WoL: "Oh boy, here I go directly causing another world civil war!" The Grand Company the WoL is currently tied to: *Trying to not notice the ambient music turned to combat.*
Still think the other New World guy who wants the throne just wants to become a conquering empire. Not to go after Garlemald specifically. That said I agree Garlemald is in a bad position and could face more trouble. I just don't think they will. I think the writers want to cut ties with all old plots/settings/etc. They have NUKED every mystery they could during Endwalker. EDIT: Also I would love to see the tropical armies of the southern portion of the new world invade garlemald. Go ahead. Invade Russia in winter.
Agreed. The older plotlines will still be around in the firm of lasting consequences Garlemald made themselves a massive target, and all that bad blood isn't going to go away overnight just because the final days hit them harder than anyone else We will have to deal with those consequences going forward, Yeah, going forward, it's a new era
I think that’s what it is. The potential ruler could just see Garlemald as a weak target. Let’s not forget that they have access to a lot of ceruleam which could also be their true target. Even if he did, would Garlemalds neighbours really be all that happy? Even if they hate Garlemald, they could just be letting another set of potential invaders right in.
It makes sense. Not everyone in Tural is aware of just how bad are things in Garlemald, but they do know how strong they were at one point, so if you wipe out the Garlemald survivors, you can go back to Turel and brag how you singlehandedly wiped out the biggest threat in the other side of the world
Tural also has many different climates, so it’s not like they’d be unprepared for the concept of winter. If anything the bigger problem is they probably know how to exploit cerulem and strip mining Garlemand for it might be their real goal as they aren’t allowed to do so in their own lands. The blu quests where that Sharlyan scholar tried to exploit their people might even be what tipped the scales towards conquest against outside nations while giving them ideas.
I have seen a lot of people talking about "the guy who wants to invade Garlemald" and that's not the impression that I got at all. He intends to invade the western continents now that Garlemald is out of the way. It wouldn't even make sense, they have nothing to conquer.
I feel like Square Enix put too much effort into little mutant moon rabbits when they had the golden opportunity to really expand on a people who have been the primary antagonists across three expansions. As somebody that has been playing D&D and world building for twenty+ years, that was one hell of a missed opportunity. I digress. If we can restore the Doman Enclave, we can restore Garlemald. Also, I feel that Thavnairian or Garlean housing would be infinitely better than Sharlayan housing.
Typically people elaborate when they make such a claim, and my comment was an opinion which by definition cannot be wrong. So I think what you were trying ito say is, we have a difference of opnion.@@fredy2041
You do not even know what my point is beyond my opinion of it being a wasted opportunity to expand on a culture in the game. Additionally, you've not made any point. Instead, you've said an opinion is wrong which is an impossibility by defintion, and assumed that I did not like the expansion basesd off...what? Seriously, I don't have time for this and you have better things you could be doing besides baselessly trolling an opinion that is not yours. So would you kindly just drop this? The last question was actually rhetorical, and was me trying to be polite instead of saying "I don't argue with WoW players."@@fredy2041
What I took from Wuk's line about the warmonger was that - he didnt want to invade Garlemald specifically; rather their demise was seen as Eorzea / Othard losing one of the most powerful and advanced military forces outside of the New World. Garlemald was a deterrent and forced Turyal to focus on protecting the homeland. Part of the British Empire's success was that it incorporated all aspects of its territory uniqueness into its forces... Garlemald did much the same based off of what we see of the various legions. Besides.... to get Islabard you've got to march through Eorzea first....Warmonger is probably planning on attacking / conquering there first.
That's also how I understood it. With Garlemald gone they were free to expand their empire. After all, you can't even reach Garlemald without going through Eorzea. I need to rewatch that scene to see if I'm misunderstanding.
@@MissKashiraThis was my same understanding and I commented as much on Synoptics last video on this subject. I'd say Garlemalds biggest threat is their previous neighboring provinces wanting revenge, but likewise their inhospitable terrain would serve as a powerful deterrent.. At least until their summer comes around..
While I agree with you about what Wuk Lamat said, I don't think you have to march through Eorzea to get to Garlemald. If Turali invaders _did_ want to go directly to Garlemald/Ilsabard, they could simply go around Aldernard to the north, through the Northern Empty.
@@DarthSanguine It wasn't cause I thought they were landlocked. It's because I thought it was a difficult trip which is why not many of them are here and not many of us are there. If they can hold enough food and water in their ships to move their entire army around Eorzea, it feels like they should be popping by every weekend.
All I have to say is this: If Mobile Suit Gundam has taught us anything is that War of any kind and what goes on behind the scenes is just a big game of chess. Yes Garlemald has blood on its hands (an Ocean's worth of you will) and even in times of peace NO one is going to just "forgive and forget" just like that! My Grandfather who served both World Wars said this to me when I started middle school "If there was one thing I was ever sure of as a soldier is that there could be hundreds of innocent people and your superiors, leaders, and government would not care. You just follow your orders do as you're told and shut up! Makes me wonder what the real requirements of a purple heart is" to this day those words haunt me so even with that if this Warmonger in DawnTrial does invade let's just say he'll find a LOT of allies.
Honestly, this is something I'm seeing people forget a lot and I appreciate you bringing it up. Garlemald's current plight is - in a way - their own doing. This isn't a thing that happened a few hundred years ago and there's an ancestral grudge going on like how most of the people Nidhogg caused suffering for had nothing to do with the betrayal of Ratatoskr. Many of the people of Orthard, Bozja, Ala Mhigo, hell even the rest of Eorzea, that you interact with watched Garlemald send their friends, family, lovers, even their children off to war - shipping them to whatever warzone to _die_ because Garlemald saw then as "lesser savages". Sure, Garlemald _internally_ has improved but their foreign relations are still in the gutter and it's going to take more than a rousing speech from Alphinaud to change that. The Doman father who watched his daughter be taken from their home and sent off to Bozja never to return isn't going to go "oh that's okay then, they were being mislead!" it's going to be "cool, should've sorted that problem out _before_ they sent my daughter to die." Good intentions and a new leaf doesn't bring their loved ones back from the grave, and I would be surprised and honestly kinda disappointed if Dawntrail just makes everyone forgive Garlemald at the drop of a hat (or has some forgive them, then present those who don't as "wrong" or "evil" in some way because that's honestly a super childish way to look at such a situation.)
I suspect it is more likely that it won't be brought up as Tural has almost nothing to do with Garlemald and most of the general expansion will likely be focused on the events taking place in Tural and probably little to do with anything going on the three continent outside of some comments from the twins. They probably won't make people just forgive Garlemald but they probably won't spend too much time bring it up either.. I wouldn't expect much from Base Story Dawntrail in that regard.
I absolutely agree. All of Garlemald's problems were seemingly solved, but only on the shallowest level. Sure, the Twins might have overly optimistic charisma on their side, but realistically that's not gonna do much for peaceful relations in the long term, and Endwalker's MSQ missed a BIG opportunity by not exploring this further. The world doesn't just revolve around the WoL and the Scions, and I feel like a lot of the fandom (and the Endwalker writers) tends to forget this. The average citizen probably isn't aware of the existence of Ascians, and probably won't take kindly to suddenly treating them like they did nothing wrong even if their nation actually was being maniuplated. This is why Heavensward was so good: it actually took the time to explore the consequences of toppling a 1000-year regime. The citizens of Ishgard were only taking the WoL and Aymeric's word on everything that happened; they had no way of knowing that Thordan was actually a primal hell-bent on tempering all humanity, so of course a lot of people would think it was simply a power grab. Not to mention they explored issues from the other side too, mentioning how innocent priests were victims of misplaced anger. I'm hoping now that we have a new lead writer for Dawntrail they'll eventually go back and explore this more, because I seriously think Endwalker was robbed.
@@truesoprano2152 Honestly Heavensward handled this sort of brilliant prior to the Thordan fight as well. You KNOW Thordan is a prick but can't do anything about it because of the ramifications "The Warrior of Light, recently accused of regicide, _just committed regicide"_ would bring. Similar to the post-Stormblood MSQ (Before the buildup to Shadowbringers), you KNOW Asahi is an evil twat but can't do anything about it because "the Warrior of Light kills Garlean diplomat" would look HORRIBLE and just facilitate more war. It's the difference between "main character of the plot" and "main character of the world" which I felt Endwalker as you said, kind of forgot. If what I've heard about Dawntrail is true I'm really looking forward to it, not the most stoked about Solution 9 but I'm willing to wait and see how they handle that.
@@truesoprano2152 Endwalker suffered from Stormblood's issue of trying to balance multiple storylines (Garlemald, the Ancients, and the plantets in the rest of the universe), and that came about because they decided to scrap the Garlemald-focused expansion and just give us everything all at once.
y'know what one mystery is currently unsolved.? Travanchet. implied to be an agent working for Ascians, or maybe an Ascian himself. Last I know, is that he was kindof responsible for Alexander. There's also whatever Halmarut, and Pashtarot are doing., as we kinda know Altima and Deudalaphon are, for the moment, out of the picture. (Thanks to Gaius), but who knows what would happen if they did return.
TBH, my headcannon was he was simply being a skinpuppet for an Ascian. Which one is of course unclear. Personal headcannon is 1.0 Lahabraea or Elidabis but that's just me.
I feel like we're gonna meet at least one unemployed Ascian in DT's newest NR or probably just stumble upon the civilization they created since Solution 9 looks suspicious. Either Altima, Deudalaphon, etc, I can't wait to see the story.
60-70 years of horrific treatment of other nations would take around 2-3 times as long to heal in an ideal scenario, and that's a pretty generous lowball even when you don't factor in the more long-lived races like viera or elezen
There are realistic ways the process could be sped up, but yeah, Garlemald is going to be hated by most of the world for a few more expansions at least.
Let's be honest, just on the top of my head, Garlemald to the layman, as an organized society under the Empire: - Committed massive expansionist wars, only properly stymied and reversed when the Alliance went on the offensive in 2.0 and again in 4.0 - Allowed for extremely harsh reagents in various Garlean enclaves, who often treated people with extreme cruelty in their own seats of power and glory (ohai Yosetsu didn't see you there.) - Was more than complacent with extremely dubious experimental sciences, often with major death tolls of failed subjects involved that included Garleans themselves (Resonance, Meteor, the Weapons, Black Rose, we could go on.) - Their regencies if anything made situations worse. As pointed out several times, no matter how hard Garlemald cracked down on the empire, primals never ceased to be an issue, and more were usually summoned regardless. Stormblood kinda dropped the ball on that past Shinryu itself, but it's a constant threat of discussion whenever the Scions are on the travel. - STAGED THE 7TH UMBRAL ERA. This really cannot be overstated on their crime list, and despite how understated Nael can be in modern FF14, her actions ushered in a new and unstable generation, one plagued with all sorts of horrible and unknown reactions, such as Ishguard's endless winter. - Finally, and one that became more and more important to the laymen, the cavorting and harboring of Ascians, especially the Unsundered ringleaders. Even if we don't count the untold billions slaughtered on the seven shards sacrificed to the Source, or the crimes committed against the 1st and 13th, but strictly the machinations and manipulations that became more and more widespread as the Eorzian Alliance waxed stronger more than showed such a threat these beings were, and the Garleans willing to work with them at the highest levels would draw any layman ire.
Not to mention, many, many of 2.0's FATES, which are supposed to be in-lore these smaller, but still prominate attacks and disruptions on Eorzea's ecosystem and civilian population, was a direct result from Bahamut's summoning. Not to mention the country itself was permanently transformed and disfigured due to his explosive and devastating release. The 7th Umbral Calamity cannot be understated here.
@@kiearawagner7901 FATES, a handful of dungeons, AND beast tribe strongholds like the Sapta Spawning Grounds all stem from the 7th Calamity especially, either from the pullback from locations the city-states did or direct intervention of the corruptive aether. It's also the main reason the quartet of Castrums even got onto Alliance soil to start with, if I recall correctly. @julianhcastro I would hope if the Garlean storyline is picked up again, that at least Alphanaud would be well aware of this, as he was always the more geopolitical focused of the Wonder Twins, but them and their damn optimism has been hit in the face before like the Crystal Braves. We'll have to see.
@@gratuitouslurking8610 Indeed. So, I hope the game doesn't try to pull something like "you see, the Garleans weren't actually THAT BAD, they just had corrupt leaders like Emet-Selch..." I'm sorry, but ultimently, the Garleans still went with 60-70 years of conquest and genocide. It wasn't Emet-Selch telling the Garleans in Ala Mhigo to stand back and allow Fordoloa's father to be stoned to death by their own kin, and it wasn't Emet-Selch controlling the general hatred of Garleans to the outside world, he simply planted the seeds. I'm not saying I want to see them destroyed, because, quite honestly, I feel at this point they are at the lowest and striking now would be like kicking a body, plus the Garlamald of Hate is no more, so something new and positive can rise in its place instead. But I feel the developers shouldn't lampshade the fact that for nearly a century this country aimed to dominate the world and her people.
They paint them as victims of circumstances but forchenault rips that notion in half in the final role quest. Given the choice my Wol WOULD not of helped
You're not entirely wrong. It's the difference between idealistic teenagers and their father who's seen the best and worst of entire civilizations. haha
Unfortunately for Garlemald, Emet Selch can't be used as an excuse politically, because the Ascians and their ultimate goal are not really public knowledge at all. Moreover, the manipulation by Ascians just... can't be anywhere near enough to absolve the Garleans wrongdoing. I certainly expect them to not drop this issue.
I think the point was that the Ilsabard Contingent was formed because it was the right thing to do, regardless of how the people in it felt, and that doing the right thing means setting aside prejudice and vengeance.
