I was getting $100 per night in the late '70s (which is the equivalent of $350+ per night today) - and those were 5-night house gigs that usually included food, a couple of drinks, and, of course, tips. And, of course, with a house gig, you weren't schlepping your gear all over hell every night. In the 80's I was getting $150 per night for the same. On the rare occasions where I did a one-night gig, I charged at least double. The state of the business these days is sad. It is so much more difficult for you younger folks to do what we did. Further, working 5 nights a week meant you didn't have to have a day job, and playing all those hours week in and week out for months on end gets you polished at your craft, to say the least ...
We used to play 6 nights a week every week of the year and all over the country. 8000 watts of front house and 24k in lighting. This was not unusual in 80’s and early 90’s. We didn’t grow up listening to hip hop and rap.
It's a matter of supply of gigs vs. supply of bands. When supply of bands increases there is a downward pressure of the equilibrium price the supplier of gigs needs to pay. Everyone it seems wants to be a rock star these days. Too many bands, too few venues, therefor competition for gigs brings prices down. If you have a monopoly (Taylor Swift) you can set your own price.
I think it's a balance between understanding where you stand. My old band used to practice 20+ hours a week. We had 2 setlists in rotations, both ready to go with specific features. The journey started with 100$ shows. We were never late, always ready to play, as professional as we could be, and never acted like divas, EVER. Eventually, we got a lot more! Some included accommodations, catering, etc. Eventually, I branched off doing sessions and solo gigs. Paid anything between 80$-150$ an hour. I got there by nailing my parts within 1 or 2 takes. Who do you prefer to pay, a guy that charges 30$ but takes 5 hours of your time for 1 song or a guy that takes 2 hours to nail your entire album? I am consistent both on stage or in studio. I am not even the best. I just deliver on my word. Apply yourself, aspire to be the best, work with people but be smart about it. Knowing your worth is important, but remember that we all start at the bottom. Learn from the journey.
I started turning down crappy gigs and I have much fewer gigs now because the rest of the musos around me are compliant and complacent like you say. It's not gonna change the situation in general around here if only a few of us push back. They can always get somebody to do the gig for next to nothing. The upside: After a few months of feeling weird about being free on a Saturday night I don't mind having less gigs b/c I wasn't getting much money for them even when my gig calendar was brimming. The bread and butter was always teaching, and my life always felt frantic. I have more time to compose, I have more time for students, and I can spend more time in studio and do other things and hang out with my friends instead of working on weekends. There are some exceptions also. I will play a crappy paying gig if I think it's a real opportunity. But just cranking out the old tired covers ONE MORE TIME for the same old people & with the same old people..... Nope.
The worst part is that some of my buddies who I used to used to do the cheap gigs with have kinda cut me off, (as I knew they would)... So..... we can't be friends unless I do cheap gigs with you? Well.... that's hardly a good basis for friendship.
Yep. I kept saying that my gigging just about paid for itself - if you include the upkeep of the instrument and gas and food and stuff on the road. Then I started being more choosy about my work and have been doing less, but really satisfying, playing AND I really haven't lost much money because I spend so much less on expenses. I now apply the "Music Money Mates" rule. The gig has to be good in at least two of these, or one if it is really incredibly good.
To me the money is a bonus but that's it. I jam it out with other guys whenever I can and take gigs whenever I can just because I love doing it. I'm getting paid for what I would be doing recreationally. All is good! Golf would be a chore, gigging isn't.
A giant ship engine failed. The ship’s owners tried one expert after another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine. Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was young. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom. Two of the ship’s owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed! A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand dollars. “What?!” the owners exclaimed. “He hardly did anything!” So they wrote the old man a note saying, “Please send us an itemized bill.” The man sent a bill that read: Tapping with a hammer………………….. $ 2.00 Knowing where to tap…………………….. $ 9,998.00
Great story but I don't see how it addresses the problem Terence is referring to. If there were 50 local old guys or gals like this and they all knew exactly where to tap, they wouldn't be able to charge 10K for this gig because one of them would undercut then the next one and pretty soon all the out of work old guys would be begging the ship people to let them demo their sklls for free.
@@ColleenKitchen well there in lies the problem doesnt it.... not everybody has unique skills, and some of those people are not ready to stop taking $100 gigs because they are mediocre in an oversaturated market, not offering anything of value... this video is perhaps not for those people, those people need to work on developing skills, experties, and strategies that offer value, like the guy in the ship analogy above
Love it! 1. 60% Delivery. If you feel undervalued, you will do less work and give less effort - around 60% of your ability. This starts a cycle of undervalued/underachieved. 2. Market Depreciation: By doing cheap gigs, the amount paid to you and other musicians will similarly lower. 3. It determines your value to others. Like Apple, the more you charge, the more you are perceived to be worth. 4. Compliance and complacency: we accept the status quo we make for ourselves. 5. You feel less valuable. And therefore you become less valuable (see #1).
I have a Saturday night residence at a very old, rather legendary bar in my city. 5 musicians play for $500 total and 5 drink tickets each for two 50 minute sets. I get email transferred my $100 on Thursday, 5 days later and, numerology aside, frankly I’m happy to have it. I wish we were making more, but it’s a steady, reliable pay day doing what I love that helps supplement my income, and since I’m used to getting paid 0$ for playing originals, it’s nice to at least have my talent valued to a certain extent even for playing mostly covers. My father was a career musician, he played 5/6 nights a week in the 70s/80s making more than I make at my unionized job now, but those days are gone. Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking $100 for a gig as long as they’re not blatantly taking advantage of the artist with overly long set times and a refusal to treat them to complimentary drinks or food.
That is not a bad gig.. It is relatively short.. steady.. and after a while you build a repertoire of songs that make rehearsals less important.. but I am big on regular rehearsals.. at least two hours a week regardless..
It’s a real issue. I don’t accept gigs like this unless there’s no rehearsal and they are within 30 minute drive. The main issue is there will always be bands, inexperienced, unqualified, etc, who will play for less, which completely undermines the business.
that feeds itself too, b/c the venues think *ALL* local bands aren't worth more than that, when in fact the only bands they know are the ones who play for that kind of $$
I don't know. If an unexperienced and unqualified band, with less talent, steal my Place in music business Just because they ask less Money, the problem to solve Is another than money
Old Man, hey! I started playing as a 5 year old, took lessons studied and practiced. Joined a band at 12 and did some school related functions for a year then booked my first gig at 13 for $20 at a social group mixer, they paid the band $80. We had been practicing together for over a year never intending to gig. It was like school where we got some experience. It wasn’t an adult gig or a club where men made their living.
My thoughts on this video: I like this video and I dig Terence Fisher and how he conveys his points. I don’t mean to start any negativity with presenting my thoughts, I just wanted to contribute and share how I see the points made. Making a living with music is not quick or easy. There is a lot of work involved in building your brand, making connection, expanding your reach, and understanding the specifics of the market you are in. This is all before you even touch your instrument! The description given for the $100 gig is (metaphor of a gig that under minds your value): - 2 weeks from now - 1 rehearsal - 2 to 3 day lead time before the rehearsal - Set list 30 songs, know 10 to 12, sort of heard at least 3 or 4 others (because you’ve played so long) - Need to practice or shed 20 songs - Average it takes 20 minutes to shed a song, to at least get through it - 20min x 20 songs = 6 ½ hours round down to 6 hours - 2 hour rehearsal = 8 hours - 4 hour gig = 12 hours - Drive time (average drive time 15 minutes) = 15 x 4 = 1 = 13 hours - Minimum wage For me, I only run into the above described gig conditions maybe 2 times a year. That’s perhaps 4% of the number of gigs I do. There are other factors related to taking these kind of gigs. Maybe I just like playing with all those musicians and we never get a chance to play together. Maybe I like playing that specific music but on regular gigs that specific music is never called for. Maybe the gig and rehearsal are so close to another gig that I already have that day, it just makes sense to do the gig because of quantity of work in a given day. 5 reasons to stop doing gigs like the above 1. 60 percent delivery phenomenon = poor work ethics and poor mind set a. I believe that every gig should be treated as an opportunity to present your product in the best light possible b. Work ethic shouldn’t be dependant exclusively on money. c. If you feel that a gig is not worthy of your time, I do agree that you should say no! 2. Market depreciation - set market value for yourself and for other musicians a. This completely avoids the challenge of having a market that both includes professions (people that make money to pay bills via gigs) and others (people that do music for fun and don’t care about making money) b. Also, the action of refusing $100 doesn’t set the market value, the market sets its value. c. If other musicians charge more, perhaps they need to tell the client the benefits of their product and how it may differ from the $100 musician/band 3. Determines your value to others - price that you charge is a huge determining factor on how people see you (Apple as an example) a. I agree with this point, however, to me it doesn’t peel the onion enough to explain why Apple can charge way more then other companies with similar products. Apple has brand recognition which it obtained over decades of hard work. They have influenced the market to a point where the market is willing to pay the prices they set because they are a mainstream product. There are main stream musicians. I wouldn’t compare myself to mainstream musicians and wouldn’t model my marketing strategy to main stream musicians. 4. Compliance and complacency - this is how it is a. A small business owner or trades person doesn’t base pricing on what happened in the first few years and leaves the pricing there. There is an evolution of how pricing is set depending on personal life developments (starting family, purchasing car, buying better or more equipment, etc.), experience gained, and connections made within the industry 5. You yourself start to feel less valuable - don’t feel appreciated a. This has more to do with attitude in my opinion and finding ways to stay positive. As a musician I have found that I need to realize that not everything is positive. Sometimes I feel lonely, sometimes the conditions of a gig before hitting the stage are frustrating, sometimes the length of time to get paid is annoying. I had to find a way to deal with these negative emotions and conditions. However, I have always put forth my best effort regardless of how much a gig paid. Do I feel better when a gig pays $400 vs $100? Sure I do, but do I use the excuse of a gig paying $100 to justify a lack of effort? Never, it totally devalues you and you never know who will sit in the audience of your $100 gig that might give you a higher paying gig.
Klaus Anselm Very good points. I have never heard of the 60 percent delivery phenomenon, and I think you are correct that it’s about work ethic. I have heard of the economic law of supply and demand which affects how the market sets the price. To charge higher you have to have established brand recognition or differentiated your service/product in some way ... either superior quality or specialized ... and somebody has to be willing to pay for that in order for you to get the higher pay.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. I also like to add "know your audience". If people don't care that you can read the Real Book and play all the jazz standards, and prefer you to play "Brown Eyed Girl", then that's the gig! Be happy to get it. If you get so busy that you can turn down gigs and only take high paying ones, good for you! If not, then keep playing and consider other options financially. Just because you are a musician doesn't mean that's ALL YOU DO! - thank you.
market depreciation is really a thing. My prof tells me to aim for 200€ an hour ideally or at the very least 200€ per gig plus travel costs and a little more when I am supposed to bring my own gear. And thats really the price where I live. At least 200€ per gig and person and for many bands quite a bit more (my prof goes for 200€ an hour as I said). If some bands startet playing for 100€ per gig and played okay as well, people would hire those bands and not the ones that charge 200€. So please do every musician in your area a favor and dont lower the normal price for live music. Besides.. when I busk I get 30+€ an hour. In 3 hours I have easily 100€. Thats playing the songs I want to play, including a lot of my own songs. Thats also no/hardly any travel time. At the very least it doesnt make any sense, even for me, and I am still studying, to take 100€ gigs that I have to learn some songs for. If I know everything and its in a local bar and I can also put up a tip jar - its okay. But if its a wedding gig, I have to learn a ton of songs they wished for, I have to drive there and bring my own gear, there is no fucking way I am going to do it for 100€. As he said in the video- it adds up to maybe 13 hours or something (although most of the time you are there for much longer than 3 hours) and in 13 hours I would have made about 400€ with busking. It depends after all: if there is a small festival where I play exclusively my own songs I am willing to do it for free and spend dozens of hours, practicing those songs. But if its just cover songs it should make me at least nearly what I would get when busking.
As a bassist, I can generally look at the guitarists fretting hand and know the chord and lock with the drummer even with songs I never heard. That's kind of fun, but if a song is well known and demands an exact bass part, well then it's not gonna work. Hard one bar stops are tough too, but a lot of players telegraph those. Especially the ones that know you're unfamiliar with that piece and help you. I've snuck a finger count, like 4 fingers, to subtly clue another player the next chord is the IV chord, just turn a little so the audience doesn't see it. If you're gonna freelance as opposed to only play in one band that rehearses, you're going to have to face these challenges.
I think the main point here is you have to count the costs. Count up the assets and the deficits to see if it is worth your time. If the gig pays $100 and you spend $200 in gas, then the $ might not be right for you. If the gig pays nothing, but gives you the exposure you need, then maybe the $0 works for you. Count the costs people...tangible and intangible. #DavidsHouse
Exactly. It's simple mathemathics. Gian Minus costs. If I Can live with It it's ok. If not, something must be changed. Or I'm doing the wrong job, or my fare is too low.
Some very good points for sure. As a working bassist I have also done this math. For $100 there’s no rehearsal, tunes I already know and have played a million times. There are exceptions to every rule, IMO, but I get where you’re coming from. For sure.
Haha yeah, I doubt many musicians are spending 12+ hours on a $100 gig XD Most musicians are lucky to even be offered a single gig that pays $100... This video is some click bate garbage :/
You have to evaluate each gig based on money, music, and the hang. Aim for 2 out of 3. If the gig has a great bunch of musicians I love to hang out with and playing super fun music, I don't mind playing it for cheap or free. Alternatively, if it's great money and great music, I don't mind if I don't really get along with the other players. Just keep my head down and have fun playing. Finally, if it's a great hang and great money, I'll happily fake my way through a gig, even if the music isn't really very interesting to me. Obviously, if it's all three, then it's a gig to hang onto forever.
in theory this guy makes so0me sense but in the real world most cannot follow his advice unless they want to quit playing frequently or even much at all. the real world usually doesn't work out like this preacher is preaching. if your really valuable as a player, good stage look and very professional to work and have a good attitude you will be more likely to get calls and in a better position to get more money but the average musician that shows up in cargo shorts with a pedestrian stage look, not prepared musically and doesn't carry a professional attitude will usually not be worth more than the lowest amount. you become "WORTH MORE"...when you "ARE MORE". PERIOD.
