Nicely done, Ryan. As a long time researcher (40 years) into Book of Mormon geography, I find your conclusions not only plausible, but probable. I would be interested in seeing more detail as you further develop your thesis. Thanks.
Thanks Anthony, I've also enjoyed a lot of your research as well. Really getting into plasma cosmology etc. you're Joshua's long day videos were cool too. thanks for your interest I'll be doing some more videos pretty soon just been very busy.
Anthony Larson Absolutely no convincing. Poor Lamanites were freezing their rear. Going to war with only a cloth around their loins. So naive. Please don't try too hard.
Susannah Oldfield Funny enough it would have been colder during the alleged timeline. Plus if you really want horses in the Book of Mormon it better take place at least 10000BC. It was really cold then!
very good info. i think you did a very good job on this. I bet this took a lot of work to do. I really appreciate soending your time to make this video.
I have been studying this out since the mid 90s as I found amazing places to see in the Mississippi river valley of Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Missouri. It started with my mission president from the Minneapolis Minnesota mission and traveling over the years through the heartland. As time has proceeded I have found amazing evidence that has come forth out of the ground as prophesied. Great presentation!
Book of Mormon geography has proved perplexing when seen through our 21st century eyes. Yourmaps and analyses are helpful. Thank you for posting this, and for revealing research on the Hopewell people. Truly there is no substitute for good old fashioned research, especially when helping reveal scriptures and placing them into historical and archaeological context. Wherever these people were, we know they worshipped Jesus Christ then fell away, became full of pride and selfishness, and were overcome and destroyed. The spiritual message has greater meaning each day in an increasingly toxic American culture. We need above all to heed that message.
Good work! I love it! I'm a convert to the church and when I read the 'The Church History Fulness In Times' TWICE! And walked into an Institute Of Religion class with a map of the Book Of Mormon lands in Central America! I was like, 'Uhmmmmm something is wrong here!' It just didn't and never made sense no matter how members explained it to me! Now this. Makes sense!
Thanks, the Mesoamerican model always left me scratching my head too, so I had to find out the truth. stay posted, I'll be releasing some more Book of Mormon geography videos pretty soon. Everything I have found so far fits in this map.
What makes sense is, the "moundbuilders" of the Ohio region collaborate and are accounted for in the BOM. A study of Alma 63:4-9 and Helaman 3:3-9 coupled with Alma 22, establishes the bases for Nephites being in Ohio and all across the choice north country; according to these verses, many groups of very large numbers of Nephites and converted Lamanites, left Zarahemla & Bountiful to migrate to the choice land in the north country, as Mormon called it, where a New Jerusalem would one day be built. Also keep in mind, according to these verses, many of these groups built ships launching them in a sea, sailing north away from the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful. Realize, each additional group would need to travel further into the north country to inherit unsettled land; the last group Mormon tells us about in Helaman 3, even traveled an exceedingly great distance to inherit land and discovered large bodies of water (these are most likely the freshwater Great Lakes, not seas). So, in addition to a land route for migration, there is also a sea they could sail north away from Zarahemla & Bountiful; and no, it's not an extra large river, Mormon knows the difference between a river and a sea and he is consistent in his use of the terms, he never mixes them. Mormon only briefly mentions these people and tells us they also have many records, he doesn't share their stories with us, but lets us know there is a large record of their history; he briefly lets us know of their existence, that they left Zarahemla & Bountiful to go inherit land in the north country; Mormon also briefly mentions they had many of the same issues as the Nephites in Zarahemla & Bountiful. So yes there will be evidence of Nephites and Lamanites all across the north country as far north as at least the Great Lakes. And when Joseph says he walked the plains of the Nephites, he technically did; just not the plains of the Nephites in lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful. These verses, also set the stage, for a converted Lamanite warrior defending his people in the last struggles with the Lamanites, aka Zelph. So both of Joseph's claims collaborate the BOM narrative perfectly. It's all accounted for in the Book. According to the BOM, Nephites basically covered the entire North continent, even outside the main BOM lands of the storyline prophets of Zarahemla & Bountiful. If any proof of Nephites are discovered anywhere on the continent, guess what, the Book's narration accounts for it; it's all there, within the pages of the Book. There are some absolute cornerstones that must fit without mental gymnastics or ignoring altogether, when placing the BOM lands where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, aka Bountiful & Zarahemla. Here's one example: By these verses (Alma 22, Alma 63, Helaman 3) we learn, there is a sea between Zarahemla and the land of New Jerusalem. We also learn from at least one of the groups, there is an exceedingly far away destination of very large bodies of water in the north country (which are not referred to as seas). Hmmm, which poses the question, if any of the narrow strips of land between any of the Great Lakes, as supposed by some, is the 'narrow neck of land', which is mentioned in the BOM near Zarahemla, where they left from, and if any one of the Great Lakes is the "sea" they sailed across to get to the north country, where would that place the New Jerusalem?? (Canada). The thought makes reason stare. After studying the BOM and all other statements declared or published by Joseph; when it comes to the placing the location of Zarahemla and what makes sense; I believe what Joseph, John Taylor, & Wilford Woodruff (all three would be presidents of the Church; three high-powered witnesses) believed, and published as editors of the Times & Seasons Oct 1, 1842 titled Zarahemla. When they clearly and boldly declared the city Zarahemla was in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala (known to them on published maps available, in 1825 & 1835, note, the borders of Guatemala have shrunk since then). In their published pronouncement, they quote Alma 22 in support of their claim. I'm pretty sure Joseph had tremendous insights and was the expert on the Book of Mormon. They do not correlate any find of ruins or currently named cities as the exact city of Zarahemla; only that Zarahemla is in the borders of Guatemala known to them at the time of publication. If that's the case, the narrative of the BOM fits perfectly; placing the future New Jerusalem, north of Zarahemla and in the "heartland" of the current United States of America. That makes perfect sense and fits the narrative perfectly. This 1842 editorial is simply wonderful, notice how they clarify the city Zarahemla as the one burnt at the time of the Lord's crucifixion; why would they need to specify the one burnt at the Savior's crucifixion; isn't there only one Zarahemla? Because, they knew there was a different, modern city, with the name of Zarahemla, developed by the Latter-day saint across the river from Nauvoo. Joseph, John, & Wilford wanted to clarify so no one was confused by the two different cities with the name of Zarahemla. Also, in the same edition of the T&S, the editors refute the claim of conspiring men that Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is no longer running things; the editors clearly inform the readers, that this is not the case, and that Joseph is still very much around and in control. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. No need for speculation, Joseph clears this conspiracy up in the same edition of the Zarahemla location declaration. I tend to believe Joseph's side of the story. I'm going with Joseph on this one. The BOM and Joseph collaborate perfectly. Makes sense! Take care!
Wow,this is brilliant, a real testimony builder, and something I can get behind! Awesome job! Having a map like this makes reading the BOM a lot more understandable. Whenever I read it, I had no idea what to think of the lands described and couldn't really form a picture in my head. Tis helps a lot,thanks for all your hard work!
Something else you may not realize regarding the "almost surrounded by water" comment, is that the whole area of northwest Ohio and northeast Indiana, as well as part of southeast Michigan is an area known to to settlers as the Great Black Swamp. They couldn't even travel through there back in those days. They felled trees and made wooden roads before they drained the region and now use it for farmland. The water table is so high that houses in that area don't have to be checked for termites since they can't live underground in such damp conditions. My theory is that back in BOM times, Lake Erie was much higher and maybe this area wasn't a swamp at that time, but part of the lake or "sea". If that's true then it would really be interesting to see a computer generated map of the landscape with Lake Erie higher.
gr8 job..glad i ran across this vid a few yrs ago i watchd as much stuff as i could by wayne may, rod meldrum n bruce porter cuz knew they were correct bout their heartland models tho it seems wayne n rod differd on sum point, which escapes me now but im sure it was merely trivial
Loved the numerical identification during the reading, it made it so much easier to follow along and visualize, thank you for all the work you put into this!
Thank you for your help and time. How great it will be when the general public will no longer be able to deny the truths that will stare them in the face.
Protestant Christian Here, no disrespect intended. I find the BOM to be an interesting story. Love Mormons, nice people, met many. Its the LDS church and its prophets and doctrine which is far to wild, contradictary and unbiblical for me to ever believe. Regardless of my own personal distrust and disagreement with the LDS Church (specifically its founder) I wish you all happy lives. Just hope we can all hug it out when christ returns :)
The Mormon Jesus Christ. A Created being the elder Brother of Lucifer.. One of many Gods.. Conceived by a physical sex act between God the father, and Mary. Atonement happened in the garden of Gethsemane.. ================================================================= The Biblical Jesus Christ. The uncreated God. The one and only eternal son of God. Conceived by the Holy spirit, who supernaturally overshadowed Mary. Atonement was made on the Cross at Calvary.. ================================================================= Which one is true, And I am not a Mormon thank God. ===========================================
Thank you for this fascinating and insightful presentation! You made it so easy for me to follow along, highlighting the locations for us to see as you read Alma 22.
Thank you for this great lecture. Those of our faith who do not speak English are missing some important discoveries in recent years. South American Saints still believe Zarahemla is down here! I wish this would be translated into Portuguese. I'd be willing to help with that.
This video that someone has made is like something he’s done as a hobby. I don’t know why some people get so critical. I’m happy for him, he’s only keeping himself occupied.
The city layout at 17:31 is fascinating. I saw the lamp & Menorah right off the bat before it was identified as such. If that had been found in the Middle East, every scholar would know exactly what it represented. But because it was found in the Americas, they must assume that it means something else.
Yah, since the menorah is mentioned first in the Pentateuch which wasn't composed until after the supposed Lehi party left for the Americas, so they wouldn't have knowledge of it, and the first physical evidence for one is right about 2,000 years ago, there's no reason whatsoever to believe any pre-European conquest structure in the Western Hemisphere is of Jewish origin.
1.5k upvotes and 197 downvotes: with 197 people posting at least 10 negative comments each and the positive comments being basically non-existent ... Perfect illustration of current Saints V Christians Saints find LDS videos, quietly listen to video, upvote video, reads a swarm of negative comments and then flees: "Christians" seek out LDS videos, clearly don't even watch the video, downvote, then spam weak ad hominem baseless attacks without so much as a single citation... "Arise again Zion!"
During the 2020 Pandemic, I am studying the Book of Mormon daily and while using the Internet found so much additional information to enhance my testimony of this Book. I am using a Journaling copy to note thoughts of others, prophets, myself, and at the point in Alma decided I wanted to include a drawing (of my own) of the map of the Americas where this all took place. I found this site. This was much more than I imagined, but I am thrilled to think about the studies that have taken place over the years and conclusions that in ways to increase my testimony of The Book of Mormon . Thank you Ryan and all the other scholars and teachers!!
My family from central Illinois found several arrow heads and an ax head from working farm land with my Uncle. It’s always been a treasure. We always went to the museum of natural history in Springfield, Illinois and learn about the plains Indians. I always thought they were Nephites.
Watch these and particularly pay attention to the tomb of Alexander in southern Illinois - and be prepared to be blown away: ua-cam.com/users/IllinoisCavesvideos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid
Last night (Feb. 4, 2023) I read Alma 22. I had a hard time comprehending where all the lands were that Mormon talked about. As I was saying my prayers, I asked the Lord to help me get a clearer understanding of where these lands were. Today, (Feb. 5, 2023) As I was on UA-cam, I noticed this video by you Ryan. I had previously watched part of it, but I never finished it. I watched it all over again and found the information that I was looking for. So, Ryan, I believe the Lord answered my prayer and led me to your video. Therefore I believe the information in you video is true.
Awesome man! I really do think it is correct. Looking to make some more videos to further prove it. I think most people just casually watch the video and casually read how much 22 are not going to care much about it. But if you really trying to read Alma 22 and try to make a map out of it it can really be a conundrum. But all this information came to me after a lot of thought and prayer as well. Of course I must credit Rod Meldrum and Wayne May for the inspiration as well.
Sorry, but this reading and interpretation of Alma 22 makes no sense. All of the verses need to be read together in context, then we can start putting each of the individual pieces together to get a better idea of the picture as a whole. I appreciate the attempt to put it on a map, but it doesn't match the descriptions at all as described in the text. I watched this other video that created an internal map based solely off of the descriptions found in the text, which I found very helpful and would recommend to anyone interested in Book of Mormon geography. But when we're trying to place Book of Mormon geography on a map, you need to create an internal map first that's based solely off of the descriptions found in the text, then you can start looking for potential locations that match those descriptions. ua-cam.com/video/TO03zqrJrrY/v-deo.htmlsi=ofu2QS7FSP-JCcET
If you understand that the lower Mississippi river probably filled much of the Mississippi Alluvial Valley at the time of the Nephites it's easy to see how it could have been considered a sea west for the Land of Nephi. Johnathan Neville covers this extensively in his book, "Moroni's America". His ideas on this subject can also be found at his website, www.moronisamerica.com/maps/ This link has maps that show the lower Mississippi as "to the sea west" in the land of Nephi and Lake Michigan as the West Sea for the Land Bountiful. I think if you identify the Lower Mississippi as the sea west in the Land of Nephi, or "West Sea, South" (Alma 53:8), the Alma 22 verses fit perfectly.
I am Familiar with the site, in fact i am sure that this video had much influence on his work. I do not believe that the Mississippi basin was flooded to form a "Sea West" . The sites along the river have been dated to Book of Mormon times including Poverty Point dating to about 1500 BC.
Very interesting. I'm fascinated by the different theories of where the Book of Mormon took place but have not found any that are conclusive but that's not the point of it. A couple of issues is the Mississippi runs north to south Sidon runs south to north. The Mississippi is far too vast to have had a battle next to and forge through on foot even after throwing the bodies of the dead into it. Something the church works very hard to do is when looking at what others have said on quoting Joseph is finding at least 3 other witnesses who can verify not relying one one source. Some things to remember. One of my biggest issues with the heartland theory is the sea east and sea west is by zerahemla. There is no sea east or west in the heartland model
The river Sidon is the Nile in Africa. The Book of Mormon takes place in Africa. When Lehi went "3 days" from the Red Sea to the continually flowing river, he crossed the Isthmus of Suez and entered Africa. The journey was from the Red Sea to the Nile. (Confirmed by Carsten Niebuhr in 1762). Once on the Nile, the Tree of Life Vision commanded he follow the Nile up to The Garden of Eden at the "head" of the river. Genesis 2:13 says this is in Ethiopia. Jews have been migrating to Ethiopia since King Solomon. It was not a new concept. Jeremiah 44 says Egypt will become a "Desolation". This is why Helaman 3:6 refutes the concept of Desolation because the migration in that chapter is from Ethiopia back to Egypt. The "treeless" land to the North where they build with "cement", 'ship" timber and used to be called "desolation" is clearly Egypt. The destruction of the Nephites happened in Egypt, that's why the angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the same river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision. (1 Nephi 12:16). Again, this is the Nile in Egypt. In Alma we read about a "3 day journey" to the North. Then we read about Zeezrom from Ammonihah, a place called Midoni and a place called the "Land of Ishmael". These are ALL clearly Biblical locations that are back in the Middle East. The 3 day journey in Alma is a return to the Middle East. Read Deutoronomy 2:20. Zeezrom from Ammonihah is a Zamzummim from Ammon. Midoni is the Biblical Midian (it's spelled the Biblical way "Midian" one time). The Land of Ishmael is clearly Northern Arabia. The Book of Ether is the Ethiopian Genesis. It describes how Ethiopians left the Garden of Eden, sailed down the Nile to Egypt. Then they sailed the open ocean to Israel. They brought the "milk and honey" from the garden to Israel (The Biblical Land of Milk and Honey).
Ryan, this was the most comprehensive proof on the existence of the Nephites I have ever seen. May I use some of these images in my presentations? Thank you for a most enjoyable hour!