Thanks a TON for the upload! It pretty much reflected all of my feelings on the matter. Yes, it would be naive in the extreme to think that Garlemald's woes are over. Especially when the former provinces would likely hold a great deal of animosity towards them.
If WWII taught me anything, "just following orders" isn't an excuse for ignoring morality and empathy and often times during trials was that used to jail some soldiers as admittance of knowing wrong was done by putting a job over human decency.
TO BE HONEST, despite all of that, I still think delivering the coup de grace to Garlemald is still hard. Even with the 1/4th chance that this royal candidate is from the northern side of Tural, therefore making them used to the cold, It will still be hard to get to Garlemald. Geographically, Garlemald's a fuckin fortress. Mountains, extreme blizzards, and scarce resources to forage, harsh terrain bent on making logistics hell. To get to the country proper, the Turali army would most likely go through the northernmost sea, land near the volcanic regions where the Hellsguard originate from, and the native Hellsguard certainly won't allow someone to dock in their beaches willy nilly without some resistance or diplomacy. EVEN THEN, they would still go through Dravania (which the dragons won't definitely like seeing an army going through their lands) and possibly Ala Mhigo (which is definitely not their climate). Or to the south, which would be a logistical nightmare, since they would have to sail from Northern Tural, down the Indigo Deep, Rhotano Sea, Sea of Ash, and into the Sea of Jade (which is Hannish territory and Radz-at-Han are Garlean allies). Same goes if they were to go around the world to go through the Blindfrost sea towards northwest Othard (again, a swamp/bog which is not their climate or terrain.), AND WILL ALSO GO THROUGH Doma, The Burn, and the fallen capital of Bozja as well (which is rendered unhospitable because of the Meteor Project). So I still think they are somewhat safe from invasion. But I still think they are still not out of the deep in other ways.
There’s also the fact that their military isn’t *quite* wiped out. There’s a bunch of berserk warmachina wandering around, and also likely Telophoroi remnants and terminus beasts that nobody has dealt with yet.
Why would they have to be from the north? The far south (which is still covered in fog) could be the cold part of Tural as well, especially since most of Xak Tural seems to be desert. Also, why the hell would the Turali army have to invade Eorzea or Othard first? Ilsabard has its OWN coastline, which is perfectly accessible to an invading armada.
I think its more likely that the New World Prince wants to conquer Garlemald for its resources. Sweet sweet oil, I mean Ceruleum. Blue gold. The guy wants to make tuliyollal the America of Ethirys. Might use bringing down the evil Garleans as a good excuse for it though. I would not be surprised if there is also a plot point where he is involved in pushing the Whalaqee out of their nice ceruleum spot too.
The major bone of contention, in my estimation, is going to be Locus Amoenus, a.k.a. Corvos. I can see Garlemald freely returning sovereignty to every other nation they conquered, *except* Corvos. The Garlean cultural memory of having been forcibly driven out of Locus Amoenus runs deep, deep enough that 800 years after being displaced, Emet-Selch was able to use that cultural grudge as onus to launch the first wave of invasions, culminating with the reclaiming of Corvos; their Home Beyond the Horizon, as the patriotic song calls it. It was that war that created the idea behind the red link in their banner; the sacrifices made to take back the land stolen from them by the people who became the Corvosi. And I don't fully agree with Forchenault's opinion at the end of the Role Quests. Just because the region was owned by difference nations and societies before the Gougans settled there, this does not mean they do not still have a claim. There is a difference between land changing hands due to the collapse of one nation freeing it up, and being forcibly displaced from it. Further, they were displaced after "centuries" of prolonged war; they fought tooth and nail to keep it in a war of attrition that they eventually couldn't sustain. Their clockwork was not enough to level the playing field with the magic they were up against. The cultural memory of that is defining for the people of Garlemald. That lessons of that war, their displacement, and the harassment they faced on the long migration north into the frozen wastes, are now as deeply rooted in Garlean culture as the Elementals are to Gridania. The suggestion that they relinquish the one stretch of land that they have a true historical claim to would be resisted with passion by every Garlean, and forcing them to relinquish it at the diplomatic table would be seen as an affront and an exploitation of their weak position, rather than a rational concession. Any Garlean would see a repeat of history in such an action: the magic-wielding nations of the world once again singling out and dictating the fate of the magicless Garleans. It would nurture a spark of resentment that would only perpetuate, not resolve, the Garlean distrust of magic and magic users.
I think a lot of what Garlemald faces could also be faced by the beast tribes. I do hope that many of those in the city states would see the similarities between the suffering caused by both sides in the fights with the beast tribes. There is also the question about what happens to those who threw their lot in with the Empire during and after it’s invasions. Maybe this could all be a plot for a future expansion.
100% agree, and I'll be surprised and disappointed if this exact notion is never addressed. I've seen some folks say that it won't be because it's considered part of the "old story" aka all the Ascians and Calamities and Zodiark and such... but it feels like such a sore thumb in world events compared to the rest that it'd be weird not to address it.
Depends how much focus the past places we been will play into things going forward. As far as Base MSQ Dawntrail I would expect very little on that front as it I suspect we will not be venturing too far from Tural itself unless something bizarre happens. Because Garlemald did not successfully claim Eorzea, it never moved any further west so Tural knowledge of Garlemald is likely just general rumors and traveler word of mouth.
It would be strange if it was just forgotten about considering the entire reason the twins travel with us is to continue helping Garlemald.. That will inevitably lead to the expected conflicts.
Even in the miraculous event that a majority of the world realized that Emet Selch is to blame for basically everything, that wont discount their involvement in the atrocities, while not Christian, I think the quote from Kingdom of Heaven applies here "When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice." In this case God, being every nation.
I think that not everyone from that majority which refused to join the contingent has to hate Garleans. We can safely assume that there’s quite a sizeable group of people who are just somewhat neutral. Something like : “I don’t want all Garleans to die and garlemald be razed to the ground, but I’m also not going to go as far as to risk my own life and safety to help them”
For everything they had done, no one could be completely neutral to Garlemald. Everyone was affected by the Seventh Umbral Calamity on varying degrees.
This comment is sadly indictive of real life's people's disconnection with the scale of suffering that is involved with oppression, colonization, and genocide. Y'all are gonna "both sides bad I'm an enlighted centrist" your way into facisim. Litteraly what happened in Nazi Germany.
That's the thing, though. If the roles were reversed and it was **Eorzea** limping along in a state of near-anarchy after a total societal collapse, Emperor Varis would absolutely pounce. That fact hangs over the heads of a lot of people, and they're not expecting a total democratization of Garlemald so much as they're waiting to see who the next genocidal tyrant will be to take the throne. In the minds of the survivors of Garlemald's invasions, it's little better than a douche-versus-turd sandwich argument, Scions and Primals and Ascians be damned.
Honestly I'm more surprised there isn't even the slightest bit of resentment towards the Warrior of Light and Scions "for turning the other cheek." Sure we saved all of existence but this kind of deep seated hurt isn't completely rational.
I get the feeling we're going back to Garlemald in a far-flung expansion. Some day we'll look at it from the frozen wastes and the backdrop will have visually changed. Presumably the ruins we can walk through will be treated as a monument or rogue machine-infested or something and left alone, because I can't see how enough changes could be made for a sufficiently progressed player while still being able to interact with the same map as players halfway through EW
While I generally agree with many of the comments here about it being more about Garlemald no longer being a threat at all, I do think this video still raises a valid point. It's something that at least a couple of the role quests in EndWalker made a pretty heavy point of prioritizing. There are a lot of people who wouldn't shed a tear if Garlemald was invaded
I still think this is about more than honor or heroism. I think Ceruleum is more important than we currently realize, and the Dawntrail map pictures show that there is something of a gold rush with Ceruleum happening in the new world.
In a real world case study. Garlean Aggression could be equated to the actions of a mix of WW 1 & WW 2 Germany with a large sprinkling of the Soviet Union. The collapse of Kaiser Germany, Nazi Germany, and the Fall of the Soviet empire (as it really was an Empire) look a whole lot like what Garlean is facing. For Kaisers Germany, Europe continued hating Germany and Germans until the end of the second world war. But after the second war, with the Reconstruction paid for by the USA Germans we very quickly forgiven in less than 10 years. But this was because of Soviet Aggression and the start of the Cold War. It did help that Europe had basically divided Germany into regions which were occupied until reconstruction was over. This occupation didn't really end until the fall of the Soviet Union. For the Soviets, well we are seeing that the imperialistic desire never left. So odds are we will see another global war. For Garlean if Square follows real world history, than Sharlyan is the USA doing the Reconstruction and everyone has a small occupying force under guise of Aid. So all we need now is an external existential threat to unify everyone while Garlean recovers and becomes everyone ally.
Lets not forget that by taking over garlemald you gain access to abundent sources of Ceruleum and other natural resources, all of which can massively enrich any nation that holds it. And on top of that, by conquering garlemald you would have access to garlean technology, even tho it is in ruins even small advancements in a country's technological advancement can have massive multipliers in a countriy's, infulence and power. There are so many factors as to why someone would want to invade garlemald: politcal, economical, and strategic.
The other issue I never found talked about is that since there are Garleans who did fight agaisnt the Empire like Cid there will always be someone to point to that following the will of the ascians was a choice, if Cid can leave you can to. Without Zenos and other heads of state for the war to blame it means the buck is passed down to the people themsevels. Someone has to hang and someone needs to pay. The resources that given to save the ashes of the Empire could be spend on reconstruction of the mess they made, no one will trust a goverment of there choosing either. They were all happy enough to put shock collars on the twins and using as bargning chips to the very end, It took the end of all things to make some of them surrender and wake up not the kind of people you want to have licking there wounds without some contorl over them.
I hope during a break in the 7.0 - 8.0 MSQ we help Garlemald rebuild! They are a great people that were played by their own government for far too long! Garlemald won't survive if they actually get attacked so soon after the fall of their government & the Final Days! I'd love to see them startup Magitech again & to start shipping it to other parts of the world!
I'm curious about former provinces that we don't know much about, such as Landis and Corvos (not counting Nhalmasque since they were conquered so long ago). Would they remain part of Garlemald proper or seek to break away and/or engage in conflict? Corvos seems likely given history, but Landis willingly bent the knee at least in some capacity. Plus as far as we know, they're majority hyur, so kinda more similar to the pure Garleans. Suffice to say, there is plenty of room for us to see what becomes of a post-empire Ilsabard.
I hadn't thought about this, but it makes a lotta sense. I don't think any nations we've been to would invade. They're all either led by people sympathetic to the cause, or in their own state of rebuilding. But as for nations we haven't been to, Corvos, potentially? I don't remember hearing about that place being wrecked so they could be in a position to do something. I think it might be more likely, though, for a band of disaffected individuals from around the 3 great continents to form their own mercenary army in order to seek revenge. If there _were_ to be a, let's call it, a Garlean Southern Front of sorts, it might e interesting to potentially have to fight seriously against characters we've previously allied with. I don't think Turali invaders would go specifically for Garlemald. Perhaps a leader of a small warband might as a way to prove themselves. But if a conqueror were to take the throne, I believe he'd want to conquer the entirety of the 3 great continents. I don't think he'd be worried about looking like a hero.
If they do anything like a Garlean Southern Front, I really hope they give us the choice of which faction to ally, because I totally wouldn't want to fight any other nations over Garlemald.
There is so much potential to go into the geo-political implications of post-EW Garlemald that I hope they would touch on if not in the main Dawntrail MSQ, post-Dawntrail. I get flashbacks to history lessons on post-WWII Germany from the few scenes we get in the recent patches. In the process of formerly subjugated nations regaining old lands, I can see them wanting to tear chunks out of Garlemald, carve up what's left like a pie, or even wipe it off the map. Right now with Garlemald's future as a big question mark, I can imagine it becoming like the other free city states, but even so the process is probably going to be messy and complicated even in real life. So much needs to be changed and rebuilt.
I doubt this ambitious brother has much fear of the Eorzean Alliance. Erenville's words in the MSQ mention the collapse of Garlemald specifically. I would think that having a very organized, powerful, and expansion minded threat in the middle and east of the lands you might want to conquer for yourself is quite a deterrent. But now the brother "sees weakness to exploit, and would lead our armies across the seas on a campaign of conquest." Coming from the west such an army would possibly have to march over Eorzea on their way. But the real goal may still wait in Garlemald. In the wild west area of Dawntrail there are oil derricks and pipelines that seem to be venting cereleum gas. If it proves to be a province of Tural, they're probably not digging it up for something to do. They understand its value as a fuel. Now that it is known that Garlemald's military is shattered and what few in tact legions that might remain in the world are far from the homeland and occupied with their own survival, why not swoop in and seize those tremendous reserves to bolster his own rule?
I have this dream scene - seeing Alphinaud, sitting in Garlean embassy as an ambassador, trying to hold World Council (a Crystal Council? xd) and after all job done, playing "Beyond the Horizon" from the radio, while camera going far away from him. Just getting shivers thinking about it :D
I think its less about "Destroy Garlemald, they are terrible!" and more "Hey look, an easy first target." Did Garlemald even attack the new world? Are there any records of them going after them? As far as I know, the new world has be been at peace for a good bit, so I doubt it. With that in mind, I don't think it would be a campaign of revenge. I think it's more likely they see Garlemald as an easy first target, a stepping stone. And once they take out whats left of Garlemald, they could almost CERTAINLY turn their eyes towards their next target, that being the rest of Eorzea and the world at large. Garlemald is certainly in danger, make no mistake but its less about "saving Garlemald" for me and more about "Stopping the next Empire from starting." We don't need another blood thirsty world leader out there.
