Battle Breakdown : Battle of the Line (Babylon 5)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- What's up Lore Master's - We'll be talking about the Battle of the Line .. The last battle of the Earth-Minbari war and where the Minbari would surrender.
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Mars was bypassed as was Rabaul when the US Pacific Fleet went onto attack the Japanese islands, sometimes it’s easier to let bases ‘wither on the vine’.
No doubt Mars was bypassed as relatively trivial, and insignificant. A few million colonists, at most. And no military capability to speak of.
How do you think that fact went along with the later events?
I think one also has to take into account orbital dynamics. If Mars was on the other side of the sun from Jupiter and Earth, why not wait until you knocked out the homeworld, since there's no point in opening a jumpgate in-system? If you knock out Earth, you can then zip on past the sun to take out Mars.
I was about to make the same point, but after such a long time I was sure someone already pointed this out. It was a deliberate strategy in WWII called "island- hopping."
"If the enemy has an impenetrable fortress, endeavour to make sure he stays there." Discworld General Tacticus.
The actress that played the President was also awesome as Rachel Garrett, captain of the Enterprise.
Enterprise-C.
Not the bloody a or b
Cmon man, you gotta put that C on the end, you call yourself a Trekker? 🤣
@@_BLACKSTAR_ You got me, I'll travel back in time a la Star Trek IV to two years ago WHEN I CARED ;)
When a video is still being watched, comments and replies continue for years, perhaps even decades. Consider it a digital posthumous honour.
Every time I hear the President's speech I get goose bumps.
I cried
@@mostlymessingabout me too
@@michelecastellotti9172 dammit. You message made me watch it again right now. 😥😓😫😢😭
@@mostlymessingabout *evil laughter*
I cry every time so powerful
Desperation was their situation, bravery was their choice on how to face it
RIP Michael O'Hare. Considering what he went thru, it's a testament to his work ethic that we got such a great performance.
Agreed
Wait, he died?!? Jesus..Rip..now he is where no shadows fall.
@@ML-yn9yu look for a behind the scenes video of Michael Straczynski talking about him and what he did for him. very moving. It may be on UA-cam
About half the caste are gone nearly ) :
Here's a link to a video where JMS talks about Michael O'Hare.
ua-cam.com/video/AwyAo_YjtdM/v-deo.html
Awesome tragic backstory for the Battle of the Line.
Awesome narration by Londo in "In the Beginning".
Awesome speech by the President.
Awesome call to arms and awesome courage displayed by everyone to keep humanity alive.
Awesome reveal by Delenn that Sinclair had Valen's soul, which he really really did.
Awesome confusion from everyone, including the Minbari, when they surrendered to Earth.
Awesome setup for the Babylon 4 arc to make sense.
Thank you JMS, for creating such a rich and wonderful world.
The Battle Of The Line is what happens when you cross The Battle Of Wolf 359 with Sacrifice of Angels, but with far more emotional depth.
when the couldn't run they crawled and when they couldn't crawl they found someone to carry them.. wait what?🤣🤣🤣
Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast. Once it came out the Minbari would have to see the greatest Minbari who ever lived, " the best of us" as Leneer said, was a human officer of no high rank or fame. Their best, was a human above average, but no where near the humans best. They already see themselves in decline. This would just be humiliating.
you forgot that the minbari faith sees all existance as a massive introspection of reality trying to figure itself out, finding out that humans and minbari shared souls would be to them the same as finding out they had just commited genocide on themselves. a minbari killing an other minbari was seen by all three castes as one of if not the worst taboo they could be guilty of. thats where their humiliation would stem from not from, valens status as a hybrid.
He was also the first human Anla'shok Na.
"It Failed"
But in the Shadow War it became something greater. The last best hope for Victory.
Indeed
Hearing those intro lines change over the seasons really added weight to wait was happening and showed the evolution of the setting and the unfolding events
Love the series. But yes, this question of why the Minbari stop after going on this jihad to whip out the humans for such a petty reason would be driving the Galaxy nuts. I sympathize with the warrior caste being sent to bath in blood killing others they must have realized we're fighting more honorably then them. Then have the religious cast just say stop, never mind. And not explain.
To the Galaxy, it makes them think the Minbari, a very powerful race, have gone completely capricious and vicious almost beyond any equivalent in the lore of the Babylon 5 universe. Even the Shadows weren't supposed to have committed genocide of whole races of a whim. Hell everyone would be banding together and arming up as a co defense force against the Minbari. Narn and Centuri would sincerely sign co defense pacts against the Minbari Yould expect folks on Babylon 5 crossing hallways and leaving rooms if Minbari enter; and Minbari having to come to terms as not being seen as mature and spiritual - but as rabid animals and savages. Irredeemable in the eyes of the others. Especially give the humans in the dollar war and other actions had gained some respect among other races.
On minbar, it would easily be as bad. A whole civilization forced at a whim by the grey council into a massive bloody war. A war they would be scared by having to bloody themselves in, and then it was stopped at a whim with no explanation. Why would the grey council not be called to task?
One of the magnificent things JMS did is evolve characters and civilizations. In the end no one was quite what they seemed even to them self. Oddly in the end the two races that at the start seemed the most advanced technologicly and as a society, the Vorlon and Minbari, in the end looked worse and worse. The Minbari so hide bound and ritualized under Vorlon tutoring they were crystal in and brittle. Unable often to even sleek the truth much less face it. The Vorlon rather then aloof and insular, were manipulating everything behind the scene.
Kelly Starks The Grey Council explained it to the Warrior Caste and some flat out disbelieved them. That's why a rouge Sharlin Cruiser comes to B5 and tries to get fired upon. They wanted to reignite the war in an honourable way by getting killed by humans, because they felt their duty was not fulfilled. Stupid warriors!
