Friedman and Sowell on Equality
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Milton Friedman gives his brilliant assessment of equality in the context of inherited wealth. Thomas Sowell heatedly debates Frances Fox Piven, of 'Cloward-Piven Strategy' fame, on equality of opportunity versus equality of results.
The 'Cloward-Piven Strategy':
"First proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse."
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"like most people, i have never seen a pollster" The guy's a genius :D
"How to make a socialist go mad" Sowell level.
As if a poll determines what policy prescriptions are most effective as a solution lol And then they butcher the actually results of the poll as it is. Omitting info, etc.
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand what he means by that. Could you please explain it to me? I've been trying to figure it out for a while now, but it just went over my head (along with many other things that originate from this brilliant man lol)
MIAcane23 it as it is said...he has never seen someone conducting a poll...only sees that it has been done lol like most of us
krys powerful. (As I take it) that he would need to evaluate the “pollster” to see what their biases are to determine if their poll is actually just)
It’s similar to the Fish tree climbing sentiment.
Thomas Sowell is simply brilliant. His book Basic Economics should be in every classroom.
just finished it tonight. easily in the top 5 most eye-opening, mind-changing books i've read.
I was considering purchasing it this post has sent me to do so
@@gurpchirp what are the remaining 4?
@@xackman2407
How the Mind Works -Steven Pinker
Scale- Geoffrey West
The Righteous Mind- Jonathan Haidt
Guns Germs and Steel- Jared Diamond
@@gurpchirp thanx for replying
I'm full-blooded Native American and it drives me nuts how people get so angry about the moniker for the Washington Redskins on our behalf. It's almost more racist to be upset FOR us. This is exactly the problem Dr. Sowell has illustrated. Sowell is an intellectual giant. I love how Friedman chuckles to the side. YES- Conservative Native Americans exist.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the local tribes that gave the blessing and endorsement for the team being called The Redskins?
You tell'em bro!
Thats ashame, they are now officially changing the name now in July 13, 2020! It was bound to happen I just wish it wasnt in my generation. I stand with u my Native American brother💯🙏🇺🇸
@smoosh smoosh brah SMH... Im Black with some Native Indian blood so what are talking about. And even if I were white, asian, or hispanic I would still call him my bother! We are ALL1 Race, 1 Nation, UNDER GOD!
@Bobby Brady Who the hec u calling an idiot! Call this number and say it to my face. .. 6108003507. Im waiting to hear u. How u gonna call me a racist cuz I said Im black mixed with Native American? Im aware of my ancestry and my nationally. Im a proud young Christian Conservative American so what are u talking bout... It people like u who mess it up for the rest of us true patriots. ...
P.s Im still waiting chump.
P.s.s Jesus Loves u and so does i. But im still wating...
thomas sowell kicking ass and taking names!
A young rambunctious Thomas Sowell. I love it.
(He's around 50years old here. I know, he aged better than most)
Savage. Sowell is a force to be reckoned with and we need him now more than ever.
“ …like most people, I have NEVER seen a pollster.” - Thomas Sowell Absolutely BRILLIANT 👏🏼
Thomas Sowell is a national treasure. It was sad to see how little attention the media gave to Friedman's passing.
I hope Sowell sticks around 'til he's 100!
Whoa I have never seen Thomas Sowell that worked up! And that's not even that worked up!
You done pissed off the most composed and ever keeled intellectual ever known. Concede the argument and apologize. Lol
"Nahhhh!" Lol never seen Thomas react before. Lol
"It was you who chose to express it, damn it" Awesome way to wordslap a leftist by Sowell!!!
Thomas Sowell, national treasure and wealth of common sense!
"It's not a question of what Black people chose to do, it's what you chose to put in the mouths of Black people, it's what you choose to project."
40 year later and we still have the same problem...
For instance, insisting that the 'b' in black needs to be capitalized, therefore homogenizing black people under one label
Yep.
Only it's worse because our society is so dumbed down and lied to more than it was 40 or 50 years ago
@No Name lol, didnt get the irony still liked it
Thomas Sowell.
Why is this man not known internationally? Genius!!
One of the greatest people to walk the face of the Earth.
"Like most people, I have never seen a pollster."
A+
Hey!