I have a feeling whatever we end up doing in Tural, it's not going to effect Garlamald directly. Think it's more likely that the provinces still within Ilsibard proper will be the biggest problem. Corvos is mentioned a few times in the MSQ as well as some side content. I would be surprised if they didn't think to strike at a vulnerable Garlamald, if not during 7.X perhaps during 8.X story.
Could be an interesting story for post DT or 8.0. With the scions absence there's no mediator for Garlemald diplomats to even have a chance at the table. Maybe devolving the peace between the alliances, with some in support and some opting for Garlemald to just fade out
One has to wonder if a conquest of Garlemald would actually stop at Garlemald. A lot of people would definitely cheer for the destruction of Garlemald, but all of them are extremely shortsighted. There is a massive power vacuum, now, and one should be suspicious of attempts to fill it
Exactly. Also, to conquer Garlemald itself would already put the surrounding nations in jeopardy. The climate around Garlemald being inhospitable as it is, any would-be-conqueror would strategically have to create a base of operations to maintain their troops and gather supplies. The weakened nations around would be too easy of a solution to ignore.
I think it is an exaggeration to say that everyone would cheer. If Garlemald got invaded. For you see the world has already been told that Garlemald had been defeated by the warrior of light and the Sions. I think it is much more likely that if Tural invaded that most would fear it a repeat of the Garlian invasion and that they would be next.
This was also on my mind, I'm curious to see how the writers handle this story beat of how the former provinces and Eorzea handle dealing with the survivors of Garlemald. I'd personally like the WoL to explicitly just be an observer--maybe bring a mcguffin here or there, but the nations and Garlemald don't make amends because we say so, only that we're there to keep things from getting ugly.
I think this will be an huge sub plot for the next two expansions. I don’t think we will see the culmination of it until the next expansion we don’t even know how everyone is recovering Galemald yet, we will see what happens but I really feel like this is a blossoming plot line.
An excellent analysis. Don’t overlook that the people writing the story are Japanese, and thus understand the dynamics very well. I suspect that actual historical events are an invisible hand behind the writing.
While the forces Eorzea has in Garlemald is small I still feel like it will deter people from invading as to not provoke the ire of the Eorzean alliance as its probably the strongest military in that general area of the world. Personally I'm worried any sort of possible conflict will just be resolved in some sort of rebuilding Garlemald side activity where things just get talked out in a 5 minute cutscene lol.
I'll be really disappointed if this plot point is dropped or even glossed over, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I feel like we were robbed of a proper Garlemald story in Endwalker, and like you said, it was really only seen from the optimistic eyes of the Scions. Personally I'm not a fan of how Endwalker glossed over most of the political plotlines in favor of more high-stakes battles and anime-style tropes, and I'm hoping now that we're entering a new saga and have a new lead writer the story will be able to focus more on worldbuilding and politics, which is what made me fall in love with the game in the first place. I don't think any of this will be addressed in 7.0 since they're clearly gearing up to only focus on Tural, but hopefully in the post patches we'll come back to Garlemald, and perhaps it will even be a major focus in 8.0.
@@fredy2041 Garlemald was set up as a major villain ever since 1.0. Major sections of post-patches were dedicated to the ongoing conflict between the Alliance and Garlemald, only for the entire plot to be hastily resolved in one section of Endwalker. And a lot of it is done off-screen. Right before the Tower of Babil they mention how a lot of Garlean armies are suddenly falling, with very little mention of how or why. You could argue that it was just Garlemald collapsing under itself, but for a plot that's been present the entire game, it was incredibly unsatisfying to watch. It's obvious from a narrative standpoint that they just wanted to move on to the Final Days plot.
@@fredy2041 ...only I literally posted my reasoning as to why I didn't think Garlemald had a satisfying arc in Endwalker. You're just saying things in a condescending way without giving me an explanation why.
@@fredy2041 you still haven't posted any proof of your arguments, you're unironically doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing, and you keep calling me "kid" which reads as you trying to insult me. You're clearly just angry that someone doesn't like a thing that you like, and it's fine to have different opinions but don't get angry and try to point this on me. I'm not responding to you anymore, you clearly don't know how to have a discussion in an intelligent way.
It would take generations to forgive Garlemald. It's not impossible, but not immediate. The thought of another empire to deal with actually raised the stakes higher for DT than I thought it would. Should be interesting where it goes.
Kind of a hot take, but I grew very annoyed at Alphinaud and Alisaie's arc on Garlemald. They used to be my favorite characters, specially Alphinaud, but since the MSQ's "poor innocent Garleans" take they're the ones I'm the less excited about. Yes, they were manipulated, but they weren't innocent. Some actively dennied the empire's biggot mentality and tried to actively make changes, like Maxima, Lucia and Cid, and those have all my love. But even on their lowest, the remaining population would rather spit in the hands of those willing to help and call us monsters, while blissfully ignoring the horrors their beloved nation commited. I had no simpathy at all not even to the two girls that died trying to run away, and just thought them to be idiots. Edit to add: no, I wouldn't preffer Garlemald razed to the ground. The few survivors deserve a new start. BUT it doesn't mean they should be absolved from everything they did. They commited genocide and almost barelly extinguished civilization in it's totallity. Forgiveness should come with accountability.
Well said, they have a lot to answer for and trying to forgive them now before we even have a proper scope of the totality of their crimes seems a little messed up, We don't even know the full scope of their atrocities because Ilsabard is covered so completely.
Yeah. The moment they said that one of the people that are gunning for the throne, also have their sights on Garlemald. I knew this wasn’t going to go down well. If the WoL doesn’t head this off. Then this could wind up being a larger war than the one in Storm Blood. Eorzea and Garlemald are in peace talks right now. But the iron is still hot. So it can either fall apart, and we have a 3-way war. Or Garlemald and Eorzea join forces. And we have a war between super powers. Either way, it’s bad.
They definitely hint at some Garlemald involvement in Dawntrail, in that last Island Sanctuary quest - about 'coming to see their homeland in the summer.' It will be interesting to see what happens!!!
I’m genuinely mad that my notifs haven’t been going off for your channel. I thought you were just inactive and instead UA-cam just blows. On the plus side, I’ve got a lot of good vids to binge now 😂
I think it should also be pointed out that Garlemald is host all manner of continent conquering magitech that's fairly poorly defended right now. If this person in Tural is feeling especially ambitious, they could do worse then the treasure trove of weapons that can be found up north.
7:10 Yes actually, perhaps not for Garlemald's benefit, but rather because they wouldn't want another dictator on that empty throne. They may hate Garlemald, but I would think they would equally hate the potential for a Garlemald 2.0 headed by someone with clear aspirations for conquering. And even though most hate Garlemald, it is far better having a rehabilitated, more democratic Garlemald that has strong, positive ties to an arm of the alliance (the contingent), rather than a new one headed by a similarly bloodthirsty leader.
Alternatively, they do have a resource: A lot of people that know how to make usable war machines and weapons based on Ceruleum, a resource that is in abundance in The New World. This could be an Operation Paperclip.
Why would anyone do this? Garlemald is a frozen hell scape. The only thing they have is the Ceruleum and maybe the tech. My guess, the conquering 'hero' wants the moon. Personally speaking, if it wouldn't directly negate the twins' hard work I'd leave it to whoever. 'what about Jullus?' ...what about Jullus? He can leave at any point and I'm lukewarm to the man at best. Sympathetic story, but he was perfectly willing to activate the collars on Quinus' orders. On the forgive and forget question... Yeah no. Solus might have laid the gunpowder, but the Garleans lit the fuse.
I didn't take that part of the MSQ as "they plan to invade Garlemald", but as "the most fearsome enemy has fallen, so let's take advantage to conquer the other nations and prove our strenght". But even if it came as an invasion to Garlemald itself, it wouldn't be as simple to just head straight there and place a little flag on the tower. They'd need to conquer all the surrounding area, and even some other nations on their way there, to gather provisions and endure the cold. It wouldn't mean just war to Garlemald, but to various other nations as well.
I don't think Dawntrail is gonna linger on the Garleans much. It's just a convenient way to get the players to the new maps. I think we'll see most of their struggles glossed over in the MSQ while giving a few side quests to flesh out that issue
It looked like it was being set up for them to come back to. Alphinaud and a Scion staying in place indicated that there would be a return. That said, I would suggest looking at the record of the post world war countries. Germany had a process of Reconciliation, which would be a plotline we would probably have to deal with assisting in. But Square Enix is literally headquartered in one of the nations that participated in WWII. They also had reconciliation and an intense cultural swords-to-plows beat that has been noted and remarked on, part of which appears as the Japanese media trope of killing gods. They had a divine god-emperor then, and afterwards they made a big show of distancing themselves from that past. Further, America seemed to be tolerated after mowing through the constituent nations that it decided to eradicate. In a geopolitical arena, nations care a lot less about revenge than you think.
honestly im very interested to see if the recent resurgence in conflict between israel and palestine is going to affect how they handle garlemald in the coming expansion
Your discussion today Sir was really thought provoking and I cannot deny it Sir. I cannot deny that before we got Endwalker I was all for invading Garlamald and taking the fight to them for every they have done from ARR to SHB. I wanted to make them pay for everything they have done sure. I guess I can see why people of the world of Etheiryis wouldn't bat an eye if someone brought " retribution" for the tragedy they have caused
I think it’s a logistic issue with invading Garlemald. I don’t think the Mamool Ja, even with an army of mixed races, can survive the environment of Garlemald. Even with proper clothing to keep them warm.
If we look at world wars in our realm, we can compare how people feel about Garlemald to how they felt about the losers of those conflicts. The victors write the history, so ultimately Garlemald will always be seen as evil, but not everyone will have felt that way. Garlean citizens felt like their conquering was very just and their heroes were very brave. Certainly some will take pity on them but for several generations I imagine Garleans will have to contend with their dark pasts.
2:55 Oh I NEVER forgot what Emet-Selch did. Thats why I'm not one of his legions of fangirls. Anything Garlemald did is his fault. The Waking Sands being shot up. Ilberd and everything HE did to us. Papalymo. All of Bozja. Fordola. Varis blowing up Ysayle.
I have been thinking about this a lot., so here are my long thoughts: I wouldn't say its a writing mistake, but I feel like we've been lacking reactions from people who do not know as much as the Scions know about the Ascian involvement, and even so, people who would still make them responsible for all those years of war. As you say, its not going to be a "forgive and forget" for most people. Still, I do not think people will cheer for people who invade and masacre a state that is known to have fallen nowadays, but they probably wouldn't care enough to fight for that country, I think. Since my WoL/OC story highly involves this topic, being a Dalmascan and all, I've been thinking about this a lot, trying to figure out HOW and IF he would be able to forgive them as a nation, after all this years of hate against them. By extension, im asking the same question thinking about people who have suffered and hated so much because of the Garlean Empire. I feel like the MSQ is HIGHLY downplaying the situation, but I also know they would need a LOT of time put into the MSQ to resolve this, and they wanna move away from it and start a new story (kinda) in the new world. So im in this position where I think "Okay, I guess people don't doubt the scion's words, and they are willing to forgive and forget extremely easy" as a shortcut to properly deal with all the social an political consequences of all of this on the MSQ, a topic that prolly a lot of players wouldn't enjoy.
It's probably not going to be brought up again, but I definitely didn't like how brushed off the whole situation was. Especially since we have no way to gauge if what the twins did was well recieved.
I don't see them going after Garlemald first, probably either Sharlyan or Limsa Lominsa. Garlemald is weak sure, but other than Ceruleum what does it offer? Sharlyan is historically neutral and they might assume that makes them an easy target (depending on how much they know about the moon bunnies sharing tech with them), and that gives them a staging ground to get to Eorzea. Alternatively they might sail right past Sharlyan (relying on that neutrality) and go for La Noscea to smash the biggest naval power that would otherwise harass them, and have that island as good harbor and staging ground. Hingan and Thavnir might sounds like good options, but the extra travel distance is likely to hamper them unless they want to set sail to their West. And I don't know anything about what is to their West that might get in their way before getting to Thavnir or Hingen.
Basically: Think of anything and everything that happened to Germany or Japan afrer WW2, and it's probably going to happen to Garlemald. -War crimes trials -Former conscripts becoming second-class citizens in their own homelands -Collaborators getting kidnapped and interrogated or even straight up jumped or iced in the streets
Based on the info we have on Ilsabard at this point, what would be the reason to invade a frozen wasteland? There are a lot of more efficient ways to farm ceruleum.
who said he is aiming for garlemald, he could be going after the whole central continent since we recently stopped a war and america ...ehem i mean tural had 60 years of peace
Just look at American Slavery and the tension that this country still faces quite often because of it. I think it’s reasonable for the world to hate Garlemald right now. Hell I still hate Ul’dah to an extent from that bs that we got hit with back in 2.55 (man i miss that time). So yeah, tbh I would also possibly conveniently oversleep the day they get invaded if i could….but the WoL wouldnt do that….i guess…..
I wonder, do they even have the resources to even attempt shuch a feet? Garlimald isn't exactly a hop skip and a jump away. Just getting there might be more of an obstacle than the Garlians themselves. They have very rugged terrain to traverse in order to get there. Also, how would a people accustomed to a warm and humid climate fair in a frigid dry one? They could lose half their forces to the cold if they are not properly prepared. So it won't be as easy, then they thought it would. Its not the Garlians or even the Isabard contingent they need to worry about but the very land itself.
