How to Modify Klipsch speaker horns for better sound.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 кві 2020
- How to dampen Klipsch Cornwall IV horns for better sound. I apply Dynamat Extreme to control horn ringing and describe the sonic changes that result.
CAUTION! Proceed at your own risk. I am not responsible if you damage your gear, hurt yourself or you don't like the results you get.
Here are several precautions:
1) Disconnect and unplug your power amplifier from your speakers before attempting anything
2) Dynamat Extreme sticks very well. Consider this modification irreversible. Only attempt it if you are confident that you know what you are doing. I'm not responsible if you don't like the result.
3) Make sure not to apply Dynamat where it will interfere with a horn's proper fit into the speaker cabinet.
4) Mark the wires and the drivers so you can be sure to properly reconnect the wires when you reinstall the drivers. If you don't do it correctly, you may blow a driver, or your amplifier or have some drivers out of phase with others.
For those that may ask, here is the Dynamat I used: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
It's an 18x32" sheet, which was enough for the midrange and tweeter, for my pair of Cornwall IV speakers. Some material was damaged from the shipping folds, but I still had a little extra left over.
Good luck and happy listening!
![JBL vs Klipsch | same song, same setup [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PDzIe3F1yKA/mqdefault.jpg)
Needed a Covid project and although skeptical, I decided to go ahead on my newly rebuilt and upgraded Klipsch Belles. Well all can say is" thank you". The improvement is absolutely worth 90 minutes of work. What I noticed is a smoother mid and reduced distortion. This improvement manifests itself in easier listening even at higher concert volume levels. This should be a standard upgrade on all horns.
Fantastic! We are hearing similar things, I beleive.
What upgrades dis you perform on your belles?
What model Klipsch speakers did you modify?
I’ve been wanting someone to do this exact thing for over 10 years. Thank you for being that someone. I think I would have done a little less in certain areas but , yea why not try it everywhere and see how it sounds. If it’s too dead you can always peel some away. Great job.
Great video and great approach to describing sound/noise awareness as things get "cleaned up." Thanks!
I recently picked up a pair of Forte ii from the 1990s at a very reasonable price and applied dynamat extreme to the midrange and tweeters just like in this video. I also applied it to the insides of the cabinets. Only about an 8 inch wide strip on each side. Top to bottom. I am driving them with a Decware 2watt tube amplifier and am stunned how much more dynamic the sound is. Especially the bass. Its full and rich. So this method does work. To my ears it did improve the sound. Thank you for the video!!
Thanks for sharing your experience. Glad it worked well for you too!
Husband here....your description of finding new problems IS Spot on! This will be a fun project and improving on my audio journey......I am also recapping my Heresy's and JBL's.......fun, fun, fun! Thanx!
Thanks!
Great Tutorial, this improved the sound of my 4 RB-81II so much. I nearly sold them on ebay, but now they sound perfekt on higher volumes. They lost the annoying sharpness in loud "Party Mode", an i love to play them loud. Thanx a lot, and greetings from Austria.
You're welcome. Glad you heard and liked the change!
You are so right about that last part! 😄My whole life I've been going thru that 'fixing one noise only to reveal another' thing
After seeing your video, I thought, "Of course! Why didn't I think about it before?" I've used Dynamat in my car and it works wonders. Great callout and good job on doing the video.
This mod is absolutely a good one. Great job. I tried some foam behind mid horn but this was a mistake. Guys from klipsch know how to make an excellent speakers.
Thanks.
Interesting.
I assume this would benefit nearly any horn waveguide. Great video!
Thanks. That would be my guess, but without trying it and listening before and after, I wouldn't want to make that "any" assumption.
I will be recapping my 1989 Forte II's and will be doing this very thing to the horns. It just makes sense, and can see why they would sound better and cleaner. Thanks for the vid.
I love the horns on all my Klipsch. Never thought about changes.
If you like them as is then keep them as is! Thanks for watching.
I’ve spent 10 years trying to get used to them. Music. Oh my gosh so good.
Movies? Not so much
If they ain't broke, and they definitely are not, don't fix 'em. Some people still don't quite understand that the entire stereo system, in order to get the most of it, should be well matched.
I just completed this process for Heresy I’s I aquired and the difference is VERY noticeable. Much more clarity and separation in the midrange. I can clearly hear every instrument and words sung. I only did the midrange horn, but WOW, most of the music is played from that horn anyhow. These are much better to listen to now… the strange resonance has disappeared. The problem was the plastic horn that easily resonated interfering with the sound in a particular range of frequency, unfortunately where much of the music is. Thanks so much for this presentation.
You’re very welcome. Glad you’re pleased!
Thanks for your videos. They're very interesting! I like how the Klipsch community embraces the upgrades, it learned a lot from the forums and my upgrades/mods really did a lot to bring them back to life. I recently upgraded my Klipsch Quartet with new crossovers and Bob Crites Titanium Tweeters and I'm very happy. Dean and Frank have never sounded better!
You are very welcome. Thanks for watching and for your kind words.
Spot on!
Did the same with my Klipsch as well as the rear woofer baskets (less ringing?) and interior of the cabinets. Might say "OVERBOARD" but I appreciate it!
