I think one huge difficulty of making new friends not talked about in this video is the more you are marginalised, the more "conventional" ways to make friends on the internet can be really really complicated, for all the violence you can receive. And so marginalised groupes will tend to organise things very privately to protect themselves, but it means that when you are part of that general group but you do not have anyway to enter those private stuffs, it's the choice of "playing with strangers but taking a huge risk and having to shield yourself a huge amount" or "playing alone"
THIS IS VERY TRUE. This completely slipped past me (due to my white maleness), but it's so pertinent to the conversation. My fianceé likes playing the same games as me, but finds the possibility of sexual harassment online to be rather daunting, so we have to try and make our own friend groups in these games, for safety. That completely slipped my mind, and it's a very good point. I would like to pin this comment, if you're alright with that.
@@superdude10000 As a trans person, amongst other labels, this is a huge reason for my hiding away in discords on the regular. Even when people aren't being openly phobic or hateful, it's still a lot of emotional and mental energy to deal with folks who might be indifferent, or just flatly not understand what's going on for folks like us.
@@digger4400 for sure. Gamers can be pretty nasty, as a general rule. That's why splatoon is a great example of the positives and negatives of this. It's hard to find genuine connections, but its community is one of the most diverse BECAUSE it allows people of different creeds to exist amongst each other, and bigots are none the wiser. Safety is important!
These games do scratch that "3rd place itch". I remember when I was playing Valheim with friends during lockdown, one of my friends was getting up to make a cup of tea for her and her husband, and she reflexively asked if I wanted one, while she was up; she had seen me traipsing around camp as I consolidated our storage and her brain had coded me as someone who was there. She felt very silly for it, but I found it fascinating, as she had inadvertently articulated a huge chunk about what I had loved of the game - that being able to exist in the same space, working on our own stuff, it made people feel real and present in a way many of us were craving.
So many games would be infinitely better with proximity chat, it just makes the game so much more funny if you want to use it. I wish it was in The Finals
I met my best friend during a random day in the game "FOXHOLE", when I rescued an abandoned tank and took it to the back lines to repair it. That day I told myself I would play only one life. After I die, I would disconnect. But I manage to survive in that tank for four hours. During that time, one the trips back to the factory to resupply and repair, I bounded a lot with this random I found on the side of the road, who eventually became my friend in real life. Great game, I would totally recommend it. Great community with proximity chat, and tons of new people to meet.
A huge factor in all this is the effemeral quality of multiplayer lobbies nowadays. Most games are matchmaking only (and a lot of them break up the lobby as soon as the match is done). Without server browsing it's tough to build a consistent community because you rarely see the same people more than once or if you do it's so rare that it doesn't even register.
Yes, the death of the game server list, with critical "last played" and favorites plays a huge role. This was what made Team Fortress 2 so special to me. U always played the same 2-4 server and after a while knew a lot of nicks by name.
this reminds me, i loved the feature in overwatch where after a match, members of a team could opt in to form a group with the others on their team. i don't know if that feature is still in the game, but it was great, i think
I love this excuse, because it's so far from the actual truth that it's almost painful. Almost every game comes with this exact feature. They're just called "custom lobbies" and are given to you with the base game rather than "servers" and requiring either $11 USD a month or an entire extra computer and internet router.
You can’t understand how happy I was to hear that you weren’t going to explain what Minecraft was in this video. In a sea of UA-cam videos that pad out watch time with redundant summary, you are appreciated.
@@bc4198 yeah i came to the comments specifically to see if anyone had a thing to say on why a quarter of this video is just a hell let loose basic tutorial.
Hi, I'm the OP of that tumblr post actually! This was a good video. In the post, I mention getting into tf2 in 2009, and I feel it's worth mentioning that tf2 offered (and still does) a variety of different experiences outside of the core game. And even then, the core game itself gives you tremendous freedom in how you play it. Back when I first got into it, finding a server wasn't an automatic process. It meant actually considering what you wanted and searching for that. It was clunky and unintuitive, but once you got around that, there was so much the game had to offer. And servers weren't just a map and a player count-they had names and their own custom content. Were they always good? God, no, but those are just some of the little things you don't see as much/ever in modern multiplayer games. It's not like this feature is gone in tf2; it's not the primary way people join games anymore. Instead, it's been replaced with a more modernized system that places you in a queue and finds a game based on what maps you want it to search for. The server exists less as a space for you to search for and visit on your own and instead as a vessel for one to several matches before leaving and never seeing that group of people again. And even if you do go out of your way to find a community server on your own, you're more likely to actually meet someone by joining the discord associated with the server than hanging around in it. As much as I bemoan monetization and busy-work-skinner-box retention nonsense in that post (and I'm sure that's what most people gravitate toward complaining about as well), this video really gets at the core of one of my biggest issues with modern multiplayer. A lot of games seem to disincentivize Just Hanging Out, and that's criminal. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to suggest how to fix it. Times change, what can ya do. Great video again!
I recently got into vr gaming and it feels like what games used to feel like a decade or two ago now. Almost everyone has a mic on and a lot of games require some sort of communication. I’ve already made several friends playing casual games like mini golf, bowling or ping pong. Not to mention some of the biggest games being social hubs like vrchat or rec room.
YES. I have absolutely noticed when I'm playing games like Pavlov or VR Chat that there's way more conversation than games like Counter-Strike or TF2 nowadays. Everyone has a mic attached to their face, and it's on by default. It makes it so the "barrier for entry" into a conversation is extremely low. I think the whole "gaming has become more toxic" is on more of a game-by-game basis. If you want to have a more casual conversational game, you have to actively look for those games and even specific game modes. In Pavlov if you join the Search and Destroy games, you are much more likely to have a "sweaty" experience, whereas TTT is much more relaxed and people are usually just goofing around.
I've met some of the most braindead and hateful people on rec room but I can't stop playing it. It's hella toxic and not safe for kids to play but its overrun with them during the day.
Just wanna chime in that Phasmaphobia was launched by a 1 person dev team too. Crazy how an earnest creator who wants to offer a game where people can have fun are received leagues better than Triple A cash grabs
Beyond this concept of games AS third spaces, I think it’s also worth considering third spaces truly IN games, commonly found in MMOs. Stuff like The Tower in Destiny 1/2. A neutral social space where you can just pass the time goofing off walking around. I really liked the Headquarters in CoD WW2 for this reason
I would have to agree. I have made many good friends with people I met in both Destiny and Final Fantasy XIV, most through just jumping/crouching at each other in social hubs, but some through LFG postings for endgame raiding too.
Idk, my experience with that is that everybody is just in their own Discord chat and even if you find someone who isn’t, nothing comes from it. Like, you’ll hit it off, but never meet up much
@@SpinningSideKick9000yeah I feel that too. I call it fast friends, like fast food, where you get a fleeting moment to socialise then it's gone and you're back to your old state.
OMG yes! Was hoping he'd get into that more. Guild Wars 2 had some great spaces in the cities. I forget it was called, but there was this one city (a giant pyramid?) where you could fall into this crack, and there was a whole group of folks that would just mess around there, lol And ofc freaking Yulgur's Inn (?) from Adventure Quest Worlds was fantastic as a place to just chat and go from there.
ff11 also has a lot of great third spaces as well, especially due to linkshells and smaller communities meaning everyone ends up getting to know each other somehow the more people play
Over the course of the pandemic I had fallen into the rabbit hole of good urban planning for some reason (Not Just Bikes was the first channel I watched) so I was familiar with the Third Place concept and was immediately intrigued by this video's title. Loved every minute of it. This was a fantastic essay!
I know you mentioned Deep Rock Galactic, but it should be mentioned that you can match up with strangers and help them with their assignments. It garners a huge friendly community that supports each other and buys each other drinks.
This. DRG is "oldschool" as hell in many ways: private servers, server browsing, modding support, and full coms. It filters out the worst "toxic tryhards" by purely encouraging co-operation, partly by removing competition.
@@GugureSux Somehow, online matchmaking for Left 4 Dead 2 is more tryhardy than DRG because the survivors will just kick you if you're not doing good enough for some reason. I still don't get it.
Multiplayer games are such a double edged sword for me. On one hand, I met my best friend playing Destiny 2. She really changed my life, I even moved in with her and my life couldn't be better. But on the other hand, wow is it hard to play multiplayer games when you're a minority in some shape or form. Being a trans woman, ive experienced some of the most vile harassment in online multiplayer games. I wish your video touched on this, because its a very real struggle to play multiplayer games when gaming communities at large tolerate harassment against minorities. Its a genuine struggle to make connections with people in gaming when theres so much bigotry out there :c
My biggest frustration is that these games almost don't facilitate a 3rd place that you can actually prod around in and find friends. And games like Roblox, Fortnite, Vrchat are these almost purely GAME or SOCIAL platforms that you have to choose, and when social interaction is a separate removed choice from a base game it often ends up not happening at all. Little big planet almost had something amazing, where playing multiplayer experiences as simple as a platformer or puzzle could be experienced with 3 other random players. Mind you the experience itself was made by some random player who decided making a level would be fun. Whether or not the person who made the level made it for co-op, many people could play at the same time and just hangout. I think that sort of design, with a more spatial proximity chat could really lead to a new genre of hangout spaces that aren't only games to be competitive or havve fun in. But a place to actually make friends and form bonds.
I'm only 24, but as I got older, I spent less time in online spaces than I did when I was a teen or even at 20 years old. Part of it was because make money now so I can buy the single player games that I want and I have less time to play those games (the backlog is backlogging), but also because those spaces that I spent most time in became "corrupted." A more literal example of this is kik and games like League, but one that is less so for me is RDO with R* refusing to show it the same love that the community has for it. And, I get these feelings even more on PC. On console it felt easier to me to add and be added as friends. Recently I've been feeling lonely and isolated and tried going on a "soul search" to try and recapture that magic that I felt with a cross of good gameplay and good, wholesome company that I was able to find even while playing the notoriously toxic LoL, but I'm unsuccessful. I'm way too shy to be the first turn on the mic. I also thought about streaming but I run into the same problem. I've isolated myself so much to the point where any game where I can actually talk with people has become horror.
I feel you, mate. I also shy away from turning on the mic, and have issues with loneliness, so I f**king GET you on that front. That's a lot of the reason why I end this video that way: it's a call to action for me as much as anyone else. I hope you find something that makes it easier, mate.
ironically tarkov has seemed very similar in this way (to hell let loose I mean). Although both games are on the more laborious milsim side of things, so they’re not for everyone. However, their nature as games being ones with styles and features that only are attractive to people that genuinely want to play them, as opposed to being a mass phenomenon that all sorts of good and bad people play for various reasons. All I can recommend is to find a smaller game with a bit of a learning curve that actually interests you, that way you can easily find dedicated, more chill people who always love another person embracing their passion game too
Recently I've been playing games like hell let loose, insurgency, and battlebit, all games with VoIP chat and a sense of community. Communication in the first 2 is incredibly important while battlebit is just a fun goofy time.
Great video, I love how in depth you get with the analysis! One game I think that approached third-space socializing really uniquely Sky: Children of Light. It's an exploration-based game that requires you to be put into a public server from the beginning, and you're encouraged, both by the mechanics of the game and the tutorial of the game itself, to interact with other people. The only catch is that you can't talk to them. You collect emotes and can eventually unlock a chat function on an individual basis with other players if you pay in-game money, but, before that, most friendships built in that game are just made by virtue of being in the same space together and deciding on a whim to help eachother out or participate in whatever shenanigans happen to be going on. It's genuinely one of the most welcoming game communities I've ever seen, I think in large part because of the way the game itself is designed
I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention anything about VRchat, even through just PC. It's almost entirely third places, though some community made worlds include games.
@@kev2034 That's just about the same risk for any game though, I'd say, but when it does happen I just ignore people(plus you can block people!). I haven't had too much trouble with that though? Shrug.
Hell Let Loose coming to gamepass was the best thing for third spaces - proximity chat, bigger squads, longer match times, keeping lobbies together after match, and slower gameplay make it very easy to make friends. More mature player base too that actually enjoys chatting for the sake of chatting
I was gonna bring up HLL - I think another reason that it's such a good example is its information hierarchy - communication is heavily encouraged by the game mechanics and mechanics encourage most people to communicate.