The main thing isn't that they stopped.
It's that they tried at all.
Evil.
@@JoshSweetvale
The Humans were the key to change because the Minbari, Centauri and Nan were all in decline:
Kosh: "They are dying"
Sheriden: "Who? The Nan or the Centauri?"
Kosh: "Yes"
[birth of a meme btw]
Meanwhile for a thousand years every generation of Minbari were lesser than the previous generation, they too knew for a thousand years since the last Shadow war that they had stagnated and were going extinct. The Humans by their very nature of building massive and massively diverse communities were already starting to stride through the galaxy like giants, like first ones. All the other races had become dogmatic and of singular purpose in identity, behaviour, industry and religion, their ambitions were limited to this condemning them to forever turn in the same old circles with same old petty behaviours and petty wars never realising they were slaves to greater masters. Masters that had forgotten their pledge of care and forgotten how their own societies grew and so caused the stagnation in the young races by turning them into a mirror of their own petty differences.
Its not that Humans have Minbari souls, its that Minbari had Human souls
Delenn said their greater souls went to the humans.
@@timriggins70 Yeah, starting 1,000 years previous, so in the 1200's by Earth reckoning. By the time the 2200's came around there was basically no difference anymore.
The Lenear said they were weakening. The greatest souls Wernt being reborn to Minbari, and hadn't been for a long time. He also said Valentin was the "greatest of us, though he was not one if us". Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast.
@@KellyStarks I think it was a misinterpretation based on their failure to understand the nature of where those "souls" came from. Valen joined them 1,000 year prior and added human genes into the Minbari pool. I believe this is where the "greater souls" came from. Those with Valen's blood activated the Triluminary and the stronger they were in his bloodline (the more human genes) the stronger the Triluminary activated. As those 1,000 years wore on, the genes became diluted across the many millions of descendants, with some like Delenn still having a strong human component (allowing her own metamorphosis to take place), but most not having any at all. To the Minbari it looks as if their greatest souls, the most passionate and ambitious, were leaving. When they discover those souls in humans they think the souls must have gone there, but the truth is that their greatest souls CAME from humanity and they've all but bred them out over the last 1,000 years. The solution, of course, was a joining of the species at the other end of the 1,000 years, with Delenn and Sheridan, in the same way Valen joined the Minbari.
altrocks that would assume they saw their souls before then, before the human/Minbari hybridization, as weaker then the post Valen/Sinclair Minbari.
I wish we could have a JMS Babylon 5 reboot, with the funding and production values of BSG.
Unfortunately this is not likely to happen.
So B5 must endure... all alone in the night.
I think the series as it stands is nearly perfect. Any attempt to continue or reboot it would most likely disappoint. It's the nature of TV that most shows go on too long and decline in quality because of that.
@Elron I couldn't agree with you more.
3 years after this comment, it's happening.
the surrender was a really strange thing to do. The humans were at their lowest and willing to surrender unconditionally.
The Minbari could just have send: "Unconditional surrender accepted."
It might be a religious tenet that if someone recognised he's in the wrong to make amends.
And in the case of a war this results in an aggressor surrendering if his reason for the war is proven to be wrong.
IIRC the show only stated that the Minbari surrendered but not that it was an unconditional surrender.
So in that way the Minbair allowed the humans to dictate the terms of the surrender only to a degree.
If it had been an unconditional surrender EarthGov would have demanded access to Minbari technology (what nation wouldn't want access to technology hundreds of years more advanced than their own)
In my opinion they were ashamed of what they had done, and didn't want to add insult to injury by forcing earth to surrender after they had ignored their pleas for who knows how long, so they were just like "whoops our bad, we actually got the wrong address, we give up"
I think humans did not question why Mimbari surrender because they were just happy to... well be alive. And after they thought about the question Mimbari were just silence because thing done too long ago.
@@manuelaparcedo417 LMAO...."whoops our bad, we actually got the wrong address, we give up"
my guess is the first year or two after the war a lot of humans just assumed that was what they sent, but the translator f'd it up
after that they never got a real answer when asked why, because the Minbari never tell the whole truth
They didn't really surrender. They didn't give up their ships and became prisoners of war. They stopped shooting, said we surrender and went away. Surrender seems to mean something different to Minbari.
This show is great. I got to rewatch it sometime soon!
For all the prayers you give this show for being so well thought out and executed I can’t help but think that a few of the major plot movers were rather clumsily conceived.
very powerful seen with the earth president speech.
Oh as to why Mars would be bipassed. The longer they spent at Mars, the more Humans could escape from Earth and flee to space. The same way the humans fought at the line to slow down down the Minbari. The Minbari didn't stop to fight at Mars to not get slowed down.
I think most Human's tried to not think about "Why" and were just relieved.
The warrior caste didn’t take part in the Shadow war. It was the worker and religious caste that built and operated the White Star fleet.
It wasnt just Delenn who decided on the Holy War. She casted thr deciding vote, but others have also casted their vote. They decided that it was a Holy War.
The Holy War wasn't the fault of a naive Delen, it was the human's misunderstanding of an initial cultural salute by the Minbari. Dukat was their leader, he came in peace. Like our current handshake stemming from a gesture to show we have no weapon in hand, the Minbari open their gunports to show they come in peace. The human commander mistook this and shot first, killing Dukat. If any human leader on Earth approached another at a peaceful meeting and was immediately fired upon and killed you can bet there would be an all out war between the two.
Excellent video Lore i dearly love B5 it was some oc the best writing and acting in Syfy history. You really captured the essence of the series and especially the battle of the line.
One way to look at the "Holy War" thing is to think about how different an alien psyche can be to human. Different cultures do tend to have different understanding to words. To Minbari most things in life were sacred (and thus holy), even woohoo (good job Sheridan for ruining that).
