Strongly agree. I am a Hobby Shop and I make a living selling and building a community and the biggest thing I've learned operating for 3 years is this. -New people curious about miniature war-gaming feel embarrassed to try since it is little toys, games like WW2 and Star Wars are good introductions since they are familiar and overall the star wars legion game and Bolt Action are extremely friendly for entry game systems. -Game's Workshop rules changes, updates, and out dating rule books has made more people quit the hobby, stop buying, stop participating, and give up than any other aspect of this industry. The way they focus on tournaments and the meta does push people away and it has hurt my business because of it. The biggest issue I have is products will essentially expire like an army rulebook sometimes within the same week it is released due to rule patches and updates and those hundreds of dollars in inventory and shelving of just 5 of those books becomes lost income and directly hurts my ability to order more inventory. -Agnostic game systems have given a lot of options for 3rd party miniature lines to be shelved, encouraging kitbashing and creativity which the artistic side of the hobby draws more consumable sales like paints, material, and conversation as we all brainstorm new ways to approach projects. Agnostic is more consumer friendly and you the consumer will benefit from more products and value from your money being involved with it. The only ones who don't are these global corporations that wouldn't know if one day you passed away, but your local community does, they know who you are, they know what you liked, and what your hobbies were. They value your time, money, and presence. Value your community, they are who cares about you, nameless giant corporations are not your friend.
@@ThortheGodly I really appreciate reaching out. I've done a lot of experiments with game design and modding other tabletop games for play by users and I feel there are a couple details that seem to make a pattern in it all. So let's start with less opinion based game mechanic choices first. Accessibility. This hobby is expensive and no matter with 3D printing or alternative options the building, painting, and passion behind peoples collection takes time and if they are passionate enough it'll cost money no matter what. So obviously making the game more universal is essential for new people trying it or playing it. First is scale and size of models. Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion, 40k (Normal humans) these I would argue are some of the biggest games and what do they have in common? Scale. You can take a soviet, a guardsmen lasgun, and stick it on a star wars legion base and it's playable piece in all 3 games. Kitbashing, and mixing models together is one of the core aspects of army creation and if the models are standardized to 28mm more model kits and players as a whole will have access to playing said game. Players allowed to be creative like a modding community did for Skyrim the video game will naturally create more longevity by allowing a community to cultivate their own content using your engine and platform. You won't make as much direct sales, but a creative passionate customer will make more long term sales than a short term tournament focused individual which may play for only maybe 2 years, lose enough battles to 'retire' and maybe pick up the game next edition 2 years later. Second I'd argue is rules. You're game can have layers don't be afraid to add graphs and charts for mechanics, but keep in mind all elements of the game should use at best basic math and should be easy to memorize or access quickly. If it's a little more difficult a key front and back page is essentially as complicated it should get. If players need to stop an already 3 hour game to sit down and read through a 400 page book to refer to a rule and then 20 minutes later do it again you're game is going to burn people out and push more outsiders away than invite in. A good warhammer rule with basic math is their Toughness to Strength. Every unit has a toughness, and every weapon has a Strength. If those numbers are tied than 50%, a 4+ on a D6 to succeed. If you are stronger than they are tough than a 3+, otherwise 5+ vise versa. You hear the number 14 strength, and 9 Toughness and you immediately know the answer to your roll. That allows a massive expansion of stat lines for units while keeping a easy engine for players to operate. A bad design for player accessibility is say the rest of the shooting process. Roll to Hit accounting for terrain conditions, Roll armor penetration for armor conditions, Roll Save now just in case target that was hit and penetrate just feels lucky and doesn't want to take that damage right now, and in some cases roll a feel no pain or what ever just in case they were really sure they didn't want to take that damage. You could roll 10 dice, get 5 Success, then 2 penetrations, then 1 failed save, but be ignored with that last feel no pain which ends with 5 minutes of dice rolling just to say you did nothing have a nice day. That is bad game design, tons of steps that have to be refer to, easily mixed up what order to do it in, and to the players perspective doesn't make sense why if a shot hits and a shot clears the armor wouldn't damage? It just feels like almost padding like a grinding in an MMO to make the game simulate gameplay without giving players much involvement or part in it outside of helping the engine process the attack effect. This is a lot already and I would almost say I probably could just make a video elaborating deeper on the subject at this point so maybe message me directly if you would like to talk more.
@@brighamgorzealionmaybe you should do a video then xD streamlining thought is really important, just being able to do quick mental math on what an ability is gonna do is really important even in video games where the computer can do the math for you. otherwise people stop taking informed decisions and just start wildly guessing.
@@oscaranderson5719 yes exactly, layers aren't the issue, but when it's the players job to resolve those layers using multiple steps just to turn the engine and process said data you're killing your game and in my case my girlfriends desire to try it.
There are three player factions in our One Page Rules community - One group, slightly larger than the others, uses the OPR settings. It's enough to build the battles around, and is 'good enough'. The second largest group plays using GW's settings, mostly 40K. The third group is creating their own settings, or at least sub-setting. My Notcromunda campaign falls into this group. Instead of one mega hive, there are six (formerly seven) smaller hive cities interconnected by roads, tunnels, and even canals both on the surface and underground. Our groups split from GW about midway through 9th edition 40K. It was definitely the rules, not the settings, that alienated the players.
I love the simple yet extremely flavorfulness of the great ruleset that is turnip28, played 40k for way too long left at the turn of 10th ed and will never go back. Love the 40k old lore and 5th/6th ed rules. But rules so simple it's grey like how the models start are the post 2018 games workshop way, way too smooth.
@@YeAuldGrump I had the exact same experience with OPR - I was trying to get back into 40k when 10e came out, as I have around 5000 points worth of Necrons that are collecting dust and I was getting the wargaming itch again. I was met with a collective "meh" from the group, even when I offered to 3D print proxies for everyone. When I suggested ORP as an alternative, people I didn't even know were interested in wargaming wanted to join the group!
I like to use OPR to play the 40k universe right before the great crusade. It makes sense why there are so many different alien species, it's because the emperor hasn't done genocide on most of them yet
I stopped suffering the rules as 40k 9th came out. I realised I'd bought more books than I'd played games in 8th, so it wasn't a worthwhile spend to get the next edition.
@@Mikey__R Totally agree. I am an Astra Militarum player. I was getting bored with only competitive gaming and when almost same day that AM Codex came out the announced new edition I said "I stop here"
100% on every single point. More people need to watch this and really really listen. Also add the not so helpful line. "The multi-million dollar company doesn't need you to defend it's rules. They don't care about you."
I've been developing my own tabletop wargame as a modification for 10th edition, and I gotta say that getting people to play something even *SLIGHTLY* different, even just as a playtest, it's absolutely wild. It's like pulling teeth, even if they hate the current rules!
@@thomgizziz that’s not a very kind or reassuring thing to say. He has friends and he wants to try something new. I’d wager given how emotionally charged your response to this was, that your not exactly drowning in friends
@@thomgizzizwhat crawled up your butt and died? If you are hanging with friends it's not a waste of time, and if you start testing with a smaller scale it's and hour or two. Really no big deal. If you never try anything you won't ever find anything better, no guarantees in life.
Maybe I'm revealing my age here, but I started wargaming way back when there was no such thing as "dedicated miniatures". There were miniatures - and for most of us this was primarily Airfix plastic miniatures and UNPAINTED - and then there were rulebooks. The first rulebook I ever used was by Donald Featherstone "Wargaming Airborne Operations" and they were about as basic and "agnostic" as you could get. Your thoughts on this, and the trend towards these agnostic rules sets speak to me in a very nostalgic way, and I applaud them. All the best!
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017. I'd been playing since the Rogue Trader era in the late 1980s; I wasn't willing to just give up my 5 completely painted armies, so I found ways to use them in other games. Grimdark Future, Stargrave, Rogue Stars, Xenos Rampant, and Space Weirdos all have helped breathe new life into my ridiculously large sci-fi miniatures collections.
At the start of the video, when you said "crunchy", like a simulation, slowing down play, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech", and when you said "streamlined", abstracted and without flavour, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech Alpha Strike". Battletech truly bookends the rules density scale.
Certainly crunchy at the base but you can at least just add what you want. We have been enjoying the Forced Withdrawal rule for cutting down the amount of time playing. Of course, your mileage might vary.
And if those two modes are too extreme for you, there is the DeatFromAboveWargaming mod called „Battletech: Override“ that is the absolute sweet spot for people who don‘t have that much time because of kids but don‘t want to play a game that is as far away from classic as Alpha Strike.
I think it’s in the 2nd edition 40K rule book that it states that “these rules are just a framework” and it goes on go to encourage players to modify, add or subtract rules to suit their own needs. Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game but as GW declare that only 3 to 4% of their customers ever attend a tournament then I think it’s still good advice for the casual players out there. As to using other miniatures with other rulesets. I often use the Middle Earth rule set with historical and even Age of Sigmar minis.
I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change" I hate how it like "you stick with rules that may be shoddy or like everyone explodes if you say "Potions should Heal for 60% to 100% on roll" cuz they got no creative bones in body."
Those books were also full of crazy notions like "build your own vehicle model from a shampoo bottle!", which thankfully made an impression on me that lasts to this day
"Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game" You're wrong about this though. It has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments or even competitive play. It's about having a baseline so that two strangers can play a game together without knowing anything about each other beforehand because they have a shared understanding of the rules by which the game is played. Even as far back as 2e, very few people were playing custom rules. Most people used it as-is because it meant your group didn't isolate itself from the wider community, and if you couldn't play with your friends you could go play with someone else using the same list.
@@Subject_Keter 'I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"' They all already do that implicitly. But to actually have that happen, you need a consistent group who all play together and don't tend to play outside that group. Those groups inherently understand that they, in their insular gaming, can modify things however they want. Everyone else understands that they can't modify things the way they want, because a shared baseline is more important.
Im a pretty casual fan of Lord of the Rings but the Middle Earth Strategy Wargame has such tight and easy to understand rules that I've fallen in love with it.
I started just playing by myself. I have loved making my own terrain and battle table. I can play games that I'd never be able to find players for. I'm going through a Relicblade campaign rn and once that's done Im doing Deth Wizards. No schedules to work around. No sore losers. No begging people to play Skirmish games. Just fun in my basement.
