.38 Special Lead Round Nose Ballistic Test - 2", 3" and 4" Barrels
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Testing out the Remington UMC 158 gr LRN ammunition in 4", 3" and 2" barrels in a 10% Clear Ballistics test with and without 1/4" MDF. I also chronograph and do accuracy tests. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
If anyone wondered about what is wrong with the 856, it's definitely a cylinder stop. Nothing is gunked up, it's not the plunger or spring. It's that it appears to be the WRONG part altogether. I know that sounds weird, and I am not a gunsmith but the size of the "loop" of the stop looks nothing like I have seen before. Under inspection with sideplate removed, it is half the size of a loop than the one in my 605 or any other revolver I have ever seen. It's really baffling, but that's why the non rotation happens, as when the trigger is pressed in a normal revolver the cylinder stop prevents the cylinder from rotating clockwise right up to the point the ratchet engages and turns it counter clockwise. With the 856, because the loop is half the size of normal, the cylinder can free spin clockwise immediately, so because the last couple unfired rounds in the cylinder contain bullets and now the weight is off balance on the right side of the cylinder, gravity pulls the cylinder clockwise to the last chamber when the trigger is pressed in an endless non rotation situation.
Thanks for the update Sam. I would still send it in for warranty work. You paid for it and put it to good use.
When I managed a large sporting goods department, there was one brand that needed to be sent back to the factory for warranty work over ten times more often than any other company. That included guns straight out of the box that failed function testing before I even put them in the display case. Bet you can guess what brand that was.
@@noahmercy-mann4323 I have owned a lot of brands. Only had two revolvers fail to work, and they had the same name...
@@GunSam sorry you're having issues. If they send you a prepaid shipping box, I'd for sure send it back. Seems like their repair department has higher quality standards, and they seem to get it right the vast majority of the time.
@@noahmercy-mann4323 I think Chuck from Alaskan Ballistics CH said about the same thing .
Glad to see you running tests on the old 38 LRN. Though looked down upon by many people today, they are more effective than folks think.
Now, here's my story about being shot by a 38 LRN.
In 1978, while on patrol as a peace officer, a call went out of an aggravated robbery of an individual that was literally around the corner from my location. I ended up in a foot pursuit of the suspect. After running about 200m, he stopped and fired twice at me with a crappy old RG38. One round whizzed past, but the second hit me low going through the double thickness of the leather gunbelt just next to the speedloader pouch. I felt like I was punched in the gut with a stinging object. I returned fire with my 4" S&W Mod28 loaded with Remmington 357Mag 125gr JHP. Center punched him in the chest with two rounds at 60 ft. away. He was dead when he hit the ground.
Shortly afterwards, my Sgt arrived while I was getting statements from two witnesses of the shooting. He told me to go to ambulance nearby. I was puzzled by that. He said that I was bleeding and to go. I told him that I didn't have time for that. Grabbing my head, he forced me to look down where I saw blood running down my right pant leg. I was still working off pure adrenalin and hadn't realized that I had been injured.
The 158gr Remmington LRN had gone through two layers of the thick gunbelt, my pants, and underwear, and into my body about 2 1/2" right of the navel. The bullet had penetrated 3" into my gut.
After surgery, where the bullet had been removed, and released from the hospital, I was on light duty until the doctor's ok to return to full duty. The shooting was justified, and I was cleared by the Grand Jury and the department shooting review board.
Some years later, I began to experience digestive issues. Xray and MRI of the area revealed that the bullet had in fact fragmented leaving some pieces in my pancreas and surrounding organs and tissues. After being opened up with a 5" cut, the fragments were removed and things inside were repaired as best they could. By 50, I was a diabetic due to the loss of some function of the pancreas. I'm told that took 10 years off the back part of my life.
So, can a 38 LRN do serious damage? In my case, it sure as hell can.
Thanks for taking the time to listen to my experience with a shooting from long ago. If any of you are ever involved in a shootout, do your best to survive. And aim straight.
Sounds like you were lucky it wasn't any worse.
the round nose bullets in 38 aren't renowned manstoppers, but they are still BULLETS. Anything that puts a new hole in you is generally to be avoided.
@@TheZombieburner Yup, not something I'd recommend. And everytime Sam's talking about the test media, and does the air quote and says "gutshot" I kinda cringe a bit.
I carried an old .38 special with hollow-points while working in Israel. It served me well, and stopped a bad guy with one shot to his chest. I hate when people talk bad about the .38 because it works just fine. Hope you recover fully from your injury. 🍀
@@kevinsnyder2026 Thanks. Unfortunately, the numerous lead fragments damaged some internal organs that were not founds until some years later. By then the pancreas was almost ruined. Oh well. It goes with the job I suppose.