Lately, I’ve found a ‘third place game’ in ARMA 3, specifically with the Antistasi mod. The game is a mechanics heavy simulation game much like Mordhau and HLL, but open world. The mod puts you in the place of your usual enemies; insurgents. Being a milsim and starting with next to nothing, it really embodies the adage, “hours of boredom punctuated with sheer terror”. Those hours of boredom really aren’t all that boring when you spend them chatting and socializing with your virtual battle buddies.
I would like to share a story from my time with Mordhau. I joined a dueling server to practice my 1v1 duels got in a few fights but than me and this guy (who was actively roleplaying king Arthur from Montypython and the holy grail) started a duel with me. at first it was just a normal interaction, emote to say ready, than fight to the death, after i won the first duel he came back for a rematch. this time i launched my long swards pommel at him, for 1 damage, and it was on. we dueled easily 20 times each wining around 10 and since than we've become friends elsewhere as well.
Was pleasantly surprised to stumble across this video! I'd like to chip in some other games worth looking into for those interested in this whole idea. First and foremost: Tower Unite on PC. It's basically Hang Out: The Game. There's a hub space you can go to meet up with others and play a variety of mini-games, as well as micro-games in an arcade or casino area. Alternatively you can just chill out and fish, watch UA-cam videos together in a theatre, or chill in a lounge and put on some music by pulling from UA-cam. All of the mini-games, micro-games, and fishing goes to getting cash to deck out a condo where you can go and just hang out with friends privately and do some of the same stuff as in the hub space, just without randos barging in. Besides Tower Unite, there's some VR games that are also basically Hang Out: The Game, albeit with the added hurdle/limits involved of being VR-first, such as VR Chat and Rec Room. The former can be played without VR, but it's clearly not really where it shines, to the point that for awhile it didn't have text chat (and maybe still doesn't? I'm not too clear on that tbh), and there's even some divide among VR Chat people surrounding text chat in general (i.e. text chat breaking immersion to some). Rec Room is more similar to Tower Unite in terms of having more play experiences, but I think it may skew towards younger audiences similar to Roblox or Fortnite. Beyond these, though, I think it's worth looking outside of the commercial space, e.g. MineClone2 built on Minetest is essentially a volunteer, community-built Minecraft. Probably rough around the edges, _but_ it's free and the code is open for people to learn to mess around with, and there's a range of interesting mods for it as well. There's also arena shooters like Xonotic, Warfork, or Trepidation for those into fast-paced first-person shooters. Or for those less reflex-oriented, one might check out real-time strategy games like Beyond All Reason, Zero-K, or any of a variety of others built on either the Recoil or Spring Engines, or OpenRA. Further still, there's turn-based strategy titles like FreeCiv or Battle for Wesnoth on PC or Unciv on Android. All of these are either primarily multiplayer or have online/local~LAN multiplayer as options. I mention all these despite them having lower player counts, which may seem counter to the idea of meeting others, to remind people that there's arguably a greater potential for third places/spaces online than offline, given the multitude of complicating factors involved in establishing & maintaining such places offline, from leases to utilities to maintenance, all of which costing substantially more compared to online costs. Trick with online spaces is raising awareness of the options available, and the possibility of spinning them up.
Sky: Children of the Light is a charming social multiplayer game and makes for a great third space. Developed by That Game Company, the developers of Journey.
I played this game at launch and met my best friend through a chat room (separate from the game). We played a lot together, and then moved on from it and play other games now. It’s been a strong friendship of almost 4yrs now
hell lets loose sounds a lot like planetside 2, i might have to check it out, thanks for mentioning it - on the broader topic, i wanted to speak a bit on my experiences in vrchat. it has a lot of the same push-pull between going to public worlds or hanging out with already established friend groups, with a rather interesting mix of random hangout spots, chill social spots, more structured group organizations, even stuff like community language or dance lessons. the only core feature is proximity chat and everything else is up to world or avatar creators, so folks do a lot with it lately i've been getting more and more into spending private time, with those i'm close with - but when i think back about the times i liked the most . . . it was jumping into random public lobbies, chatting up strangers, and getting to know folks. there's definitely something to be said about putting yourself out there, even if there's a risk of embarrassment (or for a trans woman with a rather bad voice like me, harassment). it's not always great, but often it ends up being rather rewarding
I miss planetside's hayday. I've got hope. 3 is supposedly on the way and we're in a co-op renaissance right now. If it drops it's trailer soon *we win!*
There was a great moment in the new cod i had with some randoms, i can’t remember what we were queuing up for but people were talking in the lobby and one person said look at you guys with all your fancy outfits and me in my plain jane setup, and i said you are here to remind us where we all came from, and the lobbies general response was so positive and nice, it blew me away, it was so heartwarming not a single person said anything bad about his basic load out, and everyone was genuinely positive talking about their first couple of days playing until they finally figured out wich costume they finally wanted, it was like stories at a campfire, then we wished each other good luck in our next game, it was such a nice moment especially in a game that can be so toxic sometimes.
While I was listening to you talk about hell let loose and it’s strict hierarchical structure that is built into the game, I was reminded of foxhole, which is like a ww2 big collaborative effort, and nobody is really in charge, yet you see certain players leading entire platoons, or one guy running the whole colonial technology scheme. Kinda cool to think about how two games with similar premises take different approaches and end up in similar endpoints
I only just discovered your content, and it's quite entertaining/interesting. I just wanted to say that games relying on discord servers for you to be able to socialize with others from the community is very true and it's the bane of the third space aspect of games. One great example that comes to mind is Terraria. I'd love to be able to just jump on, and just find players to socialize with as I do, yet I always have to go to their discord, and spend a lot of time looking for someone to even play with, then it's just a huge commitment actually starting a playthrough with someone where it's hard to fill servers with a bunch of people so you just find yourself just abandoning a lot of randoms. This cycle can be kind of repelling compared to just playing with friends or even alone, and I think that the game would cherish from having a server list.(I do understand that might be hard or even impossible to do in terraria's case where it relies on servers being hosted by player's clients). PS.: There are very few dedicated servers but not many players actually get to find any of those because of all of these complications.
I think you end off on a really important note. So many games don't have the functionality now to join random games without actively seeking them and even if they do there is a lack of voice chat features that can facilitate the conversations needed to create friendships. So many communities are solely on discord now meaning you have to put yourself out there. It really can add to the friction of having these experiences and create the feeling that multiplayer games just aren't as good anymore. Loving the channel, keep up the good work like this.
Gaming "Third Places" have been becoming worst recently... aside from the typical "Xbox Live Kid" Toxic behavior, most games never seem to encourage players to organically work together towards a common goal with minimal communication. Which leads some to adopt the "Try-Hard" mentality, grinding by themselves only to go online and boast about their high ranks and high skill that they gained ( mostly. ) through their hard work, blaming new players for poor play instead of encouraging and teaching new people. ( even i do that sometimes... ) One of the reasons why i still make low-level characters in Elden Ring is to be summoned by others in Limgrave, the very starting area of the game. helping low-level people, that i very rarely meet again, and then having some minimalistic socialization through very vague emotes is probably the most meaningful and wholesome interactions i ever had in Modern Gaming. ( oh and the skill-ceiling is quite high, so try-hards are easier to spot... and easy to bail on. )
Kinda similar thing here; I occasionally just log into an old, nearly dead, mmo I used to play just to see if theres any new players around who I can help out with tips or getting some starting gear together. I dont like pvp though so I generally avoid those kinds of environments, which I think are probably the worst breeding grounds for toxicity.
I think its more so that games have become more "niche-ified" (I forgot the term). Something like Counter Strike has transformed from the game that everyone plays to a more Esport-centric "sweaty" game, that means when you don't play your hardest, people become "toxic". You have to now search for games that specifically are designed and meant for casual play. That's why I think people hold TF2 in a higher regard than Overwatch, since (objectively) Overwatch is a more competitively viable game, and doesn't embrace the casual fun nearly as much as TF2 does. I think the whole "people are too toxic nowadays" is a more of a problem of the Third Places that you are venturing in. Trust me, I have played Apex Legends and CS:GO for a combined 500 hours, I know for a fact that people can be toxic. However, I have also had an absolute blast playing Pavlov and TF2 with some of the goofiest people I have ever met online. You just have to find the places where the casual people congregate to have a casual fun time, and if you want a competitive experience, you have to seek out the competitive games. It's not like 2004 where you can play Modern Warfare and have people from all walks of life wanting vastly different experiences playing the same game anymore. Esports becoming "recognized" has made competitive games exponentially more competitive, so I think that's where the toxicity and anti--social-ness resides nowadays. Steer clear of those.
Some of my best social experiences in games have been non-verbal. Dark Souls summoning was one, among others. You don’t really make a connection to meet those people later, but it definitely feels genuine and wholesome
The survival crafting scene recently got Nightingale, a Victorian -era fantasy game about exploring fae realms and braving the wilderness in order to find humanity's last stronghold. The game can be played alone, but also benefits from group play and seems to have systems in place that allow for you to encounter and interact with random people, though I haven't been to any of the hub worlds yet. The bit I've played has been fun, if a bit rough, since it's an early access title and there's still stuff that's not done.
i'd be playing valheim all the time if not for the grind. an entire vein of copper made like 3 full sets of armor when i played with my friends. that rock would have yielded literally millions of kgs of ore irl but in the game it barely gets you a handful of resources.
I think the perfect social game is one called "Sky" its purely made to be that 3rd space where gameplay mechanics demand cooperation or give great benefits when included. Only shame is there is no voice chat. All text based. Still made many friends there tho. VR Chat is another good example.
there being almost no community servers in modern game is why these game feel like shit. These games are designed around the fact you have no control over the server, the game or who you play with. You will play the game who the devs want you to, they will do competitive match making even in casual and you will never see those people again unless you somehow bond with them over one game or somehow see them again. Modern games are worse people who played community servers will remember how those games felt. Like in tf2, you can go to one server and see the same people over and over again and bond with them if you choose. Greed and competitive cancer has ruined these games for anything than making money and making it a competitive sport and thus making more money.
I remember playing Mordhau on New year's Eve back in 2021 during covid, and having a blast with everyone else in that lobby, chatting, chilling by the bard players, dumping on horse users and having duels. Games, at least some of them, are becoming third spaces, and as long as we keep a healthy balance of third spaces IRL and in game, im all down for it.
This video is kind of a more-refined way of describing a phenomenon I had been noticing for a while, but fully-recognized after seeing how different WoW Classic was from OG Vanilla WoW back in the day. People just don't appreciate being in a virtual world full of real people anymore. WoW Classic was full of people that just wanted to optimize the fun out of the game and play the meta, even people like me, to an extent, that usually stop and smell the roses. What I realized was, at least in part, a symptom of the disease of people not using MMORPGs as third spaces anymore, which is a crying shame. There used to be a shared "it's a big world out there" feeling that nobody appreciates anymore.
My online third space is a game called SCP secret lab. It has proximity chat and scary monsters just like phasmo and lethal co, but you can also just hop on a random server and have a good time. all the spectators have a chat and I have made so many friends on that game. If you are looking for a different game besides the ones mentioned in the video then you should consider giving it a try.
I'm a committed and passionate fighting game player! After recently watching and reading information about this "Third Spaces" framework, I made a realization - the FGC is just one big third space :D Guilds, groups, clans, discords, forums, online tournaments, friends, rivals, and even sometimes enemies.... And beyond that! OFFLINE TOURNAMENTS. The majority of "local" tournaments are either weekly or monthly, and the communal experience is beyond invaluable. Majors and big regionals are so exciting too (like Evo as you mentioned), CEO, VsFighting, UFA, Wake Up On Trent etc. I guess this puts into words how good the FGC is overall for people's mental health :3
I'm in a way stuck in my old 3rd spaces, they died and I don't like the new ones, also just being an adult means it is hard to find time to just spend 3 hours to chill with people. One of my favorites is just playing TF2 2fort all day on a weekend, chilling dancing, doing stupid stuff, very repetitive, but in a way I could do it all day every day, the problem is that community I loved has changed, I really do think Esports has probably done this, everyone just wants to compete, in most games if you try to be friendly or show obvious non hostile intent, you will be gunned down 99 times out of 100, which really discourages you to keep trying.