Im too developing a post apocalyptic skirmisher with mostly PvE-features. You have a base on your paper, can gather resources, get new warriors via dice-throw after a mission, buy weapons, equipment and develop Power armour suits with parts you looted in game (also via random dice throw). Always wanted a fallout-esque game without burning my wallet on FO: Wasteland Warfare...
I can only agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said. Myself, I come from a time, when you got a recommendation in a RPG's fanzine to "just pick any miniature you like" to play that RPG with miniatures. The same fanzine suggested proxying miniatures for a DM: Use a robber to represent all kinds of human opponents, use a skeleton to represent all kinds of undead opponents and so on. For starters (with "starters" meaning "starting pretty much at the very beginning of fantasy miniature gaming"), that was enough. So, I learned a craft that's lost today: getting along with what you've got and using imagination. Today, some 1500 or so models later, I have sci fi soldiers, fantasy knights, cowboys, 15mm lawngnomes (I'm not kidding!) and what else. Having this collection I was like "screw it, I want one set of rules I can use to play with all those models and even pit models of different settings versus each other." Thus, I've written my own rules and released them for free. And what's even better: on Facebook I can see other people post photos showing how they are enjoying my rules - and this is the best gift I have ever gotten in my entire life :)
Literally tried One Page Rules, Grimdark Firefight last night with Necromunda models. Easy to learn, Smooth, and so much FUN. Committed to this ruleset. Highly recommend.
I'm a big fan of Kings of War. The lore itself is fine, but I chose to ignore it and think of something up myself when I started. And by golly, did my imagination get LIT ON FIRE. I've often looked at the rules and went, "This is good lore here, but what else can these rules represent?" Or more often, "these models look sweet! What force can I put them in that makes sense?" Or sometimes a modeling or kitbashing idea to try. For example: My magma men are mostly stormcast eternal minis with fire sculpted where their heads should be, while using the riftforged orcs list for stats. It's a blast.
My FLGS has a group that uses miniatures from Warmamachine, Warhammer 40k and fantasy/AoS, Infinity, plus a mix of minis from agnostic miniature copies to play Xenos Rampant by Osprey games.
The flip side of that is that embracing other rules frees your hobby, don't enjoy certain rules sets but like the models paint them have fun and it's not wasted hobby time as you can use them in another. Whatever you want to paint can and will find a use, and often without maybe having to paint a whole massive force to fit a particular game
100%! I’m using Stargrave minis, Warhammer 40k, killteman and necromunda models for Stargrave, space station zero and a bunch of other mini agnostic games
Last week we played the old Battle Masters game using rules from GMT’s Commands and Colors at our FLGS. We had a blast! Our Minis Agnostic Game Night is always loads of fun. We just finished a short Frostgrave:GA arc, we’ve tried some home brew games from members and played a ton of indie games. Definitely “Be the change you want to see” is the driving force.
That's something that always surprised me about people playing games in fictional settings- they say they hate what GW does to the system, but they don't want to play other games because they like GW minis or lore... like that's something chained together. Miniatures and rules are two different things. For me, as a historical wargamer - the historical conflicts are my vibes. I buy what minis I like. We have some rulesets on shelves for the same conflict. So we want to play napoleonics this week, and if we want something crunchy we will play Gods of War- Napoleon, if we want something fast and easy going we will use the same minis and play De Bellis Napoleonicis. Do whatever- don't let anybody dictate how to play. Buy minis you like, play games you enjoy.
In practice though, those are often chained together. If you want to play any game, you have to find or create other people who want to play it. If everyone else is happy enough with what GW does that their desire for improvement doesn't overcome their inertia, then you're not going to persuade them to try something else.
@@yurisei6732 That, and it's really in GW's commercial interest to strongly suggest that they are chained together. They sell both rules and miniatures, and people using other rules, or worse, getting funny ideas about rules and miniatures agnosticism isn't going to help their bottom line. :)
A game I’m currently running in place of the new kill team (which is fine, but pretty complex and none of the things I’d personally look for in skirmish games) is fistful of lead, which is like a mini agnostic, timeline agnostic, litr use any period you want retro-style game. You basically get five guys, give them all keywords to reflect what *you* think they’d do on the tabletop, and roll some dice.
Something to remember about big game companies is that the bottom line isnt fun its money. GW, FF, etc make money on the miniatures, paints, etc. The rules are just a way for them to push their least sold miniatures back into the light. Also talkign about miniature agnostic games, I based a bunch of lego minifigs on 25mm bases. Used them for war gaming, worked perfectly. I dont use them anymore but it was cool. Also if you are in need you can buy lego sets and use them as terrain and get miniatures too.
Rules can and do change from edition to edition. The vibe usually stays the same. If I'm going to paint up 100 minis for a wargame I'd better _LOVE_ the vibe.
I'd say with the proliferation of model agnostic games that allow players to create their own settings or use preexisting settings, finding the right rules is probably more important because that's what's going to keep players wanting to come back. You pick a game based on vibes, but the way it plays determines your enjoyment and therefore how long you're going to continue with it.
Right, but the point is that the vibes and the rules can be separate - you can love your Space Marines but use them in a different ruleset that you enjoy more than 40K, for example. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions The problem with that idea becomes apparent when you plop your Nurgle Marines across the table from a Star Wars droid army. 2 people can like a rule set but end up with different vibes. Some people won't like that. Tyranids and Space Marines will always fit. Halo minis vs Stormtroopers? Maybe not.
@@suburbansurvival8239 On the other hand, it doesn't matter if the vibes are right if you don't enjoy the mechanics of the game. Space Marines vs Tyranids may be cool, but no one is going to play out that scenario if it's a slog to do. Vibes get people in the door, but mechanics are what keep them playing.
One Page Rules is amazing especially as a Warhammer lore fan if you want to focus on timely matches and priority on storytelling over complicated rules. It also allows much more freedom between the different rulesets. You can play fleets, armies and skirmishes with largely comparable rules, even within the same storyline
When it comes to rules systems and wargamers, I'm always shocked when people wax poetic for an older edition of 40k, but when I suggest that you can still play that edition that treat me like the one talking crazy.
OPR allowed me and a buddy to answer the question: Who would win if Battletech and 40K got in a fight, battlemechs vs imperial knights. For now it's imperial knights, but the inner sphere is not beaten yet!
My current shoutout for mini-agnostic stuff is Warsurge. Great system for people who like to have a lot of control over their armies rules and just making really fun and unique stuff. It’s essentially 5-7th Ed 40k inspired mechanics with just pages upon pages of special rules covering everything from psychological effects, to elemental strengths/weaknesses, to spells, buffs/debuffs and more.
For me playing the games is a way to immerse myself in the world. Feeling the strengths of various factions and units helps to make the world come to life. Also to play a game in the universe feels like being in it.
Wooohooo learned a new word today : behoove=it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something. Thanks! And yes we all should try out more (indie) games. Great advice as always.
One Page Rules used to be my preferred version of 40k. Then I found Space Weirdos and a bunch of other light systems. I realized that I prefer less rules and more options across war bands. I still have all my 40k/Necromunda minis and those that came in the box games sold through Barnes and Noble.
My tabletop war game of choice has had relatively stable rules sense is was released 40 years ago. Classic battletech rules can be crunchy, but can be streamlined. But the biggest thing I love about it is its stability.
CodeBlade is one of the best mini agnostic games that’s really worth a look - shortlisted for best new miniatures rules award at the UKGE this year! The game attracts people for its rules from beyond the cyberpunk fanbase.
one time i tired using GW minis in a D&D campaign and i LITERALLY DIED do NOT attempt posting this as a warning to anyone thinking about making this mistake
My favorite rules set is Infinity. To me it has the perfect granularity and really captures what I want in a game. It's a little too crunchy and time consuming right now though because I have a lot on my plate so I am currently looking at Blkout because it seems to have the same feel to the rules but at a much faster level. I'm waiting for one of the guys at my hobby shop to get his stuff for it so he can run a demo of it.
BattleDroids, or Original Battletech before clans... I loved the creation rules to make and battle test my builds. I was not huge into the lore, just loved the game mechanics and being able to create new big stompy robots and then seeing how they fared against my friends creations. I loved Car wars and Micro Armour. Star Fleet Battles was also a good time, even though its rules were redonkulus. Dream Pod 9 and its Mecha games were also fun for me. I just bought your DETH Wizards, and will be giving it a go most likely solo.. I am happy to see games looking at the solo players these days. I live way out in the boonies of Texas so I don't get much chance to game these days with others... so I am thankful for the solo rules many AGNOSTIC games provide.
Another good, thought-provoking video! Our group is mostly an indie game group (plus Battletech Alpha Strike and Bolt Action). OPR, Weirdos games, Song of Blades and Heros, Pulp Alley to name a few. We also look at and review (for ourselves) probably 1 or 2 games a week on average. The current mantra for our "internal reviews" is "Neat setting, that we could incorporate into known existing rule sets". When looking to buy (or have our friend Skip print for us) a new mini, one of the top criteria is: How many games will this miniature work in? Because we use multiple minis from multiple companies for multiple games. Heavily laden opinions to follow: I don't think I could name a "favorite". Bolt Action, Alpha Strike, Grim Dark Future (GDF) and GDF Firefight are at the top of my personal list. We have decided that the "perfect" game, for us, does not exist, but we keep looking. Every game system has its pros and cons. We use the categories of the "5 M's". I don't know who came up with this, but I learned it from Daron Patton. Move, Missile, Melee, Magic, Morale. For all of these rules sets, do we like how each of those work? How does Movement (including activation) work in this game?...and so on. We learn new systems in this context as well. Thanks again for the video! Keep 'em coming!
With model design being what it is at this point in time, "good looking models" are now an expectation, but it's the rules that really keep my attention on a game.