I'm sorry to hear that bud. I'm sure the community you were serving was well served thanks to your devotion. Wish you all the best.
While the bullet test was interesting, I think this video is much better at demonstrating why the S&W is worth the extra money.
You get what you pay for. Don't skimp on something you are betting your life on.
There was a question on a UA-cam short what's the most over rated gun brand. 4 out of 5 said smith and wesson. I was like really now they make some of the best revolvers. Ask jerry miculek.
@@scartifactsjeremyc6504 I saw that video and thought, "There's a gun store I'd never go to."
I have two myself Taurus revolvers they work just fine. Test your stuff before you carry it is what’s important.If the extra money gives you peace I say go with what your comfortable with. It’s been my experience that what your losing with Taurus is the finish over a smith or something else that cost a lot more. You can get a lemon from anywhere. Sig/glock there in the news a lot for some serious issues.
"S&W is worth the extra money."
I have to disagree. While S&W guns might be "finished" better, I don't think that they necessarily perform any better. I have 6 Taurus 85s, 3 of them 2" and 3 of them 3". Only one has ever given me a problem, and interestingly enough, it was the same problem that he has. I contacted Taurus, they said send it to us, and they fixed it under warranty. Oh yeah, I bought the gun from a pawn shop. Used.
There was a reason why .38 special was so popular with cops and mobsters. It's small and still packs plenty of power.
28 years ago my grandpa took me out on the trap line on the Cheyenne river. He brought a box of remmington .38 lrn and an old colt police positive revolver. I shot at rocks under a sandstone cliff with it. It was the first handgun I ever shot. I now have that same box of ammo and the same pistol with me now.
I'm convinced this round in a S&W Model !0-5 Snubby is perfectly adequate as a self defense round.
Roger that. ! I've regularly loaded up my 38 revolvers with the 158gr LRN rounds over the years. My RIA Model 200-38 Special, 4 inch barrel is loaded up with this load. I had a 2"-S&W Model 10 20+ years ago. Got it for $200 at a local gunshow. Damn, I wish I'd have kept it.
Perfect penetration and adequate damage. This load did pretty good for old school.
Paul Harrell has a video on this load too.
Nice shooting at 75 yards 😮
Very impressed with 2” accuracy.
Taurus does seem to make good barrels, it's just the rest of the gun needs work. I used to hit a 16" propane tank from 200 yards regularly with a 4" model 94 .22 LR. I wish I still had the footage.
@@GunSam Somehow using a propane tank as a target is about the last thing that would ever cross my mind. :-)
I love 158gr lead nose in my airweight great ammo to carry cheap to practice with
Taurus, when bang doesn’t matter.
Could Not give me one !
Thanks for sharing the Taurus potential.
Dave
Buy American when possible !!
I couldn't agree more.
I wish the new performance center we just sent in worked the way you guys say. Less than a hundred rounds and the action started locking up, hammer back with a dead trigger was fun. Apparently it isn't uncommon in Smiths from reviews I've been reading.
Lee Harvey Oswald was neutralized (killed) by a single .38spl 158gr lrn fired by Jack Ruby (11/24/63) . Like wise , Officer J.D. Tippit was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald (11/22/63) with the same exact round . The fatal shot to Oswald was a lateral belly shot , while the round that killed Tippit was the head shot (he was shot 4 times in total) . Yes , I totally agree with you , the traditional ol' 158gr rnl is definitely an effective round. Incidentally , EXCELLENT VIDEO !
Excuse me 75 yd shot with 2 incher I am impressed
38spl still works!
I bought a Taurus with bad timing straight from the factory. In double action the cylinder would stop rotating early. Luckily it was just far enough out of alignment that the primer failed to fire on the first shot I took with it. Could have been pretty scary if it would have gone off, because it was striking the edge of the primer.
I took it back to the shop that I bought it from and they sent it to Taurus on my behalf. Taurus "serviced" it three times over 6 months and claimed it was fine without fixing the problem. The shop refunded and offered me a discount on another gun. I have an old Taurus model 66 that I really like but the total lack of quality control with the more recent firearm was so disappointing that I am off the Taurus bandwagon for good.
Me also I got a Pt 22 in for service now.
Had a similar experience with one of their products, but also got great service on a different one. It seems their returns are like their QC, intermittent. Out of curiosity, round about how long ago was that?
The trusty. 38 Special, proves its worth again. Good video!
Lead is def very consistent it seems when it comes to penetration, might not do as much damage as a really good hollow point but when they tumble thats still really good damage
I always tell people if youre looking for low recoil out of a snub nose 38 or 32 that will still give you good penetration and some decent damage because of tumbling go for old school lead
Interesting thing is that Armscor has a reputation for excellent customer service. Makes me really tempted by the model 206.
