I think one of the problems is that circuits cant afford to be Grade 1. Look at Spa/Silverstone always about to go bankrupt. Street circuits only need to exist for the race.
Dont know about Spa, but Silverstone has always been like this because its the only circuit on the calendar that doesn’t receive any government funding, hence the higher average ticket price
"About to go bankrupt". If spa and silvertone can't be mantained, what else can? I don't buy it. I am not aware of the financial situation of these circuits, but interlagos is absurdly profitable and since it's inception >certain peoplecertain people< just want to buy premium estate for peanuts and sit on the amazing golden goose that are such a race track as these. But that's really not the main point of the video. Oh well
A circuit being "grade 1" is necessary for Formula 1, you can't risk having a fatality anymore. Especially if it's something easily preventable like Jules (not through the Halo, but better SC procedures). I also feel they need to be more strict with tracks like Jeddah and Portimao.
@@cbj4sc1 Jules Bianchi was killed at a grade 1 circuit because of the FIA race director - no fault of the circuit or safety car procedure. Charlie Whiting is the reason why Jules Bianchi is no longer with us.
The fan engagement aspect... there was never a problem in filling up stands in regular circuits as long as they are not located in the middle of nowhere. I don't like this current trend when we have tracks like Sepang, Hockenheim, Istambul Park or Portimão outside the calendar. Monaco and Baku, together with the Australia and Canada hybrids satiate my need for street circuits.
Good thought out comment Soundscape. I just wonder when everything, including F1, now revolves around extreme comfort and what can be done outside of the racing. I'd note the fun people had at Watkins Glen but we really don't want nonstop debauchery and destruction. Sure have maybe two street circuits but don't sacrifice the sport to them. Noting your thought on "Located in the middle of nowhere"; I come from a motocross and professional motocross background from the mid-70s to late 80's. All of the tracks then were in the middle of nowhere and part of the fun of the sport was often just finding the tracks. You camped out, if you were a spectator you walked around the track to view as much of it as possible, and if you were racing you competed on a true natural terrain track. Now all of the tracks that hold Nationals are near the airports, have stands, and are often built on some random flat piece of ground with huge built up jumps and are as inspiring as watching paint dry.
I'd give my left one for another race at Sepang. I'd give the right one for Kyalami. I'd give the middle one to ditch Saudi or Miami or (whisper it) Monaco.
@@pursang6792 The "middle of nowhere" argument was used most noticeably in two situations... Magny-Cours and South Korea. In the first case it didn't hold that much weight because the circuit also had good attendances as far as I can remember. That said, it was not a better track than Paul Ricard, don't let nostalgia trick you. Nobody liked Magny-Cours that much back in the day. In Korea's case yes... the relative novelty of F1 among Koreans but most especially the track being located quite far away from population centers killed it.
If a street circuit is a proper challenge and differs from other tracks on the calendar, then bring them on, I say. Singapore is nice with it being about the only race to run the 2 hour limit (though with the changes this year, it'll be much faster), Valencia and Miami are examples of bad street tracks.
I do like the physical aspect of Singapore despite it not being the most favourite track of mine the longest race of the year and the race in the worst conditions in terms of temperature and humidity
I generally don't like street tracks but a few work.
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Valencia wasn't that bad (tho I mostly remember the 2012 race so my view may be bit distorted), Miami is ok (lot better racing than Monaco), wonder what the Las Vegas would be. Generally purpose build circuits are lot better than "street" ones.
If you're going to make a street track, make sure to use as much of the normal streets as possible. The problem with this is that a lot of streets are planned, so they have 90 degree corners way too often. I'd love to see F1 cars tackle Kenilworths roads, that huge elevation change around Abbey Fields would be amazing. The streets mingle with the natural landscape, not the other way around.
I remember loving street circuits when I was a kid because of how different they were. Adelaide will always be the favourite. I remember staying up to watch the last one there. Damon winning by two laps (get in!) Panis bringing a self destructing Mugen engine home, Morbidelli on the podium, Lamy getting a point for Minardi, Forti and Pacific JUST missing out, the pitlane entrance shenanigans, Frentzen going full road rage trying to lap Blundell, Murray having to reign in Alan Jones on commentary, Taki Inoue... They were the best of times, they were the blurst of times.
It’s funny because back in the 90s and early 00s, we used to say it was a shame that Monaco was the only “pure” street circuit, whilst CART was producing good racing on them in America. To be honest I don’t care. Some street tracks are good, some aren’t. I don’t think you can just compare them all, the same way that you can’t say all road courses are the same. In my opinion, Baku is good, Jeddah is good, Miami is average… So I don’t think there’s too many, it just depends on the quality on them. If the next new venue is a street circuit then I won’t judge it until I’ve seen it.
One thing that a lot of these street circuits have in common is that a major international airport is nearby. Melbourne, Montreal, Singapore, Vegas and Miami are a few examples. Silverstone is a good couple of hours from Heathrow, Spa is on the other side of the country from Brussels, Monza is quite a way out from Milan. The idea with the street circuits is that one can fly in, see the race and fly out again, which is ideal for the celebrity/jetsetter types who are in and out of somewhere in the blink of an eye.
Wait WHAT. They had Motofest there a few weeks back, also using the ring road, so if they did, it would probably look like that. Them coming out of the tunnels would be amazing. Though they put a number of chicanes to slow the cars and I think they overdid it. They'd have to use a lot more of the ring road.
Some street circuits are surprisingly good, like Baku which has become an instant classic. While others are just so dull they really shouldn't be there like Miami. I'd have no problem with having all these circuits if the classic circuits that generate quality racing weren't being shoved aside for them. I think F1 could introduce a rotation, where there 10 or so excellenet tracks that are on the calendar every year, Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Silverstone, Monaco, Bahrain, Baku, Montreal, Interlagos and Hockenheim, I haven't given that list a huge amount of thought so don't shoot me. Then the remainder of tracks rotate in and out, maybe every second year, maybe twice every 3 years, whatever works best. This could also allow space to give some circuits a once off run, the likes of Fuji, Buenos Aires, Le Mans, try some new stuff, where because it's a once off it should generate greater buzz for the single running.
When there was just Monaco and Singapore it was fine. Albert Park and Montreal are interesting cases because they also have grass and gravel in addition to their street layout But I think after that, that should be it because of all the things you mentioned. We shouldn't price out genuine purpose built tracks for another 'street' circuit, even for ones like Miami and Jeddah that strain the definition of a 'street race' Although it would be nice to have a Las Vegas GP that is actually IN Las Vegas. The two in the eighties and the new round this year have all been in Paradise not LV
The Las Vegas and Cesars Palace GPs have gotta be the closest to venues that aren't actually the same venue (i.e. Excluding the Nürbirgring GP Strecke and Nordschliefe because they use the same start finish straight). Any idea what would be 2nd closest?
I'm glad you're still making these kinds of videos as well. Yeah they might get less clicks than your story time videos but I still like listening to your opinions like a podcast in the background. Much appreciated content mate :)
Both series tend to swap ends. Sometimes these will do well and the history stuff drops off and sometimes the history stuff does well and this does average for the analytics. They also break things up a bit. I’ve got other stuff I want to do too.
I for one hate it. Places like Road America or Mid Ohio would be far better locations for racing than Miami or Vegas. Of course you can't get some celebrity who has no clue about the sport to come to wisconsin to be on the grid
You want a circuit close to the fans, but not too close? IMS is a 15 minute drive from downtown Indy and I n my opinion has a really fun roval layout. Other places like Barber and Sonoma would be pretty badass too
Yes, but you have the PTSD from 2004. It'd be neat to see F1 back at Indy, especially now with the Snake Pit section, but I don't know if we'd all be...willing to make amends just yet.
I like Street Circuits that have legitimate history to it. My example would be Long Beach and Toronto, 2 tracks Indycar races on that feels natural and not just profit-driven moves to big markets.
If there's one "street" race I want to see, it would be one on Tempelhof airfield. But not like the Formula E layout. Use one of the former runways. The one closer to the terminal is less than 2km from one taxiway to the other, so it wouldn't breach the circuit regulation of being too long. The terminal, where the entire current Formula E track is, could be the place for the pit complex and maybe a chicane or something more interesting. Depending on what exactly that last part looks like, the track would be about 4.5km long, which is pretty decent. Maybe the circuit could turn out pretty dull, but the thought of seeing F1 cars running down an airport runway is pretty cool. Also, neither Nürburgring nor Hockenheimring are hosting an F1 race any time soon, so this would bring a German race back to the calendar, which would be pretty nice.
I could see it looking like CART's Cleveland circuit...both in being very wide into very narrow corners, inviting divebombs...and also being b o m p y.
I think what plays a big part in this is where-is-the-big-money factor. Now we have an overabundance of mostly soulless urban tracks, but not too long ago we had an invasion of Tilkodromes in places where people didn't care much for motorsports in general. I'd say things have not changed much in the sense that several new tracks come, few remain as good circuits.
I loved Detroit in the 1980s. Great cars, drivers who spoke their mind, and corners on the track where you were literally 1.5 - 2.0 meters from the cars.
I like street circuits that have character. They don't necessarily need to provide good racing. But they need to be more than just 90 degree corners with the odd hairpin. And be in area that has some good scenery. One or the other is ok.
