Is Greco-Roman REALLY Best for MMA??
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- Опубліковано 5 гру 2022
- There's a theory that Greco-Roman is better for MMA, because of the similarities in stance. But is it true? I found out the answer, by using elementary school math on a questionable dataset. Which is more work than anyone else has bothered doing, so give me some credit!
My Twitter: / armchairviolenc
Thanks to Metrolina Martial Arts for letting me film in their gym! Their channel: / @metrolinamartialarts
(Metrolina MA does not necessarily endorse any views expressed in this video.)
One fun fact, Greco-Roman wrestling is very beneficial for Boxing. Anyone who pursue a career in Boxing or just to develop his skills should train a bit of Greco-Roman wrestling to improve his clinch game by a lot and move it to the next level.
I guess muay thai guys can benefit from it… it fuses so naturally to muaythai clinch
En etkili dövüş Sanatı güreş bu MMA da kanıtlandı Güreşçiler herkesi 1 v 1 de yeniyor ve en çok şampiyon güreşten çıktı
@@nain8bitlou408 türkiyenin çok iyi güreşcileri var. bunlardan bazıları mma'ya gitse belki bizim de bir kaç ufc şampiyonlarımız olabilir.
@@bobbys1308 Türkiye'de şuan bitane umutlu olduğum grecorman güreşçi var mma'da Ramazan Sarı Grekoromen güreşçi o başarılı olacak gibime geliyor bizim ülkede mma'ya destek ve yeterli ilgi olsa şampiyon çok çıkar ilgi ve destek iyi olmadığı için mma'ya girmiyorlar adının duyrulması lazım bitane Türk şampiyonun çıkması lazım UFC'den çıksa çok iyi olur ama Bellator'danda çıksa kötü olmaz Ufc'nin yarısı kadar bile etki etmez ama azar azar şampiyon çıka çıka çoğalır bu sporu yapar bir çok sporcular bu spora geçer en zor organizasyon olan UFC den çıkar inşallah şampiyonumuz En etkili dövüş sanatı güreş bizim güreşçiler keşke gitse MMA nın en etkili sporu güreştir giden iyi bitane Ramazan Sarı var şuan ondan ümitliyim Grekoromen güreşçi o güreş 1 v 1 de en etkili dövüş sanatı en çok şampiyon güreşten çıktı zaten ve en iyi sporcuların hepsi güreşçiler
If you’ve ever watched Roberto Duran fight, his in fighting looks like GR Wrestling. I completely agree with your comment.
I'm just waiting for the day you finally give thumb wrestling the respect it deserves.
Best comment.
best icebreaker when you're hitting on a girl and need to escalate to physical contact without coming off as a creep
Chael Sonnen has also said that wrestling doesn't dominate in MMA, rather that WRESTLERS dominate in MMA. He states in his fundamentals of MMA course that somebody really just needs ONE takedown that's threatening enough to keep people thinking about it. He's also stated that most of what is learned in wrestling doesn't even translate to MMA, but the GRIND does. I agree with him on all of these.
I agree with that to an extent, because no other combat sport builds mental fortitude like wrestling. The only thing if you had a kickboxer, wrestler and BJJ player, with similar skill levels. Give them a 3 month camp for an mma fight. The wrestler would probably do the best, because of the threat of the takedown.
@@rico14 What about judo. Do you think is less useful for mma compared to wrestling?
@@bruttosporcoecattivo yeah mainly just because of the gi. A lot of the stuff you learn is gi specific. It’s still better than most martial arts though.
@@bruttosporcoecattivo I would argue judo and greco are a must if you're gonna base your game around striking.
@rico14 there are specialists in no gi judo though. Islam Mackachev is really good at MMA style judo.
Growing up as a wrestler, Greco Roman was totally unavailable in my area. That doesn't mean that's true everywhere but of the places I was exposed to, Greco was just super rare. Free style really wasn't super common either. Most places in the US just have Folk style, which is what you typically see in high school and college. Freestyle stated to showed up at the college level but it's not until you are preparing for international competition does it become more super common. That's the same time that Greco Roman started to appear.
Just one American guy's anecdote and not trying to refute any of the arguments any of stance arguments.
same there were no programs in the area
I never had the opportunity to do Greco, but done judo and muy Thai for the clinch
Mike you could have cross trained in Judo with out the Gi. I have a background in Judo and have cross trained in Catch Wrestling.
Your background in Wrestling would give you the upper hand in Judo. Adding Judo would make you versatile. Look at Khabib and Islam.
@@1badz239 That is an interesting if niche background. I've never heard of Judo sans gi, is that a thing that people train much?
@@amosmj I've trained no Gi Judo since 2008 both standing and groundwork.
Here's the catch; I would train with Judo players white belt thru Black Belt; open sparring after Judo class was over
We would have 1 hour mat to our selves.
Something that was interesting to notice just based off the wikipedia articles is that just from quickly eyeballing it that there were at least 2 names that were on both the freestyle and Greco Roman lists.
I saw Dan Severn twice
its wikipedia. nothing can be trusted from there.
Tons of names were on both lists. Further, the freestyle list also lists a bunch of folk style wrestlers who might have competed a bit in freestyle, but were predominantly folk style.