Frankly, most people won't care for Ascian involvement - for most people there is a reason Ascians chose Garlemald instead of Ulthard or Gridania, making them think Garlean mentality is that of conquest and fearing what will happen once they rebuild and a generation or two pass and get their own ambitions.
I don't think Garlemald is going to be easily forgiven at all. I don't think we will deal with it in a large for at least an expansion, since 7.0 is supposed to be our 'vacation'. Some of the Garlean commanders were vile people, the one in the Weapons Trials whose name escapes me atm being a prime example. People can say all day how the Garlean people were being manipulated.. But the act so many of them did in a position of power, from the lowest soldiers to the highest commanders was cruel beyond measure.
Honestly garlemald was a very very interesting experience idiotically wise (especially since I'm German and always had a very detached view to history since i simply couldn't (and luckily still can't) understand how people valued other people so lowly. Honestly, i can't blame the other nations and people to forsake them, in my eyes even those 10 percent or even less are kinda too much, their kin slaughtered, ravaged, plundered, enslaved and probably even ra*** every non garlean with very few exceptions. They willingly pushed back and even attacked those that tried to help them and then when they barely got a leg on even dared to try and call claims. I just say "oh but it's our royal castle mimimi, well then pay the repairs for damage and lost life those towers created in every other country, or compensate for every other damage you caused, oh you don't know what i mean? Time to drag you to bozia. Oh and right.... just forget how you'd by now have freezed to death without us. But sure, glory to the rotting cold starved garlean Empire." In some cutscenes i really just wished that instead of following a and a's humanitarian fun adventure we'd just instead went in there and cleared the snow fields from that living rubble. Think about it, was there a single Time in garlemald where we didn't need to teach people their place? Oh right, there wasn't.
How many of the common people even know about the Ascians? Much less know Solus zos Galvus was possessed by Emet-Selch? Not many I expect; it would probably be dangerous for that information to become widespread. Without that information, there is no mitigating circumstance in the minds of those people. And I don't think knowing that truth would help the Garleans long term, it would just further entrench their distrust for outsiders and magic further.
huh i didn't take it that the guy was planning to invade Garlemald specifically but rather invade the east in general since the Garlean Army no longer had the majority of it under thumb.
I’m speculating a bit but if the warmonger candidate is wanting to invade garlemald, wouldn’t they also want to continue from there and try to invade the other countries as well? I mean I’m not sure how the other city states are doing right now but I think the final days have drained resources from them so maybe the warmonger candidate wants to invade garlemald to set up like a staging ground to invade the other city states?
I personally doubt that this will ever be addressed, because momentary dark moments are fine in a final fantasy series, but dealing with the actual real world repurcussions is too much thematic shift for the series. It would be too outside of Final Fantasy to really and seriously address this, and it would undermine the "Power of Friendship" message that saturates the series.
I think 14 plays its political storylines straight enough that the conquerer doesn't need a particular reason to conquer Garlemald. Garlemald has ceruleum. It's incredibly weak and has no allies. It can be conquered so Tural might attempt to conquer it.
Weren't the Garleans chased out and persecuted everywhere before becoming an Empire? It's quite realistic for most nations not to remember that but only the more recent decades
The difficulty with Garlemald is it vvery deep inside the continent. As much as its neighbors wouldn't mind the former empire getting a taste of its own medicine, none would agree to let a foreign army pass through their own country to get there... It remains to be seen what war capacities they have in the New World, some of the settings we were shown look quite high-tech, maybe they will be the Americans to the Russian Garlemald. But on the other hand, both Allag and Garlemald technology are linked to the Ascians, if I'm not mistaken, would they have armed another kingdom on the other side of the sea? Or is there some other actor implied there which we are yet to be introduced? Also, many a country fear the collapse of a neighbor, foreseeing waves and waves of refugees coming their way (China and South Korea with the North Korea zombie state, for a modern example). They want them miserable, but not miserable enough to flee their snow holes. As for all countries just getting along as if nothing happened... it's always hard to tell when the script writer is Japanese. It's pretty much how it went for them after WWII. They have invaded neighboring countries, their administration have been brutal... and they pretty much have been let go without much problems because the Americans said so... As long as the other countries work to integrate Garlemald without too much of a fuse, it could go rather smoothly, even if the general population ressent their former tyrants. As long as they stay in their snow holes, like Japanese didn't try to rule anything outside their islands, it could somehow work.
I thought some more about it... At the end of WWII, the victors demanded Japanese to give their emperor's head. The Japanese counter offer that the emperor lose his god title and that the higher up in the army would give their live in his stead. For Garlemald, the emperor's line is now dead and one of the general even gave his life. They will probably be good, even if it takes a few generations for relationship to normalize.
I really wanted a firmament/doman enclave-esque garlemald restoration and instead we got cosmic exploration.. I'm disappointed but I also understand why it hasn't happened.. yet.
Think another major issue is Garlemald crumbling under the weight of its own taught racism and superiority complex too. You can't immediately accept unity when you have been trained for generations to despise and be xenophobic towards other nations, even if they are helping you. They're gonna have to overcome their own biases as well as their socio-economic struggles
I will say that one thing I've always been uncomfortable with in FFXIV is how they've treated Garlemald. Sure. It's the Ascians who did it, but the Ascians were not the ones who ran the empire. It was thousands upon thousands of individuals who chose to perpetuate the horrific expansion of the empire and maintained and developed the system. And I can only truly think of one time in the story where the people who were in charge weren't treated as victims deserving of sympathy, and it was not in the MSQ. I can think of 'many' 'many' times where their victims were treated as being shortsighted or wrong headed for disliking these characters. But every one of them have been side characters. I think we could really use a character who doesn't forgive the Garlean people for what they did, and thinks they deserve what they got. If only so that there can be some form of nuance on the story. In the list below I'm not going to list traitors like Cid, or Maxima. They showed the nuance of the situation plenty well. These were all loyalist characters until they were beaten. - Fordola, while she was raised in this system, chose to slaughter, beat, maim, and torture countless innocent people with the blades. But she winds up forgiven by the story, even though she's tormented by her visions, her victims are constantly told that they are wrong for their mistrust and hatred, and that they should feel bad due to her circumstances in nearly every appearance. - Gaius conquered entire nations, and he's the only one who's had real comeuppance for what he did. But it's not in the form of recognition for his crimes by the nations, instead they maintain him in said position, with the torment of his children. - Varis is treated with pity despite the fact he was a murderous tyrant for his entire life. - Noah is treated as a 'noble opponent'. - Yotsuyu is never forgiven, but even she's given depth through her redemption arc. - Emet Selch. Nuff said. Even the players forgive everything he's done. - Zenos... Nuff said. See above. 'The one' and only time that a Garlean has been treated with complete and total disdain for their actions by the main cast is the villain in Werlyt. But he's a psychopathic monster and so one note I can't recall his name.
You're not entirely wrong. The characters and MSQ of Endwalker were very quick to suddenly be in the, "Garlemald is a country of victims!" mentality. However I think a lot of that might have to do with the fact that Garlemald was supposed to get its own expansion and got smooshed into Endwalker.
@@SynodicScribe I don't really even think it's a problem with Endwalker. This has been the consistent throughline of writing for Garlemald since Nero, and in particular I've always been extremely uncomfortable with how Fordola was treated in no small part because I've researched the history of collaborators in those types of regimes, and while FFXIV has chosen to write the character as redeemable. They have not shown the same courtesy to their victims.
@@fredy2041Every German? No but Himler, Rommel, and the officers who commanded their soldiers were. Just to make it clear we’re talking the commanding officers who chose how to engage and enact the system.
This feels pretty uncharitable to FFXIV. Fordola is disliked by a *lot* of people in-universe, and I don’t remember anyone being portrayed as in the wrong for not really forgiving her (in fact, she’s still basically a captive even after her EW role quest). Gaius was a voice of reason among the Garlean legatii, and he still had to do a *lot* to earn the trust of someone he had with him for a *while.* Varis is treated with pity specifically in the context of becoming Anima, and he’s justifiably treated as a monster the rest of the time. Noah, I can’t say much on, admittedly. Yotsuyu is pretty much only given a second chance due to losing her memory, and things play out the way they do because she considered *herself* beyond redemption. Emet Selch… Yeah, I’ll give you that one. Zenos is hated in-universe by *literally everyone* except the WoL, and even then, the WoL thing depends on the player. Yeah, a lot of them are portrayed as redeemable, but I don’t think the game ever calls anyone out for not forgiving them unless they do something *really* stupid because of it.
@@AzureGreatheart Oh sure, and I don't disagree here. The fundamental issue I take is that those people are treated as being wrong, or misguided for their distrust. In Fordola's role quest, characters lecture the mother of a child she saved for being fearful of Fordola. They call Ala'mhigans who are uncomfortable with the idea of the remembrance happening for both the skulls, and Ala'mhigans who lost their lives to the Garleans misguided, and there are dozens of examples of it. Yotsuyu and Gaius I'm willing to give ground on here as it's the only time I can think of where the story is done 'well'. However in Yotsuyu's case, she's not punished for her crimes but treated as a victim of circumstance. And in Gaius's case, he's punished by the world, but proven right in regards to his ideology, he just fought for the wrong cause. Even with Zenos they wanted to imprison him rather than kill him despite all he had done, now that could be Lyse. Thinking back on it, he's actually handled the best out of all of them in this regard. So I'll give it to ya. I think it's odd with him because he's not really a massive figure in Garlemald. Jullus actually gets a perfect moment that I would want for a character in this situation. He doesn't kill his enemy, but he still refuses the world view, he still castigates everything they did as wrong, and he's not treated as being wrong for thinking that way. Thinking on it more, the fundamental problem I take is that at this point the character isn't a Garlean figure. Zenos is just... Zenos. I suppose my issue is just fundamentally that they don't give time to the victims of Garlean rule in comparison to the officers themselves. There are two exceptions I can think of, but even they are characters who's story role is to say "I don't like who they are, but they're still alive and have a role to play." (Those being the village leader Fordola saves, and the sniper dude who chills with Gaius.) Rather than someone who lost family to them, lost loved ones, and wants this character who we as fan's like gone, and punished... And isn't treated as being wrong headed or ignorant for it in the story. While also not ending the arc on a 'well I guess they deserve to stay around' type of note. It didn't become an issue until I did the EW role quest, and Rauhbhan took off Fordola's collar and is no longer restricting her to a cell.
hooboy. This is rather interesting. I dislike vengeance. It's ugly and scary, even when justified. Though perhaps people need to see it through others to realize how scary it is. I could see FFXIV going deep with this theme.
Course it is. My character in rps is still mad at them! Waiting for an excuse to Fell Cleave them. She knows Emet caused the empire but she doesn't see that as an excuse just the why. Looking forward to Dawntrail as an excuse for my group to split and fight. Don't take that as me that's just my main. My alt he is Bozjan and happily aiding the Republic. Most can't understand the Ascian so no shocked we haven't already seen riots.
If anyone else here played World of Warcraft first, I feel like a good comparison would be to the fall of Quel’thalas. In both cases, a fraction of the population *survived* the fall, and the monsters that caused it are likely going to be a pain to completely get rid of. The big difference is that the most obvious leaders to get things back together also died here, and also almost everyone hates Garlemald. This isn’t something you rebuild from; the old Garlemald is effectively dead, and what comes next will be something new.
If you don't understand Garlemald's position than you haven't been paying attention to Realm Reborn and Stormblood, the most content filled expansions in FF14 that all center on the threat of Garlemald. You keep saying "you'd be surprised" and "Not as many people helped the contingent that you'd assume" and doing weird numbers things with Lyse to explain Garlemald's perception and I really think you're missing the meat. Describing Garlemald's sins as just a "bloody war" is selling it short. The fact you went this entire video without using the words oppression, colonization and facisim is shocking to me. Long story short, for all intents and purposes Etheriyis has to decide whether Garlemald deserves a right to exist. They've wiped out country's and cultures themselves, why should theirs be redeemed? If someone doesn't want to support Garlemald and would rather it not exist it's a fair perspective at worst and can be argued morally correct at best.
WoL: "Oh boy, here I go directly causing another world civil war!"
The Grand Company the WoL is currently tied to: *Trying to not notice the ambient music turned to combat.*
Still think the other New World guy who wants the throne just wants to become a conquering empire. Not to go after Garlemald specifically. That said I agree Garlemald is in a bad position and could face more trouble. I just don't think they will. I think the writers want to cut ties with all old plots/settings/etc. They have NUKED every mystery they could during Endwalker.
EDIT: Also I would love to see the tropical armies of the southern portion of the new world invade garlemald. Go ahead. Invade Russia in winter.
Agreed. The older plotlines will still be around in the firm of lasting consequences
Garlemald made themselves a massive target, and all that bad blood isn't going to go away overnight just because the final days hit them harder than anyone else
We will have to deal with those consequences going forward, Yeah, going forward, it's a new era
I think that’s what it is. The potential ruler could just see Garlemald as a weak target. Let’s not forget that they have access to a lot of ceruleam which could also be their true target. Even if he did, would Garlemalds neighbours really be all that happy? Even if they hate Garlemald, they could just be letting another set of potential invaders right in.
It makes sense. Not everyone in Tural is aware of just how bad are things in Garlemald, but they do know how strong they were at one point, so if you wipe out the Garlemald survivors, you can go back to Turel and brag how you singlehandedly wiped out the biggest threat in the other side of the world
Tural also has many different climates, so it’s not like they’d be unprepared for the concept of winter. If anything the bigger problem is they probably know how to exploit cerulem and strip mining Garlemand for it might be their real goal as they aren’t allowed to do so in their own lands. The blu quests where that Sharlyan scholar tried to exploit their people might even be what tipped the scales towards conquest against outside nations while giving them ideas.