Thanks. IMO it really changes the character, for the better, and resolution of the speaker.
Horn drivers can have a nasal,"honking" quality. So, I decided to try this with my Forte IV's.
After making stencils, I applied the Dynamat Extreme to one speaker as described. Then, setting the audio to "mono", I did left-right comparisons while listening to symphonic, jazz, vocal, and percussion tracks. The Dynanat application significantly changed the sound quality. The locus of sound moved out in front of the treated speaker, while the sound on the untreated side was more within the speaker cabinet. The treated speaker did sound somewhat smoother, sweeter, and more direct. The untreated speaker was louder and seemed to have more resonance - like it was in a larger hall.
High frequencies were significantly attenuated on the treated side effecting ride cymbals, high woodwinds, and trumpets. I found the highs flat on the treated side and so I removed the Dynamat from the tweeter. With just the midrange horn damped, I continued the side-by-side comparison. Vocals were smoother on the treated side, but I found myself preferring vocals with the more open, overtone rich sound of the untreated Forte. So, after much reflection I removed the dampening material. For me, the application of Dynamat produced an over-dampened character.
All in all, I learned a lot from this experience. I think that resonant vibration of the walls of the horn drivers significantly contribute to the open quality that I like in my Forte IV's.
Well, there’s no substitute for your own experiences and preferences. For me, the Dynamat increased the naturalness, nuance, ease and dynamics considerably. Also, I too listened to one speaker before I did the second one. The difference was much more dramatic when I listened to the modified pair than when I just compared one stock speaker to one modified speaker.
Upgrading is not na easy stuff. I have replaced cheap capacitors once with expensive audio grade ones and the sound became so sweet… I could not listen to it anymore. Terrible. I have installed old capacitors back restoring original bit sharp character of the loudspeaker I liked.
Horns nasal
Horn bass, tunnel
Thats just the nature of the beast
i watched videos about doing this a while ago and i decided back then that if i was to do this i wouldn't be using dynamat, if i was to do this i would just put some gorilla tape on them or even normal sticky tape. because it's not how this guy's says it it's not about the plastic moving it's all about dampening not how the plastic moves. so, there's no need to go to the extent of using something like Dynamat which will just about completely dampen it, all you would need is something that will dampen it a small amount such as simply putting on some normal thin see through sticky tape or if you want something more some gorilla tape.
@@icanseeall-inthisreality Mortite is actually the best. It’s that gray silly putty also know as duct seal.
Very well done. You have a great understanding of the subject. Our brains do a lot of "error correction" when we hear things, and the more error correction we do the quicker we tire. I learned this some time ago when setting up sound for large instructional conferences in stadiums. Maybe the instructor isn't the reason everyone is sleepy. Is there a lot of echo, or are there resonances or peaks that can be tamed, is there a lot of mid bass from proximity effect? The idea is to get the desired signal over arena noise as high as possible. So by damping the horns you have raised the ratio of music to the plastic noise from the horn. Bracing the cabinet should produce the same effect. Now that your brain is doing less work it will concentrate on the bass and/or the next problem. I also like how you illustrated the sound masking effect.That is why we put loud stereos in cheap cars so we can't hear what is wrong with them :-)
Yes, exactly.
I agree with what you have done.
Putting the resonance of the horn below the range of what the speaker plays is within design ideals. So I would say the dude that designed it would be happy.
I just bought some cornwalls 4. I will be doing this to mine thanks for sharing awesome video!
Congratulations! You may want to get familiar with them as is, before the mod, so you’ll fully appreciate the effect of the damping. Enjoy!
This is some excellent and detailed work here...it takes alot of patience and you have it...thanks for sharing!
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching!
Yes everything you said makes sense.. I noticed in your last video on these speakers you had cited some issues you noticed, such as box resonance and resonance in the horn, but as you found out,, when you make changes, you’ve altered the original personality of the component. This is why when people talk about modifying and customizing stuff, I always tell them to make sure you know exactly what your expectations are, and what affects what, so you know what you’re giving up, what you’re getting, and whether that’s overall what you want to be getting. The resonances you removed were obscuring the sound, and by removing them you created a sonic opening that brought other sonic deficiencies into the foreground. When I’m trying to listen critically to audio,
I need the absolute lowest ambient noise to do it. This includes the noise floor of the equipment driving the speakers, mechanical or electrical !! You probably work the same way to realize the difference.
All Good videos on the Cornwalls btw.👍👨🏻
I'd like to see what their designer, Roy Delgado has to say about this and these changes.
Me too.
Fascinating experiment and very plausible results...makes complete sense and is like something I ,myself might do... I have klipsch speakers also, specifically the sf1 towers... picked these up cheap but found them harsh with a too prominant midrange and very bright topend... they take some getting used to and or lots of audio adjustments, at least for my ears!
I’m not familiar with the sf1 towers but it may help. If they’re too bright, try increasing the toe- in so they’re not pointing right at you but instead cross ahead of you.
