When the sport changes to a manufacturer series it takes all interest out of the sport . Flat track in it's hay day had many Privateers riding all kinds of bikes and it was a hell of a lot more interesting to watch .
Same story about stock car racing. The local tracks had many different cars with many different size engines. And USAC Championship cars were of many chasi and engines.
Why is it less interesting to watch now? The bikes are just as fast and the racing is just as competitive. Apparently the creator of this video and most everyone who is commenting doesn't know the history of flat track racing and audience attendance. From it's creation and all the way throughout most of the 70's AMA Grand National flat track was THE form of motorcycle racing in America, just watch the 1976 movie The Bad News Bears, Jackie Earl Haley's character Kelly Leek at one point has a T-shirt on that says "Flat Tracker" on it, all that started to change in the late 70's and especially in 1980 when Marty Moates won the USGP motorcross race at Carlsbad California, he beat the best European motorcross racers who'd always dominated the sport even when they'd come over here to America, but when Moates beat them he became the hero of every teenage boy in America who dreamed about motorcycle's and racing them, then just a few years later supercross became popular and the flat track stands drained with everyone going to watch motorcross and supercross, suddenly the idols of teenage boys went from Mert Lawill and Jay Springsteen to Bob "The Hurricane" Hannah and Marty Moates, and that's because young boys too young to ride a street bike could goad their parents into buying them a dirt bike with hopes that they could get on a track and go somewhere, compared to motorcycle flat track and road racing which took more money than any kid could get out of his parents to get into, overnight motorcross racers were the new heroes and the flat track stands emptied. Scotty Parker won his 9 Grand National championships in the 80's and early 90's at a time when Harley pretty much dominated the sport and the stands were empty, the creator of this video makes it sound like they're empty nowadays because of Harley but the fact is they've been empty for 40 years now even when Harley was dominating the sport, it's not their fault it's just that motorcross and supercross took over as the big spectator sport for motorcycle racing in America 40 years ago.
They banned it because it was a 2 stroke engine, the rules for Superbike don't allow for 2 stroke engine's do they? Or are you going to try blaming that on Harley to? The truth is they shouldn't even have allowed that bike to race that day, the only reason they did was because the AMA didn't have a rule specifically denying 2 stroke engine's in Grand National racing simply because no one had ever done it. Yamaha developed that bike in Japan in complete secret because they knew if the AMA even caught wind of it they'd have immediately made a rule banning 2 stroke engine's, then after developing it in total secret they shipped it to Springfield and uncrated it the day of the race, the fact is the AMA should have banned it from even going on the track that day. When 4 stroke dirt bikes started racing in motorcross they were allowed somewhere around twice the displacement of 2 strokes in the same class weren't they? And that's for the same reason that Yamaha should only have been allowed to run a 2 stroke bike on a Grand National track with half the displacement of the other bikes, the only reason that thing even got on the track was Yamaha pulling a sneaky trick getting around a rule that hadn't been written simply because it was a given with everyone that Grand National bikes are 4 stroke. So they pulled their dirty trick and snuck up on everyone and got their win that day then that night the AMA passed a rule that only 4 strokes can compete in flat track, something that was already a given with any bike that'd been on a flat track including Triumph, BSA, Honda and just about any other manufacturer you can think of and they were all behind the ban.
AMA has a long history of favoring Harley. They are doing it again; each time there's a better product and another brand starts winning races, new rules are right around the corner.
The Indian has been so Dominate that they have now restricted the intake size on the Indian .. and don't allow as much wheel weights on the Indain .. The Indians are so throttled back now that Yamaha has won a couple of races... The idea was to keep costs down requiring Production based bikes... The Problem is that it can cost more to build a Yamaha FZ-07 Framer than to buy a Brand New Indian for $42,000.00 In the Production engine class the FG-750 has won a few races beating the Yamaha's and Kawasakis..
First off no they haven't, people from Europe, England in particular are always crying and saying that in the 60's for Harley's sake the AMA limited OHV engine's to 500cc, that's a bunch of malarkey, that rule was enacted in 1932 when no European bikes raced flat track and there was over 150 motorcycle manufacturers in America. The AMA has NEVER done anything to "favor Harley", the AMA has always set rules like limiting displacement on OHV engines back in 1932 and later limiting displacement on 4V engines because their policy has always been that one manufacturer shouldn't have a huge advantage over others because they wanted it to be about the most talented rider's and not the richest company, the idea was to keep one company from being able to price out your average racer by charging so much for one of their bikes, after the Great Depression and WW2 and Indian went out of business in the early 50's Harley was the only manufacturer making a bottom end that favored flat track racing, the knife in fork flywheel type bottom end that everyone rags on just so happens to be what works so well on a flat track, if it was a matter of just making a more powerful engine of the same displacement and type Harley would have been dethroned a long time ago, but since no one else built a bottom end the way American motorcycle's were made back in the day, which is what flat track racing evolved around they lost, all through the 70's after the AMA lifted the displacement limiting for OHV engines every other bike could and did run 750cc OHV engines, but Harley dominated the sport then because no one else built a heavy flywheel type bottom end, that's what keeps the rear wheel from breaking traction so badly when it's skipping along going around the corner on an uneven dirt track. Harley won so much throughout those years simply because they had years more experience at what they were doing and because of their "outdated" bottom end that just so happens to work well in that type of racing, now that other manufacturers have gotten years of experience at it and realized why Harley's worked so well they started making flat track racing engines with external changeable different weight flywheels, now they're winning, it's simply a matter of their experience caught up when back in the 70's Harley had 50 years experience and everyone else was trying to figure out what they knew. The AMA has never favored Harley despite everyone that's always crying that, they've NEVER wanted a manufacturer to make the difference, that's the way their rules have ALWAYS been set up long before European and Japanese motorcycle's started competing in American flat track racing.
The government has done the same. Tbh the only reason their primitive bikes are still around is all the rules and regulations and laws that have saved the company time and time again. Whether it was saving it from losing races or saving it from going bankrupt. It’s sad that they can’t just keep up with everyone else so they cry for help and they always get it so here we are where they’re so technologically behind everyone else. Although they are finally trying to catch up at least some
@@leviminton3320 Nonsense, first off read my comment above your's to learn the truth behind the displacement ruling about OHV engine's being limited to 500cc's until the 70's, that rule WAS NOT enacted in the 60's to cripple European bikes as everyone claims, it was enacted in 1932 when no foreign bikes raced American flat track and there was over 150 motorcycle manufacturers in America with some making OHV engine's. And as far as the ONE TIME for just A FEW YEARS that a tax was put on large displacement import bikes to help level the financial playing field to keep Harley from going out of business SO WHAT? Are you really that toxic of a person that you'd like to have seen the last American motorcycle manufacturer who makes the kind of bikes you obviously have no interest in anyways go out of business? Wow, nice guy, the fact is Harley was the only motorcycle manufacturer that wasn't backed by a multi billion dollar corporation, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki are all divisions of that are a fraction of their parent corporations, not only does someone like Honda have engineering and engineers from their much more profitable automotive division that their motorcycle division can benefit from but more importantly all those companies could afford to flood the American market with bikes they were actually losing money on in order to drive Harley out of business, Harley doesn't have a multi billion dollar corporation backing it that can throw all kinds of money into them, so what if they make motorcycle's you have no interest in anyway, you'd rather see them go bankrupt and the people who like them have lost the one source that makes what they like? No, you're not a spiteful person, what happened did a Harley rider run over your puppy when you were a little kid that you feel it so necessary to spit venom at their motorcycle's and the people who ride them? I've owned motorcycle's from just about every motorcycle manufacturer at one point or the other and I've loved every one of them, that's because I'm a motorcyclist, and I wouldn't want to see any of the motorcycle manufacturer's go out of business, I really don't care what someone else rides, it's their money they're spending so it's none of my business what they buy and ride around on, whatever it is I hope it makes them happy because that's what motorcycling is supposed to be about.
Sorry my friend but I have to disagree Indian motorcycles, dominated flat track history and races during the 1930s into the 40s with riders like Ted Evans and Ed (Iron Man) Kretz and of course Jimmy Kelly!!! If you would like to know more contact me because my father is Ted Evans being a factory Indian Rider
Harley got the AMA to restrict British bikes to 500 cc's while Harleys were 750'cc's .. and the British bikes still won so they restricted compression ratios and Carburetor sizes too.
500cc overhead valves vs 750 side valves,I believe in 69 they updated the rules to allow 750 ohv engines race.routt made the big bore kits for Triumph while BSA stroked theirs- the A70 model,many of the brit bikes you see racing in the old vids are on factory frames and 650 cc,Triumph gamed the rules too as they had to have a factory stamp,they went to a fabricator and asked them to build a frame and Triumph would stamp a Part number,the company became Trackmaster, probably the most famous of the old dirt track race frames
I didn't even know about flat track when I started shopping for my first bike and the FTR was the one bike that caught my eye at the Indian dealership. It was out of my budget but my god was it beautiful.
Thr FTR is a God Tier naked ripper. Only bikes like them are Italian machines costing double. Even then, the FTR1200 typically wipes the podium with 1st, 2nd AND 3rd.
Saw my first FTR Carbon at the dealership in Bridgend in Wales at the end of August 2020 and was immediately impressed. It’s too heavy and silly money, but impossible to ignore, unlike virtually every Harley since 1976. Peace
The price of parts for Harley is out of this world. I have had more fun on my SR 500 Yamaha than I will ever have on my 200 sportster or my SS350 Aermacchi Harley.
@@gregorsamsa1364 dude you beat me to it! I read that comment and literally chuckled as I thought about how funny my reply was gonna be. Then I opened the replies and realized that, there’s at least one other person besides me that has a similar sense of humor! Nice work!
Harley and the AMA killed flat track. They chased the other manufacturers out. If they hadn’t stacked the deck against the other manufacturers you would be able to walk into a Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki or Suzuki dealership and buy a flat track ready race bike just like you can buy a motocross or enduro racer today.
Flat track got glorious coverage in On Any Sunday, who didn't want to ride like Mert Lawwill after seeing that? I know us kids on our Sting-Rays were sliding through corners like him--or at least pretending and trying our best. Same with jumping like Evel Knievel. And now, if it is an Indian show, so be it, they spent the money and evidently Harley and others aren't willing to pony up for better horses. And I recall Harley having success in desert racing for a time and it would've been cool if that had translated into something greater for them and all the dirt-crazy enthusiasts of the '70s. And I even got to meet and have dinner with Rocket Rex Staten in Frankfurt, West Germany in '76 when he was on a promotional tour for the Harley MX bike he was campaigning. And that was a thrill for me as I was a teenage military dependent over there and was invited by a local Maico dealer, Herr Mueller, who was an influential member of an MX club which hosted the gathering with Rocket Rex. And I still have a two-page fold-out from Cycle Guide magazine of Rex airborne on his Harley, signed by him that evening.
Yep, flat track was still THE form of motorcycle racing in America throughout most of the 70's, it was motorcross and supercross that drained the stands of flat track venues starting in the late 70's. When Marty Moates won the USGP at Carlsbad California in 1980 beating the best motorcross racers in the world from Europe that for 10 years had been coming to America and dominating the sport he became the hero of every teenage boy in America, and motorcross was a type of racing that didn't take a truck full of money and you didn't even need a driver's license to get one and start practicing, all of the sudden there was a kind of motorcycle racing teenage boys dreamed they could get into if only they could goad their parents into buying them a dirt bike, and you sure stood a better chance of getting them to buy you one of them than a road racing or flat track bike unless your dad was a millionaire, it was motorcross and supercross is what drained the stands at flat track events, not whether or not Harley was winning races like the creator of this video makes it sound like, flat track bleachers have been empty for 40 years ever since motorcross blew up.
