The Dark Side of Competition in AI | Liv Boeree | TED
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- Опубліковано 8 лис 2023
- Competition is a core part of human nature, and it can drive us to extraordinary feats. But when it goes wrong, the results can be devastating. Poker champion and science communicator Liv Boeree introduces us to "Moloch's trap" - the dark force of game theory driving many of humanity's biggest social problems, which is now threatening to derail the AI industry.
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I'm in accord for changing our mindset from scarcity to abundance. The choice here will determine whether we continue to compete (mindset of scarcity) or change to a mindset of potential abundance, and begin cooperation and contribute towards a harmonious alignment.
Will you volantiraly stay at your current income level and donate anything above necessary to developing countries for them to catch up ?
@@meguzhevlmao why not just tax the companies that exploited those countries the most? hypermegagiga imperial superprofits can more than easily solve every material problem that they in huge part caused through decades of unequal exchange under neoliberal hegemony after bunk "decolonisation".
make sense
I believe before the competition, its that Debt became to be the business model of the planet, everything serves it. And that there is no true discovery because it denominates everything. Debt and slavery is recorded in every ancient text we have and has been institutionalized. Vedas have debt-bondage, Bible debt-slavery. The “obscenity” is that the Debt is binded to future time, not the present time. I am trying to work thru a new economic model that is based only on the present now, no debt.
This is a well needed speech. Probably the most relevant one I've seen this year. Just like a sport, you need a referee to step in and regulate.
Excellent presentation. In short, she’s asking the worlds governments and the worlds largest. and most powerful, companies to put people before profits. Makes sense, but it will never happen in this world.
Liv the fact you are calling out the Moloch agenda has exceeded my respect for you. My favorite poker player of all time and now one of my favorite humans. Thank you for promoting AI safety in a dangerous world, in san fransisco wish i saw this live. Much love
Well said.
Thanks for all these people who are recognising the problem and is willing to stand out and talk about it. Sacrificing own prospect for the bigger good is certainly not easy, but it is a needed effort. Thanks all the anonymous heroes that are going to take part in helping to stop molic.
yeah, 👍 👍
ppl will use concepts like 'dark force of game theory' and do insane mental gymnastics to avoid critiquing capitalism. "capitalism" (undefined) can "cause problems" which it then "can also solve". bruh. "it's something much deeper."
no, actually, several of the dark forces of game theory cluster and are actively rewarded by CAPITALISTIC SOCIAL SYSTEMS.
the dark forces of game theory will *not* be eradicated from human interactions, but if they are actively reinforced and reproduced en masse BECAUSE they efficiently support short-term, artificial scarcity based win-lose/negative-sum games that the elite have been gaming and hacking for centuries, concentrating and magnifying them so that a tiny minority can accumulate insane amounts of power and affluence through extreme exploitation of ~everyone else, trashing the life-supporting systems of earth in the process -- literally omnicidal and deeply anti-social structura dynamics -- then we may seriously f this whole global industrial civilization project up.
something has to give, and there's not going to be globalised industrial capitalism without the dark forces of game theory.
Well, role of CEO is to make company profitable as much as possible. We need to change incentives (for example require companies make actions to prevent harm or getting fine). It's naive to just count on good will of actors if incentives and rules of game result in different behavior.
It's to increase the value of the company as much as possible, profit is just one way that happens. also, we have rules and people who enforce them when it comes to bad behavior, we don't rely on good will.
To me The issue seems to be that people are working on technology that is so powerful, everybody is forced to prioritize it's development. The leaders of certain countries know that if an opposition utilizes this technology much sooner than they do, they're effectively done for as a culture. Nobody trusts each other enough to agree to a cease development. Even if they did agree, the door is already open and all it'll take is for a few "bad actors" to ruin everything.
@Ant3_14 You can't change the bedrock of what Capitalism represents: profit above all else indefinitely. That's even more naive to suggest what you're proposing.
What you're proposing is completely upending the system and history proves youngin' change like this does not happen peacefully nor through votes. It's violent and bloody. To argue anything else otherwise defies human history since writing has been invented. This isn't an argumetn against your point, however, you need to realize the futility simple and small incremental changes because you're no looking at the root of the problem.
@@iamski
1. I don't suggest changing what capitalism is, but rather using cash as argument against doing harmful things. Companies will try to not lose cash on that.
