and a 2nd comment on your mention of insurance cos paying much less. I had a bike accident, was in the hospital for 3 days. was also "not admitted" despite spending three days there, 7 broken ribs, 2 transverse processes and my scapula, no surgery. The bill was $75,000 the insurance company, in network, paid just over $5k..
That’s why both hospitals I dealt with went to great lengths to stay out of network and not help me get covered. If I’d been a sucker and paid 1/3 of my bill, it’s likely still 3x what insurance would have paid
Your point around the 12:00 mark regarding not proceeding with payment plan was really insightful and valuable. I will put this in memory bank. Thank you.
Had a dumb crash here in France, torn rotator cuff, surgery then complications so another hospital stay, lots of PT and more MRIs, my cost , zero. Yay for universal health care.
@@naf2579 How much are you paying monthly for your healthcare insurance, and then if you need to claim, how much do you have to pay yourself? And VAT is the same as your (various) Purchase/Sales Taxes - how much does this work out for you per annum?
@@naf2579in the UK we have the same and average person pays around 20 percent tax...only higher earners would pay 30 to 40 percent. Regardless, in europe we have the better system. The us is fucked up
@@johnsmith-zf1fd I can agree with you that the US system is screwed. Still rather have the US system than give away almost have my income to subsidize everyone else.
@@naf2579 AFAIK the US citizens also pay taxes and there is also tax on purchases. And as for the tax in European countries, the same as in the US, a single medical procedure is not the only use of the taxes. We do get a lot from it back (depends on the local level of corruption). The huge advantage is that gradual small payments are not ruining people's lives. And the poorer people are, the less they are burdened with taxes. It's not ideal but far better approach than "you had a misfortune - too bad, your life is now over". But the key difference is in the fact that hospitals are not for-profit organizations and thus are not incentivized to inflate prices and lie about procedures and this is why, as Phil showed, the per-capita cost is lower, compared to USA. So, while we are, of course, paying for it, we are paying for it less. FYI, we still have the issue of pharmaceutical and insurance industry being for-profit but that's more of an evidence to fight against privatization of healthcare.
The out-of-network specialist who happens to be in the hospital and who happens to be assigned to your case and then the insurance company says they won't cover that portion of care received by that doctor is just another insane example of the problem.
Yeah, I've gone in to get a shoulder dislocation put back in. A specialist who did literally nothing to me, came in, looked at my x-ray, said, "Yup, looks like a dislocation." and left, and only THEN did the urgent care docs pop it back in. That guy's portion of the final hospital bill cost more than the entire rest of the treatment put together.
I am very appreciative of you posting this, the advice is excellent! I'm a cancer survivor I stopped keeping a tally when my retail cost of care hit $750k. I was lucky I had good insurance and an ability to navigate the system. The thing that stays with me the most is that at 55 when I had cancer my Dr informed me she had approximately 1 patient a year like me, a very sick individual about my age decide not to fight the cancer. Basically they did not want to risk leaving their loved ones in debt or at risk of loosing savings or home. I'm happy for you Phil!! No individual with insurance should have to deal with this system.
My dad went through a rare and aggressive form of cancer. A new treatment had just been approved by the FDA. We were able to get to remission. Unfortunately, while awaiting STEM cell transplant, he relapsed. Anyway, final bills were about $2.2m. However, he was Medicare. Out of pocket- less than $1k. My big thought- I'm so glad this happened when he was 69 and not 64. If you have the misfortune to get sick young in the US, you are totally screwed.
Thanks for sharing Phil! As a disabled vet I made the decision to retire in Germany for several reasons, but one of the main reasons was for ongoing medical costs. There would have been NO way to afford (good) healthcare had I stayed.
I remember when you were going through all this. I was already aware of the problems of our healthcare system, but I think it is really important that anyone with a platform share and spread knowledge about it. Glad things have worked out for you. Keep up the good work!
What's revolting is that some people just wont fight like Phil and got their life ruined by these corporate profiteers. The whole system should be illegal, yet here we are... With Donald Trump yet again leading this rigged system.
the comparison with develop countries is like comparing apples and oranges. we're not anywhere close to those countries in the public health aspect. unfortunately.
FWIW I've got free healthcare on the other side of the world. I don't believe it's about the really poor people who don't currently have insurance. It's about the millions who can barely afford their healthcare who would ditch it for a free option sucking billions out of the insurance pool, decimating revenues, and the plummeting of the stock price... after which the insurers would have to make their product more appealing! I'd be interested to know how many people have significant amounts of their wealth tied to these companies... your lawmakers almost certainly do.
@@xFD2x They pay a whole lot less - by a big margin. If you add up your premiums, deductibles, co-pays, denied payment because out of network, that adds up to as much as most residents in foreign countries pay in taxes for their all inclusive healthcare. And they never get denied claims where the insurance co refuses to pay.
The problem is framing it as healthcare for poor people. If it was pitched as free maintenance for labourers, corporations and rich people could get behind it.
So insane. Pain and recovery is bad enough but having to wheel and deal on top of that to avoid crippling debt is totally criminal. You’re a tough cookie for sticking with it.
The US is so disfunctional. Any country in which a person has to make decisions regarding their own health care based on financial concerns needs to have a long, hard look at itself. The quality of the available care is irrelevant if it's not universally available. Glad you got the situation resolved Phil
"The quality of the available care is irrelevant if it's not universally available." This doesn't make any sense. Universal health care for all Americans (setting aside tens of millions of illegals who shouldn't be here) would require trillions of dollars in resources and funds that simply doesn't exist. Instead of chasing a destructive fantasy the government should hold health insurance companies accountable for their unethical practices. Like it or not the incoming administration is the best hope we have for real "hope and change."
But if we didn't withhold these medical procedures, how else are we going to give free health care for the 10's of millions of migrants coming each year? 🤔
Damn what a savage story Phil. I had a crash this year in July. Thought I had great coverage, we have it through my business (we pay $2,000 per month covering 5 people). Had a cat scan done and urine test. Nothing major was wrong. Then I got the bill, $16,000 for the visit to the ER. My insurance only covered ~$13,000 and I got my first lesson about my out of pocket maximum which is $5,000. I decided to give this Goodbill service a try to reduce the $3,000 bill I got stuck with. Absolute nightmare hassling with Goodbill for weeks to get all the medical records released and other info. In the end, the hospital just denied their offer. And now I'm on a payment plan with the hospital. Our healthcare system is insane.
Thanks, Phil. I was struck in a bike lane hit and run in Grand Rapids, MI last May. I am in my 60s, ride about 5,000 miles a year, and won the local road bike time trial series last season. My bike was disintegrated below me as I rode the hood of the SUV. I survived only because I am 2 meters tall and didn't go under the vehicle. I found the driver and she is being sentenced on the 23rd. She is being charged with a misdemeanor. The county prosecutor told me that even if I had been killed, the most he could charge her with is a misdemeanor.
