My theory is that people got tired of playing high tiers over and over and realised, "Wait... doesn't this game have like... almost 90 characters in it?"
Nah, since most of these players were already playing them for a while. These character specialists are just now starting to close the gap between skill and character ability
Idk if that's true. Most people who played these characters have played them since release or for ages. I think the general skill level of top players is just way closer than before
@@illford Definitely. The top players still play High tier characters. It's just that some people who play mid tiers are getting to that point of skill that Top tier players are already at.
@@tuoljg Mkleo is the player who has won a major tournament with the lowest character at the first "official" smash list. It was Corrin at Delfino Maza 2022.
The corrin rennaissance is so funny because Neo and Shadic are widely (and deservedly) renowned, that everyone forgot Ly beat Sparg0 with Corrin so much corrin
Probably cant win a major simply because the top 10 are too strong to consistently beat. It doesnt really matter what character you play. In order for corrin to win a major, a corrin player would have to beat like 3-4 top 10 players in a row, which just isnt happening. Maybe beating 1 or 2 of them can happen, but beating 3-4+ as well as all the other top 20/30/40 etc players is just too tough. Like, Shadic got 4th at LMMM, and yet he still needed to beat Dabuz, Sparg0, and Sonix twice to actually win. And he had already beaten top 10 players before even losing to Dabuz, and then Sparg0/Sonix are both top 3. When Neo lost at Battle of BC, same kinda thing. he got 5th which was insane, and he was still several sets off from actually winning the event. Even if he didnt choke vs Acola and won that, he still would have only been WF. That was a minimum of 2 more sets he had to win, and if he lost WF, then 3. Its just insanely rare for anyone who isnt a top 10 player to win majors. And when they do, its like a top 20 player winning it. And even then, the people USUALLY winning majors are like the top 5. Most majors are won by like, Acola, Sparg0, Sonix, Miya, and Gluto. Only a handful are won by the other top 10 players like tweek or riddles, and then even fewer by the top 15-20s.
Dude mkleo beat glutonny, spargo in grand final and other top players i cant remember when he won a tourney going corrin, then he dropped the character i dont know why, dont know if it counts as a major tbf@@eragon78
It also helps that sometimes Mid or even Low tier characters have some high or top tier match ups that they just clobber. Take Kirby for example. Kirby has a great match up into Kazuya, Fox, and Palu because of his small size and ability to box super effectively.
He also does really great against Squirtle but not against Ivysaur or Charizard, so PT players that don't know this and stick to their usual gameplan get destroyed, likewise there are other top tiers that only win against him if they have a more specific game plan
and Lucas has a solid matchup into Steve and Sonic, and neutralizes a good bit of Snake and Samus' gameplan - with Steve, his back air is one of 2 moves in the game that can consistently punish minecart off stage - If you watch Regalo in SSC 2022, both his matches against steve, first stock was minecart punish (I believe the other one is one of Yoshi's aerials, and mario F-air comes close too, but you only have 1 frame leeway, so it's not that consistent. Lucas' ftilt can also destroy blocks and PK fire can contest further, along with freeze going over 2 high walls)
I disagree. Fox is extremely fast for Kirby, especially with that up smash. Kazuya is way too powerful for Kirby with his input moves and armor. Kills him very easily. Palutena can zone Kirby so hard it's not even funny This is from a Kirby main
I think another big piece of the puzzle is that mid and low tier mains have the play top tiers all the time so they get a lot more practice playing against the top tiers relative to how much practice the top tier player has. Plus when you have to outplay your opponent simply because their character is better you get better at adapting because you have to or you simply lose
This is exactly it, I think. There's 80+ fighters in SSBU. It's astronomically impossible for the more talented (or smartest) players to know every single fighter's win conditions on a personal technical level. Most of their brain power has to be used to optimize their fighter pick and adapt in microseconds playing on stage. So they use the remaining brain power on conditioning themselves on the most used matchups. Which is NOT to say it's any different than players who pick "low-tier trash" to compete, but for such players... that's the beauty of it: they optimize their pick but they know they have an advantage in the form of troves of telecasted content showing the most over-used/OP fighters being under the most excessive microscope too. The other player doesn't.
I've still yet to meet a player who understands that PK Freeze isn't a kill move, it's for baiting bad defensive options. G&W Players hate this one simple trick!
True, I always ear everywhere that Joker is a counter match-up to my Robin, but truth be told, I have only fought a single joker up to this day who could actually keep up with me and win.
I think Piranha Plant also deserves a mention in this topic, especially when Lucky won a pretty stacked tournament this year, while also causing some big upsets in other tournaments and finishing pretty high quite a lot of times.
Piranha plant does have some wacky stuff, but he's one of the few characters that just feels really bad to play. Obviously this is only my experience but every move besides ptooie and up smash are really bad, have bad startup, are punishable, and don't do a whole lot of damage. Plus his mobility is bad. This is coming from someone who finds Dedede actually playable
Jab is a frame 2 jab, it's gentleman hitbox can setup tech chases while the rapid jab racks up alot of damage. F-tilt is a good get off me tool while it's a decent kill move. D-tilt is a good combo starter and the same goes for up-tilt while up-tilt can also kill. F-smash is a really strong kill move while D-smash is a also a good kill move that can 2 frame as well. Side b is a good conditioning tool while it's also possible to trap people inside of it. Down b is maybe it's worst move but plant can still use it to go through projectiles and stall in the air with it aswell, you can also let the attack come out early to trick people. Up b is a rerally good recovery move and in combination with it's other specials that can stall in the air, plant has a lot more recovery options than people realise. Nair is a decent attack that can dragdown opponents. Fair is a good move to get people off stage with and is a decent edgeguarding move as well. Bair is plant's strongest airial. Dair is a decent spike while it can also beused as a kill setup into up smash (like pyra can as well). Up air is a combo starter, a combo extender and a kill move. All of plant's grabs can do massive damage in combination with the poison breath, D-trhow is a combo starter. F-throw is useful to get people off stage and it's collateral hitbox can be good in 2vs1 situations, while back throw and up throw are both kill moves. @@stephenrichter8940
I mean it's not Tekken 7 balance. You're not going to see Ganondorf winning a major twice. But it is pretty good and arguably the best balance for the smash game.
I don’t keep up with the scene but pre patch Leroy pretty much took over the game and 7 of them were at evo Japan Even with Steve the game is still balanced without anymore patches and he’s not a requirement to play
@@janswhatsupdoc Yes pre patch Leroy is ridiculous. The thing about Tekken is that their Top Tier is through the roof bonkers. Character like Marduk for example literally have no bad MU. but their Low is still playable. The reason why I mention Ganondorf winning twice is because In Tekken 7 two of the worst characters actually won a major. 2018 Panda the worst character in the game won TWT finals. It happens again this year. Eddy Gordo the worst character right now won a major in UK. While in Smash we can't even have mid tier like Chrom won a major.
I have been playing Corrin since 2019 At the time the character was bottom 10 in most tierlists and most people didn't know where to put them because they were so rare in tournament The character didnt get any crazy buffs as Falcon or Ike, only got some useful buffs in 8.0.0, but rose due simply to optimisation and work The character is still fairly underrepresented at a mid to high level play, but the top players simply put the efforts to go even further As well as the overall skill level raising with time
Dude i just picked up bowser jr. I wanted a character with a good item mechanic. Sure his item is slow but seeing what you can do too mess with your opponents rhythm with a really good neutral when i get an edge guard as opposed to my normally lackluster neutral. I feel like mid tiers have nieches that other characters dont show. Their power level changes based on the situation instead of simply having the same baseline options the entire time. I love mid tiers.
Mechakoopa is insanely underrated -It gives you good stage control -Decent edgeguarding -Nasty combo's -Item, items are always gonna be somewhat useful -Lastly its insanely fun to use imo, Bowser Jr is my second most used character and Mechakoopa is like 50% the reason i play him. It has endless setups and and combo's and thats what i love about it, its super unique and my personal favorite move in the entire game
@@Matanumi Bowser Jr has an easier learning curve, but Banjo has more speed and tools. Banjo needs to be patient, because Banjo Tooie boss fights are about running away from the boss till they expose a weakpoint.
People who didn’t grow up playing 90’s- 00’s fighting game do not know what a real “bad” character look like. Even the absolute worst matchup in a modern fighting game is winnable. Some of these modern 8-2 matchups would be considered like a 6-5 at worst in an old game.
