouldve shown us the benefits of why Rauru done that, even having a time skip between the swearing fealty and the assasination cutscene to also give us a meaningful time frame and a meaningful reason. You cant just go directly killing someone after making a truce. There must be a time frame between the events. Not to mention that Rauru saying the line of "it would be easier to keep an eye on him" inplies that Ganondorf does indeed have a lot of upper uand in political power, but once he accepts the truce Rauru granted to him, he cannot just break it and let all the tribes know how awful he is. Rauru made a good decision, but the game demonstrated poorly to the point that it paints Rauru as a bad leader. Again, dont show us the aftermath, but show us the inbetween and why Rauru made this decision. The timeframe between the memories are disjointed and give us no information of the benefits of the decisions Rauru made. The second example is Queen Sonia of Hyrule and Zelda speaking and talking to eachother. It is probably the best cutscene and honestly, Queen Sonia is my favourite character of all time now. She is an amazing character... and the reason why is because she showed her character to Zelda. In the cutscene where they are drinking tea, she was caring like the mother she never had. She deeply cared for Zelda and wanted her the best. She felt as if it was her daughter, which makes it all the more wholesome. It showed her dynamic between Rauru and Zelda so beautifully, but alas, the problem is that we do not see more. We need more characterization of these characters. We need more time to spent with them to feel for them. And to feel what Zelda feels. We. Need. More. Story. You see the problem? Botw's method of storytelling worked, because you also had enviromental storytelling as well as the memories being very simple and not intricate, which also gives a cohesive timeframe. Tears of the Kingdoms story however is more complex and intricate, and the environmental storytelling is very little compared to Botw. But the biggest issue is that Botw method of storytelling interms of memories DOES NOT work in TOTK. The story has more stakes, more intricacy and needs more time to flesh out and establishing a time frame. And again, decisions that shouldve been elaborated further to justify them and see their benefit are left out in the air, like Rauru's truce. I forgot to also say that we need to see more of Rauru's hubiris nature, because again, the story itself is good but what they showed is not enough. You cannot leave the story with no information and only giving scarce hints. You need to flesh it out. Botw method doesnt work, but if you want to do this type of storytelling, you have to approach from a Dark Soul/Elden Ring type of storytelling, which is making a world that is filled with item descriptions, environmental storytelling and indirect means. Which Elden Ring maatered it to the point that I call it a love letter game for Literature. At last, thanks for reading my stupid essay. I loved the story of TOTK but the worldbuiling is very flawed as well as the way they delivered the story. Such a missed potential to make these characters interact with Link, like making Queen Sonia of Hyrule talking to us on the surface, Mineru in the Depth and Rauru in the Skies. These characters are amazing and Nintendo need to put more effort into their stories. We just need more.
Thanks for watching as well as taking the time to write this! Loved reading what you had to say, and I completely agree with your outlook on the story.
@@wizcatcheslightning Thanks man! I actually never thought that you would read and respond to me! Thanks so much! This means a lot to me! I do have plenty to say about the story, but I think I will leave it here for now. I do plan on making a channel to make lore videos and taking a more of a literary look unto TOTK and the Zelda series as a whole as well as providing criticism and such. I still don have a good mic and Im mostly now done with the script of me critiquinf Tears of The Kingdom. After I finish that, again, I will be going into lore stuff. But thanks so much! This means a lot to me! Edit: I really cant wait more videos from you. I totally agree with you and the convergence theory. Your videos are entertaining because they are quite cohesive and explain things straight and simple. I really cant wait for more!
@@AndrewThePoet you bet 😎 If you have questions about your channel, don’t hesitate to reach out. Audio quality is definitely important (look at my older stuff) 😉
@@wizcatcheslightning Alrighty! My sincerest thanks! It is my first time going to do this! Im a bit nervous but I cannot wait. Though, Im at my holiday right now and I dont have my computer at the moment. My holiday will be done at around 20 ort 21st of August. But I will have quite a lot of questions about editing because Im very inexperienced. But thanks so much! I would love to also discuss some lore stuff with you too! If you have a discord server, I may join it as well!
I'm more of a casual Zelda fan. I played the first Zelda on the NES and the one on the Super NES when I was a kid but I haven't played any of the other games until BotW. I just finished TotK, and I feel like I missed so much lore. This video was amazing. It is fun and well put together. Thank you guys. I have subscribed and look forward to more videos from you both.
I honestly thought this version of it was the absolutely right answer implied by the story as it was given to us. There were even hints that history is difficult to get right even with direct connections to the past as the Rito, Zora, Goron and Gerudo have no clue about their ancestral temples or their founding mission thousands of years later. Then there is the Shieka tech fiasco of suddenly going from sci-fi levels of tech to high fantasy
I'm damn near 50... been exploring the lands of hyrule for longer than alot of folks watching this video have been alive... personally, i don't really care if botw and tears are rebooting the time line... it was a damn mess anyway... besides, these are all just legend, a myth... like religion there's a ton that doesn't add up, but that's ok, it doesnt need to. Just one old man's opinion.
We can clearly see Zonai technology and references in Skyward sword... But Ganondorf NEVER existed before Demise swore vengeance on Link. That's the paradox I need an explanation for...
@@wizcatcheslightning But Demise is the real demon king, before any incarnations. Hylia rose the lands for the hylians because Demise made sure to get all opposing factions stinct, including Zonai. And it was them who descended to more triballistic Hylians than the one on Skyloft as you said.
@@wizcatcheslightning But TotK's. Zonai completely perished to Demise, which happens before any Ganondorf. How can Zonai even have met a Ganondorf? Did some get dragged along on the sky islands and stay kind of frozen in time or something?
@@REALmyenemy we don’t know how the Zonai perished, so that would be speculation that it was at the hands of Demise. I’ll make a video about them eventually.
i do agree with the notion that placing totk's "past" inbetween the old timeline somewhere doesnt really work, and if we're assuming/ going with the idea that it's not a soft reboot (which i do think is fair since totk and botw seem to have quite a bit of skyword sword bits and references) placing it at the end of everything still creates a lot of questions and potential issues like where is the master sword, how can they enter the zonai structure inside the forgotton temple if the hylia statue is in the way etc etc but i do wonder, whats the potential issues with placing totk past *before* skyword sword? its a little odd but i'd like to know actual reasons why that wouldnt work, maybe there are none and it does work, who knows obviously no matter what you do with theories it will probably not work out that well since zelda as a series isnt very good with timelines or connected lore, like, at all. they make it p clear that they prefer focusing on making a good game instead of worrying about potential lore discrepancies, and the fact that they retconned their own official timeline so many times just reinforces that
So I would encourage you to watch my previous video if you haven’t already. Other than my Fi point, you can use the other points I made to mostly disprove the before SS placement of TOTK’s past.
Tbh it's not really a lie per se. But just the kingdom was lost to time and then reborn sometime later right after a new evil was also birthed by destiny.
The part that I'm curious about with the timeline is "What was the event that caused 3 separate timelines to merge"? There's no way three completely separate timelines with radically different events all lead to a single point, since then there'd be 3 different histories to Breath of the wild & TotK. However, these games seem to have.. hints, that all three of the timeline's histories have all happened.. despite the fact that it's three different parallel worlds separated by a clear dimension. This probably means that the merging of the timelines wasn't something that happened naturally, but rather some kind of divine intervention that smooshed the three histories together and possibly resulted in not just the destruction of Hyrule, but regressed the hylians to such a tribal state. I mean, Imagine a history where hyrule just gets obliterated by two separate disasters.. is abandoned by a portion of, or the entirety of the Royal family to start a new kingdom on another land, because the current Hyrule was impossible for them to recover.. leaving a large majority of the Hylian citizens to fend for themselves. Perhaps at some point, New Hyrule is destroyed beyond repair, and the royal family comes back to hyrule to recolonize it, only to find the remains of the Zonai? This.. comment has definitely spiraled far too off track, but I honestly would like to see a game about the convergence of timelines, perhaps a "final" wish is made with the triforce that causes it to shatter that merges the 3 timelines. Perhaps the final boss of that game could take place after this happens, since it doesn't make sense that the royal family or the hero would make such a wish, or even be aware of time travel outside the legend of the hero of time. Not going to count hyrule warriors as a means of "merging the timelines."
Well it would be within the realm of Japanese games where you end up having to kill God. So maybe they’ll release a game where tada you gotta fight the goddesses and make the merge
Absurdly long timeskips and tital societal collapses are truly the duct tape that holds the Zelda timeline together. Breath of the Wild alread threw in a casual 10,000 year gap since between game start and the last time Ganon got beat down by sheikah tech. With an indeterminate amount of time between that and the timeline merger point. What's another collapse back to the stone age, mass forgetting, and refounding wedged into that gap. Still pretty impressive that New Hyrule has over 10k years of continuity.
With enough mental gymnastics ToTK can go anywhere, but the merged refounding of Hyrule makes sense, narratively and for devs wanting to simplify their lore. I saw one recently that placed ToTK's Zonai past adjacent with OoT into the leadup to the Downfall timeline. Basically stating that Zelda going to the past caused the original imprisoning war to lead to Rauru's and Ganondorf's sealing being the catalyst of the downfall timeline. Its absolutely insane and has way too many reaches, but its still a fun thing to think about. The channel who made it was Wazoomo, if you have an hour to kill its a good time.
Of course there are many plot holes. But It's canon botw happens long after every game, and that's the reason there are some ruins from the ocarina temple of time, but when zonai Rauru shows up there are no ruins, in fact he builds his temple of time at the same spot as ocarina's temple.... So Zonai Rauru kingdom comes much before every game, even before the master sword and the triforce. His remains raise up to the sky and Hyrule story begins.
I consider this to be a lot of cope from people who don't want to accept Nintendo doesnt really care about lore if it gets it the way of fun. The references are fun and I think they're just the product of a new hyrule the new zelda games can be based in
I think with Rauru being a repeated name, this is a retroactive reboot to make you think his influence was there all along and that oot rauru was named after him. Like the 3 eyes of the sheikah and them maybe being descended from the zonai with how the ancient blades function identically to the ancient arrows of botw. Tears of the kingdom doesn't feel like a true story of beginnings to me, it seems like they're closing the book with a little bow. Mineru and Rauru are the last of [pure] zonai but we know Zelda is part zonai (her dragon form's ears actually look pretty zonai with how the fur covers the tops of them and fold just like rauru's). Very weird of them to not show Sonia's kid running around in the background or something, like it doesn't seem like they even have kid(s). Sonia has to be of hylia's descent but she isn't named Zelda, presumably, no one has been named Zelda for awhile for them to not recognize the name. It's hard to make sense of it through any other lens that's not a reboot. "Everything before now were just stories and legends" meaning that details in past games could've been wrong or are now inaccurate. Unless the picori evolved into the blupees there's only proof that they have been replaced. The Hyrule Historia isn't consistent either, they change stuff up every now and then, they're bound to make a new installment that places this game somewhere in "the timeline"
i gotta say, originally i believed that rauru's and sonia's hyrule was after skyward sword, but after this video? youve convinced me that it takes place long long after. well done!
I feel bad for calling you pretentious now, you're fighting the good fight by killing this fan misconception. Think of my comment calling you pretentious more of a playful tease of the overly nerdy/brainy quirk your videos have, rather than an attack on your character :) I really like your theories.
What changed your mind? 😅 And you know what? It’s water under the bridge. My focus with Zelda theories has been trying to get the community to talk more about things in a way that’s not disparaging. Disagreements allow for us all to get closer to the truth. So thanks for coming back 🤗
@@wizcatcheslightning Your reply taking into consideration feedback made you seem more introspective. To add to your theory. The BOTW Temple of Time is in pristine condition 100 years ago in AOC, making it newer than the OoT/TP Temple of Time in ruins. Zelda Encyclopedia states that OoT Ganondorf was the first and explicitly not born between SS, MC, and FS. And finaly TOTK states its version of Hyrule Castle was undamaged for eons in Gandorf's profile and a monument beneath the castle, while the OoT and TP castles were clearly damaged.
@@Luxembourgish right on 😎 Also, I appreciate this info! This theory is definitely still upstream within the community, so every supportive detail helps haha
@@wizcatcheslightning Yo Wiz, just so you know a new Famitsu interview has the devs say Hyrule Kingdom may have been destroyed before Rauru founded his kingdom, use this information and *crush* the dissenters >:D
Me personally, I would think the past portion of TOTK would take place maybe 50 or so years after Skyward Sword, then the rest of the timeline would unfold from there. It seems to me that after The Imprisioning War before Zelda fucked it up, that who else founded Hyrule afterwards was ordered to cover up any Zonai devices and architecture. I think that would totally make sense considering how much they were really a mystery in BOTW, and how long the original Ganondorf was really kept underground. I also believe that since Tears Ganon was presumed dead by fate that the other incarnations of him popped up that way, but suddenly stopped around the time the Great Calamity happened 10,000 years prior to BOTW. Probably rounding up the whole timeline spanning over 25,000 years, but Idk, that’s just what I’m thinking. Chronologically, I think the events of past TOTK would make more sense if it weren’t for Zelda and Link’s intervention of the seal beneath Hyrule Castle. Especially Zelda cuz I doubt that last mural would’ve been what it was had Zelda not picked up that time stone.