Your argument is valid to a point. Every time I take the stage, whether it be a jam session or (home) church session where I have no expectation of compensation or if I am lead, solo or side musician in a paid gig, I am seeking a new level in my musicianship, stage personna and overall professionalism. However, the customer assigns no greater value to your work than you do. I am sure Terence Fisher is not saying to not even answer your phone for less than a number that represents your honest assessment of your work. As I said, for my home church I neither request nor expect compensation. It is a service of one body member to the rest of the body. On the other hand, if another church asks me to do something, I am obligated to ask for a fee, even a nominal "charity" fee. Otherwise, I am treated worse in the church than I am in the concert. I came to this the hard way. I used to play as a guest artist at churches and church-related events on the same basis as my home church. I started to notice envelopes being passed to keyboardist/pianists, drummers, bass/lead guitarists, and sometimes lead vocalists. Very seldom (i.e., NEVER) would they wander over to the guy with the two saxophones, bongos and tumbadoras, and bag of hand percussion instruments with anything more than a, "Wow! You are talented!", which while very much appreciated is nowhere near as encouraging as the MATERIAL + VERBAL commentary on my work that was given to these others. I felt like I was less appreciated. In fact I was. Then there is how much outside churches even respect free talent that is not one of their own. I performed at one church-related picnic and one of the guests not only shouted me down on the setup for an upcoming song. He actually got up and turned the amp off. That was the end of my free church and church-related tour. If this is how "Christian" venue operators (not all by any means) operate, what can I possibly expect from completely "secular" venue operators? These have no divine obligation to respect and honor which they may disregard. They have no ethics code to which they are obligated. They are only driven by whether their bottom line is black or red. If I show up for the "$100 gig" and give my best, at what point do I expect that operator to increase my compensation? At what point does the operator see me as something truly valuable? How did you treat that paramour that demanded nothing but a modicum of time and attention, but gave you everything you did or might have requested? On the other hand, how did you treat that paramour that demanded more of you than any other had? That one is probably sitting right beside you sharing a home, life and destiny. I may play less, maybe not at all for a while, but when I do, I will know that the operator values and respects what I do. I will feel better for doing it, and it will show up in my performance. I can also expect that the quality of the venues I play will improve. When a heckler starts in on a paid featured artist, the price of admission and the venue operator's investment will behoove the operator to end the show for the heckler, not the artist.
You’d be right in an ideal world where music and the value of musicians are recognized…but unfortunately the real world is different😅 been doing this for a while and my dad’s a musician as well. The point is that pubs/restaurants don’t have or don’t want to spend much money on live music so it’s either you accept a “100$ gig” or another musician comes and gets it instead of you. The worst ones are those who willingly go to play for free because they harm the whole industry, even if sometimes they’re not even pros, just amateurs. But in general live music only offers 2 kinds of possibilities: “100$ gigs” or big stages with a huge budget, which unfortunately aren’t easily accessible to common musicians. Only 1% of us makes it to those levels so it is what it is
I'm from new york city.. if my band makes $100 a head that means the venue or buyer is paying about $1,100 most venues in the city won't pay that much for any band unless they have a great draw over +500 to +1000 people so few of the known bands in the city can do this but not all the venues capitalize on this by opening places where musicians can play but they have to basically get the club paid first then they have some room to negotiate how much they get. now as a hired musician performing at a wedding or corporate gig it's easy to earn much more than $100 but the problem with those gigs is that they often pay late and require a w9 or to send an invoice and the back and forward with the people in charge of getting you paid on time. (almost always impossible) my approach is this i try to build relationships with people that i work with and i don't take random gigs my friends ask me to do because what i see is if the regular guy they get can't do it they will definitely try to undercut whoever comes in as a substitute.. the worst experience i've had was the entertainment company paid this wedding band like 1/3 of what the people organized the wedding put up and they stole the rest. we only found out when the manager reached out to the couple after a few weeks and found out what we should've gotten it was infuriating for everybody
like someone else pointed out on this thread. If it's close and no rehearsal required then $100 is not bad. I played a gig yesterday for $80. One hour, no rehearsal, show up and read. Took just over 30 minutes to get there. Easy. If it's a case of a four hour gig, three rehearsals for the week leading up to the gig and your pay is $100 plus snacks then no that's not worth it. I used to play with a cover band years ago that had a ton of potential for corporate gigs but the band leader was doing it "just for fun". We played one of the Livermore wineries on Labor Day. four hour gig, we brought all the sound and an engineer. With travel, setup, gig, and tear down it became an eight hour day. How are these numbers? 7 piece band, eight hour day, pay was a case of wine and $100. I don't drink. It was outside in 100 degree heat and no water or food provided either. The caterer understood and offered us food but when I asked the band leader if there was water for us he said "um, we're getting some wine later". There are so many out there who are doing it "for the love of music" and the sad part is they look down on the rest of us for expecting to get paid.
I do not Agree. You go and read. This should be called a performance? No, this is grinta work, and you deserve less than 100$. Infact, it's a job you can do any time and anywhere. But if you prepare something beautiful,.a show, a well-considered list of 30 songs, well played, with riffs played all together, with passione ext, you cannot go for 100$
@@RanieriDiBiagio I'm bringing 30 years of training and experience to the gig. To be able to show up, sight read charts for an hour or more set, groove, and support the band is a skill long developed and should be valued. I know guys who won't leave the house for less than $500 and guess what? They get those quality gigs. None of us learned how to play at this level overnight and for those of us who have spent decades developing our craft should value what we do.
@@mckaigg totally Agree, but you we're Just out of focus. The guy in the video talks about a simple addition : rehersal's hours+study's hours+drive to the pub+concert and at the end he divides. The fact you can read the music and you can perform Just Reading at First sight Is because you are a great musician and you dedicated your Life to this professions, and for that you should deserve Money. But in music there's not only profession, the mail thing is passion. For this reason my answer to you. You go and give others a bit of your knowledge. It's different from preparing a special repertoire, with a scene behind you Ext Ext
I'm trying to transition to higher paying gigs which will involve developing a tighter act: broadening my songbook, getting material tight, press kit, etc. Something that really resonated with me though on this video was that your price point value determines your psychological value towards the gig. I've gotten a few well paying gigs ($300 and up) in the past three months. Psychologically I was up in spirit and preparedness for those gigs as opposed to my lower paid one's. It's true it is a self fulfilling cycle that you can get stuck in.
Terence, i agree 100% with your comments. I am a pro drummer and i remember making $100 a gig back in the 80's! the wage has not gone up because Musicians under value themselves, there are always crappy bands that will take the low pay and Club owners are cheap and dont care about band quality they care about food and alcohol sales! If a crappy cheap band brings in their friends and their friends spend money they are happy. It's always about money and never about the music sadly!! Where i live in Ontario the music scene is especially bad!
All Truth Bro! Excellent Sir! I’m 2 years new to TX and From my perspective this is a epidemic here. It’s just as stated in your vid. The 💩 undermines advanced working pr players like me. What really kills me is that people/ the customer/ church/ contracting party goes with the lowest price. People still don’t get that you get what you pay for
Bottom line is younger generation does not dig live music. They’re rather go see some clown DJ. Until that changes gigs will be few and far between. Less demand less money.
It's the Bar/Club owners who don't want to pay ... It's the DUI/DWI laws that prevent many people from going out to those clubs ... It's the nature and attitude of a lot of people going to bars/clubs who create violence ... Yes, it's also the DJ's who work the room cheap ... It's also the Musician with bad attitudes and drug/alcohol problems ... Everyone loves live Music ... everyones attitudes/behavour is shit.
Brian Roberts I’m in Canada and what was very healthy scene is now dead. All the bands that do play are all older guys like myself. I have a place in Englewood Florida and there seems to be a lot of live entertainment. All one nighters though.
Great insights. This is the exact same thing that's talked about among photographers. But the insights you're bringing are things I've never heard discussed among photographers at the same level of organization and depth that you're doing here.
You make some really good points, and the stagnation of working musician's wages is a big problem. But at the end of the day, if I didn't take low money gigs, I wouldn't get to play any gigs. Americana singer/songwriter here, and for me in my area (NW Indiana) a 4-man band getting $100 a man is an above-average payday. If I'm doing a full band gig or a duo with a lead guitarist, chances are I'm only taking home $75-80 for the show. If I do a 3 hour solo acoustic set of mostly covers I can get away with charging around $120, but those kinda sets absolute death. But when I'm going about booking gigs, and when I actually get a response from a venue, if I'm asking for anything above my standard rate I just don't hear back from them. Am I supposed to just sit at home, not booked and not paid, satisfied that I'm not settling for less than I'm worth? This really feels like a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.
Totally agree with all this. The only exception is that I will occasionally do cheaper gigs for old friends, or people who helped me get my career started
I get the sentiment, and I agree with it, but this is the real world. Most of the musicians I've met, and most of the opportunities that have come my way were there because I took $100 gigs. Also most musicians have an inflated view of their own value. When I was coming up, I was "the man", but once I started touring the world, I realized that there are a million guys that are "the man". I was just one of them. You need to swallow your pride and take those gigs, otherwise people won't hear about you nor will you keep getting calls.
Eric Grossman for real. A lot of talented musicians gonna come out of music school expecting to get paid 300-500 per gig will fail to level up because they’re sitting on the couch while other people are getting out there and playing chess and not checkers.
Jamming and gigging is fun for it's own sake. Most people pay for recreation. Be thankful you're getting paid to play. How many golfers can say the same?
There is a difference between taking low or no paying gigs to get your foot in the door vs. being a player with years of experience settling for $100 gigs. To be honest 10 years ago, I didn't mind it but after inflation, people with high expectations, practice time, prep time, rehearsal time, driving, setup time, parking fees, you quickly realize you are making less than minimum wage.
I completely agree with this gentleman's view point. I perform in a Top Notch 10 piece tribute band with full sound system and light show all state of the art. Collectively we have at least 325 years of music education, knowledge and experience on stage. Most non musician people have NO idea what it takes to perform at a high level in any band let alone a tribute band. Many. many times people offer us $500 for a gig and they think that is ok. I try to explain to the customers the amount of skill, production costs and entertainment value we bring to there venue of event. They dont get it. They think we just do this as a hobby and have not spent most of our adult lives perfecting the skill to play music as I said at a very high level. But they will accept paying a plumber or electrician $125 to $200 per hour to install and or repair something in their home. Granted the plumber or electrician deserves the money for their skill and experience so why doesn't the pro musician or even semi pro musician deserve the same respect and fee? My point here is the general public now in 2019 doesn't respect high quality musicians and bands the same way they do for other trades and skills. In the 70's a good musician could make easily $250-$400 per night on the weekends for a club gig or wedding gig. Now you're lucky to get $50 for the same quality of music at most local clubs. Sorry for the rant but this is reality for most local acts and I don't mean HACKS I mean solid top notch excellent players and bands. But the public they will plop down $250 per ticket to see many so called Pro acts that are lip syncing live or just plain suck. Peace Out!
The difference is there are only so many electricians. Musicians, even good ones, are a "dime a dozen". Economics "Supply and Demand" is relevant. There is only one "George Strait" and one "Beyonce" but there are myriads of nameless others. You must also consider that many venues can only offer what they think they can afford after their overhead is considered.
Answers 1, 2, 3, and 5 No. Ans. 4. Yes. (Compliance & Complacency). Selling yourself short means nothing.There are too many mathmatical variables on both sides to be certain. Owner expenditures vs. Band indiv. member situational expenditures. Ex. The most generous playing situations never stayed in business long enough to continue.
This is excellent advice for any professional. Engineer, lawyer, physician, musician, etc. In bad times the temptation is to compete on price with one’s competitors. Don’t do it. In the short term it may hurt, but in the long term it always places you and your craft in a well respected position. People who are respected get hired.
Amen!!! :) Wow, this is huge!! This is a really really insightful and incredible video! You really made me stop and think a whole lot and I really appreciate you reminding us about all this. I am realizing lately that I suuuuper undervalue myself as a musician and singer. I love how you said accepting little money for gigs makes other PERCEIVE you as not valuable. Wow, so true! But also, not charging much makes you perceive YOURSELF as not valuable. What a huge and important concept. I will probably have to watch this a few times for it to really sink in, hahaha. Thank you for again!
Well well, on the mainland money was never an issue. When I moved here to Hawaii, unless you’re a solo musician you’re lucky to get $100 for the entire band or work for tips. You forgot the most important issue- I’m bringing in a $7,000 PA system in, 2k in lights, a $5,000 Les Paul Custom, $1,800 Helix floor effects and $2,300 Dr. Z amp. Add that up, what would the daily rate for you to rent that equipment? I quit doing gigs, simply a waste of time. Most clubs, parties, venues rather hire a DJ. Thank God I got an education and a wonderful career for music cannot be depended upon.
If you play in an area where the bars only pay a certain amount, you can either play, AND ENJOY playing and showing your skills to an audience, or sit home. Most bands start at 100 a man at a certain bar, if over the course of X amount of gigs you are attracting more and more people, the bar makes more, you can ask for more. It's just how it works. Everything Terence has said is true BUT if you follow his advise, your going to do a lot of playing at home instead of having fun entertaining people. I play music for fun and to show off my skills. If you only play music to make money.....well good luck.
Everything Terence says makes sense, but it's also down to the specifics of your level of playing, your connections, the instrument you are playing, the supply and demand (of bands, gigs, musicians) in your area. It's easy to say "don't play low paying gigs", but most of the time the choice you have is not "high paying gigs" vs "low paying gigs". It's more like "low paying gigs" or "no gigs".
❤ This is true. When I was in college taking a web design course my professor warned us all not to do a $100 dollar website. For all the same reasons you just stated. It's the same with my job as a network engineer. It's difficult, stressful. Yet I was over a barrel and had to work cheap. I felt horrible about myself. I also knew that I was helping to kill the market for my colleagues. Now when I'm asked what I want in terms of salary, I don't lowball it. I ask for a decent wage. That makes my employer value me more. It also puts a cushion between me and imminent poverty. Thank you for the great video!
This is all environmentally dependent. In my town, I do predominantly Gospel music. $100 gigs with no rehearsal (because most churches do the same songs) will actually keep the bills paid if you already have an anchor Gig. I just say. Play with people you love. and Do what makes you happy, cause that pays in terms of health!
great points here- more musicians should take this advice...the more time, effort, and experience you have, the more money you should be able to command (which in turn, benefits other musicians as well)...i also recommend coming up with a "base-line" pay that you can negotiate from to still make a solid paycheck from the gig- an amount that provides wiggle-room to secure a gig without it becoming a wash for you...
What planet is this where club owners are so freely spending money on entertainment? If you have a popular act with a guaranteed local draw, not settling for peanuts might work fine and everyone will pay the rate. Even in a big city, however, there are only so many acts that catch a real following. They are obviously good, entertaining and financially worth the rate as they draw a crowd and don't depend on club regulars. It's still true that not too many people go out on a Tuesday when they have to work at 8:00 the next morning.
Same problems in Europe. 1) you can make a calculation and obviously decide not to play for 100$ (too many expenses). 2) you can ignore it and play for less or for free (your business if you can live or not with that Money). 3) UNDERSTAND THE REAL PROBLEM : people do not require good music anymore and don't have much money to see gigs every week. If clients seem not to look for good music, your music will be paid less and less and less. In addition, you Will have to face other countries' musicians, Who play for less Money and with a big smile on their face. There are musicians, Who come from Africa or East Europe, Who play for music agencies for less than 60$ per gig. So, you, as a musician, can Say "no", but the fact Is that world will go on without you. So, if we really want to save musicians and good music, there has to be a law that helps us more, and people should begin to listen to good music again...very tricky mission
Add to all this the old Economics reality of "supply and demand". Music is a recreational activity and regular "musicians" are resultedly "a dime a dozen". Taylor Swift and Brad Paisley are "price setters", everyone else are "price takers".
This video could be really applied to the construction industry. When i was in it i worked for less than $100 a day most were at the exact $100 mark i made a joke about it the other day to a friend who is still in the construction industry and he said they at least get $200 now so at least in the last 10 years they doubled down. This is a great viewpoint and great video awesome job Terence!