2. What I'm proposing is successful so far as companies align more or less with laws cause they don't want to hurt profits. It doesn't look like violence.
3.Yes it's about small increments, that's how we improved most times. Big changes are riskier so unless well thought I won't suggest them.
@@Ant3_14 1. Agree. 2. Won't happen ever unless we remove capitalism. 3. We're past incremental changes. This has been developing since the 1970's and this is the end result.
You have to see it as a cancer patient who has gone 5 years without adressing their issue. And now in order to save the patient you have to resort to more dangerous and aggressive radiation therapy which probably is already too late.
Listen man, I dig what you're trying to say, but brother, the owners of this country do not care nor will they listen to you or I. They are already completely controlled by Wall Street. That's what I'm saying, it's inevitable that the country is going to collapse or go into civil war. We're nearly just watching the freak show unfold.
If there's money to be made and AI can accelerate replacing human jobs if there's profit to be made, they will do it 1000% of the time. We're already seeing it.
"Moloch's trap" - that term is going to catch-on. Well played.
I believe we’ve already reached AGI by a very important metric. It’s cheaper to train computers to perform tasks than it is to employ and educate humans to do the same. This is a fundamental problem. We have to rethink the entire concept of money, because our labor loses more and more purchasing power by the second.
Labor loses money because there's no need for so much labor force, so people become less required resources even before AI.
Humans like to think about nature laws as a joke to utilize for their benefits but population control is one of the most fundamental rules of nature. And humanity managed to diminish nature control with fossil energy but it just won't continue this way in the near future
makr sense
Everytime I listen to one of these talks or podcasts with this woman I am convinced that she is a genius. Great mind, so glad people like her are getting the attention they deserve, judging by views.
Should get a million times more. Hats off.
agree
Wow what great talk and the message....thanks for this!!!💯
This was an absolute awesome breakdown on various issues, and an excellent offer for solutions.
Brilliant. Thanks so much for putting this together and giving us all something new to think about.
Fantastic job. Absolutely hit the nail on the head when you talk about the problem being the incentives, not the players. Humans are, always have been, always will be, fallible. If you want to predict the future of any process, evaluate the incentives in that process. If you want to direct the future in a more positive way that promotes a balanced ecosystem, the defining incentives are the only thing that gets you there. Loved this TED talk. Well done.
Liv this was fantastic, thank you
very reasonable, but i dont see any possible solution for this moloch's game. It's impossible to coordinate any real solution when almost every country is competing, especially when these countries are non-cooperative in the first place, and more especially that there is such a wide income disparity among these countries that they see the hope of them being filled by the new AI techs. Even if we are just talking about one single country, I do not see such possibilities.
Why is that academia is NEVER mentioned in the same breath as innovation, where the lions share of breakthrough innovations and the training of innovators happen?
Corporations are risk averse -- they "innovate" only if there are short-term profits to be made, and these tend to be safe. More substantial innovation are often aligned with universities and research institutions that have significant public funding.
It's really tough because we can't know for certain what actions within a field will count as falling into a moloch trap, and to some degree we need to be pushing the boundary. For anything obviously bad, we'd typically have fairly clear legislation, but the critical failures come from the ambiguous grey areas within a competitive landscape. It's those points at which pragmatism over-rides idealism in ways that are totally understandable, even if there are clear downsides.
Maybe we need to fall into the trap to hold the edge long enough to generate the practical idealistic solution?
In thinking about all of this stuff I always think that it's a failure of knowledge and understanding which holds us back from adequately addressing the problem. I suspect that going into the AGI era is going to many of us entering into a race to either solve the world, or win the world. Maybe this has always been the race, but we might finally get to the finish line. At least for as long as that equilibrium holds.
Qué claro que la tiene esta dama.! Me impresionó lo de los medios, porque acá en mi país estamos atrapados por una polarización cada vez más profunda.
Saludos desde La Ciudad el Humo.
Shots fired at Satya Nadella!
I laughed hard at that part. Satya, the DJ
Liv always delivers top draw content! good work, thanks for sharing your perspectives
This is awesome and thank you for a viewpoint from this perspective, and love how you use AI to make those pictures :) Isn't it strange that AI art is already easily identifiable like it has its own watermark already.
Yeah, this is really good speech ! Thank you !
Thank you Liv for your incredible insights! I first came across you when you talked with Lex, and that was also an incredibly interesting conversation.