I decided to add my own head cannon to the events in order to look past the inconsistencies. With the Tri-Force being made up of 3 triangles, the middle of the symbol leaves a hole in the form of a fourth triangle. Think of each timeline as one of those triangles. This timeline merges aspects from the other timelines, but rather than being part of any specific timeline, its actually a whole new timeline. If you think of the main timelines like continents, this timeline is like an island collecting coastal debris. Why? Because time travel creates paradoxes (paradoxes also need to exist for time travel to be possible, at least, time travel to the past). Paradoxes are messy, like trash, and can destroy timelines. So, the timeline goes on to correct itself and throws this trash out (not saying this game is trash, I actually like BOTW and TOTK), that trash ends up as this timeline. This is the paradox timeline. The missing triangle in the triforce, the triangle that can't exist without throwing the other timelines out of balance. If the balance and cycle of destruction, regroth, and prosperity are to continue, this timeline exists to hold the scale... Or maybe Ive just been watching too much Loki. IDK. I always try to add deeper lore to things as a means to ignore inconsistencies, (especially when there tends to be different witers, developers, programers or whatnot) otherwise I nit pick it too much and ruin the experience.
In BOTW, it’s said a dragon split the Dueling Peaks, and in the background of one of the cutscenes you mentioned, the Dueling Peaks is still in one piece in Rauru’s time. If TOTK came after the timeline convergence as you theorized, then the Dueling Peaks you see in the OG LOZ would have to be re-smooshed together and then re-separated by a dragon later.
Remember how they said ten thousand years I was doing some research I looked in to ten thousand years it means multiple things. 10,000 Wan is used in Chinese to express “the biggest number of possible” (hence, uttering “10,000 years!” to express the wish someone a long life). But I have to keep doing more research on it because I’m not a expert in the Chinese language
Though, I do think the Wish in LttP could have merged the timelines (bringing people back from the dead - wishing to reverse everything Ganon did), I do find this theory viable too. Plus I think you mention prior that Creating a Champion said no male Gerudo has been born since the one causing the Calamity? Urbosa herself says that Ganon once took the form of a Gerudo - but I've not sat down with CaC yet.
Definitely agree with this timeline placement, putting it right after SS just leaves too many inconsistencies. The existence of a new Ganondorf pretty much confirms it as well, if ToTK's past took place where people were thinking OOT and 4 Swords Adventure Ganondorfs couldn't exist since there would still be an incarnation of Demises Hatred existing under the castle; leading to no more male Gerudo's like what was mentioned in BoTW.
I feel like the zonai are the reason for the convergence, the 2 things we vaguely know because of the 2 most recent games, are that the zonai came down at some point for some reason, and there is evidence of all 3 timelines suggesting a convergence, I don't think they are 2 separate mysteries, and probably the 3 zonai who turned into the 3 dragons had something to do with the timelines converging, maybe why the triforce isn't really around too, like some ritual the zonai did Involvong the triforce and the sacred stones bringing the three timelines together. Then they leave because that's what they came to do, technically windwaker explains the depths the koroks are supposed to grow and cover the water making a new land, it's an actual plan the great deku tree is in the process of doing in that game, but will take a long time to do. maybe the depths are the original hyrule from most games but combining the timelines brought the land from windwaker the koroks made, and why the zonai are in the depths are to mine all the stuff left from older kingdoms because they didn't know one of the timelines had a flood and new land above.
Not sure if I like it better to have Hyrule be annihilated and forgotten completely so Zonai-Rauru could create it anew or trying to fit all together to make sense with the already chaotic timeline I know and love. However, assuming Hyrule as we knew it before BotW was lost in time after (almost) complete annihilation this would also help understand why no one got suspicious when A Gerudo King called Ganondorf appeared? As a king I would immediately try to get rid of this Ganondorf knowing the history that another (or multiple other) Ganondorf(s) throughout history always tried to dye the world in blood and chaos. I am sure though I'd like to know where the Zonai origin from but also wish BotW and TotK wouldn't exist and be just a nightmare. If I wanted to fit in BotW/TotK Hyrule though I would do it like this: Demise is destroyed in the present by Links wish leads to the timeline where Zonai-Rauru establishes Hyrule. Demise is killed by Link in the past, after Ghirahim abducts Zelda to sacrifice her leads to the Minish Cap timeline. Anyway, what I would love though is if Nintendo would establish the Twili as a mainstay civilization next (although I firmly believe the Twili were actually inspired by Veran of Oracle of Ages, which would make Capcom indirectly the creator of the Twili. It's a couple years earlier after all and the similarities to Twili are obvious enough to me, maybe even Onox below his Armor looks like a Twili) to Hyrule like the Gorons and Zora. And the Picori and Deku Scrubs would return as well. It's funny though, Ocarina of Time introduced the Gerudo as a mainstay (though chronologically didn't Minish Cap also have some Gerudo? Not sure, would need to check more), Wind Waker introduced the Rito as a mainstay civilization and Breath of the Wild made the Shiekah a stable (and the Yiga as a side effect) that is more than just 1 or 2 plot related persons so I count that as a mainstay introduction. Maybe I can hope that the next Zelda would establish another mainstay civilization that hasn't appeared often so far as well. Maybe it could even be the Twili (would you say they have a higher chance for that than others? Since there is also Majoras Mask maybe it would be Deku Scrubs then Twili as a chance percentage). Okay, enough tangent. Ultimately I would just love a Hyrule that is thriving with ALL the civilizations ever introduce in Zelda before the evil (Ganondorf) threatens it all (I mean higher stakes the more diversity of civilizations there are, that would face annihilation if the villain would get his way). Would also help to change out all this filler landscape I hated so much in BotW and TotK, if there were more civilization that have buildings and settlements in the world or imagine a Civ game with all the Zelda civilizations.
16:30 this actually works with the canon of TOTK. It was confirmed that Sonia was a priestess of the goddess Hylia before she married and became Queen. (Also implied that she is also Hylia's descendent/blood) Since the temple of time that we see in TOTK is clearly a Zonai structure, it is more then likely that there was Hylian counter parts to the temple. It possibly was destroyed by a calamity or forgetting when the kingdom collapsed. The Temple of Time in the sky was likely made by the Zonai or even Rauru to show further union between the last two Zonai and their new kingdom. If she knew about the Master sword, she probably didn't say anything about it because there was no Hero to retrieve it. It also makes sense to me if Hyrule's original kingdom collapsed and then established a ruling system based on a theocratic system. So that could account for Sonia's status and why Rauru chose to marry her. Ppl clamor to religion in uncertain times. For all we know, the Zonai may have came from the sky but the Hylians might have been there first. The Zonai likely has their domaine in the depths, considering that their Zonai deposits can only be found there (and the mine in the sky was confirmed to have been moved there). Since the depths shows twili (who may I add are a sub race of hylians) and one other mystery race's influence, I bet you that the Zonai were a younger but more temporary empire. The Zonai probably collapsed when the calamity struck, or that mining for Zonai is was released Demise back from his spirit prison.
i'm saying this, watchin the videos at 22:02 but, what if Zonai where simply Evolved Minish ? Same architecture, and, if BOTW/TOTK take place after the merged of the three timelines, it would make sense since the minish don't even got any information about the Master Sword or the Triforce
![Why Rauru's Kingdom Wasn't FIRST (ft. @wizcatcheslightning ) [TotK THEORY]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Gajk1u4Qt20/mqdefault.jpg)
Thinking At Max Volume's video: ua-cam.com/video/Gajk1u4Qt20/v-deo.html
i thank you for making the video i would have done if i was an established youtuber but also less aggressive. (seriously i would have called into question all big zelda tuber's sanity)
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Hey there are we still waiting for the kids
Hey 😢😢😢😢😮
😢👸
Can you make a video about the six sage's?
@@humangirl2122 did you watch TAMV’s video? 😅
@@wizcatcheslightning Who's TAMV?
Since BotW i've felt that series was going thru a soft reboot. It's the only explanation that makes the most sense. This became more apparent with TotK. It feels like the developers don't really want to commit to any hard timeline placements and only want to acknowledge past games in the form of fun Easter eggs and references.
I don't think Nintendo took the lore and the inconsistencies seriously until they'd already written themselves into a convoluted, 3 timeline corner. Now that the canon has started to be so consequential, they're _TRYING_ to fix it, but there isn't any efficient way to properly merge them into anything cohesive, so they're just going the "Don't look behind the curtain" route. Or possibly even leaving it so vague, so that the ZeldaTubers will theorize an acceptable answer FOR them and they can say, "Yeah, that's what we mean" when really they didn't even know themselves haha
Its the Legend of zelda, yes their are games that fit together as a greater lore but i always thought of it as the same story just being retold threw the generations.
As though some elder was telling you the story of zelda 1 and 2, then you as a parent retell the story but this time its a link to the past, then your kid retells the story at recess and it becomes OoT. Then their kids ask about what happens next, and one parent makes up the story of wind waker and the other tells the story of twilight princess. Then their kids ask about the master sword and they make up skyward sword.Its a legend that changes threw the generations but it all started with link just saving a princess.
They never really cared about the timeline to begin with they pretty much made one because of years of fans asking for one but the timeline says subject to change and Nintendo has said numerous times that they'll make the games they want to make first and if they remember they'll try and place it into the timeline but they think a timeline is more restraining than anything
You still get stuff like ocarina of time leads to Majora's and finally twilight Princess or a link to the past into the oracle games and then links awakening or the windwaker trilogy but straight up cannon for all the games doesn't work too well I mean a timeline where you don't beat ocarina of time is kinda dumb to begin with
I think something that flat out proves this is something we learn from Gannondorf's character profile in totk. Whilst malice will always leak out and cause a Calamity, the only thing that actually damages the seal is Hyrule castle being damaged. Hyrule castle being damaged in Botw is actually the first time Rauru's seal was weakened. And because we see Hyrule castle get flat out destroyed multiple times this means that Gannondorf couldn't be sealed down there during the older games. We know for a fact that Botw and Totk are connected to the existing timeline so them (past & present) taking place after is the only explanation that works.
AMAZING point
So amazing that I added it as a point in my pinned comment referencing you @mrbiscuits001
@@wizcatcheslightning There's also the fact we know what the Ancient Hero of 10000 years ago looks like and he's implied to be some kind of a Zonai/Hylian mix but that wouldn't be possible since in the original Japanese, Ganondorf mentions how the Zonai is effectively extinct by that time and yet the Ancient Hero exists thousands of years from the time of Hyrule's founding so this doesn't make sense. The only possible way I can see these two co-existing is if this was the kingdom of 10000 years ago.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 I worry about this theory - people aren't taking into account the ancient hero is digitagrade and Hylians and Zonai are plantigrade. (Also no glowing ends on the hair-which we see on the Trio dragons and Rauru - though a mix could negate that - there is also the tail - which we only see the likes of on the Last dragon in TotK). There is a high chance the Ancient hero is a mix of all races too - which would be interesting.
Or is Link dressed in the Aspect gear who went back in time due to time shenanigans XD.
We also know there are other places races live outside Hyrule - nothing says the soul of the Hero has to be from Hyrule.
We know from the stone monument in Hyrule Castle that the Castle itself is meaningless to the seal. The Castle is there so people do not disturb the ground, as doing so might disturb the seal that is deep underneath where the Castle was built. This means that the castle itself could, theoretically, be destroyed as often as one wants without the seal breaking, so long as the damage does not go deep enough underground to disturb the actual location of the seal. This simply means that the damage caused by Calamity Ganon might not have done as much damage to the castle proper as many other instances, but it is the first time the damage went deep enough to disturb the seal (at least, disturb it enough to let it break).
So, sadly, that point actually does not actually serve as proof of anything. It is a good idea, but we have some in-game reasoning to doubt it.
The only thing I can't quite follow is how the symbols of the old Hyrule made it into the revered status they have in new Hyrule. Following a total civilizational wipeout, the holy symbols of the Triforce and the Loftwing iconography are still somehow everywhere, most importantly on the crest of Hyrule's royal family. If the Zonai re-founded Hyrule, it would make far more sense for the royal crest of new Hyrule to include things like shrine spirals, secret stones, and Rauru's arm.
I will resolve this by assuming there was an event of vast cultural significance involving the goddess Hylia, the Triforce, Loftwings, and the Hylians recovering their Skyloftian roots before, during, or after the first rise of Calamity Ganon. If the new Hylians saw that take place and ascribe their victory over Calamity Ganon to Hylia, Loftwings, and the Triforce, then the iconography could absolutely take root again. Even better if the Link and Zelda of that era found a Hylian Shield from ages long past, the symbols upon mirroring their salvation.
Think it's worth noting how much SS ruins are around in BotW/TotK. The symbol may have simply been re-lifted from the iconography of those ruins.
And I think the springs of courage, wisdom, and power had the hyrulian symbol on them and I think they were there before Rauru became the new king and that's maybe another reason why they still share that symbol as the land of Hyrule
I think the mistake here is we are under the assumption that the Zonai RE-FOUNDED Hyrule when in fact, the game suggests that the Rauru and Sonia are THE founders of THE Kingdom of Hyrule. Another zelda tuber made an interesting theory that the third game in this series would take the ALttP route and it is only there that the Triforce will be mentioned for the first time in this universe.