Great piece, Phil. As a physician, I tell patients everyday that insurance companies care about making money, they don't care about your health. Most are incredulous to hear that but it's true. Our medical system is totally a mess although I'm not sure the next administration will help fix that. For starters, insurance companies need to be not-for-profit, but that is not going to happen anytime soon. Thanks for sharing your story.
It's astounding to hear that anyone would actually believe health insurance companies care about their customers and don't exist purely to make profits. I'm so glad I live in Canada.
I had an insurance statement showing a billed amount of $158,000 and the insurance paid the negotiated amount of $28,600, leaving me with no liability. That shows the enormous gap between uninsured vs. insured coverage. Hospitals bill the full amount to people without insurance and so they can send that huge amount to collections.
The health insurance in America is actually insane. I’m from Ireland and if you land in a hospital no matter what is wrong with you, they will fix it for free. Trying to recover from serious injury and dealing with the insurance companies/ hospitals sounds horrendous.
Mate, this was eye-opening thank you! I'm also a rider in LA and had a similar accident a few months ago that caused a collapsed lung, and broken ribs, and separated my shoulder. Still recovering. Fortunately, all my treatment was in-network. But this didn't stop the hospitals from racking up the bills and I had a percentage to pay, at one point I had to say no more. It reminded me of the car industry and taking it for a service, the less you know about cars, the more opportunity they have of billing you or the warranty which is insurance. I am so happy to hear this is over for you. Keep up the great work and being such a good voice for cyclists. Hope to see you on a ride someday.
I had double insurance for a bit of time (spouse’s employer and my employer). I had to fight MORE, because neither insurance company wanted to pay claims. They always would say the other company is responsible. Ultimately US health insurances first stance is to deny responsibility.
Phil - I had a type V scapula fracture + fractured collarbone while cycling here in Poland. Took a 6-hour surgery to take care of those ( i got that same huge scar on my back), plus a week in the hospital. All public healthcare with a total out-of-pocket cost of $25 (to cover the difference for the "super-duper" shoulder sling). I was REALLY lucky that I went to the hospital with one of the few specialists who could do that surgery here. I will admit, there were many times during my hospital stay that I was VERY thankful I wasn't back in the US to handle the insurance battle - and hearing your story...ouch! I am glad you are ok and that the insurance battle is over!!!!
Hey Phil; “Statute of Limitations (SOL) on Medical Bills CCP § 337 for almost all contracts: 4 years from the date of the bill. Notice the “open book” exception that extends the SOL to the last service rendered and §360 which extends it to the date of last payment. If the bill is from a state or county hospital, the law is the same, but cite CCP § 345. Note: Passage of AB 1526 in 2018 prohibits lawsuits outright once the SOL has run, instead of the expiration of the SOL serving as an affirmative defense. Debt collectors are also required to inform creditors when the SOL has run out. CCP § 337 & CC § 1788.14” They cannot sue you as of 2022. You won, a while ago. 🙂
@@audengrumet3985 Do you get to bill hours for being a dick on the internet? Phil does not live in Georgia, and none of the care was performed in Georgia. Furthermore, even if it does fall into Georgia by way of some medical group having their offices there, it’s now passed six years. The point stands, he’s past it.
My partner had a legionella bacteria infection during the height of COVID - 1 month in ICU/ECMO, ~3 weeks in rehab facility - one of the last things he told me before being intubated was "get a full accounting of the bill". (This man goes line by line for EVERYTHING.) Since treatment was ongoing, the hospital wouldn't tell me what the "tab" was. After his discharge from the ICU, the bill was $1.5 million - we still have no idea what the rehab hospital fee was - and of that $1.5 million, he paid $40. Fully insured, clearly met the year's deductible, obviously grateful to be alive. Once he started going line by line and calling and inquiring, the bill was zeroed out. Absolutely bonkers.
Thanks for making this video, you may have done a huge amount of people a large valuable service by being open about this. People all over America are drowning in health care debt, and it should be a crime that insurance and hospitals go after them, but as you said, there is a lot of corruption going on, and there’s no reason health care should be a for profit operation. We’re talking about people’s lives, not their wants or desires, and making money off misfortune and pain and suffering is reprehensible. This video was very well done, explanations were excellent, and you are on point in so many ways. I hope you get 20+ million views on this video, and people learn from it. Glad your healed up, hope you are able to function at a high level physically, and your still cycling and enjoying yourself 😊
Phil, thanks for updating. I've been wondering what became of the bills. My bike accident was equally serious, but I had Blue Shield, or what is Blue Cross? Anyway, I had 100% coverage! No sweat. Still, I spent months dealing with my insurance, dozens of separate charges, and a $40,000 bill ($139,000 today). They finally gave up and left me alone. I only paid for the ambulance ride. All these years later, I sent letters thanking the surgeons and donated to the fire department that scraped me off the pavement, and to the hospital. They're true heroes.
Here in the socialist society of Canada, eh. My girl slipped by the pool at the daughter’s wedding in the Dominican Republic. She landed on her elbow and drove her upper arm through her shoulder. Daughter teaches x-ray and was adamant that we should get her home for surgery. They wrap her up and provide a bag of drugs. Three days later she’s having surgery in Canada. Lots of painkillers, steel and a mammoth scar. Months of recovery ensued with physiotherapy and followups. She’s 99%. Never filled out a single form or saw a single bill for any of it. Had to pay for parking though.
Glad she's well. What people usually don't talk about in the US, but Phil did, is that all those taxes you pay for your commie/socialist medical care (that's sarcasm) come to about half what we pay in premiums (or employer-paid premiums), co-pays, and taxes for medical care per year, per person in the US. In fact, just the taxes we pay for healthcare, covering the government's Medicare, Medicaid, and our VA healthcare programs are about the same as your taxes in Canada. Nevertheless, these programs don't cover everyone. We have to pay the insurance companies as well so that people can go bankrupt, have to fight claims for years, and have worse health than those in the developed world. We value paying shareholders and execs more than our own health.
@@1neAdam12immigrants are not the problem but the pharmaceutical and healthcare companies are. Paying politicians to change nothing and keeping prices for medication and care sky high. Lack of competition. Only in the USA.
As an attorney (and cyclist!), I have always counseled my clients against a payment plan. They are always crafted against the debtor. Specifically, if you miss a payment, the agreements often let the creditor secure a judgment against debtor for the full amount of the amount owed without any warning.
Glad everything worked out for you. Didn’t know that about the pedal mafia people, they make some nice stuff but I don’t want to give them any more of my money after hearing that
Love this. Thanks Phil. Too many people just do what these companies say and pay whatever they're told. I was hit by a car on my bike and even though my wife was on her way to get me they kept insisting that I take an ambulance... of no reason! This makes me so mad.