Basically what I wanted to comment on. Dedicated servers were an excellent third space, and pretty much all FPS games have moved away from them. There's a lot more focus on winning, optimizing away any bit of downtime, and pushing the community away into third party services. It's turned it all into a second job. TF2 is going to become old enough to drink, and it's still alive. I really think it's because it's the one of the few last FPSes that are actually fun, rather than 'engaging', to play.
Interesting video, and frankly as someone who has seen a decrease in friend-making through games in recent years as well as just an overall change in atmosphere I wonder if I could contribute some additional ideas to this, primarily through my experiences in the past 14 years. Actually, no, add a handful more onto that. So to start this I was never particularly into online multiplayer shooters (except for those approaching more simulator levels and even then only a bit), so I mostly made online friends through other sorts of games. I can't really speak for the shooter space and how it changed. In the late 00s this would've been MMOs, primarily those for kids. Even though I didn't retain said friends I do have fond memories of a Pirates of the Caribbean MMO, Wizard 101, and Webkinz. My username actually relates to that time, combining my desire for online privacy with a string of digits that may-or-may-not be my birthday. But the first time I thought I was really part of an online community; not either tagging along with IRL friends or just kind of doing my own thing in a sea of people doing the same, was ironically enough, Spore. As much as the game itself is singleplayer, the ability to share creations online and comment on other's creations and also make adventures for others play and such really led to an atmosphere of community, of cooperativeness, of everyone learning from everyone else and working on improving. It wasn't perfect; there were bad apples, but the fact that all of this was encouraged through the website of a single player game is frankly kind of mind-boggling, especially in 2008-2010 (I first got it in 2010). Trying to win contests or even just create stories from just sets of creations or via pictures in the adventure editor really made the game something special, and I certainly remember many from the time and can optionally keep in contact with a number of them even if I really haven't been much lately. A few years later the Kerbal Space Program forum community would offer up a very similar feeling, with the sharing of creations and the ability to do challenges, although the challenges being more "accomplish something ingame" since it came with actual physics, compared to Spore. At around the same time was the popularization of survival games with online communities not being difficult to find either ingame, through official tools, or through searching server browsers. Of course Minecraft was the big one, but DayZ (the mod) was another big one (as well as other Arma 2 modded gamemodes), and I also got involved in some Starmade servers. These games felt properly like the digital third space; games where you could run into people without every encounter immediately becoming hostile, but with said tension present. I wouldn't really say any DayZ friends lasted into the present, but Minecraft and Starmade definitely did. But it feels like these spaces largely died late in the decade, largely as Discord came about. I got a handful of months out of ARK:SE that were similar to my DayZ days, but that only happened through a connection I had recently made on Starmade. But really after that, everything moved to Discord, and making friends online changed. I still didn't find it terrible until the past couple of years, but it feels less special now. From the Depths and Planet Coaster did fit in a very similar vein to Spore and KSP, but by the time I really got into them the communities had full moved-onto Discord. The thing is that in Discord I could still definitely make friends, but part of that came down to navigating the older internet and having old connections. But for someone who would be newer in this space; where the modern ingame or official website options for becoming parts of game's communities is largely dead and what remains is often highly toxic, where what's expected is making friends through Discord servers, I can see the problem.
Honestly want to add on more to this incoherent ramble; some shower thoughts, if you will. For Spore and KSP, there was frankly something special about interacting with the community through the game’s website or forum that has largely been lost now that everything’s moved to Discord. I suppose the Steam Workshop does work a bit similarly to Spore’s website, but it just feels far more impersonal. In regards as to why I look back at DayZ mod and early ARK:SE so fondly as “gaming third spaces” is I think to do with the types of interaction you’d get with other players, that’s just difficult to do in other genres, and why of the games mentioned in the video I think only Minecraft has a chance of actually being decent for making new friends rather than playing with established ones. Making friends in games is best done where you are regularly interacting with them, be it a comrade, ally, trading partner, or respected enemy, over the course of hours or preferably days, in a manner where the relation stays consistent. Or emergently flows with whatever happens, rather than being decided by matchmaking RNG. The need to compete for resources and territory without forcing players to be hostile really allows for such conditions to flourish. I’m nodding off right now so that’s really the body of what I’ve gotta add.
Im glad I clicked this video! I'm very interested in discussions of "third places" but never have heard the discussion extended to gaming. You pointed out something about online gaming that I have been feeling but not really noticing the past few years. Great video and great analysis (and the recommendations are just a cherry on top!). Subscribed :)
I've had a lot of memories when I was playing games like team fortress 2 right at the tail end of the golden years of that game were you were just find a community from just joining some random low gravity trade server or friendly server or even just a regular community server, where sometimes people would just play the game. Sometimes people would chill and talk, you would always have the one place you would visit in a community server that you just felt like part of it. No discord, no Skype, no preset anything. Just people joining in to have fun. It also helps that TF2 is a game that has a lot of player expression in the form of hats, cosmetics, and (uncensored) sprays. That just really let you express yourself, Even the idea of doing gimmicky playstyles is a form of self-expression. Garry's mod was also a server that had a lot of large servers where the same people would always come around and just goof off, sandbox or darkrp back when it was decent. It's a shame that games these days do not like community servers
I can safely say the only couple of games I've genuinely made long-term friends in are VRChat and Final Fantasy XIV. I can't think of the last time I've made friends outside of these two games. Anything else I play outside of those games are with pre-existing friends.
Hey you asked about other 3rd placeish games and for me it recently has been foxhole by siege camp. It's a massively multiplayer war game where all the logistic is done by players and where most successful assault are the result of players cooperation. The main difference with hell let loose (apart from the graphics) is that a war is uninterrupted for weeks if not a full month with different server interconnected. Making it viable to stay in one to learn the map and get used to the layout meaning you will probably often meet the same people and thus they become "regulars" as in a bar.
I was a huge forum nerd, there are several games where I still have the top 10 posts over a decade later with pretty much no spamming, I love it. Reddit and then discord really did replace these and I think that discord can be a good place and I've seen many people try to make a 'third place' out of their discord server but it's often hit or miss mostly miss, you need enough people that you can pick up X game and find a few people to join, but also not so many people that most are foreign to you. As you jump game to game this just splits more and more. Streamers kind of have to make their own community so a lot of times you can find it there, but unless you want to follow someone around the same old few games there's no points. I really do wish I got into Bay12Games forum more, every game I've played with those lads has been an amazing experience.
I can recommend giving Void Crew a look. It's quite early in Early Access, but it's shaping out to be a great coop game with divided up roles incenticising communication, a public group finder and built in voice chat.
I once met a partner in the town square of Bowerstone in Fable 2. I had completed the game within the first few days of it being out and I was bored so I just was giving random gifts to strangers. One of them responded with a gift back to me and we ended up on voice chat for a few hours. It was great. Personally I love the games that have a town square or lobby where I can meet other people. With the modern need of hopping onto a third party app, it feels like a lot of extra work for a lot of extra disappointment when scheduling or other factors get in the way of the actual play. It's nice to be able to hop into a game and meet people at my own pace while I'm already gaming. I think we more games that have a central hub where everyone wanders in and out of at some point and also allow for other interactions other than just chat. Recently I had a good time in ESO and before that, even The Division though to a lesser degree. We need more third places now more than ever, and the idea of third places in games is really interesting.
This video spoke a lot about what I feel. I hate match making in video games ever since Gears of War 2 introduced it to me. I used to enjoy playing the game because of how fun it was to meet people and play with them or leave to find a more suitable lobby. Now it's just Randoms. It feels like it's almost exclusively indie games that use the old ways to make friends and connections. Thankfully I have friends I can play with these days, but they are all adults with their own life goals and I can't keep bothering them to get on with me since I game daily and not all of them do anymore.
really good vid, i feel kind of bad for not having friends to play with, but still a good one. just 1 thing, at the start of the vid at some point the audio was kind of bad for a couple minutes, just stay closer to the mic so that we could hear your awasome voice!
Loved the mordhau shoutout. I played competitive ladder in that game throughout the pandemic, but the RP servers were what kept me. We had entire clan wars with intersecting and disparate discords. Factions would vie for power and influence over the map. Players would log in as different identities. There’s nothing else like it left after that server died, I’m glad people are still playing the base game.
Haven't watched yet but seeing the title felt like having a wrapped gift waiting on my desk in the morning I can't verbally express how much this topic appeals to me
31:48 is the highlight of the video. Just kidding, but that is an adorable cat. Good video overall, and I can definitely resonate with the talking points. Shoutouts to Lethal Company and DRG for making that forever-grind that is work feel fun with friends.
Ya as the person who met my partner (and several forever friends) in overwatch lookin for group it makes me so sad it’s gone, someone once called overwatch lfg the bar for people with social anxiety and that rly stuck with me. Newest third space game is pal world for sure, all of y’all lookin for a fun space with friends u already have that’s the spot! Good vid (:
This is why I haven't made a friend I've interacted with outside of the game I met them in since Overwatch. The original one, not the shitshow of a sequel. The combination of a commonly-used in-game voice chat and an integrated, in-game friends list, as opposed to just a generic steam friends system, meant that when I played that game, not only was I meeting and talking to new people all the time, I was much more likely to add them to my friends list when that meant only adding them as a friend for that game in particular, rather than adding them to the list of friends on steam that I friended once and never talked to again.
I like your videos. This one hits on a lot of ideas I've been thinking about a lot lately. I do feel like your conclusions could use a less ham-fisted approach. But you're doing a great job regardless. Thanks for keeping it up.
An important part of *Third Spaces* you left out, and it doesn't seem intentional, is that ideally they are spaces where you _don't have to pay money to exist in._ So, typically a restaurant or store isn't a third space. First, you're not meant to just _loiter_ (exist) in either without paying money for services, then getting the F O so that someone else can pay to be there for a brief time. Parks and libraries are good examples, though both may be gone from the town or city you live -- specifically if it's North America -- or be in such disrepair that it's not desirable to be there. Some hobby stores can kinda fill this role but these can be even more rare and equally so are unlikely to let you take up space without some money being exchanged. BUT, there was one in my town for about a decade or more where you could just go, with your friends, and play board games or TTRPGs there without spending a dime. Though, sure, you may still buy some dice or drinks/snacks, or get a copy of a new RPG book. But you didn't have to. Unfortunately it was sold by the former owner and the new owner is looking to squeeze every buck out of it he can... so now it kind of sucks and seem to be drifting away from even being a board game / Tabletop RPG / Tabletop Wargaming store. Also, the new owner is quite concerned about some stuff being woke, so that's not a bad sign or anything. Pubs are also often considered third spaces. Though I can't say for sure, being in North America. So I guess buying a pint or some food isn't required but seems like it'd be a bit awkward not to do so. I do find it interesting, though, that besides parks and libraries, my other two examples still include spending money at least some of the time as a part of being there. A better explanation can be found in this video: ua-cam.com/video/VvdQ381K5xg/v-deo.html
What a great video. This really made me feel nostalgic for how I used to play video games: talking to anyone and always being open to new interactions and friendships. Definitely subscribing
It took me a long time playing Hawken and Helldivers before I could pull my weight well enough ingame to also do my bit in textchat. Hell once or twice I even got to know people well enough to unmute them, look forward to seeing them on return visits and sometime even play at a different time of day to spend longer with them. The tools available ingame were/are always laughably rough and patchy but the kind of space they created for ad-hoc, very organic 'roleplay' are a real and difficult to replicate asset.