@@gentlemanbronco3246 which he bases on nintendo "remaking" older titles. but that falls apart when one does not ignore "a link between worlds". a literal remake/sequel. the Lttp remake has already been made, link awakening as also been remade. there is nothing in that timeline to be remade....
and there are still myths of the old links are mentioned by zelda and survived at least as myth
This is what my first assumption was when playing the game. It just made the most sense to me to assume that Rauru founded a new Hyrule after the previous ones fell. We know this has happened at least once before in the series (e.g. Wind Waker, and probably also Zelda 2) so there's no problem with thinking it could happen again.
Glad you think so! I’m sure you can imagine that a lot of people disagree 😅
They did a horrible job of explaining that..
@@ZeranZeranbasically because Nintendo specifically said that they didn’t care about timelines because they felt the games would be restrained on the idea of continuity se they just scratched that and waited for the fandom to fill in the blanks just like with this theory (which to be honest I REALLY love this theory as it make everything make sense)
I personally think that BOTW & TOTK take place in a timeline where Hyrule descended from the sky and crushed Demise under it. So it sees echoes of the other timeline, but has its own story going on because Demise didn't survive long enough to put his curse on future generations.
@@dhrgkbqxtjr2743 That's another possibility I've thought of. If we're keeping with the idea that TotK's past is right after skyward sword, then this could be the original timeline that Girahim changed when he brought Zelda back in time.
The people at Nintendo had no idea how important the history and lore was going to be to the players. They just wanted to make a good game. No way did they put a fraction of the energy into making a well thought out timeline which is why we need videos like yours today.
At the time of Ocarina of Time, there was a man who cared about the story, Yoshiaki Koizumi. Except A Link To The Past, the three Zelda on which he worked had a real continuity : Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. But after the last one he left Zelda to focus on Mario, It's at this moment, that the chronology started to loose importance in the stories.
Except no twilight princess acknowledges its in the child timeline. Ganondorf calls the master blade "a fancy sword, but nothing more" because hes never seen it. @@clementrenaud4260
@@clementrenaud4260I read this in David Hayter's voice.
Hero's shade disproves the attitude 'they don't care about continuity or timelines'
Note that Rauru is speaking present tense. I think it’s up in the air wether he’s aware there was a prior Hyrule, just that it would have been long ago. So I think he is wondering if there is someone making a claim for the kingdom that he’s unaware of
Rauru: "Hmmm, well, we call it the Kingdom of Hyrule because it's in Hyrule, but Hyrule is very large. Is there another kingdom here? It would make sense to have the name, too..."
Zelda might be stronger that Sonia because she bears the Triforce. In game, we know the triforce shows on her hand when she imprisons the Calamnity. Light also emanates from the BACK of her hand when she begins healing the Master sword in TotK, rather then her palm. Some have claimed they can barely see the triforce during that scene. In larger lore, this also makes sense and allows us to explain why the triforce isn’t present.
From OOT, when know that the triforce is unique in time travel in that it cannot occupy two places at the same time in the same way as say the Master Sword, which simultaneously exists on Zeldragon and in Links possession during BotW. The triforce doesn’t play by this rule. When OOT Link goes back in time at the end of the game, back to before Ganondorf touched it, he possessed the Triforce of Courage as you can see on his hand in the very last shot of the game. All of a sudden, Ganondorf has the triforce without opening the Sacred Realm, as we see the the flashback in TP. The triforce pieces cannot duplicate, instead the Triforce of Courage stayed with Link, breaking the other two pieces and having them sent to Ganondorf and presumably Zelda. The Divine Prank, then was not a malicious action of the gods, but rather the Triforce not allowing itself to duplicate.
TotK Zelda seems to possess the divine light of the Triforce, which amplifies her power.
Great thought here. I’ve expanded on this idea in several previous videos. You might like my “the divine pranks that resolved wind waker” video 🤗
Monster Maze has a convincing video theory on the same note, “The mystery of the Triforce in Breath of the Wild”: Slyward Sword’s Link also had the entire Triforce inside of him, and in the same way, BotW/TotK Zelda also has the entire Triforce inside of her.
@@LoudWaffle I’ve seen and love that video 😎
I also noticed that in several cut scenes where Zelda is using a immense amount of power a faint or fuzzy outline of the three triangles can be seen. The best one I can think of is when Rauru gets that boost from both Sonia and Zelda. The triforce is there but in hiding, I feel like they didn't go off so hard bc they had hope to make a trilogy and wanted to bait ppl's curiosity
She almost definitely does, and likely can be seen using it to assist Raru against the swarm of Moldugga. Naturally, with it pumping obscene amounts of magic into a secret stone, the resulting blast is going to be unreal, and the death star beam they produced would seem to verify that.
It also makes a lot of sense because if the kingdom of Hyrule's 3 timelines converged then the effects of that would be utterly catastrophic given you not only have very different people with very different histories, but you would also have three royal families who probably wouldn't want to give up their own power. Combine that with all the monsters and the Downfall Timeline in general, yeah, the original Hyrule falling isn't that big of a stretch.
With all of these early positive comments I’m expecting a flood of naysayer and negative comments to instill a karmic balance any moment now 😂
@@wizcatcheslightning Sorry to hear that.
There are also pieces of evidence is Sonia being a descendant of goddess Hylia (and probably SS Link). We see she has tattoos all over her body, which Rauru lacks altogether and Mineru only has a tear on her nose, with one being the Hyrulean Royal Crest with the triforce above the goddess crest, implying this symbolizes her family ancestry. We also see in the ancient past it's this symbol represented Hyrule's royal family and not the Zonai symbol and we see Sonia's crown resembling bird wings. It's also said that she was born to a family of priestesses which would make sense if she was a descendant of the goddess Hylia. We also see hear Ganondorf say that Rauru has taken a Hyrulean woman as his wife, not Hylian. Well, this wouldn't really make much sense if this was the first founding of Hyrule since Hyrulean refers to all races of Hyrule, not just Hylians, and if they founded the Kingdom the first time why would it matter that Rauru took a Hyrulean woman as his bride. She's no more a Hyrulean woman than he's a Hyrulean man unless he's not really considered a Hyrulean by their margins.
It also makes perfect sense why Rauru married Sonia other than love because if she is a descendant of SS Zelink, she's the one with the claim to the throne. Anyone who marries her would not only have the ability to become the new King of Hyrule in centuries but have their children be born with that divine blood. It also makes sense why Ganondorf targeted specifically her vs Rauru or Zelda because not only is he the reincarnation of Demise who just hates the blood of the goddess, Rauru's claim to Hyrule is weakened by her death their children would be next in line.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 The way Rauru believes he is the first King would imply that Sonia wasn't considered royalty since she would have been from a royal family. Sonia is a priestess and she likely came from those same tribal Hylians that now acts as guards. The symbols all over her are just tattoo's passed down to symbolize her ancestry but she probably has no clue what they mean and doesn't know she's part of Goddess Hylia's bloodline, much less that the Triforce exists.
@@nworder4life Well, she might've not grown up with the knowledge she was born with the blood of the goddess or with royal blood, but she could've found out later since she can sense blood connections and she does have time powers.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 Well she would likely think that the bloodline connection is a connection to the future meaning she would eventually have children. There's nothing that would indicate that her bloodline in the past was something special...but then again Zelda's family did know about Hylia's bloodline so maybe Zelda told Sonia that in the past and Sonia made sure to pass that information down to the present in some way, perhaps stone tablets.
Sonia was probably weaker because the understanding of the power of their bloodline might have been temporarily lost to time. You can't work with what you don't know or understand very much of.
Also, Zelda possessed the Triforce.
And this is where their theory weakens. If the Triforce is passed down generation to generation and Sonia is the same line, then Sonia should have the Triforce as well. Or not if is instantly given to a child at birth so her child with Rauru, which must exist before she is killed, leaves a gap in the bloodline's ability to use it.
@@garrettgrooms2773 no Sonia isn't a zelda, zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess so only a zelda would have the triforce. not all the princesses are zeldas. therefore the time power is just something that runs though the family not just the zeldas but i think the triforce can be making it stronger for zelda
Zelda woke her triforce in botw
I like to think that while Old Hyrule completely collapsed after the timeline merging, on the different continent New Hyrule was just vibing and now there's just casually 2 places called Hyrule
There is a *very* easy way for Hyrule to have collapsed in the way you suggest. See, in Breath of the Wild, Zelda states that all daughters born into the Royal Family are named “Zelda” (likely after her). This has obviously also been the case since the Minish Cap, because the name Zelda has reappeared time and again. But what if there *were* no daughters of the Hyrulean Royal Family for several centuries? What if this caused the Hylians to believe the gods had abandoned them, slowly forgetting them until nothing remained of the “Legend of Zelda, Goddess of Time”? The name “Hylia” could easily be re-found from ancient shrines, those that were kept out in the open and able to be seen. Meanwhile, the Hyrulean Royal Family buried their dead in crypts, inaccessible to the public. The name of Zelda, the legends of the Master Sword, and even the first Kingdom of Hyrule, could all be forgotten. Hylia’s statues survived millennia between the attack of Demise, and the descension of Link to the Land of Hylia, which is why the Skyloftians believed that the Surface was either a barren wasteland, or nonexistent. But much of the buildings and icons that were made by the Hylians crumbled away after a few centuries. Hyrule’s Kingdom, Zelda, Link and even the Master Sword and the Triforce could be long forgotten until Zelda’s appearance in the Zonai Kingdom of Hyrule. The existence of Rauru having the same name as the Sage of Light? An intervention by Hylia, as a way to try and help her children remember their past.
Im gonna be honest, I really like this new generation of Zelda UA-camrs. You and Thinkingatmaxvolume are really professional and clear about the topics without milking for content. Big respect and looking forward to future uploads!
Thanks LittleRedFox!
@@wizcatcheslightningyou are a Nintendo fanboy who can’t admit Totk is literally the worst game ever made
@@Rarkss Zelda CD-i games would like a word
@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 they are better
@@Rarkss not sure where you’re drawing this conclusion. I never said this 😂
Ever since BOTW it felt like the game was set far, far, far, FAR in the future. The timescale of at least 10,000 years mentioned within that game alone and making mention of events and characters we never heard of before just means its waaaaay farther away from the other games than those games were from each other.
I have had the thought that this has to take place after any timeline merge as proposed by the "Dragonbreak" theory. The big thing is that the same director of SS is the same as BotW and TotK, he wouldn't want to be undoing a work in his own resume, especially since it was supposed to be the first Zelda game chronologically. While the games themselves are likely a soft reboot, I feel like Nintendo wouldn't completely erase what came before.
Plus, as soon as it becomes marketable, the old stuff will be considered relevant again.
All three having the same director is the one thing that throws me for a loop, otherwise it looks like a heavy, heavy case of Nintendo wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Let's not forget that until they released their official timeline it was just fun fan speculation that there was any connection at all. It's one thing if you want to retcon a few elements from some games that came decades before to bring everything into a proper alignment, but now Nintendo has just straight up contradicted and changed their own "official" timeline in all sorts of ways when they're the ones that made it in the first place. Either there's a history to the world or not.
Makes sense to me. It's like Hyrule (the land, not the kingdom) went through its own dark ages, where much of their history was forgotten. They may have even forgot about Hylia since Sonia is referred to as "Hyrulean" instead of "Hylian" (although she apparently was a priestess before becoming queen? Interesting). Seems like the Zonai weren't able to fully get them out of their dark age (since they still look primitive at a point when there are only 2 Zonai left), but the Sheikah eventually were.
You guys are doing a great job. One thing about Zelda and Sonia's power difference - is it possible they were suggesting that Zelda possesses the Triforce? We did see the symbol apear on her hand at the end of Botw. Could be a subtle hint, but i like the zonai ascendency plan, demi gods sent to re-invigorate the royal bloodline is pretty metal
I'm pretty sure that scene was just meant to confirm what Sonia had already said on their first encounter: Zelda is descended from both Sonia and Rauru, so she inherited both their light and time powers.
I’m a firm believer that she had the Triforce
@@wizcatcheslightning Agreed. On another note I would very much like to hear more discussion about the scene in the garden with the trio in the past... The way Sonia and Raura laugh and prod lovingly about link seems like nothing at first... But the more I see that scene, the more it seems like they know or assume something, that is not being talked about outright. Rauru's ears perk up when he hears links name for the first time, if they did indeed have a child b4 Sonia died, they could've unknowingly named their child link, but that's a huge jump, it could be anything, it could be nothing. That's why you're the expert lol.
@@dangerousalone5070 I’ll take a look at it but I can’t make any promises 😅
The full Triforce crest also appears on Zelda's hand when she is healing the Master Sword in TotK. It is only just barely visible because of the enormous glare, but it can be made out clearly if you invert the colors in a screenshot of that scene. Incontrovertible evidence IMHO.
Gannon calls Sonia "Hyrulian" in a way that implies the Hyrulians are an ethnic group. However, they're ethnicity has always been called Hylian. The term "Hyrule" comes from the kingdom. The term Hyrulian and Hylian shouldn't become synonymous for an ethnicity until well after the kingdom has been established (we see this in real life). I may be over relying on English dialogue, but it suggest an older association for the name Hyrule.
Good point. As far as I know, Hylian/Hyrulean have always been interchangeable terms describing the people of Hyrule, but I think you make an important distinction! I will point out that there are humans in Zelda as well. By humans, I mean “people who aren’t of Hylian descent”. You can see them in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. They lack pointed ears.