Very much appreciated Uncle Adam. I really like how you are able to bring together so many different systems and help people broaden their horizon. It definitively has cost me some time tl break free from the "closed unsiverse"
Honestly...good point. And one that I have been thinking more and more about. I've been getting into things like Frostgrave, and looking forward to Deth Wizards, and the idea of just...making whatever miniatures I want or using random miniatures even outside of the lore feels pretty liberating. And after realizing I get a daunted and disinterested feeling every time I even GLANCE at the 40k rules, maybe something like One Page Rules is the better option. I do admit, at least a PART of my loyalty lies in the fact that I am an employee of and dedicated to my LGS. But both Warhammer and Magic have shown more and more issues while other games look so much more fresh and well designed....it does make me think. But the money still comes more from those two major juggernauts, so I feel so weirdly obligated. That is also probably the reason I simply...focus elsewhere and do a lot of hobby in my free time, though...
I managed to find one box of Skaven Clanrats at my local GS, they are now painted for the D&D campaign I'm running. I'm also painting the Wayward Eight from Wild West Exodus to use for Space Station Zero.
Up until 8 years ago, I'd never played modern day gaming (WW2). My whole group got into Bolt Action at that time when it was exploding as the "new" game to play, so I tried it out. Found too many holes in the game system and didn't give me the satisfaction of gaming WW2. Another friend introduce me to Chain of Command...well well well...this was a really nice set which captured the feel for squad/platoon tactics and love the unique game mechanics for the period. Needless to say during my initial adventure in BA, I really dig the Warlord Game miniatures which support their game. So to this day, I still buy their miniatures and some from other companies, but use them in my Chain of Command games. Another great video!
I was feeling so frustrated with ‘needing’ to paint an army for 40K. It was so much to paint, and felt stuck my throat rules. Finding GDF-Firefight was like a breath of fresh air. It was so freeing and really helped me realize that I can really do whatever I want with these minis. Want to kit bash and turn you First Born Sternguard into a Team with cool different weapons? Yes please. What to kit bash you Primaris Captain, Bladeguard, and give you Infiltrators chair swords? Go to town. I’ve found so much freedom and excitement for painting again by just realizing I can do whatever I want.
I've been playing miniature games since the 80's, so quite some time now, and in that time, I have just become jaded with how rules are. They swing wildly between oversimplified to too clunky, the happy medium between these two seems to be a rarity. So, I've set myself a goal to design a set of Fantasy Rank & Flank rules that is simple enough to learn, but retains depth. Currently I have all the core rules done just working on the units for the many fantasy races. After that, I have no idea how to make it available for people.
Here's an idea for a video: We hobbyists like to talk about miniature agnostic rulesets, but what about rules agnostic miniatures? An example could be someone like me with exclusively sci-fi minis and terrain who is interested in getting into fantasy, but not one specific ruleset. There are many intriguing rulesets on offer: the new AoS Spearhead mode, Kings of War, Mordheim, Frostgrave, Rangers of Shadow Deep, Deth Wizards, all with different mechanics to explore and have fun with. Which miniatures/factions would be the most versatile to build and paint for all these different systems? Necromancers and zombies might fit the bill, but what else? Could the cool new Skaven models find use in all of these? Or the great-looking Gloomspite Gitz Vanguard box? Are regular Frostgrave humans the safest bet? It's something I'm considering a lot at the moment, because I'd basically be starting from scratch and would like a lot of bang for my buck (and time) in terms of what miniatures to buy, build and paint. I thought it sounded just like a topic for you, so I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on this. Cheers!
I loved your last tip. I got fed up with how toxic and unfun 40k games was and stopped playing for a long time after 13 years. One year ago I remembered another miniature game that I used to play way back called malifaux. I introduced it to my friends and right now we have all stopped playing 40k and we are enjoying that new game for over a year.
I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in Malifaux with my local game stores and it's so great to see! It's such a wonderful, fun, and sadistic little game! I'm glad you're having fun with it, too!
Man, I hope this trend makes it to my neck of the woods, I love Malifaux but no one around me plays anymore despite me trying haha. Would love to see an uptick of it!
Over the last two days I've been getting over an emotional rollercoaster of unrelated issues, and one of the things that dragged me out of that hole was discovering mini-agnostic wargames with campaign play. I've been trawling for any free rulesets I can find since then, making notes about what I liked and what I didn't about each. Super interesting right now.
I got tired of the GW rules cycle after the end of 7th to start of 8th Now I use a 40k inquisition warband, chaos cultists, and converted dark mechanicum models for Space Station Zero I use Necromunda models for Five Parsecs from Home I use Start Wars Legion models for Stargrave I use Gloomspite Gitz for Hobgoblin I use warcry and underworlds kits for Mordheim I like the rules to be the same from when I start a project to the time I finish it. I do works slowly though
@@thomgizzizlook at this salty Stan trolling everyone who's engaging with the video. Go be happy and interact with folks who don't have issues with 40k rules.
Well some might say finding players is the most important, without that there is no game. Not everyone prioritizes rules, particularly as in something like 40k its changed at lot over the editions.
My very first wargaming group (1992) used Games Workshop’s Warhammer Fantasy rules with homemade paper shapes cut from custom, base-sized graph paper to represent models and units. At different points in my life, i was a competitive player in a few systems BUT i 100% link success back to those days of paper models. I think the key to it was that since we didn’t have model availability to hold us back we mostly all played a different faction like every week. For a brand new player it was a mind opening experience.
I got into Citadel (yes, I said Citadel - not Warhammer or 40k) because of the minis. When I tried gaming, I didn't really enjoy it. I realized I prefer table top RPGs. Those, by the way, are easily made miniature-agnostic, since the minis represent whatever you say you are doing. But I continue to build and paint units from both "OldHammer," and 40k, mostly using proxies that i 3d print. I enjoy the vibe, and build and paint however I like. So, I think you nailed this topic on the head.
I've played and collected and painted GW stuff for so long and so many years that I was super into the sunk cost fallacy. Then I made the jump to Infinity (which I love, but is way too rules dense) after tinkering for a bit, I then moved into OPR. I haven't had much luck converting people to OPR out of the 40K group, but I've had a lot more fun playing. Now, I'm looking at more and more mini-agnostic games just to play cool stuff.
One aspect of certain people’s reluctance to try other, non big GW systems... The Friday night group at one of LGS is very much a competition focused crew. They view their weekly games as tournament prep and list testing opportunities. So these folks are heavily invested in 40k and/or AoS. Do they complain about the rules? All the time. Are they interested in trying other systems? Not at all. Part of the “problem” is that, for example, 40k is so complex and changes so often that I believe committed players just don’t want to, or just don’t have the mental resources available to absorb another system. I’ve certainly heard people say that keeping all the 40k interactions straight is tough enough without adding the confusion of assimilating another rule set.
Star Breach is a great skirmish game rule! I've been playing it since its beta test alongside the creator. It's a really quick and simple mechanic that works well at small scale firefights and you'll only need to worry about having 4-8 models on the table. You can even have big stompin' mechs, big monsters, and scary demons all playing on the same table. There are even 3-player and 4-player scenarios for big group games in the paid version of the rules.
It's such an obvious point, upon analysis, but one so easily overlooked - especially when the lore and the quality of minis are so hugely invested in. Well done for making it, though - I couldn't agree more. This is the engine of a game - it's essential that it works properly and delivers an experience worthy of the time and money hobbyists invest in it.
The Battlefield by Brent Spivey is one of my most favorite rules sets. It is tactical but very streamlined. Offers a bunch of options for force customization and does a great job of creating an ultra-modern/hard sci-fi "vibe".
Was playing 40k for some time, but was getting disappointed by the fact that I had to re-learn rule-changes each time when I'm playing, plus for most of time I was not allowed to use the minis that I wanted most - especially for Kill Team. Then I moved to OPR and suddenly I was able to bring my boys to the table for the first time. And I was able to play more games with it in a shorter period of time. Currently painting some dwarf broforce to do some zombie slaying survival with them based on the OPR.
I'm enjoying your Deth wizard game! The push and pull of the necromantic energy being both hit point and magic points is really interesting. And I can use my GW minis without having to deal with the fact that I have to learn yet another new edition of AoS for no reason.
Currently getting into "The Silver Bayonet". I enjoyed Guerrilla Miniature Games Battle Reports on Mordheim and found Silver Bayonet on his channel as well. I remembered Peachy Tips making a video about it. Checked it out and started to really get into it.
The biggest bit for me is pushing for older editions of Warhammer to be played. The later editions just haven't been up to snuff, but I can't seem to shake the "newest is best" mindset from my locals. Just going to have to keep at it and hope something sticks. Great video as always, always great to hear you break down other perspectives and options.
Thanks for the OPR shoutout! I'm trying to grow my local OPR community. I've been teaching new players every week. OPR is even better because you can create your own version of their armies using the custom army creator.
Oh, i have opinions. I absolutely fell in love with OPR Firefights the last year, because as someone who is mainly into painting small groups of units, "bring whatever" is really appealing. I bring Space Marines, you bring garden gnomes? Splendid! I can buy whatever range i enjoy by whatever company or artist and make it work. And for crunchy rules, i love Battletech. It was my introduction into the whole nerdverse decades ago, and i love how miniscule details about every mech matter. That being said, it's so crunchy that i nowadays mostly play it over the free online client which will do the hundreds of dice rolls for me. Just this week i finished a battle within an evening that would've taken us multiple days on tabletop. That's why i think they're going in the right direction with the Alpha Strike rules, which is like a completely different ruleset for the same game that turns it into something resembling a skirmish game. Being able to finish a game in one session is really important to me.
I like OPR for the middling crunch and model freedom, which is great for me who like grabbing whatever I think is coolest and using whatever bits I like despite rules. It just feels nice, even if I never get to play because I live in a small town, but maybe I could look into finding or starting a group. Or doing solo games. I don't know, I've got options.
There was definitely a period of my life where I felt like games I played using official rules were somehow "official" in a sense, and that games I played in the same setting using other rulesets (OPR, in my case) were somehow more akin to fan fiction. It was just this purely emotional thing and I could never explain it to my friends, but there's a level where I feel like my little plastic regiments have histories, and for whatever reason, I could not incorporate the most incredible and dramatic OPR games into that history even though we were playing with the same minis and the same setting. One day, I think I just sort of woke up and felt like it was silly to have that arbitrary box around my fun, but I do sometimes wonder if a lot of 40k players have similar feelings.