In Toronto Canada my father had brain tumors from 1993 to 2003. His treatments, operations, Hospital stays etc.....cost 3 million dollars. We paid for parking in Toronto at Western Hospital and lunch. Canada is not as good for medicine but we don't walk away with bills.
@@Ja50nkAt Partly true. There's a long waiting list for many specialties in the USA as well. I'm a Canadian healthcare worker working in the USA and my personal and work experience here is that the insurance system is a nightmare on both sides. I'd never want Canada to go down the same road. Canada has a great system and inadequate resources to support it. Americans have THE most expensive healthcare in the world, FAR from the best outcomes, and die younger and get bankrupted from it. That's a terrible system! Also, stop comparing US to Canadian healthcare just because we're neighbouring countries and start comparing it to a system in another country that's far superior to both.
I had injured my hand and need surgery on a finger, the hospital initially quoted it as ~$10k, but when I got the call to go in for surgery at a empty time slot at the end of the day I later got a bill for $40,000 and was told it was because the state insurance went through. So basically the hospital ended up charging me $40k for like a 2 hour stay and the actual surgeon and anesthesiologist charged about $2000 each. I'm not sure if the hospital initially lied to me about the cost, or if they actually did raise it because of state insurance. Maybe private insurance companies refuse to pay out exorbitant fees and the state does?
The revenue model is skewed as Walmart and Amazon profit per revenue is low. The fact that United is right below Apple is sickening. It means that the health industry is about profit and not health. Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world and the most with the largest revenue stream. How is healthcare even in that category if health is first?
My toddler was hospitalized, for 3 nights and 4 days, we're fully insured through employment, both hospitals we were at are in-network, and I'm sh*ting bricks just knowing I'm going to get hit with a massive bill. Glad to hear you came out on top on this one. Gives us all a bit of hope. But what a scam is our medical here in the U.S. Such a shame...I wouldn't complain about it so much if we got breaks elsewhere, like sales tax, property tax, income tax, clean streets, low crime, great outdoors/parks, etc....nope, we get screwed every possible way!
Depending on the company, worker’s compensation isn’t much better. I was involved in a work related car accident in 1998. 75 days hospitalized with 44 of those days in a coma racked up a $2.7M bill. Five years after the accident, I received a bill in the mail for $17k for a surgical consult that “slipped through the cracks”. My current insurance coverage has refused to pay for one of my medications and has tried to force my wife and myself to use their mail order service instead of using our local pharmacy. I’ve been working in EMS for 27 years and have come to the conclusion that health care has turned into health scare.
$4k ER bill for 4 hours in out-of-network hospital. My HMO paid $1,800 immediately. Hospital cashed check and did not challenge in state time window (about 30 days). 1 year later the hospital’s outside billing consultant tried to collect balance. HMO refused to help me or talk to hospital (since beyond 180 day challenge period). I wrote multiple registered letters to hospital citing the state law on “surprise billing”. Hospital never responded to me, zeroed the balance, and stopped sending letters after two years of this back and forth.
I was visiting my mom in the DC area from Switzerland and my wife broke her shoulder. Thankfully, it did not need surgery. We paid cash for all the MRI, X-Ray, doctor visits and other care. Each time for all the items, the cash price was on average 2/3 less than the "insured" price (for example the MRI charge was 500 bucks as opposed to 1500 bucks if insured). Anyway, long story short.. In our experience with the hospitals and doctors in the DC area, there is so much "administrative" charges that are added to the bill to cover for the final "negotiated" price and all the wasted time and paperwork that it just takes away from the proper health care that should be rendered. Back in Switzerland, we submitted our receipts to our insurance provider and everything was compensated.
Cory Doctorow also had a piece on "fair debt collection practices act" and, for consumer debt, the story is the same: do not pay anything, at any point!
I racked up $450,000 of medical bills from a back injury. I had emergency surgery at shock trauma and spent the next 2 months in the hospital recovering. I had no insurance, and I never paid a cent. The key was to never sign anything. Ambulance crews and hospitals will pressure you to sign papers - don't. I just kept telling them I was in no condition to read legal documents at the moment. The hospital brought me into a meeting with some admins right before I was discharged and tried to scare me, tried to get me to sign a bunch of things, I just told them to sue me.
Sorry you were hurt but this is not accurate advice. A "missing signature" doesn't free you from financial liability at all. Your consent for emergency and life threatening services is implied. I believe you got very lucky in your case,-or there is another part of the story that is missing. Additionally, I hate to say this, but the current ethical discourse revolves around insurance companies who collect premiums, but deny services. In your case, you didn't pay premiums, and you didn't pay for services -which is unfair for everyone who worked tirelessly to help you. The only way to escape financial liability dependable is illegally, and to give a false alias to the people who treat you. By law, emergency departments are obligated to treat and stabilize anyone -but they can still bill and come after you afterwards.
@@Neal516 who worked tirelessly to help me exactly? I worked my whole damn life thank you very much. And in case you didn't know - we can afford healthcare for all. And to repeat, I told the hospital to sue me, they didn't, because they never had my signature on anything.
Місяць тому
Thanks for the last statement Phil, as a surgeon and cyclist we want to help. We are just stuck as cogs in the system. Beware of those for profit hospitals as well!
I went through something like this in the 80s for $300K with Blue Shield. Afterwards I put up with three years of threatening letters, calls to me, to my work, etc., Blue Shield finally paid up. I probably was a little at fault since I would tell them it was up to Blue Shield to pay their bills and hang up on them.
Tore my Achilles in January 24. I can say that insurance made it really stinking hard to do anything but dish out cash directly to them. Stay strong everybody
You know, after I got crashed by a van, I paid less than 100 EUR and even got that back and some more because I didn't cause the accident... i was flown by helicopter about 30km with a spine injury. Hope you guys in th US figure that shit out soon!
some health care system we have, absolutely criminal, glad it worked out for you. Had a similar cycling injury, 5 broken ribs, smashed scapula and collapsed lung. Ribs were the most painful, sneezing was rough be well
What a nightmare Phil.. so glad you managed to work through this 👍 in the uk we have national health and although not brilliant as they are under a lot pressure and underpaid but I’m very glad we do have it.. Pete 🚴🏻👍
So glad I live I the UK where this would have been covered, no question. I did some cycling in California last year and was terrified of having an accident for exactly this reason. Hope this gets resolved for you Phil as to a European this sounds outrageous. All the best
Thanks for the advice Phil. Hopefully I (and my family) will never have to battle a big bill like the one you were tagged with. Still, your advice bears following even in simpler instances. Every billing opportunity is an opportunity for your insurer to maximize profit. Insurers have employees and networks of facilitators to squeeze every penny out of the insured. Check every bill carefully. Question every charge (every charge not just those that seem odd) and advocate strongly for yourself. No one else will.
Little tip - put your house or major assets in a family trust - you can do it on Legal Zoom for $250. Then if healthcare or anyone else comes after you they can't touch your assets.