This is amazing and very helpful. Towards the end, when you read 'that they might have a space to flee' I immediately thought about the many many native tribes in Canada, to this day. One of the 3 main tribes is called the Metis, who are a mixture of indigenous North American peope or better known to them as 'First Nations' and European disscent... Hmmm
I lived in Manitoba and Saskatchewan for 2 years. It did seem like a very possible scenario considering that's literally what happened later on with the European conquest. Many many people tribes were pushed to the north.
@@Peedarb Right? I will assuredly be doing more digging on these theories. I am reading my dad's old books and one is called "HE WALKED THE AMERICAS" (1963, L.Taylor Hansen) and it goes into great discussion of all the native tribes of America's (north and south) that have a story of Jesus, a prophet who appeared and taught them and told them to call him whatever they chose. It's fascinating stuff.
Ryan, very interesting and compelling. I've been a strong believer that the Book of Mormon took place in North America since my mission about 15 years ago. Thanks for your research and time you put into this presentation. Another thing to consider is that if you take the 1823 version of Webster's dictionary the word "neck" aligns to your hypothesis. It says.... "A long narrow tract of land projecting from the main body, or a narrow tract connecting two larger tracts; as the neck of land between Boston and Roxbury.". Too often today we ascribe words or phrases to our time and our way of understanding. Considering that the Book of Mormon was translated in the early 1800's it makes sense to me it would have been written in the words of that day and time. Thus, another reason interpretation can be lost in translation, especially from Hebrew to English. The reason we read king James version as members of this church is because it's translated the most accurate. Not exact.... This is not a defining point to hinge my testimony on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, just another little gem to strengthen it. Thanks again...
There are several problems with this analysis for me. The distances described in the BofM are very small. It took only a few days for a large group of people with children and livestock under both Alma's and Limhi's direction to return from the land of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla. Also, it only took Alma 1-3 days to travel between cities on his missionary journey. The distances described in this map that ties to the Hopewell civilization are hundreds of miles apart. It is believable that the Nephites and Lamanites would have migrated to those distances from the Great Lakes, but not the other way around. I was reading recently in an older BofM where the heading said the River Sidon ran north. While the BofM doesn't say that Sidon runs north, it says that the headwaters of Sidon were in the south, and since water runs down hill it isn't much of a stretch to say that the River Sidon runs north. It also says that those going south from Zarahemla to the land of Nephi went "up." Also, near the end of the BofM it says the Nephites went into the land northward which was "a land of many lakes and rivers." Also, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were taken into a room in the hill Cumorah where there were many (16 as I recall) wagon loads of plates. We know that Mormon moved those plates for safe keeping during a fierce war. It's doubtful that that he could have done that from Mesoamerica (5000 miles) or even Nauvoo (1300 miles). For me what works best is that all three groups, the Jaredites, the Mulekites, and the Nephites entered N. America through the St Lawrence River to Lake Ontario, which was as far as they could go in a boat because of Niagara Falls. I would suggest that the Jaredites landed somewhere around Toronto, Ontario, and settled in what is now Ontario, Canada. The Mulikites landed near the mouth of the Niagara River and built Zarahemla on the west bank of the river. The Nephites landed about 60-80 miles east of the Niagara River on the south shore of Lake Ontario and went south 50-80 miles to the Land of Nephi. The Niagara River is the only river large enough to throw thousands of bodies into and flows north. The sea east is Lake Ontario, and the Sea west is Lake Erie not that they are on the east and the west, but that from Zarahemla they "run" east and west. JS Smith said that Lake Ontario was the sea east. Also, if one is about where Toronto is, one would be surrounded by water with L. Ontario on the east, Lake Erie on the south, Lake Huron on the west and north. Also, the headwaters of Sidon would be Lake Erie. Also, the Niagara River is 35 miles long and straddles the "narrow neck of land." Covering 35 miles in a day and a half is very doable for a Nephite. The reference to the land northward being "a land of many lakes and rivers" is more abundantly described by the province of Ontario, Canada than any other place in north or south America where all the other geography also works. I would also propose that Hagoth put in his ships on the east coast of Lake Huron and traveled north, perhaps as far as Lake Superior, the region where mideast DNA is most plentiful. Also, it is about 90 miles from the Niagara River to the hill Cumorah where the plates were found--a much more doable distance for Mormon to take 16 wagon loads of plates for safe keeping.
Amazing!!!! I didn't need this information for my testimony but WOW, what amazing facts which proves the Book of Mormon to be true. One could always choose to doubt but when the spirit has born witness then we cannot deny the proof.
BOOK OF MORMON historical errors In looking at the Book of Mormon we need to compare the people’s living conditions & environment with those of the native Indians. For example, what type of plants does the book mention? Were these plants in America at that time? What animals were said to be in the area? Did the Indians have knowledge of metal working as stated in the Book of Mormon? What was the Indians' written language? How did they travel? How do the claims in the Book of Mormon compare with archaeology? What evidence has been discovered? The Book of Mormon talks about: • wheat (Mosiah 9:9) • horses (1 Nephi 18:25) • chariots (Alma 18:9-11; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22) • cows (Enos 21) • elephants (Ether 9:19) • silk (Alma 1:29; 4:6; Ether 9:17) • linen (Mosiah 10:5; Helaman 6:13; Ether 10:24) • money-pieces of gold and silver (Alma 11:3-20) • steel (2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9) NOT ONE of these items was in America before the Spanish arrived ! NONE. This is a shining example of the nature of Mormon fraud, sadly. #
Janet McKinney So true! Unbelievers want and mostly will not believe but there will be some who will make the effort to study both by faith and real intent research, finding answers where there doubts are! If they don’t make the effort, they won’t find out!
Ryan Ingram. This is a great video. I am a convert and this issue was one I studied closely as I took in the whole "Mormon" package into consideration. Actually, one of the reasons I investigated this church was after studying Near Death Experiences for 10 years. Here is my testimony: m.ua-cam.com/video/F-SSgsmRG8gI/v-deo.html bring this up because I remember a testimony of a lady that died named Elaine Durham in her book I Stand All Amazed. She didn't know anything about this religion, but she was told in her afterlife experience that the 'Perfect' church was on the earth again today. She said among a ton of other keys to finding the church that there was a connection of the American Indians and their history to this perfected church. I never forgot that statement and now 2 years later I finally figured out that this heartland model is right on track. I think they are going to excavate that temple site across from Navoo soon so that is very exciting! I look forward to your future work! Matt
You've done well. Let me help a little. The where was about 40 feet deeper back then so the Mississippi (Sidon) was as wide as the whole Mississippi River Valley. In other words it was more like an inland sea than you realize.
Hopewell ruins are everywhere literally they estimate over 2 million individual structures. Houses made of wood would obviously not still exist but the post molds verify they were there
Ever heard of the chemical change from firepits? Firepits are locating sites 6 ft down, and identifying population sizes. ExRay technology of the last 5 years? guess what it shows?? Guess what it dates?? Guess where it identifies? Are you aware of any of it? will you hide your head in the sand when the results come forth? Doubting Thomases until smacked in the head and still wont believe it
Not a Mormon nor a believer in the BoM's historicity, but I have lots of background in history and this is much more plausible than the central American scenario which strikes me as pretty forced and based on 19th century ideas of similarity between Egypt and central America backed by later scholarly attempts to prove them. Your scenario at least starts with a known location and doesn't wander too far afield.
@10 Foot Man I find it fascinating that anti-Mormons think anyone who appreciates or defends the LDS must be Mormon even when they tell you they're not. I am not only not a Mormon, I'm a Protestant pastor and have been for over 30 years. I think ecumenical and interfaith activity is important. I once taught a World Religion course at a branch campus of Ohio State University and have participated in activities with Catholics, Mormons, Pentecostals, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Humanists, and even Wiccans. I have never seen the need to disparage other religions, ignore their flaws, or accept their beliefs. I have, however, found it necessary to seek understanding and avoid stereotypes. This approach allows me to work with and have constructive conversations with many people, something my faith in Jesus calls me to do. Since we're asking questions, why do feel it necessary to attack the LDS or insult people who have never hurt you? Why not just ignore the LDS and find a Faith that you do like? If you disagree with someone, why not just state your case and leave it at that?
@10 Foot Man So sorry for you. You are a mobber and not a Christian, you are a brother of Barabas. A son of Satan and crucifier of Jesus Christ. You speak evil of His Prophet and people and His church.
This makes much more sense than looking at south and central America. I also look at Doctrine and Covenants Section 32. Revelation given to Joseph Smith to send Parley P. Pratt and Ziba Peterson to accompany Oliver Cowdery to preach to the Lamanites to the west.
Robert Day This is all made up by a false “prophet”. Please step outside of your indoctrination to learn the real truth. I know it’s hard, but your church’s own history condemns it as false. That is the reason so many previously LDS zealots have left. You don’t have to be in bondage to an organization. Jesus says “My yoke is easy. My burden is light.” Worship the Creator, not the created. ( btw Jesus was not created).
Ryan, I too like the Heartland approach. Your video is a good start. Maybe you or someone else can help me. According to John Lund the Nephites kept time based on the Law of Moses and that the "First Month" would be March 21 to April 19. If that were true, would it be warm enough to fight. Where were the Hopewell located during these time periods?: • Alma 16:1 (81-77 BC) April 20 to May 18 • Alma 49:1 (72 BC) Jan 14 to Feb 15 • Alma 52:1 (66-64 BC) March 21 to April 19 • Alma 56:1 (62 BC) March 21 to April 19 • Alma 56:27 (65-64 BC) April 20 to May 18 • Alma 56:42 (65-64 BC) Sept 15 to Oct 13 • 3 Nephi 4:7 (19-22 AD) August 16 to Sept 14 • 3 Nephi 4:11 (19-20 AD) August 16 to Sept 14 I notice that there does seem to be a pattern where they are fighting later in the year. Is that because it is a colder area as they were pushed north? If we can show that the Hopewell were in a warm enough location during the early months then we might have some more evidence. Matt
+Matt Johnson I didn't mean to sound short, i will do some more geography videos from the Book Of Mormon text and specific events, Subscribe to stay updated
i lived in Ogden Utah growing up. The church I went to was on a mound, Mound fort 9th and child's I have always though this was a mound from the Book of Mormon times. I was present when a pioneer maker was installed 1970's. The man was talking about a chief that was buired and dug up as the road was cut comming up 9th st
Skip Peterson You wouldn't be talking about Chief Joseph now would you be!?!.. Chief Joseph who was captured in 1880 in Montana an place on a reservation in Wyoming . An found around His own neck was a medicne pouch. By the US Calvalry, an in the poch was found the Cuneiform tablet.
Helaman 3 says "Desolation" is "treeless", they build with "cement" and they "ship" timber. Jeremiah 44 says "Desolation" is Israel and soon to be Egypt. It sure makes a lot more sense that the Nephites were speaking about the Biblical Land of Desolation, not Canada. Egypt is "treeless" (Sahara desert). They build with "cement" (stone temples). and they "ship" timber (Lebanon Cedar). None of this even remotely describes Canada. The "people of Ammon" (Helaman 3:12) are clearly coming from the Biblical Ammon in modern day Jordan. The BOM takes place in Africa. The "Land South" is Africa. The "Narrow Neck" is the Isthmus of Suez. Lehi was commanded to follow the Nile to Ethiopia. That's where the Bible says the Garden of Eden was. (Genesis 2:13). Lehi knew this. The Nephites were destroyed in Egypt after they migrated back North to Egypt in Helaman 3. This is why the angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the same river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision. (1 Nephi 12:16). That river is the Nile. The BOM has nothing to do with America. It was written by Ethiopian Jews.
Great time to be alive .information age is amazing .how boring folks in past had nothing but replayed stories with no authentication .GOD is revealeing artifacts and manuscripts .that take away any dought .we are reaching that point where man must decide .
+Ryan Ingram Yes I think he needs to too! In my profession I am not able to get to church often. Went yesterday. That feeling is unmistakable. You know you're in the right place!
the scriptures state that it runs "from the east sea to the west." I would like to point out that there is no sea behind the word west, and though basic grammar in today's society would make it seem like that means it's talking about the same noun, back in ancient times it is doubtful that this was the case, and after an analysis of the writing style of that particular section of the book, it's likely that it simply means running from the east sea into the western direction.
in Alma 22:27. and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west. The earlier reference to seas does only mention the sea east . but later in the same verse it makes it explicit that the narrow strip ran from sea to sea.
+Dave Gray, Just noting, the word "sea" is also used in one same chapter (in the Book of Mormon during a battle) as the word "river (Sidon)", inferring the same body of water. A large body of water whether a smaller ocean, a lake or a river can all be called by the ancients, a "sea".
We tend to think that Mormon had aerial maps to help him describe the land in his day. If I were him, I would also think the Nephites were "surrounded by water" as the large rivers in the mid-west region were very difficult to traverse - especially for an invading army. Just think about the number of boats it would take to move 50,000 men and their supplies across the Mississippi. I am sure the Nephites felt more protected with these water barriers, but it proved to be not enough to keep them safe....
One other consideration is if Mormon was describing it from his own time, or the descriptions from maps and the book of the kings from Alma's time. If from Mormon's time, then yeah, the descriptions could fit. However, the whole face of the land was changed in 33 AD such that the maps that Alma used would have been less effective for Mormon and for us. These changes means that what was a narrow neck of the land for Alma could have been a sea or a wilderness for Mormon and for us. This also doesn't consider the other changes to the land that may have occurred from the time Mormon was writing till Europeans ventured in to that region some 1100-1200 years later that we have no writings of and were covered over from natural erosion.
Keep in mind water levels were higher then...the Mississippi river was much higher and the gulf of Mexico extended further up the Mississippi River and the great lakes were closer to being one body of water almost extending down to the upward reach of the gulf of Mexico at least in relative terms... geographic evidence shows the southward reach of the lakes and the northward reach of the gulf of Mexico up the Mississippi
Note that the river Sidon and great lakes were larger back then making it even more fitting to being surrounded and the narrow strip of land even more narrow.
Hi Ryan, great job. Have you looked at the Grand Kankakee Marsh (Lake Michigan) and the Great Black Swamp (Lake Erie)? They make the narrow neck smaller for the Line Bountiful to the land northward (Michigan).
from the east sea to the west sea was a day and a half journey for a Nephite .....how to do that in mexico? or the usa? the land south encompassed all the laminates ... Florida produced the endless waves of Lamenites ... think that was from Brazil ...
Haters really come alive for this topic. I’m not sure if your thesis is 100% correct but Nephite lands are definitely North America, our apostles have said as much many times over the years. Enjoyable production.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. No mention of the jaradites and who preceded the Hopewell. Alma 3:3 does not work with the Mississippi being the river Sidon. Just my thoughts
Scott Palmer The Jaredites were called Adena, predecessors to the Hopewell, Wayne May has covered this topic very well, i suggest you have a look, their timelines also match perfectly.
@@Peedarb No they are not. The Adena, like the Illinois tribes of Cahokia, Kaskaskia, Michigamea, Peoria, and Tamaroa do not have Hebrew DNA, cultural artifacts or language that resemble the Jaredite, Lamanite or Nephites. Hi jack someone else's culture - frauds!
@@watcherpalmerlds Good points. Thanks for trying to talk sense into these heartland dreamers. Alma Chapter 2 also makes it clear that the Mississippi River could not be the river Sidon. In verse 24, we see the Amlicites headed in the general direction of the land of Nephi -- which was south of the land of Zarahemla -- on their way to Minon. Minon was at a higher elevation than Zarahemla. So they were traveling south and higher which can only mean that the river Sidon is flowing northward towards Zarahemla and then on to the sea. Which means the heartlanders' claim of the ancient city of Zarahemla being next to the Mississippi is bogus.
