Heated Chambers: Game-Changer for 3D Prints?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Thanks to QIDI for sponsoring this video. Check out the QIDI X-Max 3 here geni.us/QIDI3D and get a special discount with code CNCKITCHEN30
It is common knowledge that higher technical materials should be printed in a heated chamber. But why do they warp less when printed in a warm environment, and how much stronger do they get? I used the QIDI X-Max 3 with its actively heated chamber to test exactly this out and investigated the layer adhesion of ESUN ABS and Prusament PCBlend when printed at different temperatures! Let's find out more!
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
01:04 QIDI X-Max 3 Promo
02:00 Test Setup
04:58 Why do prints warp less?
06:35 Strength Tests
08:49 Why are hot prints stronger?
10:49 End part
#3Dprinting #strengthTest #QIDI
DISCLAIMER: Part of this video was sponsored by QIDI3D.
FTC Disclaimer: A percentage of sales is made through Affiliate links - Наука та технологія
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QUESTION: Should all enclosed 3D printer use an active heater or is this something for industrial printers?
@cnckitchen what stealth burner faceplate is it you are using?
Just my personal opinion: it ultimately depends on the materials that one commonly prints with. Active chamber heaters are commonly PTC and can be an electrical hazard if not implemented properly as seen in this video, ua-cam.com/video/81M_4skLzUM/v-deo.html&pp=ygUKcHRjIGhlYXRlcg%3D%3D. However, printer manufacturers who target the prosumer market should delve more into this aspect. It's not entirely illogical to assume that the buyers of such printers are interested in making usable parts for their business. This is the way forward.
It is what Stratasys, Markforged, 3DXTech, Essentium, etc. are doing - albeit at much, much higher chamber temps and point of entry.
I watch your video with subtitles and the charts bottom text always got hidden by it. Could you consider moving the charts a little up please?
@@felipenavasYou can set this up yourself in the youtube settings under Subtitles, where you have the freedom to change their layout, size, etc…
Stefan, Ich besitze den x-plus3 und möchte nur darauf hinweisen dass man definitiv vorab das aktuellste Firmwareupdate auf den Drucker laden sollte, bevor man mit ihm richtig druckt! Die Updates bringen in meinem Fall fast immer signifikante Bugfixes, Performanceverbesserungen, und sogar neue Funktionen! Hast du das Video denn überhaupt mit der aktuellsten Firmware des Druckers gedreht? Gerade dass die Chamber-temp. nicht den Sollwert erreicht kommt mir etwas verdächtig vor…🤔 Toller Content in jedem Fall, ich bin ein mega Fan deines Channels 😍
English.
I own the x-plus 3 and realized the importance of their Firmware-Updates for their ner Devices, as they will always at the very least improve the printer‘s performance (like the bug that was shown where the enclosure didn‘t properly heat to the set temperature) and in most cases bring some added functionality for the on-screen menu, and at the very least make the printer more reliable!
So I am now wondering if you did start the Video about the Printer with the latest firmware installed, as many reviewers have complained publicly on youtube about problems like bad printing quality and bad performance due to some bugs and missing features, just because they didn‘t even bother to install the latest firmware and were hence reviewing a device, literal months after Qidi released an update with all their issues fixed🤦🏽♂️
Stratasys had a patent on heated chambers. That slowed down the commercial competition by over two decades.
Well fuck them.
Fortunately "HAD". One of the big patents that they had were the movable curtains to separate the chamber from the printhead and motors, which is very important if you want to go even higher higher in temperature.
* laughs in piracy *
Wait, you can patent hot air?
Apple (design)patented a square with round edges as far as i know. So i think you can get patents on nearly everything. 😂
I made an actively heated chamber for my ender 3 as part of my diploma.
in short:
- ABS at 65°C (chamber) - cca 60% better layer adhesion
- PETG at 50°C (chamber) - cca 25% better layer adhesion
- PLA at 40°C (chamber) - cca 10% worse layer adhesion
Also huge improvment in dimensional accuracy for the printed parts...
(i also got the inspiration for te layer atision test from your chanel so thank you! ;) )
Damn now I want to find a university degree where screwing around with my printers is something accepted as a scored essay LMAO
Is the thesis available somewhere? Might actualy try out PLA and PETG on the machine to see at which point I run into heat creep problems.