Zone Raiders and Full Spectrum Dominance are my two go to games for amazing games. I love the cyberpunk, skirmish level combat that Zone Raiders has. The movement is second to none in my opinion, with your figures running and grappling around the battlefield like a cyber ninja. FSD is the flip side of that though. More 2D, but the gameplay is fast, small footprint, and more tactical since you have only a limited number of activations, so planning is important otherwise key aspects of your force may sit idle.
I keep telling people that there's a difference between being for everyone and welcoming everyone. You can welcome everyone you want but you can't make a single thing that's one size fits all.
I really enjoy the Oldhammered channel for their battle reports, they play indie games but use whatever minis fit with the games setting often old GW minis.
Thank you for this reminder. It's hard to remember that everyone is in a different place and their opinions, no matter how loud or informed or echoed, don't have to be YOUR be-all-end-all. Looking foward to finally getting some minis on the table for Space Station Zero and living out some Alternate Kill Team scenarios :)
Endorse Ash's batreps. He has saved me wasting a whole host of cash on rules that are unlikely to hit my dopamine centre. Another aspect to note is that you, your environment and your priorities will change over time and thus the rulesets you use may also change. Don't forget scale and the benefits of being able to reuse scenery elements. I've had mates who had a permanent 8x4 board, great for vehicle combat, mass rank and flank and can be left up over night for a large weekend battles. In recent times I'm stuck with a 6x3 dining room table that needs to be used daily. Quick setup and reset is now more important than deep and crunchy. 3x3 skirmish is where I am at most of the time these days. However, you need to find rulesets that you can identify with, no different to finding a partner, a sport or an employer. And it's great that we are all different and value different things. There are some great potential rulesets in the US that are cost prohibitive to get in the UK. I know the issue is reciprocated with UK stuff being expensive in the US. I think you and Vince have done a great job in allowing us in the UK to get your rulesets printed for a small postage premium. So in line with we don't praise the systems we love, these are the rulesets I currently use and am fond of, in no particular order. An eclectic mix of eras based on 40 years of collecting miniatures and having the ability to wargame with whatever my guest(s) want to play. I've tried keeping at 28mm to be able to reuse tabletop scenery. 28mm Five Parsces from Home Five Leagues from the Borderland Mantic Deadzone John Lambshead One Hour Skirmish Neil Thomas One Hour Wargames 7TV The Pikemens Lament Fear and Faith Mutants and Death Ray Guns Other scales Mantic Kings of War Armada Void Admiral Have fun and thanks for another great thought provoking video.
Ash's battle reports for Frostgrave back in 2015 were the catalyst for my gaming group and I trying out the system. We've been hardcore fans ever since.
Talking about miniature agnostic rules gave me a flashback to Vor: The Maelstrom. A '40k killer' from 1999 put out by FASA (the original creators of Battletech for all those youngsters that need to get off my lawn). I loved that game, the rules were pretty simple (at least compared to 40k 3rd Edition), the lore was cool and unique (Earth is on the brink of a 3rd world war when it gets sucked into a possibly sentient and malevolent pocket dimension full of similarly trapped aliens), it had its own line of cool models (many of which I still own) and best of all? The core rule book included rules for creating your own faction, so I could play my Neo-Soviets against my next-door neighbor's Space Marines. Sadly, as FASA went so did VOR and when FASA closed shop in 2001 so did VOR. I remember someone tried to bring it back on kick-starter but it fell through which isn't surprising given the original only had a couple years in the world (some games... *holds back tears*... die too young). Which now that I think about it is pretty unique; don't think I've ever come across another game that had official units/models AND rules for creating your own armies from scratch. 🤔
A short while back I took a quick peek at Wargamevault and saw Deth Wizards front and center, thought it looked interesting but wasn't necessarily the "vibe" I was going for at first glance. Maybe a day or two later I watched and re-watched a video on it from ULC Battle Reports as a first try/first impression and he sold me. Currently going to use some of the OPR Mummified Undead I have and a generous fistful of BriteMini's undead as well as (living) Arabian-style minis for heroes, and scrounging or printing more terrain to complete the desert theme. Having a difficult time finding spirit-type minis I want to use. Conclusion: I agree rules are more important than vibes, with exceptions. and again to shout out ULC Battle Reports.
40k was my first TTG way back when 3rd ed came out, I stopped playing right as 5th edition came out. Sold all my armies then. Now I own a Votann army because Squats, played one game of 9th and maybe three so far of 10th. Love the IP and always will. Can't say the same for the actual game. Good thing about 40k is you can always find a player no matter what LGS you walk into.
I'm getting into Necromunda rn. It's a little crunchy, my first few games have been boring as I keep needing to check the massive rulebook for clarification. I get the impression that it'll be insane fun once I'm confident with the rules; I see why people heavily encourage you to find someone to teach you rather then attempt to get into it yourself. One thing that I know will make it all worth it is Scatter Templates. I have zero idea why these haven't been added back into 40k. They're so much fun.
I definitely agree with this like 90%, but I also feel like the game FEEL really turns people away from using alternate rules for their favourite settings. Personally I do enjoy 10th edition 40K and honestly most of the games I’ve played, but I think you can’t really ignore the fact that a space marine won’t feel like a space marine in a game with no space marines, and also that some people are frustrated with the feel of stuff like that already within their own game where there isn’t even a better alternative
We are a couple of old blokes who still play W40k 8th edition. Plus house-rules to better reflect the fluff. You might even say it’s more like 2nd edition, since I end up being something of a GM for our tabletop stories.
I'll sing OPR's praises over and over again - I met some of their team at UKGE, and even the people were great! (Looking to get into Space station Zero soon too). We just use 40k models and lore in OPR's Firefight (Killteam) ruleset. Our group only meets ~4 times a year, so having to wade through all the GW expense of updating rulesets etc is just not viable. It's much more accessible, whilst actually being massively tactical given the simpler ruleset. Lastly - OPR seem to have a good vibe to their rules if that makes sense. The way they update things in seemingly small incremental changes - seems to be a good philosophy. In our group at least, we can come back 4 months later, check our previous army list on their free army builder, and nothing has changed s drastically that it's completely unviable to play a fun game.
It's a very important message... well, about as 'important' as anything related to toys and games is gonna get. Once you've got a set of minis you like... then you should feel free to use them in whatever settings you like using whatever rules you prefer. Play '40K' with Ganesha's Mutants and Death Ray Guns, or play '40K' with THW's 5150, or play '40K' with OPR's GDF. You do not have to toe the company line and will probably be happier if you don't.
Stopping in to tickle the algo and say that I've been playing Deth Wizards with my 10y/o daughter using a mix of minis from Kingdom Death, Castle Ravenloft board game, Descent Journeys in the Dark 1st edition and a few other miscelanous minis I have and we've been having an absolute blast! Regarding rules; the rules are why I love Kill Team and Warcry but will never make the leap to "full" 40k.
I didn't think OPR could work as well as it did. Me and my now playing buddy had so many different games we decided to try opr with primaris and mini marines but also dust 49 walkers and the mechanicus dune walker. So lot's of fun, so much fun ! When 10 40k wasn't much fun for me against alpha strikers... So rules are gold but a good player if invaluable ❤❤❤❤❤
I definitely get this particularly for skirmish games. I used to love the art for kill team and necromunda but I could never force myself to play. I just completely bounced off the rules, so I avoided skirmish games for a long time. But lately I’ve tried blackout and really liked it so it’s convinced me to give other skirmish systems a shot. I’m putting together a game to try firefight we’re gonna see how it goes.
Currently trying to mash up some Legions Imperialis with Advanced Squad Leader for solo play just because i really like how the ASL scenarios are designed. It also lets me use my HeroScape tiles.
I'm currently enjoying Deth Wizards, using a mix of Warmachine (Cryx) and various other minis. It's giving me incentive to get more of my undead painted, and I'm working on more 3D terrain that I can use with Deth Wizards as well as Warmachine and D&D. It's a good time.
I like: Star Breach for the initiative system and army lists. Space Weirdos for the sandbox vibe and solo play. Forbidden Psalm family for small model counts and appeal for my d20 rpg friends. Tobel28 and other indie 28 games for quick teaching.
I'm literally modifying Warfleets (from opr) ...one of the BEST rulesets for space/navel combat and making it work for BattleTech. Which also means getting to smash together Mechs with OPRs (superior fluff wise) take on space marines and cause. Unsurprisingly, its not hard to get people excited about it and willing to give it a whirl. People LIKE new things.
I've been making this argument about Roleplaying Games lately as well. There was a video the other day I was watching where they literally stated "art is the most important thing in an rpg" and I started yelling at my screen. (they were reviewing Wildsea, which is beautiful)
Strongly agree. I am a Hobby Shop and I make a living selling and building a community and the biggest thing I've learned operating for 3 years is this.
-New people curious about miniature war-gaming feel embarrassed to try since it is little toys, games like WW2 and Star Wars are good introductions since they are familiar and overall the star wars legion game and Bolt Action are extremely friendly for entry game systems.
-Game's Workshop rules changes, updates, and out dating rule books has made more people quit the hobby, stop buying, stop participating, and give up than any other aspect of this industry. The way they focus on tournaments and the meta does push people away and it has hurt my business because of it. The biggest issue I have is products will essentially expire like an army rulebook sometimes within the same week it is released due to rule patches and updates and those hundreds of dollars in inventory and shelving of just 5 of those books becomes lost income and directly hurts my ability to order more inventory.
-Agnostic game systems have given a lot of options for 3rd party miniature lines to be shelved, encouraging kitbashing and creativity which the artistic side of the hobby draws more consumable sales like paints, material, and conversation as we all brainstorm new ways to approach projects. Agnostic is more consumer friendly and you the consumer will benefit from more products and value from your money being involved with it. The only ones who don't are these global corporations that wouldn't know if one day you passed away, but your local community does, they know who you are, they know what you liked, and what your hobbies were. They value your time, money, and presence. Value your community, they are who cares about you, nameless giant corporations are not your friend.
Hi there. Making a new wargame over here. What can you tell me that would make my game palatable to add to your inventory as a hobby store owner?