I'd say there's a case that street circuits are better than having another billion-dollar Tilke-drome rotting somewhere in the wilderness (obligatory mention: Istanbul, Buddh, Yeongam). But I will also opine that management staring at a world map, plonking down races wherever they see a major city, without regard for whether that city has any actual fans (or any regard for their fans at all, for that matter, or for the legacy venues that provide more than just ticket sales), desperately trying to gin up engagement that may or may not actually last... we've heard this story from the Americans before, right?
I feel like the issue is mainly caused by "street" circuits. Normal circuits but they put them in an urban area and put walls next to it so it could more easily get an f1 viable safety grade and is cheaper to make.
NIMBY is an acronym for Not In My Back Yard - the sort of people who kick off when anything new and/or a minor inconvenience is mooted in their community.
It’s a double edged sword for me, As a long time race fan I was ecstatic about the Vegas race (I’m a local) however I quickly realized I can’t actually afford to go and be able to watch it. (I am the electrical project manager over the paddock build out so at least I got that going) my wife is also a big fan and she like me will just watch our new home GP from the couch. My favorite circuits are Spa, Imola, silverstone, and Montreal. So the idea of any of those going away for a Vegas GP saddens me. However the new found love for the sport and the amount of money people are throwing at it only strengthens the sport, and after 2008, along with the 2014 regs, it felt like the sport was on life support. Just my thoughts.
Too much downforce again should just allow F1 to reduce wing aero further, which should in turn improve racing. Doesn't fix any of the other issues of course.
Street circuits with some degree of run off (Albert Park, Belle Isle) have some appeal but I am sick of the pace car events on walled off street circuits (Detroit, St. Petersburg). It's been a blight on the otherwise excellent Indy Car seasons and will produce the same confusing instances of endless pace car laps the further F1 gets into it.
As a semi casual F1 fan, tracks can have good racing, good visuals, or preferably both. When you've got street tracks at night like Jeddha or the car park monstrosity that is Miami, you get neither. There's something special seeing F1 cars with lovely historic architecture like Baku or Monaco, but when you don't have that you're far better off having the race at a proper circuit. Also, as an American I know F1 is massively attempting to cater to me, but all races like Miami or Vegas do is fill me with disgust, it's far cheaper for me to go to the canadian grand prix, and I'd have better racing and a more hospitable climate to boot, while also not putting myself in debt.
One theory is that if a purpose built track finds F1 too expensive they can have Moto GP as their headline instead but that's not an option for a street track.
Nice video, i like street trac ks but i do think there is a limit and i do think that limit is where we are at, that said i don't mind new ones if they are a challenge and create good racing. Perhaps the ideal soloution is for street circuiits to do a share type of thing, like Hocenhime and the Nurbegring
F1 is too saturated and obsessed with money, commercialism and status leaving many traditional fans, including myself, have long since switched off. And yes, it was better back in the old days no matter what stats you throw at me. And I'm going back to Monaco 1982 cheering on Derek Daly because we had fuck all else to cheer about.
The only benefit to street circuits, I guess, is they make the drivers stay within track limits or suffer the consequences. Those consequences can be race ending and it's interesting to see which drivers can adapt to a track with no grace area to exploit.
There's an angle you haven't mentioned. Street circuits are designed for TV rather than for spectators on the ground. Many of the established circuits have places where you can physically see a number of corners, so will be far more interesting to watch directly. (At Brands you can see about half the circuit from many locations, at least for the club circuit). F1 wants us to watch these races on pay TV because they get a greater direct rake off that way. They aren't that interested in bums on seats, that's the circuit's problem. F1 cars need a circuit where they can really stretch their legs, stop-go 90 degree corners may be all right for the overgrown Scalextric that is Formula E, indeed they are vital for regen purposes, but not for F1. Can the street circuits and get back to proper tracks.
The thing that baffles me is that whining about Monaco is considered a given, yet the schedule is overrun with street circuits, all of which suffer from the same problems because (a) they are street circuits and (b) the cars are enormous. In a perfect would I would keep Monaco for nostalgia's sake and ditch all the rest. Problem solved. Edit: I should mention here, also, that I am all for sporting venues of all kinds being easily accessible to major cities. Walking from a pregame hangout right to the game is a true joy, and if that was practically achievable with racing I'd be thrilled. It's just that street circuits tend to be objectively disappointing, especially for modern F1.
Street circuits have there place, and so do permanent circuits. F1 can do both, but the right ratio has to be achieved. If Miami and Vagas make the money so the permanent tracks can stay then fine. If they just line the high ups pockets and not help F1 or the areas it goes to then drop them.
If F1 street circuits gave races as awesome as the Detroit race in IndyCar was this year then I'd be fine with half the season being street tracks. But apart from Baku, which usually delivers, F1 cars don't really go with street tracks anymore. Formula E at Monaco is amazing. Three wide in the hairpin and overtakes in places an F1 car would find impossible. If they insist on new street tracks, they either need to come up with aero regs specifically for those track designs, or design the tracks so the current regs work on them. Designing the two independently and you'll get a season full of Monaco processions. Pretty cars in pretty locations with a packed stand of very bored spectators.
The biggest problem with street tracks is that you only have so much leeway with how to design them since the existing infrastructure of the city itself cannot be changed short of F1 buying out the properties in the relevant area and demolishing them to redevelop their plots as part of the circuit.
My first thought is that I don’t really separate races by street vs track as far as good racing is concerned (whatever that is). If I had to rate tracks I suspect I’d end up with a mix of types from top to bottom. But that’s from a tv viewer’s perspective.
I know I sound like an old man shouting at the wind, but I’m sick to death of street tracks, I’m sick to death of this whole DTS generation. We don’t need 30 races in a season, 20 races on good circuits are more than enough.
I think the street circuits are just F1 trying to gain appeal in the U.S. and other new markets, but with less commitment and money being wasted. Street circuits exist only for the race, and are cheaper than building purpose built tracks in a market thats still only luke warm to the sport. Thats a gamble.
I agree there are too many “street” circuits around these days, I say “street” because I’m of the opinion that Jeddah isn’t a real street circuit, as it was (poorly imho) designed with racing in mind on free/cleared land and not based on pre existing streets (with maybe a tiny addon here and there) converted to race on. Sure it’s used as public road now when there’s no racing going on, but that’s not the point. If a track isn’t based on pre existing streets and with a “make the best of what’s available” attitude, it’s not a real street circuit. Miami imho falls in the same category as the Melbourne and Canada tracks, more a “hybrid” style of street track as Miami uses some pre existing roads for the track, but most of it is a purpose build layout on a huge parkinglot. Just my 2ct. :)
Don't need more street tracks..... As an old F1 fan I am beginning to struggle with what has been my favourite sport, I know what they say it is...but i'll call a naff-ness to what i'm watching
Sick of street circuits. We compromise the essence of the sport for ease of access, wider fan engagement.. For a true fan, travelling 1hr to the track is well worth the trouble for genuine racing.
In some ways, one could say that it's a kind of return to its roots of being in the heart of the city and closer to "fan engagement" that they nauseatingly want to put it. I love Monaco and wouldn't want to see it go away (as practically anyone has probably gathered from my comments in the past) but I would agree wholeheartedly that they're overegging this obsession with street circuits because it's venture capitalism at its worst - it costs next to nothing for the likes of Liberty but there's maximum gains to be had and the most pleasing aspect for them is they get it all their own way in accordance with the teams which is why there's always the beef they've had with Monaco (baulking at the exceptional status that it has) and Spa - they feel the Ardennes forests are "the middle of nowhere" and the fact that tickets to the Belgian GP along with Monza are some of the cheapest during the year (they must feel like they're losing money even when they're earning it). It just means that their great ideas ended up more often than not just feel like washouts. The obsessive tinkering with the rules aimed at trying to bring closer racing just rings hollow and artificial and I think sooner or later the people who have gotten into F1 due to Drive to Survive are sooner or later going to switch off from what's on show and the aggressive attitude taken against the purists among us is only going to alienate the product even more. On the subject of Formula E, I definitely think Formula E spooked F1 into returning to street circuits. Of course they were going about beforehand but it just seems that with the advent of Formula E just brought out a er...turbocharged "Oh yeah? Well we'll do twice as many street circuits than you" attitude.
My hot take: i would give F1 only 3 city courses ,changing every year voted by the fans at the end of the season. The rest of GPs on real racetracks ,furthermore make Formula E bigger and give them the city GPs only. The races would be even better ,cooperate with F1 more and do longer races. I think that could help both series (F1&FE) and it could kick off new developments ;) thanks for that interesting vid ,have a nice day valued Humanoids🐾
@@leghumper83 That track, Laguna Seca and Sonoma might be the only ones worth to replace COTA if It has problems, but It must be seen if they could get to grade 1. Also, COTA is the best track of the three in the US, while Vegas looks like a Champ Car street circuit under steroids. Miami is on the middle of the road personally.
While most of us complain, at the end of day on raceday we sit down and watch. We engage in social media in regards to the action and still consume their product, so F1 will continue down the path of more money.
I hate street circuit. I feel like it kinda kill the race. When the track is narrow, surrounded by wall and every single kerb is just waiting to send one of the big bulky car into one of them, it greatly reduce the overtake opportunity because the driver need to be extra cautious not to damage their car. One or two street circuit per season is ok, but I rather see more proper race track with interesting layout
U said it, all tarmacs are local recipe. I guess it's going to depend on gate admissions whether the race is s success - not whether the on track product is an abomination. Bernie told Silverstone - Build 2 Omni Hotels on site, that will fix everything... Except it will sit empty 80% of the year, your sanctioning fees are increasing or we'll go back to Brandd, but Bernie wouldn't get stuck in traffic after the race. I don't like it either.