REALLY ENJOYED THE VIDEO. Watched 3 times over in the past few months. I am now getting too tempted to do the dynamat thing on my Forte III but a bit afraid 😦
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I understand your apprehension because it's not reversible. Please read my precautions in the video description (above). IMO the benefits made it very worthwhile and the cost was only about $30. It does take several hours and everyone has different levels of experience when it comes to this kind of project. Good luck f you decide to go ahead! Let me know how it goes.
I did a mod on my R 820 F and my R 51 m surrounds by lining all the walls with thick polly fill. What an improvement. Tighter bass no more muddy sound and in that process I could hear my mids better because all that cabinet resonance went away. Next will be your horn modification. Thanks ..
What is poly fill? I have some r52 towers I may want to do this with...
All the exotic plastics nowadays....
It is amazing that Klipsch wouldn't use a more acoustically inert material for their horns. Really no excuse for it.
Thanks for this great video.
BTW:
Dampen - make something wet
Damp - absorb energy
They do on their rp series because they're made in china. By having these heritage speakers made in hope, arkansas, you're spending alot more money on labor and they have to cut costs in some places.
@@SpencersStuffTV That is good to know. Thanks
Any single material may not work as well as a 3-layer composite, which is what the Dynamat (viscoelastic rubber and aluminum) on the horn creates.
I did this with 4 strips on each horn. What I hear is a reduction in overtones which seems to take some of the muddiness out of them. Definitely helps the clarity.
Glad you like it! Yes, I should have mentioned that one can get big benefits from a few strips of treatment. Obviously, I covered the entire horn, but if that’s too much hassle, there’s benefit from partial coverage. Without doing a careful comparison, I can’t say if what I did was a waste of time or if your approach “left something on the table”.
If I didn't live 600 miles away I'd offer a few hours of quality craft beer in exchange for a listen to your system! Well done Sir.
Thanks. The beer would be great, but I'd let you listen just to share my system!
I really enjoy your video's. It's nice to see someone who isn't afraid to make improvements to their gear. Keep up the great work!
Thank you. The purpose of my channel is to work towards hearing better and getting the most out of our systems, no matter the cost or specific type of gear.
Soo many comments from people who clearly don't understand that input/output coloration is NEVER a good thing. Any coloration of the original audio should be done by the producer prior to final release.
Also, just because the company sold it a certain way, doesn't mean the engineers were happy with it... only that it allowed the company to hit a predetermined price point in the market.
Keep doing what you enjoy, the trolls will do the same I assure you.
THANK YOU!!!
Again great video! YT needs more of hifi DIY videos
Thank you.
I have been thinking of doing that to my RF7's first generation speakers, seeing this, I now will get to do it.
Kindly note my precautions in the video description above.
I just did this to my RF-7s (Dean G Xover modded), last night after watching the other video. I don't know how to describe it well, but lets just say, I'm now more excited to listen to 2 channel stereo than before.
Damped the tweeter of my Heresy IV with rope calk and heard an improvement. What I heard as sibilance must be a resonance in the plastic horn. With the tweeter resonance reduced now I can hear that resonance in the midrange so I will dampen it next. The speaker sounds more laid back and less ‘in your face’. No rush to do the midrange mod since the sound is already excellent… but when I have some time I’ll probably tinker. As you said, do it as long as it’s fun and when it’s no longer fun just enjoy as is.
Have some old school Heresy speakers. I have dynomat extreme all over my car. Love the stuff and it works. May do that for indoor audio too.
Nice!
I'm with you 100%.I upgrade speakers constantly.i really enjoy it! I'm doing horn speakers now.(Klipsch Belle's, Hereseys,EV, and some JBLC53 libras.) Dampening the horns are essential.but the woofers that Klipsch has been using in their heritage series for some time have missed the mark(low efficiency,and serious roll-off in the upper bass/lower midrange regions.i found that using cast frame,high efficiency woofers seems to balance the system much better.i always pull those CTS woofers out of Klipsch's and replace them with Pro JBL stuff.it's just magic when modifing Klipsch speakers.
Hi Chris, husband here...for my heresys, what "pro JBL" stuff are you suggesting?.....Thanx in advance
@@debragibson3489 Debra, the Woofers/Horns that are in the newer Klipsch stuff is Cheap stuff.Most people think that an upgrade is Newer,high tech stuff,but it is Not!!!.when it come to Klipsch, I Backgrade!! The Early Model H700 Heresey used the Electrovioce SP 12B woofer,K55v(Atlas) Alnico Mid driver w/cast mdl.700 horn.Electrovoice T35 Alnico tweeter
@@debragibson3489 that is current configuration in my Heresey's.The JBL D123 work's great,but is pricey.(L100 woofer).in bigger Klipsch Designs,the Alnico JBL Pro 15's are critical( Le 15a,130a,2215,2220,150a,etc...make sure the us are cast frame and preferably Alnico.
@@debragibson3489 Pro EV stuff is great as well.less pricey.(EVM 12L,voted best guitar speaker),EVM 12B, for Heresey's.For larger Klipsch's,EVM 15L,15B. Hope I've helped!! Good luck!!
Anyone try to place dynamite on the armor church of the woofers? I and mark I heard those have some resonance as well
I put Dynamat on the inside of my my speaker cabinets, major improvement!