@@dukecraig2402 I really appreciate your thoughts and I agree, this vid does seem to say that flat track would be big again if only Harley could win everything again. And I think, sadly, that Harley lost out half a century ago by not offering a variety of high-performance motorcycles for riders of all persuasions. And I tried, really I did, with an SX-175 which I bought used in Frankfurt in '76 just before I turned 17 and could ride street-legal on it then, something over 50cc. And that motorcycle was a big disappointment, more street than dirt, and it would've been perfect for a ride around town with a girlfriend but I was a motocross-infected teen ready for the GP circuit, lol. The Harley was totally forgettable and I'm not even sure how my Dad got for it when he sold it after my return to the States when I graduated from high school in '77. But then again, he also sold my '73 250 Maico and same story, but those were the days, no? Bikes were everywhere and used bikes were dirt cheap as the Maico cost me 200-bucks from a classmate and i had an after-school job at the commissary to fund my motorcycle pursuits. (And another classmate drove a used Porsche 911 and was innovative with some sort of exporting pursuit, epic.) And I sure had fun when I bought a used 50cc Honda Dax in '75 and, because I was 15, could join other American teens on their street-legal 50s, a concession to American teen military dependents and it was a kick to ride that little Honda with a friend who had a 50cc Yamaha through the woods and even on road trips to other cities, my favorite ride with him being a run to Darmstadt and back in late August of '75, the day after we both competed in a USO- and 7-Up-sponsored bicycle road race in downtown Frankfurt. And in June '76, i got to see Marty Smith race the 125 German GP and talk about epic, we got there early and Marty had camped out in a tent at the track and he was just enjoying the scene as fans arrived and mechanics prepared the machines. And wow, to go from reading all about his wins in the pages of the monthly motorcycle magazines--all the popular ones were available at the local PX magazine stand--to chatting with him like it was a camping trip was mind-blowing. And he was such a nice guy, the perfect ambassador of the sport and Honda and all of it. And in '78, when I was happily doing overnight radio at a Top-40 station in Canton, Ohio, I bought two used 125 Elsinores and lived out my motocross dreams, except for the GP part. And I grin as it was all fun, all a win, and I got to experience high-performance road riding in '79 when I worked radio in the San Francisco Bay Area and my Dad gave me free reign on his BMW R100RS, one of the first in the country as he had just brought it over from West Germany. And I did get pulled over once by a Kawasaki-mounted CHIP, but he was cool. He asked me why I was doing 85 and I explained that I was just trying to put a little distance between me and all the cars on my tail on the Bayshore Freeway in San Jose. And it was the truth and I thought he said, "Well, I'm gonna give you a ticket." And I hung my head and stared at the tank. Then he walked down the freeway to his bike--the BMW had better brakes, I guess--and he rode off. And I couldn't believe it, thanks, California Highway Patrolman. And ironically, after that good year on my Dad's BMW, my motorcycle-riding days came to a gentle conclusion and I returned to getting my two-wheeled kicks on all sorts of high-performance bicycles. But I would like to get another motorcycle or two and I see that Honda is bringing back the Dax as a 125, original design with discs and that larger engine. And these days I'm an all-season, year-around bicycle commuter, so I still have my riding chops. All I need is that little Honda to ride like a chopper. 😀
@@robbchastain3036 The stands have been empty for flat track racing since before most of these people who make videos about it and leave comments were even born. From the beginning of the sport until the late 70's it was the biggest form of motorcycle racing in America, the stands were full and the riders were heroes, then motorcross and a few years later supercross blew up and took over as the big motorcycle racing events, I've been following the sport and going to the races for years, the guy who made this video makes it sound like since Indian has been winning people have quit going, nothing could be further from the truth, people who attend flat track races ultimately don't go because of who's winning, 20 years ago when the Harley fad was at it's height the stands were half full at best, most of the people who jumped on the bandwagon and bought a Harley when it became a fad didn't even know flat track racing exists, it's just been that way for years, in the 80's when Scotty Parker was on the factory Harley team and he won 9 Grand National titles the stands were empty.
Agree with you wholeheartedly! Be better! If you don’t like loosing do better. And I’m a Harley rider of 27 years. It’s all I’ve ever ridden and it’s all I ever will but I agree
@@LukeDraleaus Board track racing was never banned. Flat track racing was always popular going back to the beginning. But it exploded in popularity after 1933 when the AMA Instituted Class C racing, where ordinary riders could compete on their own machines. Some of the films shown here are Class C events.
@@LukeDraleaus Board track racing wasn't banned everyone just grew enough brains to stop doing it. About a mile and a half from my house in southwestern Pa about 50 miles south of Pittsburgh was a board track that was the most famous in the world in it's day, the richest most important people in America and royalty from Europe used to come here to watch races at it, the reason it was so popular and prestigious was because one of the owners was the guy who owned Universal Movie Studios, he'd have highlights of races at the track shown in the movie theaters he owned in between the feature films, so everyone in America knew about the place because it had the most exposure in an era before TV's and the internet. Like most board tracks it was shut down because of a bad accident that killed non racers, those board tracks were dangerous enough for the racers but half the time there was an accident a car would wind up taking out spectators or people on the crews in the pits. Motorcycle racing on board tracks was particularly dangerous because if you fell of a bike at 110+ MPH and went sliding down the track a splinter could catch you and peel up into a giant spike you'd be impaled on, most people watching a race that saw some guy get a wooden spike up his ass that came out his mouth probably wouldn't bring the family back next week to see the races.
@@dukecraig2402, thanks for this color and insight to a bygone era. I had known about the danger to riders, but not the skinny about Universal Studios and the opportunity it presented for publicity.
@@leehaelters6182 Look up the Wikipedia page on "Uniontown Speedway", it was the board track about a half mile up the road from my house. It was shut down sometime in the 1920's because of an accident that got down into the pits and killed some mechanics, the county fathers said "Enough of that", look at the championship race results from it, none other than Louis Chevrolet himself won the first championship race there and Duesenberg's ruled most of the time. After WW2 it was reopened as a dirt track but was shut down again by the 50's or 60's, by the time I was a kid in the 70's it was a golf ball driving range and I used to whack golf balls there all the time growing up absolutely clueless to what had been there before.
Light, fast, dangerous. 80hp for reliability and 150kg max. Not for Sunday riders like literally every other bike already is. Kickstarter and no battery.
@@impalaSS65 Oh ha ha - 150kg, let's just have it cost 50K too. A battery is mandated for street legal. And it needs electric start, who cares about 10 pounds more. I do agree about the 80 RWHP. Should be doable in the 190kg +- range. It won't be cheap even then.
@@randydewees7338 Anyone interested in performance and handling cares about an easy way to shave off a hefty weight with a tall COG, without going into exotic materials. I have/had three bikes under 130kg and no battery that were street legal. KLX650R, TTR600, 610TE. The 610 was 117kg Getting a 750 to 150 kg is only because I want it to withstand jumping at 140mph.
@randy dewees Just get a KTM 690 SMC and do bolt ons. You will be there. I'd like it to have a twin also, but this is what you get. Otherwise go Aprilia RSV if you need the twin. The KTM will be better and more fun.
Suzuki is not doing everything wrong in fact they are have very good sales. They are simply the first to realize that winning on sunday and selling on monday doesnt work anymore. As all forms of motor sports are losing popularity and the ROI simply isnt there.
Amazing to see how things have changed since I saw my last flat track race. (It's been a while!) I used to go to virtually every event at Ascot, two half-miles and a TT every season. Then we'd try to make most of the San Jose and Sacramento Miles as well, plus I'd go to Daytona where the Short Track series opened the season, just as the Speedway opened the AMA roadracing series each year. I saw Scotty Parker win his first championship, clinching it at Sacramento, after ten years in the sport, and then he dominated for years after. Saw the Honda team start with the Sidewinder effort before they built their own, original motor to compete with Harley. Strange to think it's all Indian now, a name we never thought we'd see again. Ascot Park has been gone over 30 years, yet I can still see the place in my mind like I was there yesterday.
My uncle flat track raced in the Sacramento area, sometime I would guess in the late 70s through some of the 80's and a couple times in the 90s that I recall. Wonder if y'all ever raced lol
Yeah, changing the rules so slow bikes can win.... That won't work this time. When flat track was way more popular, and the rules were being changed to protect Harley against foreign competition, that pretty much worked. Changing the rules to cripple an American brand, that won't work. The old school fans won't like the action against an American company. Newer fans don't want a sport tailored for slow bikes. This will kill flat track.
@@khaccanhle1930 They have? Here's a news flash for you junior, Harley was the ONLY motorcycle manufacturer in the USA in the 70's, and apparently you and the guy who made this video don't realize that if it wasn't for Harley Davidson the new incarnation of Indian wouldn't exist, that's right, Indian didn't wasn't reborn making 4 cylinder inline racing bikes were they? No, they were reborn making bikes for the nostalgia cruiser market, the very thing that Harley invented and made into something so big that even the Japanese motorcycle companies designed bikes specifically to enter the market with, and the bikes they designed for that weren't imitations of old British or German or Italian bikes were they? No, they were imitations of Harley's and the nostalgia market they created and if it wasn't for that there wouldn't be a new Indian company in the first place. The maker of this video can praise Indian and rag on Harley all he wants but the fact is Indian created a race bike to compete in a type of racing that there was only one company that ran in it, it's not like they designed a Moto GP bike and had to compete against 5 or 6 other companies with cutting edge technology that have the financial backing of an automotive division that sells millions of cars a year, Honda, or the financial backing of a billion dollar heavy industries corporation, Kawasaki, or any of the other Moto GP racers who are either a division of a huge corporation or are owned by a huge automotive conglomerate, yea, look into who owns those Italian motorcycle companies, BMW or Fiat or whoever it is that's the latest owner of them and dumps truck loads of money and tech into them, Harley isn't owned by GM or Ford, they pretty much go about it themselves and when they do have engineering done by an outside source they have to pay through the nose for it, even Plymouth had the luxury of having an engineer from Chrysler's missile division have to report to them to work out the aerodynamics for the Superbird, Indian didn't go racing in a world that's run by multi billion dollar corporations and started winning every race they entered, they went racing in a world that the big competition has a yearly profit that's less than the money any of those companies that race moto GP spend in advertising. Something else he fails to realize that he even mentions in the video is the fact that Indian had a huge European automobile conglomerate design that engine, it's not like the guy's at Indian's headquarters sat down and did it, they contracted it out. So basically Indian went racing in a sport that the only real competition is a company that sells a fraction of the vehicles and has a fraction of the money that those high tech Moto GP racers make. So what, they beat Harley Davidson, if they were out there beating Honda and Ducati and all those other companies that have multi billion dollar backing at their racing game that might be something to brag about. And the half empty stands at flat track events that he mentions in this video have been half empty since the late 70's/early 80's, that seismic shift happened back then because motorcycle racing interests in America went to motorcross then even more a few years later to supercross racing, that's what took over as the big spectator sport in America when it comes to motorcycle racing, when Marty Moates beat the best European motorcross racers in the 1980 USGP at Carlsbad California he became a national hero and the idol of every motorcycle loving teenage boy in America, and made every one of them that dreamed about motorcycle racing think that motorcross was a form of motorcycle racing they could possibly get into, that's what drained the stands at the flat track event's, teenage boys motorcycle heroes went from flat track racers like Mert Lawill and Jay Springsteen to motorcross racers like Bob "The Hurricane" Hannah and Marty Moates, when Scotty Parker won 9 Grand National flat track championship's throughout the 80's and early 90's the stands were empty, and he got all of them on a Harley, so no one can blame Harley losing to Indian as why the stands are half empty, they've been that way for 40 years because starting in the early 80's in a few short years flat track racing became a forgotten sport, even though Harley won the title almost every year during that decade.
@@dukecraig2402 Great post duke my friend. The truth is not welcome by Harley Davidson bashers and haters here. You know the "clothing and T-shirt company" making motorcycles on the side since 1903 with all Chinese parts. GMAFB! Like "Victory", how long before "Indian" becomes just another brand flopping and failing to compete in Harley Davidson's marker segment? How many Yamaha Star cruisers have lasted on showroom floors for more than 5-years before disappearing from the catalog? Or Suzuki and Kawasaki rip-off cruiser HD clones with their dohc wonder engines that nobody can work on without a computer. How many proud Americans like this rider made good money on their Harley Davidson stocks for many years, and provided jobs for Americans Casting our pearls before swine I know. Take care duke.
Here living in my part of Florida we have former Grand National AMA racer # 23 Kevin Atherton. He literally has one of his old XR750 race bikes set up and legally registered for the street. He carries a small backpack around with a starter and a battery in it to start it everywhere it goes when he stops. It is one badass motorcycle!
