Hey folks! Please see below for the full list of upgrade suggestion made in the video, check out the link in the description for the full decklist, and let me know in the comments if you agree with my changes, disagree, and/or what changes you think I missed! ---------------------------- Proliferate ---------------------------- Cathedral Acolyte >>> Thrummingbird Tireless Tracker >>> Evolution Sage Lily Bowen, Raging Grandma >>> Cankerbloom ---------------------------- +1/+1 Counters ---------------------------- Harold and Bob, First Numens >>> Kami of Whispered Hopes Strength Bobblehead >>> Incubation Druid Piper Wright, Publick Reporter >>> Gyre Sage Harmonize >>> Danny Pink Vault 87: Forced Evolution >>> Fathom Mage ---------------------------- Mill ---------------------------- Fraying Sanity >>> Mindcrank Watchful Radstag >>> Mesmeric Orb Lumbering Megasloth >>> Ruin Crab ---------------------------- Mill Matters ---------------------------- Temple of the False God >>> Zellix, Sanity Flayer Ash Barrens >>> Bloodchief Ascension Mortuary Mire >>> Syr Konrad, the Grim ---------------------------- Recursion ---------------------------- Find//Finality >>> Timeless Witness Hancock, Ghoulish Mayor >>> Dryad's Revival Jason Bright, Glowing Prophet >>> Creeping Renaissance Biomass Mutation >>> Eternal Witness Young Deathclaws >>> Muldrotha, the Gravetide ---------------------------- Removal ---------------------------- Casualties of War >>> Beast Within ---------------------------- Additional Upgrades ---------------------------- Nightkin Ambusher >>> Bruvac the Grandiloquent Strong, the Brutish Thespian >>> Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider Contaminated Drink >>> The Great Henge
Big fan of the upgrades! Very similar to what I was thinking of, Danny Pink especially is just an insanely good card in the deck. One key interaction to note is that Mesmeric Orb makes players do 1 instance of milling 1 card every time they untap a card, so the Mothman sees them all separately. Say your opponent mills 6 creatures off the Orb, Mothman can actually put all 6 counters on himself rather than put 1 counter on 6 creatures. Similarly, Zellix will create 6 tokens instead of just 1. My only potential adds that I really liked in testing are: - Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter & Rishkar, Peema Renegade, to turn all your modified creatures into mana dorks - I've struggled playing the cards I draw, and they have helped me do it - Kodama of the West Tree, to let you ramp a lot and it gives your board Trample. - Cauldron of Souls is a very nice protection piece, as you can use the Mothman's ability to rid yourself of the -1 counters and make the Cauldron able to protect your board again. And for one cheeky add - Willbreaker. Mothman doesn't specify the counters have to go onto your own creatures, so by having a Willbreaker in the list you get to steal from your opponents board pretty consistently. The funniest interaction by far is that Cauldron of Souls can also target your opponents creatures; Willbreaker + Cauldron suddenly turns into an instant speed Insurrection without your opponents realizing it
I don't get the point with soul cauldron . If you put a +1/+1 counter on your creatures, they keep the -1/-1 so you cannot protect them again i think ??
That's fair and I can see it slotting in as another source of ramp, but personally I liked bodies that I can grow with counters and that ramp us so that we can get the mana we need early and then use beefed up bodies to crack into our opponents later. Still, adding in Everflowing Chalice would still make a fine addition if you feel like the build needs a bit more ramp.
I feel like we need a bit more commander protection like heroic intervention, mithril coat (if the budget allows for either), or swiftfoot boots. We're also in blue, why no counterspell? Also, if you wanna splurge, grab the ozolith so you don't lose all those +1 counters in the event of Mothmam being taken out.