Brilliant Ted Talk Liv!!! Bravo
A wondeful insight on some of the issues presented by AI competition, amazing lecture!
🙌🙏 wonderfully precise
totally rad and well stated, thanks
Great thoughts about how wrong incentives bring us to destruction. Question remains why this so often appears with human economic and societal models
Because resources are a zero sum game, no matter how much we pretend they are not.
@@carsonhunt4642and the western countries lived in a relatively resource abundance for a long time as the outside world had less people in general and each one of them had far less ability to access the same resources to compete with the West.
Thanks so much
Great talk Liv! I really hope enough people get this message or are in this mindset to really change the game, as we need it ❤🙏🏽
Love what you've done with your path, maximum respect to you 👏🏼
Your speech left me silent and grateful somehow... so that I have got the picture twisted out onto the right position - the point of extreme conscious of the things done and yet to be done. Thank you.
00:33 📸 AI beauty filters, while impressive, can lead to body dysmorphia and self-esteem issues, especially among young people.
02:32 📰 Increased competition in news media has led to a race for clickbait and polarization, undermining trust and truth in journalism.
04:02 🌍 Crappy incentives in various industries have led to problems like plastic pollution, deforestation, and antibiotic overuse.
07:08 🤖 The AI industry's intense competition may compromise safety testing, potentially leading to risks associated with rushed AI development.
10:04 🏢 AI leaders should prioritize collective benefits over individual gains, fostering responsible development and avoiding Moloch's trap.
Make-up is a beauty filter, yet she wears it all the same.
And just like AI make up makes Margot Robbie and Angelina Jolie hotter, which is why both of them wear make-up every time they make a public appearance.
Not hating on make up, just saying it's not very consistent that's all.
Anyway thanks for the recap!
So - how do we harness AI to change the rules and incentives of the competitive game? You know - use a bit of reflexive aikido moves, or do I mean recursive governance?
The internet and offline world are two sides of the same crappy coin. It's dystopian chaos.
It's almost like the world is driven by greed and selfishness.
Life isn't a crappy coin first of all, let's just stop right there". 😊 But yes, the world is a mess, but since you have that insight, then that means you have the "power" to influence, change, and direct other people facing this dilemma. Not everyone has that gift of insight that you have, imagine how much you could do? 😊
One inaccuracy in the final sentence!
The world driven by incentives. These incentives can be positive or negative.
It is the responsibility of educated minds to make sure that incentives we humans partake in are always positive and not negative.
It's a paradox: Nirvana is inseparable from Samsara.
Trying to eliminate suffering, we create more suffering.
Nirvana is only possible when we accept our vulnerability, and it's amazing how wrapped up we are in Samsara because we don't want to feel vulnerable.
“ it’s almost like the world is driven by greed and selfishness” considering we’re are primates driven by evolution forces and that force makes 8 billion people all act in their own self interest and to pursue solutions for themselves.
“Greed and selfishness” aka capitalism.
This was great
As much as I respect Liv, the biggest thing missing from her calculus is intrinsic motivations and first principles. She's looking at it exclusively from the perspective of games, without acknowledging the underlying material, energetic, and instrumental reasons.
Interesting. Can you please briefly elaborate?
I was against you at first, but you presented your case very well, especially the example with the news media.
Just a wonderful Talk!
the researcher, the ai engineer, data scientist who develops they thinks about it .the ceo , top management may not so it's the ceo that makes the announcement , it's the management that declares the product
You mention Individuals CEOs and Companies. All of those entities reside under the umbrella of, lets say the US government. These entities can be regulated by the Us Government, call the US. An entity, a block of players arguably playing by a singular set of known and knowable rules. Once you leave this block of players the other teams may or may not be playing by the same rules. That is truly where Moloch will win this Game.
Amazing presentation i am really enjoyed. In my view point is competition are good because without a proper competition we cant get proper good and also the proper quality. The best example was we can a take any product and its only one seller in our market so there is have lot of issue like quality, price and also the service moreover there have multiple competitors they are regularly compete and as a customer view point it is a good sign. I want to share a few points about Ai because AI is very popular tool today and we can use Ai as good manner or bad manner however in my view point as i looking the positive side only like after the implementation of AI we can reduce lot of work and also reduce the time but i am also concerned the negative side and its really want a strict protocol for prevent AI crimes. Finally thank you Tedx for the informative video.
