This eastern monk/nun flair does not fit into the HQ that I imagine, but that is the great with such a modular aspect. People who like it can include it, people like me can leave it out. It's optional, and every option is an enrichment, even if you do not use it.
I don't even know what Hero Quest is UA-cam just showed me this video. At the end of the day the "Monk" archetype was included because it was cool. It has always been cool. It will always be cool at least in a fantasy setting.
The answer is simple: Do YOU want monks inYOUR HeroQuest campaign? If so, they belong. If not, oh well, maybe the next release will be more up your alley. Personally, I love the monk. A character straight from Grand Cathay.
What HQ really needs are more archtypes from around the world (samurai, wu-jen, hoogan priest(ess) (yall know where Im going with this). More characters way more variety. What HQ really needs is a magazine like Dragon for official rules and such.
I agree with preferring western fantasy. I'm good with the monk and I'll definitely give it a try, but I'd like to see something like a psionic/mindblade type class. Attack the minds of enemies and make use of those mind points!
@@AshQuest ahhhhhh! Either way I kiiiiinda hope they don't add much more in the way of classes. Don't need too many that makes balancing impossible. MOAR quests!
It is good to think of the world building this inspires. I have the remixed Japanese base game and now we have a new at to include this type of character. The best thing about world building is seeing different cultures look at all the eastern tropes in Conan now I will be able to link my adventures with the actions taken by Grimdead
yeah HeroQuest fans generally are very protective of the IP we love, even though there is always "you can make it your own" in the back of everyone's mind and at the front of Avalon Hill's lips. when it's homebrew the sky is the limit. when it's official, people are very cautious when it comes to anything new or changed from what they remember having. it's just something the company has to keep in mind whenever they do stuff so that's the balancing act they perform
Ill be honest. I love the efforts put into it, even if there are elements of RotDM that I don't *prefer*. Just like there are things I wish were different in the base game system itself (mind point usage comes to mind first). The short answer is though, of course it's fine. The campaign was designed through a lens that not everyone collectively is going to share. I don't get "ninja" but you do, and that illustrates a small bit of the spectrum of perspective. But just like everything else, it won't likely absolutely answer everyone's perception of a perfect next, new campaign...because I don't think there is a campaign that could without getting some flak from someone, somewhere. I understand what you mean though. Disguises, smoke bombs...it seems like cowardice and tomfoolery for the likes of my barb and dwarf. With this release and qith the monk, we seem to edge closer to an experience that wants a roleplay system. Rotdm and whether it strays too far from the HQ formula so many have observed is a future video. :)
A Rogue could fill a Ninja-like role. Nimble and skirmisher, skilled with small blades like daggers and shortswords. They don't use armor, so disguises are in their reach. The smoke bombs and caltrops are also a nice addition to them.
Now that we know all of the skills and attributes of the Monk, have you tried playtesting it yet? I plan to do so once I finish ToTK. I have a feeling that the fire skills will be so incredibly rarely unlocked, since they will take 4 consecutive turns of combat to get there. That helps balance their power level, but I wonder if the other 3 will be able to keep the Monk relevant the rest of the time. I also really dislike the lack of progression. There is no reason to use most of their allowed weapons (just get a crossbow and attack with that at range, or unarmed in close), and they can't upgrade their defense at all. The character maxes out at 350 gold.
Not all the styles count as actions! Depending on the conditions, the Monk may be able to use the fire style in the third turn...then will need to retreat (and run faster than the monsters, if any are alive) to recover them all. I'm seeing comments on low progression ceiling as well as OP-ness...and honestly the comments there have merit. Perhaps this will be something for AH to refer back to with more named equipment going forward (we may see future expansions with higher priced specialty staff or other weapons they can use). I think this grants some additional validation to the Barbarian and Dwarf in this current ability climate, though!
@@AshQuest correct, some don't count as actions, but you can still only invoke one style per turn. Since you regain ALL styles if no monsters are visible, you would need to invoke one style (and use it) on turn 1, then invoke and use the other 2 styles while maintaining monster visions, and then begin that 4th turn with monster vision to use them. Most combat doesn't last that long, so either a) there are just that many (or strong) monsters, b) combat is being played sub-optimally to allow the Monk to reach turn 4, c) door blocking while keeping the Monk's vision clear, or d) very unlucky rolls! I just can't picture fire being used very often. But again, that's possibly good (they look very powerful!), and will require playtesting to see how often they actually get used. I also hope they do release Monk-specific (or at least implied) gear. I'm not a big fan of your beloved Warlock because of the lack of progression (their weapon literally never upgrades, and they have to fight the wizard for the Cloak). They start out very strong, but I get bored with them easily because of the lack of progression. The Monk seems like an even more extreme version of that. I hope they find ways to add progression (outside of homebrewing XP systems, of course!)
@@danielpurdom9141 "...and they can't upgrade their defense at all" Don't forget the Bracers. They can improve their defense dice from their base 3 to 4 dice, which is better than the Rogue, as he start with 2 and can only use the Bracers to improve it to 3 (on the other hand, Rogues are very good at damage dealing with little to no gold investment).