Just found your channel and instantly left a Sub, your Cut-Rate decks are awesome! ❤ There often hidden gems i didn't even know existed. Mothmann and rad counters are super fun and finally something "new". Lets say i would raise my budget to 200$ to upgrade the land base and maybe even more other than your optional upgrades, what cards would you add/cut? 😊
Nice! We cut almost the same cards but have different upgrades. Man, I love mtg. Always so many ways to improve decks. I went with Consuming Aberration, Plaxcaster Frogling, Simic Manipulator and Simic Ascendancy for example (and some others). btw keep the great henge hate, its too lovely. :D
was waiting for this one, nice build. i would have gone with a more Mutant build, everyone and their mother is going to go hard on the mill for this one and naturally no one likes playing against mill and that will just bring too much aggro. Side note, more then half the cards you picked has doubled in price.
I just wanna say that I made this build (missing Bruvac, dryad card, and bloodchief ascension) and just want to say this deck JUST puts in work! So many big fat creatures everywhere. If you had to update the lands though, what would you take out and what would you replace?
I brought my upgraded mutant deck to game night last Friday and won with mesmeric orb and bloodchief Ascension. Crazy combo. Add mindcrank and I mean you probably can one turn kill people on their turn when they untap
Rad Counters are a fantastic mechanic on that I’m disappointed they didn’t do a full set for to expand on it. Unlike Poison, players mill cards and lose life for each card then lose a rad counter. My only disappointment is that we didn’t get a Deathclaw Legend, and I’m saying that as a Scalie.
Ripples of Potential would make a fantastic addition as another cheap way to protect our entire creature base from wipes, though at 6 mana Contagion Engine may be a bit too expensive for what it does since we already have a lot of "free" proliferate sources - but can still be good since its technically also a wipe and proliferates twice with each use. If you want to add in either or both, I would recommend the following changes: Power Fist >>> Ripples of Potential Recon Craft Theta >>> Contagion Engine
Ah... right on time. As expected from such a cryptid of a deck! Bad jokes aside, amazing vid as always! Next up... Oh, so THAT'S what's up, doc! As for my vote, well, same one as last time! (I may or may not have forgotten, TBH, I need sleep.) Day 316 of waiting for the face reveal. So, the live-action Fallout's trailer just came out - thoughts?
Glad you enjoyed it and your comments (and bad puns) are always appreciated! Regarding the Fallout live action trailer - it looks pretty good all things considered. CG looks fine, characters look fun, and it appears to have a nice blend of action and comedy. I may just have to check it out if I have the time.
The last time i played with this precon (no upgrades) my opponents had oodles of cards to play that could destroy, exile, or stop my commaders abilities. Do you think these upgrades are going to help alleviate this problem?
Why does everyone talk about getting rid of the bobble heads and not the Talismans? Sure, you don’t get the full effect of a bobble head unless there are others in the deck, but tapping a bobble head for one mana of any color is already superior to paying one life to tap an artifact for one of two colors! As far as I’m concerned, you should remove Talisman of Dominance, Talisman of Curiosity, and Talisman of Resilience and replace them with the Bobble Heads of Perception, Intelligence, and Endurance. And let’s talk for a moment about Viridescent Bog, Darkwater Catacombs, and Overflowing Basin. Each of these lands makes you tap an additional mana plus this land to get two mana of two specific colors. So, you’re effectively tapping two lands to get two mana! SWAP THESE LANDS OUT! Not only can you do that with basic lands, but there are better dual lands out there already. Ones that enter the battlefield tapped and either tap for two mana of two different colors, or give you one health upon etb then tap for one mana of either of two colors. Either way you’re getting a better deal than “Pay 1, tap: get two mana”. I’d rather wait an extra turn or just get a basic land than do that.
I agree, that's why I recommended him in the additional upgrades (sadly he's a bit too pricey to add to the main deck if we want to stay under budget).
Fair enough - it is a fantastic way for us to make our entire board of pumped up creatures evasive, though one could also make the argument that the commander is already evasive and a decent number of creatures in the 99 either fly or have trample, making it a bit redundant. Personally, I would say its not 100% necessary, but you can certainly run it if you want a proper finisher.