@@ThortheGodly I really appreciate reaching out. I've done a lot of experiments with game design and modding other tabletop games for play by users and I feel there are a couple details that seem to make a pattern in it all.
So let's start with less opinion based game mechanic choices first. Accessibility. This hobby is expensive and no matter with 3D printing or alternative options the building, painting, and passion behind peoples collection takes time and if they are passionate enough it'll cost money no matter what. So obviously making the game more universal is essential for new people trying it or playing it. First is scale and size of models. Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion, 40k (Normal humans) these I would argue are some of the biggest games and what do they have in common? Scale. You can take a soviet, a guardsmen lasgun, and stick it on a star wars legion base and it's playable piece in all 3 games. Kitbashing, and mixing models together is one of the core aspects of army creation and if the models are standardized to 28mm more model kits and players as a whole will have access to playing said game. Players allowed to be creative like a modding community did for Skyrim the video game will naturally create more longevity by allowing a community to cultivate their own content using your engine and platform. You won't make as much direct sales, but a creative passionate customer will make more long term sales than a short term tournament focused individual which may play for only maybe 2 years, lose enough battles to 'retire' and maybe pick up the game next edition 2 years later.
Second I'd argue is rules. You're game can have layers don't be afraid to add graphs and charts for mechanics, but keep in mind all elements of the game should use at best basic math and should be easy to memorize or access quickly. If it's a little more difficult a key front and back page is essentially as complicated it should get. If players need to stop an already 3 hour game to sit down and read through a 400 page book to refer to a rule and then 20 minutes later do it again you're game is going to burn people out and push more outsiders away than invite in. A good warhammer rule with basic math is their Toughness to Strength. Every unit has a toughness, and every weapon has a Strength. If those numbers are tied than 50%, a 4+ on a D6 to succeed. If you are stronger than they are tough than a 3+, otherwise 5+ vise versa. You hear the number 14 strength, and 9 Toughness and you immediately know the answer to your roll. That allows a massive expansion of stat lines for units while keeping a easy engine for players to operate. A bad design for player accessibility is say the rest of the shooting process. Roll to Hit accounting for terrain conditions, Roll armor penetration for armor conditions, Roll Save now just in case target that was hit and penetrate just feels lucky and doesn't want to take that damage right now, and in some cases roll a feel no pain or what ever just in case they were really sure they didn't want to take that damage. You could roll 10 dice, get 5 Success, then 2 penetrations, then 1 failed save, but be ignored with that last feel no pain which ends with 5 minutes of dice rolling just to say you did nothing have a nice day. That is bad game design, tons of steps that have to be refer to, easily mixed up what order to do it in, and to the players perspective doesn't make sense why if a shot hits and a shot clears the armor wouldn't damage? It just feels like almost padding like a grinding in an MMO to make the game simulate gameplay without giving players much involvement or part in it outside of helping the engine process the attack effect.
This is a lot already and I would almost say I probably could just make a video elaborating deeper on the subject at this point so maybe message me directly if you would like to talk more.
@@brighamgorzealionmaybe you should do a video then xD
streamlining thought is really important, just being able to do quick mental math on what an ability is gonna do is really important even in video games where the computer can do the math for you. otherwise people stop taking informed decisions and just start wildly guessing.
@@oscaranderson5719 yes exactly, layers aren't the issue, but when it's the players job to resolve those layers using multiple steps just to turn the engine and process said data you're killing your game and in my case my girlfriends desire to try it.
There are three player factions in our One Page Rules community -
One group, slightly larger than the others, uses the OPR settings. It's enough to build the battles around, and is 'good enough'.
The second largest group plays using GW's settings, mostly 40K.
The third group is creating their own settings, or at least sub-setting. My Notcromunda campaign falls into this group. Instead of one mega hive, there are six (formerly seven) smaller hive cities interconnected by roads, tunnels, and even canals both on the surface and underground.
Our groups split from GW about midway through 9th edition 40K.
It was definitely the rules, not the settings, that alienated the players.
As an aside - it was a Lot easier to bring players onboard for OPR than it was for Mantic - much as I love Kings of War.
I love the simple yet extremely flavorfulness of the great ruleset that is turnip28, played 40k for way too long left at the turn of 10th ed and will never go back. Love the 40k old lore and 5th/6th ed rules. But rules so simple it's grey like how the models start are the post 2018 games workshop way, way too smooth.
My father, my close buddy, and myself use GW Lore and models but use the OPR rule set. Was the best decision we ever made as a group.
@@YeAuldGrump I had the exact same experience with OPR - I was trying to get back into 40k when 10e came out, as I have around 5000 points worth of Necrons that are collecting dust and I was getting the wargaming itch again. I was met with a collective "meh" from the group, even when I offered to 3D print proxies for everyone. When I suggested ORP as an alternative, people I didn't even know were interested in wargaming wanted to join the group!
I like to use OPR to play the 40k universe right before the great crusade. It makes sense why there are so many different alien species, it's because the emperor hasn't done genocide on most of them yet
Warhammer
Came for the minis.
Stayed for the lore.
Suffer the rules.
The story of us all.
You can always scape. Change the mind of your colleagues or if not, try solo!
I stopped suffering the rules as 40k 9th came out. I realised I'd bought more books than I'd played games in 8th, so it wasn't a worthwhile spend to get the next edition.
@@Mikey__R Totally agree. I am an Astra Militarum player. I was getting bored with only competitive gaming and when almost same day that AM Codex came out the announced new edition I said "I stop here"
THIS
100% on every single point. More people need to watch this and really really listen. Also add the not so helpful line. "The multi-million dollar company doesn't need you to defend it's rules. They don't care about you."
I've been developing my own tabletop wargame as a modification for 10th edition, and I gotta say that getting people to play something even *SLIGHTLY* different, even just as a playtest, it's absolutely wild. It's like pulling teeth, even if they hate the current rules!
Could you put a pdf up on a website or social media or smth? I’d be happy to play test an alt-40K and give feedback :D
I’d be game to try
@@thomgizziz that’s not a very kind or reassuring thing to say. He has friends and he wants to try something new. I’d wager given how emotionally charged your response to this was, that your not exactly drowning in friends
At least you tried to playtest, so you already have one over GW.
@@thomgizzizwhat crawled up your butt and died?
If you are hanging with friends it's not a waste of time, and if you start testing with a smaller scale it's and hour or two. Really no big deal. If you never try anything you won't ever find anything better, no guarantees in life.
Maybe I'm revealing my age here, but I started wargaming way back when there was no such thing as "dedicated miniatures". There were miniatures - and for most of us this was primarily Airfix plastic miniatures and UNPAINTED - and then there were rulebooks. The first rulebook I ever used was by Donald Featherstone "Wargaming Airborne Operations" and they were about as basic and "agnostic" as you could get. Your thoughts on this, and the trend towards these agnostic rules sets speak to me in a very nostalgic way, and I applaud them. All the best!
I had that (Wargaming Airborne Operations) as a kid... and it was a transformative text in my life.
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017. I'd been playing since the Rogue Trader era in the late 1980s; I wasn't willing to just give up my 5 completely painted armies, so I found ways to use them in other games. Grimdark Future, Stargrave, Rogue Stars, Xenos Rampant, and Space Weirdos all have helped breathe new life into my ridiculously large sci-fi miniatures collections.
At the start of the video, when you said "crunchy", like a simulation, slowing down play, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech", and when you said "streamlined", abstracted and without flavour, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech Alpha Strike". Battletech truly bookends the rules density scale.
Certainly crunchy at the base but you can at least just add what you want. We have been enjoying the Forced Withdrawal rule for cutting down the amount of time playing. Of course, your mileage might vary.
If only they had one that was in the middle, but alas!
@@inplacesdeepthe battlemech manual
And if those two modes are too extreme for you, there is the DeatFromAboveWargaming mod called „Battletech: Override“ that is the absolute sweet spot for people who don‘t have that much time because of kids but don‘t want to play a game that is as far away from classic as Alpha Strike.
@@inplacesdeepSee Battletech:Override ua-cam.com/video/rGfMcH0Jn4A/v-deo.htmlsi=usq7_DdhoQNm97Rf
I think it’s in the 2nd edition 40K rule book that it states that “these rules are just a framework” and it goes on go to encourage players to modify, add or subtract rules to suit their own needs. Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game but as GW declare that only 3 to 4% of their customers ever attend a tournament then I think it’s still good
advice for the casual players out there.
As to using other miniatures with other rulesets. I often use the Middle Earth rule set with historical and even Age of Sigmar minis.
I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"
I hate how it like "you stick with rules that may be shoddy or like everyone explodes if you say "Potions should Heal for 60% to 100% on roll" cuz they got no creative bones in body."
Those books were also full of crazy notions like "build your own vehicle model from a shampoo bottle!", which thankfully made an impression on me that lasts to this day
"Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game"
You're wrong about this though. It has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments or even competitive play. It's about having a baseline so that two strangers can play a game together without knowing anything about each other beforehand because they have a shared understanding of the rules by which the game is played.
Even as far back as 2e, very few people were playing custom rules. Most people used it as-is because it meant your group didn't isolate itself from the wider community, and if you couldn't play with your friends you could go play with someone else using the same list.
@@Subject_Keter 'I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"'
They all already do that implicitly. But to actually have that happen, you need a consistent group who all play together and don't tend to play outside that group.
Those groups inherently understand that they, in their insular gaming, can modify things however they want. Everyone else understands that they can't modify things the way they want, because a shared baseline is more important.
@@IVIaskerade Obviously, i just see too many mind slaves shackled to GW and dont try.
Im a pretty casual fan of Lord of the Rings but the Middle Earth Strategy Wargame has such tight and easy to understand rules that I've fallen in love with it.
I started just playing by myself. I have loved making my own terrain and battle table. I can play games that I'd never be able to find players for. I'm going through a Relicblade campaign rn and once that's done Im doing Deth Wizards. No schedules to work around. No sore losers. No begging people to play Skirmish games. Just fun in my basement.
Idk why but it so fun to set up the board, the rules and what not and play stuff out.
It like abit of Zen.