If we got a "Pirate Quest" fantasy game with nautical monsters, sailors and soldiers, and ships, and it was compatible with "HeroQuest", I would love it.
The fact that the original back cover of the _Return of the Witch Lord_ had the map of _The Old World_ is a clear indication that HeroQuest was set in the Warhammer setting. Add that to the fimir monster and the chaos magic and it's very hard to argue it wasn't set in the Warhammer. It may not be deeply rooted, but the Warhammer references were there to the point that Hasbro had to remove them. And Monks were present in Warhammer 1st Edition - Forces of Fantasy - Volume 1, Men of the Orient (1983). The "Men of the Orient" come from kingdoms like Cathay and Nippon, which are the Warhammer equivalents for China and Japan, respectively. And even outside Warhammer, Monks are represent as playable options multiple times in fantasy games, from the early days of D&D to this day. So if someone says "I don't like Monks and they won't be present in my game", that fine. That's personal preference. But to say that they don't belong to a fantasy game like HeroQuest is false, considering how long monks are out there in fantasy games.
Thank you for the well read comment. :) It is that exact map to which I refer in this very video. The points you make are great, and definitely included among those to which I considered (and to which I responded) when making this video. For me and some others, one included map in a specific edition of one expansion, wasn't an explicit admission of being set in the same universe; that's something I feel has enough weight to stand on its own, and I've said as much here. I dont speak for anyone else but myself, but I don't personally think it's hard to argue either for or against the WH association, nor the acceptability of the presence of monks in anyone's setting. That said, its perfectly reasonable and acceptable for anyone to play it as such. It's your HQ, and the inferred links are there to be interpreted! Removing the IP references didn't break HQ or damage its lore in any way. We still get to enjoy the setting without those few IP bits (which included a form of Chaos magic that wasn't even defined explicitly in WH standards). So we have a new fork; the Avalon Hill Canon. It's a great one that I hope lasts a long time!
@@AshQuest Sure, removing the Warhammer references didn't break the HeroQuest. The thing is that _they were there._ Considering that the original HeroQuest had Fimirs, Chaos Magic and The Map of the Old World in the back cover of the _Return of the Witch Lord,_ how is it possible possible to still argue that it was not set in the Warhammer setting? The Warhammer's fingerprints and DNA were there, to the point that they had to be removed. Not to mention that, even if we completely ignore the Warhammer reference for the Monks since the first year of Warhammer publication, monks are playable options since the early days of D&D (as you mentioned in the video). Oriental heroes are part of a multitude of fantasy settings. People should know the difference between personal preferences and facts. The personal preference may say _"I don't like monks and they don't exist in my games"._ That's totally fine. But arguing that Monks don't belong to the world of HeroQuest is not only refutable for nearly half a century of publication history of several fantasy games (including but not limited to Warhammer), but it also sounds like a sort of delusion where the person thinks he/she know better than the authors who are publishing HeroQuest.
@@AshQuest And one point about the Warlock, mentioned at 23:21. The fact that the Warlock has an agreement with a dark entity doesn't make her less heroic. Spawn and Ghost Rider are examples of well know characters who literally have a pact with the devil, and yet they use their hellish powers for good. And if we look to the D&D Warlock, even those who are from the Pact of the Fiend can still be heroes, as we can see in the subclass description: _"You have made a pact with a fiend from the lower planes of existence, a being whose aims are evil, _*_even if you strive against those aims."_*
Thanks for helping defend my warlock. Very good points, and I like them, even if I understand they won't convince everyone. I'm guilty of bias - I love the illustration and the sculpt for this character, as well as halflings in general, and anti-heroes. Really, the vid is mostly about "Do I agree" being a completely different topic than "Do I get it." We should be able to not agree, but still *understand* why the subjective viewpoints of others are valid. And that includes understanding that a copyright or trademark holder, who creates canon for *an interpretation*, *absolutely* has the potential to go off rails, and be wrong in their decision making. Hasn't happened yet, but they're only nerds like us all the same!
Personally I would argue this ship already sailed when they created the Bard and the Druid. The original game was very low fantasy while this current version seems to be aiming closer to current D&D high fantasy which Monks are almost ubiquitously included in. I'm surprised anyone would balk at a monk but be perfectly OK with having a spell slinging singer. In any case though you're right it really doesn't matter what the official canon setting is, it's your table make the game yours if you don't want monks in the game don't play with the expansion.
I really like the Monk idea. One character I've been thinking about a lot currently is simply a character who tries to use communication and gile to trick and move enemies? Maybe they can use mind points to get enemies to attack each other. Or drop items. Or simply leave a room and shuffle down a hallway. So while the Monk would be all about fast critical strikes. Maybe we could have a charismatic and deceptive bandit? But I'm very excited for the Monk. And my partner loves the female Guardian Knight.
The Female Knight is pretty awesome. 😍 I like your idea about someone with a more mental-focused loadout. Really put the mind points into use! I know a ton of homebrew has been done to facilitate more MP usage. Maybe it's time to analyze them here.
yeah... 30 years of nostalgia (and the fact that many of us didn't know about Warhammer or play D&D when we were playing HeroQuest) can have an effect. D&D has gotten so huge its hard for people to get past it and its influence as if D&D is the end-all, be-all of fantasy tabletop games (it's not, but still that's a widespread perception). I think there's a difference too between "purists" on official HeroQuest releases ("canon" and all that) vs. homebrew that can be based on anything including being a direct ripoff of something. we're an opinionated bunch but I find myself agreeing (as usual) with a lot of the points you've made in this vid!