Honestly I wouldn't think so. Hakbal really shines if we have a critical mass of merfolk and since this build would have him as the only one he becomes a lot less good than he could be.
Problem is the deck is not focusing on "activated" ability, so i think despite being very powerful, it's not the best synergetic card , i was considering to use my own but i cut it cause it's not as good as other synergetic options
@@atrmial400 I was mostly thinking about stealing other players abilities like mana dorks and such that you made them mill, I think it can be good but not as good as a combo or a self mill deck
@@lulup2 of course it can be really fun to play with other player's creatures! The card is good, just i think not optimal, but edh is fun so who cares about optimisation ^^
I initially wanted to play proliferate but I don't have experience with this strategy (and I'm not good at building decks actually). I tried your decklist, it's so fun to play. i've enjoyed many of your videos, thanks a lot !
Rad Counters feel like the only potentially (read as probably) broken bit from these decks. All you have to do is combo stack to body the table at anytime and anytime they stop killing you, you just blossom into an autokill again the next turn. Good luck to whomever is brave enough to run it, because I know who's getting the nuke first based on my experience.
I would add infect. But the cards would be tainted strike and the black sorcery that says “every players gets a poison counter”. I wouldn’t use to many slots for infect. Just 2
Sadly it looks like he was beaten out in the polls by Mr. House, but since a lot of folks are asking for him, I think I'll be giving him a second chance soon.
Here’s what I’ve found is the biggest drawback of this deck: YOU’RE PUNCHING YOURSELF IN THE FACE WITH RAD COUNTERS! Sure there are cards that give you buffs for milling yourself, BUT A) You can easily mill those cards before you have a chance to draw them. B) It’s a Commander game. Everyone sees that you have cards on the table that you gain benefits from milling yourself with, and DO remove those cards on their turn such that by the time it’s your turn again you’re just milling your own deck with none of the benefits and all of the drawbacks. C) There aren’t enough cards in the deck that let you get stuff out of your graveyard and back into your library, hand, or battlefield. The cards that do let me do that in this deck are not only few and far between, but I have accidentally milled all of them out of my deck by my own rad counters, which leads me back to the fact that this deck is good at making you punch yourself in the face while tricking you into thinking that it’s a good idea.
Hey folks! Please see below for the full list of upgrade suggestion made in the video, check out the link in the description for the full decklist, and let me know in the comments if you agree with my changes, disagree, and/or what changes you think I missed!
----------------------------
Proliferate
----------------------------
Cathedral Acolyte >>> Thrummingbird
Tireless Tracker >>> Evolution Sage
Lily Bowen, Raging Grandma >>> Cankerbloom
----------------------------
+1/+1 Counters
----------------------------
Harold and Bob, First Numens >>> Kami of Whispered Hopes
Strength Bobblehead >>> Incubation Druid
Piper Wright, Publick Reporter >>> Gyre Sage
Harmonize >>> Danny Pink
Vault 87: Forced Evolution >>> Fathom Mage
----------------------------
Mill
----------------------------
Fraying Sanity >>> Mindcrank
Watchful Radstag >>> Mesmeric Orb
Lumbering Megasloth >>> Ruin Crab
----------------------------
Mill Matters
----------------------------
Temple of the False God >>> Zellix, Sanity Flayer
Ash Barrens >>> Bloodchief Ascension
Mortuary Mire >>> Syr Konrad, the Grim
----------------------------
Recursion
----------------------------
Find//Finality >>> Timeless Witness
Hancock, Ghoulish Mayor >>> Dryad's Revival
Jason Bright, Glowing Prophet >>> Creeping Renaissance
Biomass Mutation >>> Eternal Witness
Young Deathclaws >>> Muldrotha, the Gravetide
----------------------------
Removal
----------------------------
Casualties of War >>> Beast Within
----------------------------
Additional Upgrades
----------------------------
Nightkin Ambusher >>> Bruvac the Grandiloquent
Strong, the Brutish Thespian >>> Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider
Contaminated Drink >>> The Great Henge
Big fan of the upgrades! Very similar to what I was thinking of, Danny Pink especially is just an insanely good card in the deck.