This ties into what I’ve always believed. The greatest weapon in this game is the unexpected. Catching your opponent off guard has led to almost all upsets and it’s the biggest X factor on top players. Mental warfare is a huge part of competitive play and the unexpected can be a really good weapon to demoralize your opponent.
I understand the sentiment, but the other questions that could be pull off is that some of these characters might not be mid tier at all. Corrin for example is like the poster child of mid tier character. And yet this year SHADIC and Neo making Corrin become the FE rep with the best results. I know people will point out results isn't everything. Yet, at the same time nobody think Steve is top 1 until Acola and Onin winning major left and right. My point is that don't take Tier list too seriously. It can be used as guidelines but honestly just pick character that you enjoy playing.
@@marlinmurrell620 I think Corrin might actually be Top Tier. Not because of the buff necessarily but mostly because of how the meta shifted this past few years. Muteace in his latest tier list put her around 24th. And if you think that egregious Tea put Corrin in the top 15th.
@@Amaling blanket statements like this have no use. Marth isnt just worse lucina. He actually has certain mus that are better for him than lucina like minmin and donkey kong. regardless of mu based talk marth also has the potential to be better due to having real confirms into his tipper that are just underlooked by a vast majority of the playerbase. Essentially lucina is only "better" because she takes a lot less work to be good than marth does, but being easy doesnt mean being better imo. Marth has all the same movement and frame data as lucina which already makes him insanely good. I cant wait to see a marth main show everyone what the character is really capable of in the coming years.
@@Amalingbad take the reason lucina is considered to be better than marth is due to her consistency but if you were able to find a player who could achive that level of consistency on marth while getting value through his tippers and such marth could surpass lucina
I hate this, but... Marth is done for. I've been a Marth believer for a very long time, especially after his buffs. I mean realistically, he is very good now. Exact same frame data as Lucina but with better kill power, a scarier punish game, and better combos/strings thanks to sours. I've had a lot of faith in Marth mains such as Ignaize, Stretch, and Riseazu... then it happened. One by one, each player dropped Marth or are no-shows. Ignaize has been playing Lucina more and more each tournament... Kreeg is a no-show and doesn't go far in majors, Stretch said he's retiring from Smash and is moving on, and MKLeo seems to not want to play Marth even though he's very good with him. Marth is done, man. Nobody is playing him. Some people say to just watch the older smash titles if I want to see a good Marth winning, but it isn't the same. I love Ultimate far more... I wanted to see Marth shine. I couldn't win anything with him so I hoped maybe the better Marth players could do it someday... I was very, very wrong. He's done guys. He's gonna go lower on the tier lists for sure. I won't be surprised if they slapped him in D tier on the official list. Dude has zero results. Go ahead and roast me for believing in this character for so long...
@@ilovepotions9576 this is just sad to read lmao I don’t know I feel like I’ve seen so many cheese set-ups and early kills from I believe Ignaize, if he can find a way to land them consistently you never know
As someone who isn't solo viable with a low tier, I'm still working hard to make that character viable in my eyes. As someone who mains Isabelle in the last 5 years, I wasn't consider a serious player because of her, so I have Joker, a top tier character, to balance out a lot of my MUs at the time. As of now, I'm starting to see that Isabelle CAN handle top tier characters alongside swordies if spaced right and catching bad habits. Joker is still viable to me but now he's only for emergencies in case I need him. Bottom to Mid tier characters are on the rise because we all see potential in our characters and we want to show our results. I'm consider a decent high seed player in my region and hoping I go far in my first supermajor soon.
Day 1000 of asking vars to make a “why nobody but peanut plays little Mac” The days grow short, the wind grows cold, and winter is coming. But I shall stand vigilant, and strong, for my mission is important to the fate of my family line.
9:17 THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! Soooo many times I hear people say that people playing campy and or defensive “Aren’t playing the game” like the game was built to have only a rush-down play-style and doing anything outside of that is cheating or cowardly. Come on now. At this point you’d be braver to camp someone out for an entire match just because of the spite that would be thrown your way for playing the game “wrong” This is part of what gets the Smash community such a bad rap.
Camping means you don't have to read or call out as hard/often. It's an inherently and objectively less skill-intensive play style that rewards much more than it feels like it should. Campers actively try to avoid the skill intensive act of precise spacing. That's why you get rightfully dragged for being a camper, you are afraid to engage because you aren't as confident in your spacing and reading abilities.
@@Visual217 that's dumb lol. You camp because if you *do* engage, you can lose a stock. Not every character has godlike approach options. Some characters benefit a lot more from camping because they'd get blown up otherwise. Miya is a great example of a player who *will* blow you up with Game and Watch. If I took a stock from him, I'd camp the crap out of that slow character and let Miya do the approaching. That's actually how you should play the MU and the same can be said for a lot of characters. When you are up a stock you should know the vibes 🏕 ⬆️
Can we PLEASE stop calling Corrin mid. Those aerials are huge disjoints that combo (up air kills). She has footstool Dair OOS, she can ledge trap, she has consistent killing options, great burst range, and better ground speed than freaking Wolf. Her recovery is better than most "top tiers" we see as well. Corrin is far from mid tier and it's time for the community to admit that they were wrong about her.
I agree with this so many people underrated low tiers and mid tier I wish more people mained mid tiers man every time I go up against someone it’s always either a top tier or high tier character I think if most people back then when ultimate came out should’ve took into consideration the fact that mid tiers or low tiers can still win majors it will just be hard. Honestly speaking I don’t think there should be another smash game, this is the best smash game we’ve got in so many years and I thank Sakurai for his hard efforts in making this game balanced
I think it's both. It is near impossible to be prepared against 80 characters in a game where you aren't able to get good practice online. And in general unpopular characters have plenty of untapped potential that people haven't realized yet. Japan's meta and tier opinions are significantly different from NA's for example, due to there people being really good pilots of underrepresented characters that open the minds of others.
I feel like Link has a lot of untapped potential. He's just not that easy to pick up because of all the bomb tech you have to learn, but in the right hands he could get results
I feel like people who main mid tiers are much scarier than people who main high or top tiers. These people play the game enough to know the vulnerabilities against most top tier characters and are more experienced. I would honestly be more scared at a professional Rosa, Corrin, Lucas, or Mewtwo than most of the high or top tiers since they are balanced through their win conditions. And since mid tier players know how to get those win conditions off, it’s much more intimidating.
God I love this channel so much. This is exacty what I've been saying about why this game is so balanced compared to the rest. Like not just the feeling, but the actual imperical data-based reason. They did very well designing the characters this time. The characters have win conditions that are (mostly) cohesive enough to make it work well enough to force opponents into *some* losing scenario. It's so cool looking at the kits and how they were made. Again, balance is not perfect and not all kits are created equal, but the design is there. Knowing what your character wants to do matters now more than ever, since each one now has to compete against literally 70+ other characters. It's so good.
I play mostly mid and low tiers myself, so I know how some match-ups can be turned on their head given the right conditions. Characters like Mewtwo and Lucario, for instance, could quickly rise to higher tiers if players like Gachipi and Remrin can push them far enough.
I think there is also a big flaw in the way the community view character strengths in ultimate. A character like Pit for exemple has theoretically all the tools he needs to win any tournaments, and no fundamental flaws preventing him to do so. Same goes for Corrin, Inlking, Marth, ... they all have major qualities that can give them a decent math up chart overall and don't have any flaw major enough to make them "not solo viable", sure they have some bad matchups, but so does every character in ultimate. The only reason why these characters are seen as mid tiers is only because they are either outclassed, unimpressive or unpopular. But when it comes to winning tournament, non of these are a factor.
Making a tier list for this game is extremely difficult. At least when trying to make it as accurate as possible. Because this meta is always changing. Definitely much quicker than Smash 4.
I agree fully. Given the internet's obsession with tier lists, ranking, and asking "what option is best", people lose sight of the fact that they are arguing over the last 0.5% of optimization. Sure, maybe one character's bair is marginally better than another's, but that is only a slight advantage. Playing a good character doesn't make you a good player. A character being strong doesn't mean they will always win. To borrow a joke from a common colloquialism, it isn't the size that matters, it's how you use it.
I honestly think tiers and match-ups are less important than comfort. Ultimate is not just a game where you can counterpick your opponent's character and farm free wins.