I have a question, but I want to set up with patterns that I noticed. I believe that Rise of the Dread Moon was planned from the get go. The Knights Commander was the precursor to that expansion. Likewise I think the Rogue Heir was the precursor to Mage of the Mirror. I do not think HQ is beholden to Warhammer. However, HQ was originally inspired by it. In Warhammer, Ogres have a Mongolian aesthetic. That all being said, could the monk be a tip to a possible Against the Ogre Hoard expansion?
Here's the thing. Most of the hero types don't belong. The rogue doesn't really belong because we already have a rogue: the dwarf. The barbarian doesn't really belong because weird frost nomads are off doing their own thing. The knight actually fits really well, as does the wizard. The elf only really belongs if you lean into Tolkienian fantasy (vs medieval fantasy). So what does belong? What's the lore for this game, if you strip out the Warhammer connection? What belongs when you have no parameters for what belongs?
It's a new world now - Heroquest started as a backdoor introduction to the Warhammer world & hobby. Now it's a backdoor introduction to the Dungeons & Dragons world & hobby. The Monk fits better in one world than the other. I'm comfortable with the change in setting and embrace the results - for me it's a simple choice between changed Heroquest lore & no new Heroquest at all. But I think they really needed to establish the new world & lore for the new edition as part of the reprint - the Mythic Tier quest books and the Rise of the Dread Moon (and now the Wandering Monk) are all clearly drawing on new lore / are based in a new world, but it's jarring because they left all the other existing lore, quest & story elements the same, just with tweaked names to distance itself from the Warhammer IP. I hope they start putting more explicit lore changes in their coming releases, so I can learn about the new world we adventure in and I no longer need to draw on Warhammer for clues about the wider Heroquest world (as even though there are similarities, I agree that the original game was never fully tied into the Warhammer lore - there were several notable differences). So they should stop pretending and tell us more about this new Heroquest world.
I'm thinking our Ogres are going to live in a place that has a lot of ties to this land. I think we'll see a lot of the culture show up again throughout that expac....at least, that's my almost grounds-less prediction!
I'm not bothered by the creation of a monk hero. I'm bothered that instead of just sticking it in the next expansion for an extra ten bucks that they want me to pay $15 or so for two minis and a handful of cards. Just release heros with new expansions. I'd rather get new quests, heroes, tiles, boards, monsters, spells, equipment, treasure, and scatter terrain all in one box for a little more cash than buy things piecemeal like this. Half the reason to pick up Dread Moon is the Guardian Knight. Half the reason I kick myself for not backing the Kickstarter is I missed out in all the heroes with the mythic set. Yet the Rogue Heir was the most disappointing thing I've ever bought. $16 for a handful of game pieces? One of the very few misses by Avalon Hill, who have otherwise done a damn fine job resurrecting the finest rules-lite rpg ever created. (Yeah, I said it, come at me Gloomhaven and Descent).
I like that idea, really. Probably there are time constraints involved with writing quests and being sure that they are playtested and accessible for everyone, but it could also drive costs up when all they really want to do is get a new hero out there.
One one side i like the classic style that doesnt wander too far beyond the more western tinted fantasy setting. On the other hand, new and interesting characters and abilities are cool. I think it would have been more interesting, if the monk had been a new approach. Lets call it elemental mystic or spirit dancer, the mini could have mixed aestethics like used in some of the ahq art or even oriental influences and a pose that invoces the martial arts stances but is a bit off somehow. something that is its own thing, but still can be seen as a monk by those who like a more d&d-ish flavour to it.
I'm cool with the monk. If they go further down that road and really dive into ninja and samurai stuff right away then I'll get a little annoyed, but if they dip into multple aspects of different types of fantasy lore from multiple cultures and backgrounds - and not linger in eastern options for too long - then I'll be happy. HQ could use a bit more of a branching out from western fantasy, but not to its detriment and at the expense of what it started out as. Maybe they could dive back into various offshoot western classes that would be familiar to their standard fans and then approach something like the samurai 3 or 4 character packs later. Something like that.
Curious if the folks upset or critical of the Monk, were crying out in 1992, that the Frozen North was wrong and didn't belong in Heroquest? It's an entirely different setting from the base HQ game itself. (I'm sure someone will try to give some reason, and that's not my point, so no reason to HQ-splain it to me). I agree with your closing comments that there's some hypocrisy in what is and isn't acceptable, and sometimes it just feels the explanation given is more out of bias and not lore based which is what fuels these discussions with others HQsplaining why things shouldn't be a part of the game. At the end of the day, the game is a sandbox, and everyone can choose where to spend their money when playing in their own sandbox, so if there's content that individuals don't like or want, they can easily not acquire it, and not have it a part of their game. AH isn't shoving these hero's down anyone's throat to say you must have orc bards hero's in HQ. I'd also like to add that the PotWM doesn't include any details on origin or settings for the Monk. So they could easily be hero's from the main capital of the Realm, or Monks who train in the Frozen North, or study their magical martial discipline in Elethorn. So there is a lot of assumptions being given about this new hero as well. Just as they don't give a back story to any of the hero's, this is player choice defined.