They have great customer service ! Much, much better than Taurus. To be blunt - Taurus customer service SUCKS.
Wow, changed my mind on the ‘widowmakers’ for sure. I always figured they’d zip right thru doing minimal damage. But that tumbling is a beautiful sight- when it does that it’s basically acting like a much larger bullet. Not sure if it’ll replace the standard velocity 110gr Critical Defense I keep in my snubbies (couldn’t find +P) but I won’t feel under gunned if I do. Great video, thanks! 👍
Thanks
The critical defense is my choice too it seems to consistently expand to about .45 and does more tissue damage. This did better than I thought it would but still didn't outperform a modern hollow point in damage delivered.
I've currently got 158gr American Eagle LRN loaded in my RIA Model 200-38 Special - 4 inch barrel. I've used the 158gr LRN in most of my 38 revolvers over the years. In both Snubbies and longer barrels. I've honestly never lost any sleep over it.
Very consistent accuracy and penetration. It seems to be a solid round in all revolvers. I’ve always been partial to it. Good performance and low recoil. Thanks for the video for my lunch break.
👍👍very consistent penetration, appreciate the test Sam and that was really good shooting.
Thank you
75 yards.. sinks all 3 shots with a snubby.. increadible.
im really impressed!
Also i had a taurus tracker 7 shot 357mag that the timing went out on, it just started freewheeling.
Another great video bro.You're my favorite go to gun guy because you're the only person I've ever seen that understands that with semi autos the barrel length is misleading because you lose around 1 inch and a few thousands due to the fact that the chamber is included in the advertised length, whereas a revolver barrel is the true length because the cartridge is housed in the cylinder. It's also a very good idea to use mdf to make the test as "real world " as possible. I look forward to every new video you make and have went back and watched every video that you've released. Keep up the awesome work and don't change.I learn something every time. God bless and stay safe 🙏
When I bought my S&W 686 plus with a 7 inch barrel I bought a thousand rounds of Magtech 158 Grain LRN as practice ammo, figuring if I ever needed to use it for defense, at least I'd be going with a time-tested antipersonnel round. I know I wouldn't want to be shot with it!
I have been curious about these barrel lengths - good stuff.
Only had one Tarsus without issues but heard enough complaints to avoid and now have S&W.
I believe that the 38 is probably one of the most overlooked rounds for personal protection because today people seem to think that they have to have a 9mm even some shooting channels push the 9mm
But if you see the ammo shelves are almost always empty of 38 special that tells you a lot of people are still buying it
I'm glad to see this test of the old 158 grain lrn in 38 Special. It shows that it is not a weak and ineffective round as so many people think. With the current shortage of factory 38 Special ammo, I'm just sticking with 158 grain JHP for home defense and the 158 gr lead round nose for general use (pest control, varmints, woods walking, etc.). I still would rather have 158 grain semi wad cutters but, since I don't reload, they are like hen's teeth to find. I bought a box of 148 grain wadcutters for $41.99 for 50 rounds last week and I never thought that I'd pay that price but there they were and they came home with me. Again, I love your video's and your testing with the chronograph and the gel. Keep up the good work.
I do not comment very often but, maybe you should consider using the Taurus revolvers as a new fangled paper weight... Just joking a bit, not really. Honestly, I do enjoy your videos as you are honest and just tell it as it is. I learn a great deal from you and more so, I trust your research. Thank you.
It's gonna be the one lol. Like, the one I get sick of so I triple charge a .38 with low bulk powder and pull a string on it from a distance.
Great information. I have a bunch of 158 lead nose 38 and had speculated how they would behave as a defensive round. I've had an S&W 38 snub-nose for a while and now have a second S&W snub-nose 38 on order just waiting for the state background check to clear. I'm a fan of the 38 Special but my first one is DAO and I wanted to get a SA/DA, and also simply wanted another available carry gun on-hand.
May God bless the .38 Special!
It works, just old school. My Grandpa taught me a lot! How many 3.3 grain charges of powder ina pounder...A WHOLE LOTTAOF UM!
75 YARDS OUT OF A STUBBY, very nice shooting.
Good review btw
I was swapping grips on some N frame S&W & found the fat wood target grips could block cases / live rounds from ejecting if not done correctly ( point UP ) . In fumbling some rounds got under the star ... it is possible to Jam a revolver if you try !!!! With the rubber Gripper thinner grips there was more room for speed loaders & more rubber between your hand & the frame . I was wanting to keep my skin off the blue frame to avoid rust & oil off my hand .