Additionally the "Holy" part of their war is something that it was due to humans sneaky attack to a convoy of Minbari ships that hailed them with their biggest sign of respect: Gun ports open. Also Dhukat being the leader of Minbari and moreso their spiritual compass, having him killed basically turned the fanaticism of the Minbari all the way to 11, essentially declaring Holy War.
PS: Every time I see battle scenes from In the Beginning, I cry...
In the Beginning depict Duhkat dying in Delenn's arms, at which point she screams "He was the best of us. Kill them. Kill them all. No mercy." The minion then runs off to tell the Grey Council to start the Holy War. This seems very odd because she was with Duhkat when he ordered the gun ports closed. It's even more odd because the Soul Hunter that came for Delenn's soul, a little early on the station, stated that a large number of Soul Hunters had gone to save Duhkat's soul and that the Minbari made a wall of dead to prevent them.
It's a puzzle to me as to why the Minbari would go after the humans for making a mistake instead of the Soul Hunters who had tried to stop Duhkat's soul being reborn.
It is stated quite clearly how long Sinclair was held. In one of the Season 1 episodes, he was missing for 48 hours. (I think. It's been a while)
He was not found for some time after the battle however, so we don't know how long it was after the surrendered that the let Sinclair go.
Have to admit, I was really waiting for this episode.
B5 was the most wonderful show!!
I think it was a holy war bcos the religious caste probably voted 3 - 0 in favour while the worker and warrior castes got 2 yes votes between them.
There are many occasions in the series when the warrior caste put responsibility for the war on the religious caste.
This created resentment bcos the religious caste started the war, the warriors died in it, then the religious caste surrendered without explanation.
They used the phrase "unconditional surrender" for the Minbari cease fire. But in fact nothing like that could have taken place. In an unconditional surrender you at least take control of the enemies ships and disarm them. No human ever laid a hand on a Minbari control stick or took any Minbari as captive. Remember how pissed those Minbari soldiers were about the loss of the Black Star? Their one and only loss! If they had to surrender their ships to human scum we would never hear the end of it!
I love the Firefly reference at 5:05
Some of the Humans knew what the Minbari believed even if they didn't share that belief. It also wasn't a classic surrender, the Minbari did not yield their ships or weapons, nor did they cede worlds, and the only reparation that was made was their contribution to the Babylon Project.
The male Minbari by the way - is ZAEED - Robin Sachs. And this time he wasn't the only one who made it out alive.
Babylon 5 is an interesting deviance where idealistic cliches like winning solely through the "greatness that is human spirit/determination" doesn't work. Humanity was at the eve of extinction. They not only got their asses kicked, but held down and curb stomped for the entire sector to see. They survived not because of some plot point where humanity can pat themselves on the back over how special they are, but because an alien race had a religious schism over the "specialness" of a humans soul and they tell no one. Humanity in Babylon 5 is insular and mildly xenophobic because they had the idealism publicly beaten out of them and were forced to eat a lot of humble pie after feeling high and mighty post-Dilgar war. A interesting change of pace compared to most sci-fi's where most author's are busy pleasuring the audience over how special and thus superior humans are.
The Babylon project never really failed. It may not have created the peace that it was intended for. It did however point the way. With that is victory enough.
So the actress playing the president played Capt. Rachel Garrett of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701C. Of Star Trek.
Sorry but you are wrong. As the Enterprise enters the space dock and they all see the Excelsior Sulu remarks that it has Trans Warp drive. That is when Scott compares it to his grandmother...
Since Sinclair is Vallen, the religious caste is in effect saving themselves......
Boom
So basically it's Human DNA, not 'souls'.
Human DNA can trigger the 'most holy relics' and as the DNA is bred out, the effect lessens. Get some pure Human DNA and phwoom, the relics go nuts.
Antman would be proud, it's a literal time heist with a DNA switcheroo long game.
And the guards (Vorlons) were in on it too XD
The 3 Minbari relics were all parts of Sinclair's comms link which lit up because comms links were encoded to the DNA of the person they were issued to, so not Human DNA but Sinclair's DNA. The 3 relics were used to identify the children of Valen, ie the descendants of Commander Sinclair.
The president and a few others in the human government did know the real reason why the manbari surrendered. But the general population believed the manbari stopped because the humans put up a tough fight at the battle of the line that it would cost too much for them to invade earth, plus they were moved somehow, so they stopped fighting.
It was the turning of the wheel of time...
The Vorlons knew what had to happen in order for Babylon 4 to become a base in the previous Shadow War. They were on board with Sinclair/Valen and remembered the conflict. Had they interfered, they would have fractured the timeline and lost to the Shadows.
Immortality crossed with time travel is a curse when you know what happened but not what will happen next time.
Additional info! To help flesh in!
-The Earth-Minbari war is holy to the Minbari because Dukat is the leader of the Grey Council, aka, Velen's stand in. He warms St. Peter's throne, so if aliens just HAPPENED to kill the pope, it's kind of the same. This is also kind of why the only thing that can be more important to them than substitute-Velen is actual-Velen.
-As to the EA's perception of the Line, it seems to generally be accepted by the public, even a lot of big wigs, that the hail-mary play succeeded, either by sheer guts or brilliant tactics. Sinclair has a conversation with his girlfriend where he talks about the surrender, and she emphatically says "Because of the Line!" and Sinclair brushes it off callously. The veterans seem to be the only people who understand how abnormal it is. Even in the episode, "And the Sky Full of Stars", the presumption of Shady British Dude is that Sinclair was either brainwashed or a willing traitor, because the Minbari knew they couldn't break the Line. They needed a double agent in Earth Force ranks, because that would be the "easier" path to subjugating the EA. And the implication is that he's in Clark's faction of xenophobic nationalists, who are really well connected even at this point of the series.