I have seen a lot of people talking about "the guy who wants to invade Garlemald" and that's not the impression that I got at all. He intends to invade the western continents now that Garlemald is out of the way. It wouldn't even make sense, they have nothing to conquer.
I feel like Square Enix put too much effort into little mutant moon rabbits when they had the golden opportunity to really expand on a people who have been the primary antagonists across three expansions. As somebody that has been playing D&D and world building for twenty+ years, that was one hell of a missed opportunity. I digress.
If we can restore the Doman Enclave, we can restore Garlemald. Also, I feel that Thavnairian or Garlean housing would be infinitely better than Sharlayan housing.
Typically people elaborate when they make such a claim, and my comment was an opinion which by definition cannot be wrong. So I think what you were trying ito say is, we have a difference of opnion.@@fredy2041
You do not even know what my point is beyond my opinion of it being a wasted opportunity to expand on a culture in the game. Additionally, you've not made any point. Instead, you've said an opinion is wrong which is an impossibility by defintion, and assumed that I did not like the expansion basesd off...what? Seriously, I don't have time for this and you have better things you could be doing besides baselessly trolling an opinion that is not yours. So would you kindly just drop this? The last question was actually rhetorical, and was me trying to be polite instead of saying "I don't argue with WoW players."@@fredy2041
@@fredy2041lmao, why he shouldn't be here?
What I took from Wuk's line about the warmonger was that - he didnt want to invade Garlemald specifically; rather their demise was seen as Eorzea / Othard losing one of the most powerful and advanced military forces outside of the New World. Garlemald was a deterrent and forced Turyal to focus on protecting the homeland. Part of the British Empire's success was that it incorporated all aspects of its territory uniqueness into its forces... Garlemald did much the same based off of what we see of the various legions.
Besides.... to get Islabard you've got to march through Eorzea first....Warmonger is probably planning on attacking / conquering there first.
That's also how I understood it. With Garlemald gone they were free to expand their empire. After all, you can't even reach Garlemald without going through Eorzea. I need to rewatch that scene to see if I'm misunderstanding.
@@MissKashiraThis was my same understanding and I commented as much on Synoptics last video on this subject. I'd say Garlemalds biggest threat is their previous neighboring provinces wanting revenge, but likewise their inhospitable terrain would serve as a powerful deterrent.. At least until their summer comes around..
While I agree with you about what Wuk Lamat said, I don't think you have to march through Eorzea to get to Garlemald. If Turali invaders _did_ want to go directly to Garlemald/Ilsabard, they could simply go around Aldernard to the north, through the Northern Empty.
No you wouldn't. Ilsabard isn't landlocked - you could just land on the north-western coast, which is still (afaik) Garlean territory.
@@DarthSanguine It wasn't cause I thought they were landlocked. It's because I thought it was a difficult trip which is why not many of them are here and not many of us are there. If they can hold enough food and water in their ships to move their entire army around Eorzea, it feels like they should be popping by every weekend.
Thanks for making these videos inbetween the long wait until dawntrail. Its making me more and more excited for the future of the MSQ
All I have to say is this: If Mobile Suit Gundam has taught us anything is that War of any kind and what goes on behind the scenes is just a big game of chess. Yes Garlemald has blood on its hands (an Ocean's worth of you will) and even in times of peace NO one is going to just "forgive and forget" just like that! My Grandfather who served both World Wars said this to me when I started middle school "If there was one thing I was ever sure of as a soldier is that there could be hundreds of innocent people and your superiors, leaders, and government would not care. You just follow your orders do as you're told and shut up! Makes me wonder what the real requirements of a purple heart is" to this day those words haunt me so even with that if this Warmonger in DawnTrial does invade let's just say he'll find a LOT of allies.
Honestly, this is something I'm seeing people forget a lot and I appreciate you bringing it up. Garlemald's current plight is - in a way - their own doing.
This isn't a thing that happened a few hundred years ago and there's an ancestral grudge going on like how most of the people Nidhogg caused suffering for had nothing to do with the betrayal of Ratatoskr. Many of the people of Orthard, Bozja, Ala Mhigo, hell even the rest of Eorzea, that you interact with watched Garlemald send their friends, family, lovers, even their children off to war - shipping them to whatever warzone to _die_ because Garlemald saw then as "lesser savages".
Sure, Garlemald _internally_ has improved but their foreign relations are still in the gutter and it's going to take more than a rousing speech from Alphinaud to change that. The Doman father who watched his daughter be taken from their home and sent off to Bozja never to return isn't going to go "oh that's okay then, they were being mislead!" it's going to be "cool, should've sorted that problem out _before_ they sent my daughter to die." Good intentions and a new leaf doesn't bring their loved ones back from the grave, and I would be surprised and honestly kinda disappointed if Dawntrail just makes everyone forgive Garlemald at the drop of a hat (or has some forgive them, then present those who don't as "wrong" or "evil" in some way because that's honestly a super childish way to look at such a situation.)
I suspect it is more likely that it won't be brought up as Tural has almost nothing to do with Garlemald and most of the general expansion will likely be focused on the events taking place in Tural and probably little to do with anything going on the three continent outside of some comments from the twins. They probably won't make people just forgive Garlemald but they probably won't spend too much time bring it up either.. I wouldn't expect much from Base Story Dawntrail in that regard.
Totally agreed. That part of the MSQ honestly irked me
I absolutely agree. All of Garlemald's problems were seemingly solved, but only on the shallowest level. Sure, the Twins might have overly optimistic charisma on their side, but realistically that's not gonna do much for peaceful relations in the long term, and Endwalker's MSQ missed a BIG opportunity by not exploring this further.
The world doesn't just revolve around the WoL and the Scions, and I feel like a lot of the fandom (and the Endwalker writers) tends to forget this. The average citizen probably isn't aware of the existence of Ascians, and probably won't take kindly to suddenly treating them like they did nothing wrong even if their nation actually was being maniuplated.
This is why Heavensward was so good: it actually took the time to explore the consequences of toppling a 1000-year regime. The citizens of Ishgard were only taking the WoL and Aymeric's word on everything that happened; they had no way of knowing that Thordan was actually a primal hell-bent on tempering all humanity, so of course a lot of people would think it was simply a power grab. Not to mention they explored issues from the other side too, mentioning how innocent priests were victims of misplaced anger.
I'm hoping now that we have a new lead writer for Dawntrail they'll eventually go back and explore this more, because I seriously think Endwalker was robbed.
@@truesoprano2152 Honestly Heavensward handled this sort of brilliant prior to the Thordan fight as well.
You KNOW Thordan is a prick but can't do anything about it because of the ramifications "The Warrior of Light, recently accused of regicide, _just committed regicide"_ would bring. Similar to the post-Stormblood MSQ (Before the buildup to Shadowbringers), you KNOW Asahi is an evil twat but can't do anything about it because "the Warrior of Light kills Garlean diplomat" would look HORRIBLE and just facilitate more war.
It's the difference between "main character of the plot" and "main character of the world" which I felt Endwalker as you said, kind of forgot.
If what I've heard about Dawntrail is true I'm really looking forward to it, not the most stoked about Solution 9 but I'm willing to wait and see how they handle that.
@@truesoprano2152 Endwalker suffered from Stormblood's issue of trying to balance multiple storylines (Garlemald, the Ancients, and the plantets in the rest of the universe), and that came about because they decided to scrap the Garlemald-focused expansion and just give us everything all at once.
y'know what one mystery is currently unsolved.?
Travanchet.
implied to be an agent working for Ascians, or maybe an Ascian himself.
Last I know, is that he was kindof responsible for Alexander.
There's also whatever Halmarut, and Pashtarot are doing., as we kinda know Altima and Deudalaphon are, for the moment, out of the picture. (Thanks to Gaius), but who knows what would happen if they did return.
TBH, my headcannon was he was simply being a skinpuppet for an Ascian. Which one is of course unclear. Personal headcannon is 1.0 Lahabraea or Elidabis but that's just me.
I feel like we're gonna meet at least one unemployed Ascian in DT's newest NR or probably just stumble upon the civilization they created since Solution 9 looks suspicious. Either Altima, Deudalaphon, etc, I can't wait to see the story.
60-70 years of horrific treatment of other nations would take around 2-3 times as long to heal in an ideal scenario, and that's a pretty generous lowball even when you don't factor in the more long-lived races like viera or elezen
There are realistic ways the process could be sped up, but yeah, Garlemald is going to be hated by most of the world for a few more expansions at least.
The big threat to Garlemald is Nhaza'a Jaab stalking the snow there trying to capture lone bunnies that land from the moon
Let's be honest, just on the top of my head, Garlemald to the layman, as an organized society under the Empire:
- Committed massive expansionist wars, only properly stymied and reversed when the Alliance went on the offensive in 2.0 and again in 4.0
- Allowed for extremely harsh reagents in various Garlean enclaves, who often treated people with extreme cruelty in their own seats of power and glory (ohai Yosetsu didn't see you there.)
- Was more than complacent with extremely dubious experimental sciences, often with major death tolls of failed subjects involved that included Garleans themselves (Resonance, Meteor, the Weapons, Black Rose, we could go on.)
- Their regencies if anything made situations worse. As pointed out several times, no matter how hard Garlemald cracked down on the empire, primals never ceased to be an issue, and more were usually summoned regardless. Stormblood kinda dropped the ball on that past Shinryu itself, but it's a constant threat of discussion whenever the Scions are on the travel.
- STAGED THE 7TH UMBRAL ERA. This really cannot be overstated on their crime list, and despite how understated Nael can be in modern FF14, her actions ushered in a new and unstable generation, one plagued with all sorts of horrible and unknown reactions, such as Ishguard's endless winter.
- Finally, and one that became more and more important to the laymen, the cavorting and harboring of Ascians, especially the Unsundered ringleaders. Even if we don't count the untold billions slaughtered on the seven shards sacrificed to the Source, or the crimes committed against the 1st and 13th, but strictly the machinations and manipulations that became more and more widespread as the Eorzian Alliance waxed stronger more than showed such a threat these beings were, and the Garleans willing to work with them at the highest levels would draw any layman ire.
That's a great compilation of their war crimes. Someone should send this memo to the twins.
Not to mention, many, many of 2.0's FATES, which are supposed to be in-lore these smaller, but still prominate attacks and disruptions on Eorzea's ecosystem and civilian population, was a direct result from Bahamut's summoning. Not to mention the country itself was permanently transformed and disfigured due to his explosive and devastating release. The 7th Umbral Calamity cannot be understated here.
@@kiearawagner7901 FATES, a handful of dungeons, AND beast tribe strongholds like the Sapta Spawning Grounds all stem from the 7th Calamity especially, either from the pullback from locations the city-states did or direct intervention of the corruptive aether. It's also the main reason the quartet of Castrums even got onto Alliance soil to start with, if I recall correctly.
@julianhcastro I would hope if the Garlean storyline is picked up again, that at least Alphanaud would be well aware of this, as he was always the more geopolitical focused of the Wonder Twins, but them and their damn optimism has been hit in the face before like the Crystal Braves. We'll have to see.
@@gratuitouslurking8610 Indeed. So, I hope the game doesn't try to pull something like "you see, the Garleans weren't actually THAT BAD, they just had corrupt leaders like Emet-Selch..."
I'm sorry, but ultimently, the Garleans still went with 60-70 years of conquest and genocide.
It wasn't Emet-Selch telling the Garleans in Ala Mhigo to stand back and allow Fordoloa's father to be stoned to death by their own kin, and it wasn't Emet-Selch controlling the general hatred of Garleans to the outside world, he simply planted the seeds.
I'm not saying I want to see them destroyed, because, quite honestly, I feel at this point they are at the lowest and striking now would be like kicking a body, plus the Garlamald of Hate is no more, so something new and positive can rise in its place instead.
But I feel the developers shouldn't lampshade the fact that for nearly a century this country aimed to dominate the world and her people.
@@kiearawagner7901So did Japan, where the writers live. So has America, and we don't do more than grumble.
They paint them as victims of circumstances but forchenault rips that notion in half in the final role quest. Given the choice my Wol WOULD not of helped
You're not entirely wrong. It's the difference between idealistic teenagers and their father who's seen the best and worst of entire civilizations. haha
Unfortunately for Garlemald, Emet Selch can't be used as an excuse politically, because the Ascians and their ultimate goal are not really public knowledge at all. Moreover, the manipulation by Ascians just... can't be anywhere near enough to absolve the Garleans wrongdoing. I certainly expect them to not drop this issue.
I think the point was that the Ilsabard Contingent was formed because it was the right thing to do, regardless of how the people in it felt, and that doing the right thing means setting aside prejudice and vengeance.
Thanks a TON for the upload! It pretty much reflected all of my feelings on the matter. Yes, it would be naive in the extreme to think that Garlemald's woes are over. Especially when the former provinces would likely hold a great deal of animosity towards them.
If WWII taught me anything, "just following orders" isn't an excuse for ignoring morality and empathy and often times during trials was that used to jail some soldiers as admittance of knowing wrong was done by putting a job over human decency.
TO BE HONEST, despite all of that, I still think delivering the coup de grace to Garlemald is still hard. Even with the 1/4th chance that this royal candidate is from the northern side of Tural, therefore making them used to the cold, It will still be hard to get to Garlemald.
Geographically, Garlemald's a fuckin fortress. Mountains, extreme blizzards, and scarce resources to forage, harsh terrain bent on making logistics hell. To get to the country proper, the Turali army would most likely go through the northernmost sea, land near the volcanic regions where the Hellsguard originate from, and the native Hellsguard certainly won't allow someone to dock in their beaches willy nilly without some resistance or diplomacy. EVEN THEN, they would still go through Dravania (which the dragons won't definitely like seeing an army going through their lands) and possibly Ala Mhigo (which is definitely not their climate).