Hyrulians are citizens of Hyrule, in the BoTW timeline that includes Hylians, Sheikah, Zoras, Gorons, Ritos, and Gerudos.
In the Hyrule Warriors and Age of Calamity games, we see Hylian units take on the moniker of Hyruleans as well, which is not the case for Goron, Zora, Gerudo, Rito, or Skyloft Captains.
@@chocmilk We know that the Hyrulean Civil War that happens before OoT has battles between the Gerudo and Hylians. And the war ends with Ganondorf swearing fealty to the King of Hyrule and the land once again being under the banner of Hyrule.
I don't think he was implying an ethnic group. I think he was referring to those in the new kingdom of Hyrule. The Zora, Gorons, Rito, and Gerudo (later once they join the kingdom, but he was not referring to them here) are all Hyrulians -members of the kingdom of Hyrule, but not Hylians.
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May not be the first. But god dang, Raru is the most handsome King of Hyrule.
I agree with this.
Edit: I think Zelda is stronger than Sonia because she (unknowingly) has the full tri-force, and the fact that she isn't a princess named Zelda but the reincarnation of Hylia. Otherwise you adressed all the points I had.
Anther piece of evidence against Totk being early in the time line is the utter lack of mention of the three Golden Goddesses - most egregiously in the three springs tied to their powers. The fact that the three dragons have very similar names suggests people knew about the three goddesses at some point, and lost that information to time. For example, I can see a primitive Hylian civilization assigning the three elemental dragons the identity of the founding goddesses of Hyrule.
I like your take!
Great video, I agree the refounding theory is by far the cleanest explanation.
Thanks GamingEssays!
This was the theory that I first came up with when looking into the lore of TotK and both of you guys in the two videos that you guys made together perfectly explain why I think this theory is correct. I can't wait to have a fun debate with my friends about this and tell them to watch the two videos you made together so they could understand everything once they're done with the game's story(or at least all the memories)
Happy to help you! Glad you found value with the videos and thanks for spreading the word 🤗
Great video. This is what ive been thinking this entire time. Honestly didnt understand why people didnt think this way. Also, i laughed out loud at the Groose part. Great stuff
Thanks on both accounts. Glad you laughed at the Groose part because I loved making that 😂
Argh I was in the middle of writing a script for this exact topic, but you guys did an excellent job covering it! I’m so glad that people are question the placement of BOTW + Tears, because it seems like so many zeldatubers have just accepted the placement of the memories in the timeline and moved on when there’s still so much to consider. Since you guys covered the main argument against Tears being after Skyward Sword, I’ll give my two cents on the collapse of old Hyrule.
I’m gonna get a little crazy, but based on the small amount of proof we have between the two games, I think that the Tears flashbacks actually take place after the original Calamity during the height of the Sheika tech boom. I think the timelines converged and they actually did so well that they had an era of prosperity leading to the invention of Sheika tech. At this time the original Zonai were still on the ground with the rest of the kingdom. The Sheika and Zonai work together to build the divine beasts and guardians to kill Calamity Ganon. The Zonai have a hero capable of wielding the Master Sword and the Hylians have a Princess with the blood of the goddess who work together and take down Calamity Ganon. After the battle, the Kingdom of Hyrule is afraid of the technological might of both races and orders them to decommission the technology. A lot of Sheika do (Aside from those that go on to form the Yiga), while the Zonai decide to leave the kingdom for the skies using the technology they developed. The Hylian Princess falls in love with the Hero or some other important Zonai figure and they leave the kingdom for the skies. The combo of the loss of Sheika tech, Zonai tech, the bloodline of Hylia, plus the possibility of a Sheika-Yiga civil war contributes to the collapse of Hyrule. Up in the sky, the Zonai start to thin out without Hylians to mix their bloodline with and eventually leave Rauru and Mineru as the last of their kind. They decide to descend and find a Hyrule that has regressed to the Bronze Age due to a collapse. Rauru and Mineru meet the priestess Sonia and eventually the rest is History.
Overall I think this makes both storylines fit together nicer, and respects the overall history of the Zelda series better than a total reboot. Sorry this comment ended up being longer than it probably needs to be but hopefully someone finds this interesting at least. If anyone wants more specifics as to why I think events played out this way, then feel free to ask. I think this is already too long though lol
Hey well I think you should still write that script/make that video! The more info that is out there, the better!
And yeah, I would be willing to hear more. What you said was interesting!
@@wizcatcheslightning Thanks a lot man, I guess I’ll keep at it. Alright you asked for it, so here’s my unhinged calamity headcanon proof.
One of the reasons I believe that the Zonai exist around the original Calamity, is that Zonai hero spirit skin received for completing all of the shrines. It states it’s the spirit of a hero from long past, and looks very similar to the hero in the mural of the calamity found in Kakariko Village. A lot of people say that the hero looks different from Rauru and Mineru, and might not be a full blooded Zonai so it can’t be before they exist. However I really don’t think we know enough about their species to make visual comparisons. The Zora’s kings have always had different features from the rest of the race, and Links are typically small and unassuming compared to others so it’s not a good metric anyway. (Through both BOTW and Tears Link is made fun of for his height and physique all the time.) The species could have evolved after the Calamity as well, gaining more physical features than the hero had during his time. Plus Rauru and Mineru were supposed to be the last of the Zonai. It wouldn’t make sense for there to be more after them, hybrid or not. It also wouldn’t make sense for them to gift you a memory of a hero they would have no knowledge of. Rauru didn’t know what happened on the great sky island after his spirit was trapped, so why would he have knowledge of the great Calamity. Mineru was trapped in the Purah pad as well the whole time. (Perhaps she connected to the Sheika tower network, but it sounds like she was asleep the whole time. That also sounds like a major stretch imo.) If the ancient hero was indeed born after Rauru’s time, it would probably mean it was one of his descendants. That would also mean he was part of the royal family, even if he was some sort of hybrid because they valued the Zonai so much. If that’s the case, why is the princess in the mural Hylian??? The princess needs Rauru’s light powers to fight so she would need to be related to him as well, which begs the question why one child would be Hylian and while the other is a Zonai hybrid? Along with the fact that they usually like to make Link and Zelda romantic in the modern games, I don’t think they would want them to be related in any capacity. (Plus Link has always just been an average guy who rises to the occasion. Making his ancestry a big deal kinda goes against that. (I also know the bloodline of the knights of Hyrule thing from ALTTP, but that seems like something that got retconned along with the Master Sword origins due to Skyward Sword.) )
It’s shaky, but I’m going to assert that the ancient hero and the great calamity happened before the Bronze Age collapse. The Zonai hero existed before Rauru’s time and helped fight the calamity. The Sheika also built many shrines in Zonai ruins and had barbarian armor (Zonai made), which to me might show that there was a partnership there. If the ancient hero that helped in the calamity was indeed Zonai, then that would make them contemporaries. It would also mean the Zonai lived on the ground before Rauru came down and there was a time after that when they left again. A large amount of Zonai also means a lot of genetic diversity, which can help explain why the ancient hero doesn’t look like Rauru. Finally, I think it’s really weird Rauru is the one who has the light powers and not Sonia. Typically that belongs to the royal family of Hyrule, so why would the Zonai have that bloodline instead of a hylian family? If we assert that this is not a reboot of the timeline, then the royal family and the Zonai needed to marry at some point. I believe that the Princess and Zonai Hero are most likely to get together considering how many Link and Zeldas have shared romantic feelings before. (Heck just look at these games.)
Now this is a really crackpot theory built on a lot of assumptions, but that’s what being a Zelda theorist is all about man. Hopefully this is coherent, I wrote this out on my phone and I only get to see five lines of text at a time.
@@mindophone makes sense for the most part! Where we differ I think is that I believe the ancient hero came after Sonia and Rauru (unless I read that incorrectly). Sonia and Rauru had an offscreen child, and the ancient mural still exists despite Zelda’s time travel. The divine beasts and Sheikah towers are in the ancient mural as well.
@@wizcatcheslightning Seems like you pretty much got it. Yeah I could easily see the ancient hero being Rauru and Sonia’s kid, and it will most likely be the case. After all, they need to have a child regardless since Zelda has to inherit her powers from somewhere. However it still is really wonky to me that the Zonai hybrid wouldn’t inherit the full extent of Rauru and Sonia’s powers, and a Hylian girl would. I think the one displaying the lineage of the Zonai mixed with Hylians would be more likely to have the light and time powers. Of course I’m trying to apply the rules of genetics to a magical world, so it could totally make sense in the minds of the developers.
Honestly though, what we really need is a game set in that era. I’ve been asking for it since BOTW and I think it would clear up any questions we have. Hopefully at least the inevitable TOTK dlc will have a morsel of info to go off of.
@@mindophone so some really standout differences lead me to believe that the ancient hero is different from Rauru and Mineru. The ancient hero has four toes and like a heel spike of some sort? While Rauru/Mineru have five toes on each foot. The ancient hero also has a tail while Rauru/Mineru do not have tails (I looked at their 3D models to confirm this).
Thank you; I embrace the re-establishment theory as the Zelda series is so cyclic. I've said it before, but it's a private joke to me to imagine the three Golden Goddesses sitting around a table naming themes, placing bets, and then rolling the dice to see what happens THIS time a new Zelda is born, while Dorfy-boy and Link reincarnate. XD
Thank you for painting that picture in my head 😂
@@wizcatcheslightning You are welcome. XD I honestly do not believe that where Zelda goes back in time to is just a few generations after Skyward Sword. That remains the beginning as far as I'm concerned. All the other games and their myths were stories lost to time (but still happened), Hyrule fell, and then the Zonai came, and they were already an old part of Hyrule culture by the time there were only two who still stuck around. I half-theorized that Zonai marrying Hyruleans became common practice as the numbers of the ones who stuck around, dwindled, because ALL the Hylians of Rauru's era have enormous ears, even if most other Zonai features disappeared after a few generations. Rauru and his sister were different as they were the last to stick around and were the keepers of the Secret Stones. Sonia probably never even knew she had light power to tap into, but had practice with her time power so her stone reflected that. More importantly, the Triforce symbol WAS known to that era, but what it meant seemed to have been lost, even then. It was painted right on Sonia's body! You can see in the flashes of Zelda, holding a broken Master Sword, the Triforce symbol on her hand funneling sacred power into the Master Sword as it was repaired over time....because that was Zelda's wish and that was her other powers! ...okay I haven't fully thought it out yet, but it's interesting to ponder.
Either way, I really do enjoy the joke that the Golden Goddesses place bets and roll dice. Wasn't it a "joke of the gods" to give Dorfy-boy the Triforce of Power? The "new" Ganondorf doesn't even know what it is; and he certainly doesn't have it!
@@ZeoViolet all excellent points here and definitely thoughts that I have considered as well 🤗
You may like my previously posted videos (check the vids with the thumbnails “the god tribe” and “the Triforce” as well as “the Zelda pantheon”) after having read this response! I feel like I touch on these subjects in those videos.
@@wizcatcheslightning I remember seeing part of the "God tribe" one, although I would be interested in seeing your thoughts since then, since that came out a few weeks before TotK, and if it changed your view points any. Now that I think about it, I meant to get back to that video after work, and uh...I forgot. XD I'll subscribe to your channel!
@@ZeoViolet right on! I do plan on talking about that subject more! I just need to do more research. I think writing the scripts for these videos is probably one of the tougher challenges of the job 😅
Nintendo already said that BotW takes place so far down the line that they previous timelines are irrelevant relegated to legends. That's a full confirmation that Rauru's kingdom is neither the first nor is it by any means important to any of the three timelines as we know them. And I do think this is a sort of soft reboot of LoZ. BotW started from basically scratch while the events of TotK was a more complicated OoT retelling.
I think the real secret hidden in plain sight is that every mainline game (except ones that are direct sequels to previous games) is a retelling of the SAME story. It’s the LEGEND of Zelda after all! And those who’ve studied mythology, literature, and folklore know that the same stories get told and retold time and time again, but also constantly change, different aspects being added or removed, influenced by the unique influences of the storyteller, their culture, their audience, their history, and many other factors! That’s why every game has so many of the same main elements, while the small details around the periphery constantly change.
@@MerkhVisionBut you also can’t deny that Wind Waker, for example, clearly comes after OoT. The missing hero is directly linked (ha) to the ending of Ocarina and Ganondorf is both older and directly calls back to his Ocarina days in his dialogue. I feel like the whole mythology thing is a bit of a copout that became relevant only recently because every game muddied the details more
The only thing that bothers me is why the Great Plateau bears such an uncanny resemblance to Castle Town and Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time. Nintendo may have retconned it to just being an easter egg, but I can’t help but wonder if theres something more going on
We do know that the Forgotten Temple lays in what's referred to as the Valley of the Royal Family. Maybe as more of the Temple was excavated by TOTK's ancient explorers, some of Old Hyrule's original history was discovered. It being referred to as the "Forgotten Temple" is in itself an oddity. We know that Hyrule used to flood constantly, so maybe the lower levels had been buried because of landslides.