@@p_serdiuk Well if you use 3D printers for printing toys and crap with no functionality whatsoever then yeah you are screwing around...I turned a cheap "toy" into a reliable tool. I certainly don't need validation of my degree from you.
@@zanmarinic I use printers to make drone parts and outdoor stuff so it's a valid tool, it's just hard to turn a hobby into a profession and very few people manage to achieve that
@@CNCKitchen Since the thesis is in Slovenian I doubt you could get any use out of it :)
To answer for PLA and PETG... for layer adhesion test I printed hooks (similar to the ones at 10:42) and since the prints were relatively small I could go to 40°C for PLA and 50°C for PETG. But when printing bigger parts/longer prints you need to lower PETG chamber temperature to 40°C otherwise you get a clogged nozzle..at least I did. For PLA I cant tell, since I don't use it much/didn't test it on larger prints...
The tape analogy at 5:45 is a great visual example for warping
Thanks! That's actually my most disliked video and I honestly don't understand why...
ua-cam.com/video/HNAtHl6kB7Y/v-deo.html
I've been waiting for you to make this video for years. According to a friend who has a printer with an active chamber that goes up to 100 degrees Celsius, ABS needs 70+ degrees, optimal is 80 degrees. At that point the print orientation doesn't matter. 70 is the minimum accordning to him, I imagine if you had a printer with 80 degrees you would get even more increase in layer adhesion.
I made an active camber myself... above 65°C you start to get issues with heat creep... for 70°C+ you need a watercooled hotend, otherwise you jam your nozle with biger prints..
I run my machine at 70C and use a watercooled extruder stepper. Despite this I am bottlenecked by extrusion speed. The external dryer also runs at 70C. In the summer the watercooling radiator is not powerful enough and extrusion starts to fail if I let room temp reach around 30C. So I use AC to keep room at 25C. In the future, keeping the filament at 25C prior to reaching the extruder gear might allow faster print speeds on my machine.
@@hc3d Yep, watercooled hotend is a must for higher chamber temps.
Currently I'm at a 70-73c machine doing abs, havnt needed water cooling yet. But it definitely does need cooling😂
@@redboom9874 It depends how good the heatbreak and fans are. Fans differ a lot in performance. With a heated chamber cooling requirements increase dramatically. The goal is to cool it slightly below glass transition temperature and let it stay at that temp for the entire print. Glass transition for pure ABS is like105 Celsius. I think the filaments have additives that make them more printable and that's why they have lower glass temp at 90 C.
Thank you for showing these results. This is very interesting, and definitely will help to improve part strength!
I really like these questions. This is why I love your channel
This is exactly the information I needed to decide on my first 3D printer. Thanks a lot!
As you mentioned, the heated build chamber will give the layers more time to melt into each other. This also explains why slower printing resulted in stronger parts in some of your previous tests.
Another issue to take into account is shrinkage. PLA shrinks about 0.3 - 0.5%, ABS 0.7 - 1.6% and ABS/PC Blend 0.3 - 0.6% (depending on the type of blend). Nylon (PA) is even worse. Depending on the type this has up to 2% shrinkage making it very prone to warping. Adding glass or carbon fiber as a filler material reduce shrinkage so those are easier to print.
I think there is uneven shrinkage during cooling and most shrinkage might occur as soon as the temperature drops well below the glass transition temperature. This could also be a reason why materials like ABS (Tg = 105C) and PC (Tg = 145C) almost require a heated chamber whereas PA (Tg 45 - 70C).
It would be nice to compare especially ABS and ASA in this respect. Both have around the same Tg (ABS 105C, ASA 100C) but ASA has a lower shrinkage (0.4 - 0.7%)
i'm happy to see you finally using filaments from brands ppl actually use instead of some niche ones available only in germany
Thanks for this video! I have an X-Max3 at home, which I bought because I wanted to print in higher end materials like PC and Nylon. At work I run a fully enclosed industrial printer with water cooled heat break and motors, and a chamber temp up to 135C! The heated chamber definitely makes a difference. I never get parts detaching from the bed or layers delaminating. I'm still working on figuring out how to prevent the filament from curling up on steep overhangs, though.