What kind of speakers did you treat?
@@thebostonaudiophile Jbl 4312C
Love the start of this.
I plugged my cornwall in bi-wiring on my rotel Michi S5 + P5, I took two 4mm cables of diferante brand, the sound that comes out is really incredible, I would really like to listen to your cornwall with the modifications you make , thank you for your always very interesting video.
Thanks for watching. I want to try bi-wiring at some point also, so I appreciate your insight. There are many things I want to experiment with but it’s important for me to take it slowly and give myself plenty of time to absorb and readjust to system changes. Otherwise, my impressions will become a muddled mess.
Did this to my Forte IIs and I did notice an improvement. Slight, but noticeable, and I assume that the difference would be more significant in a higher resolution speaker like the new Cornwall IV.
Thanks for this awesome video! A few months ago I bought a Forte III, and I must say I am not enjoying them very much. I find them very jarring in the high-mids, especially brass instruments and certain vocals can be very fatiguing and harsh. On the other hand, they lack bass and mid-bass in my opinion. This is a new pair which cost a fair bit of money and I am worried about hacking it without any experience, but do you think this type of upgrade may tame that shouty top? I'm also going to experiment with some tube rolling and cables, but wondering which upgrade will have the highest impact?
What about treating your room to absorb some of those high frequencies... there are many kinds of treatments including DIY.
Oh yeah, forgot about Dynamat.. You could use that for the stamped steel legs of the woofers too. Great job!
Thanks for the tip. I'd like to research woofer basket rigidity and damping.
Thanks again for your videos. I may have to try this with my la Scalas. I have attached multiple layers of dynamat to the underside of my audio rack shelves to control resonance.
You are welcome. Remember to mark the wires and horn terminals so you get it put back with the crossover connected to the right drivers and with the proper polarity. Also, the Dynamat sticks really well, so I would consider it non-reversible. Good luck!
Hi That was interesting. I was thinking of doing something like that for my own rack under the units. Dynamite is inexpensive so did you get a audible result with Dynamat?.
@@theklipschcave5593 I wanted to be able to use a rack with thin, metal shelves and have tube amps. I try and control / reduce resonance wherever possible.
@@johnhogie I agree. I'm working at it all the time. I think its especially important with a tube amp.
I did these mods to my Cornwall 4’s about a year ago seem to work well. I was considering doing the Dynaman extreme to the side walls and possibly backside of front baffle and bass baskets. Has anybody done this on the Cornwall fours. Don’t know if it will do anything. My biggest caution is that I don’t want it to kill the open airy dynamics of the speakers or make them sound dull or muddier.
Could use No-Rez but I believe it’s thicker don’t want to mess with air flow.
Another great video , you wonder why can the manufacturer not do this at design and manufacture. if they are all about sound quality. it will make a huge difference.
I’ve seen a lot of guys on the Klipsch boards who dynamat the woofer basket also and passive radiators. I’ve had a lot of fun experimenting with these mods on some older stuff just to see if I like it enough to do more of my better speakers.
I was thinking of something different than just Dynamat on the baskets. Still deciding if I want to go there. The Dynamat is sure easy though and I bet it helps!
Dynomat should be ok. I have been thinking of making my own and dampening on the woofer (any woofer) was something I am considering. I had actually been thinking of some more extreme mastic/bitumen type product, but something that comes of with acetone would be better.
ANYTHING that reduces or eliminates resonance in a speaker, whether that resonance be in the horn, the woofer basket or of course , the cabinet itself, will yeild a more true and pure sound reproduction..its all these combined resonances that Add Up to produce an overall diminishing of good sound...Very expensive speakers have taken great care to deal with these areas..Its the midrange and budget speakers that really need the help
@@thebostonaudiophile the old Infinity Column II's had 4 woofers and they literally ring like bells when you knuckle rap them. I cut and put damping strips on the baskets and then braced the part of the enclosure that resonated the most. I also damped the midrange enclosure. It was a huge improvement in those speakers. Low cost and low risk also for those speakers.
@@66doodzThanks for your firsthand feedback!
If the comment below was intended for me he could be right looking to modify perfectly good new speakers, but this was an awesome video going over the details to make it happen. If you see this Mr. Boston Audiophile or anyone else that has dampen the horns can you let me know if this takes away the live performance feel the speakers give you. Thanks Ted
Going to be doing this to my several pairs of Klipsch speakers. Also, investing in new foam for the interiors wouldn't hurt on vintage pairs. Materials degrade and lose density over the years
Let us know how it goes!
Finished (Dynamating) 2nd speaker just now. Astute modification that is ridiculously easy to execute and super inexpensive. A must. To my ears, result is substantial and positive.
Thanks!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You’re very welcome 😉. Yes, it makes a big difference. People think everything is a “tweak” but the horn damping is a major improvement to resolution as well as musicality. Enjoy your speakers and thanks for watching.
@@thebostonaudiophile Yes it is. BTW, I just ordered Sonic Barrier 1" acoustic foam to cover inside walls of Cornwalls. I'll test it next weakened. Goal is to smooth out bass resonance inside the speaker. Also, have you considered using dynamat on bass stamped basket and those 3 flared bass ports???