In training we were always taught muzzle up and slap the ejecter with vigor
@@ftdefiance1 Yep at this moment I was removing live rounds , I should have dumped them in my other hand muzzle up & left the star where it was . Even with the fat wood target grips they would have dumped & not got under the star . Lucky there was no bad guy around . A speed loader would be hard to manage with the target grips .
ua-cam.com/video/vYNgNghg46s/v-deo.html Uh oh
@@danoneill2846 I remember when the cutouts in the left side grip started in 70’s. Used to compete in police matches and we had speedloaders but had trouble with some grips.
@@GunSam Looks like a gun Dick Tracy would use !! Lou Horton has always been High $$$
Thank you for all these great videos, really good content !
40,000 +++ subs on the way soon !!!!
What did Paul Harrel say when he used it against his meat target with a 1/7/8" Smith? "Seems like grandpa's ammo wasn't too bad." Thanks for the video.
That's my assessment. Not bad. I have got some comments where people flip out about my assessment of ammo like this, but they say it before the end of my videos when I say hollow points are better.
Interesting review! About taking a warrantee package to a PHARMACY: Sometimes in suburban neighborhoods pharmacies are also fully functioning retail POSTAL STATIONS (which cannot mail handguns,) and also handle UPS and FedEX (who CAN ship handguns) parcels too. They even sell fax pages since these semi-rural communities are not very computer savvy. These evolved from the olde tyme country stores that the city just grew around, while the actual Post Offices are way downtown...........................elsullo
To return packages to Amazon we drop off at a clothing store.
Hi Sam, the 158 grains lrn is said to be a poor choice but I'm seeing some good traits here. It keeps a consistent point of impact and good accuracy with different barrel lengths which is pretty good, if one has to run through his primary and bug or vice versa, there is no need to swag as to where you'll be hitting.
I shoot 158 grain 38 Special flat-nose lead ammo from 5-inch and 6-inch revolvers.
This video was very helpful.
Man, I wish my Taurus 605 Poly Defender was that accurate as your Taurus steel framed 605. I've been practicing a lot to try and get accurate shots even in single action, but no luck. I stopped carrying it as I just didn't feel confident that I could make accurate shots with it. Then I bought a Rock Island Armory M200 with a 4" barrel and wow, what a night and day difference. The M200 has a very smooth action especially the double action and the lockup and timing is tight. Also it is MUCH more accurate than my 605 on single action. The Double Action I still need to practice with as the groups open up a fair bit, but I have no doubts it will hit pretty far once I master the DA trigger. I'm using Federal 158 grain .38 Special LRN most of the time (but keep it loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain). At any rate I would highly recommend, if you haven't already, that you review the M200 (which is based off of the old Colt Detective revolvers as you probably already know). I paid only $249 for mine at Academy. I also own a RIA 1911 GI model. Both of those guns have been probably the best value I've ever gotten in handguns as they both perform superbly. Anyways.... I really hope that you review the M200 as the value that you get for the money is just incredible.
A friend has a NEW in Box 1980 ?? Ruger 357 Redhawk , SS , 5.5" for any that don't know this is a very rare revolver . It is the 2nt model made with different Number / title ... as the first run of 357 Redhawks had springs Ruger was not happy with . This has better factory springs , enough that Ruger put a different number / title on it .
This is exactly why police carried .38spl before hollow points...
It's a known Tumbler
I'd love to see the 38 special super police loads in this test medium!!!
ua-cam.com/video/-WroVmr_16s/v-deo.html
Really like the videos, not many like revolvers anymore. Fortunately I stumbled across your channel 👍
the gel block test was pretty interesting.
That actually sounds right to me about the pharmacy. I picked up a black powder revolver at the pharmacy one time.
Great stuff here, Sam. Thank you.
Hey Sam, I would be interested in seeing how the lead round nose flat point rounds perform. That bullet design is often used in cowboy loads.
That 3” 856 definitely has issues, but you are doing really well with your snubby and 4” guns.👍Back in the day I think the .38 lead 158 RN was rated about 50% for one shot stops. But it’s very consistent. So if I go with that 50% stop, I go 50, 75, 87-1/2, 93-3/4, and I’m up to 96-7/8% stopping by the time I’ve emptied my five shooter into my attacker. Ain’t math funny? But hats off to the load for consistency and easy handling.
I mean, the stop percentage won't change. One is 50%, two is 50%, three is 50% and so on. The change is in lethality. Something like one shot is 20% fatal, two shots is 80% fatal, from any caliber. Makes sense with the size of a torso, two shots is 4 times as likely to clip something vital VS one.