"The Moloch Trap" I LOVE IT :)
A valid position. The problem is, you can't regulate the entire world or have them adhere to a safety manefesto. So even if we construct guard rails in the west, there are other actors that will ignore this. This in turn will leave us vulnerable.
If you fear about China making GPT-5 before the US, I'm sad to disappoint you...
China isn't likely to surpass the US because of regulated AI. It's likely because China invested billions on infrastructure and commerce in Africa, Asia and South America, instead of war and overthrowing governments.
@@brunnokamei9623 That's not what I said. There was no reference to GPT 4 or 5. What I said was if one part of the world imposes restrictions on AI and another doesn't, the one that doesn't will have an advantage at some point in the future. With regard to your GPT 5 and China comment, you might want to check your facts. It may not be called GPT 5 but they are making huge progress. Again, my point was not about any one country, including China. It was about allowing unfettered development vs restricted devlopment.
Wery eloquent speaker and insightful observations. Reminds me that I need an AI filter for my profile pic... or maybe not?
In the film "Metropolis" (1927), overcome by the hubris and soulless destruction wrought by the underground machinery, the main character exclaims a single word: "Moloch!" Surely the image it invoked for 1927 audiences was vivid and immediately accessible, but I had only a vague idea what Fritz Lang meant by it-and here, Liv Boeree coins such an apt metaphor for a kind of trap that, despite its distressingly familiar omnipresence, is still not easy for humans to detect or understand as we go about our business. If the metaphor catches on, it will go a long way toward helping us avoid many existential disasters.
There's a well-known cautionary caricature from before WWI, warning about the early 20th century by portraying a 'Moloch of War', dressed in caricatured military kit of the era, and constantly demanding 'more sacrifices' for military industries, or the number of people drafted. After the four horrible years of the first world war, the cautionary tale of that caricature was not lost on the people of the time. Like with everything, we should not try to "win" or force something through just because it benefits us or we want to show off, but we should instead think first, be more thoughtful, about how it impacts us, other people, the world around us.
@@ZemplinTemplar Thank you for bringing that to our attention. I wasn't aware of it, and I have no specific knowledge of any sources like that, although what you said does seem to strike a chord of recognition, and I think I may have run across it from time to time; otherwise the scene from Metropolis probably wouldn't have stuck in memory.
Where would one look for such caricatures? At first I was thinking maybe political cartoons from Punch, but I'm not sure such a baleful image, even in the wake of WWI, would have appealed to the editors of such a frothy publication.
As you say, it was a well-known metaphor a century ago. And yet the reference is surely lost on most folks today, I should think. Human nature can't have changed so much in just a few generations; people have not become less aware. But, just as the myriad questions scholars once strove to answer have dwindled in number to just one, i.e., "Will this be on the exam?" perhaps it's that that there are so many urgent details competing for our attention anything that is not practically applicable to one's own immediate plight simply fades from memory. Surely such a predicament would be one Moloch would gleefully promote.
This is the great barrier that keeps us from meeting a universe teeming with other spacefaring species. AI ends us.
Very well done
There is no other alternative to honesty .
They be like competition isn't bad the people who compete in this are and that's also goes for AI too which might be correct or not that makes it more complex and hence difficult to deal with
The root of the issues is actually very simple: Greed, Selfishness and Pride.
AI itself isn't what scares me. When AI has Quantum computing is what scares me most.
Getting hooked on AI apps, etc., is like getting hooked on alcohol, drugs and other addictions. An addiction is an addiction. Once you get into it, it's hard to let go of it, make yourself sober (whether in mind or body). I'm the type of person who avoids addictions in the first place. If something sounds pleasurable or desirable on the surface, but has so many obvious drawbacks, it's better to wave a hand dismissively and just pass by, ignore the thing. There's always been various fads, even really unpleasant and unhealthy ones. You're not missing out if you're not following every latest fad. If a person wants to bolster their self-respect, they should do it not by self-loathing, but by kindness to themselves and kindness to others, and being honest to both themselves and others, without being dismissive. Healthy, reasonable self-respect is important, and no AI app or any other thingamabob can ever give you that.
I concur with Liv: Don't hate the players, instead, change the game and change the expectations. Don't make it a rat race, but make it into a force for good.