1. Nice presentation from what was known from 8 years ago. Cumorah was the place where Joseph got the plates AND the location of the final Jaredite and Nephite battles. 2. Your map location for the Wilderness of Hermounts is several hundred miles too far west (see Alma 2) and the land of Zarahemla is way too big per Mosiah 1:9-10, 18 and Alma 2:36. All the people of Zarahemla and Mosiah were invited via proclamation to gather at the Zarahemla Temple the next day to hear King Benjamin speak. They brought animals for sacrifice. I'm guessing the land of Zarahemla was about 20 miles long and 10 miles wide. Those are the max distances for these people to hear/see the proclamation and travel to the Zarahemla temple late on the first day or early the 2nd day.
Remember that the Book of Mormon has about four or five references to "seasonal" weather or seasons. This would mean that it must be in North America as there is no seasonal weather in Central America. They're also needs to be migrating beasts which is an obvious reference to the buffalo. So they absolutely were familiar with snow, Alma 46:40 ....And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land Most 18:4 being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.
@@Peedarb Not to be contentious; just sharing some additional information that should not be discounted, ignored, or overlooked. Please know, there are rainy seasons in Central America, and after raining season comes mesquite and insect season, which you surely must know, spreads sickness, typically accompanied by fever. Ever heard of Malaria (or any number of tropical diseases?) You don't need cold winters to have fevers, in fact, most fevers experienced around the world happen in climates where there are no cold temperatures. Fevers are the by-product of the human body fighting off foreign pathogens or infections, which come in a multitude of ways. It's extremely naive and ignorant to think fevers are only reserved for or associated with cold temperatures. Don't make the mistake of believing fevers only come from wintertime sicknesses! The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message, are descriptions of where and when it took place. Mormon, Moroni, and Joseph provide all the details necessary. According to the BOM, a New Jerusalem will be built upon this Continent, in a land north of Zarahemla; we know by revelation, as it being more specifically within the current borders of the United States of America, in the current borders of the State of Missouri, at a location currently known as Independence. We also know from the BOM narrative that the Hill called Cumorah by Mormon was north (not east) of the narrow neck of land and in the land of Zarahemla. It's important to remember this when placing Cumorah. Also remember, the New Jerusalem is north of Zarahelma (not west or southwest of Zarahemla). Joseph, knows more about the BOM than any scholar or researcher, Joseph would be the expert on the topic. So did Joseph by chance way in on the regional location of Zarahemla before he died?? Why yes, yes he did. No scholars or researchers needed for this one, Joseph spelled it out as an "important fact" and put it in writing. Proceed with humility. Because the Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; the BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware, Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested to know this, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church themselves), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. That's what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it, there's no hearsay about it, he printed it. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't necessarily declaring a specific city, that was previously named and mentioned in a previous edition of the T&S was the city of Zarahemla. But that they are, however, of the opinion that the previously named city was a city mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The name of the city comes from a book of an explorer of Central America. Read the T&S article for the full details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named, does not refute the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. Nor does Zarahemla being in Central America diminish Nephites being in the heartland of the north country. In fact, it actually collaborates with the BOM narrative perfectly. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Because, also know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims of other publications in the region, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks, to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this, so long ago, and clearing it up for future generations. Joseph knew dissenters would arise! Still having heartburn? Well, six weeks after the declaration, Joseph, calls John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season on November 15, 1842. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it, would Joseph have promoted John to Editor? Further, if Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, Joseph did not have it retracted; Joseph is the one who published it. Truth is, Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't. What, still more heartburn? Okay, next, go to the Church's website and search - Book of Mormon Geography. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka today, as Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda ruins speculation. Don't let anyone trick you into thinking Joseph wasn't Editor and in charge of the T&S in Oct of 1842. Also know, Joseph, never provided the exact location of Zarahemla, only the general area of it being in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day, via widely available published maps. Now this is fun; for additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the lands of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. If Zarahemla is in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate the BOM narrative masterfully. In Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 it states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, since before Christ even. It's all accounted for in the BOM. There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required to see that it all fits the book's narrative. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the main storyline Book of Mormon Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America, no surprise there, however, the northern Nephite evidence we find, is not evidence of the main BOM Nephite lands of Zarahemla or Bountiful, where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt. Now you know; if you choose to discount or ignore it, that's on you, but, now you know. You can trust Joseph or you can trust Wayne. The feeling of my heart tells me to go with the Lord's prophet on this one.
Anyone know where I can get this map with lands, cities and current state/city over-lays? It's very helpful as I read TBoM. Man, I remember when I was a kid looking at that big, silly blob-map that looked to resemble Central America ... I found it very confusing and frustrating. THIS map, however, really brings it together. I have a couple of points of contention, sure... but who knows how the land and rivers and lakes and ocean shores were changed at 33 AD. I'd really like to get this on a map to hang on the wall so I can follow along as I read. Anyone?
@@Peedarb Yeah, cool link... but I was hoping for a printable map that showed the cities. I see how the archaeological stuff can be de-selected and the story stuff can be selected and love how the lands are shown and superimposed but the cities just come up as a dot that are not labeled and their are areas that are not clear ... like wildernesses and separations. Great job on the map! I love it! But, it would be nice to get something more detailed I can point to quickly so my kids (and myself) can just look at it like a modern day map. Something nice that can be put on the wall and maybe framed would be cool
David. Get The National Geographic road map of Mexico at a bookstore. Use the half the includes Guatemala. Here are some landmarks that actually match Alma 22, Alma 63, Alma 2 and other Actual sites: the area north and east of Guatemala city is land of Nephi. City of Salama is likely Nephi. Narrow strip of wilderness is the Cuchumatana mountains along the rift valley running coast to coast. Sidon is the Grihalva river that starts in the Narrow Strip. Zarahemla is now under Lake Angostura. Wilderness of Hermount is Region de Los Chimalapas. Narrow neck and pass are Minatitlan south across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Hagoth launched from the natural harbor on the Southwest side of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. The Mulekites landed probably in the area of the Olmec ruins of LaVenta then moved up to Zarahemla. The Nephites probably landed on the coast west of Guatemala City. Cumorah is around the Olmec ruins of Tres Zepotes in Vera Cruz, the land northward. Mormon left most of the plates there and Moroni had 36 year to get his small collection to "a large hill" in New York. This geography works. What about the Hopewell? Helaman 3.
Additionally, his Hopewell dates (Wayne May's) are way off by about 450 years. Hopewell is a name given to various people in the range of about 200 BC to about 500 AD. May fudges the numbers to get it closer to 588 BCish. His map, to quote him "is a bit of a stretch" to say the least. Read Alma 22 and Helaman 3 carefully. I can see people coming up with various geographies. But when they make it an article of faith like May and Meldrum, I think Jacob would call that "looking beyond the mark. "
@@UtahKent Can also refer to 3 Nephi chapters 3 & 4 for clarification. Those chapters show that when the Nephites gathered in one under the direction of Lachoneus, they had to be in an area small enough so that it could be defended and besieged. No way that action could have taken place on the map this video shows -- way too much territory.
There's a great book by an LDS author that shows that there's perfect harmony between the prophetic statements concerning the garden of Eden being in Missouri and the Old Testament account concerning the garden of Eden. It's called Canaan, Babylon, and Egypt A Comparative Theological Analysis on Creation sold by Eborn Books.
Why would they describe the great lakes as a sea other than its size...it is not salty? They crossed the sea and would understand the difference between lakes and the sea right?
In the ancient Levant, all bodies of water were called "seas", the Sea of Galilee, the red Sea, etc. There are even texts that refer to the Nile River as a Sea.
@@brianmurphy7639 Not all seas are salty. See dictionary definition 1d: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sea . In addition to the sea of Galilee, there's the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Sea of Azov.
Just wondering Ryan if you have heard of the Great Black swamp that was anciently located upper Ohio. Look it up because it is a probable place for the narrow neck. It was drained for development. I live in ohio and never knew about this until about a year ago. It makes so much sense.
@@darleneniehaus9111 Ask yourself some other questions first. When was the flood? When was Pangea? What were the land situations back then? What were the water situations back then? Lots of situations to solve. The BofM says little saucers shaped boats. tied together,, Book of Ether
I am also always amazed at HOW the universities and archaeologist keep saying ...unknown.. reason of extinction? We may guess as to why,it might upset their own history of colonization and history per se?
James Garland The archaeological record that we have today,is in complete. What people have given names to, of today, does not reflect or recognize their true names back then. Smithsonian has artifacts dating back 2,000 or so, yet some of it is NOT recognized by them for those periods....BAT Creek tablet as an example, they [professors] cannot agree whether it is jewish or not even though the inscription is?
Interesting scenario. Actually did anyone notice the origin of the word Cree? Wikipedia says: "The name "Cree" is derived from the Algonkian-language exonym Kirištino˙, which the Ojibwa used for tribes around Hudson Bay. The French colonists and explorers, who spelled the term Kilistinon, Kiristinon, Knisteneaux, Cristenaux, and Cristinaux, used the term for numerous tribes which they encountered north of Lake Superior, in Manitoba, and west of there". So that means some folks around the Great Lakes (Northern Wilderness) were called "Christians" before European contact. Might be that a small group of believers survived, which Moroni was not aware of?
This ruction about the book of Mormon is an unfortunate distraction. The most important part of the Mormon faith is we need to make sure that we are faithful to the will of Heavenly Father, and practice the things that please him. That is all that matters.
true, but it IS fun to speculate. I'm pretty sure Heavenly Father doesn't care either way as long as it doesn't harm our faith if proven false. also, it slightly strengthens faith, so it might be a good thing
Space on the plates was so precious that the authors and Mormon were extremely careful about the information they provided therein. If research into the "where" is so unimportant, why did they include so many directions, times & distances? My feeling is that although it clearly takes a far back seat to the "why" (the doctrine), that the authors wanted us to know where things took place so we could learn from the societies they were writing about. There are other reasons as well. All knowledge is good knowledge. As is, this is still speculative, but very interesting. Take care friend.
It doesn't hurt Mormons "more" to point to other options. Joseph Smith pointed out locations, and for good reason. It has not helped to point to Central America, and Joseph Smith knew that as well. It will never hurt to point to areas Joseph already pointed to, because if you have a testimony of his being the prophet, he spoke the Truth. He never once pointed to Central America that way. He would not have allowed the brethren to do so either, but they must have gone over his head (while he was in jail unable to stop it), because he had said "no" to any attention to Central America. There is no doubt a solid reason for that. I think this is more than just a "model of guesses" & I'll tell you why--"this land" being a free one with a Constitution that protects it shows far more than "guesses". The restoration era fits the free, Constitutional US, purely because of freedom itself, & additionally because Isaiah and Nephi both said it'd be esteemed as the greatest nation of ALL, worldwide.
Marianne T Sites In retrospect, so much persecution of the Mormons was a direct violation of the Amendments of the Constitution. I'm convinced that Joseph Smith's eventual default of the Kirtland Bank was simply part of a nation wide economic depression, now called "The Panic of 1837" and not fraudulent on his part. Polygamy was the other sad issue, and was plainly forbidden in the Book of Jacob, Chapter 2. Joseph Smith was no more flawed than David in the Old Testament.
? Why leave Yemen, sail south around Africa, then north to the Gulf of Mexico and park on it's northern coast? The Mulekites going west and north and into the St. Lawrence Seaway is more plausible. Why is it that people of today think that people of former times couldn't travel long distances? Didn't use ships, had no knowledge of building or other technology? someday we will know for sure.
I think he reason it seems to skip from New York (8) to Minnesota (9) (around the 30 minute mark) in the description is that 7 is a different "round about" from the "round about" on the southern side (the Applaichans). It seems to describe a northern "round about" which is the land between Detroit and Chicago (currently northern Michigan) that is on the borders of the seashore - west side of Lake Huron and east side of Lake Michigan. That would explain why the next location described is in Minnesota.
There is actually one of the oldest hopewell sites in Iowa also at more then 500bc. I just screenshot a map the other day on the Hopewell and adena timeline and sites
Good job! I loved it, even when with your plausible arguments have destroyed my feelings about a Mesoamerican lands of Book of Mormon :) Sincerely, I feel more comfortable with your conclusions. Just need to justify another geographic references like volcanoes, etc. Greetings from sunny Costa Rica.
I like your model, but I have a few questions: I'm no expert, but the BoM seems clear that the river Sidon flows from south to north. How could that be the Mississippi? Also, the BoM never mentions anything about cold, but mentions heat quite frequently. If the Nephites were so far north, don't you find that a little troubling?
yer rite..u aint no xpert otherwise cite the scripture that clearly states the sidon flows north while yer at it, name a gr8 river that flows north in mesoamerica since thats yer criteria --- hav u evva been 2 the heartland in the summer? cuz it gets wicked hot w humidity the BofM does mention hail n whirlwinds, which hav nevva happend in the proposed mesoamerica setting yet u dont find that troubling?
The BoM itself does not say whether Sidon flows north or south. The Wikipedia article "River Sidon" says that at one time an index to the BoM made the distinction that the river flowed north. You'll find that most (if not all) the major rivers in the new world flow in all general directions except North. The Mississippi generally flows south, the Ohio flows west, the Missouri flows east, the Amazon also flows east along with the Orinoco, Rio Grand flows South then southeast, the Colorado flows west and south.....
The B of M says the headwaters were south and "up." If water runs downhill then it runs north, just like the Niagara River which is also large enough to carry thousands of bodies tossed into it.
Remember also that there has possibly been significant change in water levels in North America throughout the past 2000 years due to massive earthquakes. The Mississippi river and the great lakes may have been much larger or differently shaped bodies of water, whether very significant or not, I think this adds reasonable room for error. The heartland model is the only probable model for the Book of Mormon geography. I’ve been to the Yucatan peninsula and visited the ruins and geography. There is nothing there that suggests that land is choice above other lands or that the people who lived there were people who believed in our God. For some reason a lot of people’s “testimonies” seem to be contingent on the idea that the Book of Mormon happened in central America…
They have also proven those sites in central and south America were built by a pagan society, complete with human sacrifice, strictly forbidden to an Israelite-based society (God).
Ryan, Alma 50 states that the Land of Nephi extended from the Sea East to the West which I interpret as being roughly the entire Appalachian mountains. Having the Land of Nephi only in your southern blue section works until you are halfway through the Book of Alma, then the descriptions of movements to the Land of Nephi must be further to the north to work out. Then I saw Alma 50 about the Land of Nephi extending from Sea East, and that clinched it for me. The entire Land of Nephi encompasses the southern blue and the Southern / Eastern States grey area. Thanks for your work.
That's a great scripture, prove to me that there is no Sea on the west of the land Nephi only on the East and that the land Nephi Extends indefinitely to the West.
+Brian Nettles well what I mean is there's no Sea on the west of Nephi, it just runs in a straight course indefinitely to the West. I do believe Lake Michigan is probably Sea West
Ryan, once again, I think you have done a great job with this video. Here are some of the things which come to my mind as I read in Mosiah and Alma. In the Book of Mosiah, I agree mostly with you and Rod Meldrum. However, I differ in one area. I seem to think that the Waters of Mormon are not where Rod says it is; instead, I think where he places the Waters of Mormon better describe the Land of Helam where Alma and his followers fled to and dwelt for about 20 years. In the book of Mosiah, when the Land of Nephi is talked about, the area in Eastern Tennessee seems a very good candidate. When you move over into the Book of Alma, we know where the land of Zarahemla is just as you have described. The Land of Antionum is east of Zerahemla at the southern sea shore which puts it near Chicago. The Land of Jershon was north of this location - likely in Minnesota. After Antionum became a Lamanite land, the AntiNephiLehis crossed the Mississippi and went south to Manti. It becomes difficult to recall all the details found in the later chapters of Alma, nevertheless, it appeared the there was much done to defend themselves from the Lamanites in the Lands Roundabout in modern day Virginia and Pennsylvania. What stood out to me was in Alma 50:8 where it says And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west. How I interpreted this was that the boundary line for the Land of Nephi was from Lake Ontario following westwardly (actually more of a southwest) direction following the Appalacian Mountains down into Tennessee. I could be wrong but this is how I interpreted it. With this description, the area of Niagra falls becomes a critical strategic path for the Lamanites to take into the lands of the Nephites when wanting battle. If the Lamanites went straight through Ohio, or West Virginia, they would be spotted and there could be no element of surprise in the battle of the less fortified inner cities of the Nephites. Through the Narrow Neck of Land of Niagra, this would give them a clear path to the land of Antionum and the Lamanites would still have the advantage of the element of surprise on cities away from the border lands. Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts. Best wishes.