Zora's Domain Cave beneath the current Zora's Domain definitely feels like a call back to OoT's Domain. I believe that when the Water Temple had been built, the descending water generated by the Temple had eroded away part of the mountain range that surrounded the spring. This erosion would end up displacing earth and would be responsible for the creation of Reservoir Lake. This would also go on to explain the new climate and phenomenon of periodic floods. Given a lack of flooding before this, perhaps no danger had presented itself to the Forgotten Temple beforehand. This would be why the OG Royal Family didn't bother to build it higher off the ground.
The great plateau is the castle town from OOT. The forgotten temple is the temple of time from skyward sword.
@bagofshhh Part of the notion that the Great Plateau is where Castle Town was is because the sky Island descending from Skyloft could explain why it's raised up so high. The Sealed Temple, having been rebuilt as OoT's Temple of Time, was a novel idea that went along with this. Each temple had Hylia's sage crests and a chamber to the rear that held the Master Sword. Now that we know that the Zonai could raise and lower islands themselves, the island isn't really evidence of being OoT's Castle Town. The Temple of Time that sits on the Great Plateau also lacks a rear chamber, making it much more likely that this was the original site for Rauru and Sonia's ruling seat. King Daphnes mentions thar its the site of Hyrule's birth. The ruling seat being built where they proclaimed the joining of their peoples makes much more sense.
@@josephasbury4492 King Daphnes refers to at as the birthplace of Hyrule, because that’s what it is. It is the exact location where the the three goddesses left Hyrule upon creating it. Which was the temple of time from OOT, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess. The castle was nearly destroyed after the waters and the Tower of the Gods came crashing down at the end of Wind Waker. As seen in Twilight Princess, it was both elevated, and nearly completely destroyed. It has clearly been rebuilt and used as a ceremonial center at some point, because King Daphnes also referred to it as such.
@bagofshhh There's nothing stating that the Temple of Time is the same spot where the Goddesses left, nor is it stated for Hylia's Temple. Ocarina's Temple of Time being built marked the birth of Old Hyrule; the Zonai Temple of Time seen in TOTK is similar in name only, just like there was an abandoned temple called the Temple of Time in Lanayru.
We know that the Zonai Temple of Time laid on the western edge of the plateau, around the area where the Old Man's cabin is. Given that this can't be the location of BOTW's Temple, that really only leaves the area leading to the north of where Rauru launched his counterattack on the Molduga. Seeing as the area to the north of the Awakening cave is still forested, where the temple sits wouldve been the natural site of Rauru's castle. After Ganondorf's sealing, BOTW's castle would be built to strengthen the seal and become the new ruling seat. This would fulfill the line about it being the birthplace of Hyrule (as this would be where Rauru and Sonia would have originally ruled the kingdom) and a place for ceremony (a new Temple of Time being built over the site of Rauru's castle to replace the Zonai temple).
the fact the Zonai and hylians worship Hylia, the fact the master sword is able to slay ganondorf, and the Rito existing all pointed to Raurus kingdom being established long after all the other games when I played through it.
from an employee and in game developer perspective, people who don't play the game don't interact to much with fans or their theories, I always assumed internally the first Hyrule Warriors was taken into account when planing Botw and, again from the perspective that Nintendo employees aren't looking to hard into it, have just operated on the idea that hyrule warriors was the point where the timeliness merged and just worked from there.
I believe that Rauru’s Hyrule is the third incarnation of the Kingdom of Hyrule. The first was founded after SS before TMC, the second incarnation was founded by Tetra and Link in WW/PT and after that the timelines merged with Hyrule Warriors and the War of Eras, sometimes after but before Rauru’s time, the kingdom fell again and wasn’t founded again until Rauru
I always felt that BOTW and TOTK took play WAYYYYY far in the future from the rest of the series (which was why everything from the past was almost myth), and that Rauru established a new kingdom after the fall of civilization in the land. It seems like the Zonai are some sort of extra-terrestrial beings that came upon the lands after they’d fallen into nothingness. But clearly there was some type of history of Hyrule before Rauru became the king, because there are various tribes of peoples with established cultures and feelings towards one another.
Rauru didn’t check hard enough
There is proof that the Zonai have legends of the previous hyrule in the depths, where you can find items from previous games
I’ve wanted to speak about the Depths for some time now, but I’m afraid I need more information before I feel comfortable doing that 😅
I played every console Zelda, huge Zelda fan, but I notice there are 2 types of extreme fans, those who care about the timeline and those who don’t, timeline doesn’t matter to me as I treat every Zelda like a new story all of its own, only Zelda 1&2 are directly linked, and OOT and Majora’s mask are directly linked, including Botw and TOTK, everything else is a story in its own… I like seeing the story linkage theories but other than that they are just entertainment to me
Awesome videos Wiz! I love this theory. Even if I personally fall into the "It's all legend" camp, the "merger theory" is cool, too, and one of the few that actually makes sense to me. Most of this stuff hadn't even occurred to me, so great job, both of you!
Thanks BPX! Good to see you outside of your company in a GS stream 🤗
@@wizcatcheslightning It's even cooler cuz I clicked on TaMV's video first, without realizing you were even on it! Showed up in my recommended, so, algorithm's working I guess! haha
@@BoyProdigyX Right on 😎
The quoted Source inspiration for breath of the Wild is Skyrim. A dragon break is 99% likely to have some effect on the thought process.
Fairy are giving clear indications that there's biological evolution, attempting to rule out a post Skyward Sword explanation.
Tears of the Kingdom reveals that all of the games had happened within that 10,000 year period of time and that it is the Legend of Zelda. They are going hard on the word Legend. Meaning all of the other games are interpretation of events.
So instead of a dragon break, they have a legend. The way the King Arthur story has been changed is also part of the franchise inspiration and in the Japanese attempt at continuity they are going back to that root.
The proof is in all the green glowing stomes. They cant not keep the color the same and change its function. Even between breath of the wild and tears of the Kingdom.. they added another material simply because they wanted to change the color around and needed an excuse. Prove me wrong
I like the theory that Rauru was sent to help strengthen the royal line, his sealing power in Zelda combining with Sonia time power. Your speculations lead me to believe that rauru and Sonia founded breath of the wild hyrule kingdom and his history has almost faded out over 10,000 years, I like to believe that all the Zelda game lore history are absolute and canon too.
This is a much more satisfying explanation, great video!
Glad you liked it! And thank you 😊
I have a nitpick, and it's not about the theory itself. It's about how you describe the 'Simple' Hylians.
Whilst they do seem to be technologically simple sure, the fact they have symbolic tattooing and Mesoamerican motifs is NOT an indicator of simplicity. So using Aztec to emphasize simplicity is simply inaccurate considering the advanced culture they had.
Also the ancient Hylians look Hellenistic with their togas but with the Aztec influence from cultural exchange with the Zonai, who are the advanced ones in this context.
Beyond that's it's a great video, and I will always look forward to more
I agree with those points! It’s really just the lack of tech continuing from SS that we mainly wanted to point out.
14:47 missed opportunity for a hinga dinga durgen
This makes a lot of sense to me but it does make the forgotten temple seem disconnected from skyward sword
it does have the loftwing statues and while hard to say how "canon" it is the goddess statue here gives you the goddess sword in totk so not necessarily
@Mentaclink it gives you infinite Goddess swords, doesn't really make any sense.
re: power level difference
Sonia says in a memory cutscene that Zelda has Light AND Time powers, so it might not be that Zelda is just more powerful, it's that she has twice the amount (type) of power Sonia has. But also; Zelda is the Sage of Time. It's not clear from the memory cutscenes exactly when she awoke as the Sage of Time, but right before Sonia's death, we see Zelda pretty easily manipulating time by rewinding the dagger back at the impostor-Zelda, and during the Imprisoning War she does it again when she rewinds all the other Sages' weapons back at Ganondorf (she's only shown struggling in this scene because it's at the end of a long battle against the Demon King; everyone else is exhausted, too, even Rauru)
Also there's that issue of us "not seeing" the Triforce in either BotW or TotK. Except...we DO see it. Zelda in both games is in possession of the full Triforce. BotW when she seals Calamity Ganon for the first time and then again when she destroys Calamity Ganon at the end of the game, and in TotK when she's shown healing the Master Sword; in all those scenes the full Triforce is shown on the back of her hand. So the fact that Zelda is in possession of the full Triforce + has both Light and Time powers + is the Sage of Time = she is UBER powerful even before [spoiler] happens
I'd also add the fact that placing TotK's past after SS would raise the question why the king in OoT would trust another Ganondorf, if they had a landscape altering (literally) Imprisoning War just a couple centuries earlier, with just such an individual, down to the same name? If records of this survived tens of millenia into the future and the royal family is in the know in general, I am sure a couple centuries after the Imprisoning War the king would very much know of these events.
It'd also beg the question what the deal is with Hyrule Castle; it was supposedly built to act as a safe guard for the seal, yet it was destroyed absolutely in OoT and later in TP (and if the kingdom crumbled in the Downfall Timeline, there was no castle at all).
Some may say it's a 2nd castle somewhere else, but... why? Why would the Hylians build two castles? Makes no sense to me. It only makes sense if all this happens long after any/all of the games of any/all timelines and a new castle is errected on the seal and stood until TotK's present.
It may not be as technical as you guys laid out your arguments, but I'd say those are smaller issues that you could put on top.
All in all, I am very much in agreement with both yours and Thinking's videos.
Glad to have you around, Tobi! Excellent points 😎
@@wizcatcheslightning Thank you for the kind words.
I usually don't like when people (myself included) make several comments under one video instead of accumulating everything in one comment, but I felt compelled to write down what I did after finishing the video.
Hope for more enlightening theories on the matter (if there is more to talk about)!
@@UltimateTobi it helps promote the video so I’m not complaining!
As far as theories, I’ll see what I can muster up 😅
I believe Rauru's time takes place before Skyward sword not after, but I will watch this to make sure of my theory. 😊
Speaking of Zelda being more Powerful then Sonia, if we take a look at King Rhoam's abilities in Age of Calamity, he seems to use a similar power in his attacks.
Good attention to detail there!
The depths I'm guessing is the old Hyrule.
As far as timeline placement, Aonuma confirmed BotW takes place so far in the future that previous games are irrelevant, so I'm inclined to believe the simplest explanation: TotK simply takes place at the founding of a new Hyrule sometime after the downfall of the classic one but before BotW.
Sonia directly says she senses Rauru's light power and her time power within Zelda, so I think she was more powerful than Sonia simply because she was descended from both of them.
But this does leave the major question of lineages unanswered. How could the tradition of naming matriarchs Zelda skip Sonia if she's the ancester of BotW Zelda? And if the Zonai were sky people living completely seperate of the Hylians, how did one of them inherit the name Rauru and become a new sage of light? Were they somehow influenced by Hylian history and don't even know it? How did the name for King Rhoam reenter the lineage?
It’s most likely me just forgetting but was there ever any confirmation that in the botw universe, the queens and princesses of Hyrule would be named Zelda? Cause as far as I’m concerned, we’re carrying over old knowledge assuming that this is still the case.
@@gentlemanbronco3246In Rhoam's journal in Hyrule Castle, he says he named his daughter Zelda in accordance with royal law.
It'd be one thing if events worked out so Zelda time traveled to meet her ancestors, and then inspired the name of their new child before returning back home. Still get the maternal figure, power training and such. Except major plot reasons cause that to not happen. Literally impossible. Whether or not Zelda's plotline is something you'd want to honor in a way that would relock in the royal princess Zelda name roll call law.
Hey Wiz~ I'm still not fully convinced about a refounding, but I've been opening up to the idea.
That said, I have one point to make about the “new” Hyrule Kingdom in Spirit Tracks. This quote comes from Anjean; I have the Japanese kana, a translation, and the English localization.
Kana:
うむ おぬしじゃよゼルダ姫おぬしら一族の故郷 はるか遠い地の古き王国ハイラル…その王家に代々受け継がれし聖なる力…
Translation:
“Indeed, it’s you, Princess Zelda. Your family line’s native land is the ancient and far away Kingdom of Hyrule… A sacred power has been inherited by its royal family for generations…”
Localization:
“A vessel from the royal line of ancient Hyrule, with sacred power coursing through its veins.”
Good stuff here, LH!! Thanks for sharing! I’ll jump back in that game eventually. I bought a copy of PH and ST a few months ago for like $150 😅
Hm, interesting. I think you both are right about timeline placement and I agree with a lot of the conclusions and evidence, though not all of your points fit together:
•You pointed out that the Hylian’s devolved to a tribal civilization, which would be impossible….except even with taking away the TotK past, the Hylian society still fall into a reverse with no sign of the high technology by the time of even Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and definitely not in the Fallen Timeline.
The best in technology we get after Skyward Sword are in Termina and New Hyrule. Point being, considering how often the Hylians regress after a disaster (see the Fallen Timeline), it is not impossible for the Hylians to regress so far into tribal society only to pick themselves back up with new leadership. In fact, Tears of the Kingdom tells this exact tale.
•The Forgotten Temple is insinuated to be the Temple of Hylia in Skyward Sword. That puts the original Temple of Time way, way out there into the Tanagar Canyon. That is very far removed from geographically and if we are gonna use architectural geographical evidence, such as the Sacred Grove’s Temple of Time being a reason why OoT’s Temple of Time no longer exists, then no sign of the Forgotten Temple should exist either being long buried under the ground. Right? Unless I simply misunderstand how ancient structures survive through time, which is entirely possible.