Everyone seems like they're trying to find the "20XX" of their character. It's like a revolt to the final meta of the game and people don't want that to be the case
I think it has to do with the fact a lot of top tier players aren't used to fighting mid tier characters being played at a high level. Fully optimized mid tier characters can do more damage than ppl are prepared for
Vars, I love your videos, but I need you to get a recording mic that biases towards higher frequencies or to start EQ-ing your voice with a high sibilance boost. It sounds like you're talking through a sock which makes difficult to understand you.
i find this video incredibly interesting because as of this year and the last few years as well, melee has had its own mid tier resurgence, with a bunch of great donkey kong, samus, dr mario, etc representation at a high level. it’s interesting to see the pandemic affected both communities (despite melee being much older)
As the Ice Climbers are among my favourite characters, I'm super happy that they're rising up. Sooner or later, they'll be considered among high-tier one day (even though no one plays them like you said in "Why no one plays Ice Climbers")... believe it or not.
I still feel that Incineroar is one of the ugliest pokemon ever made, but I LOVE that people are now finding that he's good. He's so sloooooooow lol. High tiers matter until you go up against that one madman who plays Duck Hunt. I think the character I enjoy playing most is Donkey Kong, obviously not top tier. If I ever did try to go to tournaments, I'd probably still play him.
I think another HUGE reason lower tier characters can see a lot of success is by virtue of how many characters are in this game. In a game like melee, with a much smaller cast, even though you don't see a lot of those low tier characters often, its likely a lot of top players are somewhat familiar with them. In this game with over 70 characters its increadibly hard, if not impossible for even top level players to familarize themselves with each matchup. So when someone does pick some random low tier like Bowser Jr. that matchup checking is way more effective
I think this game is very balanced and well made. The worst matchup spread is probably only about 7/3 as opposed to the 10/0 and 9/1 mentality of top to bottom in melee. It’s all about how you play the character
i still dont fully understand why people consider minmin, a relatively straightforward and honest character, is gimmicky. shes gonna try to hit you, she has range, get in close and she struggles, her disadvantage is rough, is the gimmick just that she can hit from a distance? just that she can walk while tilting? that’s not what i would consider “gimmicky”
Honestly I agree with the official tier list. At least from what I seen it seems to make a lot of sense. With a roster as huge as this one I feel like having the tier list as a rough estimate of the character’s viability is totally fine. I also don’t hear any guidelines of people saying solo maining B and lower is impractical, but if people do say that, then that logic would be flawed.
Let your METAs SIMMER. Melee has had zero updates since release and has changed more than most any game at all relative to changes every 3 months to no changes over 20 years
The thing about tier lists is that they're just reflective about how fighters fare in the current meta doing their current meta things. The fact that tier lists change over time with some characters climbing fairly high goes to show all you have to do is to find your flow with your character. If it presents tools and a style that you can legitimately take advantage of with enough skill, tier lists are irrelevant.
This is something I was thinking about yesterday. Corrin, Incineroar and Wii Fit are probably still B/C-tier characters relatively, but characters in that range are probably more solid than we give them credit for.
@@Eggss_B Low high-tier I'd say (which in this game is still "really good" as you said.) I was making a more general point about how you can get great results with a lot of characters considered mid-tier.
Tiers in smash are really weird. I feel like they're more of an indicator of how easy the mental load is going to be in the fight. The higher tier you pick, the more your opponent has to think and know how to play against, if he plays a lower tier. They're not really showing how strong a character can be. I think a good example is Corrin, if you know the matchup you can fight against anyone, but if not you're crushed.
I don't agree, the mental load is far greater when I'm Fighting an heavy that Can kill me at 40 than when I'm fighting a casual swordfighter like lucina
@@djevebran2432 That's a good point, but I think it comes more from "fear" and/or a bad matchup. It's especially the case with heavies or touch of death character. They can kill you really so you are scared, the more you're scared or tensed, the more you're prone to panic, make a mistake and die. But once you know the matchup what can kill you and how to avoid it, the scare factor diminish, and it's less of an issue. Which makes the match more about how hard it is to find your win condition. That's still a very good point in low and mid level games though. In high level games, the fear factor is almost non-existent which is the level assumed when making a tier list.
@@krashderipe3112 "if you have to know what they can kill you with, and pretty much every way they can use them, most of the situations" is WIDE. And, knowing that as you know them, your opponent is gonna try to make you fall in situations you didn't know and 50/50s where most options you have can be responded by one or multiple options that can either kill you or repeat, until they can consistently read/react to you or you finally accomplish your win condition. What you said would imply that heavy and touch of death character would perform very poorly in competitive smash Bros, but we can see that : Kazuya, Luigi, Ice Climbers and Incineroar are performing really well. I do not agree with you, and I truly believe that fear factor still exists at higher levels of play (sometimes even more because of stakes) And the mental charge when fighting heavies is way heavier than non-gimmicky top tiers (Cloud, Lucina, Corrin, and so on)
@@djevebran2432 I’d say G&W has a very high fear factor too given that most characters should flat out never approach him unless they absolutely have to.
I sincerely believe that skyjay plays incineroar as perfectly as a human can play him and the only reason he loses is because of the limitations of the character. Man is insane.
This is why I love seeing mid to low tier mains. It’s so fun and/or interesting to see what they can pull off with their character when the conditions are right.
As a Pittoo main since Smash 4, what I like about mid-tiers are the unique options they possess and the niche they have. Example, Pit’s combo and edgeguarding games are pretty good, in addition to his 4 jumps and down B shields. Balanced, yet specialized just enough.
The real Corrin issue is honestly getting people over the fact that they were an absolutely unwelcome addition to the roster, only rivaled by Dark/Black (Shit) Pit in 4 and possibly Byleth almost exclusively in Ultimate. Never underestimate the power of poor first impressions. Even now, when talking about roster cuts, Corrin and Shitty Pitty are the top 2 fans wanted discarded or to unconsidered for the next game. Their only rivals are: Byleth (Corrin 2.0 situation really), OG shill pick Roy (Chrom too by association), Wolf (Starfox hasn’t 3 good games- he wasn’t even popular enough to come back in 4), Pichu, Dr. Mario, Lucas (Mother is finished and 2 representatives was pushing it in Brawl), and Palutena (biggest do nothing bitch on the roster: 37 years 3 meager games, series is barely a footnote to Nintendo, sits her ass out of 2/3’s of her own games, and the concept to shill her in is long dead and not returning. Isabelle and Pauline actually DO SHIT as NPCs in their games.)
I think the next smash game will do an overhaul and put all the characters ppl loved, including all the dream picks ppl have been asking for. No telling how smash 6 will go, but there’s a high chance corrin and a lot of questionable character choices will be gone.
As a K Rool main I can confirm that there is a lot more potential than people give you credit for. I can literally just camp people out and make them come to me, there are very few fighters that it doesn’t work on. Sure, I won’t be winning against Mario or Min Min because they just juggle me and I do not land, but against characters like Roy or Kazuya I actually have a pretty decent kit to deal with them! You can keep distance and then use a reflect or belly armor to leave them vulnerable long enough to put them in an absolutely nasty combo, then you can get a really hype victory or a decent lead on them and they’ll still likely struggle to get close till you want them close. And while I’m at it there is even lower characters that I’ve done well at tournaments with like Piranha Plant, who is a ledge guarding champion with decent kill confirms, but he lacks very many decent combos. With plant you play range and air, given the best moves in its arsenal are ranged and work in the air. Plant is also a heavyweight with a scary smash attack. It isn’t a good character, I will not even try to argue for plant’s viability, but it is at least a little decent if you practice way more than you should with plant. Now admittedly my secondary is a high tier though, I second Cloud and I see massive success with him, I play a little bit of Kazuya and Sora and see decent success, but still I main a low tier and it’s my highest win rate. Nobody really expects some of what K Rool can pull off, he tanks most things for a long time and as long as you can control where you want to control he is genuinely scary in certain situations.
I’m gonna have to stop you and say Roy and Kazuya are characters that can exploit K Rool really easily. Just because you’re matched up with players that don’t know how to deal with K Rool doesn’t mean he has much potential. He’s a matchup check, when someone learns how to fight him he’s screwed. Crown is decent but your blunderbuss isn’t very useful as a projectile. I play Roy, and find K Rools to be highly susceptible to shenanigans that are tighter on other characters. You can die to a jab fsmash around 60 dependent on stage placement and belly armor isn’t hugely threatening. He has too much lag on his moves.