Beautiful property
I used to carry flush style wadcutters in my S&W police pocket 2” in 70s but but can’t remember if for accuracy, effectiveness,or that’s what I was issued for free.
Wow, and here I was thinking that Taurus had improved their quality control in more recent years. Your videos are the primary reason I haven't bought an 856 defender after being a huge fanboy when they were released.
Good testing Sam. If it gors bang and puts a hole in the target its a round to use in the current market.
Thanks
@@GunSam Yw
Sell 3 Taurus & buy 1 Smith & more amo. Your videos are very clear and precise, you are a good shot, keep up the good work. ( I have owned 3 Taurus Revolvers, 1 shot far left, another arrived with a very loose cylinder, the third one shot itself loose after 200 rounds of plinking, no more Taurus for me. I have owned Smith, Ruger, Colt Revolvers and all 3 earn an A+ from me, never a single problem 1000's of rounds. oh and both Charters were JUNK.
I have been watching your videos for quite a while and realized you have never done a video about .41 magnum. If you ever run out of video ideas, it might be fun to get or borrow a .41 from someone and test it, and/or do comparison videos with your testing techniques.
it's one of those weird things. I would like to run .41 Mag, but I don't own one because I only buy guns I can do a lot of testing with, and .41 Mag has limited options. I don't know anyone with a .41 Magnum either.
Nose profile makes a big difference in how the bullet yaws. Flat points tend to penetrate very straight, there's a reason why Elmer Keith used SWCs.
A more pointy bullet in RNL, like the Federal American Eagle 158gr RNL, will yaw 100% of the time in my observation of gel tests in demos I do in my classes.
Trivia note; the last I knew the Remington 158gr RNL was still the duty ammo of the Japanese police force, launched from a special run of S&W scandium 2" guns (model 360 maybe?)
Yeah, it's why I load the 200 gr .35 Rem bullets in .38 cases at 650 FPS, massive tumbling.
I know you handload. Check the latest Speer manual for standard pressure loads for .38 Special with Alliant Power Pistol and a 158 grain LSWC. If their test is accurate, they show 950 fps from a 4" barrel iirc. That is the best I've seen for standard pressure loads. I've shot it in several revolvers and it is very accurate - using Lasercast 158 grain hard cast LSWC and the top load shown under standard pressure load data.
This did a lot better than I thought it would.
Mostly the gun shop will only have one type of 38 special. I got some PPU ,LRN.seems pretty good for accuracy
👍😊 your good with the 4” barrel .
😳😳 wow did you see the 605 that bullet tumble like in a dryer set on low heat. That was so cool and what make this even a more accurate and fair test Paul Harrell tested the same rounds a couple years ago and the orange lung tissue was shredded pretty good which futher more proves the bullets are tumbling he was shot n from a snubby also. All I can say is il keep 5 in the 605 one speed loader and the other speed loader will be 5 357 magnum critical defense. 😁😁😁 excellent excellent test Sam your skills are EXTRA OrdInary ( in my enter the dragon voice)💪💪
Thanks lol. That old Chinese guy haha
@All Outdoors no doubt 😁
@@GunSam 😁😁
Whoohoo first veiwer comment lol.
I love your videos and tests brother.
Always clean, concise, and consistent.
Shot my new Taurus M66 357mag yesterday. It ran just as good as my GP100. Just had to adjust the sights.
I went ahead and bought a Glock 30s 45acp. Pick it up in a couple weeks.
@@richdoherty64 I had the baby brother G36 and it was an excellent pistol. It's funny because with .45 ACP, even in stock configuration in my Glock 41 Longslide I get jams and people are all like "LIMP WRIST!". When I had the super small G36 it NEVER jammed ever. I held the 30 but it was too big for me at the time. I was a lot smaller when I had my G36 lol.
Another great video, Sam!
Back in the 80's, my buddy and I reloaded about 1,000 rds. a week using wad cutters, and I remember the powder going a long way, as opposed to semi jacked. We tried to achieve the same point of aim.
Love the OG content! Nice shootin' with that snub!
Keep us updated on the warranty repair please. Great test of the old standard LRNs.
Hi gun Sam awsome video. You are shooting what i use. . My ruger security 6 4 " loves this bullet. And my charter arms 2" snubby shoots it very well also. I shoot my own 158 gran soft lead hand cast bullet. Makes for very cheep shooting. God bless AWSOME VIDEO. 😊
Gun Sam awsome shooting. Like to hear the steel ring. 😊
Gun Sam winchester primers. Is where it's at. Or federal primers. 😊
Gun Sam. I can say from experience. From hunting big game. Cast lead is very deadly on big game. 😊
Good shooting @ distance Sam!