The tragedy is that Sowell is more of a hero amongst white conservatives than blacks. If only blacks held the same admiration for Thomas Sowell as they do for Al Sharpton, Malcolm X or even MLK, they would be much better off in America today.
Josh Schwartz facts!!
If blacks (generally speaking) held real admiration for Malcolm X then they wouldn't continuously vote Democrat or look to the government at all to solve their problems. That was contrary to everything he stood for.
Dennis Boyd Black folks vote 95% Democrat every year. They aren't thinking for themselves. The white liberal has seduced the black mind, as Malcolm X warned.
Silus That doesn't prove anything but your own biases.
Dennis Boyd It also proves that black folks will vote for Democrats regardless of what they do for them. That's basically being a slave and not thinking for yourself.
"Intellectuals were not in that protest movement, black people were in that protest movement" Ummm excuse me Miss????
Didn’t even notice that line. Cringe!
Don't think she meant it like that.
I wonder if it's the same brand shoe purchased at K-Mart that her, Biden et al out in their own mouths.
Not surprising. She founded a plan with her husband to overwhelm the welfare state. The plan was to impoverish more minorities and have them seek assistance and force a prototype of universal income. Like many of her ilk she just views blacks and others as ends to a mean.
At :27 when Friedman showed up in the window I cracked up.
"Like most people I have never seen a pollster". You tell her Mr. Sowell.
Milton Friedman's _Free to Choose_ series, along with James Burke's _Connections_ should be required viewing and understanding for every sophomore in high school.
I find both of these MEN to be AMAZING.
I could listen to both of them ALL DAY.
I also love this man. I'm a WASP and to hear a black man speak who has risen above racist and economic scapegoats of victimization is truly inspiring. He needs no one's help - least of all the government's... and because of that, I cannot help but love him. Even more remarkable is that he was speaking this truth 30 years ago in times when racism and discrimination were far more rampant than they are today. Sadly, we now go backwards as a society as political correctness to the nth degree
that's my boy
This guys a legend. Untouchable in debates and comes back with the best retorts. I wish he'd live forever.
Amazing how far ahead he was at this point in time. If only his pov was taught widespread decades ago.
Equality of Outcome as a result of equality of opportunity has already been proven wrong. If any of you have listened to Dr. Peterson, he makes clear of the point that experiments with egalitarian industrial societies have shown that equal opportunities for both males and females do not lead to equal results but rather a much greater reality of differences in terms of occupations.
I don't think she's necessarily espousing equality of outcome- just conditions that can lead to equality of opportunity (access to education,etc) - I think those conditions are now in place, but they certainly weren't in the 50's- thus the need to protest at that time.
@@stewhooey1294 She was trying to draw a false correlation between the two. And failed, like they always do when talking to a person of intelligence and not ideology. Mr. Sowell said it as well as anyone can, human nature is too diverse and varied to achieve equal outcomes without first stripping away most if not all personal liberties. And reality repeatedly bears him out on this point, and will continue to do so.
Stew Hooey the left does though - they don’t see the difference because they assume outcomes will be equal when opportunity is. This is the common message of “egalitarianism” in the left. Peterson’s interview with Cathy Newman exposed this.
Continuing multigenerational race discrimination against Black Americans is one of the core features of the white American system! Vast, massive damage from white racism is the central cause of nearly all nearly ALL BLACK FAILURES!
it is such a pleasure to watch these two men, intelligent and rational men. more people should listen to them. i think they make a kick-ass duo.
I am reminded of the short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut, in which equality is achieved through the deliberate handicapping of the more talented members of society. Thinkers have ringers in their ears which break their concentration, the handsome are disfigured, the graceful forced to wear weights and bonds. All in the name of fairness. Its quite a good, if depressing, story.
Sounds like what is happening today.
Ringers- unlimited digital wifi & social media distractions causing brain fog, addiction, & mental/emotional impairment.
Disfigurement - fillers, implants, surgeries, & butchering of the young.
Weights & bonds- obesity & society inflicted illnesses that disable.
Thomas Sowell is such a great man
Forget the debate. Look how respectful everyone is, how great everyone is dressed and their posture. I wish I was born in this era.
“If you look at the leadership in the black...” yeah, I definitely felt she forgot that she was talking to a black man. And that black man was, Thomas Sowell.
How can Sowell be black? Hes not Leftist!