Considering melee is 20 years old, with a roster less than half the size of Ultimate, and right now we’re seeing huge meta upsets to this day; I’m not surprised. Ultimate is a young game overall; maybe eventually it’ll die out and we’ll lose progress; but if ultimate lasts for 20 years we’ll still see new metas being figured out
Low tiers will always have this one advantage if nothing else: people aren't used to playing against them. This is the same advantage lefties have in sports. When I was young my brother entered a karate tournament. As we spared against each other, I would often beat him, but in the tournament when we played against other people, he got first and I got last. Because I was used to fighting him (a lefty), I didn't know how to fight right-handed people, but nobody else in the tournament knew how to fight him because he was left handed.
I honestly think Robin could be B- tier looking at his moveset alone. Unfortunately his matchup spread is part of why I’m hesitant to really advocate for this - he loses to nearly all rushdowns, struggles against characters with reflectors (though Robin doesn’t live and die on projectiles, due to still being a swordie, it’s definitely tougher for him without them), and struggles hard against characters who can edgeguard well, due to his resource reliance for his Up B. I mainly play Joker, but I invest time in Robin too because I feel like I can figure something out with the guy(or girl). I’m still not the greatest, and I know I’m not the first person to play around with him, but finding things like late hit landing Levin Up Air (say that 5 times fast) into Levin Back Air on my own was more satisfying to me than learning a Joker combo from a UA-cam video.
I’m not surprised that Icies are getting some players. As the skill cap gets higher, characters previously thought “too unrealistic for top level” are getting their time to shine. Can’t wait for Marth to outrank Lucina in a couple years.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I'd imagine one of the big reasons for this is that when 99% of high level games are between a relatively small pool of top tiers, then the pros get less practice in against the good but less viable fighters. Funnily enough, different fighters fight... Differently... Knowing how to play against Kazuya doesn't mean you can beat the other matchups. If you're a top player then surely you _know_ the matchups, but do you know them as well as the ones that you've been constantly smashing your face into for the umpteenth time? Probably not. Never underestimate the unexpected. Edit: You brought up League win rates, but those are still heavily flawed for various reasons. Most importantly is that a lot of these websites separate win rates by rank, and what is good at a low level is very much different from what is good at a high level. You don't ever see different tier lists for different levels of play in Smash, but for League it's the norm. You might think that Nidalee is an excellent Jungler to learn because she's got a 51% win rate in masters+, but she has a staggering 45% win rate in bronze because she's one of the hardest champions to play. Garen is notoriously the opposite of this, with a 48% win rate in masters+ and a motherf***ing 54.8% win rate in bronze. He goes from a C tier champion to an S+ champion depending on rank. If you're a newer player or even someone who just needs to learn better fundamentals, then you're far better off playing Annie or Malphite instead of Azir or Irelia. League is a game with an insanely steep learning curve, fundamentals are 100% key, don't overwhelm yourself by picking a champion with ten different skill shots that require a degree in geometry to land. Secondly, sometimes a champion is viable only when played in a very specific way, which is only utilised by a couple of high level players. It's been a few years since I've played but this was the case with roaming support Singed. It was a very effective strategy, but the low number of people utilising it made the win rate unrepresentative of Singed's true potential. Same goes for anything else that's off meta enough to get you flamed for trying it. Lastly, certain champions end up with a diluted win rate based on the kinds of people who like to play them. Zed is a perfect example. He's flashy, and he's known for having some very difficult combos, which means egotistical tryhards who think they're better than they really are like to play him. No offence to any Zed mains out there, this is just a trend myself and others have noticed over a decade of playing the game. Other champions that suffer from this effect include Yasuo, Riven, Akali, Qiyana, Lee Sin, and Vayne. "Vaynespotting" is actually derived from this, where you add up points whenever your ADC "Vaynes out," multiplied by what they did, how they did it, and who they blamed in chat afterwards.
Louisiana is an obscure state with a bunch of low tiers. Some of the best players in the state are a DeDeDe main and a k rool main (51spitfire and KirbyKid/Lukewarm). I believe these low and mid tiers have just an underdeveloped meta and they can most definitely use their win conditions to their advantage to trip up any given smasher
I’ve been a Link main since 64. So even in locals I haven’t been able to win a single tournament, the skill gap and bad moves that always come with Link has been abysmal compared to s tiers, and now I can finally have a decent chance. Maybe is because the training of all the games over the years but I finally have at least som tools to defend myself from the low iq moves that most of s tiers have. Yet it’s still hard, like come on steve 0 to deaths over one small mistake are bs or god forbid he uses the knock back cancel glitch.
It's like a league. I am shaco main and you guys will never be able to guess how many tricks shaco can have. For ult only: Fake clone, wall jumping clone, insta bomb clone, shield clone, cloning in reverse direction, bait clone, jungling clone(usefulfor dragons), etc
I think it has a lot to do with the surprise factor. Lack of match up knowledge can cause a loss. But if a mid/low tier get's played more often, I think eventually the hype will subside on it's own when people get used to the match up. Sometimes however, it seems a character was more of hidden "gem" than a mid/low tier and then they stay and get eventually ranked higher. I think game and watch is a good example of that.
the middle ground is the center of everything including the high ground and the low ground. they cannot exist if the middle one didn’t either. that’s why empty air is boring.
I like the way you explain things. Will you do a fundies playlist, please? Maybe leading into more advanced play, too? Be nice to have that stuff in one place. Have loved smash bros since 64 and I noticed some of my friends getting back into it, but I been at the same level of play for a while now. Not a bad place, just not reaching that next level. Sorta just pick a character I like and go for it. Been maining Cloud since he joined the roster and he fits my "brawl and figure it out along the way" playstyle very well lol.
My theory is that people got tired of playing high tiers over and over and realised, "Wait... doesn't this game have like... almost 90 characters in it?"
Nah, since most of these players were already playing them for a while. These character specialists are just now starting to close the gap between skill and character ability
But hey, that's just a theory. A GAME THEORY!
Idk if that's true. Most people who played these characters have played them since release or for ages. I think the general skill level of top players is just way closer than before
@@illford Definitely. The top players still play High tier characters. It's just that some people who play mid tiers are getting to that point of skill that Top tier players are already at.
We're talking about tournament players. Professionals. They aren't concerned with being tired of a character, they're concerned with wins.
Honesty Neo and Shadic have just absolutely flipped the script on Corrin as a character, hope to see one win a major sometime.
mkleo did it first with corrin
@@tuoljg Mkleo is the player who has won a major tournament with the lowest character at the first "official" smash list. It was Corrin at Delfino Maza 2022.
The corrin rennaissance is so funny because Neo and Shadic are widely (and deservedly) renowned, that everyone forgot Ly beat Sparg0 with Corrin
so much corrin
Probably cant win a major simply because the top 10 are too strong to consistently beat. It doesnt really matter what character you play.
In order for corrin to win a major, a corrin player would have to beat like 3-4 top 10 players in a row, which just isnt happening. Maybe beating 1 or 2 of them can happen, but beating 3-4+ as well as all the other top 20/30/40 etc players is just too tough.
Like, Shadic got 4th at LMMM, and yet he still needed to beat Dabuz, Sparg0, and Sonix twice to actually win. And he had already beaten top 10 players before even losing to Dabuz, and then Sparg0/Sonix are both top 3.
When Neo lost at Battle of BC, same kinda thing. he got 5th which was insane, and he was still several sets off from actually winning the event. Even if he didnt choke vs Acola and won that, he still would have only been WF. That was a minimum of 2 more sets he had to win, and if he lost WF, then 3.
Its just insanely rare for anyone who isnt a top 10 player to win majors. And when they do, its like a top 20 player winning it. And even then, the people USUALLY winning majors are like the top 5. Most majors are won by like, Acola, Sparg0, Sonix, Miya, and Gluto. Only a handful are won by the other top 10 players like tweek or riddles, and then even fewer by the top 15-20s.
Dude mkleo beat glutonny, spargo in grand final and other top players i cant remember when he won a tourney going corrin, then he dropped the character i dont know why, dont know if it counts as a major tbf@@eragon78
It also helps that sometimes Mid or even Low tier characters have some high or top tier match ups that they just clobber. Take Kirby for example. Kirby has a great match up into Kazuya, Fox, and Palu because of his small size and ability to box super effectively.
He also does really great against Squirtle but not against Ivysaur or Charizard, so PT players that don't know this and stick to their usual gameplan get destroyed, likewise there are other top tiers that only win against him if they have a more specific game plan
What about against ROB?
