Hussar vs Light Cav raiding potential (AoE2)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- Hussar raiding is very effective, but almost half of civilizations don't have Hussar. How important is the upgrade, especially compared to other common upgrades? In this video we investigate!
0:50 Hussar vs Light Cavalry stats
1:58 Ranking the importance of upgrades
4:35 Specific civilization exceptions
7:15 Attack upgrades
9:40 Final thoughts
____________________________________________________________
Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
The fact that teuton scouts take more arrows than fully upgraded polish winged hussars really emphasises the importance of armour
cant wait for teutons to start spamming scouts
@@Mexican00b The time has come to put that farming bonus into action!
Actually i wish teutons to have light cavalry upgrade , i think this will improve teutons a lot during late game trash war
What surprised me were Goths with surprisingly decent scout line.
@@belisarian6429 I think 99% of players are sleeping on goth cavalry in general
Hussar upgrade is the most important imo since its gives a +5 coolness bonus and also intimidates your opponent
By that metric Winged and Magyar Hussars are the strongest. :D
@@ArawnOfAnnwn yes of course. That's a fact
Literally the purpose of the "wings" in history
You could also argue that a light cav is not taken as serious while dealing the same damage
By this logic the Paladin upgrade is the best unit upgrade in the game... hmmm maybe I like this conclusion.
The Teuton scouts kinda blew my mind a little bit. I knew they could hold their own in melee thanks to the civ bonus, but they actually are also decent at tanking arrows? I think a lot of players are sleeping on this
Most player sleeping on Teutons even before HD was a thing... The reason for this is simply, because the meta in all AoE2 is knights or crossbows for the last 15 years. Teutons are not particularly good in either of those metas. Top players can utilize teutons, but the average player opens with either crossbows or knights 9 out of 10 times depending on what the picked/random civ favours more. It is literally the same reason, why there are only two opinions on Aztecs: A small, top tier group of players consider them an absolute op civ, while 90% of the average player just wont touch them because they have no stable and their archers are alos medokre at best.
Teutons are perfectly ballanced as they are. I would even consider them somewhat op, because of that ridiciolous armor bonus, but they are flying under the radar with that, because the average player just cannot play their advantages.
@@Randleray Problem with Teutons is that most average players will just want to make Teutonic Knights with them. It just feels wrong to play Teutons and not use the cool af capey bois. :P
@@Randleray teuton heavy cav is just a bit slow but it does quite well when actually fighting
@@ArawnOfAnnwn I wouldn't say that is THE problem with teutons, but I know what you mean. They are ultra situational. I would wish for them to be utilized a bit more often, but I don't think that will happen. They are one of the best ram panic buttons tho
@@Randleray Teutons get rarely picked in tournaments, though this is slowly changing I feel. And when they get utilized to their strenghts they can absolutely be dominant on a variety of maps. But even then, noone uses their scouts. I have seen more paladin plays, than scouts.
Teuton scout raids are legit. You get the cav upgrades for the knight line, don't have to spend any resources on light cav/hussar and still do a decent job.
Also good late game food eco from good defensive options and cheap farms.
Still pale to other civilisations but they are deceptively average for the scout line.
People sleep on them in imp, particularly for diving siege (scout cav is actually slightly faster than light cav and hussar, helps make up for no husbandry), but they still fall pretty flat in castle.
@@misteral9045 Very interesting... i just checked, it looks like the movement speed is decreased from 1.55 to 1.5 with the LC upgrade. Still lower than LC/Hussar with husbandry of course (i.e. 1.5*1.1 = 1.65), but it's something to be aware of... So many details about this game!
@@flac758 Yeah one quality of life thing that other age games have is a (mostly) complete unit description by clicking on its icon. Everything from the frame data to the historical inspirations. Age of Mythology and Aoe3 do this very well, Aoe2 needs it.
The biggest surprise in this video was the teuton scout. I already kinda knew about the importance of the armor upgrades and bloodlines (and the attack upgrade), but not in a million years would I have thought that the teuton scout would end up as high on the list as it did
We all know you need hussar upgrade to get wings
That or Red Bull
I honestly prefer the look of the Light Cavalry over the Hussar.
@@micahbush5397are you a Turk
@@mortache No, I just think the wings look silly.
@@micahbush5397 They were historically used though.
Fun fact about Teuton scouts - although they miss husbandry, they aren't the full 10% slower than light cav, because scouts are 0.05 faster than light cav. They have 1.55 speed Vs 1.65 for husbandry light cav/hussar.
Video sponsored by Hera
11
@@nelsonmejiaslozada9362 lol, the sound effect literally played in my mind as I read that. I think I have been playing this game for too long xD.