This video is good. It was a weird experience listening to you talk about valheim, though, for one reason. I’m 80% sure I’ve seen a valheim video before, but I don’t remember. You describing the infrastructure changing colors- I thought of a tree made of barrels? The summoning bosses- a stone mossy brick arena with pillars and a gray sky. (I was listening to this while gardening, couldn’t look at screen)
Really unfortunate this video came right before Helldivers 2 :') definitely one of the most successful cooperative multiplayer games out there, with a strong community and infinite amount of memes
Damn, this is a really good informative and in depth video, it brings up some things that I haven't really thought about and is very interesting I have no friends :(
Just finished the video. Just want to say (because it’s not usually commented) good job. Honestly the video held my attention the whole time, not just from snappy editing of the clips, but the structure and voice over of the explanations. Great video.
It's a hard video to relate to personally. My whole life (the whole 20 years of it) i've never really been that social. I didn't have friends to hang out with outside of school, nor have i felt comfortable talking with people online, dominantly because of living in a house i'm not exactly comfortable, which is one reason why i've become a shut in hermit that doesn't seek much social interaction. There are some positive merits. Just texting people on discord is enough social interaction to keep me going, i don't get lonely that easily. And, as a more fragile point, i believe i missed out on "the golden age of multiplayer". I never really made friends in the few online games i played, but i also don't have that nostalgia, and frustration of things changing in that side of gaming. But i do believe there's still plenty of ways to gain friends and interact with people even if the game itself doesn't particularly promote it. Even i have made tons of great friends just by hanging out in discord servers for games i enjoy a ton. Which is a win in my book.
wow, this is some pretty quality content! you're pretty underrated for the stuff you make :] (also nice choice of music and gameplay from the finals, that's super based hehe)
I heard the streamer Vaush talk about how auto matchmaking basically destroyed a lot of communities in games like TF2. His reasoning was that you used to have to find servers that you like and purposefully choose them, and now you didn't. I thought "Oh, that's like.... the disappearance of third places in games like shooters. Interesting" Imagine my surprise when this video showed up in my recommended.
i've been talking about this more from an anticapitalist perspective SO MUCH on stream lately that it was nice to see a video offering a more solution-oriented, humanist persepective. thanks for that! subbed immediately :3
Yeah I was surprised that the vid didn't have explicit anti capitalist themes while also talking about this. It seems that the only people who engage with this subject are explicitly anti capitalist, so I thought it was something somewhat tied to the ideology
This came up in the Work based Games video as well, because people told me I was referencing ideas of Marxism with work alienation a lot in that video, and that wasn't an accident. Neither is this here, honestly. The reasons I wasn't so explicit are two fold: 1.) I have a much more anti-capitalist video in the works that I was expecting to come out before this, and I didn't want to hammer on that point two videos in a row. Some bad news got in the way for the other one... not sure when it'll be done. 2.) Gamers get scared of "political words," so I try to avoid using them. I still want to talk about these things, but I'm not sure how to actively reference the political text in a way that won't make a certain type of audience member try to find my address, if you catch my meaning.
My favorite and most memorable memories of any shooting games i've played have been the ones where we don't play the gamemode at all and just mess around. Making conga lines or drawing with bullets or paints on the floors/walls or just plain jumping around.
I love games like tf2, deep rock galactic and fistful of frags because it truly often feels like youre just hanging out but you also can still try hard to accomplish a goal.
Shoutout to the team of Mordheim players who played as peasants with sticks (medieval soccer hooligans) that threw rocks and bum rushed fully armored knights.
The game is named Mordhau actually, for those interested. There was a tournament where the announcers got baffled that one team went with glasscannon meme loadouts and dunked on their meta build opponents. It speaks volumes about just how fun the community is and how it's best enjoyed by playing into the humor instead of just winning; experienced players would even stop fighting just to humor a joke and an honor system was built around defending players who just want to play the ingame instruments.
YES! I love that you implied, that in order to communicate in the first place, you most often need some kind of downtime. In order to use text chat or to be able to casually talk, you actually have to find an opportunity to do these things. I remember Pre-Heist Lobbies in Payday 2, where you would just write stuff with the other dudes while another would be preparing his weapons or use the Preplanning table. Ironically Payday 3 now lacks proper text chat, emotes or callouts, wich make communication impossible. DRG, Helldivers, Lethal Company and many others seem to revitalize the trope of "Lobby Waiting is actually part of the gameplay" and that makes me really optimistic. Like you mentioned in your video, voice- and text chat in e-sport games or any pvp game for that matter rarely have any kind relaxed chatter. (This may be because larger Teams, due to the fact that only 2 people can converse simultaneously) As a lost note, i'd like to say, that i always loved proximity chat. I don't have social anxiety but rather social incompetence. In a chat of 5-20 people, be it voice or text, i tend to unintentionally interrupt others or speak out of cue and what i say only concerns like one other guy there. With local-chat i only speak to the ones, that actually HAVE to hear what i'm saying. +Doppler Effect in any game is GOATED Great Video. Haven't seen Social Interactions examined in a long time
I have tons of online friends that I have not talked to in years at this point. I have steam and discord filled with people I dont know because of some phase or a time I was into a particular game and made lots of "friends" along the way.
Mordhau is an incredibly hard game to play well. I personally prefer the engineer role placing spawns behind enemy lines creating chaos. You can play any way you wish and the community is nice enough that a silly dance can have the enemy team forget your escapades.
for fighting games the battle hub in street fighter 6 and the arcade lounge in tekken 8 both serve as a third place for people to congregate and chat with the prospect of fighting groups of people in a server and watching replays or spectating matches while you wait for the matches to conclude.
I made friends gaming when I was around 12 talk to them everyday. Stopped doing that for a long time just cause I had real life friends. Then when Among Us came out it was crazy, I just stepped out a little and was getting invited to lobby everywhere and talking to strangers in my grneral area.. It was funny and fun
Interesting video. This makes me think of the Third Space that exists in League of Legends. Yes... the ultra toxic competitive world of League of Legends has a third space... Coop vs. AI!! Even in casual modes like ARAM and URF have toxicity and needless stress. Coop vs. AI Intermediate mode is where players go to learn more about their character or just have fun w/o the worry of getting berated for making wrong decisions. Getting matches is easy and often faster than regular modes and making friends while discussing the game and life becomes natural. Has been a great way to have fun without stress.
I’ve never been an online multiplayer kinda guy. Not a fan. Always been a single player dude. However, multiplayer games that made teamwork a priority focus were games where I unexpectedly made friends. Like The Last of Us Multiplayer on the PS3.
Halo Infinite Forge mode - through the custom game browser, I tried Halo Parkour... working my way through it with in-game chat, a guy helped me through some of the segments... then I ended up helping him through one. Eventually, we came across another and the three of us all helped each other. Then two guys came by to help out that had already made it all the way through. Ended up playing it for hours because it really did give a third-place type feeling... just casually trying to complete each portion.
my two recomendations here are Project Zomboid and Tribes of Midgard; Tribes doesn't have a large playerbase right now, but every game has you go into a world with several other strangers to survive ragnarok, everyone has to work together and even if you jump in with friends, stranges can and will join your game. There is a sandbox mode with closed servers, but in the traditional Saga mode, strangers are always playing together. Zomboid is one of these survival rpg sandboxes, one of the best at that, playable in single player or online multiplayer. It's easy to set up a game with friends, but Zomboid comes with a built in server finder, allowing you to join big servers with lots of players, building post apocaliptic communities, pvping, co-oping, looting, surviving, and most importantly: chilling out and chatting to other players while doing things around the base like organizing, excercise, cooking, reading etc
me personally, i loved all the moments of random yelling in cod and genuinely made me happy when they had it in mw2019 it’s one of the things that i look forward to when i play games with open mics bc it grounds me back to “it’s just a game it’s not serious”
I think the game foxhole does HLL's shtick but better, the logistics is more in depth, it's more accessible for solo players (at least a little) and death isn't quite so punishing so you can goof around a little more
I think this is why MMOs are still so popular today after all these years, though many of which are dying off to be fair, but still enough of a playerbase to not completely fade out. Mainly because in an MMO you can do PvE or PvP content or whatever, yes, but you can also just... sit.. and hang out with people in a common space in nearly every MMO. Just sit and chat and make friends. Like a public park. A literal digital third space. Nearly all other games don't give you a place to do this apart from in game chat in the middle of a match which will inevitably be more focused on the game itself rather than just chatting. but when you're in these spaces in an MMO, there typically isn't much to do other than non-combat / typical things anyway like fishing or whatever, so most people just chat to pass the time. It works well in these kinds of games. I think it's why people often gravitate towards these games when they've got no other outlets for socializing. In part I think discord replaced this for a lot of people and could be why we're seeing the death of MMOs since it's losing the one thing also that made people gravitate towards them in the first place. But discord also has a bad habit of making servers where 90% of people in them aren't even active let alone talk, and the ones who do talk just gatekeep and form echo chambers most of the time. So it's hard to break into these spaces and truly feel welcome, but that's a whole different debate. Interesting topic at least. I'm sad to see the internet feel more and more isolating as the rest of the physical world has. It truly is a depressing time in this regard.
While I agree with all of the games mentioned in this video, it's a shame that the games that USED to encourage this "third space" atmosphere (Halo, COD, Battlefield, the list goes on) has shifted away from that. Instead, they chose to become cold, sterile, and borderline antisocial experiences despite being multiplayer games. I still love the 3 games I mentioned to this day and thoroughly enjoy their latest entries from a gameplay perspective (not so much from a monetary perspective though... but that's a conversation for another day) I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss that sheer sense of community and safety in the days of Halo 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, and Battlefield 3 for example. Great video as always my friend! ❤️
The biggest driver of the death of the third space is absolutely 100% capitalism. The concept of a third space inherently does not involve people either being productive or necessarily consuming. Thus, capitalism has absolutely no need for them, because to capitalism, the _only_ things humans should EVER be doing are either generating profits through their work, or generating profits by consuming goods and services. This is why so many "third spaces" online are filling up with ads, why video games that have "third space" qualities are becoming aggressively monetized, and why kids have nowhere to go hang out irl these days. Because capitalism doesn't need you to hang out. Capitalism just needs you to work and consume. It's also why you'll find so many indie games that don't work like that.
I think one huge difficulty of making new friends not talked about in this video is the more you are marginalised, the more "conventional" ways to make friends on the internet can be really really complicated, for all the violence you can receive. And so marginalised groupes will tend to organise things very privately to protect themselves, but it means that when you are part of that general group but you do not have anyway to enter those private stuffs, it's the choice of "playing with strangers but taking a huge risk and having to shield yourself a huge amount" or "playing alone"
THIS IS VERY TRUE. This completely slipped past me (due to my white maleness), but it's so pertinent to the conversation. My fianceé likes playing the same games as me, but finds the possibility of sexual harassment online to be rather daunting, so we have to try and make our own friend groups in these games, for safety.
That completely slipped my mind, and it's a very good point. I would like to pin this comment, if you're alright with that.
@@superdude10000 it's totally okay by me! thank you for asking
@@superdude10000 As a trans person, amongst other labels, this is a huge reason for my hiding away in discords on the regular. Even when people aren't being openly phobic or hateful, it's still a lot of emotional and mental energy to deal with folks who might be indifferent, or just flatly not understand what's going on for folks like us.
@@digger4400 for sure. Gamers can be pretty nasty, as a general rule. That's why splatoon is a great example of the positives and negatives of this. It's hard to find genuine connections, but its community is one of the most diverse BECAUSE it allows people of different creeds to exist amongst each other, and bigots are none the wiser. Safety is important!
getting out of my closet myself, yeah. I'm lucky to have a supportive friend group though, in an extremely homo- and trans- phobic country, no less
These games do scratch that "3rd place itch". I remember when I was playing Valheim with friends during lockdown, one of my friends was getting up to make a cup of tea for her and her husband, and she reflexively asked if I wanted one, while she was up; she had seen me traipsing around camp as I consolidated our storage and her brain had coded me as someone who was there.
She felt very silly for it, but I found it fascinating, as she had inadvertently articulated a huge chunk about what I had loved of the game - that being able to exist in the same space, working on our own stuff, it made people feel real and present in a way many of us were craving.
Proximity chat is literally my favorite feature a game could add
It's worth enduring the toxic trash talk just to hear "gg" or roleplaying.