GREAT VIDEO! I especially liked the dig at Harley at the end. Harley lost to Indian at the bagger road racing series!! Harley rolled over and has played dead for sure in Flattrack. Harley will not spend the money on racing. There's no profit in racing only expense. 90 percent of Harley customers do not give a rats ass about racing, AT ALL.
Really ... In 1968 I rode against my buddy Bart Markel who was a factory rider for Harley. He was sponsored in the 250 cc Class with a Sprint on the 1/4 mile in Flint, Michigan and an XLCH (I think a 650 cc) on the mile at many places, notably DRC (Detroit Race Course). He could hit 125 mph on the straight while peeking under the handle bar and holding the shock tower in his left hand. He held more Grand National Championships that any other rider of the day. "Me" ??? I could consistently finish second in any race where there were two bikes running. Also ... I don't remember any Indians.
Richard, were you part of the pack chasing Bart, Mert, Dick, Gene, etc on the flattracks in that Bruce Brown movie we all saw in '72? That was a golden era!
I just want to make a couple of corrections. But in 1968 Bart raced a KR750 and his Sprint was a CRS 250. My uncle is Sam Arena (RIP) and he owned Sam Arena's Harley Davidson in San Jose, CA. My father was the service manager and was the tech that measured the bore and stroke of the winning HDs if they placed in the top three, back then the top three finishers were measure at the track, and I worked there from 1973 to 75 or so. When the Harley Race team came to town for the San Jose 1/2 or 1 miles nationals they all stopped by at my uncle's shop. I got to meet Mart Lawwill and Mark Brelsford. I raced from 1970 to 76 and I raced Harleys until Mert Lawwill answered my question of how to make my ERS 350 more competitive. He simply said get a Yamaha. ;-) In my opinion these years through the mid 80's were the best years of flattrack racing.
@@bryanwhitton1784 It was an experience. As I said, I raced against Bart in 1968, along with another local celebrity who used the track name "Charlie Chapel" (actually William Chapel) whom I attended high school with. Charlie rode a Yamaha and he was the only real competition for Bart. I need to point out that we called him "Black Bart" because even though he was diminutive (140 lbs at his heaviest), he had the competitive streak of a giant. That nature would present itself in feature events where one of his favorite tricks was to come inside you in turn 3 and bump your rear tire. Most of the time not enough to spill you, just increase your pucker-factor while he would slide by. Another thing he would do for the fans was come out of turn 4 aiming almost straight at the wall. The front tire would hit and climb the wall about 2 feet, making it look like a crash at first. He was a very talented man. I watched him several times at a practice track in Grand Blanc, MI replete with moguls. He was the only rider I ever saw do steep wheelies "down" a hill.
@@richardgreen7811 That's funny. The bumping trick is something I have used myself. It get slower people out of the way nicely. 😉 I remember one story about him and his KR from his early days. They were traveling between races and they wanted to test his bike, not sure what that meant, so they unloaded it in the middle of nowhere and pulled out Freddie Nix's bike and raced them down the freeway to compare. They were shocked at how much slower his bike was yet he was winning consistently on it. Says a lot about his corner speed. Those days were great fun. I remember when it was time to renew my pro license the last time. I was sitting in the living room and looked at my financials and my new baby daughter and wife and had to decide what was more important. My daughter and wife won. I couldn't afford racing and being a husband and father. I just sat there on the floor and cried. I packed everything into a box and sold my racing equipment to my brother and walked away. I knew I wasn't going to worry KR that I was on the track and I couldn't justify the cost. But man was it fun. To my wife's credit, she never once asked me to quit. She supported me completely which actually made the decision easier. Man those days were fun!
Having Jared Mees who is one of the greatest dirt trackers of all time certainly hasn’t hurt for Indian. Also worth noting, the FTR750 isn’t a production bike nor does it have a production engine. The XR750 was a production based engine, as is the XG750R. They aren’t in Production Twins because they aren’t eligible, and production twins is being dominated by… a Harley and is a better comparison of what companies can bring to the table, be it Harley, Yamaha, Royal Enfield, Kawasaki or KTM. The production twins bikes are getting really close to where Supertwins are at performance wise.
@@tokyosmash you mean the super twins points where Indian still won the Championship 1,2 ahead of the Yamaha even after they've neutered the shit out of the ftr? Ya man production twins was made to give everyone else a place to win.
I got to say it; the NHRA has also created classes just for Harley. They couldn’t compete with the other brands, so they handicapped them, so Harley can use bigger displacement while slowing the others etc.
The AMA catered to Hardly Dependable kissed their ass and passed weight rules and carburetor restrictions against Honda in particular and they still beat HD. American flat track saved the series . If they could only get Dave Dispain back
A mention of Kenny Roberts and Yamaha making a go with the TZ750 2 stroke should have been included as the first serious Japanese manufacture to contest Harley's 45deg twin. It was a super historical watershed moment for flattracking. That was the moment 2 strokes became unsuited for flattrack. Great vid though. Ty.
How can the AMA not come out and tell everyone why Indian have not adhered to the rules and brought a road engine out, how can road based engines yamaha ktm kawasaki and the rest compete against a full on race engine?
Hardly Abelson has always been reticent to break away from obsolete technology. It's distressing that they've focused on implementing regulations to hamstring the Indians rather than directing their efforts toward becoming compettitive again.
Indians were from the beginning much better motorcycles than HD. The only reason Harley survived the great dispersion (and not only), was because it had the right connections to get contracts from the army and the police.
Not true. Harley gained over Indian because they were more robust and heavy duty on the road when Indian was still building glorified motor bicycles. Indian did win a lot of early races though.
If you're smart, Indians have always been better bikes. Harley is powered by nostalgia and machismo. Not performance, race numbers, weight or tech. And if you go to bring up police and army you might as well bring up Reagan. That company would have died long ago if you didn't lock out the Japanese. Good work by the way Japanese bikes have been failing ever since. On my side HD stands for "hopefully dead?". That goes for your crashes too, start waving to people
In England the Indian motorcycle not only for Flat track racing but Brooklyn’s Isle of Man TT and various other competitions would’ve won the most serious competitors that we’ve ever had just very very beautifully prepared and maintained engines Harley-Davidson always seemed yes the XR 750 was a nice bike but if you look back in the early days the Indians always wear a better motorcycle looking another world of motorcycles from England enjoy your program Michael
On a typical Friday night at Ascot back in the day, there'd be Harleys, Triumphs, BSAs, Nortons, Yamahas, and even, from time to time a Suzuki 500 and a Benelli 650! Those were the days.....
Id love to see Indian get into a Superbike. A 1000cc V-Twin for street and AMA and a V4 Superbike for street and World Superbike. Why give all the glory to Ducati? Do it right and they would all sell.
I had the privilege to ride an Indian Scout and it was fast. I've also seen Triumph win in the vintage class at two major swap meets. I bought my '50 Triumph Thunderbird project from a guy that put brakes on his Harley XR750 and told me he rode it full throttle and would get pulled over the majority of the time. I agree, Harley needs to up their game.
Nailed it! All the Harley fans act like HD is a victim because they were supposedly told that flat track was going to production based engines. Step up to the plate! You’re the biggest motorcycle manufacturer on the planet!
I’m afraid Harley might be dead by 2030, their customer base is shrinking and their technology is stagnant. They are locked into a situation where the big V twin is their best and worst asset at the same time
I don't think it's ever going to die, it may have a small but definitely dedicated customer base. As for new customers though? New models are unreliable and way too expensive.
10:00 "Something Harley did once, 50 years ago, but they haven't done it since" I feel like this statement can be used for ANY thing Harley has done or not done post AMF years. When the company was brought (bought) back to its "roots" as the fans might say. And at 11:12 isn't that what they did to other manufacturers when Harley was falling behind them? Seems like this is a pattern with sanctioning bodies (or heck the US government) and The Motor Company.
A lot of people don't know that the Sturgis motorcycle rally was actually started by an Indian dealer who started a club and a flat track race there to improve sales. The rest as they say is history.
I loved the Victory Octane when it came out pushing advancement in racing. It was crushing to see Victory pull the plug so that Indians could have all the attention. But I knew that eventually that learned advancement would come out in some Indian package. So I really welcome the Indian FTR.
Excellent video, as always. H-D deserves condemnation, not that they'd care about any criticism. They only compete when no one shows up. They are great at emptying the pockets of dentists wishing to cosplay in leather, and yeah those bikes are great in that niche. As for AFT, I have little interest in watching a "sport" filled with artificial competition only designed to cater to morons who think a variety of nameplates must mean they're competitive.
I think it was JFK that once said "We choose to [do these things] not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." It seems like Harley is fine with just rolling over and accepting the easy money, rather than investing in the future of motorcycle riders.
AFT... it’s pretty sad when you have to have bikes from the support and junior class line up at the back of the grid to make a full field in the main event class. AMA slowly put a strangle hold in favor HD and now AFT & The France group is trying to turn it into stockcar racing which is just spec racing, cookie cutter classes.
But the AMA allowed Indian into racing in 2017 with the promise that Indian brought out a road engine( FTR 750) is a purpose built race engine, within 3 years.
Yeah, innovation has to be just enough to not be restricted/regulated to be "fair". Most every iconic race car was regulated out of the sport. Even modern F1 has a few new break throughs, that get regulated for next season. The Yamaha TX350 was the epic 2 stroke of the 70s, guess what killed it?
Adding new rules to restrict strategies and specific companies just undermines the sport. We have a saying in gaming when people are getting beat, GET GOOD. This is why I won't watch these sports.
Yamaha is the only competition . When Kawasaki won the AMA made it slower to let Harley to compete. So Kawasaki isn’t that interested same as Honda . I believe that Indian is American so they don’t slow it down . 5 years ago over 1/2 where Kawasaki. Now it’s Indian that is over 1/2 .
The best riders all came from flat track. Kenny Roberts and Jay Springsteen were untouchable and better than anyone now. The riders aren’t better now, only the bikes are faster.
Yes Australia introduced dirt track racing into England back in the 20's. One Guy even took a heavily modified 125 BSA Bantam to England and competed against 500 cc bikes.
As a teenager I loved watching Phil Crump in Mildura on those wicked methanol burning no brakes Speedway bikes. I wonder how'd the Indian FTR's would fair against FIM Speedway bikes?
@@DukeOfTwist As a kid in the 40's and 50's ,. a friend of mines father was a former speedway competitor with a mate hanging out of the outfit on tracks like Tracys speedway and the Showgrounds in Melbourne, he had retired but still had an interest in all forms of motor bike racing, we, as kids got to be taken to a few events and saw some pretty spectacular stuff, also taken to hill climbs and watched competitors doing crazy things like racing up steep slopes and sometimes falling over backwards. Safety seemed to be pretty haphazard in those days, His father at one stage had a Vincent HRD Black Shadow, I bet they wish the family still had it today.
I watched Road-Racing & Flat-track since I was in my teens, and guys like Calvin Rayborn II was my favorite riding a Harley-Davidson 750cc. His ability to outride others on the infields was amazing, but he was always out done on the banked ovals on track like Daytona where Yamaha's & Suzuki's flew by him. It was the lack of power that made him move and accept an offer to ride for the Suzuki Team. He went from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke engine and seizures happen quit frequently, especially when you are full throttle, and that is what killed him. He was, I believe, the best rider HD ever had. RIP Cal!
Every time i see Indians flat track bikes I just get sad, such a wasted chance to make and awesome production streetbike in a style with basically no competition. No, the FTR1200 does not count, its a flat track in name only, its really a streetfighter more than anything else. The level of dissapointment the community had when they revealed the production model was... A lot, from what I can find Indian spent a few years paying people to remove the scathing complaints from the internet due to that release. Its very hard to find all the articles from the time. I can understand from a business perspective that they did not predict the backlash in the slightest, and with all the tooling and manufaturing costs already sunk it wasn't like they could just redo it. Rant over, I really want a real flat track production bike to own and ride. Edit: On that note, I would love to see you do a video on that entire project and release. There was a LOT of buzz and excitement about the FTR production model and while not catastrophic, the actual release did not go as well as i think Indian thought it would.
You call it flat track we call it speedway motorbikes in the UK. Short track racing in America and small dirt track racing in australia who invented it and was won by an American in the first seasons.