Or to the south, which would be a logistical nightmare, since they would have to sail from Northern Tural, down the Indigo Deep, Rhotano Sea, Sea of Ash, and into the Sea of Jade (which is Hannish territory and Radz-at-Han are Garlean allies). Same goes if they were to go around the world to go through the Blindfrost sea towards northwest Othard (again, a swamp/bog which is not their climate or terrain.), AND WILL ALSO GO THROUGH Doma, The Burn, and the fallen capital of Bozja as well (which is rendered unhospitable because of the Meteor Project). So I still think they are somewhat safe from invasion. But I still think they are still not out of the deep in other ways.
There’s also the fact that their military isn’t *quite* wiped out. There’s a bunch of berserk warmachina wandering around, and also likely Telophoroi remnants and terminus beasts that nobody has dealt with yet.
Why would they have to be from the north? The far south (which is still covered in fog) could be the cold part of Tural as well, especially since most of Xak Tural seems to be desert.
Also, why the hell would the Turali army have to invade Eorzea or Othard first? Ilsabard has its OWN coastline, which is perfectly accessible to an invading armada.
I think its more likely that the New World Prince wants to conquer Garlemald for its resources. Sweet sweet oil, I mean Ceruleum. Blue gold. The guy wants to make tuliyollal the America of Ethirys. Might use bringing down the evil Garleans as a good excuse for it though.
I would not be surprised if there is also a plot point where he is involved in pushing the Whalaqee out of their nice ceruleum spot too.
The major bone of contention, in my estimation, is going to be Locus Amoenus, a.k.a. Corvos. I can see Garlemald freely returning sovereignty to every other nation they conquered, *except* Corvos. The Garlean cultural memory of having been forcibly driven out of Locus Amoenus runs deep, deep enough that 800 years after being displaced, Emet-Selch was able to use that cultural grudge as onus to launch the first wave of invasions, culminating with the reclaiming of Corvos; their Home Beyond the Horizon, as the patriotic song calls it. It was that war that created the idea behind the red link in their banner; the sacrifices made to take back the land stolen from them by the people who became the Corvosi.
And I don't fully agree with Forchenault's opinion at the end of the Role Quests. Just because the region was owned by difference nations and societies before the Gougans settled there, this does not mean they do not still have a claim. There is a difference between land changing hands due to the collapse of one nation freeing it up, and being forcibly displaced from it. Further, they were displaced after "centuries" of prolonged war; they fought tooth and nail to keep it in a war of attrition that they eventually couldn't sustain. Their clockwork was not enough to level the playing field with the magic they were up against.
The cultural memory of that is defining for the people of Garlemald. That lessons of that war, their displacement, and the harassment they faced on the long migration north into the frozen wastes, are now as deeply rooted in Garlean culture as the Elementals are to Gridania.
The suggestion that they relinquish the one stretch of land that they have a true historical claim to would be resisted with passion by every Garlean, and forcing them to relinquish it at the diplomatic table would be seen as an affront and an exploitation of their weak position, rather than a rational concession. Any Garlean would see a repeat of history in such an action: the magic-wielding nations of the world once again singling out and dictating the fate of the magicless Garleans. It would nurture a spark of resentment that would only perpetuate, not resolve, the Garlean distrust of magic and magic users.
I think a lot of what Garlemald faces could also be faced by the beast tribes. I do hope that many of those in the city states would see the similarities between the suffering caused by both sides in the fights with the beast tribes.
There is also the question about what happens to those who threw their lot in with the Empire during and after it’s invasions.
Maybe this could all be a plot for a future expansion.
100% agree, and I'll be surprised and disappointed if this exact notion is never addressed. I've seen some folks say that it won't be because it's considered part of the "old story" aka all the Ascians and Calamities and Zodiark and such... but it feels like such a sore thumb in world events compared to the rest that it'd be weird not to address it.
Depends how much focus the past places we been will play into things going forward. As far as Base MSQ Dawntrail I would expect very little on that front as it I suspect we will not be venturing too far from Tural itself unless something bizarre happens. Because Garlemald did not successfully claim Eorzea, it never moved any further west so Tural knowledge of Garlemald is likely just general rumors and traveler word of mouth.
It would be strange if it was just forgotten about considering the entire reason the twins travel with us is to continue helping Garlemald.. That will inevitably lead to the expected conflicts.
Even in the miraculous event that a majority of the world realized that Emet Selch is to blame for basically everything, that wont discount their involvement in the atrocities, while not Christian, I think the quote from Kingdom of Heaven applies here "When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice." In this case God, being every nation.
On a related note, after playing thought he 6.55 MSQ, I have a theory that the "city of gold" might just be solution 9.
I think that not everyone from that majority which refused to join the contingent has to hate Garleans. We can safely assume that there’s quite a sizeable group of people who are just somewhat neutral. Something like : “I don’t want all Garleans to die and garlemald be razed to the ground, but I’m also not going to go as far as to risk my own life and safety to help them”
For everything they had done, no one could be completely neutral to Garlemald. Everyone was affected by the Seventh Umbral Calamity on varying degrees.
This comment is sadly indictive of real life's people's disconnection with the scale of suffering that is involved with oppression, colonization, and genocide. Y'all are gonna "both sides bad I'm an enlighted centrist" your way into facisim. Litteraly what happened in Nazi Germany.
That's the thing, though. If the roles were reversed and it was **Eorzea** limping along in a state of near-anarchy after a total societal collapse, Emperor Varis would absolutely pounce. That fact hangs over the heads of a lot of people, and they're not expecting a total democratization of Garlemald so much as they're waiting to see who the next genocidal tyrant will be to take the throne. In the minds of the survivors of Garlemald's invasions, it's little better than a douche-versus-turd sandwich argument, Scions and Primals and Ascians be damned.
Honestly I'm more surprised there isn't even the slightest bit of resentment towards the Warrior of Light and Scions "for turning the other cheek." Sure we saved all of existence but this kind of deep seated hurt isn't completely rational.
I get the feeling we're going back to Garlemald in a far-flung expansion. Some day we'll look at it from the frozen wastes and the backdrop will have visually changed. Presumably the ruins we can walk through will be treated as a monument or rogue machine-infested or something and left alone, because I can't see how enough changes could be made for a sufficiently progressed player while still being able to interact with the same map as players halfway through EW
While I generally agree with many of the comments here about it being more about Garlemald no longer being a threat at all, I do think this video still raises a valid point. It's something that at least a couple of the role quests in EndWalker made a pretty heavy point of prioritizing. There are a lot of people who wouldn't shed a tear if Garlemald was invaded
"Why not visit us in spring?"
LMAO, like that would EVER happen, maybe the same day we get Mare Lamentorum housing.
perhaps the next expansion after dawntrail will introduce alternate zones of old areas to reflect time moving forward. We'll have to wait and see
I still think this is about more than honor or heroism. I think Ceruleum is more important than we currently realize, and the Dawntrail map pictures show that there is something of a gold rush with Ceruleum happening in the new world.
In a real world case study. Garlean Aggression could be equated to the actions of a mix of WW 1 & WW 2 Germany with a large sprinkling of the Soviet Union. The collapse of Kaiser Germany, Nazi Germany, and the Fall of the Soviet empire (as it really was an Empire) look a whole lot like what Garlean is facing.
For Kaisers Germany, Europe continued hating Germany and Germans until the end of the second world war. But after the second war, with the Reconstruction paid for by the USA Germans we very quickly forgiven in less than 10 years. But this was because of Soviet Aggression and the start of the Cold War. It did help that Europe had basically divided Germany into regions which were occupied until reconstruction was over. This occupation didn't really end until the fall of the Soviet Union.
For the Soviets, well we are seeing that the imperialistic desire never left. So odds are we will see another global war.
For Garlean if Square follows real world history, than Sharlyan is the USA doing the Reconstruction and everyone has a small occupying force under guise of Aid. So all we need now is an external existential threat to unify everyone while Garlean recovers and becomes everyone ally.
Lets not forget that by taking over garlemald you gain access to abundent sources of Ceruleum and other natural resources, all of which can massively enrich any nation that holds it. And on top of that, by conquering garlemald you would have access to garlean technology, even tho it is in ruins even small advancements in a country's technological advancement can have massive multipliers in a countriy's, infulence and power. There are so many factors as to why someone would want to invade garlemald: politcal, economical, and strategic.
The other issue I never found talked about is that since there are Garleans who did fight agaisnt the Empire like Cid there will always be someone to point to that following the will of the ascians was a choice, if Cid can leave you can to. Without Zenos and other heads of state for the war to blame it means the buck is passed down to the people themsevels. Someone has to hang and someone needs to pay. The resources that given to save the ashes of the Empire could be spend on reconstruction of the mess they made, no one will trust a goverment of there choosing either.
They were all happy enough to put shock collars on the twins and using as bargning chips to the very end, It took the end of all things to make some of them surrender and wake up not the kind of people you want to have licking there wounds without some contorl over them.
I don't mind a Garlemald-focused expansion. Like an improved Stormblood.
I hope during a break in the 7.0 - 8.0 MSQ we help Garlemald rebuild! They are a great people that were played by their own government for far too long! Garlemald won't survive if they actually get attacked so soon after the fall of their government & the Final Days! I'd love to see them startup Magitech again & to start shipping it to other parts of the world!
I'm curious about former provinces that we don't know much about, such as Landis and Corvos (not counting Nhalmasque since they were conquered so long ago). Would they remain part of Garlemald proper or seek to break away and/or engage in conflict? Corvos seems likely given history, but Landis willingly bent the knee at least in some capacity. Plus as far as we know, they're majority hyur, so kinda more similar to the pure Garleans.
Suffice to say, there is plenty of room for us to see what becomes of a post-empire Ilsabard.
I hadn't thought about this, but it makes a lotta sense. I don't think any nations we've been to would invade. They're all either led by people sympathetic to the cause, or in their own state of rebuilding. But as for nations we haven't been to, Corvos, potentially? I don't remember hearing about that place being wrecked so they could be in a position to do something.
I think it might be more likely, though, for a band of disaffected individuals from around the 3 great continents to form their own mercenary army in order to seek revenge. If there _were_ to be a, let's call it, a Garlean Southern Front of sorts, it might e interesting to potentially have to fight seriously against characters we've previously allied with.
I don't think Turali invaders would go specifically for Garlemald. Perhaps a leader of a small warband might as a way to prove themselves. But if a conqueror were to take the throne, I believe he'd want to conquer the entirety of the 3 great continents. I don't think he'd be worried about looking like a hero.
If they do anything like a Garlean Southern Front, I really hope they give us the choice of which faction to ally, because I totally wouldn't want to fight any other nations over Garlemald.
@@julianhcastro Well, seeing as we don't (as of yet) seem to have an option for who to support in Dawntrail, I find that prospect incredibly unlikely.
There is so much potential to go into the geo-political implications of post-EW Garlemald that I hope they would touch on if not in the main Dawntrail MSQ, post-Dawntrail. I get flashbacks to history lessons on post-WWII Germany from the few scenes we get in the recent patches.
In the process of formerly subjugated nations regaining old lands, I can see them wanting to tear chunks out of Garlemald, carve up what's left like a pie, or even wipe it off the map. Right now with Garlemald's future as a big question mark, I can imagine it becoming like the other free city states, but even so the process is probably going to be messy and complicated even in real life. So much needs to be changed and rebuilt.
I doubt this ambitious brother has much fear of the Eorzean Alliance. Erenville's words in the MSQ mention the collapse of Garlemald specifically. I would think that having a very organized, powerful, and expansion minded threat in the middle and east of the lands you might want to conquer for yourself is quite a deterrent. But now the brother "sees weakness to exploit, and would lead our armies across the seas on a campaign of conquest." Coming from the west such an army would possibly have to march over Eorzea on their way. But the real goal may still wait in Garlemald.
In the wild west area of Dawntrail there are oil derricks and pipelines that seem to be venting cereleum gas. If it proves to be a province of Tural, they're probably not digging it up for something to do. They understand its value as a fuel. Now that it is known that Garlemald's military is shattered and what few in tact legions that might remain in the world are far from the homeland and occupied with their own survival, why not swoop in and seize those tremendous reserves to bolster his own rule?
I have this dream scene - seeing Alphinaud, sitting in Garlean embassy as an ambassador, trying to hold World Council (a Crystal Council? xd) and after all job done, playing "Beyond the Horizon" from the radio, while camera going far away from him. Just getting shivers thinking about it :D
I think its less about "Destroy Garlemald, they are terrible!" and more "Hey look, an easy first target." Did Garlemald even attack the new world? Are there any records of them going after them? As far as I know, the new world has be been at peace for a good bit, so I doubt it.
With that in mind, I don't think it would be a campaign of revenge. I think it's more likely they see Garlemald as an easy first target, a stepping stone. And once they take out whats left of Garlemald, they could almost CERTAINLY turn their eyes towards their next target, that being the rest of Eorzea and the world at large.
Garlemald is certainly in danger, make no mistake but its less about "saving Garlemald" for me and more about "Stopping the next Empire from starting." We don't need another blood thirsty world leader out there.
I have a feeling whatever we end up doing in Tural, it's not going to effect Garlamald directly. Think it's more likely that the provinces still within Ilsibard proper will be the biggest problem. Corvos is mentioned a few times in the MSQ as well as some side content. I would be surprised if they didn't think to strike at a vulnerable Garlamald, if not during 7.X perhaps during 8.X story.