-As to the Vorlons, they seem to enjoy themselves some Great Man History, and is plausible that it was purely to create Velen. Cynically, the Vorlons exude influence over the Minbari through Velen's teachings, and not understanding perhaps how the next war would go, saw his creation as a more important investment in their galactic order than a few hundred thousand deaths of their "children".
Good job as always =3
7:25.you can see that one minbari cruiser got clipped there and sinclair in the orginial canon took out a fighter.
They stopped because he was Valen..Nothing else would stop them...
One flaw in this whole battle of the line and earth force not being able to hurt the Minbari is that..........if human weapons were not a threat to Minbari ships........how did earth force kill Dukat and damage Minbari ships at first contact? Early on in the show human weapons could do damage....they were just seriously out classed and out gunned. As Londo put it nobody messes with the Minbari since they were crazy and dedicate a full third of their population to war, plus they had advanced tech. Later on JMS seems to have jazzed things up so the battle looked even more hopeless.
Human plasma wapons were a real danger to Menbari ships but they had to be aimed by hand due to the Menbari stealth systems. So the only way to hit something was to get close to it. Thats what you saw at first contact but the Menbari ussely kept ther distance. They even had a name for the tactic. (Hammer of somebody..... I don't remember it after 20 years)
Minbari stealth tech (or better described, ECM) made it nigh impossible for human ships to get their weapons on target (it's actually an important point in the opening episode of season 2). While greeting someone (even making sure they see your "gun ports open salute") you wouldn't make it hard for them to look at you.
I believe the reason the minbari surrendered will always vary from human to human. Man to woman. Adult to child. Old to young. Some would believe that it was the bravery of those on the line. Others would believe it was a higher power. Others would believe someone made a deal. And probably many believeed they were tired of the war, the slaughter. As far as in universe, only a few ever find out and even fewer believe. As for me. If I didn't know I'd believe that the minbari surrendered due to death and blood on their hands combined with the desperate bravery of those on the line showed them that maybe this war wasnt what it was thought to be, it was just a wholesale slaughter of a race, of my race. They couldn't take it anymore..
It was a "holy war" because the humans - in their ignorance of Minbari customs and the commander of the Earthforce fleet being a paranoid ass that shouldn't have been in a first contact situation anyway - attacked the Minbari flagship carrying the Grey Council and killed their religious leader, Dukhat. Thus did Delenn (a member of the religious caste and protege of Dukhat) make said "idiotic decision" (although to be fair it was less idiotic and more emotional, which she acknowledges after the very first counterattack against the humans) to retaliate.
FREEDOM FOR MARS !
Wouldn't had been better to take all those ships, fill them with as many people as possible and run away from earth and the minbari?
Given their overwhelming tactical and strategic advantage by the time of the Battle of the Line, the Mimbari surrender makes no sense. OK, they discovered a reason to end the war, fine and dandy. By the time they made that decision though, something like 90% of the Earth fleet had been destroyed, to negligible casualties for the Mimbari, and that was just that one battle. They could have simply ceased fire and declared they were withdrawing. Also, the surrender was clearly not unconditional, since the Mimbari warriors did not become prisoners, nor were they disarmed, nor did they have to turn over their fleet to earth. There are just a number of details that have still never been explained. What would seem to have happened is that the Mimbari ceased fire, and offered surrender, which was then negotiated from a position of extreme strength, and they withdrew with all their forces intact. Closer to what I described above, except for the technicality of the word surrender being in the agreement.
I love Babylon 5. Watched it many times. But one thing I never understood was how an advanced race like the Minbari would get close to committing genocide on humanity.
For such an advance species apparently the Minbari did not have DNA scanners of some kind.
Okay so where were our nukes? We know the Minbari, had to come to Earth... They were going after our ships. Fall back, Fall back KABOOOM...
Because in open space with nowhere to hide them they would be detected and destroyed before getting anywhere close enough.
Let's say if the Earth Alliance discovered the technology to lock onto Minbari warships. Would the EA fight the war to a standstill or would they show the Minbari about as much mercy as the Minbari have shown the EA.
I wish they would have been able to do the Telepath Wars like they wanted. I still feel that universe had unfinished business.
Humans bored the Minbari into submission.
Why the Vorlon did Little to nothing? Had they stopped the war or changed Future History (Damn Temporal Mechanics) then B4 would not have been built and used in the Previous Shadow war and therefor changing all of Minbari History..
I don't get why it was a surrender. Why not call it a victory or a draw?
Because it tied in with their principle, culture and religion. They have made a mistake that shouldn't have been done as they see humans as one of their own. Like it was mentioned, they don't kill one of their own (at least not directly) even in the most gravest conflict. Surrendering is a highest gesture of both apology and penance.
Babylon 5 is awesome
What do we get from this video that we don't get from watching the Babylon 5 movie "In the beginning" and series in general?
Lots of big issues with time travel as usual. Essentially Valyn was created thanks to the Minbari/Human war and thanks to what Valyn himself left. I mean if Valyn hadn't left the triliminary to identify him so that the Minibari would surrender so that Valyn could come to be Valyn, then Valyn couldn't have been Valyn to leave the triliminary. It's all very circular and doesn't make any sense how this loop could come to be in the first place. I hate time travel in stories, so much BS. But Babylon 5 was a good series.
I dont know..but quite a few people seem to get something.
The truth points to itself
i find it confusing how you state that the minbari reaction was weird, while apperently having watched the show. their reaction to dukats death was very much a human reaction. we have history showing that very outrage and blood lust. and of course the vorlons had their hand in it, you forget that they are capable of trans-dimensional travel and like had a for of time travel as did the shadows when they tried to destroy bab 4.
I just realized it was Valen's soul because Sinclair WAS Valen, or more specifically, would become Valen.