I spent a bit of time putting Wayne Mays and his ridiculous presentation in a headlock. A lot of what I wrote there applies to the nonsense by Ryan in this video. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/zcii9P3Zd5w/v-deo.html Enjoy!
Well, I fully agree. Love Wayne May and Rod Meldrums work. There is no doubt the building construction and geography shows the North Americans as the land of the B of M. They didn’t build with stone, and Joseph Smith was quite clear that this is the place. There is 1 Hill Cumoura. Not 2. The evidence of Central American falls flat. But what’s truly important here is the truthfulness of the book, not its geography.
@@darrenasphalt9133 When the Church decided to comment on Book of Mormon geography, they didn't consult the Nehorites May or Meldrum. Your opinion of them is fine as long as you are adult enough to admit you're wrong.
Hey Doug, 😆 I’m sticking with Joseph Smith on this one. I respect the Central America theory. I really do. I have spent time down there and saw some compelling petroglyphs and architecture. Again, it boils down to this, the Book of Mormon is a warning for our day. We are in the very last seconds brother. I love your passion. I hope you have studied up on Ezras Eagle. Google and UA-cam. Research it and see what you think. Hope I shared something that will have some meaning. Take care and let’s meet up in the afterlife, if I’m wrong, I’ll give you a big hug and admit it!
Doug It’s not right of me to ask for you to look up Ezras Eagle (has nothing to do with B of M) and not look into your suggestions. I will. If we don’t look at every angle, we cannot have an accurate view on the subject. Ezras Eagle is end time prophecy I believe you’ll enjoy. You obviously love the gospel as I do. I will do what you asked. I’ll come back and let you know. Thanks for the info.
The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message, are descriptions of where and when it took place. Mormon, Moroni, and Joseph included all the details necessary. Moroni never referred to the hill, where he buried the plates, as Cumorah. He met with Joseph many, many times for years and never once referred to it as Cumorah. Joseph never mentions Moroni mentioning the name of the hill where he got the plates. In Joseph's history, he names off all the scriptures, places, events, and previous prophets, Moroni mentioned during his visits, surely Moroni knows the name of the hill he knew as Cumorah. Moroni names everything else; why would he not refer to this hill by name?? Because the hill where he buried the plates in, he didn't know by name; he was led to it by the spirit after having wandered for 30+ years, so the plates would be in a constitutionally free country and where Joseph's family would be. Remember, Mormon gave the plates to Moroni at Cumorah and instructed Moroni to am-scram to protect the plates. Moroni carried the plates away from Cumorah, he didn't bury them in Cumorah. Also, keep in mind, Joseph wasn't the one who started calling the hill, Cumorah; other saints did. Nowhere in the BOM or Joseph's histories (pick a version, it doesn't matter) does Joseph or Moroni, ever call the hill in NY, Cumorah. It was Oliver Cowdery and other saints, who first called the hill in NY Cumorah, not Joseph, nor Moroni. Realize, it's a common practice for people to name places after other places. Much like the Saints who settled Utah, naming the predominant mountain South of Utah Lake, Mt. Nebo; it doesn't mean it's the same Mt. Nebo Moses stood upon overlooking the promised land. Good grief. It's an honorary name and it became common vernacular by the Saints to reference the hill where Joseph dug up the plates as Cumorah; they had to call the hill something in conversation. In Joseph's history written in 1838, years after the saints had been calling the hill in NY, the Hill Cumorah, Joseph still doesn't refer to the hill as Cumorah in his history, he has it recorded as 'a hill of considerable size', even though by this time, it had become the nomenclature of the saints to refer to the hill, where he got the plates, as Cumorah. The name Cumorah is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as where Moroni received the plates from his father, if the hill in NY is the real BOM Cumorah, the one where Mormon buried all the records, why would Joseph go out of his way to not have the "actual" known name of the hill referenced in his history?? Because Joseph and Moroni, both knew it was not the hill Mormon was at; accuracy matters for the recorded history. Again, the NY hill was originally referred to as Cumorah, first, by other Ladder-day Saints, not Moroni, nor Joseph. Once, the saint had adopted calling the hill in NY, Cumorah, Joseph was fine with the endearing and honorary name, of calling the hill Cumorah in conversations himself, as that's what the saints were used to, as identifying the hill where he received the plates. Thus there is the original BOM Cumorah, which Mormon and Moroni knew, and also an honorary Hill Cumorah in NY, named by the saints. Don't let some theorist inject another narrative other than what is recorded in the official history. It's important to make the distinction. According to the BOM, a New Jerusalem will be built upon this Continent, in the land north of Zarahemla, we know by modern-day revelation, as being more specifically within the current borders of the United States of America, in the current borders of the state of Missouri, at a location currently known as Independence. We also know from the BOM narrative that the Hill called Cumorah by Mormon was north (not east) of the narrow neck of land and in the region of Zarahemla. It's important to remember this when placing Cumorah. Also remember, the New Jerusalem is north of Zarahelma (not west or southwest of Zarahemla) Because the Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; the BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware, Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested to know this, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both would become presidents of the Church themselves), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. That's what Joseph believed, and he printed it, there's no hearsay about it, he printed it. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't necessarily declaring a specific city, that was previously named and mentioned in a previous edition of the T&S was the city of Zarahemla. But that they are, however, of the opinion that the previously named city was a city mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The name of the city comes from a book by an explorer of Central America. Read the T&S article for the full details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named, does not refute the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. Nor does Zarahemla being in Central America diminish there being Nephites in the heartland of the north country. In fact, it actually collaborates the BOM narrative perfectly. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims of other publications in the region, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thank you, to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this, so long ago, and clearing it up for future generations. Joseph knew dissenters would arise! Six weeks later, Joseph, calls John Taylor to replace himself as the new Editor of the Times and Season on November 15, 1842. Logic and common sense dictate, if John Taylor published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's consent, and Joseph didn't agree with it, would Joseph have promoted John to Editor? Further, if Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and disagreed with the bold declaration, Joseph would have had it retracted. Joseph did not have it retracted, as he is the one who published it. Truth is, Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, that Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't. Next, go to the Church's website and search - Book of Mormon Geography. The church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement, they do acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further, confirm and substantiate Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America. Very interesting indeed. Don't let anyone try and trick you into thinking Joseph wasn't editor and in charge of the T&S in Oct of 1842. Joseph, never provided the exact location of Zarahemla, only the general area of it being in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala as he would have known it in his day, via widely available published maps. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835) open a properly labeled map, and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day, extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of BOM lands, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. Does the BOM accommodate Joseph's comment of "plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate the BOM narrative masterfully. In Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 it states many groups of Nephites left Zarahemla/Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how Zelph and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful, aka the main storyline of the Book of Mormon land. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla, and the New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, since before Christ. It's all accounted for in the BOM. There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required to see that it all fits the book's narrative. Joseph's plains of the Nephites comment, along with the Zelph story all collaborate with the BOM account. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the main storyline Book of Mormon land Nephites of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America, no surprise there, however, the northern Nephite evidence we find, is not evidence of the main BOM Nephite lands of Zarahemla.
Matthew 23 - 24 - 14 in the New Testament And this gospel of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all NATIONS and the end will come. ----------------------- And it is NOT the book of Mormon.
@@thomaspearson1919 It is the gospel of Christ that will be taught to all nations. And, as each book in the New Testament of the Bible testifies of Christ; so also does the Book of Mormon testify of Christ and His gospel, which will be taught to all nations, it's true. Best wishes!
The book of Mormon has more than 4,000 alterations and name changes, it was plagiarised from the Bible and other scriptures, Meaning the book of Mormon it is FAKE book since 1830 The most correct book ever written said Joseph Smith 1830 -1844. So why was the book of Mormon in 1981 changed to They shall be WHITE and delight some people, so they shall be PURE and delight some people. One out of 4,000 changes. And your founder of your church Joseph Smith said he was greater than Jesus Christ.. Quote I have more to boast of than ever any man had, I am the only man that has ever been to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. Neither Paul - John - Peter NOT even Jesus Christ did it.? Joseph Smith, history of the Mormon church Vol p 408 - 409. This is Smith in his own words in a book written by Smith himself. Joseph Smith claims he was greater than Jesus Christ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- have a nice day ===============
LOCATIONS NEAR JOSEPH SMITH 200 MILE RADIUS Who Plagiarised his own country America. Lehigh Valley Pa. Oneida. NY. Angolah. NY. Morgantown Pa. Jacobsburg. Pa. Alma Quebec. Shilohi OH. Kiskiminitas OH. river. Morin Quebec Sherbrooke Quebec. Tecumseh Quebec. Ripley ME.. =================================================== THE WORDS AND NAMES IN THE MORMON BOOK. Lehi. Onidah. Angola. Morianton. Jacobugath. Alama. Shilohi. Kishkumen. Moron. Shurr. Teacum. Riliancum Just match them together, and what do you see plagiarism ===================================================== When Joseph Smith [ Adult and c/o ] wrote the book of Mormon, he plagiarised from the King James version of the Bible, which can be readily seen by anyone willing to objectively compare the two book. The king James version of the Bible, was translated from early manuscripts of original languages of the Bible which were, Hebrew - Greek - And Aramaic. The book of Mormon is claimed to have been translated from reformed Egyptian which is a language with NO evidence that it ever existed. ========================================================= THE BIBLE JOHN 3 = 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So which Jesus Christ do you follow the Mormon Jesus, or the Biblical Jesus. ????? ========================================================
Those who hold to the heartlands model should watch John Lund's lecture at ua-cam.com/video/MRU6-vAQ4LA/v-deo.html. One wonders what sort of serpents in New York could cut of a large narrow neck of land in a blinding snow storm? One wonders where the concrete buildings are? There's very high quality concrete in Mesoamerica. And though Ryan says the Book of Mormon map has been deciphered, he fails to show us a map. Where's the narrow neck of land? And given that the real Hill Cumorah is _north_ of the narrow neck, the little drumlin cannot find a place that fits. After "New" Cumorah, Ryan uses highly debatable, cherry picked and ambiguous points to wend his way west. He locates Manti, then possibly Zarahemla, the waters of Mormon, all without regard to distances. He ignores the prophet's enthusiasm over Mesoamerica as though it didn't exist. And the only answer to the weather issue I've read so far is that the Nephites wrote heavy animal skins "to keep warm." (Actually, the Book of Mormon never says they did it to keep warm. I suspect they did it to protect themselves from enemy weapons, which is what most warriors did when they went to battle.) Not only is there concrete, we have striking similarities in culture, writing and history. They've even found a reference to a king by the name of Kish, who lived at the same time as the Book of Mormon Kish. No one says there were no Nephites or Lamanites in the North American plains. We know there were Nephite explorers who went north. We can say that there's a far greater probability that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, not in the North American heartlands.
of course, Joseph Smith was once handed a book about mesoamerica, and he told the person that it was the most correct book about those areas. if the book of Mormon took place in mesoamerica, wouldnt the book or Mormon be the most correct book of those areas? also, there's evidence that the "enthusiasm" you're referring to was an article stating that Lego landed in Peru was actually written by someone other than Joseph Smith, as all of Joseph's articles were signed by him, and this one was not
+Cameron Davis, I agree with you. If that was the Times and Seasons article, then Joseph Smith's being in jail at the time that others published it as though Joseph wrote it, was a sad occurrence indeed. It was manipulative. And it was needy, because while Joseph felt inspired location-wise, others in the church wanted to have big obvious evidence to show the world, partly in order to stop the mobbing and harassment. It has not helped to point to Central America and that location draws more harassment because of clear inconsistencies.
There is no place in MesoAmerica that fits the huge message of the Book of Mormon taking place in a promised land- as a nation. For all the supposed evidence, the prophecies and politics just don't square with me. North America on the other hand, fits exactly...including Nephis vision of North America, Columbus, Pilgrims, Revolutionary War, etc.
Nicely done, Ryan. As a long time researcher (40 years) into Book of Mormon geography, I find your conclusions not only plausible, but probable. I would be interested in seeing more detail as you further develop your thesis. Thanks.
Thanks Anthony, I've also enjoyed a lot of your research as well. Really getting into plasma cosmology etc. you're Joshua's long day videos were cool too. thanks for your interest I'll be doing some more videos pretty soon just been very busy.
Anthony Larson Absolutely no convincing. Poor Lamanites were freezing their rear. Going to war with only a cloth around their loins. So naive. Please don't try too hard.
Ah, but you are presuming that the climate then was exactly the same as today. Most likely not!
Susannah Oldfield Funny enough it would have been colder during the alleged timeline. Plus if you really want horses in the Book of Mormon it better take place at least 10000BC. It was really cold then!
Susannah Olfield makes a good point. The climate was not the same then. It was actually colder. North American glaciation much?
very good info. i think you did a very good job on this. I bet this took a lot of work to do. I really appreciate soending your time to make this video.
Awesome! Goes right along with The Mystic Symbol book about the mound builders who knew Jehovah and Hebrew.
yes thank you
I have been studying this out since the mid 90s as I found amazing places to see in the Mississippi river valley of Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Missouri. It started with my mission president from the Minneapolis Minnesota mission and traveling over the years through the heartland. As time has proceeded I have found amazing evidence that has come forth out of the ground as prophesied. Great presentation!
Awesome Ryan! Thank you for putting this together, it is very helpful.
Will pray the Lord to see if the Book of Mormon is actually true as suggested at the end of it....
Book of Mormon geography has proved perplexing when seen through our 21st century eyes. Yourmaps and analyses are helpful. Thank you for posting this, and for revealing research on the Hopewell people. Truly there is no substitute for good old fashioned research, especially when helping reveal scriptures and placing them into historical and archaeological context. Wherever these people were, we know they worshipped Jesus Christ then fell away, became full of pride and selfishness, and were overcome and destroyed. The spiritual message has greater meaning each day in an increasingly toxic American culture. We need above all to heed that message.
Good work! I love it! I'm a convert to the church and when I read the 'The Church History Fulness In Times' TWICE! And walked into an Institute Of Religion class with a map of the Book Of Mormon lands in Central America! I was like, 'Uhmmmmm something is wrong here!' It just didn't and never made sense no matter how members explained it to me! Now this. Makes sense!
Thanks, the Mesoamerican model always left me scratching my head too, so I had to find out the truth. stay posted, I'll be releasing some more Book of Mormon geography videos pretty soon. Everything I have found so far fits in this map.
What makes sense is, the "moundbuilders" of the Ohio region collaborate and are accounted for in the BOM. A study of Alma 63:4-9 and Helaman 3:3-9 coupled with Alma 22, establishes the bases for Nephites being in Ohio and all across the choice north country; according to these verses, many groups of very large numbers of Nephites and converted Lamanites, left Zarahemla & Bountiful to migrate to the choice land in the north country, as Mormon called it, where a New Jerusalem would one day be built. Also keep in mind, according to these verses, many of these groups built ships launching them in a sea, sailing north away from the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful. Realize, each additional group would need to travel further into the north country to inherit unsettled land; the last group Mormon tells us about in Helaman 3, even traveled an exceedingly great distance to inherit land and discovered large bodies of water (these are most likely the freshwater Great Lakes, not seas). So, in addition to a land route for migration, there is also a sea they could sail north away from Zarahemla & Bountiful; and no, it's not an extra large river, Mormon knows the difference between a river and a sea and he is consistent in his use of the terms, he never mixes them. Mormon only briefly mentions these people and tells us they also have many records, he doesn't share their stories with us, but lets us know there is a large record of their history; he briefly lets us know of their existence, that they left Zarahemla & Bountiful to go inherit land in the north country; Mormon also briefly mentions they had many of the same issues as the Nephites in Zarahemla & Bountiful. So yes there will be evidence of Nephites and Lamanites all across the north country as far north as at least the Great Lakes. And when Joseph says he walked the plains of the Nephites, he technically did; just not the plains of the Nephites in lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful. These verses, also set the stage, for a converted Lamanite warrior defending his people in the last struggles with the Lamanites, aka Zelph. So both of Joseph's claims collaborate the BOM narrative perfectly. It's all accounted for in the Book. According to the BOM, Nephites basically covered the entire North continent, even outside the main BOM lands of the storyline prophets of Zarahemla & Bountiful. If any proof of Nephites are discovered anywhere on the continent, guess what, the Book's narration accounts for it; it's all there, within the pages of the Book.