No substitute for cubic dollars. The HD XR has not had factory support since the 80's. Should not have been THAT hard to beat them. Not to disrespect Yamaha but 2-stroke engines are not that suitable for flat track. A narrow power band with a sudden build up is not optimal.
Hold your horsepower’s there for a min. The comparison you made with Ducati and Indian is wayyy off base. In fact Moto GP made the same “rule changes” for the Ducati when they were getting destroyed by every other brand barely making the top 10 around 2010.
My thoughts exactly, perhaps Bart is a fairly new Moto GP fan? Only started tuning in a few years ago when Ducati started dominating? I could be wrong but he seems to be ill informed about much of Moto GP history, which is fine we all had to start somewhere i suppose. His comments regarding Suzuki were also rather head turning i thought lol.
Win on Sunday sell on Monday ... Indian should build a 750cc Sportster like Harley did. The competition on the race track should lead to a street worthy bike that resembles their sport bike. And a light 750/1000 with 50/80 hp would be enough to be street worthy
Let's be real honest Harley-Davidson made it way too easy for Indian to get in and take over the market Harley-Davidson is always been there and that's their model they're just there they never tried to improve on anything performance wise the only way they know how to add more power is by adding cubic inches and let's be real the kids of today want things that perform that are actually fast and light and quick and that's everything I Harley-Davidson isn't
The reason why no other manufacturers are putting the money into flat track racing is it's not cost effective. All the manufacturers were told they were going to production based bikes but changed their mind.
Harley Davidson was so dominate by the simple fact it was always being given benefits, 1st against the Brits, then the Japanese cycles. To dominate as long as they did speaks volumes to the politics of HD & the AMA. Now Indians back in the game HD is attempting to catch up. The innovations of Indian have put a wrench in HD's dominance. Love it. BTW besides my 750 Bonneville, Street bikes were always HD's. Seems as if HD got arrogant and that's why they're playing catch up now. A friend had a XR750 that'd run mid to high 7 sec. 1/4 mile. If he weighed 160lbs I'd be shocked but it was wild that'd run that fast without launch control and all the crap the put on these new mc's
'Flat track' racing is practised all over the world but it is called 'Speedway' or 'Grass track' or even 'Ice track racing', depending on the surface that's raced on.
I believe the current rules are a purpose built engine-750cc while a regular production engine 900cc plus .040 over bore,what makes indian so good is it has a very heavy crankshaft,it's been said by engineers you'd never design one that heavy for regular street use
Well let's be honest, flag track racing has such a small audience nowadays I could see why Harly really doesn't care to respond. It was an easy target for Indian to come back and build their name with. I doubt you're gonna see any manufacturer putting big money into FTR again. The ROI isn't really there unless you're trying to build a brand.
Have my XR1000 highly modified with Storz and Jerry Branch parts so it actually looks and goes like an XR750. And now (2019) an FTR1200. Guess I'm a flat track fan.
@@tonyciriello6872 I don't know about that, if they were all assembled in 83 I'd think they'd all be titled as 83's, like all the Corvettes that were sold in 83 were titled as 82's because that's when they were built because the Corvette plant shut down in 83 to retool for the new 84's, they simply built enough in 82 to sell all the way through the end of the 83 model year but they were all titled as 82's, once a VIN is stamped on a vehicle that's it's date and year of manufacture, that's why you can tell all the way down to the day and date when a vehicle was manufactured by the VIN, by law they couldn't have assembled a vehicle in 1983 and then waited to title it in 1984, the VIN number year and date codes for it's assembly wouldn't jive with the title year. I do know that the XR1000's weren't built on the regular assembly line, the were assembled by the racing department under the supervision of it's head Dick O'Brian and that all the heads were sent to Branch Flowmetrics to be worked over by them.
@@dukecraig2402 Yes. I have a poster of Dick O'Brian on the wall of my cave right in front of me as I type. I sent the heads to Branch to do even more work as part of a performance hop up I read about in Cycle World. Work of art. Also have his flatslide carbs with matching manifolds that matched the intake ports. Just beautiful. From Storz have upsidedown forks, tank and seat combo, works performance shocks, custom lower braced aluminum swingarm built by Cal-fab. I think you would like this bike.
@@tonyciriello6872 Yea, it's safe to say I'd like it. I have an 03 R model, the one's that are painted like the factory flat track racing bikes. I converted it to 1200, I was going to put inverted forks and every other bell and whistle on it but decided instead to make it a sleeper, I put a huge set of Red Shift cams in it but figured out how to keep the stock non collapsible push rod tubes with adjustable push rods and travel limiters in the lifters so anyone who looked at it would think it has bolt in cams at best, 44mm Screamin Eagle CV carb that looks like stock, did the ports myself modeled after the one's I've sent to Branch from my shop, figured out how to balance the pressed together flywheels myself and set the balance factor at 52% for high revs, Race Tech emulator valves in the front forks and slid the triple trees as far down the forks as possible without the front fender smashing into the voltage regulator if the forks bottom out, that makes it turn faster, with the rear shocks there really wasn't much I could do that would keep a stock appearance but most everyone has aftermarket shocks on the back anyways and a Kerker 2 into 1 upswept exhaust just as a nod to the 80's. It exceeds 65 MPH in first gear which a lot of guys say is impossible and will even do the math thinking that they're proving it, then I tell them to reconfigure the math for an Andrews close ratio first gear and they'll see that at 7,500 RPM's my speedometer is just sweeping past 65 MPH, I didn't put that first gear in it just to exceed 65 MPH in first gear that's just a byproduct, I did it so when I shift into first on the winding mountain roads where I live the revs don't go through the roof and cause the rear tire to break traction, when coming out of a hairpin turn the revs are right up in the power and it slingshots right out. I've got a bunch of other little tricks in it that are hidden like an aluminum front pulley that doesn't suck up nearly as much power as the heavy stock cast iron pulley and a windage tray and flywheel scraper I put in the bottom end. It's deceiving to look at, guy's who think they know what they're looking at figure it's got bolt in cams and stock forks on the front, a set of Avon Cobra Chrome tires makes it go around corners like it's on rails, guy's who figure they know what it is get a real big surprise when I get them out on the road.
Harley knows one thing only Harley Riders know . Harleys are the only motorcycle , everything else is two wheels with a motor. That comes from being an Icon . And knowing when everyone says motorcycle the first thing that comes to mind is the name and form of harley.
I believe you meant to say heat dissipation. The heat of displacement is the heat change when one mole of metal is displaced from its salt solution by a more reactive metal.
I agree Strongly, Indians Flat Track Bike Innovation and Technology Should Not be dumbed down At All. It's up to each manufacturer to keep up with advancing technology's, research and development. Harley Get with the Times Up your bike game.
AFT is fantastic and all this talk of the 750's in the Premier Class, which is superb....BUT.....the "competitive" class is the AFT Singles class. Give THOSE guys (AND my girl Shayna!!) a gander!!
Great video Bart! While I'm commenting here: Spite from YN now has his own channel! Search for "Spite's corner"! Sadly he was sacked by YN. Go support him!
I love the concept like you say of invading sport and pushing the limits but let's be honest flat track bikes are like speedway bikes they're kept very simple for a very simple reason light is fast you start adding more weight and making things heavier it's harder to control now that Harley-Davidson isn't relevant in flat track anymore it just seems like they're sticking spoke should I say to try and level the playing field instead of adding more technology keep them simple keep them light powerful and fast and that's exactly what Indian did now it's just time for everybody else to follow suit
They'll be back and seriously competitive in a couple of years, don't think for a second that somewhere in a back room in the old racing department they aren't already working on a flat track version of that new Sportster S engine. I have the hots for that Bronx model they were supposed to release and then pulled from their line up, I really hope they bring it back, I'll sell a bike or two to get one of them.
When the sport changes to a manufacturer series it takes all interest out of the sport . Flat track in it's hay day had many Privateers riding all kinds of bikes and it was a hell of a lot more interesting to watch .
Same story about stock car racing. The local tracks had many different cars with many different size engines.
And USAC Championship cars were of many chasi and engines.
80's into 90's for me was the golden era of flat track
Why is it less interesting to watch now? The bikes are just as fast and the racing is just as competitive.
Apparently the creator of this video and most everyone who is commenting doesn't know the history of flat track racing and audience attendance.
From it's creation and all the way throughout most of the 70's AMA Grand National flat track was THE form of motorcycle racing in America, just watch the 1976 movie The Bad News Bears, Jackie Earl Haley's character Kelly Leek at one point has a T-shirt on that says "Flat Tracker" on it, all that started to change in the late 70's and especially in 1980 when Marty Moates won the USGP motorcross race at Carlsbad California, he beat the best European motorcross racers who'd always dominated the sport even when they'd come over here to America, but when Moates beat them he became the hero of every teenage boy in America who dreamed about motorcycle's and racing them, then just a few years later supercross became popular and the flat track stands drained with everyone going to watch motorcross and supercross, suddenly the idols of teenage boys went from Mert Lawill and Jay Springsteen to Bob "The Hurricane" Hannah and Marty Moates, and that's because young boys too young to ride a street bike could goad their parents into buying them a dirt bike with hopes that they could get on a track and go somewhere, compared to motorcycle flat track and road racing which took more money than any kid could get out of his parents to get into, overnight motorcross racers were the new heroes and the flat track stands emptied.
Scotty Parker won his 9 Grand National championships in the 80's and early 90's at a time when Harley pretty much dominated the sport and the stands were empty, the creator of this video makes it sound like they're empty nowadays because of Harley but the fact is they've been empty for 40 years now even when Harley was dominating the sport, it's not their fault it's just that motorcross and supercross took over as the big spectator sport for motorcycle racing in America 40 years ago.
Oh flat track is speedway. I never knew.
@@dukecraig2402 Blah blah blah, one eyed rubbish....
04:00. If we’re going to be accurate , Kenny Roberts Yamaha bike destroyed the XR750 but was outlawed / banned because of its success.
The only reazon hd dominate is banning other brands most of the classes you pretty mutch can race minibike super moto and everything else is hd crap
It was banned because KR said it was a death machine!
Honda stopped stomped the shit out of Harley and the early eighties Ricky Graham Bubba showbirt any harly win after the rule changes by the ama suck.
Partially true,it only won one race,but it was to dangerous
They banned it because it was a 2 stroke engine, the rules for Superbike don't allow for 2 stroke engine's do they? Or are you going to try blaming that on Harley to?
The truth is they shouldn't even have allowed that bike to race that day, the only reason they did was because the AMA didn't have a rule specifically denying 2 stroke engine's in Grand National racing simply because no one had ever done it.
Yamaha developed that bike in Japan in complete secret because they knew if the AMA even caught wind of it they'd have immediately made a rule banning 2 stroke engine's, then after developing it in total secret they shipped it to Springfield and uncrated it the day of the race, the fact is the AMA should have banned it from even going on the track that day.
When 4 stroke dirt bikes started racing in motorcross they were allowed somewhere around twice the displacement of 2 strokes in the same class weren't they? And that's for the same reason that Yamaha should only have been allowed to run a 2 stroke bike on a Grand National track with half the displacement of the other bikes, the only reason that thing even got on the track was Yamaha pulling a sneaky trick getting around a rule that hadn't been written simply because it was a given with everyone that Grand National bikes are 4 stroke.
So they pulled their dirty trick and snuck up on everyone and got their win that day then that night the AMA passed a rule that only 4 strokes can compete in flat track, something that was already a given with any bike that'd been on a flat track including Triumph, BSA, Honda and just about any other manufacturer you can think of and they were all behind the ban.
AMA has a long history of favoring Harley. They are doing it again; each time there's a better product and another brand starts winning races, new rules are right around the corner.
The Indian has been so Dominate that they have now restricted the intake size on the Indian .. and don't allow as much wheel weights on the Indain ..
The Indians are so throttled back now that Yamaha has won a couple of races...
The idea was to keep costs down requiring Production based bikes... The Problem is that it can cost more to build a Yamaha FZ-07 Framer than to buy a Brand New Indian for $42,000.00
In the Production engine class the FG-750 has won a few races beating the Yamaha's and Kawasakis..