I used a cheap food dehydrator as the active heater for my TEVO monster enclosed by cardboard panels. Although the camber temperature maxed out at 50C I was getting ABS prints at the same quality as PLA, and ABS was my standard filament in that machine. It also helped to have the part cooling fan set to 10-15% during printing.
Man I just love your channel!
Thanks for the tip. I was planning on using an unheated garage for my 3d printing room so this saved some headaches.
I built a heated chamber for a printer years back and the goal was 70c and I learned A LOT from that. 1) Don't use a bed slinger! Core XY is a must. It helps keep the plastic and electronics out of the heated chamber. You don't want the plastic to be soft before it hits the extruder gears. 2) Don't use acrylic for something going that warm, at least not thin acrylic. It will soften and sag. 3) If you're using a metal frame, definitely consider water cooling your motors. Especially at around 60-70°c your motors don't like running that hot constantly. A metal extruder will cause issues as well.
Now this is the content we have come to expect from you, nice job.
Thank you for this, Stefan! I’ve been wondering about this for some time, but don’t have test equipment…
I'm just starting to get into 3d printing, and I just saw one of your strength test vids where you annealed the part. I've been wondering why that's not more common, and was actually going to test this very thing on my own. Super perfect timing, love the vids.
Because it really messes with dimensional accuracy. When you heat it up to glass temperature it expands in pretty uncontrolable ways. It really makes it unpractical for most uses and kind of makes any kind of accuracy in printing pretty pointless.
Great video, and something I looking into right now for my structural parts. Are you able to expand on this and also look into print speed and part cooling against enclosed and or heated?
Loved seeing the thermal cam footage of the printing. Line chasing the printhead.
Awesome! This was exactly what I wanted to know before buying a Qidi. Thank you!
something about passive heating: With just the addition of a few fans below the bed of a Voron 2.4 350 (kit from LDO), If I print with a bed at 110 like shown, my machine end up reaching an equilibrium at around 64 celsius. but that takes quite a bit of time to reach
I just added a chamber heater to my VZ Bot (the exact same heater module that it seems qidi are using apparently). It has improved my ABS performance considerably. Once the bed got to the lower half of the machine the interior temperature up near the extruder started dropping and the upper halves of tall prints would start delaminating.
What module are you ysung muy friend?
Great video as always. Active heated chamber is a must.
I greatly appreciate the channel. As a beginning maker, it would be great if you could do an in-depth video on how to calibrate a printer to a filament - everything from printing blocks to dial in extrusion, to temp towers, to retraction, top speeds and the dozen most common / useful slicer settings. I've looked around UA-cam for this, and there doesn't seem to be anything really good and in-depth about this topic there. With your systematic, analytic, pedagogical approach this should be a video many would enjoy.
Nice vid Stefan 👍
Very interested in the Qidi, thanks for the review 👍🏻
Danke Dir, deine Beiträge sind immer interessant und sehr gut gut Illustriert. Mach weiter so!!Du bist eine echte Bereicherung in der 3d-Druckgemeinschaft Gruss aus den Alpen Pat
Stefan, another excellent test protocol and excellent video. I’ve done a lot of testing with active chamber heat using a very hacked-together system. I had very similar results to what you’re showing. Where I got stuck was trying to make a more production-grade system; I couldn’t find a 24V active heater which I could integrate easily and safely. (I’m also not a hardware guy so I needed something really drop-in.) I was especially worried about fire safety. Once I bought a LDO Voron kit with its huge heat bed spreader I figured the problem was sufficiently solved. I could add a little bit of air circulation to that and get reasonable chamber heat as a secondary effect.
great video! what is your opinion about leaving the parts to fully anneal after printing with heated chamber? After the print leave the printer closed until chamber temp reached close to ambient.
Great review Stefan!! I‘d really would love to have the X-Max for the spine project that I‘m working on at the moment.
I didnt yet thank you for your great videos. Really appreciate your work and consitent quality over the years! btw. thanks for the "fehlerbalken" in your diagrams
Very tempting printer especially being integrated with Prusa slicer (ex-slic3r).
This is pretty much my experience with ABS on my original Ender 3 - I built an enclosure using that 1" pink foam stuff that builders use for insulating houses, and inlaid aluminized bubble wrap.