There are some absolute cornerstones that must fit without mental gymnastics or ignoring altogether, when placing the BOM lands where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, aka Bountiful & Zarahemla. Here's one example: By these verses (Alma 22, Alma 63, Helaman 3) we learn, there is a sea between Zarahemla and the land of New Jerusalem. We also learn from at least one of the groups, there is an exceedingly far away destination of very large bodies of water in the north country (which are not referred to as seas). Hmmm, which poses the question, if any of the narrow strips of land between any of the Great Lakes, as supposed by some, is the 'narrow neck of land', which is mentioned in the BOM near Zarahemla, where they left from, and if any one of the Great Lakes is the "sea" they sailed across to get to the north country, where would that place the New Jerusalem?? (Canada). The thought makes reason stare.
After studying the BOM and all other statements declared or published by Joseph; when it comes to the placing the location of Zarahemla and what makes sense; I believe what Joseph, John Taylor, & Wilford Woodruff (all three would be presidents of the Church; three high-powered witnesses) believed, and published as editors of the Times & Seasons Oct 1, 1842 titled Zarahemla. When they clearly and boldly declared the city Zarahemla was in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala (known to them on published maps available, in 1825 & 1835, note, the borders of Guatemala have shrunk since then).
In their published pronouncement, they quote Alma 22 in support of their claim. I'm pretty sure Joseph had tremendous insights and was the expert on the Book of Mormon. They do not correlate any find of ruins or currently named cities as the exact city of Zarahemla; only that Zarahemla is in the borders of Guatemala known to them at the time of publication. If that's the case, the narrative of the BOM fits perfectly; placing the future New Jerusalem, north of Zarahemla and in the "heartland" of the current United States of America. That makes perfect sense and fits the narrative perfectly. This 1842 editorial is simply wonderful, notice how they clarify the city Zarahemla as the one burnt at the time of the Lord's crucifixion; why would they need to specify the one burnt at the Savior's crucifixion; isn't there only one Zarahemla? Because, they knew there was a different, modern city, with the name of Zarahemla, developed by the Latter-day saint across the river from Nauvoo. Joseph, John, & Wilford wanted to clarify so no one was confused by the two different cities with the name of Zarahemla. Also, in the same edition of the T&S, the editors refute the claim of conspiring men that Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is no longer running things; the editors clearly inform the readers, that this is not the case, and that Joseph is still very much around and in control. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. No need for speculation, Joseph clears this conspiracy up in the same edition of the Zarahemla location declaration. I tend to believe Joseph's side of the story. I'm going with Joseph on this one. The BOM and Joseph collaborate perfectly. Makes sense!
Take care!
Wow,this is brilliant, a real testimony builder, and something I can get behind! Awesome job! Having a map like this makes reading the BOM a lot more understandable. Whenever I read it, I had no idea what to think of the lands described and couldn't really form a picture in my head. Tis helps a lot,thanks for all your hard work!
Something else you may not realize regarding the "almost surrounded by water" comment, is that the whole area of northwest Ohio and northeast Indiana, as well as part of southeast Michigan is an area known to to settlers as the Great Black Swamp. They couldn't even travel through there back in those days. They felled trees and made wooden roads before they drained the region and now use it for farmland. The water table is so high that houses in that area don't have to be checked for termites since they can't live underground in such damp conditions. My theory is that back in BOM times, Lake Erie was much higher and maybe this area wasn't a swamp at that time, but part of the lake or "sea". If that's true then it would really be interesting to see a computer generated map of the landscape with Lake Erie higher.
Very cool!
5 great lakes is good enough you need to read an old book of Mormon lakes between the seas
gr8 job..glad i ran across this vid
a few yrs ago i watchd as much stuff as i could by wayne may, rod meldrum n bruce porter cuz knew they were correct bout their heartland models
tho it seems wayne n rod differd on sum point, which escapes me now but im sure it was merely trivial
thanks for watching
This is fantastic thank you for putting all of this together in such a well presented manner
Loved the numerical identification during the reading, it made it so much easier to follow along and visualize, thank you for all the work you put into this!
Thank you for your help and time. How great it will be when the general
public will no longer be able to deny the truths that will stare them in the face.
Protestant Christian Here, no disrespect intended.
I find the BOM to be an interesting story. Love Mormons, nice people, met many. Its the LDS church and its prophets and doctrine which is far to wild, contradictary and unbiblical for me to ever believe.
Regardless of my own personal distrust and disagreement with the LDS Church (specifically its founder) I wish you all happy lives. Just hope we can all hug it out when christ returns :)
It’s not contradictory or unbiblical and we will hug it out just fine when the Savior comes. Looking forward to it.
The Mormon Jesus Christ.
A Created being the elder Brother of Lucifer..
One of many Gods..
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the father, and Mary.
Atonement happened in the garden of Gethsemane..
=================================================================
The Biblical Jesus Christ.
The uncreated God.
The one and only eternal son of God.
Conceived by the Holy spirit, who supernaturally overshadowed Mary.
Atonement was made on the Cross at Calvary..
=================================================================
Which one is true, And I am not a Mormon thank God.
===========================================
Not contradictory or unbiblical. The Bible is actually more unbiblical.
@@mikeboyd3225 LOL 😆
@@jordan-xe2yb you're indoctrinated into a counterfeit!
Thank you for this fascinating and insightful presentation! You made it so easy for me to follow along, highlighting the locations for us to see as you read Alma 22.
Thank you for this great lecture. Those of our faith who do not speak English are missing some important discoveries in recent years. South American Saints still believe Zarahemla is down here! I wish this would be translated into Portuguese. I'd be willing to help with that.
That is an interesting idea, thanks for watching.
Great job of linking map, markers and pictures of actual sites.
This video that someone has made is like something he’s done as a hobby. I don’t know why some people get so critical. I’m happy for him, he’s only keeping himself occupied.
The city layout at 17:31 is fascinating. I saw the lamp & Menorah right off the bat before it was identified as such. If that had been found in the Middle East, every scholar would know exactly what it represented. But because it was found in the Americas, they must assume that it means something else.
Yah, since the menorah is mentioned first in the Pentateuch which wasn't composed until after the supposed Lehi party left for the Americas, so they wouldn't have knowledge of it, and the first physical evidence for one is right about 2,000 years ago, there's no reason whatsoever to believe any pre-European conquest structure in the Western Hemisphere is of Jewish origin.
The Hopewell culture had all kinds of metal workings. There is native copper in the Great Lakes.
1.5k upvotes and 197 downvotes: with 197 people posting at least 10 negative comments each and the positive comments being basically non-existent ...
Perfect illustration of current Saints V Christians
Saints find LDS videos, quietly listen to video, upvote video, reads a swarm of negative comments and then flees: "Christians" seek out LDS videos, clearly don't even watch the video, downvote, then spam weak ad hominem baseless attacks without so much as a single citation...
"Arise again Zion!"
This is awesome, thank you!
During the 2020 Pandemic, I am studying the Book of Mormon daily and while using the Internet found so much additional information to enhance my testimony of this Book. I am using a Journaling copy to note thoughts of others, prophets, myself, and at the point in Alma decided I wanted to include a drawing (of my own) of the map of the Americas where this all took place. I found this site. This was much more than I imagined, but I am thrilled to think about the studies that have taken place over the years and conclusions that in ways to increase my testimony of The Book of Mormon . Thank you Ryan and all the other scholars and teachers!!
ua-cam.com/video/QL64fZKK6fg/v-deo.html
Very interesting. Thanks for this. I'll be reading this chapter with more excitement.
thank you for taking the time to watch it
My family from central Illinois found several arrow heads and an ax head from working farm land with my Uncle. It’s always been a treasure. We always went to the museum of natural history in Springfield, Illinois and learn about the plains Indians. I always thought they were Nephites.
Watch these and particularly pay attention to the tomb of Alexander in southern Illinois - and be prepared to be blown away: ua-cam.com/users/IllinoisCavesvideos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid
Last night (Feb. 4, 2023) I read Alma 22. I had a hard time comprehending where all the lands were that Mormon talked about. As I was saying my prayers, I asked the Lord to help me get a clearer understanding of where these lands were. Today, (Feb. 5, 2023) As I was on UA-cam, I noticed this video by you Ryan. I had previously watched part of it, but I never finished it. I watched it all over again and found the information that I was looking for. So, Ryan, I believe the Lord answered my prayer and led me to your video. Therefore I believe the information in you video is true.
Awesome man! I really do think it is correct. Looking to make some more videos to further prove it. I think most people just casually watch the video and casually read how much 22 are not going to care much about it. But if you really trying to read Alma 22 and try to make a map out of it it can really be a conundrum. But all this information came to me after a lot of thought and prayer as well. Of course I must credit Rod Meldrum and Wayne May for the inspiration as well.
Sorry, but this reading and interpretation of Alma 22 makes no sense. All of the verses need to be read together in context, then we can start putting each of the individual pieces together to get a better idea of the picture as a whole. I appreciate the attempt to put it on a map, but it doesn't match the descriptions at all as described in the text. I watched this other video that created an internal map based solely off of the descriptions found in the text, which I found very helpful and would recommend to anyone interested in Book of Mormon geography. But when we're trying to place Book of Mormon geography on a map, you need to create an internal map first that's based solely off of the descriptions found in the text, then you can start looking for potential locations that match those descriptions. ua-cam.com/video/TO03zqrJrrY/v-deo.htmlsi=ofu2QS7FSP-JCcET
If you understand that the lower Mississippi river probably filled much of the Mississippi Alluvial Valley at the time of the Nephites it's easy to see how it could have been considered a sea west for the Land of Nephi. Johnathan Neville covers this extensively in his book, "Moroni's America". His ideas on this subject can also be found at his website, www.moronisamerica.com/maps/ This link has maps that show the lower Mississippi as "to the sea west" in the land of Nephi and Lake Michigan as the West Sea for the Land Bountiful. I think if you identify the Lower Mississippi as the sea west in the Land of Nephi, or "West Sea, South" (Alma 53:8), the Alma 22 verses fit perfectly.
I am Familiar with the site, in fact i am sure that this video had much influence on his work. I do not believe that the Mississippi basin was flooded to form a "Sea West" . The sites along the river have been dated to Book of Mormon times including Poverty Point dating to about 1500 BC.
@@Peedarb Hey Ryan S.Dakota Nebraska Iowa and almost all of entire Midwest is flooded it's March of 2019 and looks like more to come.
This is the best explanation of Heartland geography that I've come across. No mention however of how Jaredites fit in to the geography.
check out Wayne Mays presentation, he mentions the Jaredites.
Wayne May has a very convincing explanation about the Jarodites. Its here on UA-cam.
Trying to keep it on point, thanks for watching
Jaredites correspond to the Adena culture and came down the St. Lawrence seaway and possessed the Land of Desolation (Great Lakes) Area.
Very interesting. I'm fascinated by the different theories of where the Book of Mormon took place but have not found any that are conclusive but that's not the point of it. A couple of issues is the Mississippi runs north to south Sidon runs south to north. The Mississippi is far too vast to have had a battle next to and forge through on foot even after throwing the bodies of the dead into it. Something the church works very hard to do is when looking at what others have said on quoting Joseph is finding at least 3 other witnesses who can verify not relying one one source. Some things to remember. One of my biggest issues with the heartland theory is the sea east and sea west is by zerahemla. There is no sea east or west in the heartland model
The river Sidon is the Nile in Africa. The Book of Mormon takes place in Africa.
When Lehi went "3 days" from the Red Sea to the continually flowing river, he crossed the Isthmus of Suez and entered Africa. The journey was from the Red Sea to the Nile. (Confirmed by Carsten Niebuhr in 1762).
Once on the Nile, the Tree of Life Vision commanded he follow the Nile up to The Garden of Eden at the "head" of the river.
Genesis 2:13 says this is in Ethiopia.
Jews have been migrating to Ethiopia since King Solomon. It was not a new concept.
Jeremiah 44 says Egypt will become a "Desolation".
This is why Helaman 3:6 refutes the concept of Desolation because the migration in that chapter is from Ethiopia back to Egypt.
The "treeless" land to the North where they build with "cement", 'ship" timber and used to be called "desolation" is clearly Egypt.
The destruction of the Nephites happened in Egypt, that's why the angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the same river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision. (1 Nephi 12:16). Again, this is the Nile in Egypt.
In Alma we read about a "3 day journey" to the North. Then we read about Zeezrom from Ammonihah, a place called Midoni and a place called the "Land of Ishmael". These are ALL clearly Biblical locations that are back in the Middle East. The 3 day journey in Alma is a return to the Middle East.
Read Deutoronomy 2:20. Zeezrom from Ammonihah is a Zamzummim from Ammon.
Midoni is the Biblical Midian (it's spelled the Biblical way "Midian" one time).
The Land of Ishmael is clearly Northern Arabia.
The Book of Ether is the Ethiopian Genesis. It describes how Ethiopians left the Garden of Eden, sailed down the Nile to Egypt. Then they sailed the open ocean to Israel. They brought the "milk and honey" from the garden to Israel (The Biblical Land of Milk and Honey).
@@redfightblue that's new and half a bubble off of blum
Ryan, this was the most comprehensive proof on the existence of the Nephites I have ever seen.
May I use some of these images in my presentations? Thank you for a most enjoyable hour!
yes you may
What there no truth to what
This is amazing and very helpful. Towards the end, when you read 'that they might have a space to flee' I immediately thought about the many many native tribes in Canada, to this day. One of the 3 main tribes is called the Metis, who are a mixture of indigenous North American peope or better known to them as 'First Nations' and European disscent... Hmmm
I lived in Manitoba and Saskatchewan for 2 years. It did seem like a very possible scenario considering that's literally what happened later on with the European conquest. Many many people tribes were pushed to the north.
@@Peedarb Right? I will assuredly be doing more digging on these theories. I am reading my dad's old books and one is called "HE WALKED THE AMERICAS" (1963, L.Taylor Hansen) and it goes into great discussion of all the native tribes of America's (north and south) that have a story of Jesus, a prophet who appeared and taught them and told them to call him whatever they chose. It's fascinating stuff.
Ryan, very interesting and compelling. I've been a strong believer that the Book of Mormon took place in North America since my mission about 15 years ago. Thanks for your research and time you put into this presentation. Another thing to consider is that if you take the 1823 version of Webster's dictionary the word "neck" aligns to your hypothesis. It says.... "A long narrow tract of land projecting from the main body, or a narrow tract connecting two larger tracts; as the neck of land between Boston and Roxbury.". Too often today we ascribe words or phrases to our time and our way of understanding. Considering that the Book of Mormon was translated in the early 1800's it makes sense to me it would have been written in the words of that day and time. Thus, another reason interpretation can be lost in translation, especially from Hebrew to English. The reason we read king James version as members of this church is because it's translated the most accurate. Not exact.... This is not a defining point to hinge my testimony on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, just another little gem to strengthen it. Thanks again...
Thank you, for your interest, I am currently a non-denominational Mormon, but I love the book of Mormon.