Excellent comment. Thank you for taking the time! I love the term HQsplaining. I get a little of that. I agree with it all but, I will say the assumptions based around possible origin (which some understandably take into account even if they are going to make a new character with their own backstory) has a lot to do with the appearance - it's distinctly different than any we've seen so far, and I feel it's intended to infer that these monks aren't from elethorn, or the north, or the capital... and yet, to your point, it also doesn't necessarily detract from an origin wherein they are ("I was born in the capital, but we have training grounds set up for this style of magic, and of course I dress in the style traditional of those who train there...."). It's another quantum... 😆 no complaints from me though! Vague but with hints, as far as I'm concerned, is the way!
@@AshQuest Yeah, HQsplaining seems like the best way to describe most of YOI and discord discussions of this game. I understand the sentiment of the clothes may seem to define a hero's origin. But I also don't assume that all the kids at the Karate school down the street in gi's are from Japan. Sure there's origin and such that can be established as such, but it's obvious that these things can also just be considered uniforms for those in that field of training, especially in a fantasy setting where literally anything is possible. The monks could just as easily be a sect who train their mental and physical skills in a remote area of the HQ world such as the World's End mountains. It's the user who establishes that link, and I think some folks just have an inherent bias of what is and isn't, and can't see past those when first presented with ideas that are different. At face value of the mini appearance, the Barbarian has no business being from the Frozen North. Looks more like Conan the barbarian in his Hyborian Age, which I think has a lot of influence on HQ, and has a bigger basis for a multicultural fantasy setting.
The monk is fine as long as he/she has well written lore. But what happens when a time traveling cowboy shows up with a pistol ranged weapon and plus 2 combat whisky fist ability?
Heroquest already had an eastern flavour wiyh the japanese quests book. I hope they release an expansion for the original Japanese version. Maybe the monk character hints at the future release of the japanese quests expansion!?
The Wandering Kung-Fu monk is a Chinese trope though, think the original "Journey to the West". Same with the oriental sorcerer, mainly Chinese. For Japan think Samurai, Ninja, and Hentai.
Do i like my dark medieval style but i see the benefit of adding other cultures if not only so other people see a spark of their background used in their favoriet game. I hope they do more i love to see or hero’s go into dark piramides or in a Arabian nights setting . We all want giant spiders , but what if they are in a rain forrest jungle ruins with a evil Anasi like spider queen/king and some African style spiritual or warrior class to help or hero’s fight this evil
Some play it with, some without. AH have a stance on bracers as armor that was Tweeted, but nothing "in teh books" as of yet, so it'll be up to Zargon, as always...
I'm not against the monk. I run my as if it's still I Warhammer Fantasy so it's easy to say this monk person is from Grand Cathay or Nippon. Is easy to have your games in the Warhammer Fantasy Universe as GW themselves have made a multiverse with different outcomes of Archaon's war against the empire. I just think my games are in a universe where Mentor stopped the end times from occurring.
Nothing wrong with this, at all! I've seen some WILD story setups linking the GW WHF and HQ universes in a more explicit manner, some with morcar, zargon and sometimes even grimdead as separate entities (I like this myself; Z and M are the same to me, GD is different). If its fun, then it works!
I absolutely am really excited to get my monk model... For using in league of dungeoneers, my mage in it is a master of touching magic and the model is great for Kournoak the wizard
I'm all for the monk. Adding variation to the hero archetypes can only be a good thing for HQ. I'd like to see more of this!
This eastern monk/nun flair does not fit into the HQ that I imagine, but that is the great with such a modular aspect. People who like it can include it, people like me can leave it out.
It's optional, and every option is an enrichment, even if you do not use it.
Warrior Monks have been part of the Warhammer world since the 2nd edition! HeroQuest was originally a spin-off of Warhammer, so it fits!
I don't even know what Hero Quest is UA-cam just showed me this video. At the end of the day the "Monk" archetype was included because it was cool. It has always been cool. It will always be cool at least in a fantasy setting.
Monk is fine and will get them, but feel it was not the time for them as I would of preferred a healer class instead. Then a Monk class after that.
Yeah, a more clerical monk (like a Friar Tuck type or more historical druid/hermit type) would have been neat.
The answer is simple: Do YOU want monks inYOUR HeroQuest campaign? If so, they belong. If not, oh well, maybe the next release will be more up your alley. Personally, I love the monk. A character straight from Grand Cathay.
What HQ really needs are more archtypes from around the world (samurai, wu-jen, hoogan priest(ess) (yall know where Im going with this). More characters way more variety. What HQ really needs is a magazine like Dragon for official rules and such.
If someone doesn't want the monk in his Hero Quest... just don't buy it.
I agree with preferring western fantasy. I'm good with the monk and I'll definitely give it a try, but I'd like to see something like a psionic/mindblade type class. Attack the minds of enemies and make use of those mind points!