Well said. I had to stop doing those gigs as well. I don't even take the gig unless there is something that will benefit me on the other end of getting paid such a low amount. I have been playing for over 35+ years and I value my time more than that 100 dollars that will be gone in an instant. Great info.
So one thing that musicians like to leave out when they are bitching about not getting paid much from gigs is are they actually able to sell enough tickets to warrant their particular pay. So if a band is wanting to leave with each member being paid at minimum $100 each, can that band sell enough tickets for that. If the answer is no, then they should expect not to get paid that much. As a band, you are only worth your ticket sales to that venue. Obviously, if you are just a gun for hire (like what most of the points in this video are about) then it's not your job to bring people and sell tickets. So if you want more money as that hired gun, then you should be networking and making friends with bigger bands that have larger draws who can afford to pay you more of what you're worth
@@jimcrew5348 That's great that you and your band are in a much better spot and being able to play better gigs. Especially gigs that don't require you to bring people. And in those I know you're able to make much more. That's also the thing, if you are an average or below average band, then you get paid accordingly. And yeah, I wholeheartedly don't expect random people to show up and pay a cover to see a band they never heard of. So it's up to the band to promote accordingly and get their own people there at the show. So if the band can't bring in their own people then they shouldn't be paid. The days of people just showing up to random local shows are over.
I don't sell tickets. It's a trap. I'll let ppl know what I'm doing, post on social media, and invite ppl; but I stop short at selling tickets. It's a trap!
@@robertantonvlogs One should never pay to play. And some of those pre-sale ticket venues can be scams. So whether you sell tickets in advance or not, the point is you're only worth how many people paid to get in and/or spent money at the bar.
@@robertantonvlogs If the venue is demanding you sell tickets in order to play there, yes, that's BS. But I know when we're playing in the UK, we depend on advance ticket sales to see how the venue is going to work out. If sales haven't been good enough two weeks before the show, we know we have to really work that area to boost sales (targeted FB ads, personal appearances, etc.) Plus, when people buy tickets, they generally show up no matter what - bad weather, traffic, etc. It's nice to know going in that you'll have a good turnout.
great topic. even today I got into a sad argue with a friend musician about this..and unfortunately sometimes there just no way of changing someone's mind.
Except it's not even close to the truth. The truth is most musicians would be stoked to even be offered $100, and most people who play $100 gigs for money, are not spending 12+ hours on the gig....
@@dijonjohn1011 You looking at just a gig it self I am talking about when you have to use $100 to go to five rehearsals and plus the gig that is not enough money this video is nothing but the truth because a lot of musicians get underpaid and put in triple the work no matter how many hours
I think the trick is to be so good that you're turning down gigs because you're already too busy gigging. I have the feeling that a lot of musicians want to perform for people before they can really play well. The audience can tell the difference, and if you can play, and perform for enough people, you can get that following that enables you to charge more. That said, I agree with everything you said. I would just supplement it by adding that musicians need to pay their dues in the shed and by maybe taking a few gigs for less than they'd like in the very beginning. It's better to take a gig than to sit on the couch wondering why bars won't pay you more.
My solution: I do solo gigs, so I will continue to do $100 gigs - that's the minimum amount that I'll leave the house for. No rehearsal needed, no bandmates to pay and I make well over minimum wage.
Keep on goin and you will make 100$ gigs in ten years ! Imagine, you do the job of 5 persons ! You should charge, at least, 5 times 100$ !! MY SOLUTION !!
@@alexisarbour When I say "solo gig", I mean that I don't play with other musicians, I do it all myself. Nobody to share money with. Low overhead. Congrats on watching the video, but it does not apply to every musician. I also said that 100 bucks is " the minimum amount that I'll leave the house for", which means that most of my gigs are for MORE than $100, but thanks for playing.
A friend that was doing no-pay gigs for musical theater tried to bring me into that, no pay, no way. He wouldn't hear it when I told him he was hurting himself and those that he took the jobs from. Said it would give us exposure that we needed. What BS. With youtube we all have worldwide exposure. I have business cards with my youtube music channel on them. Plenty of exposure there.
I used to have an experience doing gigs while my dad was still alive back then. Yes, we played some rock and roll songs, classic love songs, and The Beatles every Saturday evening in a lounge hotel. But, we ended up getting paid from $50 to $100 maximum. Just imagine, a nice 5 star hotel yet the management paid us $50 to $100 every Saturday. That's when I realized: It's great doing a gig for people whether outdoors or indoors but NEVER expect a high pay from an establishment. Then (decades later), I have this churchmate of mine, a teenager, said, "I want to do gigs for restaurants or bars! I want to play music!". I can see his enthusiasm but at the same time, I gave him a dose of reality (not to discourage him but to advice him a reality check). And this is exactly what I told this guy: "It's great doing a gig for people whether outdoors or indoors but NEVER expect a high pay from an establishment." He took my advice seriously and he focused himself more on his studies yet I told him, "But don't stop playing music that you love. Keep playing!"
I get that this 100$ gig thing is a metaphor. But it does not even come to close to what my band makes. We generally make maybe 20-50$ per gig. Mainly because we live in Upstate NY where most of the promoters are greedy with there money. The problem with wanting to except more cash or asking for more money is that you will not be booked any shows unless you comply with these promoter's terms. Which is to get paid like shit. It's hard because as a Musician who has been playing shows for years I do not know what to do to get paid properly.
I work in and out of O.C. Ca.All club managers care about is your following. HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN YOU BRING IN. Dosen't matter how good you are are how much time you put into preparation. That,is the bottom line.
Coming in way late... well, first, thank you for being an adult. Too many YT's undermine their credibility by dressing like a kid, talking like a kid, stupid hats, etc. I'm not talking about acting white, I'm talking about being a grown-up and being credible. I'm an old man now and it really bothers me when some 20 or even 30-something chats me up like I'm his peer, his homeboy from around the way. I am, hopefully, never too old to learn but, if you want to teach me something, position yourself from a place of reasoned authority, which you have done without abandoning who you are in exchange. Thank you for not wearing a stupid hat. Twenty minutes per song? I salute you, sir. I was constantly pulling al-nighters. I paid sessions people $100 back in 1985 to learn two songs. Two EASY songs. To think this still goes on today and, 30 songs? C’mon. Stop, now. Beyond that, I feel like maybe you've been trolling me for 30 years because you've reiterated things I've been saying for decades. Mr. Fisher, if you hang around people who treat you as if you’re nothing, sooner or later you yourself will begin to believe it. I've dealt mostly with the black church, which routinely exploits people who serve in music ministry. Paradoxically, music ministry is THE unparalleled economic engine for the black church. Yet there is no parity, no profit sharing. Our tradition creates an infinite number of pageants: Women’s Day and Usher’s Annual Day, annual celebrations of the church itself. The pastor is routinely feted on his anniversary and often lavished with financial gifts, offerings collected at a service or even a week or, in cases I’ve known, a MONTH of services. Services powered by music ministry carried out by volunteer choirs and musicians who rely heavily on the one or two paid professional or semi-professional musicians who are almost always burdened by extra events they never contracted for and who are almost never similarly rewarded and who enjoy no royalty percentage from this income, forcing them into side hustles in clubs or day jobs. Most musicians I knew were broke all the time, desperate for that hundred bucks. Or they were most certainly tired all the time, fighting with the wife or husband all the time, because of the stress imposed by their service to this ministry. Besides this being unbiblical (1 Chronicles 9:33), it certainly is unethical, which places the church out of fellowship with Christ and disturbs its communion with the Holy Spirit. I enjoy your work, Mr. Fisher, and appreciate your contribution.
I agree with everything this guy says! However the reality is, at least in the market I'm in, is venues cannot afford to pay more! The bars are either not large enough to hold enough people to be able to turn a profit while paying more than $100 per person or they cannot charge enough because of the local economy. And let's face it there is always going to be that group that will play for beer and "exposure"!
yes jerry...this guy doesnt get it.... you wont play for 100...someone else will..... just never quit your day job.... we all starve at this business...so.... can this guy show me gigs i;ll get 200 right now....what a joke
Great video and great points. However, I think being selective in which gigs you accept is the key. Just accepting gigs for $100 to play some awful music that's been played a thousand times may not be worth it. But if you are playing original music that soothes your soul you may want to accept them in order to pay a bill or two. $100 will pay my cellphone bill. Two $100 gigs will pay my cell bill and my car insurance for the month. So I take this advice to heart but I also take it with a grain of salt. I'd much rather play two $100 gigs in a month rather than work some menial job. Yes, I AM worth waaaaayy more than $100 per gig. My value is at least 10 times that. But every now and then you may have to take those kinds of gigs to make ends meet. I also think it has to do with the market you live in. If you live in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta etc... There will probably be more opportunities for higher paying gigs than if you live Jackson, Mississippi or Butte, Montana. With that said, I've also made the decision to NOT accept every $100 gig that comes my way. Lately I've been turning down a lot of those gigs. Good video Terence Fisher... Thanks for the reminder!
answer: 1. 3:34 60% delivery 2. 4:15 market depreciation : to fight market depreciation 3. 5:31 it determines your value 4. 6:35 compliance and complacency 5. 7:20 you start to feel less valuable
This was my policy about my work as a real estate agent. I knew how much effort I was going to put into marketing a property. I knew what my company would do to give listings the widest possible exposure. I knew that after procuring a ready, willing and able buyer that I would continue to service the transaction to closing. This was during the late 90s and into the 2000s. I always asked for 7% after my listing presentation that would show all that they were getting for their money. I was regularly recognized for procuring the most such listings each region in my quarter. This was during the period when Foxton's was touting their 2% listing commission rate. Foxton's was heavily capitalized and their salespersons were salaried employees versus the rest of the industry, nearly all of which employed their salespersons as independent contractors, sharing sales commissions on their work with their brokers. My manager at the time kept telling us to not sweat the threat. He explained that a brokerage breaks even operating with an average 5% commission. This was without the amount of investment in marketing that our company gave. Eventually, we began to love when Foxton's got a listing, because when the listing expired, the sellers almost always turned to us or brokerages similar to us. One major difference was the quantity and quality of service. Just a few, less than five years later, I was at a different company, and received an email from my manager at the former brokerage. It included a picture of a flat-bed tow truck fully loaded with the green and yellow Cooper Minis that were Foxton's trademark being hauled off to bankruptcy auction. A quality venue who wants to grow their clientele will recognize the correlation between the quality of entertainer and the quality and quantity of venue patrons. They will already know that one gets what one pays for and will be ready to pay for what they want. Yes, they will try to get it at the lowest price possible, but they will not let what they know to be higher quality entertainment go down the street to their competitor and grow that business. Did I take listings at less than 7%? Yes. Did I take some at 6%, my brokerage's standard minimum? Yes. Did I take some at less than 6% with my manager's approval? Kicking and screaming, and rarely, yes. However, what would I get if I joined the chorus singing, "I'll Do It For Less!", and started at 5% as so many of my competitors did? It was not always easy, but I knew what my services were worth. By the way, low priced properties were listed at a flat fee to ensure that the transaction would be worth the while of agents who would bring a buyer. In the big picture, I was not only placing a high value on my work, but on my competitors as well.
I remember reading about Buck Owens and Merle Haggard making 50$ a night in 1962 at their first gigs in Bakersfield. I'm like, that's $400 bucks in today's money!
In today's world most Bars can't afford to hire a band at todays reasonable prices, I started playing bars in 1964 and actually played a gig with Buck Owens in San Leandro, Calif. and he paid me $ 100.00 for 3 hours, that same bar can;t even afford a four piece local band these days. More musicians need to go actually run a Bar and see what the math is. music is supposed to make us do well in MATH, somehow it does not for most. 2+2 seems to come up 3 every time.
Many valid points. I still do them but not like I was before. I just say no if I don't want to do them and if it's not worth my time. I play for churches for the most part but never demand money. If I feel the price is not worth my time I just say no but there are exceptions. Now that I have a family sometimes it's just not worth the $100 to take away time from them.
First of all, rehearsals are nonsense for cover gigs. If it's an original band, and there AREN'T any charts, then IF you have the time, sure, ONE rehearsal. As a bandleader, I hate rehearsals. I expect players to know the songs, show up, and play. Mistakes happen, and one or twenty rehearsals isn't going to stop that. But know the material. If we tour, that's a bit different, but even then it should be a limited number of full band rehearsals (one on one or section rehearsals are preferable). Two - I have a scale on taking gigs. One to ten: How fun will it be? Is the pay acceptable? Will it help my career? Any gig that doesn't score at least "15" gets turned down. Three - for any original band, it's a tougher haul. Venues are not patrons of the arts. They are businesses that have a certain amount they need to make to stay in business. An acquaintance opened a venue in a very popular area, with three other partners. All of them are musicians, and he owns a recording studio. They got a great sound system, advertised, and booked local original acts. They almost went bankrupt. After six months, they started having tribute bands. Their pay for original acts plummeted unless there was a great turnout. They stopped booking certain kinds of music completely. And I can't blame them - they risked everything, and almost didn't make it. Last point - speaking of perceived worth, anywhere you play MUST charge a cover. $5. $10. $25. Depending on your following ($5 for limited following, etc.). Why? Because when you play at places that don't charge, your perceived worth is NOTHING. You aren't worth paying for to see. And when you want to play a venue that charges a cover, they will see that you played Joe's Dump-and-Drunk last week with no cover. So how can they justify charging patrons when you'll just play another dive with no cover next week? It's not so much the $100 per man, which (granted) sucks. It's more of what your audience thinks your band is worth.
I was talking with a band leader for a very successful local cover band several months ago. He is very smart about his marketing and booking and with the money he's making from his band playing twice a week he had a custom home built in Northern California. On average his band members will make $3k a month each for playing some cheesy cover tunes doing the casino circuit, private events, local restaurants, etc.. It can be done. NO rehearsals! He sends the songs out to everyone to do their homework then, just show up and play.
@@mckaigg That's true. I played the wedding/bar-bat mitzvah/society circuit for years. $4 - 5K a night for a quintet wasn't unusual (although most of the players didn't get that - the agency did). And you can sure charge at least $2k a night now for a sextet playing cheesy cover tunes, in the right venues - like the ones you mentioned. Places that don't need music, but they feel it adds to the ambience. They don't mind paying more, because they already have a steady source of income. And, if that's what you want out of playing music, you should do that (not you, personally, I mean people who do that). Like people in tribute bands who don't mind pretending to be someone else for a living. You play, you have some fun, you get paid, and that's all you need. But from my own experience - when you start not to give a crap anymore, when you don't care about the audience, or the gig, or find yourself getting drunk AND stoned just to do the set, it's probably time to look for something that makes you happier. As they say, your mileage will vary.
I agree with this though. I charge about $150 Australian per hour which is the industry rate. However most venues wont pay that; or wont book you again if the turnout is poor; or they only offer door deals. If you play original songs you can get about $3 per song per performance through live performance returns.