Jeddah meant to be just a temporary solution while they build a proper motorsport center in Riyadh Qatar also was announced as a street track from 2023 onwards
Melbourne is still a hybrid imo. It's the Aussie way of building a street track in a park or at least partially, allows it to have better flow. I don't mind street tracks if there is no options in said country. Like Baku. America is a great example of a place that could have all 3 races at permanent. I can be happy if they remove monza or Imola because there are better tracks in Italy.... Mugello anyone
Honestly, i think that we have too many street circuits. Call me old fashioned but i like circuits surrounded by grass and gravel traps. Where the race doesnt have to be stopped for a knocked off front wing because the circuit has no space. Monaco was only special because it was the only hardcore street circuit. Its not just the racing either. I have a buddy who lives in Las Vegas and he is dreading the disruption to him thats gunna occur, the fact its gunna ruin his path to get into work and such, all for a race that will in all liklyhood be dull and boring. And theres so many good proper tracks out there that they could use.
It will be interesting to see if this goes on after 2026 when the engines are expected to make more noise again (though of course not as much as the naturally aspirated formulae) with the removal of the MGU-H.
Every series that does circuit racing has tried to make street circuits work, F1, Indycar, WEC, IMSA, now NASCAR with Chicago, and the major issue is that it depends on the local government, and we can use NASCARs Chicago Street Race as an example: this race has a contract that was signed under the Lori Lightfoot administration, so as long as Lori Lightfoot is mayor of Chicago then there's no issue, it's just that she lost her primary Edit: I actually saw that T-Mobile is actually running a deal for T-Mobile and Metro by T-Mobile customers in that you get 10% off a grandstand ticket, but I don't think it's actually a good deal because I'm a Metro by T-Mobile customer and Metro by T-Mobile is the "cheap option" and the Las Vegas race is just way too expensive
We go to street circuits because they are economical (Low cost and no annual maintenance). F1 is having trouble enforcing track limits on road coruses so barriers at edge mean you damage car if you drift to wide. And inner city's have hotels and facilities like restaurants that are around track, so you don't have to mouve that stuff in the middle of a small town like Silverstone.
(Apologies, it ended up longer than planned as I kept thinking of yet other problems re city circuits. TL:DR I don't like them - with reasons, and many pro-arguments can be rendered null & void.) IMHO, there's a bit of a myth regarding the cost of the track being less at a street circuit than a permanent track - at least this is how it seems to me. And I don't just mean financially, although I do think that is underestimated when it comes to temporary ones. A permanent circuit will have the best part of a year to make improvements or changes in general, without disrupting anything. They also have the ability to have long-term plans for how they want it to turn out and to enact those changes. Look at Silverstone only a relatively short time ago. They were able to build the new pit lane with the "wing" building on it (and as an aside, I really think they did a cracking job with that!) whilst continuing to use the old ones as and when required. Because of the known outcome, and the way they planned it, they were able to make the most of any opportunities that came their way to speed up, or otherwise aid the build. For example, when the price of steel plummeted, they were able to buy in all the required beams etc for the building and had the room to store it until required. Apparently it saved a bomb in comparison with the budgeted initial costs based on the original cost of the steel (IIRC it was a 6 figure saving). They were also able to bring forward some of the jobs and saved more money by having a shorter overall total build time - and the builders didn't get a fine for delays I believe. I can always be wrong, so feel free to correct me. (There is a point to this!) Outside of Monaco, where nobody expects decent facilities (though I do believe that they improved the pit lane some years back), new street circuits, which are expected to have the highest standards regarding the facilities, are in use for c.360 days of the year. (I have no idea at what exact point they need to start the conversion - it's possibly different from track to track, but you get my drift. It's most of the year.) Every _minute_ that they close roads, either _en masse_ or one at a time, for part of the day or completely until the circus rolls into town, they are going to be inconveniencing the locals, quite possibly making businesses shut for the preparation and the race weekend (thereby costing money in reparations, _if_ the organisers are anything like half-decent people). They will be creating more inconvenience on the lead up to the event due to the amount of work to repair any track damage that's happened over the year. This would be pointless to fix much earlier because it might well need further repairs - patching up roads is an ongoing problem, and certain potholes or whatever are just impossible to get rid of without completely relaying the whole road. And I do mean taking it down to the foundations to repair them, because that's often the ultimate cause. (Hubby was in Highways for his first "grown up" job. I just checked with him and he said that to do it properly, it is a "to the foundations" job. Overall, that's actually a cheaper option, but this isn't a full discussion about pothole fixing!) Outside of the road, there's all of the facilities, the grandstands, the timing tower and screens, the start line lights etc, the trackside protection, etc, etc, etc. These will take up storage space somewhere - or if brought by the FIA, there's the added cost for transport - and will only be used once a year. Imagine the cost of the safer barrier (the "bouncy castle barrier" I heard it called at Le Mans this year), which I presume will be eye-wateringly high (safety doesn't come cheap), yet it's used _once_ a year - or rather one event with the F1 race and a few other formats, depending on where and when the race is held. In other words, the actual cost of buying the equipment, paying off inconvenienced locals, paying the wages of the undoubtedly hundreds of people required to set up the track (and dismantle it - sometimes every day and night of the event if the roads don't stay permanently closed), and so on, is going to be a _LOT_ higher than we think. Given all of that, on top of the often lousy layouts, some with streets too narrow for overtaking outside of the pits, and a general dislike for them by the majority of fans (maybe it's just the majority of us who grew up with Monaco as being special because it was the "odd man out", and the cars were small enough to overtake in some places, but I have heard and read many complaints by younger, enthusiastic fans of the racing itself, and not just being a fanboi of a particular driver because of Netflix), I honestly don't see any real benefits to the street circuits. Have a proper circuit not far from a local town or city, run frequent shuttles to and from the track to the town (where the hotels will be bursting at the seams), and any "it's a great advertisement for X city" is rendered pointless as an argument as just about everyone will go there anyway! I know that's not always possible with some proper tracks, but you can't please everyone all the time. So, end of my essay (I knew it would be long, but... Oops!? Sorry!). Hopefully I've made some sense but I've been up since just after 4. 2 hours' sleep isn't enough to remain completely, er, on track 😉)
I think a part of it could be the evolution of the formula and how formidable it has become. As design and engineering perfection gets approached, entertaining racing gets more difficult. ( As opposed to, say, touring cars where a road-going family car can only be brought so close to racing perfection 🤏. That's more likely to have something or other exploitable by opponents on the track, and you get a more entertaining spectacle ). Racetracks existed happily for decades, then eventually we couldn't overtake on them anymore. So Hermann Tilke tried designing tracks around how the cars performed in the era. Unsurprisingly, they had similar features: A _this_ section into a _that_ section into a _this_ corner,... and the car behind should be able to.... So now its the tight streets' turn to have a try 🤷. ( Though the bigger car decision is a curious one for this ). I'm reminded of the _"bigger, stronger, faster"_ problem in team sports. The field, the court and the rink, however, remain the same size.
How about we get more of Liberty Media to raise money to fix more grade 2 tracks!? (Kyalami, Brands Hatch, etc) those would definitely work for F1 grand Prix's, if renovations can jump them up. But nope, we need either a street race, a middle Eastern race or another USA race. It needs to be changed around, like Africa still doesn't have a race for a "WDC" yet we get 3 races in America. That's just my take.
Singapore has been the only new street track I’ve really enjoyed, the rest haven’t done owt for me. Baku is rubbish if you take the last 3rd away. The best races of the last few years have been all on proper racetracks
No matter what, we should always give a new venue a chance. If it produces good racing, keep it! If the opposite happens, get that circuit off the calendar instantly!
I think Singapore and Baku are the best of the post 1996 street circuits we’ve had. The rest are just crap really. As for overtaking issues, just take the damn front wing off of the car, square off the rear wing and make it one element only, and have done with it. With ground effect there’s no need for the front wing. Oh and no power steering. Drive it like you’re trying to move a fully loaded washing machine.
Unless the FIA/F1 reigns in the performance potential of the cars, it's going to be more street circuits. Street Circuits are the easiest and cheapest way to conform to the FIA track grades, as opposed to remodeling an existing track or building a new track. And if F1 wants a new road course on the schedule they are going to have to be content with the race being outside the Metro area (which conflicts with the current marketing image).
As a NASCAR fan in addition to F1, NASCAR is going to find out first hand many of the issues that were mentioned in the video in a few weeks with the Chicago street race. In my view NASCAR should have stayed at Road America or gone to North Wikesboro for the 4th of July as both of those venues are better choices. Stock cars simply are not built for the streets & even the most experienced Cup Series driver will struggle to drive through the streets of Chicago. I don't why NASCAR decided to get into the business of having street races when their bread & butter is oval racing especially at superspeedways like Daytona & Talladega & short tracks like Bristol & Martinsville.
Too many street circuits. Keep Monaco, Singapore, Azerbaijan, and Australia. If a new proposed track can't measure up to the quality of Singapore, it has no business being in F1.