•The second Temple of Time in BotW may not have evidence of a connecting room, but it is a man-made structure. Refurbishment can easily patch up evidence of an extra room ever being in there in the thousands of years the Temple has stood. I think a better piece of evidence is the Temple’s decline in Twilight Princess on top of it being completely missing in the other two timelines, likely because of the Flood and the original Imprisoning War/sealing of Ganon making it’s destruction imminent.
•This last one is actually a supporting point.
Rauru has also been characterized similarly to a young man moreso than a wise king based on texts clarifying him to abandoning his duties in favor going hunting, with Sonia being the one to make sure to get him back and being the one partnering with him in creating the new Shrines. This presumes Rauru to be a very unreliable source of information in regards to how things work in the world of Hyrule, supported by the fact that Mineru is who he defers to for knowledge about his own people.
Great points here 😎
Crazy Idea; TOTK takes place before Demise and the only male of the Geurdo become connected. Ganondorf of OOT is named after Ganondorf of TOTK. Tears-Ganondorf is remembered as a "glourious" leader who was defeated in battle by the Sages. Then, OOT-Ganondorf is born much much later and he has the triforce of power; but the guy he was named after never had access to the triforce of power.
there is a huge problem is that there are two master swords:
- one from the future which Rauru learns about (he doesnt know that the sword already existed during his times)
-the "original" master sword which was lost over time but this one has to be found again to later become the one used in BotW
Why is that a problem?
@@tandord491 because the "real" master sword was lost & forgotten
so how was it found again?
@@hokton8555 There's only one Master Sword, even in the events on both BoW and TotK, is the same sword just existing twice in the same space-time continium. It doesn't matter if they are 2 swords at the same time, the sword has its own timelime. its own past. From the Master Sword perspective comes from the Timeline Merge existed for thounsands of years, got in to our new link hands, got destroyed by Mummie Ganondorf, when back in time to ended up in link's hands again. Is the same thing with this Zelda.
@@tandord491 you got me wrong
Im not talking about this
Im talking about that the master sword was lost & forgotten. rauru didn't know about it. So how was this recovered?
@@hokton8555 Oh got ya!!!, well you are right!! I guess the sword eventually reaches the spirit of the hero, One way of other it doesn't need the intervention of the royal family. Considering that in this new timeline people doesn't even speak of the Triforce, some key elements were lost in time. Like... Ganondorf is not looking for the Triforce, he was looking for the power of the secret stones and is a time lapse of 10 000 years nobody is looking or even mentioning the Triforce.
This was exactly what I thought was happening. Nintendo stated awhile back that BOTW takes place so far in the future, that the previous games don't really affect it that much. So what is stated in this video makes the most sense, thank you for finally saying it.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Glad you enjoyed it.
Another classic Wiz W 😎 Good watch. Gave Thinking At Max Volume a sub as well! Great collab.
Glad to see you here, Gossip 😎
A little late to the party on this one but its also worth thinking about the fact that the Secret Stones specifically amplify the inherent power of the user. In this instance, Ganondorf amplified the latent power inside of himself which manifested in him becoming The Demon King. Which makes sense if you consider that Ganondorf is the fulfillment of the Curse of Demise placed on the blood of the Hero and the reincarnation of Hylia. It makes total sense that his power comes from a small amount of Demise' power inside of him which, when amplified with a Secret Stone would result in, well, The Demon King, or at least an approximation of him, which I think is a fair way to describe Demon King Ganondorf. All of which only works if this all happened after Skyward Sword.
The *only* fair alternative i can think of would be that maybe the realm we fought Demise in exists outside of time so the effects of the curse extend in every direction through time in a 4D way, but thats a bit much to think about right now.
I completely agree with you and talk about this in my timeline video.
I’m not sure if everyone realizes Zelda is using the light stone not the time stone gannondorf has the time stone Zelda’s time powers are her own, and the light stone is amplifying them. The reason she appears stronger is because she is, she has both powers, whereas, Sonia and Rauru have only one.
While I want to agree with what you’re saying, I’m going to refer back to Mineru when she says that a secret stone brings out an individual’s essence and it doesn’t grant specific powers. Secret stones are neutral. When Ganondorf killed Sonia, he didn’t get Sonia’s time magic from her secret stone. Instead the stone changes its kanji, and it brings out his essence, which in the case of this game, is darkness.
The stones don't have a specific power. The person wielding the stone does.
@@wizcatcheslightning They also specify in the dialogue that although zelda has both light and time powers within her, the stone is enhancing her time powers, which allowed her to travel through time the way she did.
Zelda has sealing and time powers. Her power looks like Sonia and Rauru's powers when she lends it to him.
Also, while it is not address by the games, Zelda should have the triforce if we are to trust the stigma on the back of her hand when she does magic. If this theory is true, the stone may help zelda to use the triforce.
One theory of mine is that the Secret Stones are fragments of the Triforce and they came to be as a result of the Triforce breaking for good from merging the three timelines into one.
Probably the Tri-Force of power to prevent Ganondorf from gaining power. Since the one of wisdom is still in the Zelda bloodline, and the courage is unknown.
I keep bringing this up on different vids but, one of the things that sticks out to me in the game itself as evidence are the worn-down sage statues that surround the lotus where the Secret Stones are kept. They resemble the ones found around the Master Sword, and also vaguely resemble the silhouettes of the Ocarina of Time sages. Whoever made those knew of that history, and therefore it places OoT in the past of TotK's past (the statues are already there in the flashback to the TotK Sages receiving their stones).
It's probably some universe/link-between-worlds/time-travel mechanism that allowed the timelines to communicate with eachother in some form.
Once that occurred, whomever obtained the complete triforce through all of chaos between timelines wished for all timelines to merge and the civilization to start anew albeit not perfectly which is why we have aspects from all timelines in the newer games(buildings, geographic locations, ect) but the citizens start anew in this constructed world(which are all just variations of itself because the land of hyrule is the same in all timelines).
The Master Sword can only be present in one instance at any given time though, and the hero is necessary to utilize such sword,(otherwise another type of sword is probably made for a hero) so it probably has some time/timeline/universe travel aspect going on.
Be noted, there can be multiple triforces in existence - this is proven in A Link Between Worlds so this is very possible.
Additionally, I think hylia(Zelda) would be exempt from this clearly with the spirit of the hero, and Demise's malice incarnation as well and would survive such a merger and not be hindered by such limitations.
Hyrule would be "founded"(again) for as many times as necessary considering the circumstances in such a land.
A simple example of this is placement of the "Kingdom of Hyrule" from Minish Cap. This entire "Kingdom" can be found on a small section in the northeast part of the BOTW/TOTK hyrule map. You can map the entire game's(minish cap) geography there, and it is a tiny area(but it fits perfectly in line with minish caps map).
Also consider that Minish Cap is one of the EARLIEST kingdoms of Hyrule and there is little to no evidence of such a castle of town existing by this point in said area in BOTW/TOTK, maybe due to geological activity in the area considering it's right next to death mountain and various types of land, BUT IT IS THERE and matches up perfectly with said game.
Additionally, I think you're correct regarding speculation of Zonai Rauru "founding" a Kingdom of Hyrule, yes, a singular one, one of many that have been "founded" and "established" over the ages within timelines and time-frames.
Here's ny TOTK map, with Minish Cap locations marked. Im sure you get the idea here. Markings may not be 100% accurate, as geography is now 10000+ years old.
Imgur here: imgur.com/a/YJSNiS2
Thanks for sharing! Love the map!
Hyrule being destroyed is canon, in wind waker a wish is made using the triforce by the king for that to happen. The hyrule founded after that in spirit tracks is actually called new hyrule not hyrule. Hyrule might be adjacent to it under the ocean still, the deku tree and koroks are actively trying to drain the sea in wind waker so I think the current hyrule is founded after the koroks finish their mission.
That isn't the mission of the Koroks, they simply are trying to connect the islands through planting trees to grow into a forest. We don't know if this is meant to be by draining the waters somehow (as you are assuming) or if the nature of the trees is such that they can expand the land they are planted on. If it is meant to drain the waters, then it isn't so much as connecting the islands as it is bringing back old Hyrule (and this flies in the face of the theme of WW's story).
@@philosophicaljay3449 the koroks connected the islands and is the result is current botw/totk hyrule. the depths is where og hyrule is, its why we see poes, oot soldier ghosts and all the og link outfits down there
It does make more sense that this is not THE Hyrule, but A NEW Hyurle. We've already seen Hyrule fall apart before in older games like Wind Waker, and we have seen implications that there are other lands outside of Hyrule. So it only makes sense that Hyrule fell once again and BotW and TotK are about the new hyrule
Oh yes, I can very much relate to that. I've played TLoZ ever since ALttP (mainly watched my bro play, but still) released when I was a wee lad and really got into it when I was 7 when OoT released.
I think we are around the same age 😅
@@wizcatcheslightning Born '91!
@@UltimateTobi ...we're the same demographic! 93 for me til infinity 😎
Very interesting take on all of this, love the detailed timeline graphics and explanations of differences between the timelines and why things land where.
Thank you! Hope you enjoyed TAMV’s video as well
@@wizcatcheslightning I did, both are so well thought out and presented. Looking forward to more from both of you. The Christopher Columbus reference was great in this series of videos, that and the evolution of Gerudo ears.
@@WildflowersCreations well, double thanks for that feedback!
I still don't understand were the Zoni came from if the Skyward Sword hylians never meet them in the Sky. I thought maybe the Zoni were the ancient skyloftians evolved in to goat wizards with magic stones. 😅
Also it seems Zelda possess all 3 triforce peices in botw when she uses them to finish Ganon off. That's why no one can poses them. There in Zelda.
Check out my god tribe video for some preliminary info about the Zonai. I’ll do a follow up eventually 😉
I mean, the Skyloftians also never met the Oocca that occupied the sky and are said to have helped create Hyrule, so I don't see why it is an issue that the Zonai also were in the sky (in fact, I think it is reasonable to connect the Oocca to the Zonai in some way).
The key to understanding where Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are on the timeline is the Master Sword. Not only does Zelda acknowledge the sword as "her" as in Fi being the Master Sword, but the fact that Zelda and the Master Sword travelled back in time for over at least 10 000 years makes it impossible for her to have travelled to any point before the era of Hylia Zelda in Skyward Sword. Because if she did, she would have been present as the Light Dragon in every single Zelda game. With the Master Sword.
The serious implications of this would be that there are now two Master Swords present in every game, which would complicate the story of those games even further and the entire timeline. It also doesn't make sense for Rauru from TotK to have been the original founder of the very first Hyrule when we know for a fact that Skyward Sword is the first The Legend of Zelda game on the timeline with the first Zelda. The one Zelda mind you who acknowledges herself as being the literal goddess Hylia and not just having the blood of Hylia like her descendants.
Hylia is the original mother of the Zelda bloodline (an established fact), so Sonia can only be a part of that long chain if her claims to have blood relations with Zelda are correct. Hylia in the story of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom is a separate entity from both Sonia and Zelda, but Zelda is the only one who has Hylia's power of Light while Sonia has only the power of Time. That would also explain why Sonia is not called Zelda, because she doesn't possess the power to seal the darkness, but her power of Time at least would explain why Zelda possesses it too by being blood related.
The bigger question that should be asked is not where these games are placed on the timeline (they can only be placed dead last to be able to make sense with all the references to previous games and different timelines), but why Rauru specifically has the power of Light and not Sonia? He and his people are clearly not from this world by having literally descended from the sky to bestow their powers and wisdom to the people of Hyrule. My only explanation for this peculiarity is that the Zonai originate from the same land that the old gods come from. It would at least explain why Rauru is able to wield the power to seal the darkness that Hylia's bloodline possess.
Also notice the strange lack of the Triforce in Sonia's and Rauru's era. The Triforce was the most well known and sought after artifact during the time of Skyward Sword with the entire prologue being centred around Demise and the Demons trying to conquer the surface world to obtain this power. If this was before Skyward Sword, then the Triforce would have been very much relevant for Ganondorf/Ganon to obtain during Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Not to mention that Ganondorf/Ganon is a direct result of the Curse of Demise, so having Ganondorf/Ganon come before Demise is just beyond silly.
Finally, it would be very odd for Nintendo to retcon the game that they themselves pushed as being the first game in the timeline when making the next two games that were likely made by the same people. It just doesn't add up however way you slice it.
@deldante That's the thing, she wasn't up there. All of the dragons come from underground. In Breath of the Wild they created portals to get down into the underground and in Tears of the Kingdom you can actually see them in the Depths when they aren't on the surface. In the very first scene when the Light Dragon appears it breaks the clouds from below, meaning that Zelda was in the Depths for thousands of years until it was time for her to deliver the Master Sword to Link.
No, it isn't possible. Impossible even. Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time is the first Ganondorf on the timeline. Tears of the Kingdom Ganondorf just does not fit within the timeline of the older games. He can't exist before Skyward Sword as previously pointed out about Demise and he can't exist within the time of the other games, since the Ganondorf in those games is Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time with Ganon being either that version transformed or a resurrected clone.
This Ganondorf is a brand new reincarnation with no established connections to the previous Ganondorf appearances. Trying to force a puzzle piece where it doesn't belong just leads to more complications with discussing the timeline.