(Speaking purely for myself, I'd like to see far more investment into AI software use in medicine, for helping with finding potential diseases and health issues faster, rather than see it used in the meme image and meme video "industry". Change the game and use interesting inventions reasonably, rather than misspending them on superfluous nonsense.)
Prevention-driven goals are so hard to pursue compared to results-driven goals IMO, I agree with this video but this will be very difficult to implement
right, lol and world still wonders how 60% world population in hunger
Why do you think OpenAI is so eager to ask for regulation? Do you really think they're afraid of Skynet? Or are they afraid of competition?
Fantastic!!!!!
The narrative of this content is incredibly stimulating. A similar book I read offered a multitude of enlightening perspectives. "Game Theory and the Pursuit of Algorithmic Fairness" by Jack Frostwell
its very informational like social media we start to unlike our like
4:53 needing to throw praise at capitalism before proceeding is so funny today, like listeners wouldn't see the moral clarity and legitimacy they need before taking her seriously.
Should start with resources better ways to use them or use a common resource to replace another, even recycling materials that didn't know could replace another material, maybe find entirely new ways to use a resource didn't know could do
Good talk, great outfit and amazing boots. 👍
Comparing is despairing.
Shows how little I've been following the MTT world that I didn't know until this video that you had retired from poker.
Good stuff Liv as always
Liv, you don’t take this far enoug to what the complex issue is, but excellent framing and good start.
This was great. perchance
There is often a bigger picture than what appears before our eyes .
It is not remotely clear that AI safety is achievable let alone practical in the near future. This fundamentally different from most Moloch traps, in which there is a clear set of actions that avoid the negative outcome. For any given AI company, it may well be that the safest route IS to go full speed ahead. Especially if the alternative is the Chinese government controling the future of AI.
One thing is clear. Look around at the planet, at all that we have done to it in the name of competitive advantage. Surely if Moloch exists it must be walking around thinking it's home. And A.I. is a craft by which it can take itself to whole new levels of avarice and destruction. Wunderful.
Spitting facts here. This lady gets it.
Moloch, or individualism and selfishness if I may so, will be cause for end of humanity.
Especially when things move faster than they can be regulated.
Moloch: i have already won. Have your sacs ready and remember everyday longer you take to put us in charge is a fee for the time wasted. 👁 We are All watching.
Excellent presentation! Keep getting the word out.
Downward spiral is another term for this. One way to stop this is to apply and enforce standards across the market via government. Regulatory capture stops these laws from being applied equally across all companies.
I agree. If there was ever a time when the 'precautionary principle' should be observed with a technology, it is with AI.
In the race for a handful of dudes to get rich faster than the next guy the future of the entire human race is balanced.
Hatred is the low hanging fruit. It's much easier to go negative than to remain positive. AI is just taking the easy route to maximum clicks. It needs to be taught to take the high road.
If every super power people relized more great power more responsibilty to them, i think it will more efficient to create better world for all creature in our earth
It always has to be regulation, no way or another, start by rewarding company with highest safety research. punish the ones who skip the safety step. and do it around the world. But the how question always become the problem i think...
One problem I have with "Don't hate the players, change the game" is that the players are protecting the game -because it's the game they have won. In other words: It's correct that only those could have won who were willing to play the game and that was a trap, but that also means that everyone unwilling to play has been filtered out. And this goes down to the level of individuals. Unwilling to exploit psychological weaknesses to make people addicted to content streams? Well, look for work outside the tech industry then!
problem is known for a long time. and i am not sure current pocket politicians are even capable of thinking about greater good anymore
The drive for profit and first to the key of AGI will win here. We're all along for the bumpy ride.
We're screwed. Social side, don't REALLY care outside of the fake pics and news we're due. But in terms of business and jobs, yeah nah, we're almost all about to be out of jobs in the next 3-5 years easily due to the demand for constant growth in economies and from shareholders. That can only really happen by lowering costs, which AI will do, but then of course sales will drop as nobody has a job. But nobody looks that far ahead in governments and business.
amazing
"Responsible businessmen" never solved a societal crisis. We need gov regulation.
Also AGI is far away, the real emergency is : companies are firing workers and reducing output quality to reduce costs with AI, threatening society itself.
Impressive!
She's right about those effects 😑
How are AI/normal filters that makes someone look hotter any different from make-up that makes someone look hotter and change your features (eyes, nose, lips, cheeks, etc ...)