First off no they haven't, people from Europe, England in particular are always crying and saying that in the 60's for Harley's sake the AMA limited OHV engine's to 500cc, that's a bunch of malarkey, that rule was enacted in 1932 when no European bikes raced flat track and there was over 150 motorcycle manufacturers in America.
The AMA has NEVER done anything to "favor Harley", the AMA has always set rules like limiting displacement on OHV engines back in 1932 and later limiting displacement on 4V engines because their policy has always been that one manufacturer shouldn't have a huge advantage over others because they wanted it to be about the most talented rider's and not the richest company, the idea was to keep one company from being able to price out your average racer by charging so much for one of their bikes, after the Great Depression and WW2 and Indian went out of business in the early 50's Harley was the only manufacturer making a bottom end that favored flat track racing, the knife in fork flywheel type bottom end that everyone rags on just so happens to be what works so well on a flat track, if it was a matter of just making a more powerful engine of the same displacement and type Harley would have been dethroned a long time ago, but since no one else built a bottom end the way American motorcycle's were made back in the day, which is what flat track racing evolved around they lost, all through the 70's after the AMA lifted the displacement limiting for OHV engines every other bike could and did run 750cc OHV engines, but Harley dominated the sport then because no one else built a heavy flywheel type bottom end, that's what keeps the rear wheel from breaking traction so badly when it's skipping along going around the corner on an uneven dirt track.
Harley won so much throughout those years simply because they had years more experience at what they were doing and because of their "outdated" bottom end that just so happens to work well in that type of racing, now that other manufacturers have gotten years of experience at it and realized why Harley's worked so well they started making flat track racing engines with external changeable different weight flywheels, now they're winning, it's simply a matter of their experience caught up when back in the 70's Harley had 50 years experience and everyone else was trying to figure out what they knew.
The AMA has never favored Harley despite everyone that's always crying that, they've NEVER wanted a manufacturer to make the difference, that's the way their rules have ALWAYS been set up long before European and Japanese motorcycle's started competing in American flat track racing.
The government has done the same. Tbh the only reason their primitive bikes are still around is all the rules and regulations and laws that have saved the company time and time again. Whether it was saving it from losing races or saving it from going bankrupt. It’s sad that they can’t just keep up with everyone else so they cry for help and they always get it so here we are where they’re so technologically behind everyone else. Although they are finally trying to catch up at least some
@@leviminton3320
Nonsense, first off read my comment above your's to learn the truth behind the displacement ruling about OHV engine's being limited to 500cc's until the 70's, that rule WAS NOT enacted in the 60's to cripple European bikes as everyone claims, it was enacted in 1932 when no foreign bikes raced American flat track and there was over 150 motorcycle manufacturers in America with some making OHV engine's.
And as far as the ONE TIME for just A FEW YEARS that a tax was put on large displacement import bikes to help level the financial playing field to keep Harley from going out of business SO WHAT?
Are you really that toxic of a person that you'd like to have seen the last American motorcycle manufacturer who makes the kind of bikes you obviously have no interest in anyways go out of business?
Wow, nice guy, the fact is Harley was the only motorcycle manufacturer that wasn't backed by a multi billion dollar corporation, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki are all divisions of that are a fraction of their parent corporations, not only does someone like Honda have engineering and engineers from their much more profitable automotive division that their motorcycle division can benefit from but more importantly all those companies could afford to flood the American market with bikes they were actually losing money on in order to drive Harley out of business, Harley doesn't have a multi billion dollar corporation backing it that can throw all kinds of money into them, so what if they make motorcycle's you have no interest in anyway, you'd rather see them go bankrupt and the people who like them have lost the one source that makes what they like? No, you're not a spiteful person, what happened did a Harley rider run over your puppy when you were a little kid that you feel it so necessary to spit venom at their motorcycle's and the people who ride them?
I've owned motorcycle's from just about every motorcycle manufacturer at one point or the other and I've loved every one of them, that's because I'm a motorcyclist, and I wouldn't want to see any of the motorcycle manufacturer's go out of business, I really don't care what someone else rides, it's their money they're spending so it's none of my business what they buy and ride around on, whatever it is I hope it makes them happy because that's what motorcycling is supposed to be about.
exactly ask Honda remember when the AMA drove them out
Sorry my friend but I have to disagree Indian motorcycles, dominated flat track history and races during the 1930s into the 40s with riders like Ted Evans and Ed (Iron Man) Kretz and of course Jimmy Kelly!!! If you would like to know more contact me because my father is Ted Evans being a factory Indian Rider
Harley got the AMA to restrict British bikes to 500 cc's while Harleys were 750'cc's .. and the British bikes still won so they restricted compression ratios and Carburetor sizes too.
The AMA officials recieved extensive
training in Russia.
They should have Harley-only race classes. It's the only way they're going to win.
500cc overhead valves vs 750 side valves,I believe in 69 they updated the rules to allow 750 ohv engines race.routt made the big bore kits for Triumph while BSA stroked theirs- the A70 model,many of the brit bikes you see racing in the old vids are on factory frames and 650 cc,Triumph gamed the rules too as they had to have a factory stamp,they went to a fabricator and asked them to build a frame and Triumph would stamp a Part number,the company became Trackmaster, probably the most famous of the old dirt track race frames
They were allowed to run 750cc engine's after Harley released the XR750, what happened after that? What's their excuse then?
Harley 883 racing was a Harley only class. @@adotintheshark4848
I didn't even know about flat track when I started shopping for my first bike and the FTR was the one bike that caught my eye at the Indian dealership. It was out of my budget but my god was it beautiful.
Agreed!
Thr FTR is a God Tier naked ripper. Only bikes like them are Italian machines costing double. Even then, the FTR1200 typically wipes the podium with 1st, 2nd AND 3rd.
it is....
Saw my first FTR Carbon at the dealership in Bridgend in Wales at the end of August 2020 and was immediately impressed. It’s too heavy and silly money, but impossible to ignore, unlike virtually every Harley since 1976.
Peace
There is a street version? I'm not a huge bike guy, so I had never heard of the FTR til I saw this video. But I like it!
Harley, yesterdays technology at todays prices. Nuff said.
😆😅😂
*tomorrow's prices
The price of parts for Harley is out of this world. I have had more fun on my SR 500 Yamaha than I will ever have on my 200 sportster or my SS350 Aermacchi Harley.
You have said what ,I have been trying to get people ,(at least what I think are people 😂) to see for as long as I remember.
@@gregorsamsa1364 dude you beat me to it! I read that comment and literally chuckled as I thought about how funny my reply was gonna be. Then I opened the replies and realized that, there’s at least one other person besides me that has a similar sense of humor! Nice work!
Harley doesn’t really care about innovating. At this point they’re basically an apparel and accessory company that sells motorcycles on the side.
Old fart dress up cosplay as pirates.
T shirts and Jackets are made in China
yep basically same bike for decades just more shitty crap hanging on it
@@RT22-pb2ppthey have sold adventure touring bikes for decades?
@@RT22-pb2pp WRONG.
Flat track racing started on the tracks that were already built at every county fairgrounds. Horse tracks.
Yep, 100% true.
Harley and the AMA killed flat track.
They chased the other manufacturers out. If they hadn’t stacked the deck against the other manufacturers you would be able to walk into a Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki or Suzuki dealership and buy a flat track ready race bike just like you can buy a motocross or enduro racer today.
And now they are doing the exact same thing to Indian as they did to Honda.
The only reason Indian hasn't been banned outright is because it is an American brand.
Flat track got glorious coverage in On Any Sunday, who didn't want to ride like Mert Lawwill after seeing that? I know us kids on our Sting-Rays were sliding through corners like him--or at least pretending and trying our best. Same with jumping like Evel Knievel. And now, if it is an Indian show, so be it, they spent the money and evidently Harley and others aren't willing to pony up for better horses. And I recall Harley having success in desert racing for a time and it would've been cool if that had translated into something greater for them and all the dirt-crazy enthusiasts of the '70s. And I even got to meet and have dinner with Rocket Rex Staten in Frankfurt, West Germany in '76 when he was on a promotional tour for the Harley MX bike he was campaigning. And that was a thrill for me as I was a teenage military dependent over there and was invited by a local Maico dealer, Herr Mueller, who was an influential member of an MX club which hosted the gathering with Rocket Rex. And I still have a two-page fold-out from Cycle Guide magazine of Rex airborne on his Harley, signed by him that evening.
Yep, flat track was still THE form of motorcycle racing in America throughout most of the 70's, it was motorcross and supercross that drained the stands of flat track venues starting in the late 70's.
When Marty Moates won the USGP at Carlsbad California in 1980 beating the best motorcross racers in the world from Europe that for 10 years had been coming to America and dominating the sport he became the hero of every teenage boy in America, and motorcross was a type of racing that didn't take a truck full of money and you didn't even need a driver's license to get one and start practicing, all of the sudden there was a kind of motorcycle racing teenage boys dreamed they could get into if only they could goad their parents into buying them a dirt bike, and you sure stood a better chance of getting them to buy you one of them than a road racing or flat track bike unless your dad was a millionaire, it was motorcross and supercross is what drained the stands at flat track events, not whether or not Harley was winning races like the creator of this video makes it sound like, flat track bleachers have been empty for 40 years ever since motorcross blew up.
@@dukecraig2402 I really appreciate your thoughts and I agree, this vid does seem to say that flat track would be big again if only Harley could win everything again. And I think, sadly, that Harley lost out half a century ago by not offering a variety of high-performance motorcycles for riders of all persuasions. And I tried, really I did, with an SX-175 which I bought used in Frankfurt in '76 just before I turned 17 and could ride street-legal on it then, something over 50cc. And that motorcycle was a big disappointment, more street than dirt, and it would've been perfect for a ride around town with a girlfriend but I was a motocross-infected teen ready for the GP circuit, lol. The Harley was totally forgettable and I'm not even sure how my Dad got for it when he sold it after my return to the States when I graduated from high school in '77. But then again, he also sold my '73 250 Maico and same story, but those were the days, no? Bikes were everywhere and used bikes were dirt cheap as the Maico cost me 200-bucks from a classmate and i had an after-school job at the commissary to fund my motorcycle pursuits. (And another classmate drove a used Porsche 911 and was innovative with some sort of exporting pursuit, epic.) And I sure had fun when I bought a used 50cc Honda Dax in '75 and, because I was 15, could join other American teens on their street-legal 50s, a concession to American teen military dependents and it was a kick to ride that little Honda with a friend who had a 50cc Yamaha through the woods and even on road trips to other cities, my favorite ride with him being a run to Darmstadt and back in late August of '75, the day after we both competed in a USO- and 7-Up-sponsored bicycle road race in downtown Frankfurt. And in June '76, i got to see Marty Smith race the 125 German GP and talk about epic, we got there early and Marty had camped out in a tent at the track and he was just enjoying the scene as fans arrived and mechanics prepared the machines. And wow, to go from reading all about his wins in the pages of the monthly motorcycle magazines--all the popular ones were available at the local PX magazine stand--to chatting with him like it was a camping trip was mind-blowing. And he was such a nice guy, the perfect ambassador of the sport and Honda and all of it. And in '78, when I was happily doing overnight radio at a Top-40 station in Canton, Ohio, I bought two used 125 Elsinores and lived out my motocross dreams, except for the GP part. And I grin as it was all fun, all a win, and I got to experience high-performance road riding in '79 when I worked radio in the San Francisco Bay Area and my Dad gave me free reign on his BMW R100RS, one of the first in the country as he had just brought it over from West Germany. And I did get pulled over once by a Kawasaki-mounted CHIP, but he was cool. He asked me why I was doing 85 and I explained that I was just trying to put a little distance between me and all the cars on my tail on the Bayshore Freeway in San Jose. And it was the truth and I thought he said, "Well, I'm gonna give you a ticket." And I hung my head and stared at the tank. Then he walked down the freeway to his bike--the BMW had better brakes, I guess--and he rode off. And I couldn't believe it, thanks, California Highway Patrolman. And ironically, after that good year on my Dad's BMW, my motorcycle-riding days came to a gentle conclusion and I returned to getting my two-wheeled kicks on all sorts of high-performance bicycles. But I would like to get another motorcycle or two and I see that Honda is bringing back the Dax as a 125, original design with discs and that larger engine. And these days I'm an all-season, year-around bicycle commuter, so I still have my riding chops. All I need is that little Honda to ride like a chopper. 😀
@@robbchastain3036
The stands have been empty for flat track racing since before most of these people who make videos about it and leave comments were even born.