"Go where they're going to save your life, just deal with the bills later." We CHOOSE this system, folks. Sorry for the double post, but it makes me so damn angry.
Amazing you were able to come back from injury that severe, I stub my toe or get an infection and unable to exercise for few weeks and I'm crying in bed that my sports hobbies are over.
It’s crazy that one can go bankrupt paying for health care. Having spent 3 months in hospital ( Ireland ) having a brain op and 3 consultants looking after me. No charge yet I’m still having aftercare.
Good for you. I just started Medicare-the original Medicare as it’s called, so I have A, B, and N-coverage wise. I will NEVER pay a for profit insurance company to deny my medical care. Also, there are NO pre authorizations w original Medicare. It’s just going to be easier and I won’t be seething w anger at some for profit monsters. This is only my second year and I haven’t needed it yet (knock on wood.) What I need now is some dental work which original Medicare doesn’t offer so I’ll have to figure that out some kind of way. Ally my best to you. Thanks for your video.
Suffered pretty much the same list of injuries in a crash in summer 2023. Luckily, in Germany that cost me a total of approx. 60 USD after all. There are benefits in having universal healthcare...
The Rainmaker by John Grisham is an excellent book which examines the power of insurance companies & their lack of integrity. Phil, I applaud you for standing up for your rights. See also being pulled over by a cop. I'm a big fan
Amazing these hospitals can even charge these levels of fees for this service, especially the first one, $150k for what, a week or two in hospital and dealing with those broken bones. It is a serious incident but the prices are outrageous. In some ways it is the hospitals that are to blame for the state of medicine in the US while the insurance companies have to work with them and cover their ridiculous price gouging.
Several years after my mother died I got a letter from some organization that buys up medical debt that said they had paid for a bill of hers I never even knew about.
One more reason not to set foot into the US. It's a mess here in Germany and Europe, but you got mayhem over there. Traffic, police, justice system, health insurance, student debts, workers' rights or the lack of them - just to name a few totally (from my point of view) intolerable situations.
Thanks for the reassurance and advice. I'm currently battling bills related to an accident I had in April. My issue has been trying to get the hospital's billing department to bill Spot insurance through USA Cycling as secondary insurance. I can't tell how many hours I've spent on the phone trying to resolve this. I'm down to about $3000 that they are about to send to collections.
Wow, outstanding video that is super useful and enlightening to perhaps millions of people. Well done! Hey, I live in Orange County. I used to race Cat 1\2 on the velodrome, well before you were born. I raced until 1980 and you were born 1986! But I can still hang with you for at least a little while, kid. I hope to hook up with you soon on the Ponies Ride or some other group ride. Maybe buy you a cookie or something.
Crashed a month ago taking a corner too hot. Left clavicle and a rib or two. Had surgery within 3 days and all the drugs I didn’t need - no bills. Canadian health care isn’t the best but it beats the US system for most people most of the time.
Just a note on the network hospital situation you talk about. There is a chance that you may go to an in network hospital and the doctor or surgeon you see is out of network. You can request to see people that are in your network, but, since a lot of hospitals bill for the room and supplies and the doctors bill separately that is something to keep a lookout for. A few years back, I had to get stitches in my hands because of a broken brake lever in a crash and for 10 stitches I was billed about $15,000. My deductible at the time was $3000 but since the bill was from an out of network doctor, it supposedly didn’t count towards this or my out of pocket maximum. Fortunately, I was able to fight it in court since I never actually saw the doctor who billed me, it was their PA that actually did the stitches.
I’ve had pretty good luck with United Healthcare over the past few years. I can’t say the same for Optum RX, who employ people outside the united states to answer phones in order to save money. They will give conflicting information often. People don’t realize that UHC doesn’t determine most coverage, it’s up to the employer.
The debt is probably still owned by some shady collection company who can sell the debt in a bundle to other collection agencies. One of these agencies may reach out to try to collect from you in the future. You’re spot on about how broken the health care cost system is broken. Many hospital systems are non profit but still put the financial screws to patients while CEO racks in huge salaries and bonuses.
and a 2nd comment on your mention of insurance cos paying much less. I had a bike accident, was in the hospital for 3 days. was also "not admitted" despite spending three days there, 7 broken ribs, 2 transverse processes and my scapula, no surgery. The bill was $75,000 the insurance company, in network, paid just over $5k..
That’s why both hospitals I dealt with went to great lengths to stay out of network and not help me get covered. If I’d been a sucker and paid 1/3 of my bill, it’s likely still 3x what insurance would have paid
"I do have an alibi "💀
That made me laugh out loud too 😂
I was going to ask him!!! xD
I heard this and assumed he was about to mention the poor bike fit and lack of dura ace…
I now have coffee all over my desk.
Is your alibi you would never ride an e-bike?
Your point around the 12:00 mark regarding not proceeding with payment plan was really insightful and valuable. I will put this in memory bank. Thank you.
Very crucial! I genuinely appreciate his inclusion of that detail.
Had a dumb crash here in France, torn rotator cuff, surgery then complications so another hospital stay, lots of PT and more MRIs, my cost , zero. Yay for universal health care.
Your cost is 20%vat and an income tax of 30-40+%. Yeah you are paying for it.
@@naf2579 How much are you paying monthly for your healthcare insurance, and then if you need to claim, how much do you have to pay yourself?
And VAT is the same as your (various) Purchase/Sales Taxes - how much does this work out for you per annum?
@@naf2579in the UK we have the same and average person pays around 20 percent tax...only higher earners would pay 30 to 40 percent. Regardless, in europe we have the better system. The us is fucked up
@@johnsmith-zf1fd I can agree with you that the US system is screwed. Still rather have the US system than give away almost have my income to subsidize everyone else.
@@naf2579 AFAIK the US citizens also pay taxes and there is also tax on purchases. And as for the tax in European countries, the same as in the US, a single medical procedure is not the only use of the taxes. We do get a lot from it back (depends on the local level of corruption). The huge advantage is that gradual small payments are not ruining people's lives. And the poorer people are, the less they are burdened with taxes. It's not ideal but far better approach than "you had a misfortune - too bad, your life is now over".
But the key difference is in the fact that hospitals are not for-profit organizations and thus are not incentivized to inflate prices and lie about procedures and this is why, as Phil showed, the per-capita cost is lower, compared to USA. So, while we are, of course, paying for it, we are paying for it less.
FYI, we still have the issue of pharmaceutical and insurance industry being for-profit but that's more of an evidence to fight against privatization of healthcare.
The out-of-network specialist who happens to be in the hospital and who happens to be assigned to your case and then the insurance company says they won't cover that portion of care received by that doctor is just another insane example of the problem.
Yeah, I've gone in to get a shoulder dislocation put back in. A specialist who did literally nothing to me, came in, looked at my x-ray, said, "Yup, looks like a dislocation." and left, and only THEN did the urgent care docs pop it back in. That guy's portion of the final hospital bill cost more than the entire rest of the treatment put together.