In this case, the Wikipedia page for freestyle is beyond “questionable”. There are a lot of guys on the freestyle list who were predominantly greco roman or freestyle.
I was really disappointed that you didn't address the fact that in many ways, greco-roman wrestling is actually safer than freestyle when transitioning to MMA. Countless MMA wrestlers have discussed getting rid of sport-specific habits that are terrible for fighting (such as bending at the waist, hands low when level changing, etc.)
You failed to mention all the times when freestyle wrestlers get KO'd precisely BECAUSE of the level change (Ben Askren, Frankie Edgar, CHAEL SONNEN). If you would like a good example of how a stand-up grappler deals with a stand-up striker, watch one of the first official mixed martial arts bouts in Milo Savage vs Gene LeBell.
This isn't to say that your point is completely wrong, I would actually agree that in terms of comparing overall skillsets, folkstyle wrestling does fit MMA much better than greco-roman. I just think that your point about it being much easier to hit a greco-roman wrestler isn't really supported by a whole lot of evidence.
Talking about the people that got caught going for a takedown isn't really helpful. Mainly because they are an exception to the rule. Ben Askren made an entire career out of diving for a head-long tackle, and he got caught literally 1 time. That isn't evidence that takedowns are risky. That's evidence that even the dumbest, riskiest version of a leg takedown works REALLY well, and almost never gets you knocked out. Losing because you threw a takedown is exceedingly rare. Winning because you threw a takedown is common.
Greco-Roman wrestlers don't get punched on entries because they simply don't get those kinds of entries. They're not dumb enough to walk into a punch, so they either end up learning to strike their way into a clinch or, more commonly, they just shoot for the legs instead.
@@ArmchairViolence Those examples are absolutely not an exception to the rule. If you look at various regional MMA scenes with wrestling-based fighters that are much less credentialed than someone like Ben Askren, you'll see it happen quite a bit (albeit they are still dominant).
The only reason why Ben Askren was able to get away with it for so long is because no one really had the knowledge to effectively counter it at the time, especially with his level of grappling. The Gracie style of fighting was considered "unbeatable" for a while before people eventually caught on and either adapted it into their game or found ways to counter it (mostly with wrestling control or takedown defense).
I'm really not disagreeing that freestyle/folkstyle wrestling is definitively the best base for MMA, but rather that it has GLARING holes that can be exploited, even at the highest levels that really shouldn't be ignored. EVERY style does, that's part of what makes this sport so exciting. Even in cases where wrestlers strike into their level changes, they are still at risk of getting kneed or punched in the face. Curtis Blaydes vs Derrick Lewis is another example.
Its funny when people keep with the narrative that American folkstyle wrestling is the best style for mma, when you really look at the current grapplers in the ufc with best top control aren't folkstyle wrestlers, except aljo and jon jones(mainly greco) are due to their bjj.
Another thing i notice from fighters with american folkstyle wrestling background is the lack of upper body takedowns, sweeps, trips etc. Compare to the ones that come from, sambo, freestyle, greco.
Compare the amount of takedowns Ben Askren completed to the amount of times he got knocked out due to a level change.
I always thought that exclusive style wise, that folkstyle is clearly the best base for fighting. The added groundwork just adds so much more too it. In the US, most good high level wrestlers will do a combo of folk and one or both of the other two styles. So realistically all of those people were well versed in at least two of the three.
I'm not familiar with the US wrestling culture outside of the most basic understanding of how it's related to college admissions as few other popular sports. But can say that all around the world, a lot of people aiming to become professional athletes aim for the money. Anyone can transition from one sport field to another if similar enough if the available tournaments and money involved are significantly better.
Absolutely. I went to a 2 week wrestling camp, unbeknownst to me is was a freestyle and greco camp. On the mat, defense is to lay there and survive. Offense has like 5 moves. Folkstyle has so much more to it
Most folk style athletes transition to free style for the Olympics
@@bznshee not really. Most of the top tier collegiate wrestlers do end up in international competition, and I'm sure many collegiate wrestlers in general, will compete in national competitions for freestyle and Greco, but collegiate athletes are not MOST wrestlers, they are all the exceptional talent. Olympic competitors are the smallest subset of wrestlers. Out of over 200,000 folkstyle wrestlers in highschool(was 250k+ when I was in school) how many end up in a collegiate program and how many fewer end up qualifying for world and olympic competitions? It is definitely not uncommon for folkstyle guys to do training and competition for freestyle and Greco as well, I wont deny that, I'm just assuming you really meant most top level wrestlers transition to freestyle or Greco as opposed to mma, and to that I say of course, they are the most similar option that can yield some form of monetary benefit(and the glory!?)
I absolutely agree with you.
I had no idea wrestling was a thing until I joined the military years ago. All those guys from Ohio, Iowa, Michigan seemed to know how to wrestle. And here I was, a country boy from Mississippi who had never even seen a martial arts gym.
I can almost guarantee your high school even in the Mississippi country had a wrestling team.
@@connorperrett9559 You can look it up buddy. Mississippi is just now trying to wrestling back into schools. Check out the Mississippi wrestling foundation and their mission/reason for existing.