@@planetwomanizzifr. Feels so nice to have a good teammate that talks kindly
So many games would be infinitely better with proximity chat, it just makes the game so much more funny if you want to use it. I wish it was in The Finals
@@TheWarden04yea bro they shit would go hard fr
Thats why i love playing battlebit remastered
I met my best friend during a random day in the game "FOXHOLE", when I rescued an abandoned tank and took it to the back lines to repair it. That day I told myself I would play only one life. After I die, I would disconnect. But I manage to survive in that tank for four hours. During that time, one the trips back to the factory to resupply and repair, I bounded a lot with this random I found on the side of the road, who eventually became my friend in real life.
Great game, I would totally recommend it. Great community with proximity chat, and tons of new people to meet.
Foxhole is great. Don't forget to commend your logi.
A huge factor in all this is the effemeral quality of multiplayer lobbies nowadays. Most games are matchmaking only (and a lot of them break up the lobby as soon as the match is done). Without server browsing it's tough to build a consistent community because you rarely see the same people more than once or if you do it's so rare that it doesn't even register.
Yes, the death of the game server list, with critical "last played" and favorites plays a huge role. This was what made Team Fortress 2 so special to me. U always played the same 2-4 server and after a while knew a lot of nicks by name.
this reminds me, i loved the feature in overwatch where after a match, members of a team could opt in to form a group with the others on their team. i don't know if that feature is still in the game, but it was great, i think
I love this excuse, because it's so far from the actual truth that it's almost painful.
Almost every game comes with this exact feature. They're just called "custom lobbies" and are given to you with the base game rather than "servers" and requiring either $11 USD a month or an entire extra computer and internet router.
@@deadersurvival4716 modern custom game lobbies are absolutely not the same as a server list lol.
@@LauraLovesHugs Why not?
You can’t understand how happy I was to hear that you weren’t going to explain what Minecraft was in this video. In a sea of UA-cam videos that pad out watch time with redundant summary, you are appreciated.
Respectfully, there was who-knows-how-long minutes spent about the war game, without the context of the Third Place discussion.
@@bc4198 yeah i came to the comments specifically to see if anyone had a thing to say on why a quarter of this video is just a hell let loose basic tutorial.
Hi, I'm the OP of that tumblr post actually! This was a good video.
In the post, I mention getting into tf2 in 2009, and I feel it's worth mentioning that tf2 offered (and still does) a variety of different experiences outside of the core game. And even then, the core game itself gives you tremendous freedom in how you play it.
Back when I first got into it, finding a server wasn't an automatic process. It meant actually considering what you wanted and searching for that. It was clunky and unintuitive, but once you got around that, there was so much the game had to offer. And servers weren't just a map and a player count-they had names and their own custom content. Were they always good? God, no, but those are just some of the little things you don't see as much/ever in modern multiplayer games.
It's not like this feature is gone in tf2; it's not the primary way people join games anymore. Instead, it's been replaced with a more modernized system that places you in a queue and finds a game based on what maps you want it to search for. The server exists less as a space for you to search for and visit on your own and instead as a vessel for one to several matches before leaving and never seeing that group of people again. And even if you do go out of your way to find a community server on your own, you're more likely to actually meet someone by joining the discord associated with the server than hanging around in it.
As much as I bemoan monetization and busy-work-skinner-box retention nonsense in that post (and I'm sure that's what most people gravitate toward complaining about as well), this video really gets at the core of one of my biggest issues with modern multiplayer. A lot of games seem to disincentivize Just Hanging Out, and that's criminal. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to suggest how to fix it. Times change, what can ya do. Great video again!
I recently got into vr gaming and it feels like what games used to feel like a decade or two ago now. Almost everyone has a mic on and a lot of games require some sort of communication. I’ve already made several friends playing casual games like mini golf, bowling or ping pong. Not to mention some of the biggest games being social hubs like vrchat or rec room.
What are some of the VR games you've been playing?
YES. I have absolutely noticed when I'm playing games like Pavlov or VR Chat that there's way more conversation than games like Counter-Strike or TF2 nowadays. Everyone has a mic attached to their face, and it's on by default. It makes it so the "barrier for entry" into a conversation is extremely low. I think the whole "gaming has become more toxic" is on more of a game-by-game basis. If you want to have a more casual conversational game, you have to actively look for those games and even specific game modes. In Pavlov if you join the Search and Destroy games, you are much more likely to have a "sweaty" experience, whereas TTT is much more relaxed and people are usually just goofing around.
@@GoldDylPikel AND, the higher bar for entry in VR might filter out some toxicity.
Thank god someone mentioned VRChat
I've met some of the most braindead and hateful people on rec room but I can't stop playing it. It's hella toxic and not safe for kids to play but its overrun with them during the day.
Just wanna chime in that Phasmaphobia was launched by a 1 person dev team too. Crazy how an earnest creator who wants to offer a game where people can have fun are received leagues better than Triple A cash grabs
I wish they would allow mods
Lethal Company too! That game was made entirely by _one_ guy. (Zeekerss)
Beyond this concept of games AS third spaces, I think it’s also worth considering third spaces truly IN games, commonly found in MMOs. Stuff like The Tower in Destiny 1/2. A neutral social space where you can just pass the time goofing off walking around. I really liked the Headquarters in CoD WW2 for this reason
I would have to agree. I have made many good friends with people I met in both Destiny and Final Fantasy XIV, most through just jumping/crouching at each other in social hubs, but some through LFG postings for endgame raiding too.
Idk, my experience with that is that everybody is just in their own Discord chat and even if you find someone who isn’t, nothing comes from it.
Like, you’ll hit it off, but never meet up much
@@SpinningSideKick9000yeah I feel that too. I call it fast friends, like fast food, where you get a fleeting moment to socialise then it's gone and you're back to your old state.
OMG yes! Was hoping he'd get into that more. Guild Wars 2 had some great spaces in the cities. I forget it was called, but there was this one city (a giant pyramid?) where you could fall into this crack, and there was a whole group of folks that would just mess around there, lol
And ofc freaking Yulgur's Inn (?) from Adventure Quest Worlds was fantastic as a place to just chat and go from there.
ff11 also has a lot of great third spaces as well, especially due to linkshells and smaller communities meaning everyone ends up getting to know each other somehow the more people play
Over the course of the pandemic I had fallen into the rabbit hole of good urban planning for some reason (Not Just Bikes was the first channel I watched) so I was familiar with the Third Place concept and was immediately intrigued by this video's title. Loved every minute of it. This was a fantastic essay!
Similar overlap for me! Game dev + progressive urban planning = here! 🧑🎤
same bro lol I live in Houston now and BOY 😂 😂
I think this happened to a lot of people in the pandemic.
When I first heard of a third place my first thought was "Isn't that basically video games@
I know you mentioned Deep Rock Galactic, but it should be mentioned that you can match up with strangers and help them with their assignments. It garners a huge friendly community that supports each other and buys each other drinks.
This. DRG is "oldschool" as hell in many ways:
private servers, server browsing, modding support, and full coms. It filters out the worst "toxic tryhards" by purely encouraging co-operation, partly by removing competition.
@@GugureSux Somehow, online matchmaking for Left 4 Dead 2 is more tryhardy than DRG because the survivors will just kick you if you're not doing good enough for some reason. I still don't get it.
i joined a random lobby in drg and got kicked for having a bad load out lol
@@CanyonF I never experienced that honestly...
Multiplayer games are such a double edged sword for me. On one hand, I met my best friend playing Destiny 2. She really changed my life, I even moved in with her and my life couldn't be better.
But on the other hand, wow is it hard to play multiplayer games when you're a minority in some shape or form. Being a trans woman, ive experienced some of the most vile harassment in online multiplayer games.
I wish your video touched on this, because its a very real struggle to play multiplayer games when gaming communities at large tolerate harassment against minorities. Its a genuine struggle to make connections with people in gaming when theres so much bigotry out there :c
My biggest frustration is that these games almost don't facilitate a 3rd place that you can actually prod around in and find friends. And games like Roblox, Fortnite, Vrchat are these almost purely GAME or SOCIAL platforms that you have to choose, and when social interaction is a separate removed choice from a base game it often ends up not happening at all.
Little big planet almost had something amazing, where playing multiplayer experiences as simple as a platformer or puzzle could be experienced with 3 other random players. Mind you the experience itself was made by some random player who decided making a level would be fun. Whether or not the person who made the level made it for co-op, many people could play at the same time and just hangout. I think that sort of design, with a more spatial proximity chat could really lead to a new genre of hangout spaces that aren't only games to be competitive or havve fun in. But a place to actually make friends and form bonds.
I'm only 24, but as I got older, I spent less time in online spaces than I did when I was a teen or even at 20 years old. Part of it was because make money now so I can buy the single player games that I want and I have less time to play those games (the backlog is backlogging), but also because those spaces that I spent most time in became "corrupted." A more literal example of this is kik and games like League, but one that is less so for me is RDO with R* refusing to show it the same love that the community has for it. And, I get these feelings even more on PC. On console it felt easier to me to add and be added as friends.
Recently I've been feeling lonely and isolated and tried going on a "soul search" to try and recapture that magic that I felt with a cross of good gameplay and good, wholesome company that I was able to find even while playing the notoriously toxic LoL, but I'm unsuccessful. I'm way too shy to be the first turn on the mic. I also thought about streaming but I run into the same problem. I've isolated myself so much to the point where any game where I can actually talk with people has become horror.
I’m sorry to hear that bro! Feel for you. Hell Let Loose has a great and open community.
I feel you, mate. I also shy away from turning on the mic, and have issues with loneliness, so I f**king GET you on that front. That's a lot of the reason why I end this video that way: it's a call to action for me as much as anyone else.
I hope you find something that makes it easier, mate.
ironically tarkov has seemed very similar in this way (to hell let loose I mean). Although both games are on the more laborious milsim side of things, so they’re not for everyone. However, their nature as games being ones with styles and features that only are attractive to people that genuinely want to play them, as opposed to being a mass phenomenon that all sorts of good and bad people play for various reasons. All I can recommend is to find a smaller game with a bit of a learning curve that actually interests you, that way you can easily find dedicated, more chill people who always love another person embracing their passion game too
Recently I've been playing games like hell let loose, insurgency, and battlebit, all games with VoIP chat and a sense of community. Communication in the first 2 is incredibly important while battlebit is just a fun goofy time.
I came down to the comments to mention Battlebit Remastered, and Starship Troopers Extermination as other good mentions.
Great video, I love how in depth you get with the analysis! One game I think that approached third-space socializing really uniquely Sky: Children of Light. It's an exploration-based game that requires you to be put into a public server from the beginning, and you're encouraged, both by the mechanics of the game and the tutorial of the game itself, to interact with other people. The only catch is that you can't talk to them. You collect emotes and can eventually unlock a chat function on an individual basis with other players if you pay in-game money, but, before that, most friendships built in that game are just made by virtue of being in the same space together and deciding on a whim to help eachother out or participate in whatever shenanigans happen to be going on. It's genuinely one of the most welcoming game communities I've ever seen, I think in large part because of the way the game itself is designed
I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention anything about VRchat, even through just PC. It's almost entirely third places, though some community made worlds include games.
Not uncommon to get called a slur in VRChat if you're not careful with your safety settings though.
@@kev2034 That's just about the same risk for any game though, I'd say, but when it does happen I just ignore people(plus you can block people!).
I haven't had too much trouble with that though? Shrug.
Exploring Organism with my long-distance partner is the closest thing I've had to a vacation in my life. It was magical.
Hell Let Loose coming to gamepass was the best thing for third spaces - proximity chat, bigger squads, longer match times, keeping lobbies together after match, and slower gameplay make it very easy to make friends. More mature player base too that actually enjoys chatting for the sake of chatting
yeah even though there’s a headache that comes from inexperienced players gamepass is gonna be great in the long run for HLL
I was gonna bring up HLL - I think another reason that it's such a good example is its information hierarchy - communication is heavily encouraged by the game mechanics and mechanics encourage most people to communicate.