Just disgusting that in the end the insurance desides what care a patient gets
I was one of the ones who told you to do a GoFundMe. You stuck to what you knew was right and won. Glad it worked out.
Xo
I am very appreciative of you posting this, the advice is excellent! I'm a cancer survivor I stopped keeping a tally when my retail cost of care hit $750k. I was lucky I had good insurance and an ability to navigate the system. The thing that stays with me the most is that at 55 when I had cancer my Dr informed me she had approximately 1 patient a year like me, a very sick individual about my age decide not to fight the cancer. Basically they did not want to risk leaving their loved ones in debt or at risk of loosing savings or home. I'm happy for you Phil!! No individual with insurance should have to deal with this system.
My dad went through a rare and aggressive form of cancer. A new treatment had just been approved by the FDA. We were able to get to remission. Unfortunately, while awaiting STEM cell transplant, he relapsed. Anyway, final bills were about $2.2m. However, he was Medicare. Out of pocket- less than $1k. My big thought- I'm so glad this happened when he was 69 and not 64. If you have the misfortune to get sick young in the US, you are totally screwed.
Thanks for sharing Phil! As a disabled vet I made the decision to retire in Germany for several reasons, but one of the main reasons was for ongoing medical costs. There would have been NO way to afford (good) healthcare had I stayed.
Man as a vet is such a bummer we couldn’t take care of you here
@@worstretirementever Maybe, but we got some "swell" aircraft that can do what rain, snow and a rain/snow line cannot... You know; "hide".
I remember when you were going through all this. I was already aware of the problems of our healthcare system, but I think it is really important that anyone with a platform share and spread knowledge about it. Glad things have worked out for you. Keep up the good work!
It’s really easy to think the system is good and you’re safe until you actually need it
What's revolting is that some people just wont fight like Phil and got their life ruined by these corporate profiteers. The whole system should be illegal, yet here we are... With Donald Trump yet again leading this rigged system.
@@worstretirementever insurance sells peace of mind. People want to believe they're covered
the comparison with develop countries is like comparing apples and oranges. we're not anywhere close to those countries in the public health aspect. unfortunately.
Only in America do we insist on paying twice as much for our healthcare just to make sure some poor person can't get it for free.
FWIW I've got free healthcare on the other side of the world. I don't believe it's about the really poor people who don't currently have insurance. It's about the millions who can barely afford their healthcare who would ditch it for a free option sucking billions out of the insurance pool, decimating revenues, and the plummeting of the stock price... after which the insurers would have to make their product more appealing! I'd be interested to know how many people have significant amounts of their wealth tied to these companies... your lawmakers almost certainly do.
Nobody gets healthcare "for free" !
Even in countries with universal healthcare the citizens pay for their healthcare.
@@xFD2x They pay a whole lot less - by a big margin. If you add up your premiums, deductibles, co-pays, denied payment because out of network, that adds up to as much as most residents in foreign countries pay in taxes for their all inclusive healthcare. And they never get denied claims where the insurance co refuses to pay.
@@td_kdname5197
Agreed, In the USA citizens pay much more for comparable healthcare.
My point was: There no such thing as "free healthcare".
The problem is framing it as healthcare for poor people. If it was pitched as free maintenance for labourers, corporations and rich people could get behind it.
So insane. Pain and recovery is bad enough but having to wheel and deal on top of that to avoid crippling debt is totally criminal. You’re a tough cookie for sticking with it.
The US is so disfunctional. Any country in which a person has to make decisions regarding their own health care based on financial concerns needs to have a long, hard look at itself. The quality of the available care is irrelevant if it's not universally available.
Glad you got the situation resolved Phil
"The quality of the available care is irrelevant if it's not universally available." This doesn't make any sense. Universal health care for all Americans (setting aside tens of millions of illegals who shouldn't be here) would require trillions of dollars in resources and funds that simply doesn't exist. Instead of chasing a destructive fantasy the government should hold health insurance companies accountable for their unethical practices. Like it or not the incoming administration is the best hope we have for real "hope and change."
But if we didn't withhold these medical procedures, how else are we going to give free health care for the 10's of millions of migrants coming each year? 🤔
There are plenty of reasons why the USA needs to take a long hard look at itself!
@@1neAdam12 Exactly, let's blame the poor migrants, not the billionaire companies ripping the country off.
@@markc17
What's wrong with addressing both issues?
Damn what a savage story Phil. I had a crash this year in July. Thought I had great coverage, we have it through my business (we pay $2,000 per month covering 5 people). Had a cat scan done and urine test. Nothing major was wrong. Then I got the bill, $16,000 for the visit to the ER. My insurance only covered ~$13,000 and I got my first lesson about my out of pocket maximum which is $5,000.
I decided to give this Goodbill service a try to reduce the $3,000 bill I got stuck with. Absolute nightmare hassling with Goodbill for weeks to get all the medical records released and other info. In the end, the hospital just denied their offer. And now I'm on a payment plan with the hospital. Our healthcare system is insane.
Thanks, Phil. I was struck in a bike lane hit and run in Grand Rapids, MI last May. I am in my 60s, ride about 5,000 miles a year, and won the local road bike time trial series last season. My bike was disintegrated below me as I rode the hood of the SUV. I survived only because I am 2 meters tall and didn't go under the vehicle. I found the driver and she is being sentenced on the 23rd. She is being charged with a misdemeanor. The county prosecutor told me that even if I had been killed, the most he could charge her with is a misdemeanor.
Great piece, Phil. As a physician, I tell patients everyday that insurance companies care about making money, they don't care about your health. Most are incredulous to hear that but it's true. Our medical system is totally a mess although I'm not sure the next administration will help fix that. For starters, insurance companies need to be not-for-profit, but that is not going to happen anytime soon. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks for the comment and for doing the good work!
It's astounding to hear that anyone would actually believe health insurance companies care about their customers and don't exist purely to make profits. I'm so glad I live in Canada.
Why do we even need the middle man of insurance companies? Single payer seems the way to go.
It's literally the job of an insurer to hoard in as much money as possible, and pay out as little as possible. They are not your friend
"Retail" hospital care is such a cursed concept.
this is why I started cycling alone (solo) on roads with little traffic or bike paths
I had an insurance statement showing a billed amount of $158,000 and the insurance paid the negotiated amount of $28,600, leaving me with no liability. That shows the enormous gap between uninsured vs. insured coverage. Hospitals bill the full amount to people without insurance and so they can send that huge amount to collections.
The health insurance in America is actually insane. I’m from Ireland and if you land in a hospital no matter what is wrong with you, they will fix it for free. Trying to recover from serious injury and dealing with the insurance companies/ hospitals sounds horrendous.
It is!
Well, there is the €100 emergency surcharge. Though, only charged for self-referred visits to A&E.