@@pranavmahendran5982range diff and Rob’s huge hit boxes hit him reliably
and Lucas has a solid matchup into Steve and Sonic, and neutralizes a good bit of Snake and Samus' gameplan - with Steve, his back air is one of 2 moves in the game that can consistently punish minecart off stage - If you watch Regalo in SSC 2022, both his matches against steve, first stock was minecart punish (I believe the other one is one of Yoshi's aerials, and mario F-air comes close too, but you only have 1 frame leeway, so it's not that consistent. Lucas' ftilt can also destroy blocks and PK fire can contest further, along with freeze going over 2 high walls)
I disagree.
Fox is extremely fast for Kirby, especially with that up smash.
Kazuya is way too powerful for Kirby with his input moves and armor. Kills him very easily.
Palutena can zone Kirby so hard it's not even funny
This is from a Kirby main
I think another big piece of the puzzle is that mid and low tier mains have the play top tiers all the time so they get a lot more practice playing against the top tiers relative to how much practice the top tier player has. Plus when you have to outplay your opponent simply because their character is better you get better at adapting because you have to or you simply lose
This is exactly it, I think.
There's 80+ fighters in SSBU. It's astronomically impossible for the more talented (or smartest) players to know every single fighter's win conditions on a personal technical level.
Most of their brain power has to be used to optimize their fighter pick and adapt in microseconds playing on stage. So they use the remaining brain power on conditioning themselves on the most used matchups.
Which is NOT to say it's any different than players who pick "low-tier trash" to compete, but for such players... that's the beauty of it: they optimize their pick but they know they have an advantage in the form of troves of telecasted content showing the most over-used/OP fighters being under the most excessive microscope too. The other player doesn't.
Yeah he says it in the video
I've still yet to meet a player who understands that PK Freeze isn't a kill move, it's for baiting bad defensive options. G&W Players hate this one simple trick!
True, I always ear everywhere that Joker is a counter match-up to my Robin, but truth be told, I have only fought a single joker up to this day who could actually keep up with me and win.
"Mid Tier" are characters that have untapped potential. It's up to the player to raise them up.
"Mid Tier" in this game is just high tier
I think Piranha Plant also deserves a mention in this topic, especially when Lucky won a pretty stacked tournament this year, while also causing some big upsets in other tournaments and finishing pretty high quite a lot of times.
Piranha plant does have some wacky stuff, but he's one of the few characters that just feels really bad to play. Obviously this is only my experience but every move besides ptooie and up smash are really bad, have bad startup, are punishable, and don't do a whole lot of damage. Plus his mobility is bad. This is coming from someone who finds Dedede actually playable
Jab is a frame 2 jab, it's gentleman hitbox can setup tech chases while the rapid jab racks up alot of damage. F-tilt is a good get off me tool while it's a decent kill move. D-tilt is a good combo starter and the same goes for up-tilt while up-tilt can also kill. F-smash is a really strong kill move while D-smash is a also a good kill move that can 2 frame as well. Side b is a good conditioning tool while it's also possible to trap people inside of it. Down b is maybe it's worst move but plant can still use it to go through projectiles and stall in the air with it aswell, you can also let the attack come out early to trick people. Up b is a rerally good recovery move and in combination with it's other specials that can stall in the air, plant has a lot more recovery options than people realise. Nair is a decent attack that can dragdown opponents. Fair is a good move to get people off stage with and is a decent edgeguarding move as well. Bair is plant's strongest airial. Dair is a decent spike while it can also beused as a kill setup into up smash (like pyra can as well). Up air is a combo starter, a combo extender and a kill move. All of plant's grabs can do massive damage in combination with the poison breath, D-trhow is a combo starter. F-throw is useful to get people off stage and it's collateral hitbox can be good in 2vs1 situations, while back throw and up throw are both kill moves. @@stephenrichter8940
The fact that Sakurai created a roster with almost 100 characters and the game is still this balanced even after no more patches is still impressive
I mean it's not Tekken 7 balance. You're not going to see Ganondorf winning a major twice. But it is pretty good and arguably the best balance for the smash game.
I don’t keep up with the scene but pre patch Leroy pretty much took over the game and 7 of them were at evo Japan
Even with Steve the game is still balanced without anymore patches and he’s not a requirement to play
@@janswhatsupdoc Yes pre patch Leroy is ridiculous. The thing about Tekken is that their Top Tier is through the roof bonkers. Character like Marduk for example literally have no bad MU. but their Low is still playable. The reason why I mention Ganondorf winning twice is because In Tekken 7 two of the worst characters actually won a major.
2018 Panda the worst character in the game won TWT finals. It happens again this year. Eddy Gordo the worst character right now won a major in UK.
While in Smash we can't even have mid tier like Chrom won a major.
Except for steve you’re right
*balanced except steve. But yeah, it is very impressive, and deserves respect.
I have been playing Corrin since 2019
At the time the character was bottom 10 in most tierlists and most people didn't know where to put them because they were so rare in tournament
The character didnt get any crazy buffs as Falcon or Ike, only got some useful buffs in 8.0.0, but rose due simply to optimisation and work
The character is still fairly underrepresented at a mid to high level play, but the top players simply put the efforts to go even further
As well as the overall skill level raising with time
I love that Corrin is finally getting some recognition. While I've never mained them, I've always had my pocket Corn and they're just a ton of fun
Dude i just picked up bowser jr. I wanted a character with a good item mechanic.
Sure his item is slow but seeing what you can do too mess with your opponents rhythm with a really good neutral when i get an edge guard as opposed to my normally lackluster neutral.
I feel like mid tiers have nieches that other characters dont show. Their power level changes based on the situation instead of simply having the same baseline options the entire time.
I love mid tiers.
Mechakoopa is insanely underrated
-It gives you good stage control
-Decent edgeguarding
-Nasty combo's
-Item, items are always gonna be somewhat useful
-Lastly its insanely fun to use imo, Bowser Jr is my second most used character and Mechakoopa is like 50% the reason i play him. It has endless setups and and combo's and thats what i love about it, its super unique and my personal favorite move in the entire game
I feel banjo was always a better bowserjr
@@Matanumi Bowser Jr has an easier learning curve, but Banjo has more speed and tools. Banjo needs to be patient, because Banjo Tooie boss fights are about running away from the boss till they expose a weakpoint.
People who didn’t grow up playing 90’s- 00’s fighting game do not know what a real “bad” character look like.
Even the absolute worst matchup in a modern fighting game is winnable. Some of these modern 8-2 matchups would be considered like a 6-5 at worst in an old game.
You mean thats why this is so unbalanced, every character has some dumb ass move that just wins the game for them
“This is the peak of smash, when he went back air back air back air up air I almost cried”
This ties into what I’ve always believed. The greatest weapon in this game is the unexpected. Catching your opponent off guard has led to almost all upsets and it’s the biggest X factor on top players. Mental warfare is a huge part of competitive play and the unexpected can be a really good weapon to demoralize your opponent.
nigga it's a party game
I do feel proud these last weeks having Corrin as one of my three mains 💪
What are the other 2? No judging tho, just curious
@@Acid_Vixenas a Corrin main, I also use Zelda and Roy.
@@Ervangelical Interesting. Out of my 3 mains, only Pichu is mid (other 2 are G&W and Fox)
So two are mid, two low tier, and two top tier, also you don’t have six mains be real lmao
@@2000Doriyas Actually now that you say that, yeah it's dumb to have 6.
I understand the sentiment, but the other questions that could be pull off is that some of these characters might not be mid tier at all.
Corrin for example is like the poster child of mid tier character. And yet this year SHADIC and Neo making Corrin become the FE rep with the best results.
I know people will point out results isn't everything. Yet, at the same time nobody think Steve is top 1 until Acola and Onin winning major left and right.
My point is that don't take Tier list too seriously. It can be used as guidelines but honestly just pick character that you enjoy playing.
Tbh, since the Corrin buffs, I've always thought they're at least high tier lol
@@marlinmurrell620 I think Corrin might actually be Top Tier. Not because of the buff necessarily but mostly because of how the meta shifted this past few years. Muteace in his latest tier list put her around 24th. And if you think that egregious Tea put Corrin in the top 15th.