14:04 Peter Griffin assailing an armor-clad knight with a halberd is absolutely phenomenal
Lately, I’ve found a ‘third place game’ in ARMA 3, specifically with the Antistasi mod. The game is a mechanics heavy simulation game much like Mordhau and HLL, but open world. The mod puts you in the place of your usual enemies; insurgents. Being a milsim and starting with next to nothing, it really embodies the adage, “hours of boredom punctuated with sheer terror”. Those hours of boredom really aren’t all that boring when you spend them chatting and socializing with your virtual battle buddies.
I would like to share a story from my time with Mordhau.
I joined a dueling server to practice my 1v1 duels got in a few fights but than me and this guy (who was actively roleplaying king Arthur from Montypython and the holy grail) started a duel with me. at first it was just a normal interaction, emote to say ready, than fight to the death, after i won the first duel he came back for a rematch. this time i launched my long swards pommel at him, for 1 damage, and it was on. we dueled easily 20 times each wining around 10 and since than we've become friends elsewhere as well.
Was pleasantly surprised to stumble across this video! I'd like to chip in some other games worth looking into for those interested in this whole idea.
First and foremost: Tower Unite on PC. It's basically Hang Out: The Game. There's a hub space you can go to meet up with others and play a variety of mini-games, as well as micro-games in an arcade or casino area. Alternatively you can just chill out and fish, watch UA-cam videos together in a theatre, or chill in a lounge and put on some music by pulling from UA-cam. All of the mini-games, micro-games, and fishing goes to getting cash to deck out a condo where you can go and just hang out with friends privately and do some of the same stuff as in the hub space, just without randos barging in.
Besides Tower Unite, there's some VR games that are also basically Hang Out: The Game, albeit with the added hurdle/limits involved of being VR-first, such as VR Chat and Rec Room. The former can be played without VR, but it's clearly not really where it shines, to the point that for awhile it didn't have text chat (and maybe still doesn't? I'm not too clear on that tbh), and there's even some divide among VR Chat people surrounding text chat in general (i.e. text chat breaking immersion to some). Rec Room is more similar to Tower Unite in terms of having more play experiences, but I think it may skew towards younger audiences similar to Roblox or Fortnite.
Beyond these, though, I think it's worth looking outside of the commercial space, e.g. MineClone2 built on Minetest is essentially a volunteer, community-built Minecraft. Probably rough around the edges, _but_ it's free and the code is open for people to learn to mess around with, and there's a range of interesting mods for it as well.
There's also arena shooters like Xonotic, Warfork, or Trepidation for those into fast-paced first-person shooters. Or for those less reflex-oriented, one might check out real-time strategy games like Beyond All Reason, Zero-K, or any of a variety of others built on either the Recoil or Spring Engines, or OpenRA. Further still, there's turn-based strategy titles like FreeCiv or Battle for Wesnoth on PC or Unciv on Android. All of these are either primarily multiplayer or have online/local~LAN multiplayer as options. I mention all these despite them having lower player counts, which may seem counter to the idea of meeting others, to remind people that there's arguably a greater potential for third places/spaces online than offline, given the multitude of complicating factors involved in establishing & maintaining such places offline, from leases to utilities to maintenance, all of which costing substantially more compared to online costs.
Trick with online spaces is raising awareness of the options available, and the possibility of spinning them up.
Sky: Children of the Light is a charming social multiplayer game and makes for a great third space. Developed by That Game Company, the developers of Journey.
I was so glad when I realized it had come to steam even if it is only technically out as a demo.
I played this game at launch and met my best friend through a chat room (separate from the game). We played a lot together, and then moved on from it and play other games now. It’s been a strong friendship of almost 4yrs now
hell lets loose sounds a lot like planetside 2, i might have to check it out, thanks for mentioning it - on the broader topic, i wanted to speak a bit on my experiences in vrchat. it has a lot of the same push-pull between going to public worlds or hanging out with already established friend groups, with a rather interesting mix of random hangout spots, chill social spots, more structured group organizations, even stuff like community language or dance lessons. the only core feature is proximity chat and everything else is up to world or avatar creators, so folks do a lot with it
lately i've been getting more and more into spending private time, with those i'm close with - but when i think back about the times i liked the most . . . it was jumping into random public lobbies, chatting up strangers, and getting to know folks. there's definitely something to be said about putting yourself out there, even if there's a risk of embarrassment (or for a trans woman with a rather bad voice like me, harassment). it's not always great, but often it ends up being rather rewarding
I miss planetside's hayday.
I've got hope. 3 is supposedly on the way and we're in a co-op renaissance right now. If it drops it's trailer soon *we win!*
There was a great moment in the new cod i had with some randoms, i can’t remember what we were queuing up for but people were talking in the lobby and one person said look at you guys with all your fancy outfits and me in my plain jane setup, and i said you are here to remind us where we all came from, and the lobbies general response was so positive and nice, it blew me away, it was so heartwarming not a single person said anything bad about his basic load out, and everyone was genuinely positive talking about their first couple of days playing until they finally figured out wich costume they finally wanted, it was like stories at a campfire, then we wished each other good luck in our next game, it was such a nice moment especially in a game that can be so toxic sometimes.
While I was listening to you talk about hell let loose and it’s strict hierarchical structure that is built into the game, I was reminded of foxhole, which is like a ww2 big collaborative effort, and nobody is really in charge, yet you see certain players leading entire platoons, or one guy running the whole colonial technology scheme. Kinda cool to think about how two games with similar premises take different approaches and end up in similar endpoints
I only just discovered your content, and it's quite entertaining/interesting. I just wanted to say that games relying on discord servers for you to be able to socialize with others from the community is very true and it's the bane of the third space aspect of games. One great example that comes to mind is Terraria. I'd love to be able to just jump on, and just find players to socialize with as I do, yet I always have to go to their discord, and spend a lot of time looking for someone to even play with, then it's just a huge commitment actually starting a playthrough with someone where it's hard to fill servers with a bunch of people so you just find yourself just abandoning a lot of randoms. This cycle can be kind of repelling compared to just playing with friends or even alone, and I think that the game would cherish from having a server list.(I do understand that might be hard or even impossible to do in terraria's case where it relies on servers being hosted by player's clients). PS.: There are very few dedicated servers but not many players actually get to find any of those because of all of these complications.
I think you end off on a really important note. So many games don't have the functionality now to join random games without actively seeking them and even if they do there is a lack of voice chat features that can facilitate the conversations needed to create friendships. So many communities are solely on discord now meaning you have to put yourself out there. It really can add to the friction of having these experiences and create the feeling that multiplayer games just aren't as good anymore. Loving the channel, keep up the good work like this.
GMOD used to be a big one of mine. Just chilling in Gmod Cinema putting up videos, or some wiremod server making weird contraptions.
Gaming "Third Places" have been becoming worst recently...
aside from the typical "Xbox Live Kid" Toxic behavior, most games never seem to encourage players to organically work together towards a common goal with minimal communication.
Which leads some to adopt the "Try-Hard" mentality, grinding by themselves only to go online and boast about their high ranks and high skill that they gained ( mostly. ) through their hard work, blaming new players for poor play instead of encouraging and teaching new people. ( even i do that sometimes... )
One of the reasons why i still make low-level characters in Elden Ring is to be summoned by others in Limgrave, the very starting area of the game.
helping low-level people, that i very rarely meet again, and then having some minimalistic socialization through very vague emotes is probably the most meaningful and wholesome interactions i ever had in Modern Gaming.
( oh and the skill-ceiling is quite high, so try-hards are easier to spot... and easy to bail on. )
Kinda similar thing here;
I occasionally just log into an old, nearly dead, mmo I used to play just to see if theres any new players around who I can help out with tips or getting some starting gear together.
I dont like pvp though so I generally avoid those kinds of environments, which I think are probably the worst breeding grounds for toxicity.
@@TheSpeepbut breeding is good, it's the ultimate goal of life
I think its more so that games have become more "niche-ified" (I forgot the term). Something like Counter Strike has transformed from the game that everyone plays to a more Esport-centric "sweaty" game, that means when you don't play your hardest, people become "toxic". You have to now search for games that specifically are designed and meant for casual play. That's why I think people hold TF2 in a higher regard than Overwatch, since (objectively) Overwatch is a more competitively viable game, and doesn't embrace the casual fun nearly as much as TF2 does. I think the whole "people are too toxic nowadays" is a more of a problem of the Third Places that you are venturing in. Trust me, I have played Apex Legends and CS:GO for a combined 500 hours, I know for a fact that people can be toxic. However, I have also had an absolute blast playing Pavlov and TF2 with some of the goofiest people I have ever met online.
You just have to find the places where the casual people congregate to have a casual fun time, and if you want a competitive experience, you have to seek out the competitive games. It's not like 2004 where you can play Modern Warfare and have people from all walks of life wanting vastly different experiences playing the same game anymore. Esports becoming "recognized" has made competitive games exponentially more competitive, so I think that's where the toxicity and anti--social-ness resides nowadays. Steer clear of those.
Some of my best social experiences in games have been non-verbal.
Dark Souls summoning was one, among others. You don’t really make a connection to meet those people later, but it definitely feels genuine and wholesome
@@w花b
in case you are too dense to realize: you are part of the problem.
The survival crafting scene recently got Nightingale, a Victorian -era fantasy game about exploring fae realms and braving the wilderness in order to find humanity's last stronghold. The game can be played alone, but also benefits from group play and seems to have systems in place that allow for you to encounter and interact with random people, though I haven't been to any of the hub worlds yet. The bit I've played has been fun, if a bit rough, since it's an early access title and there's still stuff that's not done.
i'd be playing valheim all the time if not for the grind. an entire vein of copper made like 3 full sets of armor when i played with my friends. that rock would have yielded literally millions of kgs of ore irl but in the game it barely gets you a handful of resources.
I think the perfect social game is one called "Sky" its purely made to be that 3rd space where gameplay mechanics demand cooperation or give great benefits when included. Only shame is there is no voice chat. All text based. Still made many friends there tho. VR Chat is another good example.
there being almost no community servers in modern game is why these game feel like shit. These games are designed around the fact you have no control over the server, the game or who you play with. You will play the game who the devs want you to, they will do competitive match making even in casual and you will never see those people again unless you somehow bond with them over one game or somehow see them again. Modern games are worse people who played community servers will remember how those games felt. Like in tf2, you can go to one server and see the same people over and over again and bond with them if you choose.
Greed and competitive cancer has ruined these games for anything than making money and making it a competitive sport and thus making more money.
I remember playing Mordhau on New year's Eve back in 2021 during covid, and having a blast with everyone else in that lobby, chatting, chilling by the bard players, dumping on horse users and having duels. Games, at least some of them, are becoming third spaces, and as long as we keep a healthy balance of third spaces IRL and in game, im all down for it.
This video is kind of a more-refined way of describing a phenomenon I had been noticing for a while, but fully-recognized after seeing how different WoW Classic was from OG Vanilla WoW back in the day. People just don't appreciate being in a virtual world full of real people anymore. WoW Classic was full of people that just wanted to optimize the fun out of the game and play the meta, even people like me, to an extent, that usually stop and smell the roses. What I realized was, at least in part, a symptom of the disease of people not using MMORPGs as third spaces anymore, which is a crying shame. There used to be a shared "it's a big world out there" feeling that nobody appreciates anymore.
My online third space is a game called SCP secret lab. It has proximity chat and scary monsters just like phasmo and lethal co, but you can also just hop on a random server and have a good time. all the spectators have a chat and I have made so many friends on that game. If you are looking for a different game besides the ones mentioned in the video then you should consider giving it a try.
Thanks imma give it a try
im amazed op didnt mention DRG beyond the passing rock and stone mention. it works as a great third space game for meeting new people.
I'm a committed and passionate fighting game player!
After recently watching and reading information about this "Third Spaces" framework, I made a realization - the FGC is just one big third space :D
Guilds, groups, clans, discords, forums, online tournaments, friends, rivals, and even sometimes enemies....
And beyond that! OFFLINE TOURNAMENTS. The majority of "local" tournaments are either weekly or monthly, and the communal experience is beyond invaluable.