This guy gets it! ...sounds like a Kai lord :) !
(THIS IS WHY WE NEED THAT WIZARD EXPAC. IT HAD THE MIND POINT MECHANICS!)
@@AshQuest ahhhhhh! Either way I kiiiiinda hope they don't add much more in the way of classes. Don't need too many that makes balancing impossible. MOAR quests!
It is good to think of the world building this inspires. I have the remixed Japanese base game and now we have a new at to include this type of character. The best thing about world building is seeing different cultures look at all the eastern tropes in Conan now I will be able to link my adventures with the actions taken by Grimdead
yeah HeroQuest fans generally are very protective of the IP we love, even though there is always "you can make it your own" in the back of everyone's mind and at the front of Avalon Hill's lips. when it's homebrew the sky is the limit. when it's official, people are very cautious when it comes to anything new or changed from what they remember having. it's just something the company has to keep in mind whenever they do stuff so that's the balancing act they perform
Let's not pretend like Rise of the Dread Moon did not turn the heroes into ninjas. Smoke bombs, caltrops, disguises, all of that are fine?
Ill be honest. I love the efforts put into it, even if there are elements of RotDM that I don't *prefer*. Just like there are things I wish were different in the base game system itself (mind point usage comes to mind first).
The short answer is though, of course it's fine. The campaign was designed through a lens that not everyone collectively is going to share. I don't get "ninja" but you do, and that illustrates a small bit of the spectrum of perspective. But just like everything else, it won't likely absolutely answer everyone's perception of a perfect next, new campaign...because I don't think there is a campaign that could without getting some flak from someone, somewhere.
I understand what you mean though. Disguises, smoke bombs...it seems like cowardice and tomfoolery for the likes of my barb and dwarf. With this release and qith the monk, we seem to edge closer to an experience that wants a roleplay system.
Rotdm and whether it strays too far from the HQ formula so many have observed is a future video. :)
A Rogue could fill a Ninja-like role.
Nimble and skirmisher, skilled with small blades like daggers and shortswords. They don't use armor, so disguises are in their reach. The smoke bombs and caltrops are also a nice addition to them.
Now that we know all of the skills and attributes of the Monk, have you tried playtesting it yet? I plan to do so once I finish ToTK.
I have a feeling that the fire skills will be so incredibly rarely unlocked, since they will take 4 consecutive turns of combat to get there. That helps balance their power level, but I wonder if the other 3 will be able to keep the Monk relevant the rest of the time.
I also really dislike the lack of progression. There is no reason to use most of their allowed weapons (just get a crossbow and attack with that at range, or unarmed in close), and they can't upgrade their defense at all. The character maxes out at 350 gold.
I typed this right before you closed with not wanting to proxy early, so that answers that question. 😂
(If I get a break and can playtest early with proxies, I will!)
Not all the styles count as actions! Depending on the conditions, the Monk may be able to use the fire style in the third turn...then will need to retreat (and run faster than the monsters, if any are alive) to recover them all.
I'm seeing comments on low progression ceiling as well as OP-ness...and honestly the comments there have merit. Perhaps this will be something for AH to refer back to with more named equipment going forward (we may see future expansions with higher priced specialty staff or other weapons they can use). I think this grants some additional validation to the Barbarian and Dwarf in this current ability climate, though!
@@AshQuest correct, some don't count as actions, but you can still only invoke one style per turn. Since you regain ALL styles if no monsters are visible, you would need to invoke one style (and use it) on turn 1, then invoke and use the other 2 styles while maintaining monster visions, and then begin that 4th turn with monster vision to use them. Most combat doesn't last that long, so either a) there are just that many (or strong) monsters, b) combat is being played sub-optimally to allow the Monk to reach turn 4, c) door blocking while keeping the Monk's vision clear, or d) very unlucky rolls!
I just can't picture fire being used very often. But again, that's possibly good (they look very powerful!), and will require playtesting to see how often they actually get used.
I also hope they do release Monk-specific (or at least implied) gear. I'm not a big fan of your beloved Warlock because of the lack of progression (their weapon literally never upgrades, and they have to fight the wizard for the Cloak). They start out very strong, but I get bored with them easily because of the lack of progression. The Monk seems like an even more extreme version of that. I hope they find ways to add progression (outside of homebrewing XP systems, of course!)
@@danielpurdom9141 "...and they can't upgrade their defense at all"
Don't forget the Bracers. They can improve their defense dice from their base 3 to 4 dice, which is better than the Rogue, as he start with 2 and can only use the Bracers to improve it to 3 (on the other hand, Rogues are very good at damage dealing with little to no gold investment).
Always a pleasure to watch your videos.
The Wandering Monk has been valid since AD&D's Oriental Adventures. But it's weird they get put in before the other staple of Cleric.
If we got a "Pirate Quest" fantasy game with nautical monsters, sailors and soldiers, and ships, and it was compatible with "HeroQuest", I would love it.
I am loving the idea of the pirate.
Endless reasons for our heroes to need a ship...and endless dangers on the waters!!
I say welcome to the monk! Love it.