There are several problems with this analysis for me. The distances described in the BofM are very small. It took only a few days for a large group of people with children and livestock under both Alma's and Limhi's direction to return from the land of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla. Also, it only took Alma 1-3 days to travel between cities on his missionary journey. The distances described in this map that ties to the Hopewell civilization are hundreds of miles apart. It is believable that the Nephites and Lamanites would have migrated to those distances from the Great Lakes, but not the other way around.
I was reading recently in an older BofM where the heading said the River Sidon ran north. While the BofM doesn't say that Sidon runs north, it says that the headwaters of Sidon were in the south, and since water runs down hill it isn't much of a stretch to say that the River Sidon runs north. It also says that those going south from Zarahemla to the land of Nephi went "up." Also, near the end of the BofM it says the Nephites went into the land northward which was "a land of many lakes and rivers." Also, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were taken into a room in the hill Cumorah where there were many (16 as I recall) wagon loads of plates. We know that Mormon moved those plates for safe keeping during a fierce war. It's doubtful that that he could have done that from Mesoamerica (5000 miles) or even Nauvoo (1300 miles).
For me what works best is that all three groups, the Jaredites, the Mulekites, and the Nephites entered N. America through the St Lawrence River to Lake Ontario, which was as far as they could go in a boat because of Niagara Falls. I would suggest that the Jaredites landed somewhere around Toronto, Ontario, and settled in what is now Ontario, Canada. The Mulikites landed near the mouth of the Niagara River and built Zarahemla on the west bank of the river. The Nephites landed about 60-80 miles east of the Niagara River on the south shore of Lake Ontario and went south 50-80 miles to the Land of Nephi. The Niagara River is the only river large enough to throw thousands of bodies into and flows north. The sea east is Lake Ontario, and the Sea west is Lake Erie not that they are on the east and the west, but that from Zarahemla they "run" east and west. JS Smith said that Lake Ontario was the sea east. Also, if one is about where Toronto is, one would be surrounded by water with L. Ontario on the east, Lake Erie on the south, Lake Huron on the west and north. Also, the headwaters of Sidon would be Lake Erie. Also, the Niagara River is 35 miles long and straddles the "narrow neck of land." Covering 35 miles in a day and a half is very doable for a Nephite. The reference to the land northward being "a land of many lakes and rivers" is more abundantly described by the province of Ontario, Canada than any other place in north or south America where all the other geography also works. I would also propose that Hagoth put in his ships on the east coast of Lake Huron and traveled north, perhaps as far as Lake Superior, the region where mideast DNA is most plentiful. Also, it is about 90 miles from the Niagara River to the hill Cumorah where the plates were found--a much more doable distance for Mormon to take 16 wagon loads of plates for safe keeping.
Joseph Fielding Smith, or one of then Smith prophets, said that the people New Zealand are of the people of Hagoth, you can even look it up.
@@thomasmenard8591 SO?
Very Cool research.
Thanks for making this available!
Amazing!!!! I didn't need this information for my testimony but WOW, what amazing facts which proves the Book of Mormon to be true. One could always choose to doubt but when the spirit has born witness then we cannot deny the proof.
BOOK OF MORMON historical errors
In looking at the Book of Mormon we need to compare the people’s living conditions & environment with those of the native Indians. For example, what type of plants does the book mention? Were these plants in America at that time? What animals were said to be in the area? Did the Indians have knowledge of metal working as stated in the Book of Mormon? What was the Indians' written language? How did they travel? How do the claims in the Book of Mormon compare with archaeology? What evidence has been discovered?
The Book of Mormon talks about:
• wheat (Mosiah 9:9)
• horses (1 Nephi 18:25)
• chariots (Alma 18:9-11; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22)
• cows (Enos 21)
• elephants (Ether 9:19)
• silk (Alma 1:29; 4:6; Ether 9:17)
• linen (Mosiah 10:5; Helaman 6:13; Ether 10:24)
• money-pieces of gold and silver (Alma 11:3-20)
• steel (2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9)
NOT ONE of these items was in America before the Spanish arrived ! NONE. This is a shining example of the nature of Mormon fraud, sadly. #
where is the evidence?
Janet McKinney So true! Unbelievers want and mostly will not believe but there will be some who will make the effort to study both by faith and real intent research, finding answers where there doubts are! If they don’t make the effort, they won’t find out!
Ryan Ingram. This is a great video. I am a convert and this issue was one I studied closely as I took in the whole "Mormon" package into consideration. Actually, one of the reasons I investigated this church was after studying Near Death Experiences for 10 years. Here is my testimony: m.ua-cam.com/video/F-SSgsmRG8gI/v-deo.html bring this up because I remember a testimony of a lady that died named Elaine Durham in her book I Stand All Amazed. She didn't know anything about this religion, but she was told in her afterlife experience that the 'Perfect' church was on the earth again today. She said among a ton of other keys to finding the church that there was a connection of the American Indians and their history to this perfected church. I never forgot that statement and now 2 years later I finally figured out that this heartland model is right on track. I think they are going to excavate that temple site across from Navoo soon so that is very exciting! I look forward to your future work! Matt
Also in the menorah lamp mound there is a compass upper left and square bottom right. Amazing evidence of temple worship
Well done!
Somewhat similar to the North and South separation of the CIVIL War
Oh No Doubt.
You've done well. Let me help a little. The where was about 40 feet deeper back then so the Mississippi (Sidon) was as wide as the whole Mississippi River Valley. In other words it was more like an inland sea than you realize.
We need a new “Book of Mormon Lands Tour” to explore these areas!
Thanks.....very enjoyable!
Okay but where are all the remnants of vast cities that they have built, along with temples and homes? There a lack of archaeological evidence
Hopewell ruins are everywhere literally they estimate over 2 million individual structures. Houses made of wood would obviously not still exist but the post molds verify they were there
@@Peedarb would you care to site your sources please?
Saul Santos ua-cam.com/video/jPDsPKFFMkA/v-deo.html
Ever heard of the chemical change from firepits? Firepits are locating sites 6 ft down, and identifying population sizes.
ExRay technology of the last 5 years? guess what it shows?? Guess what it dates?? Guess where it identifies? Are you aware of any of it? will you hide your head in the sand when the results come forth? Doubting Thomases until smacked in the head and still wont believe it
"Let's eat grandpa!" versus, "Let's eat, grandpa!" Yep, punctuation saves lives. 😉
Oh I just read "Book of Mormon Geography" on the church web site.............so grateful for Prophetic guidance!
Thanks for reminding us of another important resource to settle this discussion. President Nelson is the man!
This is awesome. Great job with the correlation of scripture descriptions with Hopewell time frames and migrations
Like a map of Narnia or Middle Earth, this is a map that supports concepts and beliefs but sadly is not based on physical or historical reality.
D'ya think? :-)
Not a Mormon nor a believer in the BoM's historicity, but I have lots of background in history and this is much more plausible than the central American scenario which strikes me as pretty forced and based on 19th century ideas of similarity between Egypt and central America backed by later scholarly attempts to prove them. Your scenario at least starts with a known location and doesn't wander too far afield.
Thank you! I think it makes a lot more sense than any central American scenario as well. It's been a burden to bare with.
@10 Foot Man I find it fascinating that anti-Mormons think anyone who appreciates or defends the LDS must be Mormon even when they tell you they're not. I am not only not a Mormon, I'm a Protestant pastor and have been for over 30 years. I think ecumenical and interfaith activity is important. I once taught a World Religion course at a branch campus of Ohio State University and have participated in activities with Catholics, Mormons, Pentecostals, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Humanists, and even Wiccans. I have never seen the need to disparage other religions, ignore their flaws, or accept their beliefs. I have, however, found it necessary to seek understanding and avoid stereotypes. This approach allows me to work with and have constructive conversations with many people, something my faith in Jesus calls me to do.
Since we're asking questions, why do feel it necessary to attack the LDS or insult people who have never hurt you? Why not just ignore the LDS and find a Faith that you do like? If you disagree with someone, why not just state your case and leave it at that?
@10 Foot Man So sorry for you. You are a mobber and not a Christian, you are a brother of Barabas. A son of Satan and crucifier of Jesus Christ. You speak evil of His Prophet and people and His church.
Liars, Gossipers, are Sons of Lucifer, the First Liar.
There are other places besides North America.
Love this video
+Black Eye Bob, is that why you have a black eye. I am wondering if you know all things that are not true in the universe.
Great insight. Thank you, and God speed!
thanks for watching
This makes much more sense than looking at south and central America. I also look at Doctrine and Covenants Section 32. Revelation given to Joseph Smith to send Parley P. Pratt and Ziba Peterson to accompany Oliver Cowdery to preach to the Lamanites to the west.
Yes it tells us who the lamanites were, and where the promised land is. D&C 57:2
Robert Day This is all made up by a false “prophet”. Please step outside of your indoctrination to learn the real truth. I know it’s hard, but your church’s own history condemns it as false. That is the reason so many previously LDS zealots have left. You don’t have to be in bondage to an organization. Jesus says “My yoke is easy. My burden is light.” Worship the Creator, not the created. ( btw Jesus was not created).
amazing mental gymnastics...
Ryan, I too like the Heartland approach. Your video is a good start.
Maybe you or someone else can help me.
According to John Lund the Nephites kept time based on the Law of Moses and that the "First Month" would be March 21 to April 19. If that were true, would it be warm enough to fight.
Where were the Hopewell located during these time periods?:
• Alma 16:1 (81-77 BC) April 20 to May 18
• Alma 49:1 (72 BC) Jan 14 to Feb 15
• Alma 52:1 (66-64 BC) March 21 to April 19
• Alma 56:1 (62 BC) March 21 to April 19
• Alma 56:27 (65-64 BC) April 20 to May 18
• Alma 56:42 (65-64 BC) Sept 15 to Oct 13
• 3 Nephi 4:7 (19-22 AD) August 16 to Sept 14
• 3 Nephi 4:11 (19-20 AD) August 16 to Sept 14
I notice that there does seem to be a pattern where they are fighting later in the year.
Is that because it is a colder area as they were pushed north? If we can show that the Hopewell were in a warm enough location during the early months then we might have some more evidence.
Matt
I'll be happy to explore that more, early spring seems like a good time to wage a campaign.
+Ryan Ingram Do you where the Hopewell were during those times?
Everywhere the map in the video show
+Matt Johnson I didn't mean to sound short, i will do some more geography videos from the Book Of Mormon text and specific events, Subscribe to stay updated
i lived in Ogden Utah growing up. The church I went to was on a mound, Mound fort 9th and child's I have always though this was a mound from the Book of Mormon times. I was present when a pioneer maker was installed 1970's. The man was talking about a chief that was buired and dug up as the road was cut comming up 9th st
Skip Peterson
You wouldn't be talking about Chief Joseph now would you be!?!..
Chief Joseph who was captured in 1880 in Montana an place on a reservation in Wyoming .
An found around His own neck was a medicne pouch.
By the US Calvalry, an in the poch was found the Cuneiform tablet.
Ha! I served my mission in the land of desolation. That makes sense.
And I served mine at the Waters of Mormon.
Oh, and passed by Zelph a few times.
Helaman 3 says "Desolation" is "treeless", they build with "cement" and they "ship" timber.
Jeremiah 44 says "Desolation" is Israel and soon to be Egypt.
It sure makes a lot more sense that the Nephites were speaking about the Biblical Land of Desolation, not Canada.
Egypt is "treeless" (Sahara desert).
They build with "cement" (stone temples).
and they "ship" timber (Lebanon Cedar).
None of this even remotely describes Canada.
The "people of Ammon" (Helaman 3:12) are clearly coming from the Biblical Ammon in modern day Jordan.
The BOM takes place in Africa. The "Land South" is Africa. The "Narrow Neck" is the Isthmus of Suez.
Lehi was commanded to follow the Nile to Ethiopia. That's where the Bible says the Garden of Eden was. (Genesis 2:13). Lehi knew this. The Nephites were destroyed in Egypt after they migrated back North to Egypt in Helaman 3. This is why the angel tells Nephi his seed will be destroyed on the same river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision. (1 Nephi 12:16). That river is the Nile.
The BOM has nothing to do with America. It was written by Ethiopian Jews.
This is hope based SOS must make a map about something that never existed
Great time to be alive .information age is amazing .how boring folks in past had nothing but replayed stories with no authentication .GOD is revealeing artifacts and manuscripts .that take away any dought .we are reaching that point where man must decide .
This is great!!!
thanks for watching.
+Ryan Ingram Yes I think he needs to too! In my profession I am not able to get to church often. Went yesterday. That feeling is unmistakable. You know you're in the right place!
The Narrow strip of wilderness runs from the east sea to the west sea. Its pretty clear from the scriptures.
the scriptures state that it runs "from the east sea to the west." I would like to point out that there is no sea behind the word west, and though basic grammar in today's society would make it seem like that means it's talking about the same noun, back in ancient times it is doubtful that this was the case, and after an analysis of the writing style of that particular section of the book, it's likely that it simply means running from the east sea into the western direction.
in Alma 22:27. and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west.
The earlier reference to seas does only mention the sea east . but later in the same verse it makes it explicit that the narrow strip ran from sea to sea.
+Dave Gray, Just noting, the word "sea" is also used in one same chapter (in the Book of Mormon during a battle) as the word "river (Sidon)", inferring the same body of water. A large body of water whether a smaller ocean, a lake or a river can all be called by the ancients, a "sea".
Thats a verse I havent come across before do you have the scripture reference.
Do you know the reference? +Marianne T Sites
We tend to think that Mormon had aerial maps to help him describe the land in his day. If I were him, I would also think the Nephites were "surrounded by water" as the large rivers in the mid-west region were very difficult to traverse - especially for an invading army. Just think about the number of boats it would take to move 50,000 men and their supplies across the Mississippi. I am sure the Nephites felt more protected with these water barriers, but it proved to be not enough to keep them safe....
Well said, from his point of view it was a perfect description
One other consideration is if Mormon was describing it from his own time, or the descriptions from maps and the book of the kings from Alma's time.
If from Mormon's time, then yeah, the descriptions could fit.
However, the whole face of the land was changed in 33 AD such that the maps that Alma used would have been less effective for Mormon and for us. These changes means that what was a narrow neck of the land for Alma could have been a sea or a wilderness for Mormon and for us.
This also doesn't consider the other changes to the land that may have occurred from the time Mormon was writing till Europeans ventured in to that region some 1100-1200 years later that we have no writings of and were covered over from natural erosion.
awesome!
Keep in mind water levels were higher then...the Mississippi river was much higher and the gulf of Mexico extended further up the Mississippi River and the great lakes were closer to being one body of water almost extending down to the upward reach of the gulf of Mexico at least in relative terms... geographic evidence shows the southward reach of the lakes and the northward reach of the gulf of Mexico up the Mississippi
Note that the river Sidon and great lakes were larger back then making it even more fitting to being surrounded and the narrow strip of land even more narrow.
Hi Ryan, great job. Have you looked at the Grand Kankakee Marsh (Lake Michigan) and the Great Black Swamp (Lake Erie)? They make the narrow neck smaller for the Line Bountiful to the land northward (Michigan).
from the east sea to the west sea was a day and a half journey for a Nephite .....how to do that in mexico? or the usa? the land south encompassed all the laminates ... Florida produced the endless waves of Lamenites ... think that was from Brazil ...
Haters really come alive for this topic. I’m not sure if your thesis is 100% correct but Nephite lands are definitely North America, our apostles have said as much many times over the years. Enjoyable production.
The nice thing about fictional stories is that you can place them anywhere.
I believe this model is about 3 times larger in area mass than what is talked about in the bulk of the Book of Mormon
No it's not, in fact all distances hasn't been measured using this map and work out exactly
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. No mention of the jaradites and who preceded the Hopewell. Alma 3:3 does not work with the Mississippi being the river Sidon. Just my thoughts
Scott Palmer The Jaredites were called Adena, predecessors to the Hopewell, Wayne May has covered this topic very well, i suggest you have a look, their timelines also match perfectly.