Hey Terence - I hit like, the bell, and the subscribe button: I love your delivery, the production, and of course the tantalizing title :-) I hear every point you made, and in my opinion it lacks empathy for how very different live music opportunities are across different areas. I know you made this before the pandemic, but the biz is the biz and the core values I think you missed held true right through it. To your points: #1 - I'd argue anyone who shows up at a live music gig and brings 60% effort should most definititely find something else to do - because you're not cut out for the music biz. It's 110% anytime you're in front of an audience - the key to great performers is what they do when they're NOT at their best - like when they're only making $100 for the gig. #2 - throughout world history, market value has RARELY been set by employees demanding higher wages, but it almost always is set by what consumers demand. Here in Florida, there are no shortage of "re-located" musicians who are looking forward to retirement. That has a BIG impact on what that market can bear, especially when 4 or 5 of them show up willing to play a gig for free meals and drinks for their spouses. In NYC, bands PAY the venues to play. You have to start somewhere and for most that means starting at the bottom of the pay scale. #3 - each artist earns his value, and sadly in the real world that could be less than $100/gig. I find most of the musicians who bitch about money haven't actually sat down and purchased a drink at any of the potential venues they want to play at. In my opinion, it's bad to encourage potential live musicians to stay home and pout until the music fairly puts a $100 bill under their pillow - because that means they miss out on the very experience of how to get better better and add value to their brand - to me that's a big mistake that guarantees failure in the music biz. #4 - compliance and complacency are definitely factors that affect live music, but money is a small part of it. You want to make more money? Don't play the same 40 songs in the same order every night. Invest in equipment that will make your product better - equipment which is not always the shiny new guitar, keyboard, or drum you think it would be cool to have. Sometimes, it's a PA, light show, advertising, swag, things that other start up businesses do every single day. #5 - if you assign your personal "value" based on how much you get for a gig, you should most definitely find something else to do because you're not cut out for the music biz. The real questions you should ask sound more like "what do I need to do to earn a living playing music?", "How do I get to tour the world on someone else's money?" - goals and dreams like that. Maybe that means taking steady gigs on weeknights for less than $100 and figuring out how you can grow those gigs into better ones. Learn what makes people want to tip, learning of other opportunities that avail themselves because you played those gigs... Signed - the guy who plays gigs that pay more AND less than $100 every single week, for decades.
3 yrs later, beginners are dying for exposure, at 60 yrs old now i would still do it for the thrill of being on stage, even a dive bar, but i agree with everything you are saying
Man! Now here is where I totally agree 100% with Terence. He is so right it hurts. And let's not forget that the day of the gig the bass player will call you to see if he can borrow a bass because his is in the "shop" .....the pawn shop. And the singer needs to borrow a mic stand and the other guitarist plays like Larry Carlton but is so absent minded you know to just bring him a tuner and a strap. And the club has no lights so ya better bring some because everyone else is so caught up with having the baddest new axe they never considered lights. Listen up kids. Me and Terence might not always agree but this is solid advice. Thank you Terence🙏♾️♥️
Thanks for the info Terence! I can clearly see that you are appealing to those who really want to make a living as a full time musician. This is not for the hobbyist mindset.... Being happy to receive $100 for something that you've done your whole life or for a considerable amount of time, shows that you have a hobbyist mentality.. you cannot make a living off of that kind of pay. There are levels to everything folks! The $100 gig is the lowest aiming target to shoot for. I don't think it's arrogant to say that you're worth more than the norm (given you are a good musician and you really have something to offer). There are a lot of variants to this but the message is clear as a bell to me! A lot of your information has helped me to be full time now. Thanks again and keep them coming!
I knew he was going to start with the numbers. Applying logic to the music business is like trying to teach a pig to sing. A complete waste of time. I used to work a steady gig when there was an actual Musicians Union here in SoCal. Those days are long gone and the cutthroat mentality of the clubs,restaurants and bands coming up is definitely a hill to climb. What I've learned from fellow players is take any gig you can. Playing music is a war of attrition. Which means keep playing no matter what. As they say talent + opportunity equals success. Eventually as I have you'll come across a lucrative gig, perhaps on a steady basis. As a band leader I built a relationship with the city here and play and will be playing the harbour & beaches when the lockdown is over. So if you're expecting the music business to be fair you're in the wrong business. Be a Warrior and play no matter what.
I would have to completely disagree with this! The "take any gig you can" mentality is the very thing that prevents opportunity. This argument is like making an argument to play the lottery as many times as you can so that you greaten your chances of winning. This doesn't make much sense in this case, but it's even worse when it applies to opportunities. At least the lottery is fixed in terms of numbers. opportunities are mostly arbitrary in the case you are talking about. However, opportunities are created, not necessarily something you just stumble upon. Furthermore...clubs and such aren't the sole places for bands and musicians. There are plenty of other places in which bands can branch out that are far more lucrative than a typical club.
the problem in my area is there are many "artist/musicians" that are willing to either perform for free or for free beer to get exposure for their music which is quite, blasé and/or media-Oka. i come along and get the line of bs from the club owner that this other guy performed for free so i should too. so usually my closing line is they should get that other guy and stop wasting my time. another sleezy move club owners make is, at the conclusion of the gig, they lay the line of crap that we didn't draw a big enough crowd and therefor pay us less - a lot less than what was originally agreed upon. me: "do you do that with your bar tenders and waitress too?" btw, if you mention contract they won't hire you. but, yea. the artists who are willing to perform for free are a big problem. it screws everyone else.
I tell my students and kids at clinics that the the worse the music is the more money you make and the better the music is the less money you make. The are commercial gigs and there are cultural gigs. Commercial gigs should and do pay better money. Cultural gigs (jazz gigs and music you love to play) usually pay less.. A jazz big band gig is fun to play but with 16 people in the band hard to pay for. I still do big band jazz gigs that pay $50.. You've heard the phrase "starving artist"? That kind of defines the "cultural musician" .Someone who plays the music he loves for short bread. I do a lot of free rehearsals with what some people call kicks bands. I'm a trumpet player and we have to keep our chops up. " Free Lance" musicians do a lot of different type and paying gigs. We play shows, dances, party's, studio film dates and jazz gigs. It all comes back to my opening statement . Shows and dances and party's and studio dates pay well but the music is not fun to play or even listen to. Jazz gigs pay less but it the music we love to play and listen to and for the cultural musicians the reason we got into music in the first place.
I was asked to play at a church for the anniversary service....they had two long services after the service the pastor and his wife gave me a check for 50 funky dollars and had the nerve to smile like they was doing something
Excellent my dude. I’m 2 years new to TX and my experience here is that this is a epidemic. This mentality undermines advanced working players like me. It’s taught Church’s to pay musicians minimally, low balling us to death during contract negotiations. It’s to the point that few churches choose quality over perceived feasibility. Churches choose under qualified, under developed musicians paying them crumbs and when the qualified shows up $400-$600 (which should be standard here) sounds outrageous. Imma product of the Bay Area. Our version of player quality control is “Be dope or be clowned every time you hit a key”. Average where I’m gets you laughed out of town. That mentality has made us a region of “head hunters”. Musicians who for a while only love to rip the next musicians head off. I’m not sure what it will take for this particular region to except and implement your advice but this 💩 is killing the working musicians and it’s inferiating. Stop existing as less 🎶🎼 Family
Churches won't pay because crooked ass pastors and deacons are stealing all the money. My pastor got caught embellishing and the church shut down. When he wasn't stealing he was banging all the underaged girls in the choir and all the women in the congregation. A real man of Christ.
The bottom line is leverage. If you're a known asset, you can demand a higher price. If you're a nobody, the venue has all the control. It's a wise expense for a professional to invest in marketing to get more known.
We were doing 100 per band member gigs back in the early 1980's when premium cocktails cost 2.50-3.00.My opinion,the reasons why bands starting getting less work and money is this.D.J.'s took over because they starting playing the cover songs that people wanted to hear,and bands couldn't or didn't want to play those songs.Also,the performance quality of bands went down so there basically was no difference between watching a live band and listening to a D.J.The D.J.wins because he/she has less personnel overhead and a lower act cost...
I don't play for money, I do it for excitement and the endorphins. In the early 90's I was making $550 to $900 a show but they were 2000+ audience. If I get paid enough to cover my gas, I'm ok with that.
Rudi: the reference is to music being a Skilled trade or profession, worthy of professional wages and compensation for the many many years of schooling, and practice and learning music to be employable. The comparison is to emphasize the amount of money the Plumbers, and Electric9ans demand and get, as well as Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors etc. Professionals need to demand professional renumeration or simply don't provide the services.
@@MrStGabrielsbb This video is only for semi professional hacks who play top 40 gigs. Not for actual artists. The other day I played a festival for $150. The festival had Reggie Workman, Winard Harper and Barry Harris on it. I'm a pianist. The excellently tuned grand piano was already there. I showed up. Played for 15 minutes and made the $150. That's how it happens in the real world of music. If some schmuck tries to say " I don't play gigs for $100" he's probably going to price himself right out of it. Especially if he's a semi professional hack who plays top 40... You have to use discretion. The plumber, the electrician, the doctor, the lawyer when you NEED legal assistance. You can't do without them. Musicians you can do without. Because its not a matter of self esteem or valuing yourself. They can decide to hire a DJ instead of a band. You can decide not to do the party this month. That is the real world of music. Not what you are talking about. You are talking about Simi professionals.
Good advice. However, the market pays musicians $100, at least around my area, for bar gigs. You can set your value at whatever you want, but if you tell them you have to have a lot more, they'll just find someone who will do the gig for $100. So I guess if I want to buy groceries it's a day gig for me....I have much better luck with one nighter stuff, but of course that's fewer and farther between. It would be nice if it worked the way you describe, but it doesn't, at least not in my area....
Also, I just did the math and 100 dollars divided by 13 hours is about $7.69. In NYC, the minumum wage is $15 dollars per hour! So that means you would be being paid half of minimum wage!!! Wow. When you probably been a musician for over 20, maybe 25 years or more..... that's so crazy :( What you said about how accepting low paid gigs also affects musicians is soooo true. It's like, if we ALL started saying no to low paying gigs, venues, clubs, etc... would have NO CHOICE but to pay us more.... And since when do artists look at the status quo and just say, "yeah ok, that's fine...". If anything, we of all people should be trying to change the status quo if we don't agree with it! :)
I play in a jazzy trio with some parameters. Being a hired gun or in a dedicated band are two different things for sure. I believe you can only get better as a musician if you play live with what you have been working on in private We used to rehearse now we send loops and tracks to each other and play at the gig. We have learned how to “play together”which makes it work. We are picky now about what gigs to take but we stay busy even with our day jobs.😂
Curious: I'm playing almost exclusively original material by friends and colleagues who's music i care about; the gigs are never "4 hour club date style" gigs; after the initial rehearsal (before the first gig) we almost never rehearse again, and I do 2 - 5 of these a week. They're ALL $100 gigs.... venues won't pay more. We all make the same amount - leader/composer, other players, many of whom are local a-listers. (Meanwhile, when I do get called for the bigger 4 hour club date style gigs, my base price is $650.) So I'm not sure what you're saying is applicable across the board.... we all have to make choices. I choose creative music which pays me back in many other ways besides money you dig. :)
$100 gigs can lead to $350+ gigs. As a musician, manager and band owner, I originally felt on the defensive with this video, because I'm the brotha' that is paying the $100 to each musician for a cover gig including myself. Local live music venues, such as restaurants and bars, can NOT pay $1500+ a night. Which is why DJ's have killed off a ton of live music venues around Boston. Cheaper to put on Spotify than hire a band. The question: Is your phone ringing off the hook with high paid gigs? If not, be careful what you shit on. I'll take $100 over $0 for the night. The flaw with your time vs. pay formula is that most of the songs that a musician has to learn can earn way more than $100. You can not think short term. Once a musician learns that song, the work is done! The new songs are now your repertoire and you can EARN & BUILD money with that knowledge. FUTURE $100 gigs are now easy and effortless. Put in the work once and now you capitalize on that time spent with future dates and making a profit. Now you can earn $1000 with 10 easy gigs with songs you already know. You are now easily hired and more consistently with minimal effort on your part. Once my musicians have songs down, there is no need for rehearsals. We can gig on those same 30-60 songs for the year and make money with minimal effort because it's 2nd nature.
Love that opening comment “So your still doing $100 gigs?? Well that’s probably why your a broke musician!” This is so true!!! Not only does it affect the musician but it also waters down the venue booking for other working musicians. A lot of places are gonna start saying well so and so plays for $300 cheaper! We’re gonna go with him! 🤦🏽♂️
New unknown local bands that are just starting out are not exactly in a position to command top dollar for gigs. So we play for whatever we can get until we have a solid reputation. We can then ask for the kind of money that we want to make. Having a large number of bands in a small area with a small number of live music venues, we can’t be too picky about what we’re paid with the competition.
I just watched Damien keyes video saying they drove from France to whales for 200 quid but it was to 600 people and from that one gig they were booked up.... I hear you, but cracking into the scene is so friggin hard.... My bands so good it really is but all i get is slammed doors.
This is a great video. Maybe you can release one that explains how to assess personal value, this is the rub. Some musicians, might only be worth 100 dollar gigs and might end up pricing themselves out of work, by overcharging. It can be very difficult, to accurately self-assess worth.
I’m in a 4 person cover band. We play the local bars…. The going rate is $400 for 3 sets for 4 hrs including breaks. Each of us gets $100. If we don’t accept these $400 gigs there are 30 bands behind us that will. So how do we increase our worth/pay?
I can respect the views of this video. However, unfortunately pushing the status quo, is only possible if you get the majority to push back as well. The issue isn’t just the musicians, it’s also the talent buyers (bar owners primarily) who don’t see the value in paying more for bands to play.
I was getting $100 per night in the late '70s (which is the equivalent of $350+ per night today) - and those were 5-night house gigs that usually included food, a couple of drinks, and, of course, tips. And, of course, with a house gig, you weren't schlepping your gear all over hell every night. In the 80's I was getting $150 per night for the same. On the rare occasions where I did a one-night gig, I charged at least double.
The state of the business these days is sad. It is so much more difficult for you younger folks to do what we did. Further, working 5 nights a week meant you didn't have to have a day job, and playing all those hours week in and week out for months on end gets you polished at your craft, to say the least ...
you had it easyy
We used to play 6 nights a week every week of the year and all over the country. 8000 watts of front house and 24k in lighting. This was not unusual in 80’s and early 90’s. We didn’t grow up listening to hip hop and rap.
It's a matter of supply of gigs vs. supply of bands. When supply of bands increases there is a downward pressure of the equilibrium price the supplier of gigs needs to pay. Everyone it seems wants to be a rock star these days. Too many bands, too few venues, therefor competition for gigs brings prices down.
If you have a monopoly (Taylor Swift) you can set your own price.
I think it's a balance between understanding where you stand. My old band used to practice 20+ hours a week. We had 2 setlists in rotations, both ready to go with specific features. The journey started with 100$ shows. We were never late, always ready to play, as professional as we could be, and never acted like divas, EVER. Eventually, we got a lot more! Some included accommodations, catering, etc. Eventually, I branched off doing sessions and solo gigs. Paid anything between 80$-150$ an hour. I got there by nailing my parts within 1 or 2 takes. Who do you prefer to pay, a guy that charges 30$ but takes 5 hours of your time for 1 song or a guy that takes 2 hours to nail your entire album? I am consistent both on stage or in studio. I am not even the best. I just deliver on my word. Apply yourself, aspire to be the best, work with people but be smart about it. Knowing your worth is important, but remember that we all start at the bottom. Learn from the journey.
Bet you aren't a narcissistic drunk junkie either.