I really hope that in a year from now even more characters we thought were mid are actually pretty good. Hoping to see Marth become a high tier
High or mid or whatever tier it doesn't matter nothing will take away from him being worse than Lucina plain and simple
@@Amaling blanket statements like this have no use. Marth isnt just worse lucina. He actually has certain mus that are better for him than lucina like minmin and donkey kong. regardless of mu based talk marth also has the potential to be better due to having real confirms into his tipper that are just underlooked by a vast majority of the playerbase. Essentially lucina is only "better" because she takes a lot less work to be good than marth does, but being easy doesnt mean being better imo. Marth has all the same movement and frame data as lucina which already makes him insanely good. I cant wait to see a marth main show everyone what the character is really capable of in the coming years.
@@Amalingbad take the reason lucina is considered to be better than marth is due to her consistency but if you were able to find a player who could achive that level of consistency on marth while getting value through his tippers and such marth could surpass lucina
I hate this, but... Marth is done for.
I've been a Marth believer for a very long time, especially after his buffs. I mean realistically, he is very good now. Exact same frame data as Lucina but with better kill power, a scarier punish game, and better combos/strings thanks to sours. I've had a lot of faith in Marth mains such as Ignaize, Stretch, and Riseazu... then it happened.
One by one, each player dropped Marth or are no-shows. Ignaize has been playing Lucina more and more each tournament... Kreeg is a no-show and doesn't go far in majors, Stretch said he's retiring from Smash and is moving on, and MKLeo seems to not want to play Marth even though he's very good with him.
Marth is done, man. Nobody is playing him. Some people say to just watch the older smash titles if I want to see a good Marth winning, but it isn't the same. I love Ultimate far more... I wanted to see Marth shine. I couldn't win anything with him so I hoped maybe the better Marth players could do it someday...
I was very, very wrong. He's done guys. He's gonna go lower on the tier lists for sure. I won't be surprised if they slapped him in D tier on the official list. Dude has zero results.
Go ahead and roast me for believing in this character for so long...
@@ilovepotions9576 this is just sad to read lmao
I don’t know I feel like I’ve seen so many cheese set-ups and early kills from I believe Ignaize, if he can find a way to land them consistently you never know
As someone who isn't solo viable with a low tier, I'm still working hard to make that character viable in my eyes. As someone who mains Isabelle in the last 5 years, I wasn't consider a serious player because of her, so I have Joker, a top tier character, to balance out a lot of my MUs at the time. As of now, I'm starting to see that Isabelle CAN handle top tier characters alongside swordies if spaced right and catching bad habits. Joker is still viable to me but now he's only for emergencies in case I need him. Bottom to Mid tier characters are on the rise because we all see potential in our characters and we want to show our results. I'm consider a decent high seed player in my region and hoping I go far in my first supermajor soon.
People just don't want to put it in the work to learn a high ceiling/precision characters to compete with. That's why this game is dead
Huh. Its almost as though ultimates meta is no where near figured out and people just gave up for a while
Day 1000 of asking vars to make a “why nobody but peanut plays little Mac”
The days grow short, the wind grows cold, and winter is coming. But I shall stand vigilant, and strong, for my mission is important to the fate of my family line.
9:17 THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! Soooo many times I hear people say that people playing campy and or defensive “Aren’t playing the game” like the game was built to have only a rush-down play-style and doing anything outside of that is cheating or cowardly. Come on now. At this point you’d be braver to camp someone out for an entire match just because of the spite that would be thrown your way for playing the game “wrong” This is part of what gets the Smash community such a bad rap.
Camping means you don't have to read or call out as hard/often. It's an inherently and objectively less skill-intensive play style that rewards much more than it feels like it should. Campers actively try to avoid the skill intensive act of precise spacing.
That's why you get rightfully dragged for being a camper, you are afraid to engage because you aren't as confident in your spacing and reading abilities.
@@Visual217 that's dumb lol. You camp because if you *do* engage, you can lose a stock. Not every character has godlike approach options. Some characters benefit a lot more from camping because they'd get blown up otherwise. Miya is a great example of a player who *will* blow you up with Game and Watch. If I took a stock from him, I'd camp the crap out of that slow character and let Miya do the approaching. That's actually how you should play the MU and the same can be said for a lot of characters. When you are up a stock you should know the vibes 🏕 ⬆️
@@DeRez19 that doesn't invalidate anything I said. It still applies.
@@Visual217 whatever sonic hater
@@DeRez19 LOL
Can we PLEASE stop calling Corrin mid. Those aerials are huge disjoints that combo (up air kills). She has footstool Dair OOS, she can ledge trap, she has consistent killing options, great burst range, and better ground speed than freaking Wolf. Her recovery is better than most "top tiers" we see as well. Corrin is far from mid tier and it's time for the community to admit that they were wrong about her.
Corrin is mid. Lolol
I was getting hyped all over again from the incin clips. That run was INSANE!
I agree with this so many people underrated low tiers and mid tier I wish more people mained mid tiers man every time I go up against someone it’s always either a top tier or high tier character I think if most people back then when ultimate came out should’ve took into consideration the fact that mid tiers or low tiers can still win majors it will just be hard. Honestly speaking I don’t think there should be another smash game, this is the best smash game we’ve got in so many years and I thank Sakurai for his hard efforts in making this game balanced
I think it's both. It is near impossible to be prepared against 80 characters in a game where you aren't able to get good practice online. And in general unpopular characters have plenty of untapped potential that people haven't realized yet. Japan's meta and tier opinions are significantly different from NA's for example, due to there people being really good pilots of underrepresented characters that open the minds of others.
I feel like Link has a lot of untapped potential. He's just not that easy to pick up because of all the bomb tech you have to learn, but in the right hands he could get results
I feel like people who main mid tiers are much scarier than people who main high or top tiers. These people play the game enough to know the vulnerabilities against most top tier characters and are more experienced. I would honestly be more scared at a professional Rosa, Corrin, Lucas, or Mewtwo than most of the high or top tiers since they are balanced through their win conditions. And since mid tier players know how to get those win conditions off, it’s much more intimidating.
I feel like Rosa and Toon Link are among the most underrated characters in the game
God I love this channel so much. This is exacty what I've been saying about why this game is so balanced compared to the rest. Like not just the feeling, but the actual imperical data-based reason.
They did very well designing the characters this time. The characters have win conditions that are (mostly) cohesive enough to make it work well enough to force opponents into *some* losing scenario. It's so cool looking at the kits and how they were made.
Again, balance is not perfect and not all kits are created equal, but the design is there. Knowing what your character wants to do matters now more than ever, since each one now has to compete against literally 70+ other characters. It's so good.
I play mostly mid and low tiers myself, so I know how some match-ups can be turned on their head given the right conditions. Characters like Mewtwo and Lucario, for instance, could quickly rise to higher tiers if players like Gachipi and Remrin can push them far enough.
I think there is also a big flaw in the way the community view character strengths in ultimate. A character like Pit for exemple has theoretically all the tools he needs to win any tournaments, and no fundamental flaws preventing him to do so. Same goes for Corrin, Inlking, Marth, ... they all have major qualities that can give them a decent math up chart overall and don't have any flaw major enough to make them "not solo viable", sure they have some bad matchups, but so does every character in ultimate.
The only reason why these characters are seen as mid tiers is only because they are either outclassed, unimpressive or unpopular. But when it comes to winning tournament, non of these are a factor.
Making a tier list for this game is extremely difficult. At least when trying to make it as accurate as possible. Because this meta is always changing. Definitely much quicker than Smash 4.
i'm glad that mid tiers are important too. i love jigglypuff and corrin (and shiek) so this is very validating
Mid tears doesn't mean they are bad, they just have downsides that can be overcome by good players and prevent bad players from getting better
I agree fully. Given the internet's obsession with tier lists, ranking, and asking "what option is best", people lose sight of the fact that they are arguing over the last 0.5% of optimization. Sure, maybe one character's bair is marginally better than another's, but that is only a slight advantage. Playing a good character doesn't make you a good player. A character being strong doesn't mean they will always win. To borrow a joke from a common colloquialism, it isn't the size that matters, it's how you use it.
wild that people think of corrin as mid tier. She has to be high tier at best, those aeriels are straight up broken
I honestly think tiers and match-ups are less important than comfort. Ultimate is not just a game where you can counterpick your opponent's character and farm free wins.
Yes I have been feeling this exact vibe more and more recently, glad you could articulate it for me!