@@TeaParty1776 are you basing someone’s skin color and culture off a ideology?
@@dericksuapaia SARCASM!!!!!
Love me some swaggy Thomas Sowell. That body reposition after the pollster quip was pure bliss. 👑
Something hilarious to me in the image of Milton peering in through the window.
I just made a similar comment. I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that
Oh noooo woman!!! you choose the wrong person to argue with !!! not Thomas Sowell, you will be ruined !!!!
She’s Jewish
@@5277088 Why does religious beliefs matter in this instance?
I wish I was a student this great intellectual
I wish that I were as smart as Thomas Sowell. Nothing but wisdom ever flows from his lips and his pen. I loved that he was so passionate about this.
Where are these debaters today?
Jerry Springer
Seems like the age of this level of intellectual discourse is over without intellectual heavyweights like Sowell and Friedman debating anymore.
Listen to intellectuals from the Ayn Rand Institute, eg, Yaron Brook, Alex Epstein.
Good parenting is probably the most important part of the equation in respect to success. Why do the left try to bring everybody down to the level of the worst parenting. We need to help people born at the bottom to reach the same level as those at the top, not the reverse.
I think you have a misinterpretation of equal opportunity vs equal outcome
It's easier to villify the top because there are so few. Claiming to benefit the poor brings in votes and bleeding hearts across the country
Mr. Sowell is WONDERFUL!!! I LOVE IT when he tears down the idiocies of know nothings.
“Most people resent one, but not the other”; smash cut to 2020 and we have full spectrum resentment. Smh
Friedman completely overlooks the possibility and even likelihood that many children have great talent that goes undiscovered for lack of opportunity, awareness, and encouragement.
That is a function of the family. Why families are necessary.
"You expressed it, damn it~!"
XD
IT'S NEVER ABOUT RACE IT'S ABOUT HOW YOUR RAISED
Remember what Malcolm X said about white liberals and if you don't remember you need to go find out or refresh.
I remember.........
Paraphrased: The white conservative is a growling wolf, the white liberal a smiling fox. And they'll both eat you. Malcolm X was a bigoted fear monger and pseudo-intellectual, not worth quoting or remembering.
Oh that’s awesome I’ve never seen him fired up like that. Excellent closing comment by the way.
4:40 You see Sowell swing his arm at the lady.
That's an old school New Yorker hand gesture for "Da fuck outta here..."
Thats no lady... thats a leftist feminazi.. 🙄😂
Thats no lady... thats a leftist feminazi.. 🙄😂
Be nice if there were debates like this today.
*SOWELL INTENSIFIES*
Two great men! Sowell and Friedman.
yeah go play that viola on the subway see how far that talent takes ya....maybe to the next happy meal.
Man I just came across Thomas Sowell and man is he a great. More people should study and watch content from him. He doesn’t pull any punches.
I love the plethora of mike drop moments from both Friedman and Sowell. The rationale expounded by most elitist psuedo-intellectuals is nothing but a contrived, self-percieved intellectual superiority, and when true reason that conforms to reality is presented to them, it goes right over their heads. Their arguments become pure rhetoric with no substantive answers to the issues they wrongly perceive.
It's a shame the conversation got derailed on something of a technicality at the end - she raised a fair point about the viability of equal opportunity being dependent on people starting from a somewhat comparable place. When some kids go to school without lunch, and others have all kinds of access to expensive extra-curricular activities, this can hardly be said to be a society of equal opportunity. It would have been interesting to hear Sowell's response to this.
you can not inhereted talent you have to work at it all you need is : lessons.supporting parents,money,a room to practice,lessons,the right inveroment,time to practice,.ect ect-outliers
Mozart was literally one guy. A timeless genius. Was his mother or father also timeless geniuses? Did all whom were related to him (and thus shared an element of his DNA) rise to Mozart's level of musical genius? Genius is, by definition, exceptional.
"You can not inherit talent," Clearly some are developed. You inherited a talent in being a dumbass on the internet, when it was not present during the time of your parents.
There are alot of lazy talented people
Wow, Thomas was really at it :) Good man.