He's in the comments. Lurking. Making a list of who dares talk against the mighty hussar.
Lol😂
From my experience movement speed is much more improtant than you gave it credit for in this video. Faster units catch up quicker with villager getting more hits of and defensive buildings are more likely to miss faster units. I would think that missing husbandry is just as bad as missing the last attack upgrade. Husbandry cost just 150 food making it probably the most cost efficient rading tech. And this is not considering the better micro potential And quicker timing attacks hunsbandry enables.
Another plus for Teuton scouts: Scouts have a speed of 1.55, while Light Cav and Hussar are at 1.5 tiles/s.
That slightly makes up for missing Husbandry which improves LC and Hussar to 1.65
Ohhh, that's what i wanted to confirm... it's weird that hussar doesn't improve speed
The way of the cheap half measurements.
I think Cuman Scouts were the fastest unit in the game before Gurjuaras came out with their Shirvramshas.
@@Andreecals I feel like that should be a main benefit to the hussar upgrade considering the wings were done to make the horses run faster
@@annaairahala9462are wings supposed to increase downforce and thus traction? 🤨
And thanks to Hera for sponsoring today's episode!
i believe in Teuton scout cavalry supremacy
You forgot that Hussars look way cooler than Light Cav, that alone makes it worth the cost
The wings just look silly, in my opinion. I'll take Farimba over the Hussar upgrade.
I think a follow up test would be a race where the light cav or hussar are timed for killing villagers in a row with various spacings, from super tight for simulating mining camps to farther apart for t90 farms. See how much the cuman speed bonus helps compared to attack speed bonuses.
8:57 - Byzantines can't be in the same sentence with Koreans, Celts, Vikings... since they get the top tier upgrade, the armor.
It might have been good to see some tests of various scout line cavalry chasing down a fleeing villager.
Malians BARELY miss out on the number of attacks with Farimba, as they will leave the villager with 1 HP after 3 attacks.
Damn what if we add some Gbetos to clean up those 1hp villagers lol
That's enough to pick off all villagers with the slightest bit of damage; So not that bad to be honest.
@@martijn9568 true, but if a lot of villagers are damaged you're probably already in a good position for it to make a difference imo.
Shout out to Mongol Hussars who while not particularly good vs TC fire, are in top5 vs castle fire!
I like the scout cav line because when I first started out writing AIs, and I wasn't v good at making them be flexible with their strategies, one of the simpler AIs I wrote would just spam light cav + unique units, since it made villager distribution really straightforward.
Can't wait for part 2 of this video: what about raiding Spanis/Inca villagers?
The only other point that I would have been interested in is how far the villagers can run from to escape into a town center. 4 attacks vs 5 attacks could mean villagers escaping or not. Also the attack speed, even 5% could play a factor into that calculation.
Hi spirit of the law, will you do a 'best skirmisher civ' video in the near future? Looking forward to it.
we all know Poles and Lithuanians are the best choice because they get the most stylish hussars
probably the most important stat when it comes to light cavalry
@@majdavlk649 of course, when you are raiding your enemy town to death, you want to make sure everyone knows who you are and who has those sexy units
Well, they deal lots of damage too - Lithuanians max +4 on top of other attack upgrades and Poles area damage.
@@ariisee lithuanians relic bonus only affects knights and leitis, not scouts/light cav/hussar. and lithuanians miss blast furnace but poles miss last armor so it balances out
@@davidpereira5969 Thanks for correcting my mistake with that Lithuanians bonus - I really play more infantry civs than cavalry. Well, Polish Winged Hussar with 13 attack and area damage is still a very nice trash unit. (It's in a golden armor, still costs no gold lol)
I really wish the Devs start adding more info on the HUD when you're trying to see a unit's stats. Of course it makes sense that the Hussar is the final upgrade for the Scout line for Civs that have it, but I cannot stress enough how important it would be for new players to see which stat is improved.
There are stat sheets out there for sure, but sometimes, looking for things and seeing them directly in the game's interface is much better and simpler than quickly turning your gaze on another monitor (assuming you have one), on another device like a phone or tablet, or even a piece of paper.
How far can villagers run from each version before getting killed? Does the +5% attack speed change time to kill?
Basically, no unless the villager fought back. If they are running away, it depends on whether they have husbandry and whether the villager has wheelbarrow/handcart researched.
The most absurd example would've been non-husbandry non-cuman light cavalry chasing fully upgraded bohemian villager, they might won't be able to kill a single bohemian villager.