From the beginning of the sport until the late 70's it was the biggest form of motorcycle racing in America, the stands were full and the riders were heroes, then motorcross and a few years later supercross blew up and took over as the big motorcycle racing events, I've been following the sport and going to the races for years, the guy who made this video makes it sound like since Indian has been winning people have quit going, nothing could be further from the truth, people who attend flat track races ultimately don't go because of who's winning, 20 years ago when the Harley fad was at it's height the stands were half full at best, most of the people who jumped on the bandwagon and bought a Harley when it became a fad didn't even know flat track racing exists, it's just been that way for years, in the 80's when Scotty Parker was on the factory Harley team and he won 9 Grand National titles the stands were empty.
@@robbchastain3036 thanks for sharing your story.
And that bike was entirely Italian Aeramachi built.
Agree with you wholeheartedly! Be better! If you don’t like loosing do better. And I’m a Harley rider of 27 years. It’s all I’ve ever ridden and it’s all I ever will but I agree
No, flat track racing came about as an evolution of horse track racing. Board track racing was separate and evolved from bicycle velodrome racing.
This is true, but it really started gaining popularity after board track racing was banned
@@LukeDraleaus
Board track racing was never banned. Flat track racing was always popular going back to the beginning. But it exploded in popularity after 1933 when the AMA Instituted Class C racing, where ordinary riders could compete on their own machines. Some of the films shown here are Class C events.
@@LukeDraleaus
Board track racing wasn't banned everyone just grew enough brains to stop doing it.
About a mile and a half from my house in southwestern Pa about 50 miles south of Pittsburgh was a board track that was the most famous in the world in it's day, the richest most important people in America and royalty from Europe used to come here to watch races at it, the reason it was so popular and prestigious was because one of the owners was the guy who owned Universal Movie Studios, he'd have highlights of races at the track shown in the movie theaters he owned in between the feature films, so everyone in America knew about the place because it had the most exposure in an era before TV's and the internet.
Like most board tracks it was shut down because of a bad accident that killed non racers, those board tracks were dangerous enough for the racers but half the time there was an accident a car would wind up taking out spectators or people on the crews in the pits.
Motorcycle racing on board tracks was particularly dangerous because if you fell of a bike at 110+ MPH and went sliding down the track a splinter could catch you and peel up into a giant spike you'd be impaled on, most people watching a race that saw some guy get a wooden spike up his ass that came out his mouth probably wouldn't bring the family back next week to see the races.
@@dukecraig2402, thanks for this color and insight to a bygone era. I had known about the danger to riders, but not the skinny about Universal Studios and the opportunity it presented for publicity.
@@leehaelters6182
Look up the Wikipedia page on "Uniontown Speedway", it was the board track about a half mile up the road from my house.
It was shut down sometime in the 1920's because of an accident that got down into the pits and killed some mechanics, the county fathers said "Enough of that", look at the championship race results from it, none other than Louis Chevrolet himself won the first championship race there and Duesenberg's ruled most of the time.
After WW2 it was reopened as a dirt track but was shut down again by the 50's or 60's, by the time I was a kid in the 70's it was a golf ball driving range and I used to whack golf balls there all the time growing up absolutely clueless to what had been there before.
Listening to my uncle talk about how they're favoring Yamaha now, I didn't realize they only allowed other bikes to have traction control and abs
I would like to see a street version of the 750. Maybe even a super motard or adventure bike.
Light, fast, dangerous. 80hp for reliability and 150kg max. Not for Sunday riders like literally every other bike already is. Kickstarter and no battery.
@@impalaSS65 Oh ha ha - 150kg, let's just have it cost 50K too. A battery is mandated for street legal. And it needs electric start, who cares about 10 pounds more. I do agree about the 80 RWHP. Should be doable in the 190kg +- range. It won't be cheap even then.
@@randydewees7338 Anyone interested in performance and handling cares about an easy way to shave off a hefty weight with a tall COG, without going into exotic materials.
I have/had three bikes under 130kg and no battery that were street legal. KLX650R, TTR600, 610TE. The 610 was 117kg
Getting a 750 to 150 kg is only because I want it to withstand jumping at 140mph.
@@randydewees7338 a battery not required if it runs lights off a magneto.
@randy dewees
Just get a KTM 690 SMC and do bolt ons. You will be there. I'd like it to have a twin also, but this is what you get. Otherwise go Aprilia RSV if you need the twin. The KTM will be better and more fun.
Harley overpriced themselves right out of business. It's the last wheeze of the most overpriced motorcycle company in the world.
Suzuki is not doing everything wrong in fact they are have very good sales. They are simply the first to realize that winning on sunday and selling on monday doesnt work anymore. As all forms of motor sports are losing popularity and the ROI simply isnt there.
Amazing to see how things have changed since I saw my last flat track race. (It's been a while!) I used to go to virtually every event at Ascot, two half-miles and a TT every season. Then we'd try to make most of the San Jose and Sacramento Miles as well, plus I'd go to Daytona where the Short Track series opened the season, just as the Speedway opened the AMA roadracing series each year. I saw Scotty Parker win his first championship, clinching it at Sacramento, after ten years in the sport, and then he dominated for years after. Saw the Honda team start with the Sidewinder effort before they built their own, original motor to compete with Harley. Strange to think it's all Indian now, a name we never thought we'd see again. Ascot Park has been gone over 30 years, yet I can still see the place in my mind like I was there yesterday.
My uncle flat track raced in the Sacramento area, sometime I would guess in the late 70s through some of the 80's and a couple times in the 90s that I recall. Wonder if y'all ever raced lol
Or rather if you watched him race ever haha
Wow, has Ascot been gone that long? Man I'm getting old.
@@dukecraig2402 Yup, the last half mile race there was in the Fall of 1990. and it was a very sad day. You're not alone in feeling old, lol.
Yeah, changing the rules so slow bikes can win.... That won't work this time. When flat track was way more popular, and the rules were being changed to protect Harley against foreign competition, that pretty much worked. Changing the rules to cripple an American brand, that won't work. The old school fans won't like the action against an American company. Newer fans don't want a sport tailored for slow bikes. This will kill flat track.
Have you met Harley fanboys? They'll tell you Indian isn't a real American brand.
@@aka_pierre No, I really don't know any. Somehow not surprised to hear that, though.
Well, HD has been ruining the motorcycle scene in the USA since the 1970s. What's new?
@@khaccanhle1930
They have?
Here's a news flash for you junior, Harley was the ONLY motorcycle manufacturer in the USA in the 70's, and apparently you and the guy who made this video don't realize that if it wasn't for Harley Davidson the new incarnation of Indian wouldn't exist, that's right, Indian didn't wasn't reborn making 4 cylinder inline racing bikes were they? No, they were reborn making bikes for the nostalgia cruiser market, the very thing that Harley invented and made into something so big that even the Japanese motorcycle companies designed bikes specifically to enter the market with, and the bikes they designed for that weren't imitations of old British or German or Italian bikes were they? No, they were imitations of Harley's and the nostalgia market they created and if it wasn't for that there wouldn't be a new Indian company in the first place.
The maker of this video can praise Indian and rag on Harley all he wants but the fact is Indian created a race bike to compete in a type of racing that there was only one company that ran in it, it's not like they designed a Moto GP bike and had to compete against 5 or 6 other companies with cutting edge technology that have the financial backing of an automotive division that sells millions of cars a year, Honda, or the financial backing of a billion dollar heavy industries corporation, Kawasaki, or any of the other Moto GP racers who are either a division of a huge corporation or are owned by a huge automotive conglomerate, yea, look into who owns those Italian motorcycle companies, BMW or Fiat or whoever it is that's the latest owner of them and dumps truck loads of money and tech into them, Harley isn't owned by GM or Ford, they pretty much go about it themselves and when they do have engineering done by an outside source they have to pay through the nose for it, even Plymouth had the luxury of having an engineer from Chrysler's missile division have to report to them to work out the aerodynamics for the Superbird, Indian didn't go racing in a world that's run by multi billion dollar corporations and started winning every race they entered, they went racing in a world that the big competition has a yearly profit that's less than the money any of those companies that race moto GP spend in advertising.
Something else he fails to realize that he even mentions in the video is the fact that Indian had a huge European automobile conglomerate design that engine, it's not like the guy's at Indian's headquarters sat down and did it, they contracted it out.
So basically Indian went racing in a sport that the only real competition is a company that sells a fraction of the vehicles and has a fraction of the money that those high tech Moto GP racers make.
So what, they beat Harley Davidson, if they were out there beating Honda and Ducati and all those other companies that have multi billion dollar backing at their racing game that might be something to brag about.
And the half empty stands at flat track events that he mentions in this video have been half empty since the late 70's/early 80's, that seismic shift happened back then because motorcycle racing interests in America went to motorcross then even more a few years later to supercross racing, that's what took over as the big spectator sport in America when it comes to motorcycle racing, when Marty Moates beat the best European motorcross racers in the 1980 USGP at Carlsbad California he became a national hero and the idol of every motorcycle loving teenage boy in America, and made every one of them that dreamed about motorcycle racing think that motorcross was a form of motorcycle racing they could possibly get into, that's what drained the stands at the flat track event's, teenage boys motorcycle heroes went from flat track racers like Mert Lawill and Jay Springsteen to motorcross racers like Bob "The Hurricane" Hannah and Marty Moates, when Scotty Parker won 9 Grand National flat track championship's throughout the 80's and early 90's the stands were empty, and he got all of them on a Harley, so no one can blame Harley losing to Indian as why the stands are half empty, they've been that way for 40 years because starting in the early 80's in a few short years flat track racing became a forgotten sport, even though Harley won the title almost every year during that decade.
@@dukecraig2402 Great post duke my friend. The truth is not welcome by Harley Davidson bashers and haters here.
You know the "clothing and T-shirt company" making motorcycles on the side since 1903 with all Chinese parts. GMAFB!
Like "Victory", how long before "Indian" becomes just another brand flopping and failing to compete in Harley Davidson's marker segment?
How many Yamaha Star cruisers have lasted on showroom floors for more than 5-years before disappearing from the catalog?
Or Suzuki and Kawasaki rip-off cruiser HD clones with their dohc wonder engines that nobody can work on without a computer.
How many proud Americans like this rider made good money on their Harley Davidson stocks for many years, and provided jobs for Americans
Casting our pearls before swine I know. Take care duke.
Here living in my part of Florida we have former Grand National AMA racer # 23 Kevin Atherton. He literally has one of his old XR750 race bikes set up and legally registered for the street. He carries a small backpack around with a starter and a battery in it to start it everywhere it goes when he stops. It is one badass motorcycle!
In my day (1970 - 76) at the local Northern Calif. short flat tracks it was the Bultaco Pursang that dominated.
GREAT VIDEO! I especially liked the dig at Harley at the end. Harley lost to Indian at the bagger road racing series!! Harley rolled over and has played dead for sure in Flattrack. Harley will not spend the money on racing. There's no profit in racing only expense. 90 percent of Harley customers do not give a rats ass about racing, AT ALL.
Harley's also going broke. They don't even have the money to spend if they wanted to
@@andrewlindley4865 they absolutely do considering the rumored budget for their King Of The Baggers program last year was 6 million.
" Harley lost to Indian at the bagger road racing series!! "
----- because Travis fell down in the rain and Kyle wasn't allowed to restart at Brainerd
@@tokyosmash That 6 million would've been better spent developing bikes that aren't ugly and slow piles of shit.
@@ericalger5003 I don’t disagree with you at all, however, it is what it is.
Really ... In 1968 I rode against my buddy Bart Markel who was a factory rider for Harley. He was sponsored in the 250 cc Class with a Sprint on the 1/4 mile in Flint, Michigan and an XLCH (I think a 650 cc) on the mile at many places, notably DRC (Detroit Race Course). He could hit 125 mph on the straight while peeking under the handle bar and holding the shock tower in his left hand. He held more Grand National Championships that any other rider of the day. "Me" ??? I could consistently finish second in any race where there were two bikes running. Also ... I don't remember any Indians.