Thank you. If I recall your opinion on the ballistics with two experiences confirms the 50% stopping power numbers.
Nice video, as usual. The old 38cal round nose should never be under estimated. If in dough, ask Lee Harvey Oswald how he liked it. I was surprised at the damage.
Ok, so I have a 2in 856, bought brand new just a couple months ago. Out of the box it was great, and I carried it everyday. Today I took it out of the holster to clean her up a little, and noticed the cylinder was spinning freely. What??? Upon examination it seemed the cylinder stop had... Shrunken in size? Impossible. So I hit the innards with compressed air via the hammer channel and the rear of the trigger. Nothing. Magically shrunken cylinder stop not engaging. Free rotation city. On to the next attempt. I knocked out the grip roll pin (hardest part of disassembly) took off the side plate, and removed the cylinder and crane. I fiddled with the cylinder stop and crane plunger (I guess thats what you call it? The spring loaded rod within the crane)
Both the cylinder stop and "crane plunger" (along with most other small parts within the frame) had a very thin sheen of dried brown grease/oil that made their free movement labored. This was applied at the factory. I dissolved it with mineral spirits. It came off after a little q-tip work (thank God) and I again hit the innards with compressed air (after thoroughly degreasing everything I could with mineral spirits, with the side plate off)
I then applied some clear Rem-Oil and buttoned her back up. Voila! Success! The cylinder stop was the right size again haha. It in fact HAD been stopped up, and a casual eye wouldn't have noticed that very thin coating of dried brown solution which turned out to be the culprit.
I wonder if this is/was the same issue plaguing your piece?
It is easy to forget that pistol calibers and bullet weights were derived from the performance of shooting pigs or other animals.
The use of Balistic Gallatin gives a more consistent test medium.
I just think we are to focused on Gelatin Block Slayers in modern handgun cartridges.
Soft lead is deadly.
That's well said. It's a challenge and goal of mine to understand how gel relates to the ability to stop a threat, and sometimes the gel "lies". Like, we all know 125 gr .357 Mag has great street cred, in gel it penetrates shallow and "explodes", but that doesn't necessarily mean if a 9mm 115 gr +P+ looks the same in gel, it's as good. Same said for other calibers. It's a challenge to compare ammo that does completely different things in gel and meet in the middle to analyze it. Like a .45 ACP Hydrashok 230 gr will look different than .357 Mag 125 gr, but both are known to consistently hit in the 90 percentile for one shot stop. Even then we can only analyze it up to a point, and say I think it would do well in the real world (for random test round), but that's the best I can do. It all has to be combined with multiple sources of information to confirm what I get in gel as being a correct story.
That's a really good shooting I reload 38 special and 9 mm I like The cast bullets I do notice they perform better And you're a 100% right about the less drag And less powder.
Thanks Sam!! You always give us info we need!!
You always have cool stuff! I was wondering if you tried 357 or 44 roundballs? I'd like to try one and two ball loads in 44 Special and possibly three balls in 44 Magnum. I always look forward to your videos
The same thing that happened to me with my Taurus 66 this happened back in 1988 I was taking a private security firearm course I got up online to shoot click click the timing was off that was 1988 I thought they had solved that problem I have a 605 627 and a Rossi 44 Magnum haven't had that situation yet embarrassing
Please try to stay with colt, ruger, smith and wesson revolvers. My experience with Taurus same as yours-spotty quality control and poor service. If you get a good one, fine, if not, NOT. Great information today, especially given the price differential and availability between LRN and "defensive ammo"in today's market. Maybe not your first choice, but no need to feel under gunned with a cylinder of 158 LRN. Maybe the old "widow maker" stories were simply ways to shift the blame for poor marksmanship!
I love my Taurus 605.... For a "toss in the fishing tackle box", river bank/ wading or kayaking.
It doesn't bother me if that one gets dumped in the water, covered in fish slime or mud. It gets washed down, cleaned, and re oiled.
Functionality testing, of course, after each servicing.
I would rather trash a Taurus than scratch up my S&W's.
Gel isn't the same as human flesh.
There have been repeated reports from autopsies describing the wound channel as "icepick like" and the bullet pushing tissue aside instead of crushing it. As to Taurus vs. Smith and Wesson. The revolver may be frustrating but it doesn't effect gel tests.
@@Michigan4Conservative As long as it functions as it should, certainly! I've had used, non-collector pieces for the same purpose over the years.
@@arnoldcohen1250
Definitely it needs to function. Crisp, smooth trigger pull is less of a concern as an ignition failure, if the tool was needing to be used.
The rounds carried, while out in less than favorable conditions, are sealed both ends of the brass (Clear spray varnish) to make sure the primers and powder stay dry.