One key interaction to note is that Mesmeric Orb makes players do 1 instance of milling 1 card every time they untap a card, so the Mothman sees them all separately. Say your opponent mills 6 creatures off the Orb, Mothman can actually put all 6 counters on himself rather than put 1 counter on 6 creatures. Similarly, Zellix will create 6 tokens instead of just 1.
My only potential adds that I really liked in testing are:
- Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter & Rishkar, Peema Renegade, to turn all your modified creatures into mana dorks - I've struggled playing the cards I draw, and they have helped me do it
- Kodama of the West Tree, to let you ramp a lot and it gives your board Trample.
- Cauldron of Souls is a very nice protection piece, as you can use the Mothman's ability to rid yourself of the -1 counters and make the Cauldron able to protect your board again.
And for one cheeky add - Willbreaker. Mothman doesn't specify the counters have to go onto your own creatures, so by having a Willbreaker in the list you get to steal from your opponents board pretty consistently. The funniest interaction by far is that Cauldron of Souls can also target your opponents creatures; Willbreaker + Cauldron suddenly turns into an instant speed Insurrection without your opponents realizing it
Holy crap, Willbreaker goes crazy with this deck, I will have to pick one of these up for my own build 😁
I don't get the point with soul cauldron . If you put a +1/+1 counter on your creatures, they keep the -1/-1 so you cannot protect them again i think ??
@@atrmial400 They have a weird ruling for this, now if you have both a +1 and -1 counter on the same creature they will cancel out.
Many people seem to miss Everflowing Chalice. With proliferate this thing gets huge. It's also on theme because you can get it from the Science Deck
That's fair and I can see it slotting in as another source of ramp, but personally I liked bodies that I can grow with counters and that ramp us so that we can get the mana we need early and then use beefed up bodies to crack into our opponents later. Still, adding in Everflowing Chalice would still make a fine addition if you feel like the build needs a bit more ramp.
One word: Fertilid such an amazing card
The Great Hinge rants are never getting old xD
Ah yes, the great hinge, key card to opening the amazing door strategy.
The great henge is such an awesome powerful card
The Great Hinge rants, the Great Hinge rants are never changing.
Was waiting for this one!
Hope it was worth the wait!
I feel like we need a bit more commander protection like heroic intervention, mithril coat (if the budget allows for either), or swiftfoot boots. We're also in blue, why no counterspell? Also, if you wanna splurge, grab the ozolith so you don't lose all those +1 counters in the event of Mothmam being taken out.
How many protection spells do you run in your decks? For me, since it’s Sultai and I have to rely on Mothman, I’m going with 7.
Just found your channel and instantly left a Sub, your Cut-Rate decks are awesome! ❤ There often hidden gems i didn't even know existed. Mothmann and rad counters are super fun and finally something "new". Lets say i would raise my budget to 200$ to upgrade the land base and maybe even more other than your optional upgrades, what cards would you add/cut? 😊
Nice! We cut almost the same cards but have different upgrades. Man, I love mtg. Always so many ways to improve decks. I went with Consuming Aberration, Plaxcaster Frogling, Simic Manipulator and Simic Ascendancy for example (and some others). btw keep the great henge hate, its too lovely. :D
was waiting for this one, nice build. i would have gone with a more Mutant build, everyone and their mother is going to go hard on the mill for this one and naturally no one likes playing against mill and that will just bring too much aggro.
Side note, more then half the cards you picked has doubled in price.
I just wanna say that I made this build (missing Bruvac, dryad card, and bloodchief ascension) and just want to say this deck JUST puts in work! So many big fat creatures everywhere.