I always knew that Kirby puff corrin and rosa were underrated
Everyone seems like they're trying to find the "20XX" of their character. It's like a revolt to the final meta of the game and people don't want that to be the case
I still have copium that a random Ike will come out of nowhere and make waves, but in my heart I know he peaked in 2018 😭.
This correlates to beastmodePaul performing very well recently too!
Perfect example for "stuff no one remembers" is K. rool dropping through platforms with Blunderbuss, I catch a lot of people on elite smash with it
Miss opportunity Cloud was made to be on that thumbnail, interresting video btw
I think it has to do with the fact a lot of top tier players aren't used to fighting mid tier characters being played at a high level. Fully optimized mid tier characters can do more damage than ppl are prepared for
Nice new thumbnail style. Matches the prior look while changing it up slightly with larger letters and more pop 👍🏽
One again an amazing video
Love ur smash and league videos :))
Vars, I love your videos, but I need you to get a recording mic that biases towards higher frequencies or to start EQ-ing your voice with a high sibilance boost. It sounds like you're talking through a sock which makes difficult to understand you.
i find this video incredibly interesting because as of this year and the last few years as well, melee has had its own mid tier resurgence, with a bunch of great donkey kong, samus, dr mario, etc representation at a high level. it’s interesting to see the pandemic affected both communities (despite melee being much older)
As the Ice Climbers are among my favourite characters, I'm super happy that they're rising up. Sooner or later, they'll be considered among high-tier one day (even though no one plays them like you said in "Why no one plays Ice Climbers")... believe it or not.
I still feel that Incineroar is one of the ugliest pokemon ever made, but I LOVE that people are now finding that he's good. He's so sloooooooow lol.
High tiers matter until you go up against that one madman who plays Duck Hunt.
I think the character I enjoy playing most is Donkey Kong, obviously not top tier. If I ever did try to go to tournaments, I'd probably still play him.
I think another HUGE reason lower tier characters can see a lot of success is by virtue of how many characters are in this game. In a game like melee, with a much smaller cast, even though you don't see a lot of those low tier characters often, its likely a lot of top players are somewhat familiar with them. In this game with over 70 characters its increadibly hard, if not impossible for even top level players to familarize themselves with each matchup. So when someone does pick some random low tier like Bowser Jr. that matchup checking is way more effective
I think this game is very balanced and well made. The worst matchup spread is probably only about 7/3 as opposed to the 10/0 and 9/1 mentality of top to bottom in melee. It’s all about how you play the character
i still dont fully understand why people consider minmin, a relatively straightforward and honest character, is gimmicky. shes gonna try to hit you, she has range, get in close and she struggles, her disadvantage is rough, is the gimmick just that she can hit from a distance? just that she can walk while tilting? that’s not what i would consider “gimmicky”
Honestly I agree with the official tier list. At least from what I seen it seems to make a lot of sense. With a roster as huge as this one I feel like having the tier list as a rough estimate of the character’s viability is totally fine. I also don’t hear any guidelines of people saying solo maining B and lower is impractical, but if people do say that, then that logic would be flawed.
Let your METAs SIMMER. Melee has had zero updates since release and has changed more than most any game at all relative to changes every 3 months to no changes over 20 years
The thing about tier lists is that they're just reflective about how fighters fare in the current meta doing their current meta things. The fact that tier lists change over time with some characters climbing fairly high goes to show all you have to do is to find your flow with your character. If it presents tools and a style that you can legitimately take advantage of with enough skill, tier lists are irrelevant.
This is something I was thinking about yesterday. Corrin, Incineroar and Wii Fit are probably still B/C-tier characters relatively, but characters in that range are probably more solid than we give them credit for.
Corrin is really good, definitely high tier at worst.
@@Eggss_B Low high-tier I'd say (which in this game is still "really good" as you said.)
I was making a more general point about how you can get great results with a lot of characters considered mid-tier.
Tiers in smash are really weird. I feel like they're more of an indicator of how easy the mental load is going to be in the fight.
The higher tier you pick, the more your opponent has to think and know how to play against, if he plays a lower tier.
They're not really showing how strong a character can be. I think a good example is Corrin, if you know the matchup you can fight against anyone, but if not you're crushed.
I don't agree, the mental load is far greater when I'm Fighting an heavy that Can kill me at 40 than when I'm fighting a casual swordfighter like lucina
@@djevebran2432 That's a good point, but I think it comes more from "fear" and/or a bad matchup. It's especially the case with heavies or touch of death character. They can kill you really so you are scared, the more you're scared or tensed, the more you're prone to panic, make a mistake and die. But once you know the matchup what can kill you and how to avoid it, the scare factor diminish, and it's less of an issue. Which makes the match more about how hard it is to find your win condition.
That's still a very good point in low and mid level games though. In high level games, the fear factor is almost non-existent which is the level assumed when making a tier list.
@@krashderipe3112 "if you have to know what they can kill you with, and pretty much every way they can use them, most of the situations" is WIDE. And, knowing that as you know them, your opponent is gonna try to make you fall in situations you didn't know and 50/50s where most options you have can be responded by one or multiple options that can either kill you or repeat, until they can consistently read/react to you or you finally accomplish your win condition.
What you said would imply that heavy and touch of death character would perform very poorly in competitive smash Bros, but we can see that : Kazuya, Luigi, Ice Climbers and Incineroar are performing really well.
I do not agree with you, and I truly believe that fear factor still exists at higher levels of play (sometimes even more because of stakes)
And the mental charge when fighting heavies is way heavier than non-gimmicky top tiers (Cloud, Lucina, Corrin, and so on)
@@djevebran2432 I’d say G&W has a very high fear factor too given that most characters should flat out never approach him unless they absolutely have to.
11:10 @WeHave2BanSteve is certainly making a good argument here as to why steve is banworthy, and in grand finals no less
I sincerely believe that skyjay plays incineroar as perfectly as a human can play him and the only reason he loses is because of the limitations of the character. Man is insane.
This is why I love seeing mid to low tier mains. It’s so fun and/or interesting to see what they can pull off with their character when the conditions are right.
Ultimate has significantly worst recoveries than other games ? I never heard about that lol
Mid-tiers flipping the script? no, more like underplayed high tiers finally winning
i mean, usually theyre boring so people dont play them. the interesting characters are either ass or top tiers (with some exceptions
As a Pittoo main since Smash 4, what I like about mid-tiers are the unique options they possess and the niche they have. Example, Pit’s combo and edgeguarding games are pretty good, in addition to his 4 jumps and down B shields. Balanced, yet specialized just enough.
Or like little Mac where everything on the character is either god tier or abysmal, averaging out to one of the scariest bad characters in the game.
Exactly, that’s part of the reason I lose to Mac so often
Ay, fellow Pittoo main since Smash 4! If it were possible for me to reach through the screen just to salute you and shake your hand, I would
1:36 well actually a 50to 51 change is actually a 2% increase and not a 1% increase🤓
I feel like Zelda could pull off a tournament win if the pilot is a high level tryhard
Ppl sleeping on ridley so hard. Direct kazuya counter
It's like how being left handed can be advantageous in a fight.
The real Corrin issue is honestly getting people over the fact that they were an absolutely unwelcome addition to the roster, only rivaled by Dark/Black (Shit) Pit in 4 and possibly Byleth almost exclusively in Ultimate. Never underestimate the power of poor first impressions. Even now, when talking about roster cuts, Corrin and Shitty Pitty are the top 2 fans wanted discarded or to unconsidered for the next game. Their only rivals are: Byleth (Corrin 2.0 situation really), OG shill pick Roy (Chrom too by association), Wolf (Starfox hasn’t 3 good games- he wasn’t even popular enough to come back in 4), Pichu, Dr. Mario, Lucas (Mother is finished and 2 representatives was pushing it in Brawl), and Palutena (biggest do nothing bitch on the roster: 37 years 3 meager games, series is barely a footnote to Nintendo, sits her ass out of 2/3’s of her own games, and the concept to shill her in is long dead and not returning. Isabelle and Pauline actually DO SHIT as NPCs in their games.)
I think the next smash game will do an overhaul and put all the characters ppl loved, including all the dream picks ppl have been asking for. No telling how smash 6 will go, but there’s a high chance corrin and a lot of questionable character choices will be gone.
Does anyone know the name of music that was playing in this video?