@Mike10four I don't think that Jefferson was talking about all life when he mentioned those rights (after all, he used the word "Men" meaning mankind). How do you define "happiness"? Depression- as I understand it, and please correct me if I am wrong, you've linked happiness with survival. If the depressed one survives, then he is happy. Of course the converse would be: if one is happy, then they survive; but the same can be said for those who are sad and angry- they survive as well.
@jimberkt thats true when you differenciate the two but what Dr. Freidman was pointing out is from an ethical point of view, why is it seen as acceptable for people to exploit talent, but frowned upon for people to exploit the fact that they are born into a family business or the opportunity for a good education? the students were able to hone their musical talent (from family and genetics) which is more virtuous then other people who learn skills to make money from their family and wealth.
@5:26 “like most people I have never seen a pollster” 2022… still true
@13otany13ay Perhaps a better way to phrase the question would be how do you extract the preferences of society. How do you determine what the society desires?
@seiferganon Agreed. I find that Milton's original argument of talent and wealth at first seemed to make sense. However, I think one has to listen more than once in order to understand the flaw in his statement. It all goes to show that one must think for themselves and not absorb every bit of information from even the most influential speakers.
At first, I thought Sowell was holding a smart phone at 4:42 👀 lol.
Two of the best Minds ever
Now that Mr. Sowell has mentioned it, I too have never seen or talk to a pollster but sure have heard and seen many polls.
Where can I find , the full length video ? The link at the end of the video , doesn't work .
@royharmon4 he says "there is no difference between musical talent and other forms of property" if you make the assumption that musical talent is somehow a form of property it is an unlimited intangible property. So there is a difference in the sense that you could easily share out that "property" many people eg teaching a class of 10 doesnt require more or less musical talent than a class of 20, but you cant share out wealth in the same way.
@Mike10four That makes sense. Prepare yourself: Unlimited characters means not only unlimited response, but unlimited questioning! One philosophy, of the Founder's philosophy, will have to have sway: yours, mine, or even a new one which we establish through our impending discussion! Just as you expect nothing short of my questioning your philosophy, I expect nothing short of the same with respect to mine. :D
@jasontkennedy
I agree that society improves as poverty is reduced. The question always was what was the best way to reduce it. Putting the gov't in charge of comprehending the price system is the worst possible solution at increasing output.
If you spent more time reading the works of Austrian economists like Henry Hazlitt or Milton Friedman, you'd see the infinite wisdom in the free market's spontaneous arrangement of costs of production, prices, and profits to allocate scarce
There is one crucial ethical difference between the inheritance of talent and the inheritance of wealth. Inheritance of talent is a fact of life, inheritance of wealth is something society chooses to perform.
@wowsa0
Being able to handle having lots of money is a skill that rich parents can teach their children.
@Mbsmoothie well there are some fundamental issues with the concept of ownership of property such as land, but apart from that my point was that the musician can effectively pass his skill on to as many people as he wants without diminishing the resource whereas the rich man can only divide up his resource in a limited way eg if he only has $1000 he cant give each of his five sons $1000. Wasnt really talking about the ethics of being born into wealth.
Thomas Picketty is so well yeah !
Never thought I would see Thomas Soul curse and anger, that was cool to see
@13otany13ay But what sort of form does this social activity take ? Is this discourse just voice or is it actually action? What provides greater signal fidelity in regards to what individuals in a society want when everything is aggregated democracy or market exchange?
Talent, like inherited monetary wealth, are great if you have them. But it's a far greater gift to teach your kids the value of learning skills needed to survive/succeed and cultivate the drive necessary to not only go get those skills, but to apply them in practice.
Doesn't matter if they want to have a blue-collar job or be a concert musician, the process is still the same; need to learn the skills to do the job and the drive to hone those to mastery, (not to mention the fact they need to continually practice and learn).
Sowell and Friedman are both brilliant men.
I love Thomas passion and reasoned arguments he is so right as a middle aged white man from Australia I've watched him from afar with admiration He is truly one of the great intellects of the 21st century. By the way that women had the hots for Tom. He was a fine rooster back in the day
@Dabba23 I'm inclined to agree with dabba here, especially in regards to Trivers (71) on the evolution of reciprocal altruism. If we read this we realize that individuals seem to be engaging in transfers or social currency or evaluations of others. High population viscosity and low exit reinforce the altruistic order and good memory and long life spans ensure the stability of future cooperation and reciprocation. This dynamic seems like a proto-market to me, ignoring kin selection dynamics.