The fact that the original back cover of the _Return of the Witch Lord_ had the map of _The Old World_ is a clear indication that HeroQuest was set in the Warhammer setting. Add that to the fimir monster and the chaos magic and it's very hard to argue it wasn't set in the Warhammer. It may not be deeply rooted, but the Warhammer references were there to the point that Hasbro had to remove them.
And Monks were present in Warhammer 1st Edition - Forces of Fantasy - Volume 1, Men of the Orient (1983). The "Men of the Orient" come from kingdoms like Cathay and Nippon, which are the Warhammer equivalents for China and Japan, respectively.
And even outside Warhammer, Monks are represent as playable options multiple times in fantasy games, from the early days of D&D to this day.
So if someone says "I don't like Monks and they won't be present in my game", that fine. That's personal preference. But to say that they don't belong to a fantasy game like HeroQuest is false, considering how long monks are out there in fantasy games.
Thank you for the well read comment. :)
It is that exact map to which I refer in this very video. The points you make are great, and definitely included among those to which I considered (and to which I responded) when making this video. For me and some others, one included map in a specific edition of one expansion, wasn't an explicit admission of being set in the same universe; that's something I feel has enough weight to stand on its own, and I've said as much here. I dont speak for anyone else but myself, but I don't personally think it's hard to argue either for or against the WH association, nor the acceptability of the presence of monks in anyone's setting.
That said, its perfectly reasonable and acceptable for anyone to play it as such. It's your HQ, and the inferred links are there to be interpreted!
Removing the IP references didn't break HQ or damage its lore in any way. We still get to enjoy the setting without those few IP bits (which included a form of Chaos magic that wasn't even defined explicitly in WH standards).
So we have a new fork; the Avalon Hill Canon. It's a great one that I hope lasts a long time!
@@AshQuest Sure, removing the Warhammer references didn't break the HeroQuest. The thing is that _they were there._
Considering that the original HeroQuest had Fimirs, Chaos Magic and The Map of the Old World in the back cover of the _Return of the Witch Lord,_ how is it possible possible to still argue that it was not set in the Warhammer setting? The Warhammer's fingerprints and DNA were there, to the point that they had to be removed.
Not to mention that, even if we completely ignore the Warhammer reference for the Monks since the first year of Warhammer publication, monks are playable options since the early days of D&D (as you mentioned in the video). Oriental heroes are part of a multitude of fantasy settings.
People should know the difference between personal preferences and facts. The personal preference may say _"I don't like monks and they don't exist in my games"._ That's totally fine. But arguing that Monks don't belong to the world of HeroQuest is not only refutable for nearly half a century of publication history of several fantasy games (including but not limited to Warhammer), but it also sounds like a sort of delusion where the person thinks he/she know better than the authors who are publishing HeroQuest.
@@AshQuest And one point about the Warlock, mentioned at 23:21.
The fact that the Warlock has an agreement with a dark entity doesn't make her less heroic. Spawn and Ghost Rider are examples of well know characters who literally have a pact with the devil, and yet they use their hellish powers for good.
And if we look to the D&D Warlock, even those who are from the Pact of the Fiend can still be heroes, as we can see in the subclass description:
_"You have made a pact with a fiend from the lower planes of existence, a being whose aims are evil, _*_even if you strive against those aims."_*
Great points, and a lot of food for thought. We can at the very least, agree to disagree for now!
Thanks for helping defend my warlock. Very good points, and I like them, even if I understand they won't convince everyone.
I'm guilty of bias - I love the illustration and the sculpt for this character, as well as halflings in general, and anti-heroes.
Really, the vid is mostly about "Do I agree" being a completely different topic than "Do I get it."
We should be able to not agree, but still *understand* why the subjective viewpoints of others are valid.
And that includes understanding that a copyright or trademark holder, who creates canon for *an interpretation*, *absolutely* has the potential to go off rails, and be wrong in their decision making. Hasn't happened yet, but they're only nerds like us all the same!
Personally I would argue this ship already sailed when they created the Bard and the Druid. The original game was very low fantasy while this current version seems to be aiming closer to current D&D high fantasy which Monks are almost ubiquitously included in. I'm surprised anyone would balk at a monk but be perfectly OK with having a spell slinging singer.
In any case though you're right it really doesn't matter what the official canon setting is, it's your table make the game yours if you don't want monks in the game don't play with the expansion.
I think its great addition. Long live Heroquest!
I really like the Monk idea. One character I've been thinking about a lot currently is simply a character who tries to use communication and gile to trick and move enemies? Maybe they can use mind points to get enemies to attack each other. Or drop items. Or simply leave a room and shuffle down a hallway.
So while the Monk would be all about fast critical strikes. Maybe we could have a charismatic and deceptive bandit?
But I'm very excited for the Monk. And my partner loves the female Guardian Knight.
The Female Knight is pretty awesome. 😍
I like your idea about someone with a more mental-focused loadout. Really put the mind points into use! I know a ton of homebrew has been done to facilitate more MP usage. Maybe it's time to analyze them here.
yeah... 30 years of nostalgia (and the fact that many of us didn't know about Warhammer or play D&D when we were playing HeroQuest) can have an effect. D&D has gotten so huge its hard for people to get past it and its influence as if D&D is the end-all, be-all of fantasy tabletop games (it's not, but still that's a widespread perception). I think there's a difference too between "purists" on official HeroQuest releases ("canon" and all that) vs. homebrew that can be based on anything including being a direct ripoff of something. we're an opinionated bunch but I find myself agreeing (as usual) with a lot of the points you've made in this vid!