Cut a window in it for a flap of perspex and it works really well - temperature gets up to around 65 °C too just using the bed at 105 °C. Also uses less electricity because less energy is needed to keep up the bed temp. It takes up a lot of space though, but is a cheap solution. Plus, the enclosure is also a useful box to store freezables while defrosting the fridge freezer!
Did you move the LCD enclosure or any other of the electronics of your Ender out of the heated chamber? Stock belts and steppers operate ok at these higher temps?
@@alangustaveson1461 Enclosure open at bottom, but sealed to prevent air convecting up and out. Display untouched, but just below bottom of enclosure so not so warm.
Moved PSU to bench. Made 3d printed guide for ambient air to reach electronics.
Steppers/belts fine at higher temps.
Great video! From my experience, the increase in strength with temperature keeps on going well beyond 65c, up to the point of heatcreep.
Great point! I hope to get even higher at some point with another setup and test out the limits.
@@CNCKitchen Danke Stefan. Freue mich drauf :)
Well, I'm sold. I was looking for a printer to replace my Prusa XL and it was between this, a K1 Max, a Troodon and a Voron, but I've seen such high praise from you and others for the QIDI it seems like the best bang for the buck.
Excellent work. Really good presentation. You're just confirming what I'm thinking, but don't have possibility to test the last 2-3 years. PLA is a very useful material, but sometimes we just need something more, perhaps for car parts.
Stefan, great video and I was waiting for this since a looong time from you!
Now there is finally someone in the community who is addressing this issue.
It's like MirageC and the importance of drying your materials, which is a must in injection molding. Why not in FDM / FFF was really suspicious to me > materials are the same.
About your findings I can give you one hint: the Tg (glass transition temperature) playes a hughe role here.
My rule of thumb is to know the Tg of the material you want to process and use at least this temperature (sometimes +10°C, depending of the heat distribution in the chamber) as the chamber temperature. This is how you process polymeres right.
As an example and this is why Stratasys was going with a heated chamber: 1989 there was now material for the AM (FDM / FFF) technology, only injection molding grade material. So, to print real ABS you had to have a chamber with elevated temperatures to deal with the shrinkage.
Really interesting stuff if you think in the approach of physics and why it is not possible to print PEI (Ultem) on an open machine > Tg of around 217°C. The temperature difference is too high.
Keep on going and never stop producing great stuff!
Greetings Andreas
Hi Stefen (@CNCKitchen), what surface prep did you do for the PC blend, just glue stick or printed on the bare HF textured sheet?
Very interesting and informative video, thank you.
Very interesting. I'm interested in making strong technical parts so this was very good video for me. As a new person to 3d printing (just within the last year), I've learned allot lot from your channel. Thanks ,👍🤓
Another great video as always 👍
I'm also happy with my QidiTech X-Plus 3 printer. I did notice that the wire from the heating element lit up on the thermal cam at 11:08 , isn't that going to cause some issues?
Qidi makes some good printer glad to see a good and well thought out review. They we kind of in a rut for a while with the mk10 hot end but they really knocked it out with the x max3 Im just waiting on the early teething problems to be worked out which seems to be the case.
Hi Stefan, I´m the winner of the 2019 Solvay AM cup. I built a printer that has a 230° heated chamber, if you want i can print you some other high performance material samples that are printed in a high chamber temperature. For the competition we used PPSU
I recently got the acetyl/POM filament printing consistently in my bambu. It is probably the strongest material I have every used by a long shot, and I am more and more convinced that it is the next popular engineering 3d printing material. I could not break a 8cm z height 8mm diameter tube by hand while all the other ones broke easily (I train powerlifting). POM seems to have a perfect layer strength, reaching a true isotropic behavior, since the fracture plane is always 45 deg. However it does suffer from a whopping 120ppm thermal contraction, so the width of the part is limited to around 3cm for x1c @ 50c chamber temperature. If not for the warping, POM would actually be quite a pleasant material to print, with no stringing, sticking, oozing, good dimensional accuracy, and post processing machinability. I wish there would be more printers with actively heated chamber and possibly with higher temperature limit at around 100c.
I've been having extreme hard time printing this filament. It's very finicky. Like the difference in +/-5 degree can fail a print. U a boss for conquering this task!!
How do you get it to stick to the print bed?!