@@Peedarb No they are not. The Adena, like the Illinois tribes of Cahokia, Kaskaskia, Michigamea, Peoria, and Tamaroa do not have Hebrew DNA, cultural artifacts or language that resemble the Jaredite, Lamanite or Nephites. Hi jack someone else's culture - frauds!
@@watcherpalmerlds Good points. Thanks for trying to talk sense into these heartland dreamers. Alma Chapter 2 also makes it clear that the Mississippi River could not be the river Sidon. In verse 24, we see the Amlicites headed in the general direction of the land of Nephi -- which was south of the land of Zarahemla -- on their way to Minon. Minon was at a higher elevation than Zarahemla. So they were traveling south and higher which can only mean that the river Sidon is flowing northward towards Zarahemla and then on to the sea. Which means the heartlanders' claim of the ancient city of Zarahemla being next to the Mississippi is bogus.
Wow, wish I could read the tiny print on the map of all the subcultures. Fascinating!
1. Nice presentation from what was known from 8 years ago. Cumorah was the place where Joseph got the plates AND the location of the final Jaredite and Nephite battles.
2. Your map location for the Wilderness of Hermounts is several hundred miles too far west (see Alma 2) and the land of Zarahemla is way too big per Mosiah 1:9-10, 18 and Alma 2:36. All the people of Zarahemla and Mosiah were invited via proclamation to gather at the Zarahemla Temple the next day to hear King Benjamin speak. They brought animals for sacrifice. I'm guessing the land of Zarahemla was about 20 miles long and 10 miles wide. Those are the max distances for these people to hear/see the proclamation and travel to the Zarahemla temple late on the first day or early the 2nd day.
What about snow? How would they never mention being cold Oct snow or freezing…
Remember that the Book of Mormon has about four or five references to "seasonal" weather or seasons. This would mean that it must be in North America as there is no seasonal weather in Central America. They're also needs to be migrating beasts which is an obvious reference to the buffalo. So they absolutely were familiar with snow,
Alma 46:40
....And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land
Most 18:4
being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.
@@Peedarb Not to be contentious; just sharing some additional information that should not be discounted, ignored, or overlooked. Please know, there are rainy seasons in Central America, and after raining season comes mesquite and insect season, which you surely must know, spreads sickness, typically accompanied by fever. Ever heard of Malaria (or any number of tropical diseases?) You don't need cold winters to have fevers, in fact, most fevers experienced around the world happen in climates where there are no cold temperatures. Fevers are the by-product of the human body fighting off foreign pathogens or infections, which come in a multitude of ways. It's extremely naive and ignorant to think fevers are only reserved for or associated with cold temperatures. Don't make the mistake of believing fevers only come from wintertime sicknesses!
The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message, are descriptions of where and when it took place. Mormon, Moroni, and Joseph provide all the details necessary.
According to the BOM, a New Jerusalem will be built upon this Continent, in a land north of Zarahemla; we know by revelation, as it being more specifically within the current borders of the United States of America, in the current borders of the State of Missouri, at a location currently known as Independence. We also know from the BOM narrative that the Hill called Cumorah by Mormon was north (not east) of the narrow neck of land and in the land of Zarahemla. It's important to remember this when placing Cumorah. Also remember, the New Jerusalem is north of Zarahelma (not west or southwest of Zarahemla). Joseph, knows more about the BOM than any scholar or researcher, Joseph would be the expert on the topic. So did Joseph by chance way in on the regional location of Zarahemla before he died?? Why yes, yes he did. No scholars or researchers needed for this one, Joseph spelled it out as an "important fact" and put it in writing. Proceed with humility.
Because the Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; the BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware, Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested to know this, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church themselves), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. That's what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it, there's no hearsay about it, he printed it. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't necessarily declaring a specific city, that was previously named and mentioned in a previous edition of the T&S was the city of Zarahemla. But that they are, however, of the opinion that the previously named city was a city mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The name of the city comes from a book of an explorer of Central America. Read the T&S article for the full details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named, does not refute the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. Nor does Zarahemla being in Central America diminish Nephites being in the heartland of the north country. In fact, it actually collaborates with the BOM narrative perfectly. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Because, also know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims of other publications in the region, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks, to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this, so long ago, and clearing it up for future generations. Joseph knew dissenters would arise!
Still having heartburn? Well, six weeks after the declaration, Joseph, calls John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season on November 15, 1842. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it, would Joseph have promoted John to Editor? Further, if Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, Joseph did not have it retracted; Joseph is the one who published it. Truth is, Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't.
What, still more heartburn? Okay, next, go to the Church's website and search - Book of Mormon Geography. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka today, as Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda ruins speculation. Don't let anyone trick you into thinking Joseph wasn't Editor and in charge of the T&S in Oct of 1842. Also know, Joseph, never provided the exact location of Zarahemla, only the general area of it being in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day, via widely available published maps. Now this is fun; for additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the lands of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits.
If Zarahemla is in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate the BOM narrative masterfully. In Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 it states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, since before Christ even. It's all accounted for in the BOM. There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required to see that it all fits the book's narrative. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the main storyline Book of Mormon Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America, no surprise there, however, the northern Nephite evidence we find, is not evidence of the main BOM Nephite lands of Zarahemla or Bountiful, where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt. Now you know; if you choose to discount or ignore it, that's on you, but, now you know. You can trust Joseph or you can trust Wayne. The feeling of my heart tells me to go with the Lord's prophet on this one.
Anyone know where I can get this map with lands, cities and current state/city over-lays? It's very helpful as I read TBoM. Man, I remember when I was a kid looking at that big, silly blob-map that looked to resemble Central America ... I found it very confusing and frustrating. THIS map, however, really brings it together. I have a couple of points of contention, sure... but who knows how the land and rivers and lakes and ocean shores were changed at 33 AD. I'd really like to get this on a map to hang on the wall so I can follow along as I read. Anyone?
There is a link in the description
@@Peedarb Yeah, cool link... but I was hoping for a printable map that showed the cities. I see how the archaeological stuff can be de-selected and the story stuff can be selected and love how the lands are shown and superimposed but the cities just come up as a dot that are not labeled and their are areas that are not clear ... like wildernesses and separations. Great job on the map! I love it! But, it would be nice to get something more detailed I can point to quickly so my kids (and myself) can just look at it like a modern day map. Something nice that can be put on the wall and maybe framed would be cool
David. Get The National Geographic road map of Mexico at a bookstore. Use the half the includes Guatemala. Here are some landmarks that actually match Alma 22, Alma 63, Alma 2 and other Actual sites: the area north and east of Guatemala city is land of Nephi. City of Salama is likely Nephi. Narrow strip of wilderness is the Cuchumatana mountains along the rift valley running coast to coast. Sidon is the Grihalva river that starts in the Narrow Strip. Zarahemla is now under Lake Angostura. Wilderness of Hermount is Region de Los Chimalapas. Narrow neck and pass are Minatitlan south across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Hagoth launched from the natural harbor on the Southwest side of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. The Mulekites landed probably in the area of the Olmec ruins of LaVenta then moved up to Zarahemla. The Nephites probably landed on the coast west of Guatemala City. Cumorah is around the Olmec ruins of Tres Zepotes in Vera Cruz, the land northward. Mormon left most of the plates there and Moroni had 36 year to get his small collection to "a large hill" in New York. This geography works. What about the Hopewell? Helaman 3.
Additionally, his Hopewell dates (Wayne May's) are way off by about 450 years. Hopewell is a name given to various people in the range of about 200 BC to about 500 AD. May fudges the numbers to get it closer to 588 BCish. His map, to quote him "is a bit of a stretch" to say the least. Read Alma 22 and Helaman 3 carefully. I can see people coming up with various geographies. But when they make it an article of faith like May and Meldrum, I think Jacob would call that "looking beyond the mark. "
@@UtahKent Can also refer to 3 Nephi chapters 3 & 4 for clarification. Those chapters show that when the Nephites gathered in one under the direction of Lachoneus, they had to be in an area small enough so that it could be defended and besieged. No way that action could have taken place on the map this video shows -- way too much territory.
There's a great book by an LDS author that shows that there's perfect harmony between the prophetic statements concerning the garden of Eden being in Missouri and the Old Testament account concerning the garden of Eden. It's called Canaan, Babylon, and Egypt A Comparative Theological Analysis on Creation sold by Eborn Books.
Loved it. Great job.
Is there Closed Captioning available for this?!! It's AMAZING!! My husband is really hard of hearing and can't hear his voice.
I'm not sure if I can do that but I'll try and see if I can
I am also hard of hearing, but I was able to hear his presentation well. I hope that you can get what you need. This is terrific!
Why would they describe the great lakes as a sea other than its size...it is not salty? They crossed the sea and would understand the difference between lakes and the sea right?
In the ancient Levant, all bodies of water were called "seas", the Sea of Galilee, the red Sea, etc. There are even texts that refer to the Nile River as a Sea.
@@Peedarb Are you serious?
@@brianmurphy7639 Not all seas are salty. See dictionary definition 1d: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sea . In addition to the sea of Galilee, there's the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Sea of Azov.
Go back 2000 years ago and ask em what they understood
VERY GOOD JOB!!
Just wondering Ryan if you have heard of the Great Black swamp that was anciently located upper Ohio. Look it up because it is a probable place for the narrow neck. It was drained for development. I live in ohio and never knew about this until about a year ago. It makes so much sense.
Don't think so. Nice try though. Haven't explained how they would have sailed up the St. Lawrence to the Great Lakes.
My guess is it was on a boat.
well how did they get here in the first place???
@@darleneniehaus9111 Ask yourself some other questions first. When was the flood? When was Pangea? What were the land situations back then? What were the water situations back then? Lots of situations to solve. The BofM says little saucers shaped boats. tied together,, Book of Ether
I am also always amazed at HOW the universities and archaeologist keep saying ...unknown.. reason of extinction?
We may guess as to why,it might upset their own history of colonization and history per se?
The archaelogical record that we have today, DISPROVES the fictional Book of Mormon, conclusively.
James Garland The archaeological record that we have today,is in complete. What people have given names to, of today, does not reflect or recognize their true names back then. Smithsonian has artifacts dating back 2,000 or so, yet some of it is NOT recognized by them for those periods....BAT Creek tablet as an example, they [professors] cannot agree whether it is jewish or not even though the inscription is?
+James Garland so you are this amazing expert. what makes you the expert.
+Diana Kearns his pastor told him
+Ryan Ingram so what church does his pastor belong to.
Interesting scenario. Actually did anyone notice the origin of the word Cree? Wikipedia says: "The name "Cree" is derived from the Algonkian-language exonym Kirištino˙, which the Ojibwa used for tribes around Hudson Bay. The French colonists and explorers, who spelled the term Kilistinon, Kiristinon, Knisteneaux, Cristenaux, and Cristinaux, used the term for numerous tribes which they encountered north of Lake Superior, in Manitoba, and west of there". So that means some folks around the Great Lakes (Northern Wilderness) were called "Christians" before European contact. Might be that a small group of believers survived, which Moroni was not aware of?
Theres a lot of Cree in Manitoba, I loved there on a mission
Don't get sucked into "helping" trolls. If you feed them they return.
Wyoming Horseman I see you ran from my bee information!
America had been called Turtle Island along time ago
This ruction about the book of Mormon is an unfortunate distraction. The most important part of the Mormon faith is we need to make sure that we are faithful to the will of Heavenly Father, and practice the things that please him. That is all that matters.
true, but it IS fun to speculate. I'm pretty sure Heavenly Father doesn't care either way as long as it doesn't harm our faith if proven false. also, it slightly strengthens faith, so it might be a good thing
Space on the plates was so precious that the authors and Mormon were extremely careful about the information they provided therein. If research into the "where" is so unimportant, why did they include so many directions, times & distances?
My feeling is that although it clearly takes a far back seat to the "why" (the doctrine), that the authors wanted us to know where things took place so we could learn from the societies they were writing about. There are other reasons as well. All knowledge is good knowledge. As is, this is still speculative, but very interesting. Take care friend.
It doesn't hurt Mormons "more" to point to other options. Joseph Smith pointed out locations, and for good reason. It has not helped to point to Central America, and Joseph Smith knew that as well. It will never hurt to point to areas Joseph already pointed to, because if you have a testimony of his being the prophet, he spoke the Truth. He never once pointed to Central America that way. He would not have allowed the brethren to do so either, but they must have gone over his head (while he was in jail unable to stop it), because he had said "no" to any attention to Central America. There is no doubt a solid reason for that. I think this is more than just a "model of guesses" & I'll tell you why--"this land" being a free one with a Constitution that protects it shows far more than "guesses". The restoration era fits the free, Constitutional US, purely because of freedom itself, & additionally because Isaiah and Nephi both said it'd be esteemed as the greatest nation of ALL, worldwide.
Marianne T Sites In retrospect, so much persecution of the Mormons was a direct violation of the Amendments of the Constitution. I'm convinced that Joseph Smith's eventual default of the Kirtland Bank was simply part of a nation wide economic depression, now called "The Panic of 1837" and not fraudulent on his part. Polygamy was the other sad issue, and was plainly forbidden in the Book of Jacob, Chapter 2. Joseph Smith was no more flawed than David in the Old Testament.
Silver Eagle Hmmm. Care to document that? As you might imagine, what I have heard is very different.
? Why leave Yemen, sail south around Africa, then north to the Gulf of Mexico and park on it's northern coast?
The Mulekites going west and north and into the St. Lawrence Seaway is more plausible.
Why is it that people of today think that people of former times couldn't travel long distances? Didn't use ships, had no knowledge of building or other technology?
someday we will know for sure.
I think he reason it seems to skip from New York (8) to Minnesota (9) (around the 30 minute mark) in the description is that 7 is a different "round about" from the "round about" on the southern side (the Applaichans). It seems to describe a northern "round about" which is the land between Detroit and Chicago (currently northern Michigan) that is on the borders of the seashore - west side of Lake Huron and east side of Lake Michigan. That would explain why the next location described is in Minnesota.
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I was born and raised in Iowa there are mounds everywhere here, they turn them into government parks.
There is actually one of the oldest hopewell sites in Iowa also at more then 500bc. I just screenshot a map the other day on the Hopewell and adena timeline and sites
thanks for this
thank you for watching
Good job! I loved it, even when with your plausible arguments have destroyed my feelings about a Mesoamerican lands of Book of Mormon :) Sincerely, I feel more comfortable with your conclusions. Just need to justify another geographic references like volcanoes, etc. Greetings from sunny Costa Rica.
thanks for watching, I felt the same way
I like your model, but I have a few questions: I'm no expert, but the BoM seems clear that the river Sidon flows from south to north. How could that be the Mississippi? Also, the BoM never mentions anything about cold, but mentions heat quite frequently. If the Nephites were so far north, don't you find that a little troubling?
true
yer rite..u aint no xpert otherwise cite the scripture that clearly states the sidon flows north
while yer at it, name a gr8 river that flows north in mesoamerica since thats yer criteria
---
hav u evva been 2 the heartland in the summer? cuz it gets wicked hot w humidity
the BofM does mention hail n whirlwinds, which hav nevva happend in the proposed mesoamerica setting
yet u dont find that troubling?
The BoM itself does not say whether Sidon flows north or south. The Wikipedia article "River Sidon" says that at one time an index to the BoM made the distinction that the river flowed north. You'll find that most (if not all) the major rivers in the new world flow in all general directions except North. The Mississippi generally flows south, the Ohio flows west, the Missouri flows east, the Amazon also flows east along with the Orinoco, Rio Grand flows South then southeast, the Colorado flows west and south.....
I too could not find a BOM scripture stating the River Sidon flows from south to north. I looked and could not find. Thanks for clearing this up.
The B of M says the headwaters were south and "up." If water runs downhill then it runs north, just like the Niagara River which is also large enough to carry thousands of bodies tossed into it.