@@CrnaStrela so there is not a scenario where a vill could run to a TC and survive a light cav, but the hussar could catch it?
@@MenacingWithVideos nope, 5% is way too small to make difference when chasing, even stirrups barely make difference.
So, is the Teutons only having scouts just a flavour choice or are Teuton Light Cavalry too powerful for this world?
Historically accurate as well. Turkic people were ALWAYS the best in horse culture and raiding.
there was a pro game a couple years ago, I think in red bull woolowoo, where someone busted out Tuten scouts in late imp and totally took me by surprise. I had no idea how effective that was going to be.
You and Hera just released a video about hussars around the same time. Damn.
Thank you I've always felt like my teuton scouts could hold their own and now you've proven it 😊
Hussar upgrade needs a buff. It's too expensive for what you get. Either make it cheaper or buff the stats. Especially after Halb upgrade got buffed
It is an imp trash unit upgrade, so it shouldn't be a crazy upgrade for too cheap
No _absolutely not_ imperial age upgrades should be more expensive than comparable earlier age upgrades. This is why your Champion upgrade costs more than your long swordsman upgrade. The meta entirely changed when halbs were introduced and made so much better than pikeman, I don't want to see that with Hussars by making them anything more than "slightly better light cavalry"
This is one of the reasons why i love the scout line, the ability of raiding with the unit costing food is really worth it, sure there are better units, but sometimes spending gold on that is not worthy sometimes
At 7:59 isn't the percentages written as if going from low value to higher? Isn't it more correct to say " attack upgrades makes you take down villagers 17% faster, then 20% faster"?
Does Spirit of the Law read the comments? I would love if you gave us videos of you playing and beating all campaigns in AoE II with some humble commentary ❤ they'd be my absolute favorite videos if you chose to do them! Anyone else?
Do you think the Hussar upgrade is overcosted for what it does?
Hussar price is fine. Even in short term it's not the most important upgrade. But in long run, when hussars supposed to be main unit and produced in unlimited numbers, definitely upgrade will paid off.
Nice video and great timing, Hera also just posted his Hussar Tier list video, which is a must watch, if you looked this video!
Hi sotl, have a question that maybe you can analyze, as viking wich is their best raiding option?
Spirit, how many hours have you logged on this game? Mine is like 5 or 6 hundred hours. I showed you mine. Please show me yours.
I'd definitely go with Bulgarians, killing the vills 33% faster also means you'll spend 33% less time under arrow fire, that's as good as any defensive bonus. Great for fighting back against defenders too.
I think this convinced me that Sicilians do not need to have Hauberk affect their light cavalry. And I'll admit that I underestimated the old classic a bit. Those wings have quite a psychological effect.
If I play Gurjaras, is there a reason to use light cavs for raiding? The shrivamsha rider is a straight power creep to the light cav except against monks and has less vision.
Maybe just that Shrivamsha costs gold but Hussar only costs food
The downside is that Shrivamsha is completely paper - yes, it's nice for raiding quickly as it dodges and is fast, but any melee unit, so Spearmen, Pikemen, Knights, or something like Urumi Swordsman/Coustiller take those Shrivamsha Riders in just a few hits. Light Cavalry has vision, survives a bit more, and actually, if Shrivamsha Riders get hit with a Mangonel shot/a lot of arrows, they lose dodge and are left with 1 pierce armor. Light Cavalry has consistent 2. So it's not like Shrivamsha is really much better... and it costs gold, too. Personally, I find Shrivamsha Riders very squishy for some reason, so in campaign I went full Heavy Camel Riders + Siege Elephants. But I think mixing Shrivamsha Riders with a few Light Cavalry for vision makes perfect sense, as long as your enemy doesn't have his own melee units at home.
@@pioneerAv tbf, Gurjaras are a gold hungry civ, and completely screwed if they run out of it.
Can you compare these results to steppe lancers?
Bold of you to assume I'm not sending totally unupgraded scout cavalry at the enemy.
"There's no point idling around, the enemy economy would still supply their forces, ready your horses on the double!"
"Be honest are all of us...riding to our deaths?"
"yes we are"
"and since we're dying anyway you're saying it's better...if we at least die raiding?"
"I am"
"but wait...If we'll die anyway...then who cares what we do?, we can just disobey your orders and it wouldn't mean a thing would it?"
"yes, you're precisely right...Everything that you though had meaning, every hope, dream or moment of happiness, none of it matters, as you see our king resigning and losing 16 ELO...none of it changes what a flaming siege onager shot does to a body, we all die"
"But does that mean our lives are meaningless?"
"Does that mean that there was no point in our being trained?"