Hot POM breaks down to make formaldehyde so with that I didn’t put much work into making it work.
@@JeffDM That's why you should dry POM and it'l be OK
Health hazards aside; I think you’re not wrong about POM but your explanation can fit many materials that “unfortunately warp like a mofo”. 🤔
Thanks for the video.
I'd like to see a bit more on this topic - how much does a skirt on an open printer help? How does ASA differ from ABS? And what about impact strength?
Wonderful! This is the type of content I subsribed to your channel for! Practical stuff that is applicable to my projects. I'm watching to learn, not be entertained. I would guess the same goes for most subscribers to this channel.
I have my printer in a very small server cabinet and when I was experimenting with a heat gun to warm up the cabinet, I was having other issues due to my experimenting with .6mm nozzles. I thought the heat was making it worse, but now I know my instincts were correct. Thanks!
It's interesting that you were only able to get 65 C chamber temps with active heating. With a passively heated enclosure, that's typically pretty easily achievable. If you want to get above that, the "blanket mod" (i.e. put a blanket over your printer to keep in the heat) does wonders. Rather than active heating, I would prefer that manufacturers implement better insulation so that less energy is used during printing. Bed heaters put out PLENTY of heat to get a chamber up to ABS printing temps.
65c is an imposed limit, probably for liability reasons
+1 on blanket mod. Didn’t even realize that’s something that other people did until now lmao, though it seems pretty obvious in hindsight
@@horuswasright I think he meant that he wonders why it could not reach 65°C with passive heating. Not why it only reached 65°C with active heating and not more :D
Awesome! Have you done a video on fixing broken 3d parted parts. Is it best to use super glue or can you use a soldering iron to remelt and adhere the parts? Thank you
Thank you for your video and tests! I have recently begun designing and building a new basic 3d printer enclosure that will incorporate active heating as well just to more reliably print ABS and ASA materials to reduce warping from the bed on bigger parts. I only have a Sovol SV01 so nothing fancy but the design will relocate the main control board and PSU outside of the chamber area and I am hoping to be able to achieve and maintain around 80C.
Let's goooo. Notification gang is here.
🎉🎉🎉🎉
Just a headsup for Voron owners: You can get quite high on chamber temp using methods that, essentially, blow air at the bottom of the heated bed, causing it to run at a higher average power and thus put more heat into the chamber. I use a combination of the Nevermore V6 (activated carbon filter) and two "BedFans" (both mods can be found with a quick Google search) on my 350mm V2.4 and I have seen chamber temps as high as 72C after a good heat soak and a few prints. ABS prints like an absolute dream in this situation. I haven't done any "real" layer adhesion testing, but I know it's damn good, much better than without the filter/BedFans. Of course these mods can probably be done to any enclosed printer as long as the bed heater can manage the extra load. The biggest disadvantage is that it does take longer to heat than a true active chamber heater, and also the fans used will fail prematurely due to their close proximity to a 100C bed.
This was awesome. Could you apply your skills to print settings/ conditions for watertight PETG and/or ABS/ASA vessels? I am trying to make a product out of PETG that holds water, but I really want to avoid post-processing for water tightness.
I have a very modified Prusa mini (all plastic pieces had to be reprinted in PC to avoid deformation) working at 75°C since 2 years, I only print in ABS and the results are very good, it is good to see I am not the only one seeing this. PC can also be printed on this but warping is still a problem for big pieces .
Is abs about the same price as PLA? Im considering getting a QIDI and would like to use one filament type if possible to avoid recalibration issues
I own the X-Max 3 and I am happy about the heated chamber, because I can start immediately with printing ABS after heating up the bed, so I never got warping with the X-Max 3. With other printers without heated chamber I have to wait about 20-30 minutes until the chamber is heated up.
Nice crispy prints 🎉
I love the electrical tape analogy 😍
I'm very curious to see how the Bambu Lab X1E compare to this X-Max 3. I think the heated chamber is a plus for difficult to print materials. Thank you for the video.
Hey Stefan, have you considered nonplanar 3d printing to increase layer adhesion? It seems to me that you could increase the surface area of each layer by making them wavy, or a jagged saw tooth.
Question, i believe while you were printing you had the part cooling fan on, assuming that you were printing the same file for each test with just the enclosure and heater being different, wouldn't the fan be cooling down the print more when the ambient air temp is lower?