Mate, this was eye-opening thank you! I'm also a rider in LA and had a similar accident a few months ago that caused a collapsed lung, and broken ribs, and separated my shoulder. Still recovering. Fortunately, all my treatment was in-network. But this didn't stop the hospitals from racking up the bills and I had a percentage to pay, at one point I had to say no more. It reminded me of the car industry and taking it for a service, the less you know about cars, the more opportunity they have of billing you or the warranty which is insurance. I am so happy to hear this is over for you. Keep up the great work and being such a good voice for cyclists. Hope to see you on a ride someday.
Good luck with your recovery. Patience and consistency but you’ll get there
I had double insurance for a bit of time (spouse’s employer and my employer). I had to fight MORE, because neither insurance company wanted to pay claims. They always would say the other company is responsible. Ultimately US health insurances first stance is to deny responsibility.
Your timing is impeccable 😂😂😂
He effectively says it's not coincidental.
FBI going to be at Phil’s doorstep tomorrow morning 😂
Not funny
Phil - I had a type V scapula fracture + fractured collarbone while cycling here in Poland. Took a 6-hour surgery to take care of those ( i got that same huge scar on my back), plus a week in the hospital. All public healthcare with a total out-of-pocket cost of $25 (to cover the difference for the "super-duper" shoulder sling). I was REALLY lucky that I went to the hospital with one of the few specialists who could do that surgery here. I will admit, there were many times during my hospital stay that I was VERY thankful I wasn't back in the US to handle the insurance battle - and hearing your story...ouch! I am glad you are ok and that the insurance battle is over!!!!
Hey Phil;
“Statute of Limitations (SOL) on Medical Bills
CCP § 337 for almost all contracts: 4 years from the date of the bill. Notice the “open book” exception
that extends the SOL to the last service rendered and §360 which extends it to the date of last payment.
If the bill is from a state or county hospital, the law is the same, but cite CCP § 345.
Note: Passage of AB 1526 in 2018 prohibits lawsuits outright once the SOL has run, instead of the
expiration of the SOL serving as an affirmative defense. Debt collectors are also required to inform
creditors when the SOL has run out. CCP § 337 & CC § 1788.14”
They cannot sue you as of 2022.
You won, a while ago. 🙂
Wrong. Six years in GA.
@@audengrumet3985 Do you get to bill hours for being a dick on the internet?
Phil does not live in Georgia, and none of the care was performed in Georgia. Furthermore, even if it does fall into Georgia by way of some medical group having their offices there, it’s now passed six years. The point stands, he’s past it.
My partner had a legionella bacteria infection during the height of COVID - 1 month in ICU/ECMO, ~3 weeks in rehab facility - one of the last things he told me before being intubated was "get a full accounting of the bill". (This man goes line by line for EVERYTHING.) Since treatment was ongoing, the hospital wouldn't tell me what the "tab" was. After his discharge from the ICU, the bill was $1.5 million - we still have no idea what the rehab hospital fee was - and of that $1.5 million, he paid $40. Fully insured, clearly met the year's deductible, obviously grateful to be alive. Once he started going line by line and calling and inquiring, the bill was zeroed out. Absolutely bonkers.
(Also note, we weren't married at the time and his income was quite low, so the hospital wrote off the debt under its "charity care" policy. YMMV.)
Thanks for making this video, you may have done a huge amount of people a large valuable service by being open about this. People all over America are drowning in health care debt, and it should be a crime that insurance and hospitals go after them, but as you said, there is a lot of corruption going on, and there’s no reason health care should be a for profit operation. We’re talking about people’s lives, not their wants or desires, and making money off misfortune and pain and suffering is reprehensible. This video was very well done, explanations were excellent, and you are on point in so many ways. I hope you get 20+ million views on this video, and people learn from it. Glad your healed up, hope you are able to function at a high level physically, and your still cycling and enjoying yourself 😊
“I do have an alibi”!
Peter Attia just did a deep dive into healthcare in the us…..glad you beat the bullying
Glad you beat the system mate. Over here in 🇦🇺 hospitals, the parking is really expensive and so is the coffee, but the treatment is free.
Unconscionable. This highlights a extraordinarily broken system and I hope you and others are compensated for the mental anguish
Phil, thanks for updating. I've been wondering what became of the bills. My bike accident was equally serious, but I had Blue Shield, or what is Blue Cross? Anyway, I had 100% coverage! No sweat. Still, I spent months dealing with my insurance, dozens of separate charges, and a $40,000 bill ($139,000 today). They finally gave up and left me alone. I only paid for the ambulance ride. All these years later, I sent letters thanking the surgeons and donated to the fire department that scraped me off the pavement, and to the hospital. They're true heroes.
Here in the socialist society of Canada, eh. My girl slipped by the pool at the daughter’s wedding in the Dominican Republic. She landed on her elbow and drove her upper arm through her shoulder. Daughter teaches x-ray and was adamant that we should get her home for surgery. They wrap her up and provide a bag of drugs. Three days later she’s having surgery in Canada. Lots of painkillers, steel and a mammoth scar. Months of recovery ensued with physiotherapy and followups. She’s 99%.
Never filled out a single form or saw a single bill for any of it. Had to pay for parking though.
Same here in socialist Australia 🇦🇺
Sheer effin greed, the Americans, sheer greed!
Glad she's well. What people usually don't talk about in the US, but Phil did, is that all those taxes you pay for your commie/socialist medical care (that's sarcasm) come to about half what we pay in premiums (or employer-paid premiums), co-pays, and taxes for medical care per year, per person in the US. In fact, just the taxes we pay for healthcare, covering the government's Medicare, Medicaid, and our VA healthcare programs are about the same as your taxes in Canada. Nevertheless, these programs don't cover everyone. We have to pay the insurance companies as well so that people can go bankrupt, have to fight claims for years, and have worse health than those in the developed world.
We value paying shareholders and execs more than our own health.
Emergency care sounds solid, but people with chronic medical issues definitely suffer more in Canada with insane wait times.
I think I’d like to move out of the US and into Canada.
I have always pondered why you have been training to ride your bike really fast. Now it all makes sense, mission complete...
American healthcare sounds like the worst in the world. What a terrible country. I’m sorry for anyone having to deal with this kind of set up.
It's getting worse.
We're now allocating these resources to finance 10's of millions of "New Arrivals."
I better not see you moving here
@@1neAdam12immigrants are not the problem but the pharmaceutical and healthcare companies are. Paying politicians to change nothing and keeping prices for medication and care sky high. Lack of competition. Only in the USA.
@@AirwaveMustang
You're the problem.
It’s horrible here.
As an attorney (and cyclist!), I have always counseled my clients against a payment plan. They are always crafted against the debtor. Specifically, if you miss a payment, the agreements often let the creditor secure a judgment against debtor for the full amount of the amount owed without any warning.