Richard, were you part of the pack chasing Bart, Mert, Dick, Gene, etc on the flattracks in that Bruce Brown movie we all saw in '72?
That was a golden era!
I just want to make a couple of corrections. But in 1968 Bart raced a KR750 and his Sprint was a CRS 250. My uncle is Sam Arena (RIP) and he owned Sam Arena's Harley Davidson in San Jose, CA. My father was the service manager and was the tech that measured the bore and stroke of the winning HDs if they placed in the top three, back then the top three finishers were measure at the track, and I worked there from 1973 to 75 or so. When the Harley Race team came to town for the San Jose 1/2 or 1 miles nationals they all stopped by at my uncle's shop. I got to meet Mart Lawwill and Mark Brelsford.
I raced from 1970 to 76 and I raced Harleys until Mert Lawwill answered my question of how to make my ERS 350 more competitive. He simply said get a Yamaha. ;-) In my opinion these years through the mid 80's were the best years of flattrack racing.
@@bryanwhitton1784 It was an experience. As I said, I raced against Bart in 1968, along with another local celebrity who used the track name "Charlie Chapel" (actually William Chapel) whom I attended high school with. Charlie rode a Yamaha and he was the only real competition for Bart. I need to point out that we called him "Black Bart" because even though he was diminutive (140 lbs at his heaviest), he had the competitive streak of a giant. That nature would present itself in feature events where one of his favorite tricks was to come inside you in turn 3 and bump your rear tire. Most of the time not enough to spill you, just increase your pucker-factor while he would slide by. Another thing he would do for the fans was come out of turn 4 aiming almost straight at the wall. The front tire would hit and climb the wall about 2 feet, making it look like a crash at first. He was a very talented man. I watched him several times at a practice track in Grand Blanc, MI replete with moguls. He was the only rider I ever saw do steep wheelies "down" a hill.
@@richardgreen7811 That's funny. The bumping trick is something I have used myself. It get slower people out of the way nicely. 😉 I remember one story about him and his KR from his early days. They were traveling between races and they wanted to test his bike, not sure what that meant, so they unloaded it in the middle of nowhere and pulled out Freddie Nix's bike and raced them down the freeway to compare. They were shocked at how much slower his bike was yet he was winning consistently on it. Says a lot about his corner speed.
Those days were great fun. I remember when it was time to renew my pro license the last time. I was sitting in the living room and looked at my financials and my new baby daughter and wife and had to decide what was more important. My daughter and wife won. I couldn't afford racing and being a husband and father. I just sat there on the floor and cried. I packed everything into a box and sold my racing equipment to my brother and walked away. I knew I wasn't going to worry KR that I was on the track and I couldn't justify the cost. But man was it fun. To my wife's credit, she never once asked me to quit. She supported me completely which actually made the decision easier. Man those days were fun!
I owned a 1974 XLCH and it was 1000cc. In 1968 the CH was 900cc.
Having Jared Mees who is one of the greatest dirt trackers of all time certainly hasn’t hurt for Indian.
Also worth noting, the FTR750 isn’t a production bike nor does it have a production engine. The XR750 was a production based engine, as is the XG750R. They aren’t in Production Twins because they aren’t eligible, and production twins is being dominated by… a Harley and is a better comparison of what companies can bring to the table, be it Harley, Yamaha, Royal Enfield, Kawasaki or KTM.
The production twins bikes are getting really close to where Supertwins are at performance wise.
they basically made the production class to give everyone especially HD a chance. So ya now they dont compete in the same class because they cant
@@Hustler9g you really should reference championship points before making such a claim
@@tokyosmash you mean the super twins points where Indian still won the Championship 1,2 ahead of the Yamaha even after they've neutered the shit out of the ftr? Ya man production twins was made to give everyone else a place to win.
I got to say it; the NHRA has also created classes just for Harley. They couldn’t compete with the other brands, so they handicapped them, so Harley can use bigger displacement while slowing the others etc.
Just like ducati wsb, short sighted gains
The AMA catered to Hardly Dependable kissed their ass and passed weight rules and carburetor restrictions against Honda in particular and they still beat HD. American flat track saved the series . If they could only get Dave Dispain back
Dave Dispain is retired and Scotty Duebler does a great job..
Yep..when Honda left because of carb restrictions...1993 Ricky Graham came back on a 5yo Honda , Indepened run team and won the championship.
A mention of Kenny Roberts and Yamaha making a go with the TZ750 2 stroke should have been included as the first serious Japanese manufacture to contest Harley's 45deg twin. It was a super historical watershed moment for flattracking. That was the moment 2 strokes became unsuited for flattrack. Great vid though. Ty.
How can the AMA not come out and tell everyone why Indian have not adhered to the rules and brought a road engine out, how can road based engines yamaha ktm kawasaki and the rest compete against a full on race engine?
Hardly Abelson has always been reticent to break away from obsolete technology. It's distressing that they've focused on implementing regulations to hamstring the Indians rather than directing their efforts toward becoming compettitive again.
Indians were from the beginning much better motorcycles than HD. The only reason Harley survived the great dispersion (and not only), was because it had the right connections to get contracts from the army and the police.
Not true. Harley gained over Indian because they were more robust and heavy duty on the road when Indian was still building glorified motor bicycles. Indian did win a lot of early races though.
Great dispersion? Who got spread around?
@@alexnutcasio936
The OP is spreading bullshit, lol.
If you're smart, Indians have always been better bikes. Harley is powered by nostalgia and machismo. Not performance, race numbers, weight or tech. And if you go to bring up police and army you might as well bring up Reagan. That company would have died long ago if you didn't lock out the Japanese. Good work by the way Japanese bikes have been failing ever since. On my side HD stands for "hopefully dead?". That goes for your crashes too, start waving to people
Indian sold army and police bikes
In England the Indian motorcycle not only for Flat track racing but Brooklyn’s Isle of Man TT and various other competitions would’ve won the most serious competitors that we’ve ever had just very very beautifully prepared and maintained engines Harley-Davidson always seemed yes the XR 750 was a nice bike but if you look back in the early days the Indians always wear a better motorcycle looking another world of motorcycles from England enjoy your program Michael
Very cool, British speedways first race was in 1928, very similar, but on a smaller oval. Great looking bikes, especially the Indian (No 51)
They're still Speedway racing over there, but the real lunatics race at the Isle of Mann, that race is just insane.
On a typical Friday night at Ascot back in the day, there'd be Harleys, Triumphs, BSAs, Nortons, Yamahas, and even, from time to time a Suzuki 500 and a Benelli 650! Those were the days.....
Leveling the playing field is another way to keep things the same
Harley did get out of the way & so did the fans in the stands 😢
Polaris may have been willing to outspend everyone but, at what cost ?
Id love to see Indian get into a Superbike. A 1000cc V-Twin for street and AMA and a V4 Superbike for street and World Superbike. Why give all the glory to Ducati? Do it right and they would all sell.
I had the privilege to ride an Indian Scout and it was fast. I've also seen Triumph win in the vintage class at two major swap meets. I bought my '50 Triumph Thunderbird project from a guy that put brakes on his Harley XR750 and told me he rode it full throttle and would get pulled over the majority of the time. I agree, Harley needs to up their game.
Indian needs to make a true street production version of the race bike. The FTR1200 isn't a real street tracker.
Nailed it! All the Harley fans act like HD is a victim because they were supposedly told that flat track was going to production based engines. Step up to the plate! You’re the biggest motorcycle manufacturer on the planet!
I’m afraid Harley might be dead by 2030, their customer base is shrinking and their technology is stagnant. They are locked into a situation where the big V twin is their best and worst asset at the same time
I don't think it's ever going to die, it may have a small but definitely dedicated customer base. As for new customers though? New models are unreliable and way too expensive.
As a kid, I loved watching my Uncle Lou's Triumphs run off and leave the Harley's. What a great time in Dirt Track.
A great documentary, well done!!
10:00 "Something Harley did once, 50 years ago, but they haven't done it since" I feel like this statement can be used for ANY thing Harley has done or not done post AMF years. When the company was brought (bought) back to its "roots" as the fans might say. And at 11:12 isn't that what they did to other manufacturers when Harley was falling behind them? Seems like this is a pattern with sanctioning bodies (or heck the US government) and The Motor Company.
The Yamaha MT07 would be the best tracker platform.
Harley has been dropping the ball for a while. The HD Street is VERY tame.
A lot of people don't know that the Sturgis motorcycle rally was actually started by an Indian dealer who started a club and a flat track race there to improve sales. The rest as they say is history.
I loved the Victory Octane when it came out pushing advancement in racing. It was crushing to see Victory pull the plug so that Indians could have all the attention. But I knew that eventually that learned advancement would come out in some Indian package. So I really welcome the Indian FTR.
The Octane is the Indian Scout
Thats the bike the Indian was born from.
Flat track drivers are incredibly badass. The descendants of the most ballsy riders of all time
Indian has Kenny Tolbert to thank.
Look him up. He’s one of The Best!
you do know about the unfair rule that v4 bikes get in gp moto right?
What would that be?
What's "power displacement?" I've been building engines for 56 years and never heard that term before....
Excellent video, as always.
H-D deserves condemnation, not that they'd care about any criticism. They only compete when no one shows up. They are great at emptying the pockets of dentists wishing to cosplay in leather, and yeah those bikes are great in that niche. As for AFT, I have little interest in watching a "sport" filled with artificial competition only designed to cater to morons who think a variety of nameplates must mean they're competitive.
Aaarrrgh, it's the leather clad Haaarrrley pirates! Shiver me timbers, or would it be, "YMCA"!
The company is just as fake as its biggest fans.
That dentist comment ............ GOLD
You sir are the problem!
Excellent video? That guy is highly biased. Time and time again.
You should go out there and race then, if the sports that non competitive you shouldn't have any problems winning ace.
I think it was JFK that once said "We choose to [do these things] not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." It seems like Harley is fine with just rolling over and accepting the easy money, rather than investing in the future of motorcycle riders.
AFT... it’s pretty sad when you have to have bikes from the support and junior class line up at the back of the grid to make a full field in the main event class. AMA slowly put a strangle hold in favor HD and now AFT & The France group is trying to turn it into stockcar racing which is just spec racing, cookie cutter classes.
Don't litigate, innovate!!!
I'm thinking there will be a new dirt tracker out of the new sportster s and nightster engine platforms. I like to see them all out there competing
But the AMA allowed Indian into racing in 2017 with the promise that Indian brought out a road engine( FTR 750) is a purpose built race engine, within 3 years.
Yeah, innovation has to be just enough to not be restricted/regulated to be "fair".
Most every iconic race car was regulated out of the sport. Even modern F1 has a few new break throughs, that get regulated for next season.
The Yamaha TX350 was the epic 2 stroke of the 70s, guess what killed it?
ello Bart, wht is your opinion on the 22 Indian FTR R Carbon?
Adding new rules to restrict strategies and specific companies just undermines the sport.
We have a saying in gaming when people are getting beat, GET GOOD. This is why I won't watch these sports.
Beat them so good, they pulled out of the sport themselves. Hard being an AFT fan sometimes.
Yamaha is the only competition . When Kawasaki won the AMA made it slower to let Harley to compete. So Kawasaki isn’t that interested same as Honda . I believe that Indian is American so they don’t slow it down . 5 years ago over 1/2 where Kawasaki. Now it’s Indian that is over 1/2 .
Can you do a documentry style video on Indian like you did on RE interceptor.
Step # 1 get Red Bull involved.
Step# 2 let the market and the races figure out the winners and losers
The best riders all came from flat track. Kenny Roberts and Jay Springsteen were untouchable and better than anyone now. The riders aren’t better now, only the bikes are faster.
Shallow comment for a shallow pool, sorry to disagree
I didn’t know fluump had a motorcycle channel
Yes Australia introduced dirt track racing into England back in the 20's. One Guy even took a heavily modified 125 BSA Bantam to England and competed against 500 cc bikes.
As a teenager I loved watching Phil Crump in Mildura on those wicked methanol burning no brakes Speedway bikes. I wonder how'd the Indian FTR's would fair against FIM Speedway bikes?