You are the one who was (Sinclair)
You are the one who is (Delenn)
You are the one who will be (Sheridan)
Sinclaiir is Valen, Delenn is his great great grand-daughter representing the present story, and Sheridan will be the one to continue his line via Delenn for the future, eventually become Vorlon-like humans in Deconstruction of the Falling Stars.
A paradox of sorts.
Kind of like Neanderthal DNA in those of European ancestry.
B5 also had some of the BEST speeches in a TV show that I have heard. (Even Doctor Who could take some notes)
The Delenn “if you value your lives be somewhere else!” speech (Severed Dreams episode) was quite possibly THE best speech in any sci-fi show ever. In my opinion of course.
The Promethean I’d argue G’Kar’s speech in the season 2 episode “ The long Twilight Struggle “ is the best, but that one was phenomenal.
@@pollall2793 I’ll throw in “Who am I?”.
There's an answer to what the Humans thought the reason was in earlier dialogue.
"How many Mimbari does it take to change a light bulb?"
"None, they stop before the job is finished and won't tell you why."
That is, Humans had no idea to the point of making jokes about it.
They surrendered because Delenn's vote was reversed... The vote that started the war. She told the Vorlon's that the Gray Council was tired of the war, and that they only needed a good reason to quit. Capturing Sinclair, which the Vorlon's helped Delenn in doing, was the "good reason" she needed. Good thinking on her feet, tracing the vectors to a conclusion the rest of the Gray Council would support.
Just excellent writing from JMS!
So the "humans have minbari souls" thing was only a pretext in the end.
@@refulgent_fanta I don't think Delenn knew it at the time. I don't remember watching anything about the Vorlons helping to capture Sinclair's ship from space, either.
@@Thalanox the truth points to itself.
"The answer points to itself." - Kosh
@John Chlebek
That and the fact the triluminaries were parts of Sinclair's genetically encoded comms link.
05:42 "They weren't trying to win. They were trying to stall." Beautifully put. That observation is so powerful. Reminds me of Londo's lines of fighting for every inch of space, and of hoping to die with half as much dignity - on the night he chose to die.
Which of course that was his day to die.
Do not forget they (the Vorlons and the old Minbari) needed also Babylon 4! and this station would not by build without the Baylon project.
True
I hope, if there is going to be another series from B5 franchise, it would be about B4 during the 1st Shadow War.
Then we'll get to see how Sinclair spread his love of Swedish Meatball to other species. Also how the Force of Light won against the Shadow.
There was a nicely detailed set of chapters on that in the fanfiction, Dark Mirror, which is one of the best B5 fanfics. Most of it revolves around what would happen if Earth fell at the Line, but Sinclair still needed to become Valen, and we see him in that era.
But niether the Vorlons or the Mimbari knew the humans built the B4 station until later. Sinclair was the only human onbourd and he was Valaen by that point.
Sinclair would meet Kosh as Valean in the first Shadow War. He would tell Kosh the importance of the Earth Minbari War happening so B4 would be created.
"To lose this war means more than defeat. To surrender is to never go home. All of us must rise to the call, above and beyond!" - Col. TC McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
I miss that show
I think the mistake is in thinking the Vorlons are invested in the races or even the wins and loses of each millenial war.
In many ways, at this point, the Vorlons and Shadows, are fighting an idealogical war, by proxy. They might win or lose one time around but when they do, they either take the lead and get to put their ideas into action through influence or they have to take a step back.
It's incapsulated in the Vorlons aloofness and in the Shadows secretiveness. They are content to pull the strings from behind the scenes, seeking to humiliate one another, but never getting directly involved *against* one another. Until the later stages of the Shadow war.
They each took greater liberties as time passed and each war took place, with the Vorlons altering species to be telepathic and perhaps (pure conjecture here) the Shadows making use of their own ships in battle and seeding alien worlds with said ships, were both escalations between each conflict.
I think the Vorlons would have been pissed and disgruntled had the Minbari wiped the Humans and that led to the side of Order losing the ultimate war, but would feel comfortable knowing, the Shadows would never really directly threaten them. That wasn't how the game was played.
For the Vorlons, they were above it all and for the Shadows, every defeat made them stronger. I think it was only in the Shadow war, that each side had reached a point, as the younger races started to become more independant of the whole affair, where each looked to the other as being the prime factor for this shift in influence and took the to more direct attacks, to terrify the younger races back into line.
Most Vorlons didn't care about the bit players, they cared about being right and the Shadows were the same.
The are the First One's version of the Narn and Centauri.
Very underrated comment...
Kosh cared in his own way, if you believe Lorien, then he's one of the few Vorlons who actually got it that their interference was inherently wrong. He just had no way of avoiding it without letting Shadows win. Kosh is sort of like Londo and G'kar combined, a tragic character who knew the right thing to do and couldn't until the end
@@time391 I would say that from Lyta's viewpoint the original Kosh cared about people. Maybe that's how Sheridan got through to him. "How many more dead before your satisfied?" We see his emotions in the dream sequence to Sheridan as his father. But one wonders whether he thought Sheridan going to Za'ha'dum would result in him meeting Lorien and breaking the cycle? I like to think so, but he could have just had prescience to know that Sheridan likely goes ("If you go..."), but without him along he will die.
"You said if I go to Za'ha'dum I'll die."
"Yes, now."
Too bad Sheridan didn't jump immediately when he said "Jump. Jump, now!" or he might have lived a longer life.
@@sandal_thong8631 True, I do wonder if Kosh also had a plan for Lyta to take out Talia during the inevitable Telepath war. The Vorlons were many things and one of their worst qualities was leaving weapons lying around for lesser races. Kosh at least left a nuclear weapon level telepath to take on another equivalent telepath in Talia Winters. He protected humanity from our own self-destructive impulses with that act.