If you had to update the lands though, what would you take out and what would you replace?
i love this, i have all the cards imma play this during my next commander night
I brought my upgraded mutant deck to game night last Friday and won with mesmeric orb and bloodchief Ascension. Crazy combo. Add mindcrank and I mean you probably can one turn kill people on their turn when they untap
Bloodchief is the bomb here in this Milltastic build
Muldrotha in a Mothman deck sounds poetic
Rad Counters are a fantastic mechanic on that I’m disappointed they didn’t do a full set for to expand on it. Unlike Poison, players mill cards and lose life for each card then lose a rad counter.
My only disappointment is that we didn’t get a Deathclaw Legend, and I’m saying that as a Scalie.
If you’re running mind crank try Dreadhound with it. Even without mind crank on board it has relevance too so it’s never a dead card
Tekuthal, Inquiry Dominus seems like a good include, and is relatively cheap atm.
I think it can replace frank hoorigan because it does the same thing with cheaper cmc
Do you play fallout? Or did you spend a lot of time researching fallout lore?
Did you use the wikis or any of oxhorns lore content?
I have not played Fallout myself - so I has to rely a lot on the wiki's to get the lore portion on this one done.
Great guide , as always.
Glad you enjoyed it!
What's your opinion on cards like Ripples of Potential and Contagion Engine? If they're worth adding, what would you recommend cutting?
Ripples of Potential would make a fantastic addition as another cheap way to protect our entire creature base from wipes, though at 6 mana Contagion Engine may be a bit too expensive for what it does since we already have a lot of "free" proliferate sources - but can still be good since its technically also a wipe and proliferates twice with each use.
If you want to add in either or both, I would recommend the following changes:
Power Fist >>> Ripples of Potential
Recon Craft Theta >>> Contagion Engine
@@GrazzetMTG Most appreciated, thank you!
I'm missing Vraska, Betrayal's Sting, she gives card draw has proliferate and an alternate win condition
Treasure cruise is a good draw spell with a self mill deck
Mah boy always supplying the heat
Glad you think so!
Ah... right on time. As expected from such a cryptid of a deck! Bad jokes aside, amazing vid as always!
Next up... Oh, so THAT'S what's up, doc! As for my vote, well, same one as last time! (I may or may not have forgotten, TBH, I need sleep.)
Day 316 of waiting for the face reveal. So, the live-action Fallout's trailer just came out - thoughts?
Glad you enjoyed it and your comments (and bad puns) are always appreciated!
Regarding the Fallout live action trailer - it looks pretty good all things considered. CG looks fine, characters look fun, and it appears to have a nice blend of action and comedy. I may just have to check it out if I have the time.
You should do most of the Fallout commanders!
That's a tough ask - there's like 20+ new commander here (I think) and I am just one man!
The last time i played with this precon (no upgrades) my opponents had oodles of cards to play that could destroy, exile, or stop my commaders abilities. Do you think these upgrades are going to help alleviate this problem?
Why does everyone talk about getting rid of the bobble heads and not the Talismans? Sure, you don’t get the full effect of a bobble head unless there are others in the deck, but tapping a bobble head for one mana of any color is already superior to paying one life to tap an artifact for one of two colors!
As far as I’m concerned, you should remove Talisman of Dominance, Talisman of Curiosity, and Talisman of Resilience and replace them with the Bobble Heads of Perception, Intelligence, and Endurance.
And let’s talk for a moment about Viridescent Bog, Darkwater Catacombs, and Overflowing Basin. Each of these lands makes you tap an additional mana plus this land to get two mana of two specific colors. So, you’re effectively tapping two lands to get two mana! SWAP THESE LANDS OUT! Not only can you do that with basic lands, but there are better dual lands out there already. Ones that enter the battlefield tapped and either tap for two mana of two different colors, or give you one health upon etb then tap for one mana of either of two colors. Either way you’re getting a better deal than “Pay 1, tap: get two mana”. I’d rather wait an extra turn or just get a basic land than do that.