Majors and big regionals are so exciting too (like Evo as you mentioned), CEO, VsFighting, UFA, Wake Up On Trent etc.
I guess this puts into words how good the FGC is overall for people's mental health :3
I'm in a way stuck in my old 3rd spaces, they died and I don't like the new ones, also just being an adult means it is hard to find time to just spend 3 hours to chill with people.
One of my favorites is just playing TF2 2fort all day on a weekend, chilling dancing, doing stupid stuff, very repetitive, but in a way I could do it all day every day, the problem is that community I loved has changed, I really do think Esports has probably done this, everyone just wants to compete, in most games if you try to be friendly or show obvious non hostile intent, you will be gunned down 99 times out of 100, which really discourages you to keep trying.
Basically what I wanted to comment on. Dedicated servers were an excellent third space, and pretty much all FPS games have moved away from them. There's a lot more focus on winning, optimizing away any bit of downtime, and pushing the community away into third party services. It's turned it all into a second job. TF2 is going to become old enough to drink, and it's still alive. I really think it's because it's the one of the few last FPSes that are actually fun, rather than 'engaging', to play.
Interesting video, and frankly as someone who has seen a decrease in friend-making through games in recent years as well as just an overall change in atmosphere I wonder if I could contribute some additional ideas to this, primarily through my experiences in the past 14 years. Actually, no, add a handful more onto that.
So to start this I was never particularly into online multiplayer shooters (except for those approaching more simulator levels and even then only a bit), so I mostly made online friends through other sorts of games. I can't really speak for the shooter space and how it changed.
In the late 00s this would've been MMOs, primarily those for kids. Even though I didn't retain said friends I do have fond memories of a Pirates of the Caribbean MMO, Wizard 101, and Webkinz. My username actually relates to that time, combining my desire for online privacy with a string of digits that may-or-may-not be my birthday.
But the first time I thought I was really part of an online community; not either tagging along with IRL friends or just kind of doing my own thing in a sea of people doing the same, was ironically enough, Spore. As much as the game itself is singleplayer, the ability to share creations online and comment on other's creations and also make adventures for others play and such really led to an atmosphere of community, of cooperativeness, of everyone learning from everyone else and working on improving. It wasn't perfect; there were bad apples, but the fact that all of this was encouraged through the website of a single player game is frankly kind of mind-boggling, especially in 2008-2010 (I first got it in 2010). Trying to win contests or even just create stories from just sets of creations or via pictures in the adventure editor really made the game something special, and I certainly remember many from the time and can optionally keep in contact with a number of them even if I really haven't been much lately.
A few years later the Kerbal Space Program forum community would offer up a very similar feeling, with the sharing of creations and the ability to do challenges, although the challenges being more "accomplish something ingame" since it came with actual physics, compared to Spore.
At around the same time was the popularization of survival games with online communities not being difficult to find either ingame, through official tools, or through searching server browsers. Of course Minecraft was the big one, but DayZ (the mod) was another big one (as well as other Arma 2 modded gamemodes), and I also got involved in some Starmade servers. These games felt properly like the digital third space; games where you could run into people without every encounter immediately becoming hostile, but with said tension present. I wouldn't really say any DayZ friends lasted into the present, but Minecraft and Starmade definitely did.
But it feels like these spaces largely died late in the decade, largely as Discord came about. I got a handful of months out of ARK:SE that were similar to my DayZ days, but that only happened through a connection I had recently made on Starmade. But really after that, everything moved to Discord, and making friends online changed. I still didn't find it terrible until the past couple of years, but it feels less special now. From the Depths and Planet Coaster did fit in a very similar vein to Spore and KSP, but by the time I really got into them the communities had full moved-onto Discord.
The thing is that in Discord I could still definitely make friends, but part of that came down to navigating the older internet and having old connections. But for someone who would be newer in this space; where the modern ingame or official website options for becoming parts of game's communities is largely dead and what remains is often highly toxic, where what's expected is making friends through Discord servers, I can see the problem.
Honestly want to add on more to this incoherent ramble; some shower thoughts, if you will.
For Spore and KSP, there was frankly something special about interacting with the community through the game’s website or forum that has largely been lost now that everything’s moved to Discord. I suppose the Steam Workshop does work a bit similarly to Spore’s website, but it just feels far more impersonal.
In regards as to why I look back at DayZ mod and early ARK:SE so fondly as “gaming third spaces” is I think to do with the types of interaction you’d get with other players, that’s just difficult to do in other genres, and why of the games mentioned in the video I think only Minecraft has a chance of actually being decent for making new friends rather than playing with established ones. Making friends in games is best done where you are regularly interacting with them, be it a comrade, ally, trading partner, or respected enemy, over the course of hours or preferably days, in a manner where the relation stays consistent. Or emergently flows with whatever happens, rather than being decided by matchmaking RNG. The need to compete for resources and territory without forcing players to be hostile really allows for such conditions to flourish.
I’m nodding off right now so that’s really the body of what I’ve gotta add.
Im glad I clicked this video! I'm very interested in discussions of "third places" but never have heard the discussion extended to gaming. You pointed out something about online gaming that I have been feeling but not really noticing the past few years. Great video and great analysis (and the recommendations are just a cherry on top!). Subscribed :)
Funny that i forgot about you, remebered about you today and then you upload later the same day. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
DO NOT FORGET ABOUT SUPERDUDE OR THE PUNISHMENTS WILL CONTINUE
I've had a lot of memories when I was playing games like team fortress 2 right at the tail end of the golden years of that game were you were just find a community from just joining some random low gravity trade server or friendly server or even just a regular community server, where sometimes people would just play the game. Sometimes people would chill and talk, you would always have the one place you would visit in a community server that you just felt like part of it. No discord, no Skype, no preset anything. Just people joining in to have fun.
It also helps that TF2 is a game that has a lot of player expression in the form of hats, cosmetics, and (uncensored) sprays. That just really let you express yourself, Even the idea of doing gimmicky playstyles is a form of self-expression.
Garry's mod was also a server that had a lot of large servers where the same people would always come around and just goof off, sandbox or darkrp back when it was decent. It's a shame that games these days do not like community servers
I can safely say the only couple of games I've genuinely made long-term friends in are VRChat and Final Fantasy XIV. I can't think of the last time I've made friends outside of these two games. Anything else I play outside of those games are with pre-existing friends.
Hey you asked about other 3rd placeish games and for me it recently has been foxhole by siege camp. It's a massively multiplayer war game where all the logistic is done by players and where most successful assault are the result of players cooperation.
The main difference with hell let loose (apart from the graphics) is that a war is uninterrupted for weeks if not a full month with different server interconnected. Making it viable to stay in one to learn the map and get used to the layout meaning you will probably often meet the same people and thus they become "regulars" as in a bar.
I was a huge forum nerd, there are several games where I still have the top 10 posts over a decade later with pretty much no spamming, I love it. Reddit and then discord really did replace these and I think that discord can be a good place and I've seen many people try to make a 'third place' out of their discord server but it's often hit or miss mostly miss, you need enough people that you can pick up X game and find a few people to join, but also not so many people that most are foreign to you. As you jump game to game this just splits more and more. Streamers kind of have to make their own community so a lot of times you can find it there, but unless you want to follow someone around the same old few games there's no points. I really do wish I got into Bay12Games forum more, every game I've played with those lads has been an amazing experience.
Powerful and informative video.
I always find myself searching for a new game to experience that 'Third Space'.
I can recommend giving Void Crew a look. It's quite early in Early Access, but it's shaping out to be a great coop game with divided up roles incenticising communication, a public group finder and built in voice chat.
I once met a partner in the town square of Bowerstone in Fable 2. I had completed the game within the first few days of it being out and I was bored so I just was giving random gifts to strangers. One of them responded with a gift back to me and we ended up on voice chat for a few hours. It was great.
Personally I love the games that have a town square or lobby where I can meet other people.
With the modern need of hopping onto a third party app, it feels like a lot of extra work for a lot of extra disappointment when scheduling or other factors get in the way of the actual play. It's nice to be able to hop into a game and meet people at my own pace while I'm already gaming.
I think we more games that have a central hub where everyone wanders in and out of at some point and also allow for other interactions other than just chat. Recently I had a good time in ESO and before that, even The Division though to a lesser degree.
We need more third places now more than ever, and the idea of third places in games is really interesting.
This video spoke a lot about what I feel.
I hate match making in video games ever since Gears of War 2 introduced it to me.
I used to enjoy playing the game because of how fun it was to meet people and play with them or leave to find a more suitable lobby.
Now it's just Randoms. It feels like it's almost exclusively indie games that use the old ways to make friends and connections.
Thankfully I have friends I can play with these days, but they are all adults with their own life goals and I can't keep bothering them to get on with me since I game daily and not all of them do anymore.
really good vid, i feel kind of bad for not having friends to play with, but still a good one.
just 1 thing, at the start of the vid at some point the audio was kind of bad for a couple minutes, just stay closer to the mic so that we could hear your awasome voice!
Loved the mordhau shoutout. I played competitive ladder in that game throughout the pandemic, but the RP servers were what kept me. We had entire clan wars with intersecting and disparate discords. Factions would vie for power and influence over the map. Players would log in as different identities.
There’s nothing else like it left after that server died, I’m glad people are still playing the base game.
I wish I wasn't too much of a nervous and anxious person to actually start interacting with people during online games.
Haven't watched yet but seeing the title felt like having a wrapped gift waiting on my desk in the morning I can't verbally express how much this topic appeals to me
31:48 is the highlight of the video. Just kidding, but that is an adorable cat. Good video overall, and I can definitely resonate with the talking points. Shoutouts to Lethal Company and DRG for making that forever-grind that is work feel fun with friends.
Ya as the person who met my partner (and several forever friends) in overwatch lookin for group it makes me so sad it’s gone, someone once called overwatch lfg the bar for people with social anxiety and that rly stuck with me.
Newest third space game is pal world for sure, all of y’all lookin for a fun space with friends u already have that’s the spot! Good vid (:
This is why I haven't made a friend I've interacted with outside of the game I met them in since Overwatch. The original one, not the shitshow of a sequel. The combination of a commonly-used in-game voice chat and an integrated, in-game friends list, as opposed to just a generic steam friends system, meant that when I played that game, not only was I meeting and talking to new people all the time, I was much more likely to add them to my friends list when that meant only adding them as a friend for that game in particular, rather than adding them to the list of friends on steam that I friended once and never talked to again.
I like your videos. This one hits on a lot of ideas I've been thinking about a lot lately. I do feel like your conclusions could use a less ham-fisted approach. But you're doing a great job regardless. Thanks for keeping it up.
An important part of *Third Spaces* you left out, and it doesn't seem intentional, is that ideally they are spaces where you _don't have to pay money to exist in._ So, typically a restaurant or store isn't a third space. First, you're not meant to just _loiter_ (exist) in either without paying money for services, then getting the F O so that someone else can pay to be there for a brief time.
Parks and libraries are good examples, though both may be gone from the town or city you live -- specifically if it's North America -- or be in such disrepair that it's not desirable to be there. Some hobby stores can kinda fill this role but these can be even more rare and equally so are unlikely to let you take up space without some money being exchanged. BUT, there was one in my town for about a decade or more where you could just go, with your friends, and play board games or TTRPGs there without spending a dime. Though, sure, you may still buy some dice or drinks/snacks, or get a copy of a new RPG book. But you didn't have to. Unfortunately it was sold by the former owner and the new owner is looking to squeeze every buck out of it he can... so now it kind of sucks and seem to be drifting away from even being a board game / Tabletop RPG / Tabletop Wargaming store. Also, the new owner is quite concerned about some stuff being woke, so that's not a bad sign or anything.
Pubs are also often considered third spaces. Though I can't say for sure, being in North America. So I guess buying a pint or some food isn't required but seems like it'd be a bit awkward not to do so.
I do find it interesting, though, that besides parks and libraries, my other two examples still include spending money at least some of the time as a part of being there.