@@time391 If the actress playing Talia stayed then she would have done most of the things that Lyta did. Since she left, Lyta became modified by the Vorlons to be the super-powerful telepath. Probably Marcus wouldn't have been a major character with Talia remaining Ivanova's interest.
And if Lyta (or an alternate) hadn't triggered the destruction of Za'ha'dum then the Drakh would have had 20 years or more to discover Shadow technology that had previously been denied them by their masters. So better they came out when they were beatable. Too bad they couldn't find a path of their own that wasn't based on revenge for those who fought their former masters.
Dont forget that Dukhat was the Minbari's Chosen One. They believed with heart and soul, that Dukhat was the pinnacle of Minbari evolution, the greatest one since Valen, possibly even surpassing him in importance, intellect and everything else. He was the the one, they projected their hopes upon, and Humans killed him. That is why they readily went into a Holy War-Frenzy.
There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion.
The Vorlons knew what would happen up to the construction of B5 because they where there when B4 traveled back. One of the Kosh's (the 2nd one) was actually there when Sinclair transformed into Valen. Thus they had no need to do more than standing there and look cryptic.
The earth president did know the real reason why they surrendered. That's why he personally authorized the babylon project.
Surpassing?
"There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion."
Given the reaction that they had to the two ships they lost (one starting the war and the Blackstar), it's possible it was seen as a matter of 'they couldn't win the battle of the line without significant casualties, and backed off'.
Alternatively it might be combined with the concept that though the Minbari hadn't really communicated, they had only attacked military installations. Perhaps they simply believed they had made their point?
Exactly. In a culture deeply divided along caste lines, Dukhat was the only one everybody respected. He united his species in Life, and he united them in Death, for awhile anyway...
100%
The vorlons position is hardly a mystery. The whole thing is a predestination paradox and the 2 vorlons who were on dukats ship, kosh and ulkesh, were both present when sinclair/valen made contact with the minbari after babylon 4 was sent back in time. They knew *exactly* what happened. That does not mean the vorlons did nothing. It is strongly hinted at that dukat was searching for the humans on the behest of the vorlons. They were making sure the paradox happens.
That is one of the thoughts I had on the situation. Another I had was that Phalen might have left more than two letters. Imagine being told by one of you historical greatest that you should look into this alien race called humans and while it will lead to a great sorrow for both sides it will lead to a great alliance between the two.
I'm not certain if the predestination paradox was originally intended as that episode was because the actual actor did not want to continue with the series.
Londo said it best The humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race
would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater
strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my
life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep, they would
pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones and then throw
themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself.
Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable
could help but be moved to tears by their courage…their stubborn
nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out
of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were
magnificent. I only hope, that when it is my time, I may die with half
as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for
two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end…they ran out of
time.
One could argue that at the Battle of the Line, it was both desperation and courage that motivated them. Humans were so desperate for more time that a few brave soles sacrificed themselves for even just a minute or 2 knowing it could save some more lives. Its interesting how the Minbari never made that distinction when they've been almost equally backed to a corner in their involvement in their war with the Shadows.
It takes courage beyond measure to go into combat at any time--but especially when you KNOW that survival simply isn't an option. 20,000 Earth Force troopers fought in The Battle Of The Line...only 200 survived. 99% casualties.
Kervin H same here. How could you not?
The humans did surrender though. Rewatch the earth presidents speech from in the beginning. But the minbari just said nah, we'll genocide ya all!!
We had our own battles of the line in our history too.
I still cry whenever I hear that monologue. It's so beautiful and tragic and back to beautiful.
Souls exist in B5, hence the Soul Hunters
We know they grab something..its ne e clear if it's the soul or just the conciousness or something else.. but that's what I'm talking about..something to resonate for everyone
@@LoreReloaded Yes, souls exist but the nature of said soul remains vague
Again, not convinced with what's presented but we can agree to disagree.. it's not a biggie
Probably the psychic presence that everyone( regardless of wether they are a telepath or not) has.
Well, we know Demons exist in B5... So that's a thing...
From what I understand from reading things JMS has stated over the years only two Vorlons, Kosh and Ulkesh knew the full story of Sinclair/Valen. That some time toward the end of last Shadow War Valen had sought out these two Vorlons and told them everything. That’s the reason those two particular Vorlons where on Duhkat’s cruiser when the story began. The other Vorlons had become unconcerned about the conflicts of the Younger Races. Not really caring anymore about being teachers or guides to the younger races anymore.
JMS had or has a twitter account and does answer B5 questions from time to time on there
Plus many of his responses were listed on the Lurker's Guide, midwinter.com.
Chris sonofPear Nice to see the site still exists! :)
I'd guess a lot of people would turn to a higher power after that, because it's as close to a miracle as anyone would have ever seen.
Babylon 5 was a great series.
Joe Meow You would love. The Expanse too then. They are both in my favourites of all-time .
At 4:18, I always loved the bit where some star fury pilots move towards their fighters the second they hear "But for every 10 minutes we can delay the military advance, several hundred more civilians may have a chance to escape to neutral territory". No hesitation!
The true meaning of "service" and "sacrifice" They all know they have no chance....but they suit up and go anyways.
Something our current 'dear leader' could learn from. Couldn't resist.
Extinction is not an option
I'm sorry but if you point a gun at someone and use invasive sensors you can't get particularly angry is someone shoots at you
What I don't understand is why Surrender. Why not just a cease fire, or accept the Human Surrender. If I had to guess, I would say a Mimbari Surrender connotes something deeper as if they were not only ashamed of letting it go that far, but also that they needed to be punished in some way. The fact that they did surrender would mean that in one way or another Earth could dictate terms. The Mimbari or the show for that matter didn't say unconditional Surrender for the Mimbari so there really isn't enough info to go on as to how people really felt. IMO
I know, yeah. If EVER a conflict allowed for a CONDITIONAL surrender, it was this one. Claiming it as UNCONDITIONAL raises many questions.