So how come we havent heard of you?
I started turning down crappy gigs and I have much fewer gigs now because the rest of the musos around me are compliant and complacent like you say. It's not gonna change the situation in general around here if only a few of us push back. They can always get somebody to do the gig for next to nothing. The upside: After a few months of feeling weird about being free on a Saturday night I don't mind having less gigs b/c I wasn't getting much money for them even when my gig calendar was brimming. The bread and butter was always teaching, and my life always felt frantic. I have more time to compose, I have more time for students, and I can spend more time in studio and do other things and hang out with my friends instead of working on weekends. There are some exceptions also. I will play a crappy paying gig if I think it's a real opportunity. But just cranking out the old tired covers ONE MORE TIME for the same old people & with the same old people..... Nope.
The worst part is that some of my buddies who I used to used to do the cheap gigs with have kinda cut me off, (as I knew they would)... So..... we can't be friends unless I do cheap gigs with you? Well.... that's hardly a good basis for friendship.
This is why I'll always accept these gigs, less money less effort as he said
Yep. I kept saying that my gigging just about paid for itself - if you include the upkeep of the instrument and gas and food and stuff on the road. Then I started being more choosy about my work and have been doing less, but really satisfying, playing AND I really haven't lost much money because I spend so much less on expenses. I now apply the "Music Money Mates" rule. The gig has to be good in at least two of these, or one if it is really incredibly good.
To me the money is a bonus but that's it. I jam it out with other guys whenever I can and take gigs whenever I can just because I love doing it. I'm getting paid for what I would be doing recreationally. All is good! Golf would be a chore, gigging isn't.
A giant ship engine failed. The ship’s owners tried one expert after another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine.
Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was young. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom.
Two of the ship’s owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed!
A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand dollars.
“What?!” the owners exclaimed. “He hardly did anything!”
So they wrote the old man a note saying, “Please send us an itemized bill.”
The man sent a bill that read:
Tapping with a hammer………………….. $ 2.00
Knowing where to tap…………………….. $ 9,998.00
Bruce Benjamin this is awesome! Love it!
i love this story, i've read it a few times in the past, but, that's truth right there and a perfect analogy for so many situations!
Great story but I don't see how it addresses the problem Terence is referring to. If there were 50 local old guys or gals like this and they all knew exactly where to tap, they wouldn't be able to charge 10K for this gig because one of them would undercut then the next one and pretty soon all the out of work old guys would be begging the ship people to let them demo their sklls for free.
@@ColleenKitchen well there in lies the problem doesnt it.... not everybody has unique skills, and some of those people are not ready to stop taking $100 gigs because they are mediocre in an oversaturated market, not offering anything of value...
this video is perhaps not for those people, those people need to work on developing skills, experties, and strategies that offer value, like the guy in the ship analogy above
MY NIGGA!!!!!!
Love it!
1. 60% Delivery. If you feel undervalued, you will do less work and give less effort - around 60% of your ability. This starts a cycle of undervalued/underachieved.
2. Market Depreciation: By doing cheap gigs, the amount paid to you and other musicians will similarly lower.
3. It determines your value to others. Like Apple, the more you charge, the more you are perceived to be worth.
4. Compliance and complacency: we accept the status quo we make for ourselves.
5. You feel less valuable. And therefore you become less valuable (see #1).
True
I have a Saturday night residence at a very old, rather legendary bar in my city. 5 musicians play for $500 total and 5 drink tickets each for two 50 minute sets. I get email transferred my $100 on Thursday, 5 days later and, numerology aside, frankly I’m happy to have it. I wish we were making more, but it’s a steady, reliable pay day doing what I love that helps supplement my income, and since I’m used to getting paid 0$ for playing originals, it’s nice to at least have my talent valued to a certain extent even for playing mostly covers.
My father was a career musician, he played 5/6 nights a week in the 70s/80s making more than I make at my unionized job now, but those days are gone. Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking $100 for a gig as long as they’re not blatantly taking advantage of the artist with overly long set times and a refusal to treat them to complimentary drinks or food.
That is not a bad gig.. It is relatively short.. steady.. and after a while you build a repertoire of songs that make rehearsals less important.. but I am big on regular rehearsals.. at least two hours a week regardless..
Testify Brotherman!
It’s a real issue. I don’t accept gigs like this unless there’s no rehearsal and they are within 30 minute drive. The main issue is there will always be bands, inexperienced, unqualified, etc, who will play for less, which completely undermines the business.
that feeds itself too, b/c the venues think *ALL* local bands aren't worth more than that, when in fact the only bands they know are the ones who play for that kind of $$
I don't know. If an unexperienced and unqualified band, with less talent, steal my Place in music business Just because they ask less Money, the problem to solve Is another than money
So real.
How did YOU start in the business? By taking the low budget gigs to gain exposure, experience and "pay your dues".
Old Man, hey! I started playing as a 5 year old, took lessons studied and practiced. Joined a band at 12 and did some school related functions for a year then booked my first gig at 13 for $20 at a social group mixer, they paid the band $80. We had been practicing together for over a year never intending to gig.
It was like school where we got some experience. It wasn’t an adult gig or a club where men made their living.
My thoughts on this video:
I like this video and I dig Terence Fisher and how he conveys his points. I don’t mean to start any negativity with presenting my thoughts, I just wanted to contribute and share how I see the points made.
Making a living with music is not quick or easy. There is a lot of work involved in building your brand, making connection, expanding your reach, and understanding the specifics of the market you are in.
This is all before you even touch your instrument!
The description given for the $100 gig is (metaphor of a gig that under minds your value):
- 2 weeks from now
- 1 rehearsal
- 2 to 3 day lead time before the rehearsal
- Set list 30 songs, know 10 to 12, sort of heard at least 3 or 4 others (because you’ve played so long)
- Need to practice or shed 20 songs
- Average it takes 20 minutes to shed a song, to at least get through it
- 20min x 20 songs = 6 ½ hours round down to 6 hours
- 2 hour rehearsal = 8 hours
- 4 hour gig = 12 hours
- Drive time (average drive time 15 minutes) = 15 x 4 = 1 = 13 hours
- Minimum wage
For me, I only run into the above described gig conditions maybe 2 times a year. That’s perhaps 4% of the number of gigs I do. There are other factors related to taking these kind of gigs. Maybe I just like playing with all those musicians and we never get a chance to play together. Maybe I like playing that specific music but on regular gigs that specific music is never called for. Maybe the gig and rehearsal are so close to another gig that I already have that day, it just makes sense to do the gig because of quantity of work in a given day.
5 reasons to stop doing gigs like the above
1. 60 percent delivery phenomenon = poor work ethics and poor mind set
a. I believe that every gig should be treated as an opportunity to present your product in the best light possible
b. Work ethic shouldn’t be dependant exclusively on money.
c. If you feel that a gig is not worthy of your time, I do agree that you should say no!
2. Market depreciation - set market value for yourself and for other musicians
a. This completely avoids the challenge of having a market that both includes professions (people that make money to pay bills via gigs) and others (people that do music for fun and don’t care about making money)
b. Also, the action of refusing $100 doesn’t set the market value, the market sets its value.
c. If other musicians charge more, perhaps they need to tell the client the benefits of their product and how it may differ from the $100 musician/band
3. Determines your value to others - price that you charge is a huge determining factor on how people see you (Apple as an example)
a. I agree with this point, however, to me it doesn’t peel the onion enough to explain why Apple can charge way more then other companies with similar products. Apple has brand recognition which it obtained over decades of hard work. They have influenced the market to a point where the market is willing to pay the prices they set because they are a mainstream product. There are main stream musicians. I wouldn’t compare myself to mainstream musicians and wouldn’t model my marketing strategy to main stream musicians.
4. Compliance and complacency - this is how it is
a. A small business owner or trades person doesn’t base pricing on what happened in the first few years and leaves the pricing there. There is an evolution of how pricing is set depending on personal life developments (starting family, purchasing car, buying better or more equipment, etc.), experience gained, and connections made within the industry
5. You yourself start to feel less valuable - don’t feel appreciated
a. This has more to do with attitude in my opinion and finding ways to stay positive. As a musician I have found that I need to realize that not everything is positive. Sometimes I feel lonely, sometimes the conditions of a gig before hitting the stage are frustrating, sometimes the length of time to get paid is annoying. I had to find a way to deal with these negative emotions and conditions. However, I have always put forth my best effort regardless of how much a gig paid. Do I feel better when a gig pays $400 vs $100? Sure I do, but do I use the excuse of a gig paying $100 to justify a lack of effort? Never, it totally devalues you and you never know who will sit in the audience of your $100 gig that might give you a higher paying gig.
Klaus Anselm Very good points. I have never heard of the 60 percent delivery phenomenon, and I think you are correct that it’s about work ethic. I have heard of the economic law of supply and demand which affects how the market sets the price. To charge higher you have to have established brand recognition or differentiated your service/product in some way ... either superior quality or specialized ... and somebody has to be willing to pay for that in order for you to get the higher pay.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. I also like to add "know your audience". If people don't care that you can read the Real Book and play all the jazz standards, and prefer you to play "Brown Eyed Girl", then that's the gig! Be happy to get it. If you get so busy that you can turn down gigs and only take high paying ones, good for you! If not, then keep playing and consider other options financially. Just because you are a musician doesn't mean that's ALL YOU DO! - thank you.
market depreciation is really a thing. My prof tells me to aim for 200€ an hour ideally or at the very least 200€ per gig plus travel costs and a little more when I am supposed to bring my own gear. And thats really the price where I live. At least 200€ per gig and person and for many bands quite a bit more (my prof goes for 200€ an hour as I said). If some bands startet playing for 100€ per gig and played okay as well, people would hire those bands and not the ones that charge 200€. So please do every musician in your area a favor and dont lower the normal price for live music.
Besides.. when I busk I get 30+€ an hour. In 3 hours I have easily 100€. Thats playing the songs I want to play, including a lot of my own songs. Thats also no/hardly any travel time. At the very least it doesnt make any sense, even for me, and I am still studying, to take 100€ gigs that I have to learn some songs for. If I know everything and its in a local bar and I can also put up a tip jar - its okay. But if its a wedding gig, I have to learn a ton of songs they wished for, I have to drive there and bring my own gear, there is no fucking way I am going to do it for 100€. As he said in the video- it adds up to maybe 13 hours or something (although most of the time you are there for much longer than 3 hours) and in 13 hours I would have made about 400€ with busking.
It depends after all: if there is a small festival where I play exclusively my own songs I am willing to do it for free and spend dozens of hours, practicing those songs. But if its just cover songs it should make me at least nearly what I would get when busking.
I took a gig for $100.00 to play two songs I already know. I don’t mind doing those kind of gigs.
DON'T DO REHEARSAL FOR $100 GIGS.... THAT I AGREE WITH
Why would you?
It is just a $100 gig... Not like you are playing a show or something haha.
@@dijonjohn1011 people do it all the time
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As a bassist, I can generally look at the guitarists fretting hand and know the chord and lock with the drummer even with songs I never heard. That's kind of fun, but if a song is well known and demands an exact bass part, well then it's not gonna work. Hard one bar stops are tough too, but a lot of players telegraph those. Especially the ones that know you're unfamiliar with that piece and help you. I've snuck a finger count, like 4 fingers, to subtly clue another player the next chord is the IV chord, just turn a little so the audience doesn't see it. If you're gonna freelance as opposed to only play in one band that rehearses, you're going to have to face these challenges.
my experience has been that when you sound like crap, word gets around fast. it's best to not take the job.
I think the main point here is you have to count the costs. Count up the assets and the deficits to see if it is worth your time. If the gig pays $100 and you spend $200 in gas, then the $ might not be right for you. If the gig pays nothing, but gives you the exposure you need, then maybe the $0 works for you. Count the costs people...tangible and intangible. #DavidsHouse
Exactly. It's simple mathemathics.
Gian Minus costs.
If I Can live with It it's ok. If not, something must be changed.
Or I'm doing the wrong job, or my fare is too low.
"Exposure"...I would for a fun experience, but not for someone saying "exposure"
Some very good points for sure. As a working bassist I have also done this math. For $100 there’s no rehearsal, tunes I already know and have played a million times.
There are exceptions to every rule, IMO, but I get where you’re coming from. For sure.
Haha yeah, I doubt many musicians are spending 12+ hours on a $100 gig XD
Most musicians are lucky to even be offered a single gig that pays $100... This video is some click bate garbage :/
You have to evaluate each gig based on money, music, and the hang. Aim for 2 out of 3. If the gig has a great bunch of musicians I love to hang out with and playing super fun music, I don't mind playing it for cheap or free. Alternatively, if it's great money and great music, I don't mind if I don't really get along with the other players. Just keep my head down and have fun playing. Finally, if it's a great hang and great money, I'll happily fake my way through a gig, even if the music isn't really very interesting to me.
Obviously, if it's all three, then it's a gig to hang onto forever.
in theory this guy makes so0me sense but in the real world most cannot follow his advice unless they want to quit playing frequently or even much at all. the real world usually doesn't work out like this preacher is preaching. if your really valuable as a player, good stage look and very professional to work and have a good attitude you will be more likely to get calls and in a better position to get more money but the average musician that shows up in cargo shorts with a pedestrian stage look, not prepared musically and doesn't carry a professional attitude will usually not be worth more than the lowest amount. you become "WORTH MORE"...when you "ARE MORE". PERIOD.
I'm pretty sure the assumption is that you are a good musician and have a professional attitude.
Your argument is valid to a point. Every time I take the stage, whether it be a jam session or (home) church session where I have no expectation of compensation or if I am lead, solo or side musician in a paid gig, I am seeking a new level in my musicianship, stage personna and overall professionalism. However, the customer assigns no greater value to your work than you do. I am sure Terence Fisher is not saying to not even answer your phone for less than a number that represents your honest assessment of your work. As I said, for my home church I neither request nor expect compensation. It is a service of one body member to the rest of the body. On the other hand, if another church asks me to do something, I am obligated to ask for a fee, even a nominal "charity" fee. Otherwise, I am treated worse in the church than I am in the concert.
I came to this the hard way. I used to play as a guest artist at churches and church-related events on the same basis as my home church. I started to notice envelopes being passed to keyboardist/pianists, drummers, bass/lead guitarists, and sometimes lead vocalists. Very seldom (i.e., NEVER) would they wander over to the guy with the two saxophones, bongos and tumbadoras, and bag of hand percussion instruments with anything more than a, "Wow! You are talented!", which while very much appreciated is nowhere near as encouraging as the MATERIAL + VERBAL commentary on my work that was given to these others. I felt like I was less appreciated. In fact I was.
Then there is how much outside churches even respect free talent that is not one of their own. I performed at one church-related picnic and one of the guests not only shouted me down on the setup for an upcoming song. He actually got up and turned the amp off. That was the end of my free church and church-related tour.
If this is how "Christian" venue operators (not all by any means) operate, what can I possibly expect from completely "secular" venue operators? These have no divine obligation to respect and honor which they may disregard. They have no ethics code to which they are obligated. They are only driven by whether their bottom line is black or red. If I show up for the "$100 gig" and give my best, at what point do I expect that operator to increase my compensation? At what point does the operator see me as something truly valuable? How did you treat that paramour that demanded nothing but a modicum of time and attention, but gave you everything you did or might have requested? On the other hand, how did you treat that paramour that demanded more of you than any other had? That one is probably sitting right beside you sharing a home, life and destiny.