You're right on both counts. It totally eludes me as to why anyone even remotely familiar with guns would throw away their money on a Taurus, OR A COLT for that matter, given their long track record for making junk. At least Taurus doesn't demand premium prices for their clunkers the way Colt does. Me? I will NEVER own ANY revolver other than a Smith or a Ruger.
Secondly, thank you for bringing up a subject that nobody seem to want to even think about......Shot Placement. Whenever the shooter did his part, the "widowmaker" has put a lot of criminals 6 feet under.
Some people would like to see this ammo shot from a rifle, I don't have a channel. These rounds perform amazingly in my 20" lever action. Trajectory from a 4" barrel is around -24" @ 100yds but only 8" from a 20"rifle, and is as quiet if not quieter than a 22lr.
Sam, have you experimented with turning lead round nose in to hollow points by drilling in to the bullet? Might be an interesting comparison. Thanks for doing these videos, very interesting.
I have not. I guess I didn't feel the need, but I suppose if you had a tray and a preset drill bit depth you could get them consistent.
I just got one back from Taurus firing pin fell out. Tell them send you a shipping label and you can send it out anywhere ups pick-ups are. I would put it in a plain cardboard box tho to minimize chance of theft etc. They said my gun was unrepairable n sent me new gun to ffl of my choice took 2-3 months
I learned like a month ago from ( he replied to my message)Mr. Mike Belaveu on his you tube channel that , 38 special round was developed to replace the 38 long colt cartridge which had been found to be inadequate in Philippines campaign and the 38 special rounds when introduced with cartridges ( black powder) 150 gr travelling at 890 fps ( this values are his own words ,his channel is duelists den and he is kind of historian and editor of guns of the west magazine ) I can only imagine how the custom dum dum bullets were performing then , I personally believe this 750 gr , 158 gr law enforcement 38 special rounds were set just to preserve those law enforcement weapons functioning properly in the long run; As I can see all retro S&W MP revolvers which are like even 1 century old are performing still well.
This underpowered rounds also helped ease of marketing when introducing “ the ultimate” 9 mm round as well as creating a diversified market for +P rounds.
Yet, I have seen many videos of people shooting +P 38 special rounds with pin barrel S&W model 10s .
If you also want to find a proof of power of rounds history repeating itself, I recommend you to get a TOKAREV WWII Milsurp pistol and see the would channel performance of 7,62 x 25 mt ( necked down) hollow point PPU round ( energy like low-mid 357 magnum) ravelling at 1600 fps with a recoil much less than a 9mm. …Love your videos be safe !…kind Regards …
The "tumbling" is called yaw. It does more damage.
Yaw is 180 degrees one way or another. A tumble can be 360 degrees over and over
I always learn something from your videos. Thank you for all the effort you put in to producing excellent content.
Have you ever reviewed/tested Charter Arms 38 special revolvers? I know they are not on the same quality level as S&W or Ruger, but I've enjoyed shooting several at the range.
I try to keep premium quality JHP ammo in my carry guns and reloaders/magazines. I consider that Tier 1 ammunition. Say I have had it in the gun for 2 years, then I make that Tier 2 ammo, and keep that as a back-up in the magazines/loaders in my vehicles.
But I also have some extra magazines and loaders so I have a Tier 3 ammunition; it works, not necessarily premium grade, but a worthwhile back-up to my Tier 2 back-up. It's there, it works. Maybe cheaper, maybe the best of what I can find at any giving time during the ammo crisis.
Lead bullets lead balls whether in rifle form is gonna behave effectively in soft tissue meaning more effective 1 shot stops compared to full metal jacket which were really designed to do less tissue damage for military warefare to comply with hague and Geneva convention to allow soldiers on both sides to have a better chance to survive gun shot wounds which are more treatable in a medical sense vs lead wounds during the civil war 1861-1865 great video Sam..
That old technology still works.
It never stopped.
Taurus is right that you can send a gun from anywhere you don't need to go through an FFL or even use any kind of lock.
Another good and interesting video. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks a lot!
I used to only carry federal lead round nose .38 sp because they were cheap and recommended by the funds. Sometimes the fudds are right I guess.
Just a comment on velocity, i chronographed five rounds of Remington 158 grain .38 Special LRN out of a S&W Model 65,.357 mag with a 4 inch barrel,and all rounds chronographed between 905 to 918 fps.
For further reference , early '80s Federal 158 RN Standard Vel gave just over 700fps from 4 inch . In those days , 158 RN +P was around also .
With this load it seems that barrel length doesn't really make a difference.