I just watched an AMA Superbike race at some place I never heard of called Ridge Motorsport Park. Lovely track. Elevation changes, scenery, challenging corners. But F1 cars are such divas that they need specific tracks built especially for them. And then a 300 million dollar catering building for the Saudi princes. F1 has its head so far up its ass that it can taste its own tonsils.
I like street races quite a bit, but I'm not willing to sacrifice great racetracks just for having more street circuits. Especially when that great race track is also a historic icon, or when the street circuit is just a poor design, due to the nature of it being a street circuit.
If they want fan engagement, then cheaper tickets and also stop making rules changes at the request of a single team. Oh and fix things so the cars can go nose to tail lap after lap.
Liberty media are killing the sport for racing fans, it's now just an endless procession of media hype trains. There's no real racers calling the shots anymore.
Indycar moved from a...sort-of street circuit to a full-on street circuit this year in Detroit, and of course there's still Crashville, Long Beach, Toronto, and St. Pete on the calendar. If they went from Mid-Ohio back to Cleveland I feel like they'd have nearly equal numbers of street and 'proper' circuits, if you discount they run the Indy road course twice. Ovals feel nearly gone outside of Indy and a couple of relatively obscure Midwestern intermediate tracks (which might be a good thing: see Pocono,) ...and Texas. c'mon, at least head back to Milwaukee, guys. Hell, NASCAR is racing in Chicago, downtown right next to the Field Museum. Chicago, a city which hasn't seen a street circuit race since...well, 1895, I think, in a race held for the Chicago Times-Herald. And NASCAR themselves hasn't seen a street circuit race since...uh...ever. at least I think.
im not the biggest fan of street circuits in formula 1 because i think they always devolve into parades i.e monaco. i think street circuits in indycar (st pete, long beach, toronto) produce better racing because there the actual racing surface is wide and the cars themselves are small, and theres more straights and relatively flowing curves. i think also drs ruins the long straights of, say, baku, because you cant defend against drs and its really powerful there. anyway, id rather see formula 1 go to more traditional tracks, if there was a way for road america for example to not change its character to be fia grade 1 id rather see formula 1 there than miami.
I think what could help is if the FIA let F1 race at grade 2 tracks. For permanent circuits to not have to be 100% grade 1 perfect could help drive more permanent circuits to want to be in f1. Plus it could make places like the Dubai autodrome or road america viable options.
I don't really get the hype people have for Baku. The only reason it "produces" good results is when an odd timed safety car happens, if Seb thinks he got brake checked, Max's tire had enough or Lewis forgot about his brake magic. all other occasions where just dull (2016,2019,2022,2023) Singapur is a tough race for the drivers but as we saw 2019, it's so hard to overtake, the drivers don't even bother going all out. To call Jeddah a street circuit to me feels like a joke, since it looks more like a track that was purposely made and the city part was just build around it so they can call it a street race as some kind of PR gag. Miami.... If it's not Monaco where you basicly have a country race because there is simply no space for a racetrack, I don't get the appeal of a street race (from a racing perspective). You have to somehow find a layout that is intresting and challenging enough that also provides enough space for cars to battle and that's what street tracks are usually lacking of. Than there is the cost part. If you race on a track it's the owners of the track having to pay entry fees etc. From what I understand, if you race on a street track, it's the city and thereby the citizens paying for the race which to me just doesn't seem right consider the ridiculousl high entry fees track have to pay to host a race (although I get the potential benefits a race can bring to a city). But for me the most of setting part of an increase in street race is that those tracks just lack character. They don't feel special and it doesn't feel as as much of an achievement to win there like for example a win at Silverstone or Suzuka or Imola or Spa (again Monaco being the exception). With the expansion of the calender and the adding of strange races, the ever hanging sprint race formats and the "ideas" of fom and FIA and the never ending comments about " improving the show" F1 just starts to feel more and more gimmicky and less like a competition of whits and skill. Don't get me wrong I'm still one of those guys who watches almost every session from Friday to Sunday, listens to opinion pieces, technical analysis videos and predictions because I'm simply this fascinated by the sport and I'm a fan since the mid 90's (basicly is since I can walk and talk but I can't remember the early 90's so...) but the way F1 is "evolving" just feels wrong and is concerning in my opinion. If we replace (old-school) racetracks with street tracks F1 is just loosing parts of its soul and it's appeal as a racing series. Sometimes you should just stay true to your roots (could you imagine an endurance race in London? no because it would be ridiculous) I think F1 is starting to forget what it is and the inflation of the calender as well as adding new "street track" just proves to point to me. I know this is kind of a rant but I had to get this of my chest, so thanks to everyone who made it to the end of this comment.
I partially agree, losing year by year most of the road tracks in the calendar would alienate the core fans in the medium-short run and might not be good. Also, I think F1 should have tried to steal Long Beach to Indycar, as it's near LA and that city is more iconic than Miami or Vegas. Also, I find the track itself nice, with a trademark place (the roundabout in the First sector). I also think all these street races bids might be a trend, just like Tilkedroms in the 2010s and the asian expansion between late 90s and early 2010s.
F1 problem is not having too many street circuits, it is simply trying to cram too many races into the calendar in general. The other problem with street circuits, particularly Monaco, is that they are too cramped for the sheer size of modern F1 cars that now have the same footprint as a long wheelbase Ford Transit van.
I always hate racing in the street circuits in f1 games, cause there is no margin for error (like the baku track corner 8). These track show who's who, cause draivers have to race AND be vary of the walls. The problem is the same as with all the other tracks - f1 doesn't have many options for strategy (like it was with refueling) and since the cars are now too reable, most races are boring, cause if something doesn't go wrong, it's always the same drivers in front
I started watching F1 in 1978. Monaco and Long Beach that year. Seen dreadful races on really poor street circuits. However, some of these street circuits are still on the Indycar list. Detroit this year was great, as was Long Beach. F1 might need to look at itself as right now, Indycar is a far superior product, racing on streets that F1 used to. The bring tourism to the city doesn't appear to bring a lot of tourism money. Look at things like the Olympics or the World Cup. Millions to host the race, plust the cost of getting the city ready for the race against how much revenue will come to the area. I don't watch an F1 street race and think that I must visit that city. Especially if it is a dull race (like most). Las Vegas might be the exception as F1 paid for the event itself. Liberty have pumped $240m of their own money into the project. Looking for a reutrn on investment means that general admission starts at $500. If people are willing to pay that amount, then more fool them. I'll just watch the highlights on UA-cam as the so called pinacle of motorsport couldn't even run on Friday due to a fault with the CCTV at the circuit. Indycar for me since last year
I don't think the street circuits are a big deal. The spectacle of them being so close to the walls and tire strategies are fun to watch as well. My issue this year was where they were put on the calendar. I feel like if they were more spread out and not in consecutive races, we wouldn't hear so much grumbling.
The calendar needs a balance of street, historic and purpose-built circuits. 20%, 50% and 30% imo. Nearly all of the new tracks have all been unimpressive Tilke street tracks so it feels really imbalanced when we're losing the other types to make way for them. And can we just delete the track that looks like a sperm, Jeddah, please?
Australia has one of the best circuits in the world. Phillip Island. Fast, flowy, fans and drivers alike love it.. But. Its in the middle of fucking nowhere. With no close accomodation or amenities... It also, has 4 season an hour... But, travelling 3 hours each way to watch a 90 min race in the rain is not fun, or appealing. This is where I see the value in street circuits. Watch the race and go home to your warm bed via the pub/dinner etc.
Race coordinators now do not build new tracks or use old tracks because it is cheaper to bribe F. I. A. officials into giving them a F1 STREET CIRCUT race, than building a new track or upgrading tracks
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I think one of the problems is that circuits cant afford to be Grade 1. Look at Spa/Silverstone always about to go bankrupt. Street circuits only need to exist for the race.
Dont know about Spa, but Silverstone has always been like this because its the only circuit on the calendar that doesn’t receive any government funding, hence the higher average ticket price
"About to go bankrupt". If spa and silvertone can't be mantained, what else can? I don't buy it. I am not aware of the financial situation of these circuits, but interlagos is absurdly profitable and since it's inception >certain peoplecertain people< just want to buy premium estate for peanuts and sit on the amazing golden goose that are such a race track as these. But that's really not the main point of the video. Oh well
A circuit being "grade 1" is necessary for Formula 1, you can't risk having a fatality anymore. Especially if it's something easily preventable like Jules (not through the Halo, but better SC procedures). I also feel they need to be more strict with tracks like Jeddah and Portimao.
@@cbj4sc1 Yet street circuits don't need to be
@@cbj4sc1 Jules Bianchi was killed at a grade 1 circuit because of the FIA race director - no fault of the circuit or safety car procedure. Charlie Whiting is the reason why Jules Bianchi is no longer with us.
Aidan: "Why so many street circuits?"
F1: "MONEY!"
The fan engagement aspect... there was never a problem in filling up stands in regular circuits as long as they are not located in the middle of nowhere. I don't like this current trend when we have tracks like Sepang, Hockenheim, Istambul Park or Portimão outside the calendar. Monaco and Baku, together with the Australia and Canada hybrids satiate my need for street circuits.
Good thought out comment Soundscape.
I just wonder when everything, including F1, now revolves around extreme comfort and what can be done outside of the racing. I'd note the fun people had at Watkins Glen but we really don't want nonstop debauchery and destruction. Sure have maybe two street circuits but don't sacrifice the sport to them.