I may play less, maybe not at all for a while, but when I do, I will know that the operator values and respects what I do. I will feel better for doing it, and it will show up in my performance. I can also expect that the quality of the venues I play will improve. When a heckler starts in on a paid featured artist, the price of admission and the venue operator's investment will behoove the operator to end the show for the heckler, not the artist.
@Leon DeVoseII thank you for the novel
Good stuff bro!
You’d be right in an ideal world where music and the value of musicians are recognized…but unfortunately the real world is different😅 been doing this for a while and my dad’s a musician as well. The point is that pubs/restaurants don’t have or don’t want to spend much money on live music so it’s either you accept a “100$ gig” or another musician comes and gets it instead of you. The worst ones are those who willingly go to play for free because they harm the whole industry, even if sometimes they’re not even pros, just amateurs. But in general live music only offers 2 kinds of possibilities: “100$ gigs” or big stages with a huge budget, which unfortunately aren’t easily accessible to common musicians. Only 1% of us makes it to those levels so it is what it is
I'm from new york city.. if my band makes $100 a head that means the venue or buyer is paying about $1,100 most venues in the city won't pay that much for any band unless they have a great draw over +500 to +1000 people so few of the known bands in the city can do this but not all the venues capitalize on this by opening places where musicians can play but they have to basically get the club paid first then they have some room to negotiate how much they get.
now as a hired musician performing at a wedding or corporate gig it's easy to earn much more than $100 but the problem with those gigs is that they often pay late and require a w9 or to send an invoice and the back and forward with the people in charge of getting you paid on time. (almost always impossible)
my approach is this i try to build relationships with people that i work with and i don't take random gigs my friends ask me to do because what i see is if the regular guy they get can't do it they will definitely try to undercut whoever comes in as a substitute..
the worst experience i've had was the entertainment company paid this wedding band like 1/3 of what the people organized the wedding put up and they stole the rest. we only found out when the manager reached out to the couple after a few weeks and found out what we should've gotten it was infuriating for everybody
I've started doing small contract signed. that keeps everything legit and wont let the venue screw you over
like someone else pointed out on this thread. If it's close and no rehearsal required then $100 is not bad. I played a gig yesterday for $80. One hour, no rehearsal, show up and read. Took just over 30 minutes to get there. Easy. If it's a case of a four hour gig, three rehearsals for the week leading up to the gig and your pay is $100 plus snacks then no that's not worth it. I used to play with a cover band years ago that had a ton of potential for corporate gigs but the band leader was doing it "just for fun". We played one of the Livermore wineries on Labor Day. four hour gig, we brought all the sound and an engineer. With travel, setup, gig, and tear down it became an eight hour day. How are these numbers? 7 piece band, eight hour day, pay was a case of wine and $100. I don't drink. It was outside in 100 degree heat and no water or food provided either. The caterer understood and offered us food but when I asked the band leader if there was water for us he said "um, we're getting some wine later". There are so many out there who are doing it "for the love of music" and the sad part is they look down on the rest of us for expecting to get paid.
I do not Agree.
You go and read.
This should be called a performance?
No, this is grinta work, and you deserve less than 100$.
Infact, it's a job you can do any time and anywhere.
But if you prepare something beautiful,.a show, a well-considered list of 30 songs, well played, with riffs played all together, with passione ext, you cannot go for 100$
@jeff h Is exactly the same thing I've said
@@RanieriDiBiagio I'm bringing 30 years of training and experience to the gig. To be able to show up, sight read charts for an hour or more set, groove, and support the band is a skill long developed and should be valued. I know guys who won't leave the house for less than $500 and guess what? They get those quality gigs. None of us learned how to play at this level overnight and for those of us who have spent decades developing our craft should value what we do.
@@mckaigg totally Agree, but you we're Just out of focus. The guy in the video talks about a simple addition : rehersal's hours+study's hours+drive to the pub+concert and at the end he divides. The fact you can read the music and you can perform Just Reading at First sight Is because you are a great musician and you dedicated your Life to this professions, and for that you should deserve Money.
But in music there's not only profession, the mail thing is passion. For this reason my answer to you. You go and give others a bit of your knowledge. It's different from preparing a special repertoire, with a scene behind you Ext Ext
Very good points. Never sell yourself short. Always know your worth 💯
Yes, that kind of money is an insult, however musicians will ‘always’ accept that and less, because they just want to play. It will ‘never’ change.
I'm trying to transition to higher paying gigs which will involve developing a tighter act: broadening my songbook, getting material tight, press kit, etc. Something that really resonated with me though on this video was that your price point value determines your psychological value towards the gig. I've gotten a few well paying gigs ($300 and up) in the past three months. Psychologically I was up in spirit and preparedness for those gigs as opposed to my lower paid one's. It's true it is a self fulfilling cycle that you can get stuck in.
Terence, i agree 100% with your comments. I am a pro drummer and i remember making $100 a gig back in the 80's! the wage has not gone up because Musicians under value themselves, there are always crappy bands that will take the low pay and Club owners are cheap and dont care about band quality they care about food and alcohol sales! If a crappy cheap band brings in their friends and their friends spend money they are happy. It's always about money and never about the music sadly!! Where i live in Ontario the music scene is especially bad!
All Truth Bro! Excellent Sir! I’m 2 years new to TX and From my perspective this is a epidemic here. It’s just as stated in your vid. The 💩 undermines advanced working pr players like me. What really kills me is that people/ the customer/ church/ contracting party goes with the lowest price. People still don’t get that you get what you pay for
Bottom line is younger generation does not dig live music. They’re rather go see some clown DJ. Until that changes gigs will be few and far between. Less demand less money.
It's the Bar/Club owners who don't want to pay ...
It's the DUI/DWI laws that prevent many people from going out to those clubs ...
It's the nature and attitude of a lot of people going to bars/clubs who create violence ...
Yes, it's also the DJ's who work the room cheap ...
It's also the Musician with bad attitudes and drug/alcohol problems ...
Everyone loves live Music ... everyones attitudes/behavour is shit.
In the south florida music scene this is the truth. The video is good, but does not address the location issue.
Brian Roberts I’m in Canada and what was very healthy scene is now dead. All the bands that do play are all older guys like myself. I have a place in Englewood Florida and there seems to be a lot of live entertainment. All one nighters though.
Great insights. This is the exact same thing that's talked about among photographers. But the insights you're bringing are things I've never heard discussed among photographers at the same level of organization and depth that you're doing here.
You make some really good points, and the stagnation of working musician's wages is a big problem. But at the end of the day, if I didn't take low money gigs, I wouldn't get to play any gigs. Americana singer/songwriter here, and for me in my area (NW Indiana) a 4-man band getting $100 a man is an above-average payday. If I'm doing a full band gig or a duo with a lead guitarist, chances are I'm only taking home $75-80 for the show. If I do a 3 hour solo acoustic set of mostly covers I can get away with charging around $120, but those kinda sets absolute death. But when I'm going about booking gigs, and when I actually get a response from a venue, if I'm asking for anything above my standard rate I just don't hear back from them. Am I supposed to just sit at home, not booked and not paid, satisfied that I'm not settling for less than I'm worth? This really feels like a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.
Totally agree with all this. The only exception is that I will occasionally do cheaper gigs for old friends, or people who helped me get my career started
I get the sentiment, and I agree with it, but this is the real world. Most of the musicians I've met, and most of the opportunities that have come my way were there because I took $100 gigs. Also most musicians have an inflated view of their own value. When I was coming up, I was "the man", but once I started touring the world, I realized that there are a million guys that are "the man". I was just one of them. You need to swallow your pride and take those gigs, otherwise people won't hear about you nor will you keep getting calls.
Eric Grossman u make a good point
there is value with getting your foot in the door of course. When the better opportunities come up you will often get the call.
Eric Grossman for real. A lot of talented musicians gonna come out of music school expecting to get paid 300-500 per gig will fail to level up because they’re sitting on the couch while other people are getting out there and playing chess and not checkers.
Jamming and gigging is fun for it's own sake. Most people pay for recreation. Be thankful you're getting paid to play. How many golfers can say the same?
There is a difference between taking low or no paying gigs to get your foot in the door vs. being a player with years of experience settling for $100 gigs.
To be honest 10 years ago, I didn't mind it but after inflation, people with high expectations, practice time, prep time, rehearsal time, driving, setup time, parking fees, you quickly realize you are making less than minimum wage.
I completely agree with this gentleman's view point. I perform in a Top Notch 10 piece tribute band with full sound system and light show all state of the art. Collectively we have at least 325 years of music education, knowledge and experience on stage. Most non musician people have NO idea what it takes to perform at a high level in any band let alone a tribute band. Many. many times people offer us $500 for a gig and they think that is ok. I try to explain to the customers the amount of skill, production costs and entertainment value we bring to there venue of event. They dont get it. They think we just do this as a hobby and have not spent most of our adult lives perfecting the skill to play music as I said at a very high level. But they will accept paying a plumber or electrician $125 to $200 per hour to install and or repair something in their home. Granted the plumber or electrician deserves the money for their skill and experience so why doesn't the pro musician or even semi pro musician deserve the same respect and fee? My point here is the general public now in 2019 doesn't respect high quality musicians and bands the same way they do for other trades and skills. In the 70's a good musician could make easily $250-$400 per night on the weekends for a club gig or wedding gig. Now you're lucky to get $50 for the same quality of music at most local clubs. Sorry for the rant but this is reality for most local acts and I don't mean HACKS I mean solid top notch excellent players and bands. But the public they will plop down $250 per ticket to see many so called Pro acts that are lip syncing live or just plain suck. Peace Out!
The difference is there are only so many electricians. Musicians, even good ones, are a "dime a dozen". Economics "Supply and Demand" is relevant. There is only one "George Strait" and one "Beyonce" but there are myriads of nameless others.
You must also consider that many venues can only offer what they think they can afford after their overhead is considered.
Answers 1, 2, 3, and 5 No. Ans. 4. Yes. (Compliance & Complacency). Selling yourself short means nothing.There are too many mathmatical variables on both sides to be certain. Owner expenditures vs. Band indiv. member situational expenditures. Ex. The most generous playing situations never stayed in business long enough to continue.
This is excellent advice for any professional. Engineer, lawyer, physician, musician, etc. In bad times the temptation is to compete on price with one’s competitors. Don’t do it. In the short term it may hurt, but in the long term it always places you and your craft in a well respected position. People who are respected get hired.
Amen!!! :) Wow, this is huge!! This is a really really insightful and incredible video! You really made me stop and think a whole lot and I really appreciate you reminding us about all this. I am realizing lately that I suuuuper undervalue myself as a musician and singer. I love how you said accepting little money for gigs makes other PERCEIVE you as not valuable. Wow, so true! But also, not charging much makes you perceive YOURSELF as not valuable. What a huge and important concept. I will probably have to watch this a few times for it to really sink in, hahaha. Thank you for again!
Well well, on the mainland money was never an issue. When I moved here to Hawaii, unless you’re a solo musician you’re lucky to get $100 for the entire band or work for tips.
You forgot the most important issue-
I’m bringing in a $7,000 PA system in, 2k in lights, a $5,000 Les Paul
Custom, $1,800 Helix floor effects and $2,300 Dr. Z amp. Add that up, what would the daily rate for you to rent that equipment?
I quit doing gigs, simply a waste of time. Most clubs, parties, venues rather hire a DJ.
Thank God I got an education and a wonderful career for music cannot be depended upon.
You are helping my brother
If you play in an area where the bars only pay a certain amount, you can either play, AND ENJOY playing and showing your skills to an audience, or sit home. Most bands start at 100 a man at a certain bar, if over the course of X amount of gigs you are attracting more and more people, the bar makes more, you can ask for more. It's just how it works. Everything Terence has said is true BUT if you follow his advise, your going to do a lot of playing at home instead of having fun entertaining people. I play music for fun and to show off my skills. If you only play music to make money.....well good luck.
Everything Terence says makes sense, but it's also down to the specifics of your level of playing, your connections, the instrument you are playing, the supply and demand (of bands, gigs, musicians) in your area. It's easy to say "don't play low paying gigs", but most of the time the choice you have is not "high paying gigs" vs "low paying gigs". It's more like "low paying gigs" or "no gigs".
❤ This is true. When I was in college taking a web design course my professor warned us all not to do a $100 dollar website. For all the same reasons you just stated.
It's the same with my job as a network engineer. It's difficult, stressful. Yet I was over a barrel and had to work cheap. I felt horrible about myself. I also knew that I was helping to kill the market for my colleagues.
Now when I'm asked what I want in terms of salary, I don't lowball it. I ask for a decent wage. That makes my employer value me more. It also puts a cushion between me and imminent poverty. Thank you for the great video!
Solid info.. thank you ☕🎸
This is all environmentally dependent. In my town, I do predominantly Gospel music. $100 gigs with no rehearsal (because most churches do the same songs) will actually keep the bills paid if you already have an anchor Gig. I just say. Play with people you love. and Do what makes you happy, cause that pays in terms of health!
great points here- more musicians should take this advice...the more time, effort, and experience you have, the more money you should be able to command (which in turn, benefits other musicians as well)...i also recommend coming up with a "base-line" pay that you can negotiate from to still make a solid paycheck from the gig- an amount that provides wiggle-room to secure a gig without it becoming a wash for you...
What planet is this where club owners are so freely spending money on entertainment? If you have a popular act with a guaranteed local draw, not settling for peanuts might work fine and everyone will pay the rate. Even in a big city, however, there are only so many acts that catch a real following. They are obviously good, entertaining and financially worth the rate as they draw a crowd and don't depend on club regulars. It's still true that not too many people go out on a Tuesday when they have to work at 8:00 the next morning.
Same problems in Europe.
1) you can make a calculation and obviously decide not to play for 100$ (too many expenses).
2) you can ignore it and play for less or for free (your business if you can live or not with that Money).
3) UNDERSTAND THE REAL PROBLEM : people do not require good music anymore and don't have much money to see gigs every week.
If clients seem not to look for good music, your music will be paid less and less and less. In addition, you Will have to face other countries' musicians, Who play for less Money and with a big smile on their face.
There are musicians, Who come from Africa or East Europe, Who play for music agencies for less than 60$ per gig.
So, you, as a musician, can Say "no", but the fact Is that world will go on without you.
So, if we really want to save musicians and good music, there has to be a law that helps us more, and people should begin to listen to good music again...very tricky mission
Add to all this the old Economics reality of "supply and demand". Music is a recreational activity and regular "musicians" are resultedly "a dime a dozen". Taylor Swift and Brad Paisley are "price setters", everyone else are "price takers".
you lost me at "rehearsal"
Thank you Terence 🙏🏼. This is so necessary to hear. For everyone. Thank my you.
This video could be really applied to the construction industry. When i was in it i worked for less than $100 a day most were at the exact $100 mark i made a joke about it the other day to a friend who is still in the construction industry and he said they at least get $200 now so at least in the last 10 years they doubled down. This is a great viewpoint and great video awesome job Terence!