Only of he/she can be a catfolk named "Punchcat"
I have a question, but I want to set up with patterns that I noticed. I believe that Rise of the Dread Moon was planned from the get go. The Knights Commander was the precursor to that expansion. Likewise I think the Rogue Heir was the precursor to Mage of the Mirror.
I do not think HQ is beholden to Warhammer. However, HQ was originally inspired by it. In Warhammer, Ogres have a Mongolian aesthetic.
That all being said, could the monk be a tip to a possible Against the Ogre Hoard expansion?
Ogre Horde has been confirmed, so this is the theory I am going with as well. :)
Here's the thing. Most of the hero types don't belong. The rogue doesn't really belong because we already have a rogue: the dwarf. The barbarian doesn't really belong because weird frost nomads are off doing their own thing. The knight actually fits really well, as does the wizard. The elf only really belongs if you lean into Tolkienian fantasy (vs medieval fantasy). So what does belong? What's the lore for this game, if you strip out the Warhammer connection? What belongs when you have no parameters for what belongs?
It's a new world now - Heroquest started as a backdoor introduction to the Warhammer world & hobby.
Now it's a backdoor introduction to the Dungeons & Dragons world & hobby.
The Monk fits better in one world than the other.
I'm comfortable with the change in setting and embrace the results - for me it's a simple choice between changed Heroquest lore & no new Heroquest at all.
But I think they really needed to establish the new world & lore for the new edition as part of the reprint - the Mythic Tier quest books and the Rise of the Dread Moon (and now the Wandering Monk) are all clearly drawing on new lore / are based in a new world, but it's jarring because they left all the other existing lore, quest & story elements the same, just with tweaked names to distance itself from the Warhammer IP.
I hope they start putting more explicit lore changes in their coming releases, so I can learn about the new world we adventure in and I no longer need to draw on Warhammer for clues about the wider Heroquest world (as even though there are similarities, I agree that the original game was never fully tied into the Warhammer lore - there were several notable differences).
So they should stop pretending and tell us more about this new Heroquest world.
I'm thinking our Ogres are going to live in a place that has a lot of ties to this land. I think we'll see a lot of the culture show up again throughout that expac....at least, that's my almost grounds-less prediction!
I'm not bothered by the creation of a monk hero.
I'm bothered that instead of just sticking it in the next expansion for an extra ten bucks that they want me to pay $15 or so for two minis and a handful of cards.
Just release heros with new expansions. I'd rather get new quests, heroes, tiles, boards, monsters, spells, equipment, treasure, and scatter terrain all in one box for a little more cash than buy things piecemeal like this. Half the reason to pick up Dread Moon is the Guardian Knight. Half the reason I kick myself for not backing the Kickstarter is I missed out in all the heroes with the mythic set.
Yet the Rogue Heir was the most disappointing thing I've ever bought. $16 for a handful of game pieces? One of the very few misses by Avalon Hill, who have otherwise done a damn fine job resurrecting the finest rules-lite rpg ever created. (Yeah, I said it, come at me Gloomhaven and Descent).
Hi Ash why don't they release quest books with the hero collection packs to help start games with the new figures
I like that idea, really. Probably there are time constraints involved with writing quests and being sure that they are playtested and accessible for everyone, but it could also drive costs up when all they really want to do is get a new hero out there.
Spelljammering Friars when lol
Personally, I would like to see a Dwarven Paladin, a Half-Elf Ranger, and/or... Halfing.
That's right, just Halfling.
I would like to see another Hero that is simply named for their race and given a set of archetype abilities. And halfling is a great choice.
Paladins are Humans only in the only editions of D&D that matter - the Gygax editions.
One one side i like the classic style that doesnt wander too far beyond the more western tinted fantasy setting.
On the other hand, new and interesting characters and abilities are cool.
I think it would have been more interesting, if the monk had been a new approach. Lets call it elemental mystic or spirit dancer, the mini could have mixed aestethics like used in some of the ahq art or even oriental influences and a pose that invoces the martial arts stances but is a bit off somehow. something that is its own thing, but still can be seen as a monk by those who like a more d&d-ish flavour to it.
I agree. Good points, and this would be a great way to introduce characters as well!
I'm cool with the monk. If they go further down that road and really dive into ninja and samurai stuff right away then I'll get a little annoyed, but if they dip into multple aspects of different types of fantasy lore from multiple cultures and backgrounds - and not linger in eastern options for too long - then I'll be happy. HQ could use a bit more of a branching out from western fantasy, but not to its detriment and at the expense of what it started out as. Maybe they could dive back into various offshoot western classes that would be familiar to their standard fans and then approach something like the samurai 3 or 4 character packs later. Something like that.
Agreed on ninja and monk. And you put it well, dip into, but not at the expense of what it started as. I like that.