I agree. The merger happened in Hyrule Warriors. Not everything went back where it was supposed to be.
Hyrule Warriors isn’t canon, so that’s not possible.
The main reason I think TOTK's memories can't take place before OoT is, that would mean that Dehydrated Ganondorf would exist in all 3 timelines, and he doesn't. I've seen two theories that make sense. First is this one (the memories take place in a new Hyrule that Rauru founded after the old Hyrule fell). The other is creative and states that Zelda going back in time changed history and that's what truly created the Downfall Timeline (meaning Dehydrated Ganondorf only exists in that timeline). I don't know which I prefer yet. But BOTW/TOTK are DEFINITELY either in a merged timeline, or the Downfall timeline.
What theory was that and by whom? I’ll check it out!
@@wizcatcheslightningThis video by wazoomo is pretty long but does a good job of explaining that theory: ua-cam.com/video/BvBUACaL0d0/v-deo.html
not quite on topic, but _Skyward Sword,_ in addition to being about Link searching for Zelda, forging the Master Sword, and defeating Demise, should’ve also been about Link and Zelda uniting the various peoples of the land and sky and founding Hyrule.
also, Links role in the story should’ve been 100% his choice, and not something he was destined or chosen to do by someone else…Hylia and Demise would’ve been locked in an endless stale mate of good vs evil, but Link chose to intervene and tip the scales towards good, with this paradigm rhyming and resonating through the ages and subsequent games.
I never thought I would be open to a SS rewrite, outside of some of the flawed time travel, but this would be it!
Has @16:42 been physically mapped? That small lake and a tree in the middle, and whatever that structure is to the left. You know, with the whole Rauru's Kingdom being on the Great Plateau. Not sure the ruins of the Temple of Time match that of Rauru's Temple.. And no one considers how the Great Sky island aren't directly on top of the Plateau.
It's more likely that Hylians built it (ANOTHER Temple) during the many years after the Zonai disappeared. Doesn't it have similar architecture to that of Hyrule Castle? Considering @19:24 the architecture is much too similar to that of Shrines and nothing like current construction.
(Looking at that glass window @19:35 in more detail would also be interesting.. seeing as how there are 3 squares (Secret Stones)? That are definitely not Triangles)
Aaaanyway, and something I consider even more intriguing.. Where the hell did the Master Sword came from!? Fi is definitely in it! Did Hylia definitely make it and Skyward definitely happened? Because the omission of this monumental detail would explain a LOT of things! But it's more likely that Nintendo simply HAD to have it in the game.
Im so happy that I found this channel! I do love TOTK story and the story and characters themselves are amazing. Problem is that the way they delievered the story and how they didnt explain much is what creates the problem in TOTK. For example: Why would Rauru make a truce with Ganondorf in the first place. Would it war be of a better option? The game quite frankly gives us hints.
Rauru is hubiris in nature and he would avoid any conflict at all cost, because 1. Ganon has a political power, and there are people whom side with him like some of the Geurodo and maybe even Hylians. Because remember, most Tribes before the Zonai begets their blessing to them only fought for courage and power. They werent at peace and benefited greatly to kill one another. The Zonai came in with heir knowledge to unite some of these tribes and make them one, as well as to get them out of this primitive state they had. It is why Ganondorf have such a malice intention against the Kingdom, because he benefited from all these wars. And 2. The game does have a very poor cohesiveness interms of time, because at minimum, Zelda lived within the past for at least 2 to 5 years. And even more. The reason I think that because there is in no way shape or form, that Ganondorf did all his truce with Rauru in about a day, nor the war between Ganon and Rauru lasted for like an hour. The story shouldve instead shown WHY Rauru made the truce with Ganondorf, and why it was the better solution because it will create major disturbance within the Kingdom itself. Not all tribes obey him afterall. Not to mention that there are two types of Geurodos. Like the Sage Geurodo and those whom followed her, and the Geurodo whom followed at the footsteps of Ganondorf. But the game only shows the aftermath or scenes that are great and amazingly well done, like Sonia and Zelda, but it isnt enough, we need more of it. Two examples is, again, Ganon betraying the young Kingdom and assasinating the Queen of Hyrule, Sonia. They only show the aftermath of Rauru's decision, which is a bad thing. The game shouldve shown us the benefits of why Rauru done that, even having a time skip between the swearing fealty and the assasination cutscene to also give us a meaningful time frame and a meaningful reason. You cant just go directly killing someone after making a truce. There must be a time frame between the events. Not to mention that Rauru saying the line of "it would be easier to keep an eye on him" inplies that Ganondorf does indeed have a lot of upper uand in political power, but once he accepts the truce Rauru granted to him, he cannot just break it and let all the tribes know how awful he is. Rauru made a good decision, but the game demonstrated poorly to the point that it paints Rauru as a bad leader. Again, dont show us the aftermath, but show us the inbetween and why Rauru made this decision.
The timeframe between the memories are disjointed and give us no information of the benefits of the decisions Rauru made.
The second example is Queen Sonia of Hyrule and Zelda speaking and talking to eachother. It is probably the best cutscene and honestly, Queen Sonia is my favourite character of all time now. She is an amazing character... and the reason why is because she showed her character to Zelda. In the cutscene where they are drinking tea, she was caring like the mother she never had. She deeply cared for Zelda and wanted her the best. She felt as if it was her daughter, which makes it all the more wholesome. It showed her dynamic between Rauru and Zelda so beautifully, but alas, the problem is that we do not see more. We need more characterization of these characters. We need more time to spent with them to feel for them. And to feel what Zelda feels. We. Need. More. Story.
You see the problem? Botw's method of storytelling worked, because you also had enviromental storytelling as well as the memories being very simple and not intricate, which also gives a cohesive timeframe. Tears of the Kingdoms story however is more complex and intricate, and the environmental storytelling is very little compared to Botw. But the biggest issue is that Botw method of storytelling interms of memories DOES NOT work in TOTK. The story has more stakes, more intricacy and needs more time to flesh out and establishing a time frame. And again, decisions that shouldve been elaborated further to justify them and see their benefit are left out in the air, like Rauru's truce. I forgot to also say that we need to see more of Rauru's hubiris nature, because again, the story itself is good but what they showed is not enough. You cannot leave the story with no information and only giving scarce hints. You need to flesh it out. Botw method doesnt work, but if you want to do this type of storytelling, you have to approach from a Dark Soul/Elden Ring type of storytelling, which is making a world that is filled with item descriptions, environmental storytelling and indirect means. Which Elden Ring maatered it to the point that I call it a love letter game for Literature.
At last, thanks for reading my stupid essay. I loved the story of TOTK but the worldbuiling is very flawed as well as the way they delivered the story. Such a missed potential to make these characters interact with Link, like making Queen Sonia of Hyrule talking to us on the surface, Mineru in the Depth and Rauru in the Skies. These characters are amazing and Nintendo need to put more effort into their stories. We just need more.
Thanks for watching as well as taking the time to write this! Loved reading what you had to say, and I completely agree with your outlook on the story.
@@wizcatcheslightning Thanks man! I actually never thought that you would read and respond to me! Thanks so much! This means a lot to me!
I do have plenty to say about the story, but I think I will leave it here for now. I do plan on making a channel to make lore videos and taking a more of a literary look unto TOTK and the Zelda series as a whole as well as providing criticism and such. I still don have a good mic and Im mostly now done with the script of me critiquinf Tears of The Kingdom. After I finish that, again, I will be going into lore stuff. But thanks so much! This means a lot to me!
Edit: I really cant wait more videos from you. I totally agree with you and the convergence theory. Your videos are entertaining because they are quite cohesive and explain things straight and simple. I really cant wait for more!
@@AndrewThePoet you bet 😎
If you have questions about your channel, don’t hesitate to reach out. Audio quality is definitely important (look at my older stuff) 😉
@@wizcatcheslightning Alrighty! My sincerest thanks! It is my first time going to do this! Im a bit nervous but I cannot wait. Though, Im at my holiday right now and I dont have my computer at the moment. My holiday will be done at around 20 ort 21st of August. But I will have quite a lot of questions about editing because Im very inexperienced. But thanks so much! I would love to also discuss some lore stuff with you too! If you have a discord server, I may join it as well!
@@wizcatcheslightning It is truly my honour! Thanks so much! I really cant wait to actually do content!
Here is my username too: andrewabigail
Great video wiz!! Here for the algorithm!
I appreciate that 🤗
I'm more of a casual Zelda fan. I played the first Zelda on the NES and the one on the Super NES when I was a kid but I haven't played any of the other games until BotW. I just finished TotK, and I feel like I missed so much lore. This video was amazing. It is fun and well put together. Thank you guys. I have subscribed and look forward to more videos from you both.
Thanks Joshua! Glad you enjoyed it 😎
I honestly thought this version of it was the absolutely right answer implied by the story as it was given to us. There were even hints that history is difficult to get right even with direct connections to the past as the Rito, Zora, Goron and Gerudo have no clue about their ancestral temples or their founding mission thousands of years later. Then there is the Shieka tech fiasco of suddenly going from sci-fi levels of tech to high fantasy
I'm damn near 50... been exploring the lands of hyrule for longer than alot of folks watching this video have been alive... personally, i don't really care if botw and tears are rebooting the time line... it was a damn mess anyway... besides, these are all just legend, a myth... like religion there's a ton that doesn't add up, but that's ok, it doesnt need to. Just one old man's opinion.
Thank you for your service 🫡
@@wizcatcheslightning happy to have served fellow soldier... 🫡
We can clearly see Zonai technology and references in Skyward sword... But Ganondorf NEVER existed before Demise swore vengeance on Link. That's the paradox I need an explanation for...
The Zonai can exist before Ganondorf without contradicting the timeline placement we made.
@@wizcatcheslightning But Demise is the real demon king, before any incarnations. Hylia rose the lands for the hylians because Demise made sure to get all opposing factions stinct, including Zonai. And it was them who descended to more triballistic Hylians than the one on Skyloft as you said.
@@REALmyenemy yes. And that doesn’t contradict the prologue or the events of Skyward Sword whatsoever.
@@wizcatcheslightning But TotK's.
Zonai completely perished to Demise, which happens before any Ganondorf.
How can Zonai even have met a Ganondorf?
Did some get dragged along on the sky islands and stay kind of frozen in time or something?
@@REALmyenemy we don’t know how the Zonai perished, so that would be speculation that it was at the hands of Demise. I’ll make a video about them eventually.
THANK YOU! I have been saying this for months, i thought this was pretty obvious, but not everyone agrees i guess. Lol
You’re welcome! Yeah, it’s quite the uphill battle 😅
One viewer at a time I suppose! The support this last month has been humbling and positive 🤗
i do agree with the notion that placing totk's "past" inbetween the old timeline somewhere doesnt really work, and if we're assuming/ going with the idea that it's not a soft reboot (which i do think is fair since totk and botw seem to have quite a bit of skyword sword bits and references) placing it at the end of everything still creates a lot of questions and potential issues
like where is the master sword, how can they enter the zonai structure inside the forgotton temple if the hylia statue is in the way etc etc
but i do wonder, whats the potential issues with placing totk past *before* skyword sword? its a little odd but i'd like to know actual reasons why that wouldnt work, maybe there are none and it does work, who knows
obviously no matter what you do with theories it will probably not work out that well since zelda as a series isnt very good with timelines or connected lore, like, at all. they make it p clear that they prefer focusing on making a good game instead of worrying about potential lore discrepancies, and the fact that they retconned their own official timeline so many times just reinforces that
So I would encourage you to watch my previous video if you haven’t already. Other than my Fi point, you can use the other points I made to mostly disprove the before SS placement of TOTK’s past.
Tbh it's not really a lie per se. But just the kingdom was lost to time and then reborn sometime later right after a new evil was also birthed by destiny.
I’ll admit that my title was fueled by chagrin 😅
This is what I came to the conclusion of when I first heard Rauru say he was the first king and you guys just made such a good case for it.
Thanks!
The part that I'm curious about with the timeline is "What was the event that caused 3 separate timelines to merge"?
There's no way three completely separate timelines with radically different events all lead to a single point, since then there'd be 3 different histories to Breath of the wild & TotK.
However, these games seem to have.. hints, that all three of the timeline's histories have all happened.. despite the fact that it's three different parallel worlds separated by a clear dimension. This probably means that the merging of the timelines wasn't something that happened naturally, but rather some kind of divine intervention that smooshed the three histories together and possibly resulted in not just the destruction of Hyrule, but regressed the hylians to such a tribal state.
I mean, Imagine a history where hyrule just gets obliterated by two separate disasters.. is abandoned by a portion of, or the entirety of the Royal family to start a new kingdom on another land, because the current Hyrule was impossible for them to recover.. leaving a large majority of the Hylian citizens to fend for themselves. Perhaps at some point, New Hyrule is destroyed beyond repair, and the royal family comes back to hyrule to recolonize it, only to find the remains of the Zonai? This.. comment has definitely spiraled far too off track, but I honestly would like to see a game about the convergence of timelines, perhaps a "final" wish is made with the triforce that causes it to shatter that merges the 3 timelines. Perhaps the final boss of that game could take place after this happens, since it doesn't make sense that the royal family or the hero would make such a wish, or even be aware of time travel outside the legend of the hero of time.
Not going to count hyrule warriors as a means of "merging the timelines."