Well done. The heartland model is the only geography that I can believe as being rational
You forgot the Fantasy Island model 😂😂😂
Remember also that there has possibly been significant change in water levels in North America throughout the past 2000 years due to massive earthquakes. The Mississippi river and the great lakes may have been much larger or differently shaped bodies of water, whether very significant or not, I think this adds reasonable room for error. The heartland model is the only probable model for the Book of Mormon geography. I’ve been to the Yucatan peninsula and visited the ruins and geography. There is nothing there that suggests that land is choice above other lands or that the people who lived there were people who believed in our God. For some reason a lot of people’s “testimonies” seem to be contingent on the idea that the Book of Mormon happened in central America…
Good point. We’ve learned from the current drought and flooding how fast water changes the land.
They have also proven those sites in central and south America were built by a pagan society, complete with human sacrifice, strictly forbidden to an Israelite-based society (God).
Ryan, Alma 50 states that the Land of Nephi extended from the Sea East to the West which I interpret as being roughly the entire Appalachian mountains. Having the Land of Nephi only in your southern blue section works until you are halfway through the Book of Alma, then the descriptions of movements to the Land of Nephi must be further to the north to work out. Then I saw Alma 50 about the Land of Nephi extending from Sea East, and that clinched it for me. The entire Land of Nephi encompasses the southern blue and the Southern / Eastern States grey area. Thanks for your work.
That's a great scripture, prove to me that there is no Sea on the west of the land Nephi only on the East and that the land Nephi Extends indefinitely to the West.
There is sea on the West. I look at Lake Michigan as Sea West. Let me put together a more thorough answer. It may take me a couple of days.
+Brian Nettles well what I mean is there's no Sea on the west of Nephi, it just runs in a straight course indefinitely to the West. I do believe Lake Michigan is probably Sea West
Ryan, once again, I think you have done a great job with this video. Here are some of the things which come to my mind as I read in Mosiah and Alma.
In the Book of Mosiah, I agree mostly with you and Rod Meldrum. However, I differ in one area. I seem to think that the Waters of Mormon are not where Rod says it is; instead, I think where he places the Waters of Mormon better describe the Land of Helam where Alma and his followers fled to and dwelt for about 20 years. In the book of Mosiah, when the Land of Nephi is talked about, the area in Eastern Tennessee seems a very good candidate.
When you move over into the Book of Alma, we know where the land of Zarahemla is just as you have described. The Land of Antionum is east of Zerahemla at the southern sea shore which puts it near Chicago. The Land of Jershon was north of this location - likely in Minnesota. After Antionum became a Lamanite land, the AntiNephiLehis crossed the Mississippi and went south to Manti.
It becomes difficult to recall all the details found in the later chapters of Alma, nevertheless, it appeared the there was much done to defend themselves from the Lamanites in the Lands Roundabout in modern day Virginia and Pennsylvania. What stood out to me was in Alma 50:8 where it says And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west. How I interpreted this was that the boundary line for the Land of Nephi was from Lake Ontario following westwardly (actually more of a southwest) direction following the Appalacian Mountains down into Tennessee. I could be wrong but this is how I interpreted it. With this description, the area of Niagra falls becomes a critical strategic path for the Lamanites to take into the lands of the Nephites when wanting battle. If the Lamanites went straight through Ohio, or West Virginia, they would be spotted and there could be no element of surprise in the battle of the less fortified inner cities of the Nephites. Through the Narrow Neck of Land of Niagra, this would give them a clear path to the land of Antionum and the Lamanites would still have the advantage of the element of surprise on cities away from the border lands.
Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts. Best wishes.
Holy cow, so cool♡
thanks for watching
I believe the orange area extended over land as far as Peru where there are many archeological sites.
Marsha Hosford yes, especially for the jaredites
Great job breaking that down. Big fan of Wayne Mays work and always wanted to break it down how you just did.
I spent a bit of time putting Wayne Mays and his ridiculous presentation in a headlock. A lot of what I wrote there applies to the nonsense by Ryan in this video. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/zcii9P3Zd5w/v-deo.html
Enjoy!
Well, I fully agree. Love Wayne May and Rod Meldrums work. There is no doubt the building construction and geography shows the North Americans as the land of the B of M. They didn’t build with stone, and Joseph Smith was quite clear that this is the place. There is 1 Hill Cumoura. Not 2. The evidence of Central American falls flat. But what’s truly important here is the truthfulness of the book, not its geography.
@@darrenasphalt9133 When the Church decided to comment on Book of Mormon geography, they didn't consult the Nehorites May or Meldrum. Your opinion of them is fine as long as you are adult enough to admit you're wrong.
Hey Doug,
😆 I’m sticking with Joseph Smith on this one. I respect the Central America theory. I really do. I have spent time down there and saw some compelling petroglyphs and architecture. Again, it boils down to this, the Book of Mormon is a warning for our day. We are in the very last seconds brother. I love your passion. I hope you have studied up on Ezras Eagle. Google and UA-cam. Research it and see what you think. Hope I shared something that will have some meaning. Take care and let’s meet up in the afterlife, if I’m wrong, I’ll give you a big hug and admit it!
Doug
It’s not right of me to ask for you to look up Ezras Eagle (has nothing to do with B of M) and not look into your suggestions. I will. If we don’t look at every angle, we cannot have an accurate view on the subject. Ezras Eagle is end time prophecy I believe you’ll enjoy. You obviously love the gospel as I do. I will do what you asked. I’ll come back and let you know. Thanks for the info.
The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message, are descriptions of where and when it took place. Mormon, Moroni, and Joseph included all the details necessary.
Moroni never referred to the hill, where he buried the plates, as Cumorah. He met with Joseph many, many times for years and never once referred to it as Cumorah. Joseph never mentions Moroni mentioning the name of the hill where he got the plates. In Joseph's history, he names off all the scriptures, places, events, and previous prophets, Moroni mentioned during his visits, surely Moroni knows the name of the hill he knew as Cumorah. Moroni names everything else; why would he not refer to this hill by name?? Because the hill where he buried the plates in, he didn't know by name; he was led to it by the spirit after having wandered for 30+ years, so the plates would be in a constitutionally free country and where Joseph's family would be. Remember, Mormon gave the plates to Moroni at Cumorah and instructed Moroni to am-scram to protect the plates. Moroni carried the plates away from Cumorah, he didn't bury them in Cumorah.
Also, keep in mind, Joseph wasn't the one who started calling the hill, Cumorah; other saints did. Nowhere in the BOM or Joseph's histories (pick a version, it doesn't matter) does Joseph or Moroni, ever call the hill in NY, Cumorah. It was Oliver Cowdery and other saints, who first called the hill in NY Cumorah, not Joseph, nor Moroni. Realize, it's a common practice for people to name places after other places. Much like the Saints who settled Utah, naming the predominant mountain South of Utah Lake, Mt. Nebo; it doesn't mean it's the same Mt. Nebo Moses stood upon overlooking the promised land. Good grief. It's an honorary name and it became common vernacular by the Saints to reference the hill where Joseph dug up the plates as Cumorah; they had to call the hill something in conversation. In Joseph's history written in 1838, years after the saints had been calling the hill in NY, the Hill Cumorah, Joseph still doesn't refer to the hill as Cumorah in his history, he has it recorded as 'a hill of considerable size', even though by this time, it had become the nomenclature of the saints to refer to the hill, where he got the plates, as Cumorah. The name Cumorah is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as where Moroni received the plates from his father, if the hill in NY is the real BOM Cumorah, the one where Mormon buried all the records, why would Joseph go out of his way to not have the "actual" known name of the hill referenced in his history?? Because Joseph and Moroni, both knew it was not the hill Mormon was at; accuracy matters for the recorded history. Again, the NY hill was originally referred to as Cumorah, first, by other Ladder-day Saints, not Moroni, nor Joseph.
Once, the saint had adopted calling the hill in NY, Cumorah, Joseph was fine with the endearing and honorary name, of calling the hill Cumorah in conversations himself, as that's what the saints were used to, as identifying the hill where he received the plates. Thus there is the original BOM Cumorah, which Mormon and Moroni knew, and also an honorary Hill Cumorah in NY, named by the saints. Don't let some theorist inject another narrative other than what is recorded in the official history. It's important to make the distinction.
According to the BOM, a New Jerusalem will be built upon this Continent, in the land north of Zarahemla, we know by modern-day revelation, as being more specifically within the current borders of the United States of America, in the current borders of the state of Missouri, at a location currently known as Independence. We also know from the BOM narrative that the Hill called Cumorah by Mormon was north (not east) of the narrow neck of land and in the region of Zarahemla. It's important to remember this when placing Cumorah. Also remember, the New Jerusalem is north of Zarahelma (not west or southwest of Zarahemla)
Because the Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; the BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware, Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested to know this, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both would become presidents of the Church themselves), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. That's what Joseph believed, and he printed it, there's no hearsay about it, he printed it. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't necessarily declaring a specific city, that was previously named and mentioned in a previous edition of the T&S was the city of Zarahemla. But that they are, however, of the opinion that the previously named city was a city mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The name of the city comes from a book by an explorer of Central America. Read the T&S article for the full details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named, does not refute the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. Nor does Zarahemla being in Central America diminish there being Nephites in the heartland of the north country. In fact, it actually collaborates the BOM narrative perfectly.
Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims of other publications in the region, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thank you, to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this, so long ago, and clearing it up for future generations. Joseph knew dissenters would arise! Six weeks later, Joseph, calls John Taylor to replace himself as the new Editor of the Times and Season on November 15, 1842. Logic and common sense dictate, if John Taylor published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's consent, and Joseph didn't agree with it, would Joseph have promoted John to Editor? Further, if Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and disagreed with the bold declaration, Joseph would have had it retracted. Joseph did not have it retracted, as he is the one who published it. Truth is, Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, that Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't.
Next, go to the Church's website and search - Book of Mormon Geography. The church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement, they do acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further, confirm and substantiate Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America. Very interesting indeed. Don't let anyone try and trick you into thinking Joseph wasn't editor and in charge of the T&S in Oct of 1842. Joseph, never provided the exact location of Zarahemla, only the general area of it being in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala as he would have known it in his day, via widely available published maps. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835) open a properly labeled map, and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day, extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of BOM lands, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits.
Does the BOM accommodate Joseph's comment of "plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate the BOM narrative masterfully. In Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 it states many groups of Nephites left Zarahemla/Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how Zelph and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful, aka the main storyline of the Book of Mormon land. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla, and the New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, since before Christ. It's all accounted for in the BOM. There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required to see that it all fits the book's narrative. Joseph's plains of the Nephites comment, along with the Zelph story all collaborate with the BOM account. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the main storyline Book of Mormon land Nephites of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America, no surprise there, however, the northern Nephite evidence we find, is not evidence of the main BOM Nephite lands of Zarahemla.
Matthew 23 - 24 - 14 in the New Testament
And this gospel of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all NATIONS and the end will come.
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And it is NOT the book of Mormon.
@@thomaspearson1919 It is the gospel of Christ that will be taught to all nations. And, as each book in the New Testament of the Bible testifies of Christ; so also does the Book of Mormon testify of Christ and His gospel, which will be taught to all nations, it's true. Best wishes!
The book of Mormon has more than 4,000 alterations and name changes, it was plagiarised from the Bible and other scriptures, Meaning the book of Mormon it is FAKE book since 1830 The most correct book ever written said Joseph Smith 1830 -1844.
So why was the book of Mormon in 1981 changed to
They shall be WHITE and delight some people, so they shall be PURE and delight some people. One out of 4,000 changes.
And your founder of your church Joseph Smith said he was greater than Jesus Christ..
Quote I have more to boast of than ever any man had, I am the only man that has ever been to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. Neither Paul - John - Peter NOT even Jesus Christ did it.?
Joseph Smith, history of the Mormon church Vol p 408 - 409.
This is Smith in his own words in a book written by Smith himself.
Joseph Smith claims he was greater than Jesus Christ.
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have a nice day
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@@thomaspearson1919desperate
LOCATIONS NEAR JOSEPH SMITH 200 MILE RADIUS Who Plagiarised his own country America.
Lehigh Valley Pa.
Oneida. NY.
Angolah. NY.
Morgantown Pa.
Jacobsburg. Pa.
Alma Quebec.
Shilohi OH.
Kiskiminitas OH.
river.
Morin Quebec
Sherbrooke Quebec.
Tecumseh Quebec.
Ripley ME..
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THE WORDS AND NAMES IN THE MORMON BOOK.
Lehi.
Onidah.
Angola.
Morianton.
Jacobugath.
Alama.
Shilohi.
Kishkumen.
Moron.
Shurr.
Teacum.
Riliancum
Just match them together, and what do you see plagiarism
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When Joseph Smith [ Adult and c/o ] wrote the book of Mormon, he plagiarised from the King James version of the Bible, which can be readily seen by anyone willing to objectively compare the two book.
The king James version of the Bible, was translated from early manuscripts of original languages of the Bible which were,
Hebrew - Greek - And Aramaic. The book of Mormon is claimed to have been translated from reformed Egyptian which is a language with NO evidence that it ever existed.
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THE BIBLE JOHN 3 = 16.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life..
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So which Jesus Christ do you follow the Mormon Jesus, or the Biblical Jesus. ?????
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Punctuation can make a huge difference period :)
Not surprised, after I read the books by Duane R. Aston.
Those who hold to the heartlands model should watch John Lund's lecture at ua-cam.com/video/MRU6-vAQ4LA/v-deo.html. One wonders what sort of serpents in New York could cut of a large narrow neck of land in a blinding snow storm? One wonders where the concrete buildings are? There's very high quality concrete in Mesoamerica. And though Ryan says the Book of Mormon map has been deciphered, he fails to show us a map. Where's the narrow neck of land? And given that the real Hill Cumorah is _north_ of the narrow neck, the little drumlin cannot find a place that fits. After "New" Cumorah, Ryan uses highly debatable, cherry picked and ambiguous points to wend his way west. He locates Manti, then possibly Zarahemla, the waters of Mormon, all without regard to distances. He ignores the prophet's enthusiasm over Mesoamerica as though it didn't exist. And the only answer to the weather issue I've read so far is that the Nephites wrote heavy animal skins "to keep warm." (Actually, the Book of Mormon never says they did it to keep warm. I suspect they did it to protect themselves from enemy weapons, which is what most warriors did when they went to battle.) Not only is there concrete, we have striking similarities in culture, writing and history. They've even found a reference to a king by the name of Kish, who lived at the same time as the Book of Mormon Kish.
No one says there were no Nephites or Lamanites in the North American plains. We know there were Nephite explorers who went north. We can say that there's a far greater probability that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, not in the North American heartlands.
of course, Joseph Smith was once handed a book about mesoamerica, and he told the person that it was the most correct book about those areas. if the book of Mormon took place in mesoamerica, wouldnt the book or Mormon be the most correct book of those areas? also, there's evidence that the "enthusiasm" you're referring to was an article stating that Lego landed in Peru was actually written by someone other than Joseph Smith, as all of Joseph's articles were signed by him, and this one was not
+Cameron Davis by the way that is not Lego that is Lehi. autocorrect is the worst
+Cameron Davis, I agree with you. If that was the Times and Seasons article, then Joseph Smith's being in jail at the time that others published it as though Joseph wrote it, was a sad occurrence indeed. It was manipulative. And it was needy, because while Joseph felt inspired location-wise, others in the church wanted to have big obvious evidence to show the world, partly in order to stop the mobbing and harassment. It has not helped to point to Central America and that location draws more harassment because of clear inconsistencies.
There is no place in MesoAmerica that fits the huge message of the Book of Mormon taking place in a promised land- as a nation. For all the supposed evidence, the prophecies and politics just don't square with me. North America on the other hand, fits exactly...including Nephis vision of North America, Columbus, Pilgrims, Revolutionary War, etc.