Im too developing a post apocalyptic skirmisher with mostly PvE-features. You have a base on your paper, can gather resources, get new warriors via dice-throw after a mission, buy weapons, equipment and develop Power armour suits with parts you looted in game (also via random dice throw).
Always wanted a fallout-esque game without burning my wallet on FO: Wasteland Warfare...
I can only agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.
Myself, I come from a time, when you got a recommendation in a RPG's fanzine to "just pick any miniature you like" to play that RPG with miniatures.
The same fanzine suggested proxying miniatures for a DM: Use a robber to represent all kinds of human opponents, use a skeleton to represent all kinds of undead opponents and so on. For starters (with "starters" meaning "starting pretty much at the very beginning of fantasy miniature gaming"), that was enough.
So, I learned a craft that's lost today: getting along with what you've got and using imagination.
Today, some 1500 or so models later, I have sci fi soldiers, fantasy knights, cowboys, 15mm lawngnomes (I'm not kidding!) and what else.
Having this collection I was like "screw it, I want one set of rules I can use to play with all those models and even pit models of different settings versus each other."
Thus, I've written my own rules and released them for free.
And what's even better: on Facebook I can see other people post photos showing how they are enjoying my rules - and this is the best gift I have ever gotten in my entire life :)
Literally tried One Page Rules, Grimdark Firefight last night with Necromunda models. Easy to learn, Smooth, and so much FUN. Committed to this ruleset. Highly recommend.
OPR's warband builder, Army Forge, is fantastic as well! Hope you give that a try.
I'm a big fan of Kings of War. The lore itself is fine, but I chose to ignore it and think of something up myself when I started.
And by golly, did my imagination get LIT ON FIRE. I've often looked at the rules and went, "This is good lore here, but what else can these rules represent?" Or more often, "these models look sweet! What force can I put them in that makes sense?" Or sometimes a modeling or kitbashing idea to try.
For example:
My magma men are mostly stormcast eternal minis with fire sculpted where their heads should be, while using the riftforged orcs list for stats.
It's a blast.
Vibes get me to try a game and rules will get me to play it again
My FLGS has a group that uses miniatures from Warmamachine, Warhammer 40k and fantasy/AoS, Infinity, plus a mix of minis from agnostic miniature copies to play Xenos Rampant by Osprey games.
From Blazing Saddles, " harrumph!".
Brother Howard Johnson??? Please don't tell me the Arbites are near...
I bet that’s awesome, especially if they have a unifying color scheme or visual style for each army
The flip side of that is that embracing other rules frees your hobby, don't enjoy certain rules sets but like the models paint them have fun and it's not wasted hobby time as you can use them in another. Whatever you want to paint can and will find a use, and often without maybe having to paint a whole massive force to fit a particular game
100%! I’m using Stargrave minis, Warhammer 40k, killteman and necromunda models for Stargrave, space station zero and a bunch of other mini agnostic games
Exactly. Thanks for watching!
Last week we played the old Battle Masters game using rules from GMT’s Commands and Colors at our FLGS. We had a blast! Our Minis Agnostic Game Night is always loads of fun. We just finished a short Frostgrave:GA arc, we’ve tried some home brew games from members and played a ton of indie games. Definitely “Be the change you want to see” is the driving force.
That's something that always surprised me about people playing games in fictional settings- they say they hate what GW does to the system, but they don't want to play other games because they like GW minis or lore... like that's something chained together. Miniatures and rules are two different things. For me, as a historical wargamer - the historical conflicts are my vibes. I buy what minis I like. We have some rulesets on shelves for the same conflict. So we want to play napoleonics this week, and if we want something crunchy we will play Gods of War- Napoleon, if we want something fast and easy going we will use the same minis and play De Bellis Napoleonicis. Do whatever- don't let anybody dictate how to play. Buy minis you like, play games you enjoy.
In practice though, those are often chained together. If you want to play any game, you have to find or create other people who want to play it. If everyone else is happy enough with what GW does that their desire for improvement doesn't overcome their inertia, then you're not going to persuade them to try something else.
@@yurisei6732 That, and it's really in GW's commercial interest to strongly suggest that they are chained together. They sell both rules and miniatures, and people using other rules, or worse, getting funny ideas about rules and miniatures agnosticism isn't going to help their bottom line. :)
A game I’m currently running in place of the new kill team (which is fine, but pretty complex and none of the things I’d personally look for in skirmish games) is fistful of lead, which is like a mini agnostic, timeline agnostic, litr use any period you want retro-style game. You basically get five guys, give them all keywords to reflect what *you* think they’d do on the tabletop, and roll some dice.
Your content is so great for my mental health. Just friendly tabletop games talk. Love it
I’m glad to hear that - mental health is really important and something that I think is overlooked in this hobby. Thanks for watching!
Something to remember about big game companies is that the bottom line isnt fun its money. GW, FF, etc make money on the miniatures, paints, etc. The rules are just a way for them to push their least sold miniatures back into the light.
Also talkign about miniature agnostic games, I based a bunch of lego minifigs on 25mm bases. Used them for war gaming, worked perfectly. I dont use them anymore but it was cool. Also if you are in need you can buy lego sets and use them as terrain and get miniatures too.
Rules can and do change from edition to edition. The vibe usually stays the same. If I'm going to paint up 100 minis for a wargame I'd better _LOVE_ the vibe.
100% agreed.
I'm also just not bothering with a wargame or it's miniatures if it has a shitty or uninteresting vibe to it.
Vibe is king.
I'd say with the proliferation of model agnostic games that allow players to create their own settings or use preexisting settings, finding the right rules is probably more important because that's what's going to keep players wanting to come back. You pick a game based on vibes, but the way it plays determines your enjoyment and therefore how long you're going to continue with it.
Right, but the point is that the vibes and the rules can be separate - you can love your Space Marines but use them in a different ruleset that you enjoy more than 40K, for example. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions The problem with that idea becomes apparent when you plop your Nurgle Marines across the table from a Star Wars droid army. 2 people can like a rule set but end up with different vibes. Some people won't like that. Tyranids and Space Marines will always fit. Halo minis vs Stormtroopers? Maybe not.
@@suburbansurvival8239 On the other hand, it doesn't matter if the vibes are right if you don't enjoy the mechanics of the game. Space Marines vs Tyranids may be cool, but no one is going to play out that scenario if it's a slog to do. Vibes get people in the door, but mechanics are what keep them playing.
Rules in fantasy games are like potions: they're confusing to make, they have strange effects, and players argue over who gets the last one.
One Page Rules is amazing especially as a Warhammer lore fan if you want to focus on timely matches and priority on storytelling over complicated rules. It also allows much more freedom between the different rulesets. You can play fleets, armies and skirmishes with largely comparable rules, even within the same storyline
When it comes to rules systems and wargamers, I'm always shocked when people wax poetic for an older edition of 40k, but when I suggest that you can still play that edition that treat me like the one talking crazy.
OPR allowed me and a buddy to answer the question: Who would win if Battletech and 40K got in a fight, battlemechs vs imperial knights. For now it's imperial knights, but the inner sphere is not beaten yet!
The only real obstacle to me playing is not having anyone to play with, regardless of minis or rules.
My current shoutout for mini-agnostic stuff is Warsurge.
Great system for people who like to have a lot of control over their armies rules and just making really fun and unique stuff. It’s essentially 5-7th Ed 40k inspired mechanics with just pages upon pages of special rules covering everything from psychological effects, to elemental strengths/weaknesses, to spells, buffs/debuffs and more.
Looks awesome! I'm going to investigate further. Thanks!
For me playing the games is a way to immerse myself in the world. Feeling the strengths of various factions and units helps to make the world come to life. Also to play a game in the universe feels like being in it.
Wooohooo learned a new word today : behoove=it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something. Thanks! And yes we all should try out more (indie) games. Great advice as always.
One Page Rules used to be my preferred version of 40k. Then I found Space Weirdos and a bunch of other light systems. I realized that I prefer less rules and more options across war bands. I still have all my 40k/Necromunda minis and those that came in the box games sold through Barnes and Noble.
My tabletop war game of choice has had relatively stable rules sense is was released 40 years ago.
Classic battletech rules can be crunchy, but can be streamlined. But the biggest thing I love about it is its stability.
also, don't forget those editions of 40k you loved, for example, you already have on your shelf! I love 3rd edition and would rather play this :)
CodeBlade is one of the best mini agnostic games that’s really worth a look - shortlisted for best new miniatures rules award at the UKGE this year! The game attracts people for its rules from beyond the cyberpunk fanbase.
one time i tired using GW minis in a D&D campaign and i LITERALLY DIED
do NOT attempt
posting this as a warning to anyone thinking about making this mistake
My favorite rules set is Infinity. To me it has the perfect granularity and really captures what I want in a game. It's a little too crunchy and time consuming right now though because I have a lot on my plate so I am currently looking at Blkout because it seems to have the same feel to the rules but at a much faster level. I'm waiting for one of the guys at my hobby shop to get his stuff for it so he can run a demo of it.
BattleDroids, or Original Battletech before clans... I loved the creation rules to make and battle test my builds. I was not huge into the lore, just loved the game mechanics and being able to create new big stompy robots and then seeing how they fared against my friends creations. I loved Car wars and Micro Armour. Star Fleet Battles was also a good time, even though its rules were redonkulus. Dream Pod 9 and its Mecha games were also fun for me. I just bought your DETH Wizards, and will be giving it a go most likely solo.. I am happy to see games looking at the solo players these days. I live way out in the boonies of Texas so I don't get much chance to game these days with others... so I am thankful for the solo rules many AGNOSTIC games provide.
Another good, thought-provoking video!
Our group is mostly an indie game group (plus Battletech Alpha Strike and Bolt Action). OPR, Weirdos games, Song of Blades and Heros, Pulp Alley to name a few. We also look at and review (for ourselves) probably 1 or 2 games a week on average. The current mantra for our "internal reviews" is "Neat setting, that we could incorporate into known existing rule sets".
When looking to buy (or have our friend Skip print for us) a new mini, one of the top criteria is: How many games will this miniature work in? Because we use multiple minis from multiple companies for multiple games.