@@thebostonaudiophile why wouldnt Klipsch put these damping improvements in stock speakers?
@@thebostonaudiophile - Hi did you add any sound damping material inside or dynamat the woofer baskets and/or the bass ports at the bottom? Thanks!
@@Grooverski Did you end up doing this? How does it sound?
Would a spray on damping material have any downside? I just acquired a pair of AK5 and converted them to a B profile and plan on trying a mini dsp 4x10 with 6 channels of old McIntosh tube amps and see how that goes. The Khorns will be used mostly for old movies with optical soundtracks. I would have loved to use Western Electric horns but they are the size of a car and cost as much as my house.
Nice job!
Excellent hack. Thanks for sharing.
You’re very welcome. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the video. I got my Cornwall 4's a couple of months ago and am interested in doing the horn mods. My favorite part of having these speakers is their live sensation as with many recordings or videos it gives you the feeling you are in the front row or sounds like you are on the stage where the music is being played instead of listening to the speakers in your room. Did doing the horn mods take this sensation at all away from the speakers. Thanks T.R.
Brilliant idea, even with new models years after this video would be helpful too. 2023 RP-8000F II with the rubber on the front, but nothing on the back. 💯 👍
Thanks for watching and commenting.
I dampened my horns this weekend and it did seem to give better seperation of instruments especially times when more instruments are playing. It also seemed to make the sounds even more clear and clean. Thank you very much for doing the leg work for us.
To tighten the bass up even more and keep the sound clearer at high volumes with a lot of things playing I am concidering pulling the bass speakers and treating the metal baskets with the Dynamat and I'm not sure the best way to brace the sides of the cabinets or the best way to dampen cabinet sides with wool or no-rez without taking away the livelyness of the speakers. If anyone has tried this or has any other thoughts I sure would appreciate them. Thanks Ted
Ted, what did you find out
@@Hugeroost Other than moving them around a bit I haven’t touched them since. I did however get a new Parasound Halo A52+ Power amp to use with my Yamaha RX-A1080 receiver. Added Great pop and clarity to the sound.
@@tedrubinstein2003 cool deal, I'm considering hooking up my yamaha B2 to mine and see how that sounds. I have read what a great combo that is
Hello, when you play music with tight bass, do you have tight, relaxed or boomy bass with the Cornwall IV? Thank you
Interesting. Good job keep it up like your video 👍💪
(Take it slowly and try
To enjoy music not be distracted by listen only to the sound of your system)
Thanks.
I agree that it can improve, eliminate resonances. For me, these are improvements based on the placebo effect - because I can't hear any difference after damping, but when I connect another receiver to play, the sound always changes.
This is the way of IMPROVEMENT, on the proper matching of system components and their synergy ...
hi! anyone know what is the midrange driver throat size? thanks
Steve Guttenberg recently featured an audiophile that used Dynamat on the inside of the case of a Cambridge Audio CXC cd transport. He made several other changes but felt the Dynamat helped reduced resonance during playback. I own a CXCgreat transport for the $ and have thought of adding the Dynamat too. We’ll see.
Yes I saw that one. good tweaking that made sense. Do look into damping mats to decouple your speakers from the floor to regulate the bass sound. Auralex under my Fortes makes a difference on top of transport dollies like Darko use on his Fortes and Boston Audiophile use on his Cornwalls. Not to forget the need for raking. Slight tilt upwards can make a big difference.
theklipschcave Didn’t Darko put his Fortes on a wooden frame with 4 caster wheels? Like a moving dolly? I owned a pair of original ‘86 “Oiled Oak” Fortes. They were paired w a good ol Marantz 2325 125w receiver. Nice combo. Really enjoyed it...
@@keeferdog5617 Yep. Wooden frame, or a transport platform bought in a hardware store like mine. But I do have Auralex damping mats to decouple the speakers and the bass from the floor. They really make a difference. I been lokking into the Dynamite tweet. All carprople use this. Cheap and effective. Probably good combo with a damping mat under my CD-player and tube amp.
Any updates on a F7 review. Hows the synergy with the F7 and your Cornwalls?Thanks
It’s coming. These videos take time. Thanks for your patience.
Yes! Great video!
Thank you. Glad you liked it!
I'm wondering if using some Flex Seal spray rubber would be as effective with 1/10 the work? How hard is it to completely detach the plastic horn from the driver section? Klipsch could sell the plastic part to modders to replace mods if they don't work out.
Flex Seal spray will not create constrained layer damping (Dynamat is a viscoelastic rubber with an aluminum constraining layer) which is critical for high-performance damping.
After a few months now.. Do you still recommend this treatment? Is it the better sounding speaker compared to the untreated one?
Yes.
Thanks for taking the time to share this mod with the detailed explanation. Did you make any mods to crossover as mentioned in your previous video?
Not yet. Still deciding if I want to go there.
I have seen many videos of people taking out the horns say on a Forte or Cornwall. But it seems the paint is always ripped off on the lip of the hole. Do you know what black paint Klipsch uses to replace missing paint before putting back in the horn?