If thats the case, the increase in strength from having the chamber heater might be reproducible by just turning down/turning off the cooling while printing.
Good point. I had it on 10% all of the time and for all prints and of cause that increases cooling at lower temperatures. Might check that at some point.
I'd be interested to see how PETG benefits from this. I've been running into issues with it that I haven't had before, but the weather is getting colder, so the ambient temps in my basement are dropping. Going to be getting an enclosure for it, I'm sure that will help, but I'd be curious to know if active heating helps even more.
Thank you for this.
My pleasure!
Lol while recording this. Bambu labs team, "i sense a disturbance in the force" Quick launch the X1E with the heater chamber. We got some ones youtube video to make outdated before launch. LOL. great video! thanks I do lot of ASA and Polyhex (PC-Alloy) and PA-910 printing on my bambu x1c the PA is a fight but the ASA and polyhex are not to bad. now i know i need to save up for the X1E.
This might be too general a question but with ASA/ABS best practice being no part cooling at all, how do you handle bridges and overhangs? Is it ok to add a bit of fan, especially since the chamber is now being heated as well?
It is exactly what I wanted from Bambu labs. That's why I bought one.
hmm after seeing this im not shure anymore to get a X1 carbon or this printer i think the AMS is kinda need and highspeed is very handy so you dont need to wait for parts but heatet chamber seems to be VERY Good thing to have
great video - very interesting!
Just a thought, but wouldn't some kind of fdm nozzle + laser engraver head hybrid be possible? Like laser melting the previous layer a bit to improve layer bonding?
I wonder if there are any differences in how you cool the parts after taking them from a heated chamber? Is there any benefit in slowly ramping down the temperature in the chamber in comparison to taking them out and "shocking" them with "cold" ambient temperatures? What happens if you throw them in ice directly after printing?
I'd guess that cooling them down not too rapidly might make sure that internal stresses are as low as possible, but I think there isn't a big difference, when printing at 65°C. If you go all the way up to 100°C this might look different, though.
In extreme cases you can watch it warp and crack in real time if you cool it too fast. That is if you take it out hot off the "oven" and put it at room temperature. Not sure what happens if you throw it into a bucket of ice water though, but I'd imagine it only gets worse.
depends on thickness. while standard 2 wall parts doesnt suffer, thick 1cm wallers willl bow bend immideately. so when i do huge chinks i let them cool down in chamber for up to 4 hours to room temp, it release internal stress.
Interesting topic well presented.
Wow, this is great to see! Thanks for the tests!
The main reason I would get this printer would be the nozzle temperature than can exceed 300deg. I mean wow: 350 degrees is awesome, especially for a consumer printer and at this price point. Sure, the improved layer adhesion is nothing to sneeze at, of course.
I hope bambu cones up with something like this on their next printer. I’m still sticking with Bambu labs I guess mostly for the AMS. NOT because multi-color printing (I don’t really use that), but because of automatically detecting their filament and because I can have 4 spools in there at once, print something in pla now and then something else in petg, without having to change a spool
Now, of course saying that it also implies the active heated chamber. Because the whole point of a higher temp nozzle would be to print some fancier materials, which in turn need a higher and constant temperature throughout the printed object’s height
Wouldn’t two spools of different materials necessitate recalibrating between swapping to the new material?
I'd love to see test results for PP filaments with heated chamber printing, also I have a prusa MK4 with enclosure and I wonder how can I incorporate chamber heating
@CNCKitchen
I've been curious about the effect of multi-material printing on part strength. Many people with AMS/MMU systems like using incompatible materials (PLA with PETG and vice versa) or soluble materials for support interfaces. Since the AMS/MMU both use a single nozzle for these multiple materials, some amount of material contamination seems inevitable when the previous filament is purged. Does this reduce part strength on the layers where filament changes occur? During a filament change, the printer pauses for an extended period of time allowing the previous layer to cool more than would otherwise happen. Does this additional cooling also reduce layer adhesion and part strength?