Heavily laden opinions to follow:
I don't think I could name a "favorite". Bolt Action, Alpha Strike, Grim Dark Future (GDF) and GDF Firefight are at the top of my personal list. We have decided that the "perfect" game, for us, does not exist, but we keep looking.
Every game system has its pros and cons.
We use the categories of the "5 M's". I don't know who came up with this, but I learned it from Daron Patton.
Move, Missile, Melee, Magic, Morale.
For all of these rules sets, do we like how each of those work? How does Movement (including activation) work in this game?...and so on. We learn new systems in this context as well.
Thanks again for the video! Keep 'em coming!
With model design being what it is at this point in time, "good looking models" are now an expectation, but it's the rules that really keep my attention on a game.
Very much appreciated Uncle Adam. I really like how you are able to bring together so many different systems and help people broaden their horizon. It definitively has cost me some time tl break free from the "closed unsiverse"
Honestly...good point. And one that I have been thinking more and more about. I've been getting into things like Frostgrave, and looking forward to Deth Wizards, and the idea of just...making whatever miniatures I want or using random miniatures even outside of the lore feels pretty liberating. And after realizing I get a daunted and disinterested feeling every time I even GLANCE at the 40k rules, maybe something like One Page Rules is the better option.
I do admit, at least a PART of my loyalty lies in the fact that I am an employee of and dedicated to my LGS. But both Warhammer and Magic have shown more and more issues while other games look so much more fresh and well designed....it does make me think. But the money still comes more from those two major juggernauts, so I feel so weirdly obligated. That is also probably the reason I simply...focus elsewhere and do a lot of hobby in my free time, though...
I managed to find one box of Skaven Clanrats at my local GS, they are now painted for the D&D campaign I'm running. I'm also painting the Wayward Eight from Wild West Exodus to use for Space Station Zero.
The aggression you get when you suggest opr to a 40ker is insane.
I call it GW Stockholm syndrome
Up until 8 years ago, I'd never played modern day gaming (WW2). My whole group got into Bolt Action at that time when it was exploding as the "new" game to play, so I tried it out. Found too many holes in the game system and didn't give me the satisfaction of gaming WW2. Another friend introduce me to Chain of Command...well well well...this was a really nice set which captured the feel for squad/platoon tactics and love the unique game mechanics for the period. Needless to say during my initial adventure in BA, I really dig the Warlord Game miniatures which support their game. So to this day, I still buy their miniatures and some from other companies, but use them in my Chain of Command games. Another great video!
I was feeling so frustrated with ‘needing’ to paint an army for 40K. It was so much to paint, and felt stuck my throat rules. Finding GDF-Firefight was like a breath of fresh air. It was so freeing and really helped me realize that I can really do whatever I want with these minis. Want to kit bash and turn you First Born Sternguard into a Team with cool different weapons? Yes please. What to kit bash you Primaris Captain, Bladeguard, and give you Infiltrators chair swords? Go to town. I’ve found so much freedom and excitement for painting again by just realizing I can do whatever I want.
I've been playing miniature games since the 80's, so quite some time now, and in that time, I have just become jaded with how rules are. They swing wildly between oversimplified to too clunky, the happy medium between these two seems to be a rarity.
So, I've set myself a goal to design a set of Fantasy Rank & Flank rules that is simple enough to learn, but retains depth.
Currently I have all the core rules done just working on the units for the many fantasy races. After that, I have no idea how to make it available for people.
Here's an idea for a video: We hobbyists like to talk about miniature agnostic rulesets, but what about rules agnostic miniatures? An example could be someone like me with exclusively sci-fi minis and terrain who is interested in getting into fantasy, but not one specific ruleset.
There are many intriguing rulesets on offer: the new AoS Spearhead mode, Kings of War, Mordheim, Frostgrave, Rangers of Shadow Deep, Deth Wizards, all with different mechanics to explore and have fun with. Which miniatures/factions would be the most versatile to build and paint for all these different systems? Necromancers and zombies might fit the bill, but what else? Could the cool new Skaven models find use in all of these? Or the great-looking Gloomspite Gitz Vanguard box? Are regular Frostgrave humans the safest bet?
It's something I'm considering a lot at the moment, because I'd basically be starting from scratch and would like a lot of bang for my buck (and time) in terms of what miniatures to buy, build and paint. I thought it sounded just like a topic for you, so I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on this. Cheers!
I loved your last tip. I got fed up with how toxic and unfun 40k games was and stopped playing for a long time after 13 years. One year ago I remembered another miniature game that I used to play way back called malifaux. I introduced it to my friends and right now we have all stopped playing 40k and we are enjoying that new game for over a year.
I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in Malifaux with my local game stores and it's so great to see! It's such a wonderful, fun, and sadistic little game! I'm glad you're having fun with it, too!
@@vagabondprime1691 3rd edition made huge changes and is very beginner friendly. Right now in about a month we are going to make our first tournament!
Man, I hope this trend makes it to my neck of the woods, I love Malifaux but no one around me plays anymore despite me trying haha. Would love to see an uptick of it!
Over the last two days I've been getting over an emotional rollercoaster of unrelated issues, and one of the things that dragged me out of that hole was discovering mini-agnostic wargames with campaign play. I've been trawling for any free rulesets I can find since then, making notes about what I liked and what I didn't about each. Super interesting right now.
I got tired of the GW rules cycle after the end of 7th to start of 8th
Now I use a 40k inquisition warband, chaos cultists, and converted dark mechanicum models for Space Station Zero
I use Necromunda models for Five Parsecs from Home
I use Start Wars Legion models for Stargrave
I use Gloomspite Gitz for Hobgoblin
I use warcry and underworlds kits for Mordheim
I like the rules to be the same from when I start a project to the time I finish it. I do works slowly though
Sometimes i buy the miniatures because they are cool and don't care about the rules. (Crucible Guard in Warmachine)
Rules are most important thing, which is why I can't understand why 40k is so popular
Incumbency. It's a powerful force.
@@thomgizzizlook at this salty Stan trolling everyone who's engaging with the video. Go be happy and interact with folks who don't have issues with 40k rules.
Well some might say finding players is the most important, without that there is no game.
Not everyone prioritizes rules, particularly as in something like 40k its changed at lot over the editions.
sunk cost fallacy
I didn't grow up with 40K so its popularity is baffling to me. I really don't see the appeal on any level.
My very first wargaming group (1992) used Games Workshop’s Warhammer Fantasy rules with homemade paper shapes cut from custom, base-sized graph paper to represent models and units.
At different points in my life, i was a competitive player in a few systems BUT i 100% link success back to those days of paper models.
I think the key to it was that since we didn’t have model availability to hold us back we mostly all played a different faction like every week.
For a brand new player it was a mind opening experience.
As always great to listen to what you have to say and bring to the table of Miniature Games.
I got into Citadel (yes, I said Citadel - not Warhammer or 40k) because of the minis. When I tried gaming, I didn't really enjoy it. I realized I prefer table top RPGs. Those, by the way, are easily made miniature-agnostic, since the minis represent whatever you say you are doing. But I continue to build and paint units from both "OldHammer," and 40k, mostly using proxies that i 3d print. I enjoy the vibe, and build and paint however I like. So, I think you nailed this topic on the head.
Really liking your robot design and colours T shirt.
I've played and collected and painted GW stuff for so long and so many years that I was super into the sunk cost fallacy. Then I made the jump to Infinity (which I love, but is way too rules dense) after tinkering for a bit, I then moved into OPR. I haven't had much luck converting people to OPR out of the 40K group, but I've had a lot more fun playing. Now, I'm looking at more and more mini-agnostic games just to play cool stuff.
One aspect of certain people’s reluctance to try other, non big GW systems... The Friday night group at one of LGS is very much a competition focused crew. They view their weekly games as tournament prep and list testing opportunities. So these folks are heavily invested in 40k and/or AoS. Do they complain about the rules? All the time. Are they interested in trying other systems? Not at all. Part of the “problem” is that, for example, 40k is so complex and changes so often that I believe committed players just don’t want to, or just don’t have the mental resources available to absorb another system. I’ve certainly heard people say that keeping all the 40k interactions straight is tough enough without adding the confusion of assimilating another rule set.
Doesn’t sound like fun to me - sounds like work. Games should be fun. Thanks for watching!
Sounds eerily similar to the psychology of abusive relationships
Star Breach is a great skirmish game rule! I've been playing it since its beta test alongside the creator. It's a really quick and simple mechanic that works well at small scale firefights and you'll only need to worry about having 4-8 models on the table. You can even have big stompin' mechs, big monsters, and scary demons all playing on the same table. There are even 3-player and 4-player scenarios for big group games in the paid version of the rules.
It's such an obvious point, upon analysis, but one so easily overlooked - especially when the lore and the quality of minis are so hugely invested in. Well done for making it, though - I couldn't agree more. This is the engine of a game - it's essential that it works properly and delivers an experience worthy of the time and money hobbyists invest in it.
The Battlefield by Brent Spivey is one of my most favorite rules sets. It is tactical but very streamlined. Offers a bunch of options for force customization and does a great job of creating an ultra-modern/hard sci-fi "vibe".
Was playing 40k for some time, but was getting disappointed by the fact that I had to re-learn rule-changes each time when I'm playing, plus for most of time I was not allowed to use the minis that I wanted most - especially for Kill Team. Then I moved to OPR and suddenly I was able to bring my boys to the table for the first time. And I was able to play more games with it in a shorter period of time.
Currently painting some dwarf broforce to do some zombie slaying survival with them based on the OPR.
I'm enjoying your Deth wizard game! The push and pull of the necromantic energy being both hit point and magic points is really interesting. And I can use my GW minis without having to deal with the fact that I have to learn yet another new edition of AoS for no reason.
Currently getting into "The Silver Bayonet". I enjoyed Guerrilla Miniature Games Battle Reports on Mordheim and found Silver Bayonet on his channel as well. I remembered Peachy Tips
making a video about it. Checked it out and started to really get into it.
40k has great rules, that's why there have to be massive overhauls twice a year
Problem is that GW doesn’t see each edition on their own merits, and instead just craps out a new one instead of fixing what they have
@@anexistanthuman2435they recycle rules constantly and leave in rules that are terrible on purpose so it needs an update
GW knows their models and stuff is a one time thing. So they throw the rule books for this and that. Infinite profit.