I don't know what kind of paint they use but when I did mine no paint came off.
I've got Forte 1s, am thinking of treating the horns (I've heard No-Rez works great too, not sure how it compares to Dynamat). It seems like there could be another nice improvement by bracing and damping the cabinets too. My crossovers are probably a bit diminished; I'd like to either rebuild the stock ones (circa 1985) with new caps, or I could also go 6 channel active via mini dsp and delete the crossovers all together. Even like they are, I sure love listening to them : )
Have you “upgraded” with No Rez in the inside of the cabinet? I’m thinking of doing this on my Heresy 4.
I have not. If you try that, let me know how it goes!
BA, I've been following this series with great interest as the Cornwall IVs are in the top five of my next speaker investigation. Thanks for doing all this work. I'd like to recommend that you check out a YT video by New Record Day called Klipsch Forte III upgrade and more. This is an upgrade by Danny Richie who has a great pedigree for speaker design, speakers, and DIY speaker kits. In this and other videos on that channel, he describes in detail what he does to improve speakers (note that I'm not recommending the XO upgrade). He also sells a product on GR_Research called no rez which he applies to the inside sides, tops, & bottoms of cabinets. Please keep up the good experimentation and reporting.
Thanks. Glad you like this series. I agree, Danny Richie’s mods look excellent.
Yeah, I wouldn’t touch those crossovers. Not worth it.
chasmj3, I'm glad that you mentioned Danny Richie. I have Forte IV's and I have applied ideas from Danny and BA. Danny, when evaluating the poor parts quality he finds in many x-overs, says that the sand cast resistors and magnetic steel parts in the signal path degrade sound quality. The Forte and Cornwall x-overs have a number of sand cast resistors and I wanted to replace the sand cast resistors with a higher quality wire wound resistors. I ordered Vishay 1% Wire Wound 10 watt resistors from Mouser Electronics. Mouser had 13 ohm resistors but no 8 ohm and no 5 ohm resistors. I parallel connected two 16 ohm resistors for each 8 ohm spot and two 10 ohm resistors for the 5 ohm spot. I took me an hour to remove and replace the resistors. What helped to make the resistor removal and replacement project so easy was how closely the Vishay/Dale 10 watt, 1%, wire wound resistors match the size of the stock resistors. One goal of my Forte IV x-over project was to work within the footprint of the original x-over circuit board. The limited real estate of the original x-over circuit board prevents me from considering installing the much larger air core inductors and high performance capacitors. For now I am stuck with the stock iron-core inductors and entry level capacitors. In addition to removing and replacing the resistors, I applied Kilmat Sound Deadening membrane to portions of the cabinet interior, midrange horn, bass drive frame and passive radiator frame. I removed the steel lock washers and steel nuts from a pair of input jacks and replaced those two pieces with brass washers and brass nuts. Lastly (since bi-wiring is not an important feature for me), I removed one pair of input jacks and I combined the two sets of input wires to a single pair of input jacks. The modded Forte IV’s initially sounded a bit congested/compressed. As I get more break-in time on the speakers, I note that they are beginning to open-up.
I put. dynamat on my oe Bose sub box in my Porsche & the bass sounds much better. I’m concerned that you have affected the balance of the low frequencies to the highs. I’m certain the driver screwed into the enclosure dampens if significantly. Glad you are having fun.
Another interesting experiment would be to replace iron core inductors with air core inductors and orient them 90° to each other in 3D. Another step is to apply Dynamat or similar constrained layer damping onto cabinet walls and a piece of carpet or layer of acoustic absorbent foam over that.
Yes. There's a lot of other things one could try.
Yes there are other things, but maybe on atleast tweeter and upgrade the resistors. To build all new boards to that quality would be hugely expensive for an experiment, because you would not want to cannibalize the originals. I would rather build stronger cabinets with less resonance than buy new cross overs.
hi The Boston Audiophile , I would like to listen to the sound of your kornwall with this new device, are you going to make a test video? to make the difference between before and now?
I didn't do a before so I can't make a before and after. I'm also concerned about music copyrights. This is just a hobby for me and I don't want any hassles.
I very much enjoyed your treatment of the horns, but wondered if the same logic had extended to lining all or part of the cabinets with sound deadening material?
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, there are undoubtedly several other parts of the speaker that could use damping and/or sound deadening.
Will this work on the tweeter horns of my F2s ? Thanx ! Wonder if it's such a cheap mod, why is it the manufacturers don't dampen the horns at the factory ?
Proper damping is costly. The best horns from Western Electric, Philips and other top makes were completely double walled with the interior space filled with fine sand! If you've ever heard a W.E. "multichanneled" cinema horn you're spoiled forever!
I expect so. I can't comment on why manufacturers don't do it. Perhaps they feel it's not cost-effective (It does take some time = money) or that their customers won't value the difference?
I’m going to try this on my 1990 klipsche Quartets. Also, What type of crossover capacitor would you recommend as a replacement?
Unfortunately, I don’t know enough about the current capacitor options to make a good suggestion.
Anyone who thinks you or danny Richie know more about Klipsch's speakers than the manufacturers and designers themselves are in for a let down I have a feeling. This is about like when I was 19 and modifying my car only to realize I should've left it alone.