Glad everything worked out for you. Didn’t know that about the pedal mafia people, they make some nice stuff but I don’t want to give them any more of my money after hearing that
I’ve had plenty of tough sponsor situations but this is the only one that I’ve called anyone out for. Really egregious, gaslighting assholes
@@worstretirementever Well, with a name like Mafia, what should one expect?
@@worstretirementever Plot twist: Pedal Mafia felt really bad and secretly paid your hospital bills. (haha)
Massive admiration and respect for how you dealt with this ordeal
Travel Insurance is a must for all my cycling trips.
Love this. Thanks Phil. Too many people just do what these companies say and pay whatever they're told. I was hit by a car on my bike and even though my wife was on her way to get me they kept insisting that I take an ambulance... of no reason! This makes me so mad.
I’m surprised and sad there are only 300 comments on this. This needs to go far and wide.
Any Canadian who complains about out health care needs to watch this video.
Just depends on if you need it done now.
In Toronto Canada my father had brain tumors from 1993 to 2003. His treatments, operations, Hospital stays etc.....cost 3 million dollars. We paid for parking in Toronto at Western Hospital and lunch. Canada is not as good for medicine but we don't walk away with bills.
@@Ja50nkAt Partly true. There's a long waiting list for many specialties in the USA as well. I'm a Canadian healthcare worker working in the USA and my personal and work experience here is that the insurance system is a nightmare on both sides. I'd never want Canada to go down the same road. Canada has a great system and inadequate resources to support it. Americans have THE most expensive healthcare in the world, FAR from the best outcomes, and die younger and get bankrupted from it. That's a terrible system! Also, stop comparing US to Canadian healthcare just because we're neighbouring countries and start comparing it to a system in another country that's far superior to both.
Thank you for making this video. I feel like the tip about payment plans at the end of the video was especially helpful.
I had injured my hand and need surgery on a finger, the hospital initially quoted it as ~$10k, but when I got the call to go in for surgery at a empty time slot at the end of the day I later got a bill for $40,000 and was told it was because the state insurance went through. So basically the hospital ended up charging me $40k for like a 2 hour stay and the actual surgeon and anesthesiologist charged about $2000 each.
I'm not sure if the hospital initially lied to me about the cost, or if they actually did raise it because of state insurance. Maybe private insurance companies refuse to pay out exorbitant fees and the state does?
The revenue model is skewed as Walmart and Amazon profit per revenue is low. The fact that United is right below Apple is sickening. It means that the health industry is about profit and not health. Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world and the most with the largest revenue stream. How is healthcare even in that category if health is first?
Your videos are always great and you are a great direct story teller without rambling
My toddler was hospitalized, for 3 nights and 4 days, we're fully insured through employment, both hospitals we were at are in-network, and I'm sh*ting bricks just knowing I'm going to get hit with a massive bill.
Glad to hear you came out on top on this one. Gives us all a bit of hope. But what a scam is our medical here in the U.S. Such a shame...I wouldn't complain about it so much if we got breaks elsewhere, like sales tax, property tax, income tax, clean streets, low crime, great outdoors/parks, etc....nope, we get screwed every possible way!
Thanks!
Phil, you’re amazing, and an inspiration!
Well said! Hope you've recovered completely and thank you for sharing with the rest of us. Keep it upright!
Depending on the company, worker’s compensation isn’t much better. I was involved in a work related car accident in 1998. 75 days hospitalized with 44 of those days in a coma racked up a $2.7M bill. Five years after the accident, I received a bill in the mail for $17k for a surgical consult that “slipped through the cracks”. My current insurance coverage has refused to pay for one of my medications and has tried to force my wife and myself to use their mail order service instead of using our local pharmacy. I’ve been working in EMS for 27 years and have come to the conclusion that health care has turned into health scare.
Phil, I'm so glad this is finally over. Sending hugs to you.
$4k ER bill for 4 hours in out-of-network hospital. My HMO paid $1,800 immediately. Hospital cashed check and did not challenge in state time window (about 30 days). 1 year later the hospital’s outside billing consultant tried to collect balance. HMO refused to help me or talk to hospital (since beyond 180 day challenge period). I wrote multiple registered letters to hospital citing the state law on “surprise billing”. Hospital never responded to me, zeroed the balance, and stopped sending letters after two years of this back and forth.
Thank you for this much needed video! Very glad to hear you have beaten this awful system of events!
Glad this is finally resolved for you Phil. Take care.
Thank you for the great public service in sharing this information!
Wow. Good job. Thanks for putting out this video.
I appreciate you sharing your story.
That's rough. What did make me smile is the second call... 10:20, that is a friend of mine doing the voice over.
I was visiting my mom in the DC area from Switzerland and my wife broke her shoulder. Thankfully, it did not need surgery. We paid cash for all the MRI, X-Ray, doctor visits and other care. Each time for all the items, the cash price was on average 2/3 less than the "insured" price (for example the MRI charge was 500 bucks as opposed to 1500 bucks if insured). Anyway, long story short.. In our experience with the hospitals and doctors in the DC area, there is so much "administrative" charges that are added to the bill to cover for the final "negotiated" price and all the wasted time and paperwork that it just takes away from the proper health care that should be rendered. Back in Switzerland, we submitted our receipts to our insurance provider and everything was compensated.
Cory Doctorow also had a piece on "fair debt collection practices act" and, for consumer debt, the story is the same: do not pay anything, at any point!
I racked up $450,000 of medical bills from a back injury. I had emergency surgery at shock trauma and spent the next 2 months in the hospital recovering. I had no insurance, and I never paid a cent. The key was to never sign anything. Ambulance crews and hospitals will pressure you to sign papers - don't. I just kept telling them I was in no condition to read legal documents at the moment. The hospital brought me into a meeting with some admins right before I was discharged and tried to scare me, tried to get me to sign a bunch of things, I just told them to sue me.
Sorry you were hurt but this is not accurate advice. A "missing signature" doesn't free you from financial liability at all. Your consent for emergency and life threatening services is implied. I believe you got very lucky in your case,-or there is another part of the story that is missing. Additionally, I hate to say this, but the current ethical discourse revolves around insurance companies who collect premiums, but deny services. In your case, you didn't pay premiums, and you didn't pay for services -which is unfair for everyone who worked tirelessly to help you. The only way to escape financial liability dependable is illegally, and to give a false alias to the people who treat you. By law, emergency departments are obligated to treat and stabilize anyone -but they can still bill and come after you afterwards.
@@Neal516 who worked tirelessly to help me exactly? I worked my whole damn life thank you very much. And in case you didn't know - we can afford healthcare for all. And to repeat, I told the hospital to sue me, they didn't, because they never had my signature on anything.
Thanks for the last statement Phil, as a surgeon and cyclist we want to help. We are just stuck as cogs in the system. Beware of those for profit hospitals as well!
Xo
Thanks very much for posting this, Phil.