Well it would be within the realm of Japanese games where you end up having to kill God. So maybe they’ll release a game where tada you gotta fight the goddesses and make the merge
Absurdly long timeskips and tital societal collapses are truly the duct tape that holds the Zelda timeline together.
Breath of the Wild alread threw in a casual 10,000 year gap since between game start and the last time Ganon got beat down by sheikah tech. With an indeterminate amount of time between that and the timeline merger point. What's another collapse back to the stone age, mass forgetting, and refounding wedged into that gap. Still pretty impressive that New Hyrule has over 10k years of continuity.
With enough mental gymnastics ToTK can go anywhere, but the merged refounding of Hyrule makes sense, narratively and for devs wanting to simplify their lore. I saw one recently that placed ToTK's Zonai past adjacent with OoT into the leadup to the Downfall timeline. Basically stating that Zelda going to the past caused the original imprisoning war to lead to Rauru's and Ganondorf's sealing being the catalyst of the downfall timeline. Its absolutely insane and has way too many reaches, but its still a fun thing to think about. The channel who made it was Wazoomo, if you have an hour to kill its a good time.
Good to see you again, Cato! And I appreciate the recommendation as well 🤗
Of course there are many plot holes. But It's canon botw happens long after every game, and that's the reason there are some ruins from the ocarina temple of time, but when zonai Rauru shows up there are no ruins, in fact he builds his temple of time at the same spot as ocarina's temple.... So Zonai Rauru kingdom comes much before every game, even before the master sword and the triforce. His remains raise up to the sky and Hyrule story begins.
Nintendo was really lazy with the writing this time...
much to ponder, this was an inspiring video
Right on 😎
Love how fans are making the timeline make more sense then Nintendo
I consider this to be a lot of cope from people who don't want to accept Nintendo doesnt really care about lore if it gets it the way of fun. The references are fun and I think they're just the product of a new hyrule the new zelda games can be based in
@@MrFRNTIKcan't blame the fans when Nintendo would reiterate where each game was in the connected lore each time until the newest two.
@@amandaslough125Facts.
Womp womp
They confirmed this is the first Hyrule and that the memories take place right after Skyward Sword
@@cybersoul2809 🤣 no they didn’t
I think with Rauru being a repeated name, this is a retroactive reboot to make you think his influence was there all along and that oot rauru was named after him. Like the 3 eyes of the sheikah and them maybe being descended from the zonai with how the ancient blades function identically to the ancient arrows of botw. Tears of the kingdom doesn't feel like a true story of beginnings to me, it seems like they're closing the book with a little bow. Mineru and Rauru are the last of [pure] zonai but we know Zelda is part zonai (her dragon form's ears actually look pretty zonai with how the fur covers the tops of them and fold just like rauru's). Very weird of them to not show Sonia's kid running around in the background or something, like it doesn't seem like they even have kid(s). Sonia has to be of hylia's descent but she isn't named Zelda, presumably, no one has been named Zelda for awhile for them to not recognize the name.
It's hard to make sense of it through any other lens that's not a reboot. "Everything before now were just stories and legends" meaning that details in past games could've been wrong or are now inaccurate. Unless the picori evolved into the blupees there's only proof that they have been replaced. The Hyrule Historia isn't consistent either, they change stuff up every now and then, they're bound to make a new installment that places this game somewhere in "the timeline"
I still think it happens before SS backstory
The burden of proof would be on you to explain how that happens. I’m all for it, but I’m not convinced.
i gotta say, originally i believed that rauru's and sonia's hyrule was after skyward sword, but after this video? youve convinced me that it takes place long long after. well done!
Thanks! Be sure to watch the companion video as well 😉
I feel bad for calling you pretentious now, you're fighting the good fight by killing this fan misconception.
Think of my comment calling you pretentious more of a playful tease of the overly nerdy/brainy quirk your videos have, rather than an attack on your character :) I really like your theories.
What changed your mind? 😅
And you know what? It’s water under the bridge. My focus with Zelda theories has been trying to get the community to talk more about things in a way that’s not disparaging. Disagreements allow for us all to get closer to the truth. So thanks for coming back 🤗
@@wizcatcheslightning Your reply taking into consideration feedback made you seem more introspective.
To add to your theory. The BOTW Temple of Time is in pristine condition 100 years ago in AOC, making it newer than the OoT/TP Temple of Time in ruins.
Zelda Encyclopedia states that OoT Ganondorf was the first and explicitly not born between SS, MC, and FS.
And finaly TOTK states its version of Hyrule Castle was undamaged for eons in Gandorf's profile and a monument beneath the castle, while the OoT and TP castles were clearly damaged.
@@Luxembourgish right on 😎
Also, I appreciate this info! This theory is definitely still upstream within the community, so every supportive detail helps haha
@@wizcatcheslightning Yo Wiz, just so you know a new Famitsu interview has the devs say Hyrule Kingdom may have been destroyed before Rauru founded his kingdom, use this information and *crush* the dissenters >:D
@@Luxembourgish I’ll check that article out. Thanks! 🫡
Me personally, I would think the past portion of TOTK would take place maybe 50 or so years after Skyward Sword, then the rest of the timeline would unfold from there.
It seems to me that after The Imprisioning War before Zelda fucked it up, that who else founded Hyrule afterwards was ordered to cover up any Zonai devices and architecture. I think that would totally make sense considering how much they were really a mystery in BOTW, and how long the original Ganondorf was really kept underground.
I also believe that since Tears Ganon was presumed dead by fate that the other incarnations of him popped up that way, but suddenly stopped around the time the Great Calamity happened 10,000 years prior to BOTW. Probably rounding up the whole timeline spanning over 25,000 years, but Idk, that’s just what I’m thinking.
Chronologically, I think the events of past TOTK would make more sense if it weren’t for Zelda and Link’s intervention of the seal beneath Hyrule Castle. Especially Zelda cuz I doubt that last mural would’ve been what it was had Zelda not picked up that time stone.
I decided to add my own head cannon to the events in order to look past the inconsistencies. With the Tri-Force being made up of 3 triangles, the middle of the symbol leaves a hole in the form of a fourth triangle. Think of each timeline as one of those triangles.
This timeline merges aspects from the other timelines, but rather than being part of any specific timeline, its actually a whole new timeline.
If you think of the main timelines like continents, this timeline is like an island collecting coastal debris.
Why?
Because time travel creates paradoxes (paradoxes also need to exist for time travel to be possible, at least, time travel to the past). Paradoxes are messy, like trash, and can destroy timelines. So, the timeline goes on to correct itself and throws this trash out (not saying this game is trash, I actually like BOTW and TOTK), that trash ends up as this timeline.
This is the paradox timeline. The missing triangle in the triforce, the triangle that can't exist without throwing the other timelines out of balance. If the balance and cycle of destruction, regroth, and prosperity are to continue, this timeline exists to hold the scale...
Or maybe Ive just been watching too much Loki. IDK. I always try to add deeper lore to things as a means to ignore inconsistencies, (especially when there tends to be different witers, developers, programers or whatnot) otherwise I nit pick it too much and ruin the experience.
In BOTW, it’s said a dragon split the Dueling Peaks, and in the background of one of the cutscenes you mentioned, the Dueling Peaks is still in one piece in Rauru’s time. If TOTK came after the timeline convergence as you theorized, then the Dueling Peaks you see in the OG LOZ would have to be re-smooshed together and then re-separated by a dragon later.
Remember how they said ten thousand years I was doing some research I looked in to ten thousand years it means multiple things. 10,000 Wan is used in Chinese to express “the biggest number of possible” (hence, uttering “10,000 years!” to express the wish someone a long life). But I have to keep doing more research on it because I’m not a expert in the Chinese language
Interesting stuff here!
Though, I do think the Wish in LttP could have merged the timelines (bringing people back from the dead - wishing to reverse everything Ganon did), I do find this theory viable too.
Plus I think you mention prior that Creating a Champion said no male Gerudo has been born since the one causing the Calamity? Urbosa herself says that Ganon once took the form of a Gerudo - but I've not sat down with CaC yet.
Definitely agree with this timeline placement, putting it right after SS just leaves too many inconsistencies. The existence of a new Ganondorf pretty much confirms it as well, if ToTK's past took place where people were thinking OOT and 4 Swords Adventure Ganondorfs couldn't exist since there would still be an incarnation of Demises Hatred existing under the castle; leading to no more male Gerudo's like what was mentioned in BoTW.
I feel like the zonai are the reason for the convergence, the 2 things we vaguely know because of the 2 most recent games, are that the zonai came down at some point for some reason, and there is evidence of all 3 timelines suggesting a convergence, I don't think they are 2 separate mysteries, and probably the 3 zonai who turned into the 3 dragons had something to do with the timelines converging, maybe why the triforce isn't really around too, like some ritual the zonai did Involvong the triforce and the sacred stones bringing the three timelines together. Then they leave because that's what they came to do, technically windwaker explains the depths the koroks are supposed to grow and cover the water making a new land, it's an actual plan the great deku tree is in the process of doing in that game, but will take a long time to do. maybe the depths are the original hyrule from most games but combining the timelines brought the land from windwaker the koroks made, and why the zonai are in the depths are to mine all the stuff left from older kingdoms because they didn't know one of the timelines had a flood and new land above.
Not sure if I like it better to have Hyrule be annihilated and forgotten completely so Zonai-Rauru could create it anew or trying to fit all together to make sense with the already chaotic timeline I know and love. However, assuming Hyrule as we knew it before BotW was lost in time after (almost) complete annihilation this would also help understand why no one got suspicious when A Gerudo King called Ganondorf appeared? As a king I would immediately try to get rid of this Ganondorf knowing the history that another (or multiple other) Ganondorf(s) throughout history always tried to dye the world in blood and chaos.
I am sure though I'd like to know where the Zonai origin from but also wish BotW and TotK wouldn't exist and be just a nightmare.
If I wanted to fit in BotW/TotK Hyrule though I would do it like this:
Demise is destroyed in the present by Links wish leads to the timeline where Zonai-Rauru establishes Hyrule.
Demise is killed by Link in the past, after Ghirahim abducts Zelda to sacrifice her leads to the Minish Cap timeline.
Anyway, what I would love though is if Nintendo would establish the Twili as a mainstay civilization next (although I firmly believe the Twili were actually inspired by Veran of Oracle of Ages, which would make Capcom indirectly the creator of the Twili. It's a couple years earlier after all and the similarities to Twili are obvious enough to me, maybe even Onox below his Armor looks like a Twili) to Hyrule like the Gorons and Zora. And the Picori and Deku Scrubs would return as well.
It's funny though, Ocarina of Time introduced the Gerudo as a mainstay (though chronologically didn't Minish Cap also have some Gerudo? Not sure, would need to check more), Wind Waker introduced the Rito as a mainstay civilization and Breath of the Wild made the Shiekah a stable (and the Yiga as a side effect) that is more than just 1 or 2 plot related persons so I count that as a mainstay introduction. Maybe I can hope that the next Zelda would establish another mainstay civilization that hasn't appeared often so far as well. Maybe it could even be the Twili (would you say they have a higher chance for that than others? Since there is also Majoras Mask maybe it would be Deku Scrubs then Twili as a chance percentage).
Okay, enough tangent. Ultimately I would just love a Hyrule that is thriving with ALL the civilizations ever introduce in Zelda before the evil (Ganondorf) threatens it all (I mean higher stakes the more diversity of civilizations there are, that would face annihilation if the villain would get his way). Would also help to change out all this filler landscape I hated so much in BotW and TotK, if there were more civilization that have buildings and settlements in the world or imagine a Civ game with all the Zelda civilizations.
Can definitely relate
16:30 this actually works with the canon of TOTK. It was confirmed that Sonia was a priestess of the goddess Hylia before she married and became Queen. (Also implied that she is also Hylia's descendent/blood)
Since the temple of time that we see in TOTK is clearly a Zonai structure, it is more then likely that there was Hylian counter parts to the temple. It possibly was destroyed by a calamity or forgetting when the kingdom collapsed. The Temple of Time in the sky was likely made by the Zonai or even Rauru to show further union between the last two Zonai and their new kingdom. If she knew about the Master sword, she probably didn't say anything about it because there was no Hero to retrieve it.
It also makes sense to me if Hyrule's original kingdom collapsed and then established a ruling system based on a theocratic system. So that could account for Sonia's status and why Rauru chose to marry her. Ppl clamor to religion in uncertain times.
For all we know, the Zonai may have came from the sky but the Hylians might have been there first. The Zonai likely has their domaine in the depths, considering that their Zonai deposits can only be found there (and the mine in the sky was confirmed to have been moved there). Since the depths shows twili (who may I add are a sub race of hylians) and one other mystery race's influence, I bet you that the Zonai were a younger but more temporary empire. The Zonai probably collapsed when the calamity struck, or that mining for Zonai is was released Demise back from his spirit prison.
Huh a Zelda vid that talks about my home province, not expecting that.
i'm saying this, watchin the videos at 22:02 but, what if Zonai where simply Evolved Minish ? Same architecture, and, if BOTW/TOTK take place after the merged of the three timelines, it would make sense since the minish don't even got any information about the Master Sword or the Triforce
I’ll eventually make another video about the god tribe, but I’ll tell you here, there’s evidence of the Zonai being around since before SS 😉