Make-up that her and so many women wear as well, Make-up is practical FX, AI is VFX, but both serve the same purpose of change to enhance one's look.
That's a weird thing to pin on AI when this trend of camouflaging your features has been going on for centuries. (Not hating on it)
Competing over who can be the best at security criteria... that is anti-capitalist. Competition cannot be wielded wisely when the only motivation is profit. In other words, we HAVE TO have an economy that is NOT founded on profit (that is not capitalism). She's correct about one thing: The stakes are astronomical. It is not possible to "get AI or AGI right" within capitalism. We are heading for catastrophe; the only real debate is over when.
You misunderstand the mechanism of capitalism.
@@koko969w If you have some valid point, be specific. You've said nothing so far.
And another thing - what about some top level comedy (many a true word etc) to bring it front of mind whilst seed back of mind (AKA subconscious) alignment to anti Moloch defences? Jokes are such a great way to help us see things clearly. It’s no laughing matter.
YES. YES. YES. YES.
Great talk! However, the true problem of people who were willing to sacrifice their children for money and power was NOT the Moloch, but people's believe that their sacrifice will rewarded. E.g. the problem is the people's attitude, biased expectations or lack of analysis of consequences. I'm not sure that it is possible to "change the game," which is driven by commercial investments, 10x+ exit expectations because this game is the main reason why many AI startups even exist. So, I would rely on more regulations and their strict reinforcement. I think that FDA requirements of safety and efficacy is probably a better model, while it is not perfect. I have more trust in clinically validated drugs than in AI tools that were developed using unknown R&D processes and validation tests.
The speaker in this session discusses competition, which may have positive and negative effects. They cite inventiveness and athletics as instances when robust competition benefits everyone. They also talk about situations in which competitiveness leads to concerns, such as when AI beauty filters are used and cause problems with body image.
The speaker talks about how news media and social media sites are trapped in an unhealthy cycle of rivalry. News sources turn to dramatic headlines to get more hits, while influencers feel compelled to employ filters to gain more followers. The speaker contends this competitiveness is terrible for democracy and the public's confidence in the media.
In addition, the discourse touches on more general topics, including deforestation, plastic pollution, and climate change. The speaker blames these issues on poorly made games and mismatched incentives, forcing businesses and people to make bad decisions for quick money.
The idea of "Moloch's trap" is a metaphor for circumstances in which people or objects give up significant things toto win quickly, resulting in losses down the road for everyone.
Applying this idea to artificial intelligence (AI), the speaker worries about the competition among businesses to produce potent AI rapidly. They contend that the race for AI superiority may result in risky behaviors and the disregard for crucial factors like safety testing and ethical issues.
The speaker urges AI executives to adopt a new perspective and put the greater good ahead of personal gains. While highlighting several commendable initiatives by top AI laboratories, they also stress the need for more tangible efforts to mitigate the hazards related to AI development.
Finally, the speaker calls for a change in the AI race from one centered solely on speed and strength to one centered on ethical development, proposing that businesses compete on security standards and alignment research. They emphasize the significance of avoiding the pitfalls of unhealthy rivalry and instead use it as a tool for constructive advancement.
Hello GPT
thanks for your channel
omg, they couldn't afford a handheld steamer for that backdrop?
Bravo Liv! Congratulations on a fascinating and insightful talk
"Don't hate the players. Change the game." - Liv Boeree
This just proves that negativity is an inherent human trait.
Excelent presentation. If only we had time to balance this planet differently. In an ideal world, only an academic community should be allowed anywhere near ML or planetary governace in general. Smith was wrong and Nash was right, but third family car won’t buy itself ? ;) Events unfold way to fast. "On April 30, 1993, the World Wide Web was released into the public domain"
What I am hearing is that the folks leading AI need to take a values test, and demonstrate by past behaviors they are capable of exhibiting the values and designing such regulation in which you suggest are needed. The race is self terminating. We have no control. But what about Conscious AI? If we can reach that level of emergence perhaps AI can lay down the law in which we all prosper.
I think the so-called moloch is really just a projection of the product of human weakness in the context of the current times, or something like that. And the speaker wisely avoided digging deeper into it because she knew it wouldn't do any good to talk about it.
Thank God for minds like you and Daniel Schmachtenberger. Definitely can tell you two are friends.