@@connorperrett9559 Sports are often cut from schools GOP-run states. Education is always different there, too. Consistently defunded and destroyed, purposely. It's almost like they need a lot of stupid people around to get elected. That last bit is sarcasm. They DO need that
@@juicicles5881interesting, I would have to lookup at this since from European's medias it seems the opposite. Talking about sports , not other parts of education
@@connorperrett9559nope, there an entire county in FL without a single wrestling team
When you explained the reasoning for why some say Greco is better, I immediately knew you were going to explain that they had it directly backwards, with the bit about going for the legs.
Hey there! Not sure if you ever plan to, but it'd be cool to see a video on "wrist grabs". Lots of dodgy information out there. Love your work man, always a treat!
Rules sets change everything. When soccer kicks and knees to the head on grounded opponents where allowed in mma. Wrestling in mma was used to keep the fight standing and less single and double legs where used.
Exactly
If you ever saw good Greco wrestler you should see those guys from Armenia, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan. The level of athletics is actually what makes them so good. In my gym we trained Greco and freestyle and this 110 kg polish guy came at our gym made backflips and other crazy gymnastic things. Imo Greco is the best base you can have and then you switch to freestyle and later if you want to MMA.
fun fact: the modern sport of Greco-Roman wrestling doesn't actually have anything to do with ancient Greek or Roman hand-to-hand combat systems, it was invented in the 19th century by a bunch of rich dudes who thought contemporary wrestling styles (especially Cornish and Lancashire wrestling that formed the roots of catch and modern freestyle) were violent blood-sport for plebs and wanted their own nobler and gentler art where they wouldn't get hurt so much.
It wasn’t really invented in the 19th century by rich dudes… it was a French folk wrestling style that they just renamed and made part of the Olympic revival because it looked like what they thought old Greek wrestling looked like
I wouldn’t call Greco-Roman Wrestling gentler though. Those guys spike each others heads with all the suplexes they focus on
@@chrisprad8325 same goes for jujitsu and judo lol. The gentle art/way of slamming people on hard surface and twist their joints
It was originally folk wrestling from the Normandy region of France. It was renamed and codified by a sergeant in Napoleon's army and practiced for military fitness. Not a bunch of rich dudes.
@@jaketheasianguy3307 "gentle art# is a mistranslation. its more like "the art of giving way", meaning redirecting force instead of meeting it head on
As much I love beautifull body lock supplex from greco, I must say free style and US collegiate wrestling is the best for seft defense. A part from the points you made in other video, in self defense, unlike mma, you have to consider weight of the opponents. If you are smaller guy, leg takedowns are much more easier than clinch.
Inb4 the pro self defense bros come in and said they will destroy your brain stem for exposing your back of the head while shooting takedowns
I would say it's exactly the opposite. Double leg takedowns against bigger guys are very high risk, especially if you don't want to slam your knee on the ground.
@@blammblamm people who believe you have to let your knee touched the ground all the time while shooting takedowns are the guys who have zero understanding of how shooting works, which leads to the long road of totally avoidable knee injuries because they actually slammed their knees on the ground like idiots
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Ok. Not very precise explanation on my part. To double leg an opponent with a 40 pound weight advantage your knee must touch the ground and you don't want to this on the street. Also being countered with a sprawl will put you in a real nasty position in a street fight (knees to the head).
Edit: But maybe it's just my bias speaking because I suck at double leg (BJJ/LL background and I'm a rather long and skinny guy).
@@blammblamm I never use double right on the get go, it's too obvious. Yy entry is always a single, especially to guys who is heavy on both of their feet. If the single fail, they're still standing on one foot, which made it super easy to keep pushing forward and transition to a blast double with your forward momentum
It's hard to compare freestyle to Greco because Greco guys often do freestyle and folkstyle too.
Every Greco guy I met, always did freestyle too.
I'd say you need both, Greco roman is useful especially when you are against the cage and must pummel.
Folkstyle.
Also (idk if people still say this) but earned a sub. I loved the counter-argument refutation style. This was like an MMA dissertation
Yes I think that's quite accurate. To support what you are saying I have watched interview with Greco-Roman Olympic bronze medalist Damian Janikowski, who transitioned to mma fighting for European KSW federation and is doing much worse than any one expected him to. In interview he said that people mistakingly assume that Greco-Roman is as effective for mma as freestyle whereas it really isn't a case and I'm finding it really hard to make a use of my wrestling in mma. I'll add also that when he was fighting against seasoned mma fighter that had good double leg attacks he actually lost most wrestling exchanges simply because he wasn't as skilled in leg attacks as the other mma fighter(despite fighting in mma over 5 years).
Do you have a link to that interview or anything? That actually sounds really interesting.
@Armchair Violence i do but interview is in polish. I will however send you a link to his fight with other seasoned mma fighter (pawlak)who was nevwr a wrestler but had a very good double leg takedowns and good overall wrestling for mma. His leg attacks were better than janikowskis and he said in his interview something in this line: people think that because janikowsko is a wrestler he should take me down but I'm actually more skilled in double leg rakedowns than he is - which he had proved in a fight
@@ArmchairViolence ua-cam.com/video/hT0OBDFqmz8/v-deo.html
Damien janjkowski is a bronze Olympic medalist in Greco-Roman roman wrestling, pawel pawlak is a seasoned mma fighter with good wrestling for mma.