I know a lot of people don't believe in break in and I am not sure I do, but it seems like after 1 year with my Klipsch system, it is sounding so much better than it did in the beginning. At first, I was not happy at all but now I'm in love and a very big advocate for Klipsch. I've put many hours on them, my whole family uses them, so a lot of hours at around 70-80db.
A year later, just today I bought 2 rp-250s to finish my surround sound because these speakers are just so good, so good it's unbelievable. If the 280f costed $3500 they would get much more credit than they do. Lucky for us, they're only $800 a pair, the center 450c for $400 is unbelievable, great deal, amazing center, the first real center that can actually take on the demands of a center channel that I've ever used can actually get the voices right and delivers deep beats and the Dynamics of real life instruments and cinema action.
Kohn, with the horn mods the only negetive I could imagine is that, the crossover was designed with the horn resonance present. take away this resonance and there could be a dip in the response at that point. that's all. I think the sound should actually improve. Horn resonances aren't part of the music. Everything is built to a price, and I reckon Klipsch should have gone the extra mile and implemented somtehing like this themselves.
Mods aren't for everyone. It's fine to leave them stock. Still a good speaker!
@Kohn Futner Agreed. It has taken several hundred hours with my Cornwalls plus small position adjustments and suddenly everything has snapped into place with solid bass even from a 6 watt SE amp. Moving the speakers even by an inch towards the wall changes the amount of bass.
Retail loudspeaker designers work to a marketing strategy and a budget. The original design might well of had these mods done by the prototyping team but them removed them to bring into budget. Simply saying you don’t know better than the designers is gobbledygook! If these were the best they could possibly be why did they feel the need for a mk2 or 3??
Great parallel between car issues and HiFi gear. I know the struggle all too well. 😂 lol
I was wondering what issues you experience in the bass region now that you've upgraded the mid range?
J Wester Since dampening the horns, I’ve made other changes to my system, not the speakers, and the bass is sounding quite good now. I plan to follow up in future videos. At present, I need a new computer before I can make new videos. Thanks for your thoughtful question!
Awesome. How much material do I need to order to finish both horns on 2 speakers?
I used this (18x32"): www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00020CAVA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
which was enough for both speakers with a bit to spare.
Remember to mark the wires and horn terminals so you get it put back with the crossover connected to the right drivers and with the proper polarity. Also, the Dynamat sticks really well, so I would consider it non-reversible. Good luck!
The Boston Audiophile Thanks a lot. I’m going to follow your journey and start working on these mods. Seems pretty straight forward.
What are you planning on doing next, cabinet bracing? Seems like a next logical step before diving into crossovers.
If you are going to mod your crossovers, can you do a detail step by step process and parts list? It would be very helpful. Great work as always. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🙏🏻
You are welcome. Please read my cautions in the video’s description. Good luck!
I have not done this yet on my KG4s but, I can say that fully encasing the horns (or anything for that matter) is not necessary to dampen the resonance. I know this from my experience in the auto industry. Just as you can kill the resonance on a surface by laying your finger on it, you can do the same with a strategically placed piece of the dynamat. The extra material probably does no harm but, you do not have to go to the trouble of cutting pieces to fit the exact shape and contour.
I agree with you. Excellent point! If I were manufacturing a speaker, I wouldn’t take this whole coverage approach. I wanted to be sure I damped the whole surface, which is overkill, but gave me peace of mind that a little more coverage wouldn’t produce better sound.
I’ve seen a similar modification to older Klipsch. Did you do this because you thought the midrange was too hot/bright/forward?
Not exactly. I wouldn't characterize the Cornwalls as particularly bright. I was after more resolution, timbre accuracy, and control by taming the passive colorations of the horn.
Makes perfect sense to me. You don't have to be a sound engineer to figure out the economics of brand name speakers. Er....you don't have to be an accountant....sound engineers just do what they are asked to do....Yes interesting video and great job. Thanks.
What is that horn made of? It looks and sounds like plastic? I have Cornwall I and they seem to have metal horns so I don't know if this mod will benefit me.
Yes, the Cornwall IVs have plastic horns but older Klipsches do have metal horns. I would think the Dynamat would really improve those metal horns too but I haven't tried it, so I can't say for certain. If you try it let me know what you hear!
Will this work on my Klipsch RF-82 gen 1 speakers? Thanks!
I’m not sure. If the horn part of the 82’s is a hard, molded plastic with a smooth rear, like you see in the video of my Cornwall’s, I would think that it would work.
Everything vibrates at a certain frequency, so it makes sense to try and damp it when it's in the audible frequency range (especially so when it's at higher frequencies). When a note plays that is the same frequency as the resonant frequency of the horn, it will join in and muddy the sound. I didn't see any foam on the back wall of the cabinet, so it would be worth experimenting with acoustic, open cell foam. Obviously keep it well away from the ports. Advantages are a tighter, cleaner low end, disadvantages can be less bass if you go over the top.