Curious if the folks upset or critical of the Monk, were crying out in 1992, that the Frozen North was wrong and didn't belong in Heroquest? It's an entirely different setting from the base HQ game itself. (I'm sure someone will try to give some reason, and that's not my point, so no reason to HQ-splain it to me). I agree with your closing comments that there's some hypocrisy in what is and isn't acceptable, and sometimes it just feels the explanation given is more out of bias and not lore based which is what fuels these discussions with others HQsplaining why things shouldn't be a part of the game. At the end of the day, the game is a sandbox, and everyone can choose where to spend their money when playing in their own sandbox, so if there's content that individuals don't like or want, they can easily not acquire it, and not have it a part of their game. AH isn't shoving these hero's down anyone's throat to say you must have orc bards hero's in HQ.
I'd also like to add that the PotWM doesn't include any details on origin or settings for the Monk. So they could easily be hero's from the main capital of the Realm, or Monks who train in the Frozen North, or study their magical martial discipline in Elethorn. So there is a lot of assumptions being given about this new hero as well. Just as they don't give a back story to any of the hero's, this is player choice defined.
Excellent comment. Thank you for taking the time!
I love the term HQsplaining. I get a little of that.
I agree with it all but, I will say the assumptions based around possible origin (which some understandably take into account even if they are going to make a new character with their own backstory) has a lot to do with the appearance - it's distinctly different than any we've seen so far, and I feel it's intended to infer that these monks aren't from elethorn, or the north, or the capital... and yet, to your point, it also doesn't necessarily detract from an origin wherein they are ("I was born in the capital, but we have training grounds set up for this style of magic, and of course I dress in the style traditional of those who train there....").
It's another quantum... 😆 no complaints from me though! Vague but with hints, as far as I'm concerned, is the way!
@@AshQuest Yeah, HQsplaining seems like the best way to describe most of YOI and discord discussions of this game.
I understand the sentiment of the clothes may seem to define a hero's origin. But I also don't assume that all the kids at the Karate school down the street in gi's are from Japan. Sure there's origin and such that can be established as such, but it's obvious that these things can also just be considered uniforms for those in that field of training, especially in a fantasy setting where literally anything is possible. The monks could just as easily be a sect who train their mental and physical skills in a remote area of the HQ world such as the World's End mountains. It's the user who establishes that link, and I think some folks just have an inherent bias of what is and isn't, and can't see past those when first presented with ideas that are different.
At face value of the mini appearance, the Barbarian has no business being from the Frozen North. Looks more like Conan the barbarian in his Hyborian Age, which I think has a lot of influence on HQ, and has a bigger basis for a multicultural fantasy setting.
Is the Monk a hero.... on a quest?
The monk is fine as long as he/she has well written lore. But what happens when a time traveling cowboy shows up with a pistol ranged weapon and plus 2 combat whisky fist ability?
Let's do it. I'm not ready, but when would anyone ever be?!
Heroquest already had an eastern flavour wiyh the japanese quests book. I hope they release an expansion for the original Japanese version. Maybe the monk character hints at the future release of the japanese quests expansion!?
The Wandering Kung-Fu monk is a Chinese trope though, think the original "Journey to the West". Same with the oriental sorcerer, mainly Chinese. For Japan think Samurai, Ninja, and Hentai.
Mix some Eberron like stuff would be cool.
I think the monk is fine
It’s just a champion pack but I wouldn’t want a hole expansion as there is still so much of the western theme to explore
Do i like my dark medieval style but i see the benefit of adding other cultures if not only so other people see a spark of their background used in their favoriet game.
I hope they do more i love to see or hero’s go into dark piramides or in a Arabian nights setting . We all want giant spiders , but what if they are in a rain forrest jungle ruins with a evil Anasi like spider queen/king and some African style spiritual or warrior class to help or hero’s fight this evil
I do agree with representation and love that you brought it up. I wish I had, I should have, so thank you.
It's an important point!
Do bracers count as armor? Can the Monk wear bracers?
Some play it with, some without. AH have a stance on bracers as armor that was Tweeted, but nothing "in teh books" as of yet, so it'll be up to Zargon, as always...
I'm good with monks / kineticists as long as they are not pandas.
Valid! 😆
I'm not against the monk. I run my as if it's still I Warhammer Fantasy so it's easy to say this monk person is from Grand Cathay or Nippon. Is easy to have your games in the Warhammer Fantasy Universe as GW themselves have made a multiverse with different outcomes of Archaon's war against the empire. I just think my games are in a universe where Mentor stopped the end times from occurring.
Nothing wrong with this, at all!
I've seen some WILD story setups linking the GW WHF and HQ universes in a more explicit manner, some with morcar, zargon and sometimes even grimdead as separate entities (I like this myself; Z and M are the same to me, GD is different).
If its fun, then it works!
@@AshQuest I've seen a lot of people call Zargon "Morcar von Zargon" I think this is the good and proper way to combine the NA and Euro versions
I was born in 75. *bad word* you.
Awhh CRAP 🤣
I absolutely am really excited to get my monk model... For using in league of dungeoneers, my mage in it is a master of touching magic and the model is great for Kournoak the wizard