Noting your thought on "Located in the middle of nowhere"; I come from a motocross and professional motocross background from the mid-70s to late 80's. All of the tracks then were in the middle of nowhere and part of the fun of the sport was often just finding the tracks. You camped out, if you were a spectator you walked around the track to view as much of it as possible, and if you were racing you competed on a true natural terrain track. Now all of the tracks that hold Nationals are near the airports, have stands, and are often built on some random flat piece of ground with huge built up jumps and are as inspiring as watching paint dry.
I'd give my left one for another race at Sepang. I'd give the right one for Kyalami. I'd give the middle one to ditch Saudi or Miami or (whisper it) Monaco.
@@pursang6792 The "middle of nowhere" argument was used most noticeably in two situations... Magny-Cours and South Korea. In the first case it didn't hold that much weight because the circuit also had good attendances as far as I can remember. That said, it was not a better track than Paul Ricard, don't let nostalgia trick you. Nobody liked Magny-Cours that much back in the day.
In Korea's case yes... the relative novelty of F1 among Koreans but most especially the track being located quite far away from population centers killed it.
If a street circuit is a proper challenge and differs from other tracks on the calendar, then bring them on, I say. Singapore is nice with it being about the only race to run the 2 hour limit (though with the changes this year, it'll be much faster), Valencia and Miami are examples of bad street tracks.
I do like the physical aspect of Singapore despite it not being the most favourite track of mine the longest race of the year and the race in the worst conditions in terms of temperature and humidity
I generally don't like street tracks but a few work.
Valencia wasn't that bad (tho I mostly remember the 2012 race so my view may be bit distorted), Miami is ok (lot better racing than Monaco), wonder what the Las Vegas would be.
Generally purpose build circuits are lot better than "street" ones.
If you're going to make a street track, make sure to use as much of the normal streets as possible. The problem with this is that a lot of streets are planned, so they have 90 degree corners way too often. I'd love to see F1 cars tackle Kenilworths roads, that huge elevation change around Abbey Fields would be amazing. The streets mingle with the natural landscape, not the other way around.
I want to see them go round Spaghetti Junction 🤣
@@AidanMillward during rush hour? ;)
Like the street tracks that GT use to design based on real locations?
@@AidanMillward Unlike the stadium in Miami, I don't think Villa Park would hold the paddock 🤣
@@Renard998 they’d have to knock it down in that case. Good. 😅
I remember loving street circuits when I was a kid because of how different they were. Adelaide will always be the favourite. I remember staying up to watch the last one there. Damon winning by two laps (get in!) Panis bringing a self destructing Mugen engine home, Morbidelli on the podium, Lamy getting a point for Minardi, Forti and Pacific JUST missing out, the pitlane entrance shenanigans, Frentzen going full road rage trying to lap Blundell, Murray having to reign in Alan Jones on commentary, Taki Inoue...
They were the best of times, they were the blurst of times.
It’s funny because back in the 90s and early 00s, we used to say it was a shame that Monaco was the only “pure” street circuit, whilst CART was producing good racing on them in America.
To be honest I don’t care. Some street tracks are good, some aren’t. I don’t think you can just compare them all, the same way that you can’t say all road courses are the same.
In my opinion, Baku is good, Jeddah is good, Miami is average…
So I don’t think there’s too many, it just depends on the quality on them. If the next new venue is a street circuit then I won’t judge it until I’ve seen it.
One thing that a lot of these street circuits have in common is that a major international airport is nearby. Melbourne, Montreal, Singapore, Vegas and Miami are a few examples. Silverstone is a good couple of hours from Heathrow, Spa is on the other side of the country from Brussels, Monza is quite a way out from Milan. The idea with the street circuits is that one can fly in, see the race and fly out again, which is ideal for the celebrity/jetsetter types who are in and out of somewhere in the blink of an eye.
Melbourne and Montreal survived for being good tracks, Montreal especially. Also - both are built in parks with way more flexibility.
F1 had a look at Coventry inner ring road some years ago. The elevated section with Armco barriers and negative camber might have been interesting.
I live in Coventry. The ring road could be a great Formula E track.
Wait WHAT.
They had Motofest there a few weeks back, also using the ring road, so if they did, it would probably look like that. Them coming out of the tunnels would be amazing. Though they put a number of chicanes to slow the cars and I think they overdid it. They'd have to use a lot more of the ring road.
Some street circuits are surprisingly good, like Baku which has become an instant classic. While others are just so dull they really shouldn't be there like Miami. I'd have no problem with having all these circuits if the classic circuits that generate quality racing weren't being shoved aside for them. I think F1 could introduce a rotation, where there 10 or so excellenet tracks that are on the calendar every year, Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Silverstone, Monaco, Bahrain, Baku, Montreal, Interlagos and Hockenheim, I haven't given that list a huge amount of thought so don't shoot me. Then the remainder of tracks rotate in and out, maybe every second year, maybe twice every 3 years, whatever works best. This could also allow space to give some circuits a once off run, the likes of Fuji, Buenos Aires, Le Mans, try some new stuff, where because it's a once off it should generate greater buzz for the single running.
When there was just Monaco and Singapore it was fine. Albert Park and Montreal are interesting cases because they also have grass and gravel in addition to their street layout
But I think after that, that should be it because of all the things you mentioned. We shouldn't price out genuine purpose built tracks for another 'street' circuit, even for ones like Miami and Jeddah that strain the definition of a 'street race'
Although it would be nice to have a Las Vegas GP that is actually IN Las Vegas. The two in the eighties and the new round this year have all been in Paradise not LV
The Las Vegas and Cesars Palace GPs have gotta be the closest to venues that aren't actually the same venue (i.e. Excluding the Nürbirgring GP Strecke and Nordschliefe because they use the same start finish straight). Any idea what would be 2nd closest?
@@DanielHarveyDyer Mountjuich and Catalunya in Spain as they are both in Barcelona
I'm glad you're still making these kinds of videos as well. Yeah they might get less clicks than your story time videos but I still like listening to your opinions like a podcast in the background.
Much appreciated content mate :)
Both series tend to swap ends. Sometimes these will do well and the history stuff drops off and sometimes the history stuff does well and this does average for the analytics.
They also break things up a bit. I’ve got other stuff I want to do too.
I for one hate it. Places like Road America or Mid Ohio would be far better locations for racing than Miami or Vegas. Of course you can't get some celebrity who has no clue about the sport to come to wisconsin to be on the grid
You want a circuit close to the fans, but not too close? IMS is a 15 minute drive from downtown Indy and I n my opinion has a really fun roval layout. Other places like Barber and Sonoma would be pretty badass too
Yes, but you have the PTSD from 2004. It'd be neat to see F1 back at Indy, especially now with the Snake Pit section, but I don't know if we'd all be...willing to make amends just yet.
I like Street Circuits that have legitimate history to it. My example would be Long Beach and Toronto, 2 tracks Indycar races on that feels natural and not just profit-driven moves to big markets.
If there's one "street" race I want to see, it would be one on Tempelhof airfield. But not like the Formula E layout. Use one of the former runways. The one closer to the terminal is less than 2km from one taxiway to the other, so it wouldn't breach the circuit regulation of being too long. The terminal, where the entire current Formula E track is, could be the place for the pit complex and maybe a chicane or something more interesting. Depending on what exactly that last part looks like, the track would be about 4.5km long, which is pretty decent.
Maybe the circuit could turn out pretty dull, but the thought of seeing F1 cars running down an airport runway is pretty cool. Also, neither Nürburgring nor Hockenheimring are hosting an F1 race any time soon, so this would bring a German race back to the calendar, which would be pretty nice.
With Audi set to join Mercedes on the grid there’s got to be a case for a regular race in Germany. Your idea of using Templehof sounds interesting …..
I would like to see either that or an upgraded-to-grade 1 Lausitzring. A roval circuit might be a one of a kind in current F1.
I could see it looking like CART's Cleveland circuit...both in being very wide into very narrow corners, inviting divebombs...and also being b o m p y.
To quote David Hobbs, "I suspect money was involved."
That's why I jumped ship to WEC/IMSA. these reasons and Multiclass racing is cool
I think what plays a big part in this is where-is-the-big-money factor. Now we have an overabundance of mostly soulless urban tracks, but not too long ago we had an invasion of Tilkodromes in places where people didn't care much for motorsports in general. I'd say things have not changed much in the sense that several new tracks come, few remain as good circuits.
I loved Detroit in the 1980s. Great cars, drivers who spoke their mind, and corners on the track where you were literally 1.5 - 2.0 meters from the cars.
I like street circuits that have character. They don't necessarily need to provide good racing. But they need to be more than just 90 degree corners with the odd hairpin. And be in area that has some good scenery. One or the other is ok.
If you want scenery go on holiday, I watch racing for the racing
I'd say there's a case that street circuits are better than having another billion-dollar Tilke-drome rotting somewhere in the wilderness (obligatory mention: Istanbul, Buddh, Yeongam). But I will also opine that management staring at a world map, plonking down races wherever they see a major city, without regard for whether that city has any actual fans (or any regard for their fans at all, for that matter, or for the legacy venues that provide more than just ticket sales), desperately trying to gin up engagement that may or may not actually last... we've heard this story from the Americans before, right?
Problem is the cars are wide, too wide.
I feel like the issue is mainly caused by "street" circuits. Normal circuits but they put them in an urban area and put walls next to it so it could more easily get an f1 viable safety grade and is cheaper to make.