A better explanation can be found in this video: ua-cam.com/video/VvdQ381K5xg/v-deo.html
What a great video. This really made me feel nostalgic for how I used to play video games: talking to anyone and always being open to new interactions and friendships. Definitely subscribing
It took me a long time playing Hawken and Helldivers before I could pull my weight well enough ingame to also do my bit in textchat. Hell once or twice I even got to know people well enough to unmute them, look forward to seeing them on return visits and sometime even play at a different time of day to spend longer with them.
The tools available ingame were/are always laughably rough and patchy but the kind of space they created for ad-hoc, very organic 'roleplay' are a real and difficult to replicate asset.
VRChat not being here is crazy, but good video
This video is good. It was a weird experience listening to you talk about valheim, though, for one reason. I’m 80% sure I’ve seen a valheim video before, but I don’t remember. You describing the infrastructure changing colors- I thought of a tree made of barrels? The summoning bosses- a stone mossy brick arena with pillars and a gray sky. (I was listening to this while gardening, couldn’t look at screen)
I had no idea what Mordhau's community is like. This has convinced me I should at least try it once.
Really unfortunate this video came right before Helldivers 2 :') definitely one of the most successful cooperative multiplayer games out there, with a strong community and infinite amount of memes
Finally, somebody who shares my opinion on Phasmophobia. Waiting for my friends to get as bored of it as I am so we can play more Lethal Company.
Damn, this is a really good informative and in depth video, it brings up some things that I haven't really thought about and is very interesting
I have no friends :(
Don't give up
forums don't exist anymore it's all reddit and other garbage SM
For real.
Great video, whats funny is I saw a lot of my friends when you got to your mordhau section of the video. Really funny to see them out of the game
13:29 is so funny 😂. You decapitate the guy, but the other bot wants to get the final blow in. I’m laughing so hard rn
Just finished the video. Just want to say (because it’s not usually commented) good job. Honestly the video held my attention the whole time, not just from snappy editing of the clips, but the structure and voice over of the explanations. Great video.
It's a hard video to relate to personally.
My whole life (the whole 20 years of it) i've never really been that social. I didn't have friends to hang out with outside of school, nor have i felt comfortable talking with people online, dominantly because of living in a house i'm not exactly comfortable, which is one reason why i've become a shut in hermit that doesn't seek much social interaction.
There are some positive merits. Just texting people on discord is enough social interaction to keep me going, i don't get lonely that easily.
And, as a more fragile point, i believe i missed out on "the golden age of multiplayer". I never really made friends in the few online games i played, but i also don't have that nostalgia, and frustration of things changing in that side of gaming.
But i do believe there's still plenty of ways to gain friends and interact with people even if the game itself doesn't particularly promote it.
Even i have made tons of great friends just by hanging out in discord servers for games i enjoy a ton. Which is a win in my book.
Right now Helldivers 2 has really become a 3rd space for me. For friends I have and randoms I meet on Malevelon Creek
wow, this is some pretty quality content! you're pretty underrated for the stuff you make :]
(also nice choice of music and gameplay from the finals, that's super based hehe)
I heard the streamer Vaush talk about how auto matchmaking basically destroyed a lot of communities in games like TF2. His reasoning was that you used to have to find servers that you like and purposefully choose them, and now you didn't. I thought "Oh, that's like.... the disappearance of third places in games like shooters. Interesting" Imagine my surprise when this video showed up in my recommended.
Vaushite detected... And for a good media take?
Rare Vaush W
i've been talking about this more from an anticapitalist perspective SO MUCH on stream lately that it was nice to see a video offering a more solution-oriented, humanist persepective. thanks for that! subbed immediately :3
Yeah I was surprised that the vid didn't have explicit anti capitalist themes while also talking about this. It seems that the only people who engage with this subject are explicitly anti capitalist, so I thought it was something somewhat tied to the ideology
This came up in the Work based Games video as well, because people told me I was referencing ideas of Marxism with work alienation a lot in that video, and that wasn't an accident. Neither is this here, honestly.
The reasons I wasn't so explicit are two fold:
1.) I have a much more anti-capitalist video in the works that I was expecting to come out before this, and I didn't want to hammer on that point two videos in a row. Some bad news got in the way for the other one... not sure when it'll be done.
2.) Gamers get scared of "political words," so I try to avoid using them. I still want to talk about these things, but I'm not sure how to actively reference the political text in a way that won't make a certain type of audience member try to find my address, if you catch my meaning.
@@superdude10000 yeah that's a fine line to walk
My favorite and most memorable memories of any shooting games i've played have been the ones where we don't play the gamemode at all and just mess around. Making conga lines or drawing with bullets or paints on the floors/walls or just plain jumping around.
I love games like tf2, deep rock galactic and fistful of frags because it truly often feels like youre just hanging out but you also can still try hard to accomplish a goal.
And here i was thinking you were gonna talk about bars and parks in videogames. Nice vid!
Shoutout to the team of Mordheim players who played as peasants with sticks (medieval soccer hooligans) that threw rocks and bum rushed fully armored knights.
The game is named Mordhau actually, for those interested.
There was a tournament where the announcers got baffled that one team went with glasscannon meme loadouts and dunked on their meta build opponents.
It speaks volumes about just how fun the community is and how it's best enjoyed by playing into the humor instead of just winning; experienced players would even stop fighting just to humor a joke and an honor system was built around defending players who just want to play the ingame instruments.
This video was beautiful. Thank you!
YES! I love that you implied, that in order to communicate in the first place, you most often need some kind of downtime.
In order to use text chat or to be able to casually talk, you actually have to find an opportunity to do these things. I remember Pre-Heist Lobbies in Payday 2, where you would just write stuff with the other dudes while another would be preparing his weapons or use the Preplanning table. Ironically Payday 3 now lacks proper text chat, emotes or callouts, wich make communication impossible.
DRG, Helldivers, Lethal Company and many others seem to revitalize the trope of "Lobby Waiting is actually part of the gameplay" and that makes me really optimistic.
Like you mentioned in your video, voice- and text chat in e-sport games or any pvp game for that matter rarely have any kind relaxed chatter.
(This may be because larger Teams, due to the fact that only 2 people can converse simultaneously)
As a lost note, i'd like to say, that i always loved proximity chat. I don't have social anxiety but rather social incompetence. In a chat of 5-20 people, be it voice or text, i tend to unintentionally interrupt others or speak out of cue and what i say only concerns like one other guy there. With local-chat i only speak to the ones, that actually HAVE to hear what i'm saying.
+Doppler Effect in any game is GOATED
Great Video. Haven't seen Social Interactions examined in a long time
I have tons of online friends that I have not talked to in years at this point. I have steam and discord filled with people I dont know because of some phase or a time I was into a particular game and made lots of "friends" along the way.
Heya, it's me again.
7:30 You look for what?? You look for what?? Goatzh??
Foiled again
Mordhau is an incredibly hard game to play well. I personally prefer the engineer role placing spawns behind enemy lines creating chaos. You can play any way you wish and the community is nice enough that a silly dance can have the enemy team forget your escapades.
for fighting games the battle hub in street fighter 6 and the arcade lounge in tekken 8 both serve as a third place for people to congregate and chat with the prospect of fighting groups of people in a server and watching replays or spectating matches while you wait for the matches to conclude.
The Valheim music around the two minute mark gave me PTSD. :D
I made friends gaming when I was around 12 talk to them everyday. Stopped doing that for a long time just cause I had real life friends. Then when Among Us came out it was crazy, I just stepped out a little and was getting invited to lobby everywhere and talking to strangers in my grneral area.. It was funny and fun
My favorite part of RDO was walking around a town or just trotting on a horse with friends just talking
@LoveWatcher And you can't forget the horse lmao I legitimately love my in game horse like a real life animal
Interesting video. This makes me think of the Third Space that exists in League of Legends. Yes... the ultra toxic competitive world of League of Legends has a third space... Coop vs. AI!! Even in casual modes like ARAM and URF have toxicity and needless stress. Coop vs. AI Intermediate mode is where players go to learn more about their character or just have fun w/o the worry of getting berated for making wrong decisions. Getting matches is easy and often faster than regular modes and making friends while discussing the game and life becomes natural. Has been a great way to have fun without stress.
I’ve never been an online multiplayer kinda guy. Not a fan. Always been a single player dude.
However, multiplayer games that made teamwork a priority focus were games where I unexpectedly made friends.
Like The Last of Us Multiplayer on the PS3.
Halo Infinite Forge mode - through the custom game browser, I tried Halo Parkour... working my way through it with in-game chat, a guy helped me through some of the segments... then I ended up helping him through one. Eventually, we came across another and the three of us all helped each other. Then two guys came by to help out that had already made it all the way through.
Ended up playing it for hours because it really did give a third-place type feeling... just casually trying to complete each portion.
my two recomendations here are Project Zomboid and Tribes of Midgard;
Tribes doesn't have a large playerbase right now, but every game has you go into a world with several other strangers to survive ragnarok, everyone has to work together and even if you jump in with friends, stranges can and will join your game. There is a sandbox mode with closed servers, but in the traditional Saga mode, strangers are always playing together.
Zomboid is one of these survival rpg sandboxes, one of the best at that, playable in single player or online multiplayer. It's easy to set up a game with friends, but Zomboid comes with a built in server finder, allowing you to join big servers with lots of players, building post apocaliptic communities, pvping, co-oping, looting, surviving, and most importantly: chilling out and chatting to other players while doing things around the base like organizing, excercise, cooking, reading etc
i really love this video but im sad that it opened with tf2 and then didn't discuss it any further :( great video in all other aspects
me personally, i loved all the moments of random yelling in cod and genuinely made me happy when they had it in mw2019 it’s one of the things that i look forward to when i play games with open mics bc it grounds me back to “it’s just a game it’s not serious”
I think the game foxhole does HLL's shtick but better, the logistics is more in depth, it's more accessible for solo players (at least a little) and death isn't quite so punishing so you can goof around a little more
I think this is why MMOs are still so popular today after all these years, though many of which are dying off to be fair, but still enough of a playerbase to not completely fade out. Mainly because in an MMO you can do PvE or PvP content or whatever, yes, but you can also just... sit.. and hang out with people in a common space in nearly every MMO. Just sit and chat and make friends. Like a public park. A literal digital third space. Nearly all other games don't give you a place to do this apart from in game chat in the middle of a match which will inevitably be more focused on the game itself rather than just chatting. but when you're in these spaces in an MMO, there typically isn't much to do other than non-combat / typical things anyway like fishing or whatever, so most people just chat to pass the time. It works well in these kinds of games.
I think it's why people often gravitate towards these games when they've got no other outlets for socializing. In part I think discord replaced this for a lot of people and could be why we're seeing the death of MMOs since it's losing the one thing also that made people gravitate towards them in the first place.
But discord also has a bad habit of making servers where 90% of people in them aren't even active let alone talk, and the ones who do talk just gatekeep and form echo chambers most of the time. So it's hard to break into these spaces and truly feel welcome, but that's a whole different debate.
Interesting topic at least. I'm sad to see the internet feel more and more isolating as the rest of the physical world has. It truly is a depressing time in this regard.
While I agree with all of the games mentioned in this video, it's a shame that the games that USED to encourage this "third space" atmosphere (Halo, COD, Battlefield, the list goes on) has shifted away from that. Instead, they chose to become cold, sterile, and borderline antisocial experiences despite being multiplayer games. I still love the 3 games I mentioned to this day and thoroughly enjoy their latest entries from a gameplay perspective (not so much from a monetary perspective though... but that's a conversation for another day) I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss that sheer sense of community and safety in the days of Halo 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, and Battlefield 3 for example.
Great video as always my friend! ❤️
The biggest driver of the death of the third space is absolutely 100% capitalism. The concept of a third space inherently does not involve people either being productive or necessarily consuming. Thus, capitalism has absolutely no need for them, because to capitalism, the _only_ things humans should EVER be doing are either generating profits through their work, or generating profits by consuming goods and services.
This is why so many "third spaces" online are filling up with ads, why video games that have "third space" qualities are becoming aggressively monetized, and why kids have nowhere to go hang out irl these days. Because capitalism doesn't need you to hang out. Capitalism just needs you to work and consume.
It's also why you'll find so many indie games that don't work like that.