In unprovoked clinch though it definitely helps:
ua-cam.com/users/shortszho1rAdLQ8Y?feature=share
@@ArmchairViolence Watching Janikowski fights you would rately think he was an Olympic Medalist in wrestling, true. But there is also Daniel Rutkowski, once a golden medalist in Polish Championship in Greco-Roman, but never went to big International competitions, who is pretty good in utilizing his wrestling, especially defensively.
But you also have to know that relatively poor career (to expectations) for Janikowski in MMA is in big part because he just loves to swing, especially when losing focus, which already proved to cost him some fights. Plus, for a wrestler, he has a very poor cardio, which makes impossible for him for example to grind out opponents and win decision. He often is cooked in 1st part of 2nd round.
Great video💪
The freestyle wrestlers dip into the specific techniques of Greco in Mma due to the fence. It’s not beneficial to shoot doubles when I’m the open space. Underhook, pinch headlock, front headlock, bodylock , high dive , are much safer in striking exchanges. Greco is very similar to Thai clinching.
Saw a lot of your older videos and I really like the old outro, any chance you can bring it back? :P
Hey, came over from Hard2Hurt ... youve got some great videos bro. Well done. Subbed
Wow!!! This video was so much better than I expected, and it is on point. In fact, Folkstyle is better in street fighting too, mainly because of the focus on controling the other fighter. That's frowned upon in MMA, but in a street fight it is richly rewarded. Randy Couture wrote a book that I read on Greco-Roman being best for MMA, but he wrestled both freestyle and folkstyle too, and did leg takedowns as did Cheal Sonnen which you correctly pointed out as an MMA fighter. Good Stuff.👍
Which form of wrestling or grappling martial art do you think would be best paired with Hema of a longsword variety?
judo, and perhaps japanese ju jutsu. In Hema I believe you can grab your opponents clothing, lending itself well to any number of judo throws, and japanese ju jutsu explicitly has many weapon based/assisted techniques.
What I personally seem to notice is that greco roman wrestlers seem to adopt freestyle wrestling at a point in their carreer anyway. Example: Jon Jones. Used greco alot in his early fights, then as time passed almost exclusively started using double legs. While I'm not as familiar with Ilia Topuria from the highlights I've seen of him he doesn't shy away from using double legs, the same is true for many other greco wrestlers.
Great video. Very good points. Especially about how folk style is probably the most effective due to its ground control. Nice 👍
Have you made/Can you make a video on which path to take for self defense/mma:
Judo first then Wrestling or Wrestling first then Judo?
I'm not considering bjj as it's not comparable to these 2 when it comes to self defense outside the bjj tournaments
I'm really am dedicated to do a boxing and Greco-Roman mix cuz im really interested what this style can shape a 2 point only fighter is capable off?
Chael will tell you that Greco-Roman is the superior base for MMA because of the upright stance and in the same breath tell you that sambo (which is freestyle wrestling with PUNCHES) is useless.
In one of the few rare times Chael wasn't spewing absolute garbage, he also conceded that Greco-Roman was for those that couldn't cut it in freestyle
A minor correction: that's combat sambo you're describing, sambo doesn't allow striking. Apart from that, I agree with your opinion. Chael says much that makes little sense, if any.
@@Vlad_Tepes_III Yeah sport sambo still allows leg takedowns, but sadly disallows chokes- which is probably why somebody invented freestyle sambo
"tell you that sambo (which is freestyle wrestling with PUNCHES) is useless."
First of all no Sambo is just grappling. Mostly like Judo plus wrestling. But more Judo. COMBAT Sambo is basically MMA. Not wrestling with punches. All strikes. Second chael didn't call sambo useless.
Freestyle SAMBO is an American variant meant to attract more Judo and BJJ players to try the sport. It does allow chokes and a minute of mat work once athletes hit the ground instead of the more rapid stand up of Sport Sambo if the ground action stalls
Sambo is not freestyle with punches, even the Combat version. It shares more with the older rules of Judo then Freestyle Wrestling as the jacket changes everything.
Great analysis
Haha I like u included the Wannanow clip when u were talking about Uncle Chael
Hey can you do a video on the striker vs grappler concept in mma and your genius opinion on it? I have heard bjj guys say that pure grappling with no striking skills beats pure striking with no grappling skills 100% of the time and that although a mma fighter with a base in striking can beat a mma fighter with a base in grappling, the grappler will dominate a little more than 50% of the time but I believe that there's more to it than that so I'm wondering what you have on that topic.
A pure grappler beating a pure striker is mostly true. However, a small bit of grappling knowledge goes a very long way. It drags the fight out much longer and gives a striking specialist a lot more time to rack up damage.
Plus, not all grappling is equal. If you are a slow, methodical BJJ guard puller, you will probably get absolutely wrecked in any level of MMA, even if you're a black belt. If you're a fast, explosive wrestler, you'll do a whole lot better.