The thing about Kyalami is it has history and it's a purpose built circuit but also close to an urban area. By the way, what is NIMBY?
NIMBY is an acronym for Not In My Back Yard - the sort of people who kick off when anything new and/or a minor inconvenience is mooted in their community.
@@BungleBare ah yes. Thank you for the information.
It’s a double edged sword for me,
As a long time race fan I was ecstatic about the Vegas race (I’m a local) however I quickly realized I can’t actually afford to go and be able to watch it. (I am the electrical project manager over the paddock build out so at least I got that going) my wife is also a big fan and she like me will just watch our new home GP from the couch.
My favorite circuits are Spa, Imola, silverstone, and Montreal. So the idea of any of those going away for a Vegas GP saddens me.
However the new found love for the sport and the amount of money people are throwing at it only strengthens the sport, and after 2008, along with the 2014 regs, it felt like the sport was on life support.
Just my thoughts.
Too much downforce again should just allow F1 to reduce wing aero further, which should in turn improve racing. Doesn't fix any of the other issues of course.
Money as always, imagine how many more snouts get access to the trough when planning a street circuit compared to an existing circuit.
The downtown Detroit IndyCar race was awful. No passing zones, and areas that are so thin you have to go one by one.
Street circuits with some degree of run off (Albert Park, Belle Isle) have some appeal but I am sick of the pace car events on walled off street circuits (Detroit, St. Petersburg). It's been a blight on the otherwise excellent Indy Car seasons and will produce the same confusing instances of endless pace car laps the further F1 gets into it.
Street circuits still only draw wealthy fans like Miami and Monaco. Put that Florida F1 race at Sebring and see what happens !
As a semi casual F1 fan, tracks can have good racing, good visuals, or preferably both. When you've got street tracks at night like Jeddha or the car park monstrosity that is Miami, you get neither. There's something special seeing F1 cars with lovely historic architecture like Baku or Monaco, but when you don't have that you're far better off having the race at a proper circuit.
Also, as an American I know F1 is massively attempting to cater to me, but all races like Miami or Vegas do is fill me with disgust, it's far cheaper for me to go to the canadian grand prix, and I'd have better racing and a more hospitable climate to boot, while also not putting myself in debt.
One theory is that if a purpose built track finds F1 too expensive they can have Moto GP as their headline instead but that's not an option for a street track.
Thanks, mate. Always happy to watch your snarky, interesting and intelligent videos!
Nice video, i like street trac ks but i do think there is a limit and i do think that limit is where we are at, that said i don't mind new ones if they are a challenge and create good racing. Perhaps the ideal soloution is for street circuiits to do a share type of thing, like Hocenhime and the Nurbegring
F1 is too saturated and obsessed with money, commercialism and status leaving many traditional fans, including myself, have long since switched off. And yes, it was better back in the old days no matter what stats you throw at me. And I'm going back to Monaco 1982 cheering on Derek Daly because we had fuck all else to cheer about.
The only benefit to street circuits, I guess, is they make the drivers stay within track limits or suffer the consequences. Those consequences can be race ending and it's interesting to see which drivers can adapt to a track with no grace area to exploit.
There's an angle you haven't mentioned. Street circuits are designed for TV rather than for spectators on the ground. Many of the established circuits have places where you can physically see a number of corners, so will be far more interesting to watch directly. (At Brands you can see about half the circuit from many locations, at least for the club circuit).
F1 wants us to watch these races on pay TV because they get a greater direct rake off that way. They aren't that interested in bums on seats, that's the circuit's problem.
F1 cars need a circuit where they can really stretch their legs, stop-go 90 degree corners may be all right for the overgrown Scalextric that is Formula E, indeed they are vital for regen purposes, but not for F1.
Can the street circuits and get back to proper tracks.
The thing that baffles me is that whining about Monaco is considered a given, yet the schedule is overrun with street circuits, all of which suffer from the same problems because (a) they are street circuits and (b) the cars are enormous. In a perfect would I would keep Monaco for nostalgia's sake and ditch all the rest. Problem solved.
Edit: I should mention here, also, that I am all for sporting venues of all kinds being easily accessible to major cities. Walking from a pregame hangout right to the game is a true joy, and if that was practically achievable with racing I'd be thrilled. It's just that street circuits tend to be objectively disappointing, especially for modern F1.
Street circuits have there place, and so do permanent circuits. F1 can do both, but the right ratio has to be achieved. If Miami and Vagas make the money so the permanent tracks can stay then fine. If they just line the high ups pockets and not help F1 or the areas it goes to then drop them.
If F1 street circuits gave races as awesome as the Detroit race in IndyCar was this year then I'd be fine with half the season being street tracks. But apart from Baku, which usually delivers, F1 cars don't really go with street tracks anymore. Formula E at Monaco is amazing. Three wide in the hairpin and overtakes in places an F1 car would find impossible. If they insist on new street tracks, they either need to come up with aero regs specifically for those track designs, or design the tracks so the current regs work on them. Designing the two independently and you'll get a season full of Monaco processions. Pretty cars in pretty locations with a packed stand of very bored spectators.
The biggest problem with street tracks is that you only have so much leeway with how to design them since the existing infrastructure of the city itself cannot be changed short of F1 buying out the properties in the relevant area and demolishing them to redevelop their plots as part of the circuit.
My first thought is that I don’t really separate races by street vs track as far as good racing is concerned (whatever that is). If I had to rate tracks I suspect I’d end up with a mix of types from top to bottom. But that’s from a tv viewer’s perspective.
I know I sound like an old man shouting at the wind, but I’m sick to death of street tracks, I’m sick to death of this whole DTS generation. We don’t need 30 races in a season, 20 races on good circuits are more than enough.
I think the street circuits are just F1 trying to gain appeal in the U.S. and other new markets, but with less commitment and money being wasted. Street circuits exist only for the race, and are cheaper than building purpose built tracks in a market thats still only luke warm to the sport. Thats a gamble.
Money.
I agree there are too many “street” circuits around these days, I say “street” because I’m of the opinion that Jeddah isn’t a real street circuit, as it was (poorly imho) designed with racing in mind on free/cleared land and not based on pre existing streets (with maybe a tiny addon here and there) converted to race on. Sure it’s used as public road now when there’s no racing going on, but that’s not the point. If a track isn’t based on pre existing streets and with a “make the best of what’s available” attitude, it’s not a real street circuit. Miami imho falls in the same category as the Melbourne and Canada tracks, more a “hybrid” style of street track as Miami uses some pre existing roads for the track, but most of it is a purpose build layout on a huge parkinglot. Just my 2ct. :)
Don't need more street tracks.....
As an old F1 fan I am beginning to struggle with what has been my favourite sport, I know what they say it is...but i'll call a naff-ness to what i'm watching
Personally, I'm not a fan of street circuits, but they cobble these things together for cash, and here we are. They are reality.
Street circuits bore me senseless
Sick of street circuits. We compromise the essence of the sport for ease of access, wider fan engagement.. For a true fan, travelling 1hr to the track is well worth the trouble for genuine racing.
In some ways, one could say that it's a kind of return to its roots of being in the heart of the city and closer to "fan engagement" that they nauseatingly want to put it. I love Monaco and wouldn't want to see it go away (as practically anyone has probably gathered from my comments in the past) but I would agree wholeheartedly that they're overegging this obsession with street circuits because it's venture capitalism at its worst - it costs next to nothing for the likes of Liberty but there's maximum gains to be had and the most pleasing aspect for them is they get it all their own way in accordance with the teams which is why there's always the beef they've had with Monaco (baulking at the exceptional status that it has) and Spa - they feel the Ardennes forests are "the middle of nowhere" and the fact that tickets to the Belgian GP along with Monza are some of the cheapest during the year (they must feel like they're losing money even when they're earning it).
It just means that their great ideas ended up more often than not just feel like washouts. The obsessive tinkering with the rules aimed at trying to bring closer racing just rings hollow and artificial and I think sooner or later the people who have gotten into F1 due to Drive to Survive are sooner or later going to switch off from what's on show and the aggressive attitude taken against the purists among us is only going to alienate the product even more.
On the subject of Formula E, I definitely think Formula E spooked F1 into returning to street circuits. Of course they were going about beforehand but it just seems that with the advent of Formula E just brought out a er...turbocharged "Oh yeah? Well we'll do twice as many street circuits than you" attitude.
My hot take: i would give F1 only 3 city courses ,changing every year voted by the fans at the end of the season. The rest of GPs on real racetracks ,furthermore make Formula E bigger and give them the city GPs only. The races would be even better ,cooperate with F1 more and do longer races. I think that could help both series (F1&FE) and it could kick off new developments ;) thanks for that interesting vid ,have a nice day valued Humanoids🐾
u can expect monaco, baku and australia to stay, the rest can go
Kind of unrelated but i want COTA replaced by Indy, the same layout used in 2007.
You’re the only one wanting this. COTA keeps getting better.
COTA is one of the good circuits on the calendar.
@@leghumper83 That track, Laguna Seca and Sonoma might be the only ones worth to replace COTA if It has problems, but It must be seen if they could get to grade 1.
Also, COTA is the best track of the three in the US, while Vegas looks like a Champ Car street circuit under steroids. Miami is on the middle of the road personally.
While most of us complain, at the end of day on raceday we sit down and watch. We engage in social media in regards to the action and still consume their product, so F1 will continue down the path of more money.
simple reason.... easier to fill grandstands.