"Would you say that to our slain comrades?"
"What about their lives?, were their meaningless?"
"THEY WERE NOT!"
"THEIR MEMORY SERVES AS AN EXAMPLE TO US ALL, THE FALLEN SOLDIERS, THE FALLEN VILLAGERS, THEIR LIVES HAVE MEANING BECAUSE WE THE LIVING REFUSE THE FORGET THEM."
"AND AS WE RAID TO CERTAIN DEATH, WE TRUST OUR SUCCESSORS TO WIN THIS MATCH!"
"BECAUSE THE TEUTON SCOUTS DO NOT BUCKLE OR YIELD WHEN FACED WITH THE CRUELTY OF THIS MATCH"
"THE TEUTONS PUSH FORWARD!, THE TEUTONS SCREAM OUT!, THE TEUTONS RAID!"
~Paladin Erwin von Arnland, leading a charge of 40 Teuton Scout Cavalry on a Korean City.
RIDERS OF ROHAN, RIDE TO RUIN! RIDE FOR THE WORLDS ENDING! DEATH!
The talk of how relatively unimportant the Hussar upgrade is and how much the Teuton Scout overpreforms makes me curious on how much the various ranks of light calvary cost, like total resources required to tech into that kind of raiding
Indeed! The time & cost to tech into it would be very interesting. Could be inspiration for different scout builds
Teuton scouts not being worthless blows my mind. Thank you sir.
It’s not about the stats, it’s about the intimidation factor!
From this POV teutons are the best because nobody would expect them to come.
And what about Dravidians' Light Cav with Wootz Steel UU?
If u are reseraching plate mail, you allready have the other too and for that probably bloodlines, since you almost always pick that one up before any armor, so id put bloodlines number 1
I think Spanish hussars are worth mentioning since the most important techs do not require gold but instead get 20 gold for researching those!
And then Spanish Supremacy vills render all other civ's raids pretty much useless.
they pale in comparison to Turks : free upgrades and +1 pierce from civ bonus
Idk, by the end of this video I don't know if Hussar is a real word anymore
How do LC vs Hussar compare vs Elite Skirm? As that's an interesting bit of knowledge if it comes down to a trash war, is it worth upgrading to Hussar.
Can they finally get rid of those wings from regular hussar? Winged hussar should be the only one to have them and btw winged hussar should be an upgrade for lancer. It would be similar to the winged hussar from aoe3, a unit with long lance instead of sword.
Like the Magyar hussar?
@@viktorzouboulis2467 yeah, Magyar hussar also has wings… REMOVE THEM! ✂️
Is raiding any effective in campaign?
Yay, new video.
Am i the only one who would have liked the eagles to at least be mentioned shortly, since they are the most common raiding unit for the Mesa civs
Polish winged hussars might have paper armor but trash unit with decent splash damage is super sweet imo.
could you do a series on the appearance of the units? for example hussars, where those wings come from? are they based on a real historical army?
They are based on the Winged Hussars of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
Wearing wings strapped to the back, saddle, or the shield was popular among various light riders of Ottoman Empire, like Deli, then Hungarians, and then Poles, Lithuanians and Ruthenians or Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Winged hussars famously wore them at some occasions, but it was present in the whole region before them.
Hard to say when and where exactly did it originate, or for what reason, but it definitely looked striking. And for many of those people, it was just as important as actual practical reasons.
Magyar Huszar ATTACKING 10% faster from 2 seconds instead of only 5% SUPER important. No it's not overly, as it still sucks that they can't snipe villes in 1 fewer hit... But that's alright.
It would have been interesting (I really was expecting you) to see about the Incan Villagers with the armour techs (maybe even Supremacy) - the increased melee damage from melee upgrades for them would only really apply against Teuton Scout Cav with their increased armour too!
And supremacy vills
Byz Hussars seem to be actually worth making now to me
Also, aren't light cav faster than hussars? Meaning better at chasing a moving target?
How do Polish Wing Hussars with their extra 2 attack and trample fits here BTW?
Lithuanias WH seem to be just as effective at taking down villagers than most fully upgraded Hussars or LC.
But Polish ones deal 12 damage with each hit, I think, so with trample it should be, effectively, taking villager down in just 3 hits, even if just one villager is affected by trample?
That's probably significant enough in raiding, even if Lechitic Legacy is pretty expensive,.
Do Dravidian armor-ignoring light cav kill villagers more quickly ? (at least, they should be the fastest Inca villager killers, but might also be more effective against Bohemians and Spanish ones)
Do I play AOE?- No
Does my PC support AOE if I want to play it? - No
Do I watch SOTL videos? - Yes
Lol same
Teuton Scouts are just like Monty Python's Sir Lancelot at the wedding. You'll be sorry.... in about 30 seconds.
WHEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
Could you perhaps make a video about how many land units you have to hit with demolition ships for it to be cost-effective?
You have made such an analysis about petards, concluding that they are most of the time not cost-effective. However, demolition ships have much higher attack and a larger blast radius, making it easier to pay back their cost when attacking bunched up land units in shallows.
I know it's a situation restricted to certain maps, but I think if you can pull it off on a hybrid map, it can be highly cost-effective. You don't have to hit a lot of, for example, trebuchets, to be cost-effective with demo ships. Heavy demolition ships take down a generic trebuchet in two hits, but cost less than half of a trebuchet, so that's cost-effective even if only one trebuchet is hit per demo ship. With some other units, for example gold-intensive infantry or archers, I'm certain you can easily get some great value out of demo ships as well.
What I can't estimate is if heavy demo ships would be a valid anti-trash unit with bottomed out market prices.
... in addition to possible cost-effectiveness, there's also the aspect of being able to destroy an enemy army without risking most of your own, either because you are rebuilding your forces and need more time, or because you have an army and plan to attack once you've blown up the enemy's forces. This aspect however is difficult to quantify.
Clearly this tells me that Farimba needs a buff!
I remember a game where I was doing fine.
Then the winged hussars arrived
Great video❤
So Teuton Scouts are the best, nice!
Fun fact about Korean hussars: they are so bad that they lose to Teuton scouts.
Those 5% extra attack speed might not even be relevant if the hussar has to chase after a villager.
This is probably Hera's favorite video, just a guess 11
An awesome video idea would be an analysis of the historical accuracy of Win/Loss statistics of the different civ matchups. For example spanish vs. berbers, spanish vs. aztecs or huns vs. romans and other civilizaions that famously fought each other irl, specifically looking at how or if at all that is reflected in the stats
Great video btw, I always enjoy your deepdives the most
Teutons get absolutely thrashed by Poles and Lithuanians... seems legit
Thank you, I’ve wondered about this before
Why some unique techs listed by name but others generically? Thanks for the video!
LAW OF ATTRACTION.
It's all about them wings
I would have watched a typical scenario where there is a castle, a garrisoned TC, 20 farmers and 20 lumberjacks nearby working and 30 hussars/light cav raiding them. The results of how many vils they killed would make an amazing tier list.
@spirit of the law I do personally have a rank for hussars / light cavs that can delete TCs. Ofc it is a lower priority than what you mentioned. But my ranking for it depends on how fast the tc will go down compared to enemy reaction time and number of hussars/LC dying in the process is important as well but lower priority first place you get malians "magyar hussar is higher rank but as you know harder to spam" and second should be hindustanis with 3rd as bulgarians followed by tatars and turks "purely defensively but low dps means enemies will probably react fast enough"
That said i almost never do it ourside of malians, magyar hussars and sometimes hindusranis. Because 6 dmg per attack on a fully upgraded TC compared to 3 from a fully upgraded generic hussar is day and night in difference.
Figures the Teutons have jacked LCs. Just look at their neighbors, the Goth Huskarls!
Hera, I think SOTL just made a video inspired by you! lol
nobody expects the teuton scout raid
Obviously scout cavalry are the best since they're faster \s
Magyars never get the love.
Maybe make run a villager being attack by a hussar with different speed to see if the speed has a effect on the number of attack needing.
But as regards who's got the best coolest outfit of all, Hussars take the prize
Nah, Magyar Huszar and Polish Winged Hussar are better.
👍🏻
Turks probably have the best ones just for the fact that hussar upgrade is free and the +1 pierce comes from a civ bonus instead of a UT
Hussar are the strongest unit in the game
Please Spirit, bring back the intro for all your 10+ mins videos. We all love it. 😢
Hera be like - Hussar is the most important tech in the game regardless of what SOTL or math says.
I was always upset that Polish Hussars were made as light cavalry and lack last armor, while in their prime they were heavy cavalry with good armor.
Good 👍 to 👍know 👍👏👏👏
Polish Winged Hussars with trample damage: "Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power..."
Thanks!
Deep dive??? Did i hear a rock and stone?
You can't tease us with a ranking of all hussar civs and not do it now!
see..this is why I dont play multiplayer and only fight against the hardest ai if I want a challenge.not only am I slow on the eco start but I am also aweful at the micro management for raiding. Beside I prefer infantry civ so I tend to make pikeman and skirmisher from the getgo alot XD