Good stuff, I keep a little bit of this stuff around for my snub nose, but I recently picked up a 16 inch lever gun and have been shootin this kind of ammo through it. Curious how well it would do in this kind of test, it shoots well in the gun.
LOL - I finally got the Paul Kersey shooting club shirt!
Haha
Darn a 75 ft shot with 2 in barrel good shooting
wrap the outside of the box in brown paper. worked in a warranty department for a gunmaker, that's gonna be your best option.
I grew up with family that was in businesses and we did stuff like that all the time. Even asking for paper at the grocery store to turn inside out to wrap things lol
@@GunSam haha, whatever's clever man. used to tell em on the phone to use wrapping paper leftover from a birthday, or even just duct tape over every logo or indication that there's a gun in the box.
Try a test someday with the special Garrett Cartridges of Texas loading in the 44 magnum 310 grain bullet at 1000 fps made for 4 inch barrel revolvers. Ought to penetrate deep with your 4.25 inch barrel Model 69 Combat Magnum.
Good video my friend. LRN is better what the FMJ for self defense? God bless you!!
158 grain lead would not be my first, second, third…. choice for loading my cylinder and leaving the house, or even defending the house - but performance wasn’t as bad as I understood was said to be. I’d like to see some actual FBI Ballistic Research data to compare with your results. The heavier .38 Special loads may theoretically have an accuracy advantage, and hitting the target works a lot bette than missing it.
Sorry about the Taurus but great video otherwise. I searched thru your past videos and couldn't find what I was looking for. Have you made a ballistic test video comparing a non +p jhp 38 special out of a 2 inch vs a 3 inch? While a little more expansion would be nice, I mostly prefer the 3 inch because the slightly longer sight radius is a little easier on my old eyes.
There are a lot of guys with more experience than me. I won't say they know more than I do, as far as paper ballistics go, but oftentimes real life doesn't correlate with the paper data. I've heard every horror story there is to be told about the old 158gr LRN 38 Special loading getting Cops killed by unaffected, criminally insane hulks. And I am loathe to call any one of the story tellers a liar. Adrenaline can do strange things, and that much I have witnessed (not in a shootout mind you)
What I'm beating around the bush in saying is this. The VAST majority of people, adrenaline and intent be damned, will cease to do whatever it is they're doing once you poke a hole in them with anything, and the VAST majority of criminals, as jacked up on adrenaline and illicit substances as they may be, will turn into track stars running the opposite direction at the sight or sound of ANY firearm. Do I carry LRN? Hell no. I bought the best ammo available to me. Don't need a lot of the expensive rounds. I don't plan on getting into too many shootouts. But rest assured I have plenty of the old cheap load on hand in the event lean times manifest. And if I found myself having to carry old LRN's I wouldn't be too worried about the person I may be forced to shoot soaking them all up like a Terminator and continuing on with their prior objective.
I’ve seen several dozen shootings and most involved 9mm, .380 or .25 ACP, .22 LR, and .38 Spc. All other calibers by comparison were rare as were long guns of any type in my personal experience.
Most victims were suicides, criminals shot by other criminals, or criminals shooting themselves accidentally. All other circumstances were much rarer.
Nearly all the bullets were FMJ or lead non-expanding (nearly all round nose) because bad guys usually use cheap ammo in cheap guns. A surprisingly high % of armed law abiding citizens do also.
This is totally anecdotal, but lead bullets in similar caliber usually made a bigger mess than FMJ which just go nose first right through and many folks walk out the hospital in a few hours without even needing surgery. Seen 3-4 suicide attempts with 9mm FMJ that did not kill the victim and resulted in slight to moderate disfiguration or disability. .22 LR has been the most inconsistent. Usually high fragmentation that results in either lights out or mostly superficial damage if hard bone struck depending on location and impact angle.
I cannot testify to immediate effect on target by any of these, only the end result. However it seems that round nose lead can be very effective at killing or causing serious damage, but it’s inconsistent and mostly sucks. FMJ seems to consistently suck. HPs and long guns are a whole different matter but I rarely see them used in real world shootings. Of course any bullet can kill you if hit in the right place and shot placement is still biggest factor but nothing involving bullets is a guaranteed result.
Thanks, body.
👍👍
Dang, 75 yards with a snubnose. I took my 2 inch K6S to the range this afternoon and was having issues putting shots on target at 50 with LRN. Got a few but I felt like I was either getting a lot of flyers or I really need to work on my long range shooting. I was doing better toward the end but there's real room to improve. I like the minimal recoil of 158 gr LRN's, nice to see they're still fairly lethal within reason.
Have you ever considered comparing a 32 s&w long vs a 32 acp?
Great content as always!! How about .32 long in 3 & 4 inch barrels as well?