Some specific test ideas:
a) control group: printed normally
b) filament change group: a filament change is made to an incompatible filament (and/or a soluble material) which is used to print another object (or which is just purged through the nozzle between layers, simulating both the material incompatibility and the delay during filament change and printing of support or support interface)
c) pause test: an artificial pause is inserted between layers to simulate the delay one would experience while swapping materials, printing another object, and swapping back
d) incompatible materials test: an incompatible (and/or soluble) material is purged through the nozzle between layers quickly enough that the additional time between layers is negligible and/or in an environment in which the part cooling between layers is not an issue (eg an enclosure/heated enclosure)
You could also go further: testing different purge volumes to see if there's a critical point that eliminates contamination issues, or seeing if there's a critical layer time at which part strength drops off massively, or seeing if there are material combinations (PLA as support for PETG vs PETG as support for PLA) that give better or worse performance relative to a single material print.
Here's a link to a discussion in Bambu forums discussing the issue along with some anecdotal evidence for potential causes:
forum.bambulab.com/t/major-interlayer-strength-differences-when-multi-material-printing/22661/3
I recently purchased a Neptune 4 Pro. It prints ABS great at 110 C bed temperature, 255 C first layer nozzle and 230 C nozzle for subsequent layers, and a clear 30 gallon trash bag draped over the printer as an improvised enclosure. The 110 C bed passively heats the trash bag chamber to 50 C. It's a trash solution that is very inexpensive and works very well on a fast Klipper based $289 3D printer.
I have this printer I I like it much. I get results just as good as my X1C. I do wish Bambu had made a larger format printer, but then I saw this. From what I see on the Facebook Group, QIDI's tech support is very good.
Can you do indepth on printing with asa/abs? I"m trying to print asa in the creality k1, preheat the chamber, glass bed... and every print is a warped nightmare.
The first printer I ever used was the Stratasys 1200SST and it would print the Stratasys ABS in a chamber that was heated to around 170C. Those parts came out super hot, but I still have some of them from about 20 years ago and I never saw any of them delaminate. I don’t know when we will see chamber temps that high on consumer level printers though. Edit - The chamber temp was 170F not 170C.
170°C chambers seems unlikely that we will see in hobby printers. Also how did you avoid heat creep? From what I've heard. Note heard, not experienced, you start getting heat creep in ABS if you go much above 90°C chamber temp. Now if that 170° was Fahrenheit it would translate as 76°C, almost 77 degrees, close to the 80 degrees some people have been talking about as the "perfect" temperature for ABS.
Some claim that for ABS a chamber temperature somewhere around 80 to 90 degrees makes the layer adhesion good enough it doesn't matter the direction you test the strength. Layer direction or at a right angle, the strength is the same.
Again this is something others claim, I'm just trying to make head or tails of this.
@@blahorgaslisk7763 Ahh, you are correct I was thinking C but that was the Fahrenheit number. It was a LONG time ago for sure. I still have that machine, although it isn’t functional any longer. But I checked and the chamber temperature on it was 170F not C (so it was running around 75C). That is probably doable for consumer level. The nozzle would print around 300C. Their “ABS” was a special blend of ABS also, I remember them saying that it was not pure ABS.
@@blahorgaslisk7763the key is to separate the printing chamber from the rest of your components and space. One example would be the use of bellows: only the nozzle sticks into the "hot chamber", while the mechanics and cold end are much colder. You don't run into heat creep problems, plus you can heat the chamber far beyond the limit of normal EPDM belts, which is at 120° long-term, 135° short term
can you test if you would get better results with IR lamps as heating elements, for that direct heating effect?
Would you consider a bake off between 3DXTech Ez PCCF and Prusa PCCF, and include a test for heat creep of the printed parts (not nozzle heat creep)? Several folks on Discord are complaining about heat creep on Voron parts printed in Prusa's PCCF in warmer chambers (but still below 100C).
I would love to see more printers with an actively heated chamber. It obviously depends on the user but I have this printer and primarily print large functional abs or polycarbonate parts and it is wonderful for that.
Temperature controller costs like 5-10 bucks. 100Wt filament lightbulb or two and you have active heating. Add big cardboard box and you are golden)) I've made active heating for sla printer (to keep it at 30C for best quality), as a heating element used electrical floor heating film and a box printer shipped in. works like a champ, but this film self regulates at max 50C so for ABS would be nit enough
I love your videos, they are entertaining and to the point.