@@DukeOfTwist As a kid in the 40's and 50's ,. a friend of mines father was a former speedway competitor with a mate hanging out of the outfit on tracks like Tracys speedway and the Showgrounds in Melbourne, he had retired but still had an interest in all forms of motor bike racing, we, as kids got to be taken to a few events and saw some pretty spectacular stuff, also taken to hill climbs and watched competitors doing crazy things like racing up steep slopes and sometimes falling over backwards. Safety seemed to be pretty haphazard in those days, His father at one stage had a Vincent HRD Black Shadow, I bet they wish the family still had it today.
@@adoreslaurel A Vincent wow, I just have 3x Aprilia Tuono's
@@DukeOfTwist Well he had some financial restraints at the time so the bike had to go early unfortunately.
@@adoreslaurel Yeah, I owned an immaculate 1967 XR GT Falcon 30 years ago. But you can only sell it once lol
flat/grass track and speedway were big in britain and europe up to the 80s , speedway was televised till the late 80s that i remember possibly later
I watched Road-Racing & Flat-track since I was in my teens, and guys like Calvin Rayborn II was my favorite riding a Harley-Davidson 750cc. His ability to outride others on the infields was amazing, but he was always out done on the banked ovals on track like Daytona where Yamaha's & Suzuki's flew by him. It was the lack of power that made him move and accept an offer to ride for the Suzuki Team. He went from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke engine and seizures happen quit frequently, especially when you are full throttle, and that is what killed him. He was, I believe, the best rider HD ever had. RIP Cal!
Every time i see Indians flat track bikes I just get sad, such a wasted chance to make and awesome production streetbike in a style with basically no competition. No, the FTR1200 does not count, its a flat track in name only, its really a streetfighter more than anything else. The level of dissapointment the community had when they revealed the production model was... A lot, from what I can find Indian spent a few years paying people to remove the scathing complaints from the internet due to that release. Its very hard to find all the articles from the time. I can understand from a business perspective that they did not predict the backlash in the slightest, and with all the tooling and manufaturing costs already sunk it wasn't like they could just redo it. Rant over, I really want a real flat track production bike to own and ride.
Edit: On that note, I would love to see you do a video on that entire project and release. There was a LOT of buzz and excitement about the FTR production model and while not catastrophic, the actual release did not go as well as i think Indian thought it would.
You call it flat track we call it speedway motorbikes in the UK. Short track racing in America and small dirt track racing in australia who invented it and was won by an American in the first seasons.
You need to check the european flat trak, the bikes are amazing !!!
100% they're on methanol, no brakes & probably weight a third of an FTR
The KR750 was outdated by the late 50’s but HD finagled AMA to restrict displacement of any OHV until 1970.
No substitute for cubic dollars. The HD XR has not had factory support since the 80's. Should not have been THAT hard to beat them. Not to disrespect Yamaha but 2-stroke engines are not that suitable for flat track. A narrow power band with a sudden build up is not optimal.
13:00 HOLD UP when was this?!
Hold your horsepower’s there for a min.
The comparison you made with Ducati and Indian is wayyy off base. In fact Moto GP made the same “rule changes” for the Ducati when they were getting destroyed by every other brand barely making the top 10 around 2010.
My thoughts exactly, perhaps Bart is a fairly new Moto GP fan? Only started tuning in a few years ago when Ducati started dominating? I could be wrong but he seems to be ill informed about much of Moto GP history, which is fine we all had to start somewhere i suppose. His comments regarding Suzuki were also rather head turning i thought lol.
would you do a kind of the baggers videos and show people what’s different between a street indian/harley and a race bike. Thanks 🙏
Win on Sunday sell on Monday ... Indian should build a 750cc Sportster like Harley did.
The competition on the race track should lead to a street worthy bike that resembles their sport bike.
And a light 750/1000 with 50/80 hp would be enough to be street worthy
Your videos are cool. Very easy to listen to and entertaining. Good job.
Im probably going to buy a motorcycle later today, this is a great way to start the day.
Which bike you going to buy?
@@trippontwowheels wow dude im one of your subs!, I’m buying an old AJP motorcycle, not sure what model it is tho.
Let's be real honest Harley-Davidson made it way too easy for Indian to get in and take over the market Harley-Davidson is always been there and that's their model they're just there they never tried to improve on anything performance wise the only way they know how to add more power is by adding cubic inches and let's be real the kids of today want things that perform that are actually fast and light and quick and that's everything I Harley-Davidson isn't
Seriously everybody beat Harley at v twins ages ago.
Ducati built a cruiser half the weight, twice the power and brakes.
The reason why no other manufacturers are putting the money into flat track racing is it's not cost effective. All the manufacturers were told they were going to production based bikes but changed their mind.
Premiere class is the singles RN, twins are a mess. There is so much talent coming in I hope AFT can figure it out.
Harley Davidson was so dominate by the simple fact it was always being given benefits, 1st against the Brits, then the Japanese cycles. To dominate as long as they did speaks volumes to the politics of HD & the AMA.
Now Indians back in the game HD is attempting to catch up.
The innovations of Indian have put a wrench in HD's dominance. Love it.
BTW besides my 750 Bonneville, Street bikes were always HD's.
Seems as if HD got arrogant and that's why they're playing catch up now.
A friend had a XR750 that'd run mid to high 7 sec. 1/4 mile. If he weighed 160lbs I'd be shocked but it was wild that'd run that fast without launch control and all the crap the put on these new mc's
What special benefits did HD get against Brit bikes? Didn't they all follow the same AMA Rules and Regulations handbook?
@@browngreen933 AMA restricted brits to 500cc
@@leeonardodienfield402
That's a myth. The 500cc/OHV & 750cc/SV limits were instituted long before English bikes were a factor in American racing.
@@browngreen933 Wrong.
@@leeonardodienfield402
Okay, keep believing a lie. The rule was about engine efficiency, not about the country a bike came from.
yeah.... the motto they all must NOT forget should be.... "Get Along or Get Lost" ....
'Flat track' racing is practised all over the world but it is called 'Speedway' or 'Grass track' or even 'Ice track racing', depending on the surface that's raced on.
Speedway is a whole different animal
I believe the current rules are a purpose built engine-750cc while a regular production engine 900cc plus .040 over bore,what makes indian so good is it has a very heavy crankshaft,it's been said by engineers you'd never design one that heavy for regular street use
What does increasing the weight of the crank do for performance on the flat track, or any track?
Well let's be honest, flag track racing has such a small audience nowadays I could see why Harly really doesn't care to respond. It was an easy target for Indian to come back and build their name with. I doubt you're gonna see any manufacturer putting big money into FTR again. The ROI isn't really there unless you're trying to build a brand.
Kenny Roberts Yamaha TZ750 two stroke. One bad ass ride brotha.👍
"They don't pay me enough money to ride that thing"
4 cylinder* but ya one of the most insane ft bikes
Have my XR1000 highly modified with Storz and Jerry Branch parts so it actually looks and goes like an XR750. And now (2019) an FTR1200. Guess I'm a flat track fan.
Nice, 83 or 84?
@@dukecraig2402 84, but I think they were all manufactured in 83 with just paint changes. Less than 1800 total. Correct me if I'm wrong.
@@tonyciriello6872
I don't know about that, if they were all assembled in 83 I'd think they'd all be titled as 83's, like all the Corvettes that were sold in 83 were titled as 82's because that's when they were built because the Corvette plant shut down in 83 to retool for the new 84's, they simply built enough in 82 to sell all the way through the end of the 83 model year but they were all titled as 82's, once a VIN is stamped on a vehicle that's it's date and year of manufacture, that's why you can tell all the way down to the day and date when a vehicle was manufactured by the VIN, by law they couldn't have assembled a vehicle in 1983 and then waited to title it in 1984, the VIN number year and date codes for it's assembly wouldn't jive with the title year.
I do know that the XR1000's weren't built on the regular assembly line, the were assembled by the racing department under the supervision of it's head Dick O'Brian and that all the heads were sent to Branch Flowmetrics to be worked over by them.
@@dukecraig2402 Yes. I have a poster of Dick O'Brian on the wall of my cave right in front of me as I type. I sent the heads to Branch to do even more work as part of a performance hop up I read about in Cycle World. Work of art. Also have his flatslide carbs with matching manifolds that matched the intake ports. Just beautiful. From Storz have upsidedown forks, tank and seat combo, works performance shocks, custom lower braced aluminum swingarm built by Cal-fab. I think you would like this bike.
@@tonyciriello6872
Yea, it's safe to say I'd like it.
I have an 03 R model, the one's that are painted like the factory flat track racing bikes.
I converted it to 1200, I was going to put inverted forks and every other bell and whistle on it but decided instead to make it a sleeper, I put a huge set of Red Shift cams in it but figured out how to keep the stock non collapsible push rod tubes with adjustable push rods and travel limiters in the lifters so anyone who looked at it would think it has bolt in cams at best, 44mm Screamin Eagle CV carb that looks like stock, did the ports myself modeled after the one's I've sent to Branch from my shop, figured out how to balance the pressed together flywheels myself and set the balance factor at 52% for high revs, Race Tech emulator valves in the front forks and slid the triple trees as far down the forks as possible without the front fender smashing into the voltage regulator if the forks bottom out, that makes it turn faster, with the rear shocks there really wasn't much I could do that would keep a stock appearance but most everyone has aftermarket shocks on the back anyways and a Kerker 2 into 1 upswept exhaust just as a nod to the 80's.
It exceeds 65 MPH in first gear which a lot of guys say is impossible and will even do the math thinking that they're proving it, then I tell them to reconfigure the math for an Andrews close ratio first gear and they'll see that at 7,500 RPM's my speedometer is just sweeping past 65 MPH, I didn't put that first gear in it just to exceed 65 MPH in first gear that's just a byproduct, I did it so when I shift into first on the winding mountain roads where I live the revs don't go through the roof and cause the rear tire to break traction, when coming out of a hairpin turn the revs are right up in the power and it slingshots right out.
I've got a bunch of other little tricks in it that are hidden like an aluminum front pulley that doesn't suck up nearly as much power as the heavy stock cast iron pulley and a windage tray and flywheel scraper I put in the bottom end.
It's deceiving to look at, guy's who think they know what they're looking at figure it's got bolt in cams and stock forks on the front, a set of Avon Cobra Chrome tires makes it go around corners like it's on rails, guy's who figure they know what it is get a real big surprise when I get them out on the road.
Harley knows one thing only Harley Riders know . Harleys are the only motorcycle , everything else is two wheels with a motor. That comes from being an Icon . And knowing when everyone says motorcycle the first thing that comes to mind is the name and form of harley.
I believe you meant to say heat dissipation. The heat of displacement is the heat change when one mole of metal is displaced from its salt solution by a more reactive metal.
I wish they would sell a 750 tuned down for those of us who enjoy smaller bikes and seeing how fast they can go
I'm really learning a lot today. I never knew there was an AMA grand title.
I agree Strongly, Indians Flat Track Bike Innovation and Technology Should Not be dumbed down At All.
It's up to each manufacturer to keep up with advancing technology's, research and development. Harley Get with the Times Up your bike game.
AFT is fantastic and all this talk of the 750's in the Premier Class, which is superb....BUT.....the "competitive" class is the AFT Singles class. Give THOSE guys (AND my girl Shayna!!) a gander!!
Indian is super cool and awesome.
Great video Bart! While I'm commenting here: Spite from YN now has his own channel! Search for "Spite's corner"! Sadly he was sacked by YN. Go support him!
I love the concept like you say of invading sport and pushing the limits but let's be honest flat track bikes are like speedway bikes they're kept very simple for a very simple reason light is fast you start adding more weight and making things heavier it's harder to control now that Harley-Davidson isn't relevant in flat track anymore it just seems like they're sticking spoke should I say to try and level the playing field instead of adding more technology keep them simple keep them light powerful and fast and that's exactly what Indian did now it's just time for everybody else to follow suit
They'll be back and seriously competitive in a couple of years, don't think for a second that somewhere in a back room in the old racing department they aren't already working on a flat track version of that new Sportster S engine.
I have the hots for that Bronx model they were supposed to release and then pulled from their line up, I really hope they bring it back, I'll sell a bike or two to get one of them.