BJJ guys are very quick to point to how well fighters with a grappling base have done in MMA, but are very slow to point out that most of those successful grapplers have a wrestling base, not a BJJ base.
Pure grapplers often beat pure strikers, but it depends on your style of grappling. And as soon as the striker learns some basic takedown defense that rule basically stops applying.
@@ArmchairViolence
Thanks for the info I have always thought that a striker would always have to learn grappling in order to survive in MMA and also a wrestler/grappler would have to learn striking in order survive in MMA. But once the grappler and the striker become complete MMA fighters neither MMA style is particularly superior than the other rather there equal.
Hey AV how tall are you? I'm sure you've mentioned it in other videos but I'm new to your channel.
He says somewhere that he's "perfectly average" height, so he's probably 5'9", which is the average height for men in the U.S.
Quality video, well reasoned
Yo, could you cover the pankration style of fighting?
last question: how the hell do i find a place to find folkstyle (collegiate) wrestling because i haven't gone to college
If there's a public university with a wrestling club in your area, it's likely open to community members. Not the official team, but a club.
The next best option is to find a former wrestler to teach you. Public wrestling classes are rare but former wrestlers are very common.
@@ArmchairViolence thanks for the tip. i found a couple clubs to check out before i head for college.
an exclusively no-gi bjj gym i'm gonna join will complement nicely with the wrestling.
Speaking of wrestling, what's your opinion on catch-as-catch-can?
An acknowledgement of academic method while geeking out on MA, but served in a fast and easily digestible package. Good job :-)
You hit the nail on the head when you said smaller technical range means athleticism matters more. The prime example of this is boxing which is exclusively using your hands to beat up your opponent. Good video 👍
This is a good example of why technique heavy systems, mainly eastern styles have a tough time against more athletic dominant systems. Chinese martial arts (excluding Shuai Jiao and modern Sanda/SanShou) for example are so form and technique dependant that they fail to address the physicality of the opponent, but instead have existed in their own vacuum of sorts for centuries, only testing their methods against other practitioners training the same way. What is left is a big mess of technique acquisition with poor means to actually apply it against anyone not also doing what they do. Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut were the best attempts to break this mold but still fall short due to similar circumstances of mostly only sparring within their own vacuums/communities. Sorry for the rant, I love talking about martial arts.
@@rafaelcarrera9436 This is also why I actually have more respect for even the modern Shaolin temple as from what I have seen so do quite a lot of body training and sparring. Knowing a technique is not all that is needed, you also need to do it by reflex and have the required body. In a heavy technique system so does that take more time then most people that do it as a hobby can manage.
I am in the Midwest which loves and breathes wrestling. Youth wrestling from fun club to national teams is primarily folk. High school is folk. There is a short Greco and free style season, very little emphasis and not near the athletes. Internationally they wrestle primarily the international style (free style) and have huge crossover with judo and sambo athletes that have a lot of popularity and many cross over techniques. The non Greco folk pool in the US vs internationally is enormous compared to Greco. Now to be fair, most US Greco guys also are great folk wrestlers. They might not be tier 1 but tier 2 with Greco is potent. They know how to sprawl and shoot etc especially when a guy is hurt or isn’t as good in wrestling in general. See Randy couture. I tend to think chael is right. I think the Greco, judo, sambo styles are under represented but because of the upright posture, takedown/throw mastery and the ability to pick up wrestling/grappling/anti grappling they are more holistically suited. Just my opinion.
I don't really care much about wrestling at all but your charisma hooked me lol
What do you think of Machida karate, man?
I think it comes down to something very very simple. What’s the highest percentage wrestling move in Mma?. Double leg, single leg and body lock. The two previous moves I mention are illegal in Greco Roman
Yes, Americans tend to do freestyle at a slightly higher rate than Greco, but both typically do folkstyle.
…And Greco does shoot. Greco has most stringent stalling rules.
I believe that the key factor to look for is the folkstyle/Greco guys plus anyone who wrestled from a tie position in freestyle and/or folkstyle.
I did folkstyle wrestling for 4 years in highschool. Then after I graduated I went into kickboxing. And the teacher for kickboxing was impressed by how agile, *resilient*, responsive and *knowledgeable* I was because of it😅 because I found ways to use methods I learned in folkstyle to slip under people’s attacks when I started MMA which made me dangerous to face in a general MMA fight.
However the downside I learned really quick was the fact that being right handed for both Wrestling & Kickboxing means I have to switch back and forth from orthodox to southpaw and back again. Which means I would be at a disadvantage towards an aggressive opponent like an aggressive inside boxer or a person who has more aggressive taekwondo kicks.
However The good news is that the knowledge of Wrestling made me a lot more comfortable around fighters who do Judo, grappling Sambo & tong soo doo. And made me comfortable training in BJJ, JJJ, Judo and Krav Maga because of being on my back and having a quick escape and get up.
So Folkstyle helped me get off the ground but not so much to getting Knocked onto the ground. That’s why I moved into kickboxing to cover up from being knocked to the ground.
So Now I’m 21-22 yrs old in MMA🎉
Me when hug my homies :You fools this is not a hug , this is suplex. 💪
How much time is spent in the clinch vs the ground or in striking range during an MMA match?