Well said. I had to stop doing those gigs as well. I don't even take the gig unless there is something that will benefit me on the other end of getting paid such a low amount. I have been playing for over 35+ years and I value my time more than that 100 dollars that will be gone in an instant. Great info.
So one thing that musicians like to leave out when they are bitching about not getting paid much from gigs is are they actually able to sell enough tickets to warrant their particular pay. So if a band is wanting to leave with each member being paid at minimum $100 each, can that band sell enough tickets for that. If the answer is no, then they should expect not to get paid that much. As a band, you are only worth your ticket sales to that venue.
Obviously, if you are just a gun for hire (like what most of the points in this video are about) then it's not your job to bring people and sell tickets. So if you want more money as that hired gun, then you should be networking and making friends with bigger bands that have larger draws who can afford to pay you more of what you're worth
@@jimcrew5348 That's great that you and your band are in a much better spot and being able to play better gigs. Especially gigs that don't require you to bring people. And in those I know you're able to make much more.
That's also the thing, if you are an average or below average band, then you get paid accordingly. And yeah, I wholeheartedly don't expect random people to show up and pay a cover to see a band they never heard of. So it's up to the band to promote accordingly and get their own people there at the show. So if the band can't bring in their own people then they shouldn't be paid. The days of people just showing up to random local shows are over.
I don't sell tickets. It's a trap. I'll let ppl know what I'm doing, post on social media, and invite ppl; but I stop short at selling tickets. It's a trap!
@@robertantonvlogs One should never pay to play. And some of those pre-sale ticket venues can be scams. So whether you sell tickets in advance or not, the point is you're only worth how many people paid to get in and/or spent money at the bar.
@@robertantonvlogs If the venue is demanding you sell tickets in order to play there, yes, that's BS. But I know when we're playing in the UK, we depend on advance ticket sales to see how the venue is going to work out. If sales haven't been good enough two weeks before the show, we know we have to really work that area to boost sales (targeted FB ads, personal appearances, etc.) Plus, when people buy tickets, they generally show up no matter what - bad weather, traffic, etc. It's nice to know going in that you'll have a good turnout.
@@russellalexander8582 Have at it. Do you have video of your band?
great topic. even today I got into a sad argue with a friend musician about this..and unfortunately sometimes there just no way of changing someone's mind.
@8:30 that’s gotta be experience talking because I know that pain too well.
I love this video it is long overdue nothing but the truth and thank you so much
Except it's not even close to the truth.
The truth is most musicians would be stoked to even be offered $100, and most people who play $100 gigs for money, are not spending 12+ hours on the gig....
@@dijonjohn1011 You looking at just a gig it self I am talking about when you have to use $100 to go to five rehearsals and plus the gig that is not enough money this video is nothing but the truth because a lot of musicians get underpaid and put in triple the work no matter how many hours
I think the trick is to be so good that you're turning down gigs because you're already too busy gigging. I have the feeling that a lot of musicians want to perform for people before they can really play well. The audience can tell the difference, and if you can play, and perform for enough people, you can get that following that enables you to charge more.
That said, I agree with everything you said. I would just supplement it by adding that musicians need to pay their dues in the shed and by maybe taking a few gigs for less than they'd like in the very beginning. It's better to take a gig than to sit on the couch wondering why bars won't pay you more.
My solution: I do solo gigs, so I will continue to do $100 gigs - that's the minimum amount that I'll leave the house for. No rehearsal needed, no bandmates to pay and I make well over minimum wage.
Keep on goin and you will make 100$ gigs in ten years ! Imagine, you do the job of 5 persons ! You should charge, at least, 5 times 100$ !! MY SOLUTION !!
@@alexisarbour When I say "solo gig", I mean that I don't play with other musicians, I do it all myself. Nobody to share money with. Low overhead. Congrats on watching the video, but it does not apply to every musician. I also said that 100 bucks is " the minimum amount that I'll leave the house for", which means that most of my gigs are for MORE than $100, but thanks for playing.
My thoughts exactly, you sir are a smart man!
@@ChrisHardyWorld Got it Chris ! And the first time !! See I've got the timing !!!
Chris Hardy World he means $100 per person - guess you didn’t watch the video
A friend that was doing no-pay gigs for musical theater tried to bring me into that, no pay, no way.
He wouldn't hear it when I told him he was hurting himself and those that he took the jobs from. Said it would give us exposure that we needed. What BS.
With youtube we all have worldwide exposure. I have business cards with my youtube music channel on them. Plenty of exposure there.
I used to have an experience doing gigs while my dad was still alive back then. Yes, we played some rock and roll songs, classic love songs, and The Beatles every Saturday evening in a lounge hotel. But, we ended up getting paid from $50 to $100 maximum. Just imagine, a nice 5 star hotel yet the management paid us $50 to $100 every Saturday.
That's when I realized: It's great doing a gig for people whether outdoors or indoors but NEVER expect a high pay from an establishment.
Then (decades later), I have this churchmate of mine, a teenager, said, "I want to do gigs for restaurants or bars! I want to play music!". I can see his enthusiasm but at the same time, I gave him a dose of reality (not to discourage him but to advice him a reality check). And this is exactly what I told this guy:
"It's great doing a gig for people whether outdoors or indoors but NEVER expect a high pay from an establishment."
He took my advice seriously and he focused himself more on his studies yet I told him, "But don't stop playing music that you love. Keep playing!"
I get that this 100$ gig thing is a metaphor. But it does not even come to close to what my band makes. We generally make maybe 20-50$ per gig. Mainly because we live in Upstate NY where most of the promoters are greedy with there money. The problem with wanting to except more cash or asking for more money is that you will not be booked any shows unless you comply with these promoter's terms. Which is to get paid like shit. It's hard because as a Musician who has been playing shows for years I do not know what to do to get paid properly.
I work in and out of O.C. Ca.All club managers care about is your following. HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN YOU BRING IN. Dosen't matter how good you are are how much time you put into preparation. That,is the bottom line.
Coming in way late... well, first, thank you for being an adult. Too many YT's undermine their credibility by dressing like a kid, talking like a kid, stupid hats, etc. I'm not talking about acting white, I'm talking about being a grown-up and being credible. I'm an old man now and it really bothers me when some 20 or even 30-something chats me up like I'm his peer, his homeboy from around the way. I am, hopefully, never too old to learn but, if you want to teach me something, position yourself from a place of reasoned authority, which you have done without abandoning who you are in exchange. Thank you for not wearing a stupid hat.
Twenty minutes per song? I salute you, sir. I was constantly pulling al-nighters.
I paid sessions people $100 back in 1985 to learn two songs. Two EASY songs. To think this still goes on today and, 30 songs? C’mon. Stop, now.
Beyond that, I feel like maybe you've been trolling me for 30 years because you've reiterated things I've been saying for decades. Mr. Fisher, if you hang around people who treat you as if you’re nothing, sooner or later you yourself will begin to believe it.
I've dealt mostly with the black church, which routinely exploits people who serve in music ministry. Paradoxically, music ministry is THE unparalleled economic engine for the black church. Yet there is no parity, no profit sharing.
Our tradition creates an infinite number of pageants: Women’s Day and Usher’s Annual Day, annual celebrations of the church itself. The pastor is routinely feted on his anniversary and often lavished with financial gifts, offerings collected at a service or even a week or, in cases I’ve known, a MONTH of services. Services powered by music ministry carried out by volunteer choirs and musicians who rely heavily on the one or two paid professional or semi-professional musicians who are almost always burdened by extra events they never contracted for and who are almost never similarly rewarded and who enjoy no royalty percentage from this income, forcing them into side hustles in clubs or day jobs. Most musicians I knew were broke all the time, desperate for that hundred bucks. Or they were most certainly tired all the time, fighting with the wife or husband all the time, because of the stress imposed by their service to this ministry.
Besides this being unbiblical (1 Chronicles 9:33), it certainly is unethical, which places the church out of fellowship with Christ and disturbs its communion with the Holy Spirit.
I enjoy your work, Mr. Fisher, and appreciate your contribution.
I agree with everything this guy says! However the reality is, at least in the market I'm in, is venues cannot afford to pay more! The bars are either not large enough to hold enough people to be able to turn a profit while paying more than $100 per person or they cannot charge enough because of the local economy. And let's face it there is always going to be that group that will play for beer and "exposure"!
yes jerry...this guy doesnt get it.... you wont play for 100...someone else will..... just never quit your day job.... we all starve at this business...so.... can this guy show me gigs i;ll get 200 right now....what a joke
Great video and great points. However, I think being selective in which gigs you accept is the key. Just accepting gigs for $100 to play some awful music that's been played a thousand times may not be worth it. But if you are playing original music that soothes your soul you may want to accept them in order to pay a bill or two. $100 will pay my cellphone bill. Two $100 gigs will pay my cell bill and my car insurance for the month. So I take this advice to heart but I also take it with a grain of salt. I'd much rather play two $100 gigs in a month rather than work some menial job. Yes, I AM worth waaaaayy more than $100 per gig. My value is at least 10 times that. But every now and then you may have to take those kinds of gigs to make ends meet. I also think it has to do with the market you live in. If you live in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta etc... There will probably be more opportunities for higher paying gigs than if you live Jackson, Mississippi or Butte, Montana. With that said, I've also made the decision to NOT accept every $100 gig that comes my way. Lately I've been turning down a lot of those gigs. Good video Terence Fisher... Thanks for the reminder!
I never do $100 gigs and I think I suck as a musician. I look cool and that’s about it.
This needs to be said! Thanks for posting!
answer:
1. 3:34 60% delivery
2. 4:15 market depreciation : to fight market depreciation
3. 5:31 it determines your value
4. 6:35 compliance and complacency
5. 7:20 you start to feel less valuable
This was my policy about my work as a real estate agent. I knew how much effort I was going to put into marketing a property. I knew what my company would do to give listings the widest possible exposure. I knew that after procuring a ready, willing and able buyer that I would continue to service the transaction to closing. This was during the late 90s and into the 2000s. I always asked for 7% after my listing presentation that would show all that they were getting for their money. I was regularly recognized for procuring the most such listings each region in my quarter.
This was during the period when Foxton's was touting their 2% listing commission rate. Foxton's was heavily capitalized and their salespersons were salaried employees versus the rest of the industry, nearly all of which employed their salespersons as independent contractors, sharing sales commissions on their work with their brokers. My manager at the time kept telling us to not sweat the threat. He explained that a brokerage breaks even operating with an average 5% commission. This was without the amount of investment in marketing that our company gave. Eventually, we began to love when Foxton's got a listing, because when the listing expired, the sellers almost always turned to us or brokerages similar to us. One major difference was the quantity and quality of service. Just a few, less than five years later, I was at a different company, and received an email from my manager at the former brokerage. It included a picture of a flat-bed tow truck fully loaded with the green and yellow Cooper Minis that were Foxton's trademark being hauled off to bankruptcy auction.
A quality venue who wants to grow their clientele will recognize the correlation between the quality of entertainer and the quality and quantity of venue patrons. They will already know that one gets what one pays for and will be ready to pay for what they want. Yes, they will try to get it at the lowest price possible, but they will not let what they know to be higher quality entertainment go down the street to their competitor and grow that business.
Did I take listings at less than 7%? Yes. Did I take some at 6%, my brokerage's standard minimum? Yes. Did I take some at less than 6% with my manager's approval? Kicking and screaming, and rarely, yes. However, what would I get if I joined the chorus singing, "I'll Do It For Less!", and started at 5% as so many of my competitors did? It was not always easy, but I knew what my services were worth. By the way, low priced properties were listed at a flat fee to ensure that the transaction would be worth the while of agents who would bring a buyer. In the big picture, I was not only placing a high value on my work, but on my competitors as well.
Indianapolis and Florida are still at 100 per man for the last 20 years! Club bar work has never paid well.
Yep. All this is true! next video - how to get the well-paid gigs !! Thanks Terence :)
I remember reading about Buck Owens and Merle Haggard making 50$ a night in 1962 at their first gigs in Bakersfield. I'm like, that's $400 bucks in today's money!
In today's world most Bars can't afford to hire a band at todays reasonable prices, I started playing bars in 1964 and actually played a gig with Buck Owens in San Leandro, Calif. and he paid me $ 100.00 for 3 hours, that same bar can;t even afford a four piece local band these days. More musicians need to go actually run a Bar and see what the math is. music is supposed to make us do well in MATH, somehow it does not for most. 2+2 seems to come up 3 every time.
Many valid points. I still do them but not like I was before. I just say no if I don't want to do them and if it's not worth my time. I play for churches for the most part but never demand money. If I feel the price is not worth my time I just say no but there are exceptions. Now that I have a family sometimes it's just not worth the $100 to take away time from them.
Yeah man, this is really what it's all about...figuring out what works best for you, but also being aware.!
This guy deserves more credit
No! He gets exactly what he deserves.
First of all, rehearsals are nonsense for cover gigs. If it's an original band, and there AREN'T any charts, then IF you have the time, sure, ONE rehearsal. As a bandleader, I hate rehearsals. I expect players to know the songs, show up, and play. Mistakes happen, and one or twenty rehearsals isn't going to stop that. But know the material. If we tour, that's a bit different, but even then it should be a limited number of full band rehearsals (one on one or section rehearsals are preferable).
Two - I have a scale on taking gigs. One to ten:
How fun will it be?
Is the pay acceptable?
Will it help my career?
Any gig that doesn't score at least "15" gets turned down.
Three - for any original band, it's a tougher haul. Venues are not patrons of the arts. They are businesses that have a certain amount they need to make to stay in business. An acquaintance opened a venue in a very popular area, with three other partners. All of them are musicians, and he owns a recording studio. They got a great sound system, advertised, and booked local original acts.
They almost went bankrupt.
After six months, they started having tribute bands. Their pay for original acts plummeted unless there was a great turnout. They stopped booking certain kinds of music completely. And I can't blame them - they risked everything, and almost didn't make it.
Last point - speaking of perceived worth, anywhere you play MUST charge a cover. $5. $10. $25. Depending on your following ($5 for limited following, etc.). Why? Because when you play at places that don't charge, your perceived worth is NOTHING. You aren't worth paying for to see. And when you want to play a venue that charges a cover, they will see that you played Joe's Dump-and-Drunk last week with no cover. So how can they justify charging patrons when you'll just play another dive with no cover next week? It's not so much the $100 per man, which (granted) sucks. It's more of what your audience thinks your band is worth.
I was talking with a band leader for a very successful local cover band several months ago. He is very smart about his marketing and booking and with the money he's making from his band playing twice a week he had a custom home built in Northern California. On average his band members will make $3k a month each for playing some cheesy cover tunes doing the casino circuit, private events, local restaurants, etc.. It can be done. NO rehearsals! He sends the songs out to everyone to do their homework then, just show up and play.
@@mckaigg That's true. I played the wedding/bar-bat mitzvah/society circuit for years. $4 - 5K a night for a quintet wasn't unusual (although most of the players didn't get that - the agency did). And you can sure charge at least $2k a night now for a sextet playing cheesy cover tunes, in the right venues - like the ones you mentioned. Places that don't need music, but they feel it adds to the ambience. They don't mind paying more, because they already have a steady source of income.
And, if that's what you want out of playing music, you should do that (not you, personally, I mean people who do that). Like people in tribute bands who don't mind pretending to be someone else for a living. You play, you have some fun, you get paid, and that's all you need.