I might be miscounting, but where did you get ten card draw sources? I only see seven.
the great hinge is making grazzet un-hinge :D................ i mill myself now lolz
Kinda miss the "keepers" music it was so epic.
I’d add bruvac as well
I agree, that's why I recommended him in the additional upgrades (sadly he's a bit too pricey to add to the main deck if we want to stay under budget).
I love how everyone keep forgotting herald of secret streams
Fair enough - it is a fantastic way for us to make our entire board of pumped up creatures evasive, though one could also make the argument that the commander is already evasive and a decent number of creatures in the 99 either fly or have trample, making it a bit redundant.
Personally, I would say its not 100% necessary, but you can certainly run it if you want a proper finisher.
@@GrazzetMTG I see
Would the Merfolk precon commander Hakbal, be a good fit?
Honestly I wouldn't think so. Hakbal really shines if we have a critical mass of merfolk and since this build would have him as the only one he becomes a lot less good than he could be.
All the Complaining Grazzet does about The Great Henge makes me wonder if he has a few copies 🤔🤔🤔
Do other mill cards translate to the mothman’s ability?
Yes
Nice upgrades though there's no way I'm cutting that amazing Casualties of War.
Understandable - that art is fantastic.
I own a copy of Agatha's Soul Cauldron, do you think it's worth the inclusion without a dedicated combo in the deck?
Problem is the deck is not focusing on "activated" ability, so i think despite being very powerful, it's not the best synergetic card , i was considering to use my own but i cut it cause it's not as good as other synergetic options
@@atrmial400 I was mostly thinking about stealing other players abilities like mana dorks and such that you made them mill, I think it can be good but not as good as a combo or a self mill deck
@@lulup2 of course it can be really fun to play with other player's creatures! The card is good, just i think not optimal, but edh is fun so who cares about optimisation ^^
I initially wanted to play proliferate but I don't have experience with this strategy (and I'm not good at building decks actually). I tried your decklist, it's so fun to play. i've enjoyed many of your videos, thanks a lot !
My pleasure and happy to hear that you enjoyed my build and that its been working well for you!
Your vocal infliction feels AI, haha,
What is everyone using for rad counters
I use the companion app!
Rad Counters feel like the only potentially (read as probably) broken bit from these decks. All you have to do is combo stack to body the table at anytime and anytime they stop killing you, you just blossom into an autokill again the next turn. Good luck to whomever is brave enough to run it, because I know who's getting the nuke first based on my experience.
Is it bad i want to add infect to this deck?
I would add infect. But the cards would be tainted strike and the black sorcery that says “every players gets a poison counter”. I wouldn’t use to many slots for infect. Just 2
@@Commander_Claw i would definitely add grafted exoskeleton along with what you mentioned. Phyresis outbreak
Liberty Prime, Recharged please!!!!
Sadly it looks like he was beaten out in the polls by Mr. House, but since a lot of folks are asking for him, I think I'll be giving him a second chance soon.
Voting for master
Here’s what I’ve found is the biggest drawback of this deck: YOU’RE PUNCHING YOURSELF IN THE FACE WITH RAD COUNTERS! Sure there are cards that give you buffs for milling yourself, BUT
A) You can easily mill those cards before you have a chance to draw them.
B) It’s a Commander game. Everyone sees that you have cards on the table that you gain benefits from milling yourself with, and DO remove those cards on their turn such that by the time it’s your turn again you’re just milling your own deck with none of the benefits and all of the drawbacks.
C) There aren’t enough cards in the deck that let you get stuff out of your graveyard and back into your library, hand, or battlefield. The cards that do let me do that in this deck are not only few and far between, but I have accidentally milled all of them out of my deck by my own rad counters, which leads me back to the fact that this deck is good at making you punch yourself in the face while tricking you into thinking that it’s a good idea.
what does cut-rate mean?
It means discount or 'good deal' on something.
@@richardschiller3495 gotcha, thanks!