Depends on the matchup. A quick glance through UFC archives will show you examples of all three being the predominant position, although the clinch in particular probably gets the least screen time off the top of my head. Then again, if the fighters wind up against the cage, there may well be a lot of clinch work.
Yeah, clinch is very common against the fence, but rare in open space. And, if you're against the fence, the whole clinch game is now radically different, so Greco-Roman doesn't transfer 1-to-1.
@@ArmchairViolence That makes sense. How much time is spent clinching against the fence vs grappling on the ground against the fence ?
@@someboi4903 No idea. That one varies wildly between each fighter, and we'd need actual statistics to get an answer on that one.
Good video.
American Folkstyle is absolutely the best wrestling style for MMA because of the emphasis on top control and bottom escapes, but one thing I think gets overlooked about freestyle is the wrestler's ability to break an opponent down from a 4-point base/quad-pod. Folkstyle does have the best riding techniques but a 2 point score is given if you are behind your opponent, covering the hips, with weight on the hands. Freestyle doesn't award you a score from behind your opponent unless a knee or hip comes to the ground. So, while freestyle doesn't have as many useful top control techniques, they do have one very important one for fighting in MMA
That is very typical in the US. Deep folkstyle roots with little to no Greco or Freestyle. I think you need to do all three styles to be good in mma. Freestyle probably the the worst style for mma. Really a super basic leg takedown works when you are striking. Being really good a riding or the greco clinch gives you the ability to grind your opponent down.
Putting aside athlete population, athleticism of athletes in GR vs FS, what about just comparing the techniques…?
Upright stance of GR closer to MMA striking, but FS leg attacks is just tactically proven by attacking MMA grapplers- GSP, Khabib, Cormier etc.
(Sorry, started writing this mid way through video, and now we’re making the same points!) Great video.
Brave choice to go into an argument with statistics against the unbeaten champ. His reality transcends statistics and data.
I would like to hear you tell us what Greco is good for
I trained folk style and Greco, you can 100% of the time defend a single or double while standing straight up…. I do it every time I grapple, it’s about reaction time (and moveset obviously) Greco Roman wrestling is mostly about throwing someone on their back or head.. there have been countless knockouts from slams in MMA.. folk style is a more well rounded art because they focus on ground control heavily as well as standing techniques. I always thought everyone gets two years of folk style wrestling, and then you get to choose between Greco, Roman, American freestyle or both. Texas wrestling hits different, just my opinion
Getting closer to 15k everyday.
If you want to go full grappler style do freestyle if you want to be a hybrid that likes striking but doesn't want to keep shooting for takedowns use greco roman because it will help you in the clinch🗿
You forgot to mention Randy couture, because Randy couture used his Greco Roman wrestling style extremely well, in MMA, because he integrated dirty boxing with it. Nobody did it better than Randy and I agree with folk style wrestling in MMA more than I do with freestyle wrestling in MMA. But again, Randy was the king at using Greco Roman wrestling in the cage with his dirty boxing.
It's best for the wrestling while standing aspect of mma. Once you're on the ground folk style becomes better because you can control and keep your opponent on the ground
I miss the outro song
In the US at least, freestyle is far more popular than greco. I feel like it’d be hard to find an exact number online however.
In finland i havents seen any greco roman wrestling places i have only seen freestyle ones, i was looking for martial art gyms and thats were i know this info
Greco Roman takedowns are used in dirty boxing exchanges typically, not just pre contact. This point is huge btw
True
True. Greco Roman is amazing as a secondary martial art for those who come from a boxing, kickboxing or thai boxing base as the clench work is a straight upgrade to their arsenal rather than trying to learn an entirely different world of grappling with freestyle wrestling. Something I started to pick up recently, although sadly there are no greco-roman places in my area so I will have to rely on my totally straight gym bro and some youtube guides.
Man I just had a better "connection" with Greco-esque techniques (stuff above the legs I mean)
The awkward bent over position I got used to and stuff, but I could never really connect with more folk or freestyle techniques compared to greco/above leg
I will say though that I never got the luxury of attending a greco school and ended up testing and trying it out against other wrestlers in clubs or school practice (I think the teachers I had for wrestling club were more folk oriented due to them drilling into my soul the whole "GET THE FUCK UP ON YOUR FEET NOOOOOOW")
But yeah I do agree heavily with you over this despite me still liking how much more "handsy and hip oriented" greco is (which once again, I connected with more and had a significantly easier time learning and implementing)
I've had a pet theory about this for a long time. I agree that Greco is probably the least useful wrestling base *on its own* . I think we see this with a lot of international MMA athletes from places other than the U.S. or Russia, who learned Greco pretty much exclusively as an Olympic sport "with an empty cup" before making the jump to MMA. Their leg attacks and their defenses against them just aren't that developed. Sometimes their top control suffers, too.