Also, they *weren't* punished in any significant way AFAIK, and I find it difficult to believe the humans wouldn't want *some* retaliation.
@BaseDeltaZero A first season episode with Sinclair had him acting as a mole for a group of people that were angered by the Surrender and he said the victory 'tasted like ash'. Remember? The was a glimpse at the people that wanted retribution or retaliation. The show didn't go into it as much as it could have though.
And as far as we know the Humans were in no position to make the Minbari pay reparations or anything. Or maybe they weren't willing to? I guess a condition Earth did have was the Minbari's involvement in the Babylon Project. But yeah, the surrender I guess shows that the Minbari still didn't understand the Humans and did not think that their action would raise a lot of questions on Earth.
@Doug C
Good point, they could have called a ceasefire.
I can think of a few dubious reasons why they didn't.
1. It was the quickest way to stop both sides fighting.
2. The concern that the humans might not believe a ceasefire, surrender is more definitive.
3. The Mimbari or the Warrior caste might not have a concept of a ceasefire.
4. It worked as a plot device the foster a big galaxy wide mystery 😊.
I remember there was a comic between season 1 and 2 that showed that the earth government was informed about the souls. President Clarke explained to Sinclair that he didn’t believe it, but the mimbari did and that was good enough for him.
Several hundred per ten minutes... so bleak.
At times I wonder if writers realise the actual scales involved in cases like this.
A colony destroyed, thousands lost...
Wait, what? Thousands? An entire planetary population, thousands, not tens of thousands, how about tens of millions?
If we took one eighth of the earth's total population (about one billion) and divided it equally across one hundred worlds (colonies), each should have a population of around ten million...
I understand there must be a reason why death tolls are always so wonky, but you find this everywhere in sci-fi.
I think the best example is the "brutal" fifty year occupation of Bajor, and while any death is a tragedy, compared to real life atrocities here on earth... it doesn't even stack up against the death rate of us deaths to car crashes, and chairman mao's great spring forward claimed far more lives giving the unintended side effect of making the Cardassians look much better than they are claimed to be which, in turn, makes it look like negative propaganda from the Federation and Bajorans when clearly it's not meant to be.
In closing, I really wish writers of sci-fi, fantasy, and well... just in general, would close this loop and at least attempt to use realistic numbers, but I get that they don't, and likely never will.
Completely agree. I always wondered about the lack of realistic casualties being portrayed on this show and others. Hundreds and thousands only. I think i read somewhere that the earth minbari war only furnished 250,000 human deaths. I just don’t think that’s a high enough number if your talking about a total war of annihilation.
The problems is is that hundreds and thousands are within the human scope of compassion.
when a thousand people die it's a tragedy.
when a billion die it's a statistic.
Right?
We're annihilating the billions, BILLIONS, of people within your species, one hundred at a time...
Even in grand scale stuff like mass effect, a couple billion die across all species leaving potentially hundreds of billions alive...
I get that when you start talking really big numbers they start to lose their impact, but seriously?
Low balling like this only makes everything look much less dire, or... worst case... that the writers don't actually understand what they are writing, or at least that they didn't bother to consider scale when writing.
I mean... my God... I could actually see them saying, "They annihilated earth, and killed everyone... hundreds of thousands died..." then the exchange;
"Oh, so we managed to evacuate most of the civilians!"
"No, they killed everyone. It was a massacre!"
"But... you only said hundreds of thousands..."
"It was GENOCIDE! They killed hundreds, maybe thousands..."
"Ok, clearly you're in shock and are completely distraught. You should talk to a ships counselor, and... is there someone else in charge I could talk to?"
*rocking back and forth in the fetal position, eyes wide with shock, face twisted into a rictus mask of horror* "hundreds, thousands, all those children... so many... hundreds, thousands, all dead... all dead, dead, dead..." *now just repeating words, as though in a trance* "hundreds, thousands, dead, all dead, genocide, hundreds, thousands..."
***
"What's that ones story?"
"Oh... poor thing... only survivor at a Hollywood writers seminar... keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again..."
"Ok... so why the admirals jacket? How'd that happen?"
"Well, you know, that's what one does when somebody's in shock, so I just gave 'em my coat and... well, poor thing... anyways, got something to report soldier?"
"Do I ever!"
"Well, millions are dying, no need for suspense, out with it."
"Total surrender."
"Yes, we've been broadcasting that for days now..."
"No, they're surrendering to us!"
"Oh, good. Wait... what? This had better not be a joke troop..."
"No Admiral, I guess they just got tired of beating on the smallest kid in class."
"Ahhh... so their fists do get tired... Launch an immediate counter offensive, quick, while we have the advantage!"
"What advantage?"
"None. I just wanted to say something like that before this all ended... you can only take so much of an ass kicking you know..."
"Yeah... I got you... so, any *real* estimates on the death toll admiral?"
"Yes..." *in a solemn tone* "nearly a billion dead, good thing they surrendered now, or the count would be eight times that..."
***
Yeah... that's how I'd imagine an exchange really going down in this situation...
Many of those colonies would maybe have marginal teraformed or pressurized domes, I guess. But this war did always seem to have a pretty small scale of deaths. In contrast, the Covenant War in Halo had about 30 billion human deaths in total, after 28 years.
The Minbari specifically went after military targets first, with the intention of coming back for the civilian populations later to begin systematic genocide. It might be that 'thousands' were lost in each *engagement*, as well.
Who had the best story arc in b5? for me its a toss up between londo and g'kar
Agreed
Marcus and Franklin the best (the scene of them going to Mars is epic)
I think Londo and G'Kar together is the best the show had to offer, not just in writing but in the perfect acting of Peter Jurassic and Andreas Katsulas.