Meh, main reason is because nobody plays this dead game anymore
day ??? of waiting for the why no one plays lucas video
As a K Rool main I can confirm that there is a lot more potential than people give you credit for. I can literally just camp people out and make them come to me, there are very few fighters that it doesn’t work on. Sure, I won’t be winning against Mario or Min Min because they just juggle me and I do not land, but against characters like Roy or Kazuya I actually have a pretty decent kit to deal with them! You can keep distance and then use a reflect or belly armor to leave them vulnerable long enough to put them in an absolutely nasty combo, then you can get a really hype victory or a decent lead on them and they’ll still likely struggle to get close till you want them close. And while I’m at it there is even lower characters that I’ve done well at tournaments with like Piranha Plant, who is a ledge guarding champion with decent kill confirms, but he lacks very many decent combos. With plant you play range and air, given the best moves in its arsenal are ranged and work in the air. Plant is also a heavyweight with a scary smash attack. It isn’t a good character, I will not even try to argue for plant’s viability, but it is at least a little decent if you practice way more than you should with plant. Now admittedly my secondary is a high tier though, I second Cloud and I see massive success with him, I play a little bit of Kazuya and Sora and see decent success, but still I main a low tier and it’s my highest win rate. Nobody really expects some of what K Rool can pull off, he tanks most things for a long time and as long as you can control where you want to control he is genuinely scary in certain situations.
I’m gonna have to stop you and say Roy and Kazuya are characters that can exploit K Rool really easily. Just because you’re matched up with players that don’t know how to deal with K Rool doesn’t mean he has much potential. He’s a matchup check, when someone learns how to fight him he’s screwed. Crown is decent but your blunderbuss isn’t very useful as a projectile. I play Roy, and find K Rools to be highly susceptible to shenanigans that are tighter on other characters. You can die to a jab fsmash around 60 dependent on stage placement and belly armor isn’t hugely threatening. He has too much lag on his moves.
Considering melee is 20 years old, with a roster less than half the size of Ultimate, and right now we’re seeing huge meta upsets to this day; I’m not surprised. Ultimate is a young game overall; maybe eventually it’ll die out and we’ll lose progress; but if ultimate lasts for 20 years we’ll still see new metas being figured out
Anyone who disagrees about melee’s evolving meta; we recently had a DK main beat Leffen in tournament. And that’s promising as hell
I have seen a pro beat all tiers with little mac💁♂️
I'm so happy that JP player placed top 8 with Banjo. I've always thought he was underrated!
CORRIN WAS NEVER ANYTHING LESS THEN HIGHTIER
-Win Condition- Toolkit
Big reason, they got buffed.
ultimate's real tier list is an axis graph
What is the win condition of nowser jr?
And corin, especially corin !
11:00 Luigi is best character. 💚
i think im switching back to plant
Low tiers will always have this one advantage if nothing else: people aren't used to playing against them. This is the same advantage lefties have in sports. When I was young my brother entered a karate tournament. As we spared against each other, I would often beat him, but in the tournament when we played against other people, he got first and I got last. Because I was used to fighting him (a lefty), I didn't know how to fight right-handed people, but nobody else in the tournament knew how to fight him because he was left handed.
I honestly think Robin could be B- tier looking at his moveset alone. Unfortunately his matchup spread is part of why I’m hesitant to really advocate for this - he loses to nearly all rushdowns, struggles against characters with reflectors (though Robin doesn’t live and die on projectiles, due to still being a swordie, it’s definitely tougher for him without them), and struggles hard against characters who can edgeguard well, due to his resource reliance for his Up B.
I mainly play Joker, but I invest time in Robin too because I feel like I can figure something out with the guy(or girl). I’m still not the greatest, and I know I’m not the first person to play around with him, but finding things like late hit landing Levin Up Air (say that 5 times fast) into Levin Back Air on my own was more satisfying to me than learning a Joker combo from a UA-cam video.
PEANUT MENTIONED RAHHHHH
but fr peanut vs mk leo’s agies is insane like there’s no way peanut should of done that good but??? it went to game three??
I’m not surprised that Icies are getting some players. As the skill cap gets higher, characters previously thought “too unrealistic for top level” are getting their time to shine. Can’t wait for Marth to outrank Lucina in a couple years.
This is what Ive said since day one of ultimate and I have greviances about people suddenly "realizing" this. Yes, Im throwing a tantrum.
Can you do a donkey Kong video?
Haven't watched the video yet, but I'd imagine one of the big reasons for this is that when 99% of high level games are between a relatively small pool of top tiers, then the pros get less practice in against the good but less viable fighters. Funnily enough, different fighters fight... Differently...
Knowing how to play against Kazuya doesn't mean you can beat the other matchups. If you're a top player then surely you _know_ the matchups, but do you know them as well as the ones that you've been constantly smashing your face into for the umpteenth time? Probably not. Never underestimate the unexpected.
Edit: You brought up League win rates, but those are still heavily flawed for various reasons. Most importantly is that a lot of these websites separate win rates by rank, and what is good at a low level is very much different from what is good at a high level. You don't ever see different tier lists for different levels of play in Smash, but for League it's the norm. You might think that Nidalee is an excellent Jungler to learn because she's got a 51% win rate in masters+, but she has a staggering 45% win rate in bronze because she's one of the hardest champions to play. Garen is notoriously the opposite of this, with a 48% win rate in masters+ and a motherf***ing 54.8% win rate in bronze. He goes from a C tier champion to an S+ champion depending on rank.
If you're a newer player or even someone who just needs to learn better fundamentals, then you're far better off playing Annie or Malphite instead of Azir or Irelia. League is a game with an insanely steep learning curve, fundamentals are 100% key, don't overwhelm yourself by picking a champion with ten different skill shots that require a degree in geometry to land.
Secondly, sometimes a champion is viable only when played in a very specific way, which is only utilised by a couple of high level players. It's been a few years since I've played but this was the case with roaming support Singed. It was a very effective strategy, but the low number of people utilising it made the win rate unrepresentative of Singed's true potential. Same goes for anything else that's off meta enough to get you flamed for trying it.
Lastly, certain champions end up with a diluted win rate based on the kinds of people who like to play them. Zed is a perfect example. He's flashy, and he's known for having some very difficult combos, which means egotistical tryhards who think they're better than they really are like to play him. No offence to any Zed mains out there, this is just a trend myself and others have noticed over a decade of playing the game. Other champions that suffer from this effect include Yasuo, Riven, Akali, Qiyana, Lee Sin, and Vayne.
"Vaynespotting" is actually derived from this, where you add up points whenever your ADC "Vaynes out," multiplied by what they did, how they did it, and who they blamed in chat afterwards.
Louisiana is an obscure state with a bunch of low tiers. Some of the best players in the state are a DeDeDe main and a k rool main (51spitfire and KirbyKid/Lukewarm). I believe these low and mid tiers have just an underdeveloped meta and they can most definitely use their win conditions to their advantage to trip up any given smasher
I’ve been a Link main since 64. So even in locals I haven’t been able to win a single tournament, the skill gap and bad moves that always come with Link has been abysmal compared to s tiers, and now I can finally have a decent chance. Maybe is because the training of all the games over the years but I finally have at least som tools to defend myself from the low iq moves that most of s tiers have. Yet it’s still hard, like come on steve 0 to deaths over one small mistake are bs or god forbid he uses the knock back cancel glitch.
It's like a league. I am shaco main and you guys will never be able to guess how many tricks shaco can have. For ult only: Fake clone, wall jumping clone, insta bomb clone, shield clone, cloning in reverse direction, bait clone, jungling clone(usefulfor dragons), etc
Top 45 characters in ultimate are ALL solo viable. And the top 60 are potentially useful secondaries. Send it.
I think it has a lot to do with the surprise factor. Lack of match up knowledge can cause a loss. But if a mid/low tier get's played more often, I think eventually the hype will subside on it's own when people get used to the match up. Sometimes however, it seems a character was more of hidden "gem" than a mid/low tier and then they stay and get eventually ranked higher. I think game and watch is a good example of that.
the middle ground is the center of everything including the high ground and the low ground.
they cannot exist if the middle one didn’t either. that’s why empty air is boring.
I like the way you explain things. Will you do a fundies playlist, please? Maybe leading into more advanced play, too? Be nice to have that stuff in one place. Have loved smash bros since 64 and I noticed some of my friends getting back into it, but I been at the same level of play for a while now. Not a bad place, just not reaching that next level. Sorta just pick a character I like and go for it. Been maining Cloud since he joined the roster and he fits my "brawl and figure it out along the way" playstyle very well lol.