I hate street circuit. I feel like it kinda kill the race. When the track is narrow, surrounded by wall and every single kerb is just waiting to send one of the big bulky car into one of them, it greatly reduce the overtake opportunity because the driver need to be extra cautious not to damage their car. One or two street circuit per season is ok, but I rather see more proper race track with interesting layout
Same reason as anything with F1. Money!
There are far too many street circuits for me. Singapore and Baku work rest don't... not really.
U said it, all tarmacs are local recipe. I guess it's going to depend on gate admissions whether the race is s success - not whether the on track product is an abomination.
Bernie told Silverstone - Build 2 Omni Hotels on site, that will fix everything... Except it will sit empty 80% of the year, your sanctioning fees are increasing or we'll go back to Brandd, but Bernie wouldn't get stuck in traffic after the race. I don't like it either.
Jeddah meant to be just a temporary solution while they build a proper motorsport center in Riyadh
Qatar also was announced as a street track from 2023 onwards
Melbourne is still a hybrid imo. It's the Aussie way of building a street track in a park or at least partially, allows it to have better flow.
I don't mind street tracks if there is no options in said country. Like Baku. America is a great example of a place that could have all 3 races at permanent.
I can be happy if they remove monza or Imola because there are better tracks in Italy.... Mugello anyone
Honestly, i think that we have too many street circuits. Call me old fashioned but i like circuits surrounded by grass and gravel traps. Where the race doesnt have to be stopped for a knocked off front wing because the circuit has no space. Monaco was only special because it was the only hardcore street circuit. Its not just the racing either. I have a buddy who lives in Las Vegas and he is dreading the disruption to him thats gunna occur, the fact its gunna ruin his path to get into work and such, all for a race that will in all liklyhood be dull and boring. And theres so many good proper tracks out there that they could use.
Las Vegas will be a joke! A midnight start, in a desert and 45 degree temp. That race will be a joke.
It will be interesting to see if this goes on after 2026 when the engines are expected to make more noise again (though of course not as much as the naturally aspirated formulae) with the removal of the MGU-H.
When the sanctioning body 🤔 only caters to the "spectacle" the racing will surely suffer and die.
Never forget what got you to where you are.
Every series that does circuit racing has tried to make street circuits work, F1, Indycar, WEC, IMSA, now NASCAR with Chicago, and the major issue is that it depends on the local government, and we can use NASCARs Chicago Street Race as an example: this race has a contract that was signed under the Lori Lightfoot administration, so as long as Lori Lightfoot is mayor of Chicago then there's no issue, it's just that she lost her primary
Edit: I actually saw that T-Mobile is actually running a deal for T-Mobile and Metro by T-Mobile customers in that you get 10% off a grandstand ticket, but I don't think it's actually a good deal because I'm a Metro by T-Mobile customer and Metro by T-Mobile is the "cheap option" and the Las Vegas race is just way too expensive
We go to street circuits because they are economical (Low cost and no annual maintenance). F1 is having trouble enforcing track limits on road coruses so barriers at edge mean you damage car if you drift to wide. And inner city's have hotels and facilities like restaurants that are around track, so you don't have to mouve that stuff in the middle of a small town like Silverstone.
(Apologies, it ended up longer than planned as I kept thinking of yet other problems re city circuits. TL:DR I don't like them - with reasons, and many pro-arguments can be rendered null & void.)
IMHO, there's a bit of a myth regarding the cost of the track being less at a street circuit than a permanent track - at least this is how it seems to me. And I don't just mean financially, although I do think that is underestimated when it comes to temporary ones.
A permanent circuit will have the best part of a year to make improvements or changes in general, without disrupting anything. They also have the ability to have long-term plans for how they want it to turn out and to enact those changes.
Look at Silverstone only a relatively short time ago. They were able to build the new pit lane with the "wing" building on it (and as an aside, I really think they did a cracking job with that!) whilst continuing to use the old ones as and when required. Because of the known outcome, and the way they planned it, they were able to make the most of any opportunities that came their way to speed up, or otherwise aid the build.
For example, when the price of steel plummeted, they were able to buy in all the required beams etc for the building and had the room to store it until required. Apparently it saved a bomb in comparison with the budgeted initial costs based on the original cost of the steel (IIRC it was a 6 figure saving). They were also able to bring forward some of the jobs and saved more money by having a shorter overall total build time - and the builders didn't get a fine for delays I believe. I can always be wrong, so feel free to correct me. (There is a point to this!)
Outside of Monaco, where nobody expects decent facilities (though I do believe that they improved the pit lane some years back), new street circuits, which are expected to have the highest standards regarding the facilities, are in use for c.360 days of the year. (I have no idea at what exact point they need to start the conversion - it's possibly different from track to track, but you get my drift. It's most of the year.)
Every _minute_ that they close roads, either _en masse_ or one at a time, for part of the day or completely until the circus rolls into town, they are going to be inconveniencing the locals, quite possibly making businesses shut for the preparation and the race weekend (thereby costing money in reparations, _if_ the organisers are anything like half-decent people). They will be creating more inconvenience on the lead up to the event due to the amount of work to repair any track damage that's happened over the year. This would be pointless to fix much earlier because it might well need further repairs - patching up roads is an ongoing problem, and certain potholes or whatever are just impossible to get rid of without completely relaying the whole road. And I do mean taking it down to the foundations to repair them, because that's often the ultimate cause.
(Hubby was in Highways for his first "grown up" job. I just checked with him and he said that to do it properly, it is a "to the foundations" job. Overall, that's actually a cheaper option, but this isn't a full discussion about pothole fixing!)
Outside of the road, there's all of the facilities, the grandstands, the timing tower and screens, the start line lights etc, the trackside protection, etc, etc, etc. These will take up storage space somewhere - or if brought by the FIA, there's the added cost for transport - and will only be used once a year. Imagine the cost of the safer barrier (the "bouncy castle barrier" I heard it called at Le Mans this year), which I presume will be eye-wateringly high (safety doesn't come cheap), yet it's used _once_ a year - or rather one event with the F1 race and a few other formats, depending on where and when the race is held.
In other words, the actual cost of buying the equipment, paying off inconvenienced locals, paying the wages of the undoubtedly hundreds of people required to set up the track (and dismantle it - sometimes every day and night of the event if the roads don't stay permanently closed), and so on, is going to be a _LOT_ higher than we think.
Given all of that, on top of the often lousy layouts, some with streets too narrow for overtaking outside of the pits, and a general dislike for them by the majority of fans (maybe it's just the majority of us who grew up with Monaco as being special because it was the "odd man out", and the cars were small enough to overtake in some places, but I have heard and read many complaints by younger, enthusiastic fans of the racing itself, and not just being a fanboi of a particular driver because of Netflix), I honestly don't see any real benefits to the street circuits. Have a proper circuit not far from a local town or city, run frequent shuttles to and from the track to the town (where the hotels will be bursting at the seams), and any "it's a great advertisement for X city" is rendered pointless as an argument as just about everyone will go there anyway! I know that's not always possible with some proper tracks, but you can't please everyone all the time.
So, end of my essay (I knew it would be long, but... Oops!? Sorry!). Hopefully I've made some sense but I've been up since just after 4. 2 hours' sleep isn't enough to remain completely, er, on track 😉)
I think a part of it could be the evolution of the formula and how formidable it has become. As design and engineering perfection gets approached, entertaining racing gets more difficult. ( As opposed to, say, touring cars where a road-going family car can only be brought so close to racing perfection 🤏. That's more likely to have something or other exploitable by opponents on the track, and you get a more entertaining spectacle ).
Racetracks existed happily for decades, then eventually we couldn't overtake on them anymore. So Hermann Tilke tried designing tracks around how the cars performed in the era. Unsurprisingly, they had similar features: A _this_ section into a _that_ section into a _this_ corner,... and the car behind should be able to....
So now its the tight streets' turn to have a try 🤷. ( Though the bigger car decision is a curious one for this ).
I'm reminded of the _"bigger, stronger, faster"_ problem in team sports. The field, the court and the rink, however, remain the same size.
How about we get more of Liberty Media to raise money to fix more grade 2 tracks!? (Kyalami, Brands Hatch, etc) those would definitely work for F1 grand Prix's, if renovations can jump them up. But nope, we need either a street race, a middle Eastern race or another USA race. It needs to be changed around, like Africa still doesn't have a race for a "WDC" yet we get 3 races in America. That's just my take.
Singapore has been the only new street track I’ve really enjoyed, the rest haven’t done owt for me. Baku is rubbish if you take the last 3rd away.
The best races of the last few years have been all on proper racetracks
baku is definitely the worst track since 2016
No matter what, we should always give a new venue a chance. If it produces good racing, keep it! If the opposite happens, get that circuit off the calendar instantly!
I think Singapore and Baku are the best of the post 1996 street circuits we’ve had. The rest are just crap really. As for overtaking issues, just take the damn front wing off of the car, square off the rear wing and make it one element only, and have done with it. With ground effect there’s no need for the front wing. Oh and no power steering. Drive it like you’re trying to move a fully loaded washing machine.
Unless the FIA/F1 reigns in the performance potential of the cars, it's going to be more street circuits. Street Circuits are the easiest and cheapest way to conform to the FIA track grades, as opposed to remodeling an existing track or building a new track. And if F1 wants a new road course on the schedule they are going to have to be content with the race being outside the Metro area (which conflicts with the current marketing image).