Londo, pretty much hands down. Also G'Kar and Vir were also integral to it.
I loved the elevator scene between G'Kar and Londo
Londo "Goto Babyion 5 they said, it'll be an easy position, they said." Londo sighs "I hate my life"
G'Kar "So do I."
Londo "SHUT UP!"
lol!
About what the humans knew... at one point, there was a BABYLON 5 comic book series. There was also a series of B5 novels, one of which was called TO DREAM IN THE CITY OF SORROWS. Both the comics and this novel in particular have been confirmed as canon by no less that Joe Straczynski himself.
Taken together, the two sources explicitly state that the truth behind what happened was revealed to the highest echelons of EarthGov, but was immediately made a highly classified state secret. The Minbari told the truth to the new President Clark, specifically so that Commander Sinclair would be made into Sarah's first ambassador to Minbar. (Naturally, Clark and his cronies doubted, but they wanted Sinclair out of the way due to events surrounding the recent death (assassination) of President Santiago.
The whole truth was only known to a very select group of Minbari, with EarthGov secretly only knowing part of the story. As for everyone else, human or Minbari, they were kept in the dark.
Which Sarah and what does she have to do with it? ;)
So that's why Mars is so pissed throughout the duration of the show, no one thinks they're important enough to attack.
Vorlons needed E-M war, because they needed Babylon 4 and Valen, no E-M War no Babylon 4, and Sinclar is not found by the boneys
The Grey Council's lives were sacrosanct. I know Lore does not like these comparisons, but it was the same as the Tribunes in Rome. ( Mark Antony's job the Guy who married Cleopatra, not Jennifer Lopez. ) So killing one, is a religious act of sacrilege. Or Imagine some one killing a Medieval pope, Basically by definition the MInbari, do not separate temple and state
That specific person killed was also seen as the greatest living Minbari, and the spiritual successor to Valen. So, it would be like if everyone was 1 religion first, and then they killed them.
The battle of the line speech was epic.
Indeed, Joe writes great speeches: listen to any of G'Kar's many speeches.
"The war we fight is not against powers and principalities it is against the darkness of a soul that has lost it's way...No one knows the shape of that future...we know only that it is always born in pain."
I would add 2 words
and blood.
Yeah, I think the Vorlons didn't interfere A: out of their general dismissiveness towards overt interference with younger races (this would change obviously) and B: predestination paradox; they ultimately had no choice in the matter; what will have had to have had happened would need to have happened as it would have had happened.
There’s a very good reason they would’ve bypassed Mars. Given the orbits of earth and Mars it is highly unlikely that they would be lined up at the time of the invasion. So they would have to pick one and then the other, and they decided to start with earth.
The temporal mechanics are painful. Without the war, there would be no Babylon project. Without the project, no Babylon 4 would be manufactured, nor would there be cause for Valen to become manifest. Without B4 the Vorlon/Mimbari coalition 1000 years earlier would not win the war. Without Valen Minbari culture would not be transformed. And the humans would never survive first contact with a militant, old-school Minbar.
It was a holy war because Dukhat was their religious leader.
The humans basically killed the Mimbari spacepope.
Like...
Duh?
among the reasons why holy wars start, this is among the biggest. That, and the purging of the unbelievers.
@@dumaskhan So, this is the first video by Lore Reloaded I'd ever watched. Also, the last!
Like, your job, as a lore channel, is to GET BASIC FUCKING FACTS RIGHT! Like, I'd be fine if it was some minor thing, but there were multiple episodes and a goddamn MOVIE about this! It's a foundational premise of the entire Babylon 5 TV show! What the hell!?
I think at some point there was an implication that the Clarke administration pushed the idea that Earth won the Earth-Mimbari War - an ISN interviewer responds to a line from Sheridan about how they'd lost the war, and would be doomed if it repeated with the question "But... we won the war, didn't we?" I headcannon this as a big movement of historical revisionism: humans can't imagine why the Mimbari would have surrendered, and so they assume that they must have run out of steam, and that the Battle of the Line destroyed their will to fight.
Everything repeats, I keep coming back because I enjoy the show.
Had the minbari destroyed earth,babylon 4 wouldnt have been created and the minbari would now be extinct or would be in 15 to 20 yrs.with the shadows being 3 times as powerful.their attempts at creating an alliance wouldve failed also as every race would likely have joined up with the shadows to defeat the minbari.
She made an emotional decision, not an idiotic one. an irrational decision also is not the same as idiotic. Besides Dhukath was the pinnacle of minvari breeding. He unified two castes and led like the greatest leader after Valen. HE was both religious and military leader. In olden days that automatically meant "holy". And when two castes of three go crazy, the entire society goes. Just remember the damage done by alliance policies and a few idiotic politicans in july 1914. A war, that by all accounts should have been prevented took tens of millions of lives in battles whose only reason was to kill as many ofr as little as posible. Sounds familiar? Can you compare that to the minbari holy war?
I’ve always linked those examples, remember the Austro-Hungarians didn’t even like the Archduke
It was idiotic.
*head to desk* It's a holy war because their religious leader was killed. Sometimes you can be a little dense about stuff man. :P
Except..I dont see it like that and clearly delineate why thats silly
@@LoreReloaded in most herth holy wars it's only holy if it has a end to it for them was the death and retribution of there leader and for humans was the sorvival of the especies also the doctor did not turn the notes course he new they had human DNA in them
Sinclair's lover, presented in the movie The Gathering, makes the statement that implies her belief is the Minbari surrendered because those of the line defeated them
The Minbari realized the humans had a superior gelato machine.
reminds me of so many plots of Babylon 5 and no sci fi show ever came even close to Babylon 5.
How can you pass judgement on a race that has different perpectives & values than ours?