But from my own experience - when you start not to give a crap anymore, when you don't care about the audience, or the gig, or find yourself getting drunk AND stoned just to do the set, it's probably time to look for something that makes you happier. As they say, your mileage will vary.
I agree with this though. I charge about $150 Australian per hour which is the industry rate. However most venues wont pay that; or wont book you again if the turnout is poor; or they only offer door deals.
If you play original songs you can get about $3 per song per performance through live performance returns.
Hey Terence - I hit like, the bell, and the subscribe button: I love your delivery, the production, and of course the tantalizing title :-)
I hear every point you made, and in my opinion it lacks empathy for how very different live music opportunities are across different areas. I know you made this before the pandemic, but the biz is the biz and the core values I think you missed held true right through it. To your points:
#1 - I'd argue anyone who shows up at a live music gig and brings 60% effort should most definititely find something else to do - because you're not cut out for the music biz. It's 110% anytime you're in front of an audience - the key to great performers is what they do when they're NOT at their best - like when they're only making $100 for the gig.
#2 - throughout world history, market value has RARELY been set by employees demanding higher wages, but it almost always is set by what consumers demand. Here in Florida, there are no shortage of "re-located" musicians who are looking forward to retirement. That has a BIG impact on what that market can bear, especially when 4 or 5 of them show up willing to play a gig for free meals and drinks for their spouses. In NYC, bands PAY the venues to play. You have to start somewhere and for most that means starting at the bottom of the pay scale.
#3 - each artist earns his value, and sadly in the real world that could be less than $100/gig. I find most of the musicians who bitch about money haven't actually sat down and purchased a drink at any of the potential venues they want to play at. In my opinion, it's bad to encourage potential live musicians to stay home and pout until the music fairly puts a $100 bill under their pillow - because that means they miss out on the very experience of how to get better better and add value to their brand - to me that's a big mistake that guarantees failure in the music biz.
#4 - compliance and complacency are definitely factors that affect live music, but money is a small part of it. You want to make more money? Don't play the same 40 songs in the same order every night. Invest in equipment that will make your product better - equipment which is not always the shiny new guitar, keyboard, or drum you think it would be cool to have. Sometimes, it's a PA, light show, advertising, swag, things that other start up businesses do every single day.
#5 - if you assign your personal "value" based on how much you get for a gig, you should most definitely find something else to do because you're not cut out for the music biz. The real questions you should ask sound more like "what do I need to do to earn a living playing music?", "How do I get to tour the world on someone else's money?" - goals and dreams like that. Maybe that means taking steady gigs on weeknights for less than $100 and figuring out how you can grow those gigs into better ones. Learn what makes people want to tip, learning of other opportunities that avail themselves because you played those gigs...
Signed - the guy who plays gigs that pay more AND less than $100 every single week, for decades.
3 yrs later, beginners are dying for exposure, at 60 yrs old now i would still do it for the thrill of being on stage, even a dive bar, but i agree with everything you are saying
Man! Now here is where I totally agree 100% with Terence. He is so right it hurts.
And let's not forget that the day of the gig the bass player will call you to see if he can borrow a bass because his is in the "shop" .....the pawn shop. And the singer needs to borrow a mic stand and the other guitarist plays like Larry Carlton but is so absent minded you know to just bring him a tuner and a strap.
And the club has no lights so ya better bring some because everyone else is so caught up with having the baddest new axe they never considered lights.
Listen up kids. Me and Terence might not always agree but this is solid advice.
Thank you Terence🙏♾️♥️
Thanks for the info Terence! I can clearly see that you are appealing to those who really want to make a living as a full time musician. This is not for the hobbyist mindset.... Being happy to receive $100 for something that you've done your whole life or for a considerable amount of time, shows that you have a hobbyist mentality.. you cannot make a living off of that kind of pay. There are levels to everything folks! The $100 gig is the lowest aiming target to shoot for. I don't think it's arrogant to say that you're worth more than the norm (given you are a good musician and you really have something to offer). There are a lot of variants to this but the message is clear as a bell to me! A lot of your information has helped me to be full time now. Thanks again and keep them coming!
Well said man!!!
Musicians are a dime a dozen. The supply of venues is considerably lower than the supply of musicians.
This is amazing ! I found some real value in this video, you just earned another sub. Peace brother
I knew he was going to start with the numbers. Applying logic to the music business is like trying to teach a pig to sing. A complete waste of time. I used to work a steady gig when there was an actual Musicians Union here in SoCal. Those days are long gone and the cutthroat mentality of the clubs,restaurants and bands coming up is definitely a hill to climb. What I've learned from fellow players is take any gig you can. Playing music is a war of attrition. Which means keep playing no matter what. As they say talent + opportunity equals success. Eventually as I have you'll come across a lucrative gig, perhaps on a steady basis. As a band leader I built a relationship with the city here and play and will be playing the harbour & beaches when the lockdown is over. So if you're expecting the music business to be fair you're in the wrong business. Be a Warrior and play no matter what.
I would have to completely disagree with this! The "take any gig you can" mentality is the very thing that prevents opportunity. This argument is like making an argument to play the lottery as many times as you can so that you greaten your chances of winning. This doesn't make much sense in this case, but it's even worse when it applies to opportunities.
At least the lottery is fixed in terms of numbers. opportunities are mostly arbitrary in the case you are talking about.
However, opportunities are created, not necessarily something you just stumble upon. Furthermore...clubs and such aren't the sole places for bands and musicians. There are plenty of other places in which bands can branch out that are far more lucrative than a typical club.
Perception is Reality …. Great advice, well presented.
the problem in my area is there are many "artist/musicians" that are willing to either perform for free or for free beer to get exposure for their music which is quite, blasé and/or media-Oka. i come along and get the line of bs from the club owner that this other guy performed for free so i should too. so usually my closing line is they should get that other guy and stop wasting my time.
another sleezy move club owners make is, at the conclusion of the gig, they lay the line of crap that we didn't draw a big enough crowd and therefor pay us less - a lot less than what was originally agreed upon. me: "do you do that with your bar tenders and waitress too?"
btw, if you mention contract they won't hire you.
but, yea. the artists who are willing to perform for free are a big problem. it screws everyone else.
I tell my students and kids at clinics that the the worse the music is the more money you make and the better the music is the less money you make. The are commercial gigs and there are cultural gigs. Commercial gigs should and do pay better money. Cultural gigs (jazz gigs and music you love to play) usually pay less.. A jazz big band gig is fun to play but with 16 people in the band hard to pay for. I still do big band jazz gigs that pay $50.. You've heard the phrase "starving artist"? That kind of defines the "cultural musician" .Someone who plays the music he loves for short bread. I do a lot of free rehearsals with what some people call kicks bands. I'm a trumpet player and we have to keep our chops up. " Free Lance" musicians do a lot of different type and paying gigs. We play shows, dances, party's, studio film dates and jazz gigs. It all comes back to my opening statement . Shows and dances and party's and studio dates pay well but the music is not fun to play or even listen to. Jazz gigs pay less but it the music we love to play and listen to and for the cultural musicians the reason we got into music in the first place.
There are way too many musicians competing for the few gigs which exist.
Well said Terence 💯👌
I was asked to play at a church for the anniversary service....they had two long services after the service the pastor and his wife gave me a check for 50 funky dollars and had the nerve to smile like they was doing something
Excellent my dude. I’m 2 years new to TX and my experience here is that this is a epidemic. This mentality undermines advanced working players like me. It’s taught Church’s to pay musicians minimally, low balling us to death during contract negotiations. It’s to the point that few churches choose quality over perceived feasibility. Churches choose under qualified, under developed musicians paying them crumbs and when the qualified shows up $400-$600 (which should be standard here) sounds outrageous. Imma product of the Bay Area. Our version of player quality control is “Be dope or be clowned every time you hit a key”. Average where I’m gets you laughed out of town. That mentality has made us a region of “head hunters”. Musicians who for a while only love to rip the next musicians head off. I’m not sure what it will take for this particular region to except and implement your advice but this 💩 is killing the working musicians and it’s inferiating. Stop existing as less 🎶🎼 Family
Churches won't pay because crooked ass pastors and deacons are stealing all the money. My pastor got caught embellishing and the church shut down. When he wasn't stealing he was banging all the underaged girls in the choir and all the women in the congregation. A real man of Christ.
The bottom line is leverage. If you're a known asset, you can demand a higher price. If you're a nobody, the venue has all the control. It's a wise expense for a professional to invest in marketing to get more known.
We were doing 100 per band member gigs back in the early 1980's when premium cocktails cost 2.50-3.00.My opinion,the reasons why bands starting getting less work and money is this.D.J.'s took over because they starting playing the cover songs that people wanted to hear,and bands couldn't or didn't want to play those songs.Also,the performance quality of bands went down so there basically was no difference between watching a live band and listening to a D.J.The D.J.wins because he/she has less personnel overhead and a lower act cost...
I don't play for money, I do it for excitement and the endorphins. In the early 90's I was making $550 to $900 a show but they were 2000+ audience. If I get paid enough to cover my gas, I'm ok with that.
And plus people need to stop talking about music like its plumbing or electrical work or being an I.T. specialist. It's not. Good luck to you.
Rudi: the reference is to music being a Skilled trade or profession, worthy of professional wages and compensation for the many many years of schooling, and practice and learning music to be employable. The comparison is to emphasize the amount of money the Plumbers, and Electric9ans demand and get, as well as Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors etc. Professionals need to demand professional renumeration or simply don't provide the services.
@@MrStGabrielsbb This video is only for semi professional hacks who play top 40 gigs. Not for actual artists. The other day I played a festival for $150. The festival had Reggie Workman, Winard Harper and Barry Harris on it. I'm a pianist. The excellently tuned grand piano was already there. I showed up. Played for 15 minutes and made the $150. That's how it happens in the real world of music. If some schmuck tries to say " I don't play gigs for $100" he's probably going to price himself right out of it. Especially if he's a semi professional hack who plays top 40... You have to use discretion.
The plumber, the electrician, the doctor, the lawyer when you NEED legal assistance. You can't do without them. Musicians you can do without. Because its not a matter of self esteem or valuing yourself. They can decide to hire a DJ instead of a band. You can decide not to do the party this month. That is the real world of music. Not what you are talking about. You are talking about Simi professionals.
Just made $3000 and major industry contacts stemming from a $100 gig I took with rehearsals last year
Good advice. However, the market pays musicians $100, at least around my area, for bar gigs. You can set your value at whatever you want, but if you tell them you have to have a lot more, they'll just find someone who will do the gig for $100. So I guess if I want to buy groceries it's a day gig for me....I have much better luck with one nighter stuff, but of course that's fewer and farther between. It would be nice if it worked the way you describe, but it doesn't, at least not in my area....
Also, I just did the math and 100 dollars divided by 13 hours is about $7.69. In NYC, the minumum wage is $15 dollars per hour! So that means you would be being paid half of minimum wage!!! Wow. When you probably been a musician for over 20, maybe 25 years or more..... that's so crazy :( What you said about how accepting low paid gigs also affects musicians is soooo true. It's like, if we ALL started saying no to low paying gigs, venues, clubs, etc... would have NO CHOICE but to pay us more.... And since when do artists look at the status quo and just say, "yeah ok, that's fine...". If anything, we of all people should be trying to change the status quo if we don't agree with it! :)
I play in a jazzy trio with some parameters. Being a hired gun or in a dedicated band are two different things for sure. I believe you can only get better as a musician if you play live with what you have been working on in private We used to rehearse now we send loops and tracks to each other and play at the gig. We have learned how to “play together”which makes it work. We are picky now about what gigs to take but we stay busy even with our day jobs.😂
Curious: I'm playing almost exclusively original material by friends and colleagues who's music i care about; the gigs are never "4 hour club date style" gigs; after the initial rehearsal (before the first gig) we almost never rehearse again, and I do 2 - 5 of these a week. They're ALL $100 gigs.... venues won't pay more. We all make the same amount - leader/composer, other players, many of whom are local a-listers. (Meanwhile, when I do get called for the bigger 4 hour club date style gigs, my base price is $650.) So I'm not sure what you're saying is applicable across the board.... we all have to make choices. I choose creative music which pays me back in many other ways besides money you dig. :)
Very well said sir! I think many musicians should see/hear that!
$100 gigs can lead to $350+ gigs. As a musician, manager and band owner, I originally felt on the defensive with this video, because I'm the brotha' that is paying the $100 to each musician for a cover gig including myself. Local live music venues, such as restaurants and bars, can NOT pay $1500+ a night. Which is why DJ's have killed off a ton of live music venues around Boston. Cheaper to put on Spotify than hire a band. The question: Is your phone ringing off the hook with high paid gigs? If not, be careful what you shit on. I'll take $100 over $0 for the night. The flaw with your time vs. pay formula is that most of the songs that a musician has to learn can earn way more than $100. You can not think short term. Once a musician learns that song, the work is done! The new songs are now your repertoire and you can EARN & BUILD money with that knowledge. FUTURE $100 gigs are now easy and effortless. Put in the work once and now you capitalize on that time spent with future dates and making a profit. Now you can earn $1000 with 10 easy gigs with songs you already know. You are now easily hired and more consistently with minimal effort on your part. Once my musicians have songs down, there is no need for rehearsals. We can gig on those same 30-60 songs for the year and make money with minimal effort because it's 2nd nature.
I love gigging, it's recreational for me. $100 is just a bonus!
Love that opening comment “So your still doing $100 gigs?? Well that’s probably why your a broke musician!”
This is so true!!! Not only does it affect the musician but it also waters down the venue booking for other working musicians. A lot of places are gonna start saying well so and so plays for $300 cheaper! We’re gonna go with him! 🤦🏽♂️
New unknown local bands that are just starting out are not exactly in a position to command top dollar for gigs. So we play for whatever we can get until we have a solid reputation. We can then ask for the kind of money that we want to make. Having a large number of bands in a small area with a small number of live music venues, we can’t be too picky about what we’re paid with the competition.
Musicians are "a dime a dozen". It's all about supply and demand.
@@johnc.8298 Right. Some are better than others and the cream rises to the top.
I just watched Damien keyes video saying they drove from France to whales for 200 quid but it was to 600 people and from that one gig they were booked up.... I hear you, but cracking into the scene is so friggin hard.... My bands so good it really is but all i get is slammed doors.
This is a great video. Maybe you can release one that explains how to assess personal value, this is the rub. Some musicians, might only be worth 100 dollar gigs and might end up pricing themselves out of work, by overcharging. It can be very difficult, to accurately self-assess worth.
Thanks a lot! Check the channel bro. I have quite a few videos addressing this very thing...
You can make more busking in an hour than that
I’m in a 4 person cover band. We play the local bars…. The going rate is $400 for 3 sets for 4 hrs including breaks. Each of us gets $100. If we don’t accept these $400 gigs there are 30 bands behind us that will. So how do we increase our worth/pay?
I can respect the views of this video. However, unfortunately pushing the status quo, is only possible if you get the majority to push back as well. The issue isn’t just the musicians, it’s also the talent buyers (bar owners primarily) who don’t see the value in paying more for bands to play.
What's worse is clubs making bands PAY to play. Bar owners who were once musicians should know better....
In a perfect world yes.