As a NASCAR fan in addition to F1, NASCAR is going to find out first hand many of the issues that were mentioned in the video in a few weeks with the Chicago street race. In my view NASCAR should have stayed at Road America or gone to North Wikesboro for the 4th of July as both of those venues are better choices. Stock cars simply are not built for the streets & even the most experienced Cup Series driver will struggle to drive through the streets of Chicago. I don't why NASCAR decided to get into the business of having street races when their bread & butter is oval racing especially at superspeedways like Daytona & Talladega & short tracks like Bristol & Martinsville.
Too many street circuits. Keep Monaco, Singapore, Azerbaijan, and Australia. If a new proposed track can't measure up to the quality of Singapore, it has no business being in F1.
Thanks for liking my 🇸🇬 gp 😂😂
Raceday Brings it's Own Surprises - no Matter the Circuit Layout.
Miami - anothr Boring Street Circuit...
Lando Won! - Wow, what an Exciting Race!
I just watched an AMA Superbike race at some place I never heard of called Ridge Motorsport Park. Lovely track. Elevation changes, scenery, challenging corners. But F1 cars are such divas that they need specific tracks built especially for them. And then a 300 million dollar catering building for the Saudi princes. F1 has its head so far up its ass that it can taste its own tonsils.
I like street races quite a bit, but I'm not willing to sacrifice great racetracks just for having more street circuits. Especially when that great race track is also a historic icon, or when the street circuit is just a poor design, due to the nature of it being a street circuit.
If they want fan engagement, then cheaper tickets and also stop making rules changes at the request of a single team. Oh and fix things so the cars can go nose to tail lap after lap.
Street racing circuits was a core philosopy for Formula E, but apparently that series doesn't pay enough.
Street circuits will be the death of F1, last few years have really started to push me away.
Liberty media are killing the sport for racing fans, it's now just an endless procession of media hype trains. There's no real racers calling the shots anymore.
Indycar moved from a...sort-of street circuit to a full-on street circuit this year in Detroit, and of course there's still Crashville, Long Beach, Toronto, and St. Pete on the calendar. If they went from Mid-Ohio back to Cleveland I feel like they'd have nearly equal numbers of street and 'proper' circuits, if you discount they run the Indy road course twice. Ovals feel nearly gone outside of Indy and a couple of relatively obscure Midwestern intermediate tracks (which might be a good thing: see Pocono,) ...and Texas. c'mon, at least head back to Milwaukee, guys.
Hell, NASCAR is racing in Chicago, downtown right next to the Field Museum. Chicago, a city which hasn't seen a street circuit race since...well, 1895, I think, in a race held for the Chicago Times-Herald. And NASCAR themselves hasn't seen a street circuit race since...uh...ever. at least I think.
im not the biggest fan of street circuits in formula 1 because i think they always devolve into parades i.e monaco. i think street circuits in indycar (st pete, long beach, toronto) produce better racing because there the actual racing surface is wide and the cars themselves are small, and theres more straights and relatively flowing curves. i think also drs ruins the long straights of, say, baku, because you cant defend against drs and its really powerful there. anyway, id rather see formula 1 go to more traditional tracks, if there was a way for road america for example to not change its character to be fia grade 1 id rather see formula 1 there than miami.
I think what could help is if the FIA let F1 race at grade 2 tracks. For permanent circuits to not have to be 100% grade 1 perfect could help drive more permanent circuits to want to be in f1. Plus it could make places like the Dubai autodrome or road america viable options.
No chance. Way too much risk of an accident and someone dying, then the FIA and others would be sued into bankruptcy for gross negligence.
I don't really get the hype people have for Baku. The only reason it "produces" good results is when an odd timed safety car happens, if Seb thinks he got brake checked, Max's tire had enough or Lewis forgot about his brake magic. all other occasions where just dull (2016,2019,2022,2023) Singapur is a tough race for the drivers but as we saw 2019, it's so hard to overtake, the drivers don't even bother going all out. To call Jeddah a street circuit to me feels like a joke, since it looks more like a track that was purposely made and the city part was just build around it so they can call it a street race as some kind of PR gag. Miami....
If it's not Monaco where you basicly have a country race because there is simply no space for a racetrack, I don't get the appeal of a street race (from a racing perspective). You have to somehow find a layout that is intresting and challenging enough that also provides enough space for cars to battle and that's what street tracks are usually lacking of. Than there is the cost part. If you race on a track it's the owners of the track having to pay entry fees etc. From what I understand, if you race on a street track, it's the city and thereby the citizens paying for the race which to me just doesn't seem right consider the ridiculousl high entry fees track have to pay to host a race (although I get the potential benefits a race can bring to a city).
But for me the most of setting part of an increase in street race is that those tracks just lack character. They don't feel special and it doesn't feel as as much of an achievement to win there like for example a win at Silverstone or Suzuka or Imola or Spa (again Monaco being the exception).
With the expansion of the calender and the adding of strange races, the ever hanging sprint race formats and the "ideas" of fom and FIA and the never ending comments about " improving the show" F1 just starts to feel more and more gimmicky and less like a competition of whits and skill. Don't get me wrong I'm still one of those guys who watches almost every session from Friday to Sunday, listens to opinion pieces, technical analysis videos and predictions because I'm simply this fascinated by the sport and I'm a fan since the mid 90's (basicly is since I can walk and talk but I can't remember the early 90's so...) but the way F1 is "evolving" just feels wrong and is concerning in my opinion. If we replace (old-school) racetracks with street tracks F1 is just loosing parts of its soul and it's appeal as a racing series. Sometimes you should just stay true to your roots (could you imagine an endurance race in London? no because it would be ridiculous) I think F1 is starting to forget what it is and the inflation of the calender as well as adding new "street track" just proves to point to me.
I know this is kind of a rant but I had to get this of my chest, so thanks to everyone who made it to the end of this comment.
I partially agree, losing year by year most of the road tracks in the calendar would alienate the core fans in the medium-short run and might not be good.
Also, I think F1 should have tried to steal Long Beach to Indycar, as it's near LA and that city is more iconic than Miami or Vegas. Also, I find the track itself nice, with a trademark place (the roundabout in the First sector).
I also think all these street races bids might be a trend, just like Tilkedroms in the 2010s and the asian expansion between late 90s and early 2010s.
They have. You forgot long beach my fave earlier. Makes IndyCar look better all the time
Need vastly wider tracks
Didn’t forget.
I like street track they’re difficult and fast but getting too many is getting ridiculous. I want fat open screaming tracks like SPA and Monza
F1 problem is not having too many street circuits, it is simply trying to cram too many races into the calendar in general. The other problem with street circuits, particularly Monaco, is that they are too cramped for the sheer size of modern F1 cars that now have the same footprint as a long wheelbase Ford Transit van.
I always hate racing in the street circuits in f1 games, cause there is no margin for error (like the baku track corner 8).
These track show who's who, cause draivers have to race AND be vary of the walls.
The problem is the same as with all the other tracks - f1 doesn't have many options for strategy (like it was with refueling) and since the cars are now too reable, most races are boring, cause if something doesn't go wrong, it's always the same drivers in front
I started watching F1 in 1978. Monaco and Long Beach that year. Seen dreadful races on really poor street circuits. However, some of these street circuits are still on the Indycar list. Detroit this year was great, as was Long Beach. F1 might need to look at itself as right now, Indycar is a far superior product, racing on streets that F1 used to.
The bring tourism to the city doesn't appear to bring a lot of tourism money. Look at things like the Olympics or the World Cup. Millions to host the race, plust the cost of getting the city ready for the race against how much revenue will come to the area. I don't watch an F1 street race and think that I must visit that city. Especially if it is a dull race (like most).
Las Vegas might be the exception as F1 paid for the event itself. Liberty have pumped $240m of their own money into the project. Looking for a reutrn on investment means that general admission starts at $500. If people are willing to pay that amount, then more fool them. I'll just watch the highlights on UA-cam as the so called pinacle of motorsport couldn't even run on Friday due to a fault with the CCTV at the circuit. Indycar for me since last year
cheaper option than racetracks that's why
I don't think the street circuits are a big deal. The spectacle of them being so close to the walls and tire strategies are fun to watch as well. My issue this year was where they were put on the calendar. I feel like if they were more spread out and not in consecutive races, we wouldn't hear so much grumbling.
The calendar needs a balance of street, historic and purpose-built circuits. 20%, 50% and 30% imo. Nearly all of the new tracks have all been unimpressive Tilke street tracks so it feels really imbalanced when we're losing the other types to make way for them.
And can we just delete the track that looks like a sperm, Jeddah, please?
Australia has one of the best circuits in the world. Phillip Island.
Fast, flowy, fans and drivers alike love it..
But. Its in the middle of fucking nowhere. With no close accomodation or amenities...
It also, has 4 season an hour...
But, travelling 3 hours each way to watch a 90 min race in the rain is not fun, or appealing.
This is where I see the value in street circuits. Watch the race and go home to your warm bed via the pub/dinner etc.
🇸🇬 my country 1st night race ❤
Race coordinators now do not build new tracks or use old tracks because it is cheaper to bribe F. I. A. officials into giving them a F1 STREET CIRCUT race, than building a new track or upgrading tracks
The simple idea that F1 would even think of dropping Monza is cause for alarm. It’s Monza. FUCKING MONZA.
tbh, i wanna old 1999 calender.