I went through something like this in the 80s for $300K with Blue Shield. Afterwards I put up with three years of threatening letters, calls to me, to my work, etc., Blue Shield finally paid up. I probably was a little at fault since I would tell them it was up to Blue Shield to pay their bills and hang up on them.
thank you Phil! Glad you're well and resolved!
Tore my Achilles in January 24. I can say that insurance made it really stinking hard to do anything but dish out cash directly to them. Stay strong everybody
We *HAVE* to fix our healthcare system. There are so many suffering that have no power to get out of their situations.
You know, after I got crashed by a van, I paid less than 100 EUR and even got that back and some more because I didn't cause the accident... i was flown by helicopter about 30km with a spine injury.
Hope you guys in th US figure that shit out soon!
Pedal Mafia is the wackest name for a cycling apparel company lol
some health care system we have, absolutely criminal, glad it worked out for you. Had a similar cycling injury, 5 broken ribs, smashed scapula and collapsed lung. Ribs were the most painful, sneezing was rough
be well
What a nightmare Phil.. so glad you managed to work through this 👍 in the uk we have national health and although not brilliant as they are under a lot pressure and underpaid but I’m very glad we do have it.. Pete 🚴🏻👍
So glad I live I the UK where this would have been covered, no question. I did some cycling in California last year and was terrified of having an accident for exactly this reason. Hope this gets resolved for you Phil as to a European this sounds outrageous. All the best
Covered in 2-3 years.
Thanks for the advice Phil. Hopefully I (and my family) will never have to battle a big bill like the one you were tagged with. Still, your advice bears following even in simpler instances. Every billing opportunity is an opportunity for your insurer to maximize profit. Insurers have employees and networks of facilitators to squeeze every penny out of the insured. Check every bill carefully. Question every charge (every charge not just those that seem odd) and advocate strongly for yourself. No one else will.
Little tip - put your house or major assets in a family trust - you can do it on Legal Zoom for $250. Then if healthcare or anyone else comes after you they can't touch your assets.
So glad I live in the UK and we have the NHS, incidents like what you experienced would have a zero medical bill.
"Go where they're going to save your life, just deal with the bills later." We CHOOSE this system, folks. Sorry for the double post, but it makes me so damn angry.
Amazing you were able to come back from injury that severe, I stub my toe or get an infection and unable to exercise for few weeks and I'm crying in bed that my sports hobbies are over.
It took a long time
Thanks for giving me one more video to show people abroad why i don't live in America anymore
It’s crazy that one can go bankrupt paying for health care. Having spent 3 months in hospital ( Ireland ) having a brain op and 3 consultants looking after me. No charge yet I’m still having aftercare.
Good for you. I just started Medicare-the original Medicare as it’s called, so I have A, B, and N-coverage wise. I will NEVER pay a for profit insurance company to deny my medical care. Also, there are NO pre authorizations w original Medicare. It’s just going to be easier and I won’t be seething w anger at some for profit monsters. This is only my second year and I haven’t needed it yet (knock on wood.) What I need now is some dental work which original Medicare doesn’t offer so I’ll have to figure that out some kind of way.
Ally my best to you. Thanks for your video.
Suffered pretty much the same list of injuries in a crash in summer 2023. Luckily, in Germany that cost me a total of approx. 60 USD after all. There are benefits in having universal healthcare...
The Rainmaker by John Grisham is an excellent book which examines the power of insurance companies & their lack of integrity. Phil, I applaud you for standing up for your rights. See also being pulled over by a cop. I'm a big fan
my goodness. That's awful. Hello from Europe.
Thank you for sharing your story and for the AWESOME advice!! Glad you have an alibi 🚲 🤣🤣🤣👊🏼
Amazing these hospitals can even charge these levels of fees for this service, especially the first one, $150k for what, a week or two in hospital and dealing with those broken bones. It is a serious incident but the prices are outrageous. In some ways it is the hospitals that are to blame for the state of medicine in the US while the insurance companies have to work with them and cover their ridiculous price gouging.
Dani here from a third world country (Costa Rica). This entire scenario is crazy, how you can get into such dept from an accident having insurance
Several years after my mother died I got a letter from some organization that buys up medical debt that said they had paid for a bill of hers I never even knew about.
One more reason not to set foot into the US.
It's a mess here in Germany and Europe, but you got mayhem over there.
Traffic, police, justice system, health insurance, student debts, workers' rights or the lack of them - just to name a few totally (from my point of view) intolerable situations.
Thanks for the reassurance and advice. I'm currently battling bills related to an accident I had in April. My issue has been trying to get the hospital's billing department to bill Spot insurance through USA Cycling as secondary insurance. I can't tell how many hours I've spent on the phone trying to resolve this. I'm down to about $3000 that they are about to send to collections.
Wow, outstanding video that is super useful and enlightening to perhaps millions of people. Well done! Hey, I live in Orange County. I used to race Cat 1\2 on the velodrome, well before you were born. I raced until 1980 and you were born 1986! But I can still hang with you for at least a little while, kid. I hope to hook up with you soon on the Ponies Ride or some other group ride. Maybe buy you a cookie or something.
Thanks for this video... Very informative and helpful!
Crashed a month ago taking a corner too hot. Left clavicle and a rib or two. Had surgery within 3 days and all the drugs I didn’t need - no bills. Canadian health care isn’t the best but it beats the US system for most people most of the time.
Sending supportive vibes. Slight irony, UHC sponsored a men’s and women’s cycling team until somewhat recently.
thanks for this Phil, you da man.
I’m so glad I live in the UK. We have the NHS.
In between the patient and the doctor/hospital is an entity that exists to make profits. That says it all right there.
Just a note on the network hospital situation you talk about. There is a chance that you may go to an in network hospital and the doctor or surgeon you see is out of network. You can request to see people that are in your network, but, since a lot of hospitals bill for the room and supplies and the doctors bill separately that is something to keep a lookout for. A few years back, I had to get stitches in my hands because of a broken brake lever in a crash and for 10 stitches I was billed about $15,000. My deductible at the time was $3000 but since the bill was from an out of network doctor, it supposedly didn’t count towards this or my out of pocket maximum.
Fortunately, I was able to fight it in court since I never actually saw the doctor who billed me, it was their PA that actually did the stitches.
Yep. That’s a common thing
I need to keep this video on hand for whenever someone complains about the NHS.
I’ve had pretty good luck with United Healthcare over the past few years. I can’t say the same for Optum RX, who employ people outside the united states to answer phones in order to save money. They will give conflicting information often. People don’t realize that UHC doesn’t determine most coverage, it’s up to the employer.
The debt is probably still owned by some shady collection company who can sell the debt in a bundle to other collection agencies. One of these agencies may reach out to try to collect from you in the future. You’re spot on about how broken the health care cost system is broken. Many hospital systems are non profit but still put the financial screws to patients while CEO racks in huge salaries and bonuses.