If it wasn't obvious the giant fog of war over Garlemald is significant for a reason, we will be going there later
Could be an interesting story for post DT or 8.0. With the scions absence there's no mediator for Garlemald diplomats to even have a chance at the table. Maybe devolving the peace between the alliances, with some in support and some opting for Garlemald to just fade out
One has to wonder if a conquest of Garlemald would actually stop at Garlemald. A lot of people would definitely cheer for the destruction of Garlemald, but all of them are extremely shortsighted. There is a massive power vacuum, now, and one should be suspicious of attempts to fill it
Exactly. Also, to conquer Garlemald itself would already put the surrounding nations in jeopardy. The climate around Garlemald being inhospitable as it is, any would-be-conqueror would strategically have to create a base of operations to maintain their troops and gather supplies. The weakened nations around would be too easy of a solution to ignore.
I think it is an exaggeration to say that everyone would cheer. If Garlemald got invaded. For you see the world has already been told that Garlemald had been defeated by the warrior of light and the Sions. I think it is much more likely that if Tural invaded that most would fear it a repeat of the Garlian invasion and that they would be next.
This was also on my mind, I'm curious to see how the writers handle this story beat of how the former provinces and Eorzea handle dealing with the survivors of Garlemald. I'd personally like the WoL to explicitly just be an observer--maybe bring a mcguffin here or there, but the nations and Garlemald don't make amends because we say so, only that we're there to keep things from getting ugly.
I think this will be an huge sub plot for the next two expansions. I don’t think we will see the culmination of it until the next expansion we don’t even know how everyone is recovering Galemald yet, we will see what happens but I really feel like this is a blossoming plot line.
An excellent analysis. Don’t overlook that the people writing the story are Japanese, and thus understand the dynamics very well. I suspect that actual historical events are an invisible hand behind the writing.
While the forces Eorzea has in Garlemald is small I still feel like it will deter people from invading as to not provoke the ire of the Eorzean alliance as its probably the strongest military in that general area of the world. Personally I'm worried any sort of possible conflict will just be resolved in some sort of rebuilding Garlemald side activity where things just get talked out in a 5 minute cutscene lol.
I'll be really disappointed if this plot point is dropped or even glossed over, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I feel like we were robbed of a proper Garlemald story in Endwalker, and like you said, it was really only seen from the optimistic eyes of the Scions. Personally I'm not a fan of how Endwalker glossed over most of the political plotlines in favor of more high-stakes battles and anime-style tropes, and I'm hoping now that we're entering a new saga and have a new lead writer the story will be able to focus more on worldbuilding and politics, which is what made me fall in love with the game in the first place. I don't think any of this will be addressed in 7.0 since they're clearly gearing up to only focus on Tural, but hopefully in the post patches we'll come back to Garlemald, and perhaps it will even be a major focus in 8.0.
@@fredy2041 Garlemald was set up as a major villain ever since 1.0. Major sections of post-patches were dedicated to the ongoing conflict between the Alliance and Garlemald, only for the entire plot to be hastily resolved in one section of Endwalker. And a lot of it is done off-screen. Right before the Tower of Babil they mention how a lot of Garlean armies are suddenly falling, with very little mention of how or why. You could argue that it was just Garlemald collapsing under itself, but for a plot that's been present the entire game, it was incredibly unsatisfying to watch. It's obvious from a narrative standpoint that they just wanted to move on to the Final Days plot.
I _love_ the Garlemald story in base Endwalker, but the way they were handled in the patch storylines is very… Whelming.
@@fredy2041 you keep saying that but providing no evidence or any sort of counter argument.
@@fredy2041 ...only I literally posted my reasoning as to why I didn't think Garlemald had a satisfying arc in Endwalker. You're just saying things in a condescending way without giving me an explanation why.
@@fredy2041 you still haven't posted any proof of your arguments, you're unironically doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing, and you keep calling me "kid" which reads as you trying to insult me. You're clearly just angry that someone doesn't like a thing that you like, and it's fine to have different opinions but don't get angry and try to point this on me. I'm not responding to you anymore, you clearly don't know how to have a discussion in an intelligent way.
It would take generations to forgive Garlemald. It's not impossible, but not immediate. The thought of another empire to deal with actually raised the stakes higher for DT than I thought it would. Should be interesting where it goes.
I totally agree with your analysis, it would be an interesting plot thread to unravel, also #uncloudilsabard
Kind of a hot take, but I grew very annoyed at Alphinaud and Alisaie's arc on Garlemald. They used to be my favorite characters, specially Alphinaud, but since the MSQ's "poor innocent Garleans" take they're the ones I'm the less excited about.
Yes, they were manipulated, but they weren't innocent. Some actively dennied the empire's biggot mentality and tried to actively make changes, like Maxima, Lucia and Cid, and those have all my love. But even on their lowest, the remaining population would rather spit in the hands of those willing to help and call us monsters, while blissfully ignoring the horrors their beloved nation commited. I had no simpathy at all not even to the two girls that died trying to run away, and just thought them to be idiots.
Edit to add: no, I wouldn't preffer Garlemald razed to the ground. The few survivors deserve a new start. BUT it doesn't mean they should be absolved from everything they did. They commited genocide and almost barelly extinguished civilization in it's totallity. Forgiveness should come with accountability.
Well said, they have a lot to answer for and trying to forgive them now before we even have a proper scope of the totality of their crimes seems a little messed up, We don't even know the full scope of their atrocities because Ilsabard is covered so completely.
@@cataclysmicacedia824 if Bolzja, Ala Mhigo, Doma and Werlyt are anything to go for, they have A LOT to compensate.
When did Lucia try to actively make changes? As far as I can remember, she just defected and got caught up in Ishgard's nonsense instead.
Yeah. The moment they said that one of the people that are gunning for the throne, also have their sights on Garlemald. I knew this wasn’t going to go down well.
If the WoL doesn’t head this off. Then this could wind up being a larger war than the one in Storm Blood. Eorzea and Garlemald are in peace talks right now. But the iron is still hot. So it can either fall apart, and we have a 3-way war. Or Garlemald and Eorzea join forces. And we have a war between super powers. Either way, it’s bad.
They definitely hint at some Garlemald involvement in Dawntrail, in that last Island Sanctuary quest - about 'coming to see their homeland in the summer.' It will be interesting to see what happens!!!
@@fredy2041 There was; Jullus says he can't wait until Garlemald is doing better, and perhaps come summer you can come visit.
@@riaglitta Perhaps alternate zones come 8.0 to reflect time moving forward.
I’m genuinely mad that my notifs haven’t been going off for your channel. I thought you were just inactive and instead UA-cam just blows. On the plus side, I’ve got a lot of good vids to binge now 😂
I think it should also be pointed out that Garlemald is host all manner of continent conquering magitech that's fairly poorly defended right now. If this person in Tural is feeling especially ambitious, they could do worse then the treasure trove of weapons that can be found up north.
7:10 Yes actually, perhaps not for Garlemald's benefit, but rather because they wouldn't want another dictator on that empty throne. They may hate Garlemald, but I would think they would equally hate the potential for a Garlemald 2.0 headed by someone with clear aspirations for conquering. And even though most hate Garlemald, it is far better having a rehabilitated, more democratic Garlemald that has strong, positive ties to an arm of the alliance (the contingent), rather than a new one headed by a similarly bloodthirsty leader.
Alternatively, they do have a resource: A lot of people that know how to make usable war machines and weapons based on Ceruleum, a resource that is in abundance in The New World. This could be an Operation Paperclip.
Why would anyone do this? Garlemald is a frozen hell scape. The only thing they have is the Ceruleum and maybe the tech.
My guess, the conquering 'hero' wants the moon. Personally speaking, if it wouldn't directly negate the twins' hard work I'd leave it to whoever.
'what about Jullus?' ...what about Jullus? He can leave at any point and I'm lukewarm to the man at best. Sympathetic story, but he was perfectly willing to activate the collars on Quinus' orders.
On the forgive and forget question... Yeah no. Solus might have laid the gunpowder, but the Garleans lit the fuse.
I didn't take that part of the MSQ as "they plan to invade Garlemald", but as "the most fearsome enemy has fallen, so let's take advantage to conquer the other nations and prove our strenght".
But even if it came as an invasion to Garlemald itself, it wouldn't be as simple to just head straight there and place a little flag on the tower. They'd need to conquer all the surrounding area, and even some other nations on their way there, to gather provisions and endure the cold. It wouldn't mean just war to Garlemald, but to various other nations as well.
I don't think Dawntrail is gonna linger on the Garleans much. It's just a convenient way to get the players to the new maps. I think we'll see most of their struggles glossed over in the MSQ while giving a few side quests to flesh out that issue
It looked like it was being set up for them to come back to. Alphinaud and a Scion staying in place indicated that there would be a return.
That said, I would suggest looking at the record of the post world war countries. Germany had a process of Reconciliation, which would be a plotline we would probably have to deal with assisting in.
But Square Enix is literally headquartered in one of the nations that participated in WWII. They also had reconciliation and an intense cultural swords-to-plows beat that has been noted and remarked on, part of which appears as the Japanese media trope of killing gods. They had a divine god-emperor then, and afterwards they made a big show of distancing themselves from that past. Further, America seemed to be tolerated after mowing through the constituent nations that it decided to eradicate. In a geopolitical arena, nations care a lot less about revenge than you think.
honestly im very interested to see if the recent resurgence in conflict between israel and palestine is going to affect how they handle garlemald in the coming expansion
Your discussion today Sir was really thought provoking and I cannot deny it Sir. I cannot deny that before we got Endwalker I was all for invading Garlamald and taking the fight to them for every they have done from ARR to SHB. I wanted to make them pay for everything they have done sure. I guess I can see why people of the world of Etheiryis wouldn't bat an eye if someone brought " retribution" for the tragedy they have caused
Of course they're still in danger, the devs haven't given us Garlemald Restoration yet.
@@octo9063 At what point did Thavnair stop being a part of Ilsabard and become a part of Eorzea?
I think it’s a logistic issue with invading Garlemald. I don’t think the Mamool Ja, even with an army of mixed races, can survive the environment of Garlemald. Even with proper clothing to keep them warm.
If we look at world wars in our realm, we can compare how people feel about Garlemald to how they felt about the losers of those conflicts. The victors write the history, so ultimately Garlemald will always be seen as evil, but not everyone will have felt that way. Garlean citizens felt like their conquering was very just and their heroes were very brave. Certainly some will take pity on them but for several generations I imagine Garleans will have to contend with their dark pasts.
We must defend the rebuilding garlemald from these fiends!
2:55 Oh I NEVER forgot what Emet-Selch did. Thats why I'm not one of his legions of fangirls. Anything Garlemald did is his fault.
The Waking Sands being shot up. Ilberd and everything HE did to us. Papalymo. All of Bozja. Fordola. Varis blowing up Ysayle.
I have been thinking about this a lot., so here are my long thoughts:
I wouldn't say its a writing mistake, but I feel like we've been lacking reactions from people who do not know as much as the Scions know about the Ascian involvement, and even so, people who would still make them responsible for all those years of war. As you say, its not going to be a "forgive and forget" for most people. Still, I do not think people will cheer for people who invade and masacre a state that is known to have fallen nowadays, but they probably wouldn't care enough to fight for that country, I think.
Since my WoL/OC story highly involves this topic, being a Dalmascan and all, I've been thinking about this a lot, trying to figure out HOW and IF he would be able to forgive them as a nation, after all this years of hate against them. By extension, im asking the same question thinking about people who have suffered and hated so much because of the Garlean Empire.
I feel like the MSQ is HIGHLY downplaying the situation, but I also know they would need a LOT of time put into the MSQ to resolve this, and they wanna move away from it and start a new story (kinda) in the new world. So im in this position where I think "Okay, I guess people don't doubt the scion's words, and they are willing to forgive and forget extremely easy" as a shortcut to properly deal with all the social an political consequences of all of this on the MSQ, a topic that prolly a lot of players wouldn't enjoy.
It's probably not going to be brought up again, but I definitely didn't like how brushed off the whole situation was. Especially since we have no way to gauge if what the twins did was well recieved.
I don't see them going after Garlemald first, probably either Sharlyan or Limsa Lominsa. Garlemald is weak sure, but other than Ceruleum what does it offer? Sharlyan is historically neutral and they might assume that makes them an easy target (depending on how much they know about the moon bunnies sharing tech with them), and that gives them a staging ground to get to Eorzea. Alternatively they might sail right past Sharlyan (relying on that neutrality) and go for La Noscea to smash the biggest naval power that would otherwise harass them, and have that island as good harbor and staging ground. Hingan and Thavnir might sounds like good options, but the extra travel distance is likely to hamper them unless they want to set sail to their West. And I don't know anything about what is to their West that might get in their way before getting to Thavnir or Hingen.
Basically: Think of anything and everything that happened to Germany or Japan afrer WW2, and it's probably going to happen to Garlemald.
-War crimes trials
-Former conscripts becoming second-class citizens in their own homelands
-Collaborators getting kidnapped and interrogated or even straight up jumped or iced in the streets
Based on the info we have on Ilsabard at this point, what would be the reason to invade a frozen wasteland? There are a lot of more efficient ways to farm ceruleum.
who said he is aiming for garlemald, he could be going after the whole central continent since we recently stopped a war and america ...ehem i mean tural had 60 years of peace
Just look at American Slavery and the tension that this country still faces quite often because of it. I think it’s reasonable for the world to hate Garlemald right now. Hell I still hate Ul’dah to an extent from that bs that we got hit with back in 2.55 (man i miss that time). So yeah, tbh I would also possibly conveniently oversleep the day they get invaded if i could….but the WoL wouldnt do that….i guess…..