Overdamped bass reflex cabinets introduce a fresh set of issues. Stiff cabinet walls and high flowing, low noise ports are the ticket with bass reflex 👍
I wouldn’t go overboard and kill the cabinet
@@dougg1075 A speaker is not like a musical instrument that produces its own sound. It's supposed to reproduce sound.
Yes. That's a good explanation.
I think I may try some rockwool in the upper cabinet of my la scalas and see what the difference is.
This may be why wooden horns have such a good reputation.
I have used duct seal to dampen speaker baskets. Is dynamat more effective?
Could be a plus for wood? I didn't use the Dynamat as a seal but as a surface damper. The enclosures are ported anyway so I don't know if sealing would make a big difference or not.
@@thebostonaudiophile I use the duct seal as a damper. It is like a thick putty of fairly high density so damps some of the ringing.
This is pretty cool. I feel like there’s always a trade off in the audio world. Something like this I think would maybe help with one thing but then reduce performance with something else. I would love to do something like this to one of my rf7iii and leave the other one normal and compare them. I feel like if I did both and listened it would be a challenge to notice what difference it made if any. And if I do think I hear a difference I would be afraid it was just placebo. I really want to try something like this now I wonder how I would go about taking the horn out of my speaker.
I got techniec speakers they 4 12s tall with 2I’m thinking about putting horns on them
Did you place Dynamat on the 15 inch driver basket?
I haven't tried that yet. Still mulling over options ...
Ottimi consigli, mi piacerebbe provare a farlo sulle mie kp250, saluti dall'Italia
Great video, how about modifying the chassis of the 15” woofer?
I’ve been thinking about the woofer and cabinet, but I’m still deciding what, if anything to do. The first thing I want to play with is speaker position (again!) now that I can hear what’s going on even better.
@@thebostonaudiophile Once I heard the Klipschorn. It's been something "magical". Driven by Accuphase chain. Outstanding performance in all the frequencies. Incredible imaging. From that experience I placed my Forte III at 40°, two feet from the back wall and one feet from the side wall. The sweet spot is something like 2 feet from me. They sound great!!!! Hope to did the right conversion from meters to feet ;)
@@alfa71omega I hear you got the same experience like me. Very interesting. Once I had the horns. They were too big for the room. You have to have a really big room and understand how they work. They are great. But the Fortes are not so bad either. I have the Fortes 90 cm in front the front wall. 40 cm from the sidewalls. Curtains and absorbers on the front wall and diffusers.
The couch moved forward against the front wall. It looks strange but sound good.
its a good idea, that do work, on the midrange horn , not really on the tweeter
I tried this dampening with my KG-4 horns. My results were discouraging; it took all the brightness out of them and they sounded dull and nasally. I removed the dampening and the brightness returned. I did however use a gasket material around the screw flange and that seemed to do the trick for me.
Sorry to hear that you didn’t like the results. I’m not familiar with the KG-4, but your ears are the ultimate judge for your system.
@@thebostonaudiophile Plastic horn with soft dome tweeter.
Do you still use the Cornwall's and if so, what are your long-term impressions? Are you still happy with them?
I'm getting ready to do this to my pair and was wondering. I just subscribed so I don't miss your response.
thanks!
Yes, I'm still using and enjoying the Cornwalls. Yes, the mod is worthwhile and I still like the effect. Be sure to use Dynamat Xtreme and not some other look-alike product, or I can't say how your results will be. Thanks for subscribing and for the good suggestion to do a long-term impressions video. It's something I've thought about, but maybe I'll make one in the next few weeks.
Has anyone tried damping the diaphragm? Taking it out and coating the inside with something to reduce resonance? I’ve already damped the back of the plastic horns to good effect. Just wanted to see if this tweak can be brought even further.
thanks for sharing.
credits to Shimager (you can see his video on youtube) who demonstrated this technique 8 years ago.
I doubt either of us was the first to try this. :)
I'm currently scouring the internet, looking into the possibility of DIY'ing a set of speakers as close to the Heresy IV's as possible because they're just too expensive retail here ($8k). I wonder if it's beneficial treating horns bought on Parts-Express the same way.
www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/faital-pro-12pr300-seos-12-dna-360.100/
@@rrock2025 Looks promising. I like that it's a 2-way also!
Recommend for klipch rf7?
A friend of mine sold me a set of Klipsch speakers for $50 because he was downsizing his possessions. I think they are from the 1970s but is there a way to tell what they actually are? I've never opened the back of them.
Congrats! Isn't there a label on the back?
Is he still around? These videos are very informative and I’m looking to get Cornwall IV’s soon.
Life has gotten in the way of my hobby but I hope to return with new vids soon.
That would be great to talk about how living with Cornwall IV in long term has worked out. I just bought a pairs with a prima Luna Evo 100, after 150 hours of break in, I am still struggling with certain to Ed in the female voice range, sometimes with certain male vocals and certain frequencies with guitar and trumpet. I hope this mod will help that, will be doing it sometime in the next few weeks. I am also surprised in the lack of bass from the 15 inch speaker. It works fine for music from the past, but some modern pop and country need subs to bring that huge chesty feeling. I never knew I would like bass, but spending $10,000 on my 50th birthday present has changed my expectations for sure.