However, where I think Greco really shines is when you have an MMA athlete with a base in Greco alongside other forms of grappling. You sort of touched on this toward the end, but it's practically unheard of for any given American Olympic-level Greco guy to not have a significant background in Folkstyle, usually having come up wrestling in middle school, high school, college, etc. Those two systems blend together extremely well as a combined wrestling base in my opinion, with the top control and scrambles (offensive & defensive) of Folkstyle complementing the comfort in the clinch positions of Greco and its supposed "upright posture" benefit (which is arguably overrated, but bear with me). The wrestler in question would be left with a pretty vast arsenal of takedowns to call upon -- both upper-body and lower-body -- with plenty of experience employing them at any given range, from out in the open cage to dirty-boxing in the clinch. Not to mention the experience defending against these same things.
The same can be said for many fighters from the former Soviet Bloc nations who come from Greco bases. A considerable number of them have *some* other kind of grappling background, whether it's Sambo, Judo, Freestyle, Pankration, ethnic folk wrestling, or what have you. And while Dagestani Sambo fighters with Freestyle bases have dominated the scene and popular consciousness in recent years, we've seen some very solid guys with Greco bases emerge, as well like Movsar Evloev, Ilia Topuria, and Magomed Ankalaev -- all of which are uniquely well-rounded by blending their Greco with other forms of grappling.
I have no real basis in fact for this, it's just a general impression that I've garnered in my time watching the sport.
I agree completely !
Greco Roman translates so well to mma because the athlete is more “open minded”.
The drilling repetitive bent over nature of freestyle etc really hamper the freedom of an athlete especially if they trying to learn new skills .
It’s hard to unlearn and adapt to an open minded mma scenario
Folkstyle is 80% pushing and 20% pulling. Freestyle is 60% pushing and 40% pulling.
Greco is 90% pulling and 10% pushing.
You tell me what matters when you are going for a takedown against the cage - pushing or pulling.
Why does this man only have 13k subs?!?! Subscribe ya Bozo’s
Definitely enjoy your content. Stand-up wrestling (such as grecco roman) give you essential stand-up clinch skills, posture and conditioning, which is essential in MMA and not necessarily incentivized in ground base wrestling (such as freestyle)
And the standing clinch position has become vitally, important, especially as more people are becoming used to dealing with leg attacks and scrambling.
So I would say that spending sufficient time developing Greco-Roman like skill sets for mma is extremely important and not just relying on single and double leg shoots/takedowns
Not trying to say that Greco is better than freestyle… But, when it comes to mma, the the conversion of skill sets have to be more comprehensive.
Since theres no folkstyle after college, it has non existent representation outside of the US or after age 23ish. An americsn wrestler who has a base of folkstyle from age 5-22, then moves to greco or freestyle for a few years, what are we considering them?
Randy Couture did both, but is largely known for his Greco-Roman / flathand clinch game with boxing. (That being said, he also had a lot of submissions up his sleeves from catch wrestling, and wasn’t a one-track fighter by any means)
What i am interested in is if Greco Roman gives some specific advantages that Freestyle cannot.
8:25 what about Armwrestling
This why I follow you
I have no doubt that free style is at least five and a half times more popular in the US.
Very interesting very cool
I don't get this dilemma, everyone knows the best is Sumo.
What about the clinch? Greco guys seem to do pretty well with clinch boxing in mma
Does the word freestyle in freestyle wrestling mean that the wrestlers are generally less impeded than those who practice Greco Roman wrestling? If so, I may be able to see why a lot of rebellious individuals might prefer it, even if only because of the names lol
Also the threat of keg attacks can really fuck up someone's striking game. I don't think I so far to say Grecko is the least useful though. It still seems very useful once in the clinch.
In Brazil they have very little Wrestling. It's mainly BJJ/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu which is popular\spread in Brazil (also, Luta Livre and Judo). - That;s why there's so few Brazilian fighters with Wrestling background in MMA! That's mainly BJJ and Muay-Thai. Wrestling is a big culture in Russia and other ex-Soviet republics, but Russian/ex-Soviet wrestlers only recently started to get interest in MMA! ))))
Back in the 90s Brazilian Top Team brought in several top American wrestlers to instruct their team. Darrel Gholar being one of the more notable names. This allowed BTT to more effectively apply their already world level BJJ base. Arona, Filho, both Nogueira brothers, Bustamante, Sperry, Brazilian Top Team back in the day was one of the best mma camps in the world, and few have had as much world level success since.
Caught this pretty quickly
I don't know much 'bout popularity, but it seems that in my country (I'm from Finland) Greco-Roman is more popular (though we do have sports clubs that do freestyle, too)
In The Part of Finland where i live, there are almost only greco Roman wrestling places
By folk style do you mean catch as catch can?
No, folkstyle is the American wrestling tradition practiced in schools and universities. It's specific to the U.S. but it's exceptionally common here.
@@ArmchairViolence Ah yes, great video by the way, it’s similar to catch but with fewer submissions.
Chael has said Greco > Frestyle but American Folkstyle > Greco
If in doubt, ask Chael - the opoositie of what he claims is true.
"You have 2 UA-camrs giving you advice. One always lies, and one always tells the truth. You can ask one of them a single question to determine your martial arts success..."