One request regarding sound. I assume you are slightly processing the sound of the videos afterwards. Could you turn the frequencies of sharp "s" sounds down a little please? As a headphone user they are biting into my ears a little and I really want to hear what you are saying :)
How did you re-route the heater’s power cable so it’s not directly in front of the heater?
Love love love this idea! Please compare it to the x1c. I'm in the market for a new printer.
In my personal experience, ABS layer adhesion is mostly affected by the nozzle temp, although going above 75° chamber also helps. I personally never print ABS or ASA below 70°, as thats the lowest that I consider reasonable, and up to 85° if I need strength.
PC blends and PC/ABS also become super easy above 75°, while "real" PC loves temps above 90°. If you build your printer accordingly, printing complex parts out of PC isn't all that hard.
Fwiw, PC printed at high (ambient) temps while being perfectly dry gets you as close to isotropy as FDM can realistically manage
I print real polycarbonate at 100 to 125 chamber temp, and it behaves pretty much like PETG. It's crazy how well it prints.
HF1110 by Sabic is tough stuff at them temps SSYS uses 110 and some use 130C so ya your right on here! Cheers @@VerbalGraphiti
@@VerbalGraphitihow do you get such a high chamber temperature? This QIDI only goes to 65
I've been wondering since seeing this vid. Would printing a transparant plastic with the activly heated chamber, allow a better fusing of the layers, and thus a more clear 3d printed object???
I’ve been using heated chambers for some time now, one thing you may have missed is, with a high chamber temp, you can use part cooling on ABS, ASA, PC and Nylons without compromising layer adhesion or suffer any warping.
Good point. I used 10% cooling in my tests to get more details on the prints!
Our Stratasys printer (at work) from 2006 heat up the chamber to 75-80°C with ABS430, and the Stratasys F370 depending on the print heats it up to 80 or 90°C with ASA. The prints at home with a regular printer are definitely weaker, much much more. Never thought that might have to do with the heated chamber though.
Great topic. And what happens if we could print inside a pressurized chamber ? The higher ambient pressure could increase the density ? And therefore the material resistance ? Just thinking here.
What is the cross sectional difference between your xy part and dog bone shaped part? The xy seems to have a larger cross section which would show a stronger force required to yield than the dog bone.
Fun fact with the Xmax3: If you put a towel over the top to keep the bed heat contained inside the unit it will stay about 52c or 125f while printing ABS. That is without using the chamber heater at all!
Neat, been looking for a core xy step up from my trusty ender3, but I don't really trust bamboo...
This mans studio has everything, including the kitchen sink!
I wish Prusa would do this same thing, I need a controllable heated chamber for the printing that I do.
So can I add external thermostatic device to my standard 3d printer chamber?
Is there an after market / active heater for X1C to install?
Interesting ! As always.
Ever so often nice video, I love your content and your German accent, keep on und schöne Grüße vom Niederrhein 😊😊
As someone else mentioned the Stratsys patent, it also indicated that the motors/electronics are kept outside of the heated area. It's easy to hate on Stratsys, but I think we should probably dig more into their patents (ignoring the abuse of them, that's the point of patents... exclusive usage of something for a period of time before it becomes public domain) and maybe go "wait... don't _just_ heat the chamber, more motors and electronics outside of it too". They probably have something on how to bring a print down to room temp (which was another comment) and some number of other topics that could be interesting for better prints. I'm just guessing... I only know the "put electronics and motors outside of heated chamber" thing, not if they have something on cooling or part strength.
Ich hatte vor Jahren an der Uni mal Zugriff auf einen professionellen FDM Drucker, die haben fast ausschließlich ABS verdruckt und hatten dafür die Bauraumheizung auf 90°C gestellt, alles vom Hersteller des Druckers als Profil hinterlegt. Schön zu sehen, das die Patente endlich ausgelaufen sind und wir in den Genuß besserer Möglichkeiten kommen. Schade das Bambu Lab mit dem X1E aktuell den Vogel abgeschossen hat.
Das X1E fügt einige Funktionen hinzu, die das Max3 bereits hat, ist aber so teuer, dass ich es nicht als Konkurrenten für das Max3 sehe. Das X1E ist eher auf Unternehmen ausgerichtet, während das Max3 aufgrund seines Preises eher für Verbraucher geeignet ist.