I wonder, do they even have the resources to even attempt shuch a feet? Garlimald isn't exactly a hop skip and a jump away. Just getting there might be more of an obstacle than the Garlians themselves. They have very rugged terrain to traverse in order to get there. Also, how would a people accustomed to a warm and humid climate fair in a frigid dry one? They could lose half their forces to the cold if they are not properly prepared. So it won't be as easy, then they thought it would. Its not the Garlians or even the Isabard contingent they need to worry about but the very land itself.
Yes. It IS in grave danger.
And I say we should BE the danger, not Tural. Let there be no reconciliation with the invaders of Cartenau!
Applicable to real life to tbh
Frankly, most people won't care for Ascian involvement - for most people there is a reason Ascians chose Garlemald instead of Ulthard or Gridania, making them think Garlean mentality is that of conquest and fearing what will happen once they rebuild and a generation or two pass and get their own ambitions.
I don't think Garlemald is going to be easily forgiven at all. I don't think we will deal with it in a large for at least an expansion, since 7.0 is supposed to be our 'vacation'. Some of the Garlean commanders were vile people, the one in the Weapons Trials whose name escapes me atm being a prime example. People can say all day how the Garlean people were being manipulated.. But the act so many of them did in a position of power, from the lowest soldiers to the highest commanders was cruel beyond measure.
Honestly garlemald was a very very interesting experience idiotically wise (especially since I'm German and always had a very detached view to history since i simply couldn't (and luckily still can't) understand how people valued other people so lowly.
Honestly, i can't blame the other nations and people to forsake them, in my eyes even those 10 percent or even less are kinda too much, their kin slaughtered, ravaged, plundered, enslaved and probably even ra*** every non garlean with very few exceptions.
They willingly pushed back and even attacked those that tried to help them and then when they barely got a leg on even dared to try and call claims. I just say "oh but it's our royal castle mimimi, well then pay the repairs for damage and lost life those towers created in every other country, or compensate for every other damage you caused, oh you don't know what i mean? Time to drag you to bozia. Oh and right.... just forget how you'd by now have freezed to death without us. But sure, glory to the rotting cold starved garlean Empire."
In some cutscenes i really just wished that instead of following a and a's humanitarian fun adventure we'd just instead went in there and cleared the snow fields from that living rubble.
Think about it, was there a single Time in garlemald where we didn't need to teach people their place? Oh right, there wasn't.
How many of the common people even know about the Ascians? Much less know Solus zos Galvus was possessed by Emet-Selch? Not many I expect; it would probably be dangerous for that information to become widespread. Without that information, there is no mitigating circumstance in the minds of those people. And I don't think knowing that truth would help the Garleans long term, it would just further entrench their distrust for outsiders and magic further.
huh i didn't take it that the guy was planning to invade Garlemald specifically but rather invade the east in general since the Garlean Army no longer had the majority of it under thumb.
this also means if we help them in the long term,we get more housing.
I’m speculating a bit but if the warmonger candidate is wanting to invade garlemald, wouldn’t they also want to continue from there and try to invade the other countries as well? I mean I’m not sure how the other city states are doing right now but I think the final days have drained resources from them so maybe the warmonger candidate wants to invade garlemald to set up like a staging ground to invade the other city states?
I personally doubt that this will ever be addressed, because momentary dark moments are fine in a final fantasy series, but dealing with the actual real world repurcussions is too much thematic shift for the series. It would be too outside of Final Fantasy to really and seriously address this, and it would undermine the "Power of Friendship" message that saturates the series.
I think 14 plays its political storylines straight enough that the conquerer doesn't need a particular reason to conquer Garlemald. Garlemald has ceruleum. It's incredibly weak and has no allies. It can be conquered so Tural might attempt to conquer it.
Weren't the Garleans chased out and persecuted everywhere before becoming an Empire? It's quite realistic for most nations not to remember that but only the more recent decades
The difficulty with Garlemald is it vvery deep inside the continent. As much as its neighbors wouldn't mind the former empire getting a taste of its own medicine, none would agree to let a foreign army pass through their own country to get there... It remains to be seen what war capacities they have in the New World, some of the settings we were shown look quite high-tech, maybe they will be the Americans to the Russian Garlemald. But on the other hand, both Allag and Garlemald technology are linked to the Ascians, if I'm not mistaken, would they have armed another kingdom on the other side of the sea? Or is there some other actor implied there which we are yet to be introduced?
Also, many a country fear the collapse of a neighbor, foreseeing waves and waves of refugees coming their way (China and South Korea with the North Korea zombie state, for a modern example). They want them miserable, but not miserable enough to flee their snow holes.
As for all countries just getting along as if nothing happened... it's always hard to tell when the script writer is Japanese. It's pretty much how it went for them after WWII. They have invaded neighboring countries, their administration have been brutal... and they pretty much have been let go without much problems because the Americans said so... As long as the other countries work to integrate Garlemald without too much of a fuse, it could go rather smoothly, even if the general population ressent their former tyrants. As long as they stay in their snow holes, like Japanese didn't try to rule anything outside their islands, it could somehow work.
I thought some more about it... At the end of WWII, the victors demanded Japanese to give their emperor's head. The Japanese counter offer that the emperor lose his god title and that the higher up in the army would give their live in his stead. For Garlemald, the emperor's line is now dead and one of the general even gave his life. They will probably be good, even if it takes a few generations for relationship to normalize.
Heck, Germany still has some social backlash 70 years after the wars and it was only for 4 years, twice. Imagine 60 years of it.
I really wanted a firmament/doman enclave-esque garlemald restoration and instead we got cosmic exploration..
I'm disappointed but I also understand why it hasn't happened.. yet.
Think another major issue is Garlemald crumbling under the weight of its own taught racism and superiority complex too. You can't immediately accept unity when you have been trained for generations to despise and be xenophobic towards other nations, even if they are helping you. They're gonna have to overcome their own biases as well as their socio-economic struggles
Garlemald is still literally clouded. No map.
I will say that one thing I've always been uncomfortable with in FFXIV is how they've treated Garlemald.
Sure. It's the Ascians who did it, but the Ascians were not the ones who ran the empire. It was thousands upon thousands of individuals who chose to perpetuate the horrific expansion of the empire and maintained and developed the system. And I can only truly think of one time in the story where the people who were in charge weren't treated as victims deserving of sympathy, and it was not in the MSQ. I can think of 'many' 'many' times where their victims were treated as being shortsighted or wrong headed for disliking these characters. But every one of them have been side characters. I think we could really use a character who doesn't forgive the Garlean people for what they did, and thinks they deserve what they got. If only so that there can be some form of nuance on the story. In the list below I'm not going to list traitors like Cid, or Maxima. They showed the nuance of the situation plenty well. These were all loyalist characters until they were beaten.
- Fordola, while she was raised in this system, chose to slaughter, beat, maim, and torture countless innocent people with the blades. But she winds up forgiven by the story, even though she's tormented by her visions, her victims are constantly told that they are wrong for their mistrust and hatred, and that they should feel bad due to her circumstances in nearly every appearance.
- Gaius conquered entire nations, and he's the only one who's had real comeuppance for what he did. But it's not in the form of recognition for his crimes by the nations, instead they maintain him in said position, with the torment of his children.
- Varis is treated with pity despite the fact he was a murderous tyrant for his entire life.
- Noah is treated as a 'noble opponent'.
- Yotsuyu is never forgiven, but even she's given depth through her redemption arc.
- Emet Selch. Nuff said. Even the players forgive everything he's done.
- Zenos... Nuff said. See above.
'The one' and only time that a Garlean has been treated with complete and total disdain for their actions by the main cast is the villain in Werlyt. But he's a psychopathic monster and so one note I can't recall his name.
You're not entirely wrong. The characters and MSQ of Endwalker were very quick to suddenly be in the, "Garlemald is a country of victims!" mentality. However I think a lot of that might have to do with the fact that Garlemald was supposed to get its own expansion and got smooshed into Endwalker.
@@SynodicScribe I don't really even think it's a problem with Endwalker. This has been the consistent throughline of writing for Garlemald since Nero, and in particular I've always been extremely uncomfortable with how Fordola was treated in no small part because I've researched the history of collaborators in those types of regimes, and while FFXIV has chosen to write the character as redeemable. They have not shown the same courtesy to their victims.
@@fredy2041Every German? No but Himler, Rommel, and the officers who commanded their soldiers were. Just to make it clear we’re talking the commanding officers who chose how to engage and enact the system.
This feels pretty uncharitable to FFXIV. Fordola is disliked by a *lot* of people in-universe, and I don’t remember anyone being portrayed as in the wrong for not really forgiving her (in fact, she’s still basically a captive even after her EW role quest). Gaius was a voice of reason among the Garlean legatii, and he still had to do a *lot* to earn the trust of someone he had with him for a *while.* Varis is treated with pity specifically in the context of becoming Anima, and he’s justifiably treated as a monster the rest of the time. Noah, I can’t say much on, admittedly. Yotsuyu is pretty much only given a second chance due to losing her memory, and things play out the way they do because she considered *herself* beyond redemption. Emet Selch… Yeah, I’ll give you that one. Zenos is hated in-universe by *literally everyone* except the WoL, and even then, the WoL thing depends on the player. Yeah, a lot of them are portrayed as redeemable, but I don’t think the game ever calls anyone out for not forgiving them unless they do something *really* stupid because of it.
@@AzureGreatheart Oh sure, and I don't disagree here. The fundamental issue I take is that those people are treated as being wrong, or misguided for their distrust. In Fordola's role quest, characters lecture the mother of a child she saved for being fearful of Fordola. They call Ala'mhigans who are uncomfortable with the idea of the remembrance happening for both the skulls, and Ala'mhigans who lost their lives to the Garleans misguided, and there are dozens of examples of it.
Yotsuyu and Gaius I'm willing to give ground on here as it's the only time I can think of where the story is done 'well'. However in Yotsuyu's case, she's not punished for her crimes but treated as a victim of circumstance. And in Gaius's case, he's punished by the world, but proven right in regards to his ideology, he just fought for the wrong cause.
Even with Zenos they wanted to imprison him rather than kill him despite all he had done, now that could be Lyse. Thinking back on it, he's actually handled the best out of all of them in this regard. So I'll give it to ya. I think it's odd with him because he's not really a massive figure in Garlemald. Jullus actually gets a perfect moment that I would want for a character in this situation. He doesn't kill his enemy, but he still refuses the world view, he still castigates everything they did as wrong, and he's not treated as being wrong for thinking that way. Thinking on it more, the fundamental problem I take is that at this point the character isn't a Garlean figure. Zenos is just... Zenos.
I suppose my issue is just fundamentally that they don't give time to the victims of Garlean rule in comparison to the officers themselves. There are two exceptions I can think of, but even they are characters who's story role is to say "I don't like who they are, but they're still alive and have a role to play." (Those being the village leader Fordola saves, and the sniper dude who chills with Gaius.)
Rather than someone who lost family to them, lost loved ones, and wants this character who we as fan's like gone, and punished... And isn't treated as being wrong headed or ignorant for it in the story. While also not ending the arc on a 'well I guess they deserve to stay around' type of note. It didn't become an issue until I did the EW role quest, and Rauhbhan took off Fordola's collar and is no longer restricting her to a cell.
Part of me feels bad for the Garleans but at the same time. You can't just conquer the World and think people are gonna like or even want to help you.
hooboy. This is rather interesting. I dislike vengeance. It's ugly and scary, even when justified. Though perhaps people need to see it through others to realize how scary it is. I could see FFXIV going deep with this theme.
Course it is. My character in rps is still mad at them! Waiting for an excuse to Fell Cleave them. She knows Emet caused the empire but she doesn't see that as an excuse just the why. Looking forward to Dawntrail as an excuse for my group to split and fight. Don't take that as me that's just my main. My alt he is Bozjan and happily aiding the Republic. Most can't understand the Ascian so no shocked we haven't already seen riots.
the trailers only show the first 3 areas...just sayin, anything can still happen
Also didn’t the emperor publicly declare that the purpose of garlamald was the Ascian cause?
That doesn’t look good…
No he didn't declare Ascian involvement publicly. Knowledge of the Ascians wasn't common knowledge to the average citizen.
@@SynodicScribe I guess a room full of alliance leaders could be kept under wraps. I guess I equated that as public knowledge.
If anyone else here played World of Warcraft first, I feel like a good comparison would be to the fall of Quel’thalas. In both cases, a fraction of the population *survived* the fall, and the monsters that caused it are likely going to be a pain to completely get rid of. The big difference is that the most obvious leaders to get things back together also died here, and also almost everyone hates Garlemald. This isn’t something you rebuild from; the old Garlemald is effectively dead, and what comes next will be something new.
If you don't understand Garlemald's position than you haven't been paying attention to Realm Reborn and Stormblood, the most content filled expansions in FF14 that all center on the threat of Garlemald.
You keep saying "you'd be surprised" and "Not as many people helped the contingent that you'd assume" and doing weird numbers things with Lyse to explain Garlemald's perception and I really think you're missing the meat.
Describing Garlemald's sins as just a "bloody war" is selling it short. The fact you went this entire video without using the words oppression, colonization and facisim is shocking to me.
Long story short, for all intents and purposes Etheriyis has to decide whether Garlemald deserves a right to exist. They've wiped out country's and cultures themselves, why should theirs be redeemed? If someone doesn't want to support Garlemald and would rather it not exist it's a fair perspective at worst and can be argued morally correct at best.