Well said, Dr. Sowell. Well said, indeed, sir.
As Friedman said, a society that puts more importance on equal outcomes than individual freedom; will end up with neither. And as Sowell said, individuals are not even equal to themselves throughout their lifetime; let alone others.
A profitable degree, in terms of pure income, does point toward the sciences (although less and less). But as a teacher of economics, and as someone with a higher income, I am continually reminded that utility and satisfaction are not rising with income. This is also a fact that can be looked up.
@chapaev36
Yes you are right about skills...but my point was that talent is always a fair "gift" and skills are always fairly developed. On the contrary money or stocks not always are so fair "gift", if they are the result of criminal or corrupted activities. So the Friedman statement is not exhaustive: there is a "little" difference between talent and wealth and this is exactly ethical. Talent and skills are always fair, wealth not so always.
@gregvs3
Not only, but regarding INHERITANCE of money, if someone is not responsible of his/her own wealth like a child, I agree that is practically not different than talent, but only for the child. The parents has total ethical responsibility regarding the money they gave to their children.
Sowell and Friedman.. what an intellectual feast. Wish Buckley were in it too.
@chapaev36
Yes you say "fairly" because you mean that someone "unfairly" can't develop his skills (because it's not enough wealthy), and that's true. I was talking only about the ethical difference between talent, money, and skills as "inheritance". Talent and skills are always "pure", even if they can be USED in a bad way. Money is not always so pure and purely "inherited"...putting talent and money on the same level like Friedman here risks to undervalue this difference.
Tommy-BRINGIN HEAT!
what video is the thomas sowell part from?
@jasontkennedy
So are you saying the free market hasn't drastically eliminated poverty?
If you liked this you have to watch the whole debate. the link is in the description . Milton Friedman asks Fox pivan atleast 9 times what system of government/market is better than the free market.. she equivocates she NEVER answers.. I think it's worth watching the whole thing less than a hour...
The difference between someone who is just given money, vs. being bought a business, vs. being bought an education is that the later two add value to society, while the first one doesn't...
@jasontkennedy
The market ofc has the initiative (and always does) to beat the state to something. It's that there's no profit in charity. There could be profit in loans. But, certainly not simple charity.
it would be great if milton friedman was still around!
And here I was thinking I was smart for figuring out the flipped point of view of whether parents should be prevented from spending money on their children's future, instead of spending it on shallower things. I was just about 40 years late. -_-
@13otany13ay You're right. You are going in circles.
I don't know of any study that breaks it down like that over someones life time. Normal for the ultra rich the assume the control of foundations (Margaret Carnegie for example.
I do know of a study that shows that the heirs who parents were philanthropist are very likely to continue that trait.
What number do you have?
@gregvs3
This is due to the spiritual nature of skills and to the material nature of wealth. Skills are part of human essence, money is only an object like gold, precious stones: something you can sell, buy and of course stole. I was only arguing about this Friedman enthusiasm that risks to become too simplistic.
yeah, I hear you,but I think you are missing the point. Friedman is attempting to equate the inheriting of material wealth (class)w/ the 'inheriting' of talent. Both types of talents require care & nurturing, but those who are impoverished (for various reasons) clearly face higher obstacles and odds to the socially productive cultivation of talents. This is more of a sociological issue then an economic one Economically, there are many "mixed" western economies which more equal & very successful
@jimberkt well thats point of the video lol. Also inherited wealth, such as a factory can be used by me just as much as my brother, but the video isnt comparing the nature of the two (talent and wealth), the main point of freidmans argument was the principle and how the two are perceived by people.
@quinnrasta I'm glad you made that point. While I think there can, at times, arguments made for government intervention, and the capitalist system can afford some criticism, there has yet to be an economic system to allow more freedom and ingenuity than capitalism. Every argument about inequality should begin with that caveat.
@Mike10four I always thought that happiness was a metaphor for property, as advocated by John Locke. In those days obtaining property was seen as pursuing happiness, "enjoying the fruits of one's labor." I'm afraid I don't fully understand the difference between Natural Law and Laws of Nature...
@chapaev36 how do you 'inherit talent' (?) talent is developed through practice. you can inherit money and good looks, but talent? one actually has to work/practice/develop talent.