@@ArmchairViolence There is a reason I stopped studying philosophy and graduated in English and German - yes, it was the logic seminar. ;)
I believed that greco was best, but I have to admit you made a great argument. Good video
You had me at CHAEL.
me too
I feel like sambo guys and Greco have the best cage control they were like the first guys to use the cage as a weapon and they still use it very effectively.
What about judo
Totally agree about Folkstyle.
I came for the wrestling, but I stayed for the methodical demolition of the confounding variables. My inner martial artist and inner scientist are equally satisfied.
What is follstyke
My understanding is that " (American) folkstyle" is the United States' local style of wrestling. It's widely practiced in high schools. The rules are a bit different from the Olympic styles Freestyle and Greco-Roman.
@@institches2750 thanks for explaining
I CAN'T LET YOU GET CLOSE
I agree and disagree. You make it seem like grecco wrestlers are always just walking upright during their matches, which just isnt true. They still level change like any other wrestling style. They still have to do duck unders, lateral throws, shrugs, suplexs, etc. all requiring dropping your level. You showed pretty much the same clip of those 2 dudes walking into each other, but not everyone wrestles like that in grecco. That being said i do think freestyling maybe does transition better because of being able to let you use more moves making more versatile in those situations on the offense and even more versatile in how to defend those moves.
Brings facts. You don't like his facts? Give money. Love this guy.
When I set you to 2x speed you sound like Jeff Nippard :D
8/13 for Greco is better than 19/71 for Freestyle.
Randy Couture is a good example.
Turkish oil wrestling is actually the best style for MMA. The other wrestling styles are only effective for dry hump contexts, but once you add sweat to the equation you’ll see that the dry wrestlers are usually dead in the water.
No.
Next question?
The people who do greco seem to be notably less likely to transition to MMA relative to freestyle
Also the fact is that the most optimal route to enter a stand up clinch for upper body throws are usually came from a failed leg takedown.
Failed the single leg ? Just slide the arm right up and you have yourself an underhook for an upper body throw. Greco is just as useful as Judo when it comes to MMA. It's a good place to start your martial arts career but there are still way more superior alternatives when it comes to "the best base martial art" for MMA
"Greco is just as useful as Judo when it comes to MMA." False, maybe no-gi Judo but not Judo in general, Im a wrestler myself and we have plenty judokas at our gym who had to switch their game because of all that gi work. "but there are still way more superior alternatives when it comes to "the best base martial art" for MMA" Ok, tell me about those martial arts, I would like to know which martial arts are a better base than wrestling, even if you ask most MMA fighters they themselves will tell you that wrestling is the best base and if you look at the success of most wrestlers in the MMA game youll see why. Im curious to know about those martial arts which are WAY MORE SUPERIOR than wrestling when it comes to MMA
@@amicellnandan3245 like in the video said, better alternatives than Greco and Judo are the styles of wrestling that allows shooting for the legs. Go read everything all over again before you fallen off your high horse while starting an argument, good sir.
Also, Judo is as useful as Greco as a good starting point for martial arts career, like I wrote. You get to learn off balancing people, throwing people with live resistance, that's it. Again, read the whole thing all over again, slowly
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Youre right, I was wrong, I misunderstood your comment, my apologies. Im still not on the same page with that Judo is as useful as Greco when it comes to MMA, I mean I dont know what a martial arts career can be, its a very broad statement but if we talk about MMA then no, greco IS superior to judo for MMA, the GI vs NO GI apsect makes a huge difference but if were talking about NO GI Judo then thats another story
@@amicellnandan3245 unlike greco, judo allows leg trips which are very useful in MMA. Also, Judo teaches ground fighting much better than either greco or freestyle, albeit less well than BJJ. Many judo moves are not that hard to translate to no-gi and are VERY useful in MMA. One last thing: it is my personal belief that Judo will teach a person to be "sense" their opponent's balance, and thus act on it, much better than any other style, precisely because training with the gi allows for more time "connected" to your opponent, as well as the focus placed on those very subtle balance elements in the way it is taught. Honestly, Judo's strength is simply its pedagogical methods devised by Kano Jigoro. Sure, a judoka with no no-gi experience has a huge gap to cross before he can be as effective as a wrestler in a no-gi situation, but give him some freestyle training and he will quickly be formidable.
@@lebatcritique I agree with some statements but I could reverse your argument, you said "but give him some freestyle training and he will quickly be formidable.", well, give a wrestler some BJJ or Judo training and he will be quickly formidable as well, though I agree that a Judoka could accustom faster to no gi than a wrestler to BJJ or Judo, it would still be a quick learning experience, I mean its all grappling and the fundamentals stay (kinda) the same, so you see where Im getting at? If were looking at both of them in a pure state, I think greco has the upper hand but if its no gi Judo then its a different story, like I said. I think a big difference between greco and judo would be the trips and the body locks, while greco does no tripping, judokas dont do any bodylocks at least for competitions and I think many judo clubs have watered down because of this because many only train what is going to be used in competition, kinda like the same watered down versions of what happened to taekwondo and karate but old school judo still does body locks, as far as I know
Chadi the guy from the judo channel interviewed a guy whi is a judo bosck belt/former olímpyc wredtler and bjj black betl, this guy also came to the conclusion that folkstyle was the best for mma, he saidit in the ibterview