I first started Warhammer Fantisy in highschool back in the 90's, I used old toys along with the models from the basic box set.
The biggest bit for me is pushing for older editions of Warhammer to be played. The later editions just haven't been up to snuff, but I can't seem to shake the "newest is best" mindset from my locals. Just going to have to keep at it and hope something sticks. Great video as always, always great to hear you break down other perspectives and options.
Have you considered trying Necromunda or 30k they have older style rulesets but are new enough for people to enjoy.
@@davidmesh5491 Oh no totally, already do, just would like to also see some Oldhammer in the works as well. Good shout though
Thanks for the OPR shoutout! I'm trying to grow my local OPR community. I've been teaching new players every week.
OPR is even better because you can create your own version of their armies using the custom army creator.
Oh, i have opinions. I absolutely fell in love with OPR Firefights the last year, because as someone who is mainly into painting small groups of units, "bring whatever" is really appealing. I bring Space Marines, you bring garden gnomes? Splendid! I can buy whatever range i enjoy by whatever company or artist and make it work.
And for crunchy rules, i love Battletech. It was my introduction into the whole nerdverse decades ago, and i love how miniscule details about every mech matter. That being said, it's so crunchy that i nowadays mostly play it over the free online client which will do the hundreds of dice rolls for me. Just this week i finished a battle within an evening that would've taken us multiple days on tabletop. That's why i think they're going in the right direction with the Alpha Strike rules, which is like a completely different ruleset for the same game that turns it into something resembling a skirmish game. Being able to finish a game in one session is really important to me.
Just played Xenos Rampant with w40k minis, cool AF as we both had lot's of fun.
I like OPR for the middling crunch and model freedom, which is great for me who like grabbing whatever I think is coolest and using whatever bits I like despite rules. It just feels nice, even if I never get to play because I live in a small town, but maybe I could look into finding or starting a group. Or doing solo games. I don't know, I've got options.
There was definitely a period of my life where I felt like games I played using official rules were somehow "official" in a sense, and that games I played in the same setting using other rulesets (OPR, in my case) were somehow more akin to fan fiction. It was just this purely emotional thing and I could never explain it to my friends, but there's a level where I feel like my little plastic regiments have histories, and for whatever reason, I could not incorporate the most incredible and dramatic OPR games into that history even though we were playing with the same minis and the same setting. One day, I think I just sort of woke up and felt like it was silly to have that arbitrary box around my fun, but I do sometimes wonder if a lot of 40k players have similar feelings.
Zone Raiders and Full Spectrum Dominance are my two go to games for amazing games. I love the cyberpunk, skirmish level combat that Zone Raiders has. The movement is second to none in my opinion, with your figures running and grappling around the battlefield like a cyber ninja. FSD is the flip side of that though. More 2D, but the gameplay is fast, small footprint, and more tactical since you have only a limited number of activations, so planning is important otherwise key aspects of your force may sit idle.
And yes ive used miniatures from mixed manufacturers in a lot of miniature agnostic games.
I keep telling people that there's a difference between being for everyone and welcoming everyone. You can welcome everyone you want but you can't make a single thing that's one size fits all.
I really enjoy the Oldhammered channel for their battle reports, they play indie games but use whatever minis fit with the games setting often old GW minis.
Battletech became my game cuz the rules really work for me.
Thank you for this reminder. It's hard to remember that everyone is in a different place and their opinions, no matter how loud or informed or echoed, don't have to be YOUR be-all-end-all.
Looking foward to finally getting some minis on the table for Space Station Zero and living out some Alternate Kill Team scenarios :)
Endorse Ash's batreps. He has saved me wasting a whole host of cash on rules that are unlikely to hit my dopamine centre.
Another aspect to note is that you, your environment and your priorities will change over time and thus the rulesets you use may also change. Don't forget scale and the benefits of being able to reuse scenery elements. I've had mates who had a permanent 8x4 board, great for vehicle combat, mass rank and flank and can be left up over night for a large weekend battles. In recent times I'm stuck with a 6x3 dining room table that needs to be used daily. Quick setup and reset is now more important than deep and crunchy. 3x3 skirmish is where I am at most of the time these days.
However, you need to find rulesets that you can identify with, no different to finding a partner, a sport or an employer. And it's great that we are all different and value different things. There are some great potential rulesets in the US that are cost prohibitive to get in the UK. I know the issue is reciprocated with UK stuff being expensive in the US. I think you and Vince have done a great job in allowing us in the UK to get your rulesets printed for a small postage premium.
So in line with we don't praise the systems we love, these are the rulesets I currently use and am fond of, in no particular order. An eclectic mix of eras based on 40 years of collecting miniatures and having the ability to wargame with whatever my guest(s) want to play. I've tried keeping at 28mm to be able to reuse tabletop scenery.
28mm
Five Parsces from Home
Five Leagues from the Borderland
Mantic Deadzone
John Lambshead One Hour Skirmish
Neil Thomas One Hour Wargames
7TV
The Pikemens Lament
Fear and Faith
Mutants and Death Ray Guns
Other scales
Mantic Kings of War Armada
Void Admiral
Have fun and thanks for another great thought provoking video.
Ash's battle reports for Frostgrave back in 2015 were the catalyst for my gaming group and I trying out the system. We've been hardcore fans ever since.
Talking about miniature agnostic rules gave me a flashback to Vor: The Maelstrom. A '40k killer' from 1999 put out by FASA (the original creators of Battletech for all those youngsters that need to get off my lawn). I loved that game, the rules were pretty simple (at least compared to 40k 3rd Edition), the lore was cool and unique (Earth is on the brink of a 3rd world war when it gets sucked into a possibly sentient and malevolent pocket dimension full of similarly trapped aliens), it had its own line of cool models (many of which I still own) and best of all? The core rule book included rules for creating your own faction, so I could play my Neo-Soviets against my next-door neighbor's Space Marines. Sadly, as FASA went so did VOR and when FASA closed shop in 2001 so did VOR. I remember someone tried to bring it back on kick-starter but it fell through which isn't surprising given the original only had a couple years in the world (some games... *holds back tears*... die too young).
Which now that I think about it is pretty unique; don't think I've ever come across another game that had official units/models AND rules for creating your own armies from scratch.
🤔
A short while back I took a quick peek at Wargamevault and saw Deth Wizards front and center, thought it looked interesting but wasn't necessarily the "vibe" I was going for at first glance. Maybe a day or two later I watched and re-watched a video on it from ULC Battle Reports as a first try/first impression and he sold me.
Currently going to use some of the OPR Mummified Undead I have and a generous fistful of BriteMini's undead as well as (living) Arabian-style minis for heroes, and scrounging or printing more terrain to complete the desert theme. Having a difficult time finding spirit-type minis I want to use.
Conclusion: I agree rules are more important than vibes, with exceptions.
and again to shout out ULC Battle Reports.
40k was my first TTG way back when 3rd ed came out, I stopped playing right as 5th edition came out. Sold all my armies then. Now I own a Votann army because Squats, played one game of 9th and maybe three so far of 10th. Love the IP and always will. Can't say the same for the actual game. Good thing about 40k is you can always find a player no matter what LGS you walk into.
I'm getting into Necromunda rn. It's a little crunchy, my first few games have been boring as I keep needing to check the massive rulebook for clarification. I get the impression that it'll be insane fun once I'm confident with the rules; I see why people heavily encourage you to find someone to teach you rather then attempt to get into it yourself. One thing that I know will make it all worth it is Scatter Templates. I have zero idea why these haven't been added back into 40k. They're so much fun.
I definitely agree with this like 90%, but I also feel like the game FEEL really turns people away from using alternate rules for their favourite settings. Personally I do enjoy 10th edition 40K and honestly most of the games I’ve played, but I think you can’t really ignore the fact that a space marine won’t feel like a space marine in a game with no space marines, and also that some people are frustrated with the feel of stuff like that already within their own game where there isn’t even a better alternative
We are a couple of old blokes who still play W40k 8th edition. Plus house-rules to better reflect the fluff. You might even say it’s more like 2nd edition, since I end up being something of a GM for our tabletop stories.
You tell me what I already know. But it's just nice to listen to your ramblings :)
I feel like i'm branching out in my table top gaming, both rpgs and war games. I'm really enjoying DCC and Grimdark Firefight
I'll sing OPR's praises over and over again - I met some of their team at UKGE, and even the people were great! (Looking to get into Space station Zero soon too).
We just use 40k models and lore in OPR's Firefight (Killteam) ruleset. Our group only meets ~4 times a year, so having to wade through all the GW expense of updating rulesets etc is just not viable. It's much more accessible, whilst actually being massively tactical given the simpler ruleset.
Lastly - OPR seem to have a good vibe to their rules if that makes sense. The way they update things in seemingly small incremental changes - seems to be a good philosophy. In our group at least, we can come back 4 months later, check our previous army list on their free army builder, and nothing has changed s drastically that it's completely unviable to play a fun game.
No "Pa-chow" this time around, but offset by the "behoove". Good subject and presentation, as always, Mr. Loper!
It's a very important message... well, about as 'important' as anything related to toys and games is gonna get.
Once you've got a set of minis you like... then you should feel free to use them in whatever settings you like using whatever rules you prefer. Play '40K' with Ganesha's Mutants and Death Ray Guns, or play '40K' with THW's 5150, or play '40K' with OPR's GDF. You do not have to toe the company line and will probably be happier if you don't.
Stopping in to tickle the algo and say that I've been playing Deth Wizards with my 10y/o daughter using a mix of minis from Kingdom Death, Castle Ravenloft board game, Descent Journeys in the Dark 1st edition and a few other miscelanous minis I have and we've been having an absolute blast!
Regarding rules; the rules are why I love Kill Team and Warcry but will never make the leap to "full" 40k.
I didn't think OPR could work as well as it did. Me and my now playing buddy had so many different games we decided to try opr with primaris and mini marines but also dust 49 walkers and the mechanicus dune walker.
So lot's of fun, so much fun !
When 10 40k wasn't much fun for me against alpha strikers...
So rules are gold but a good player if invaluable ❤❤❤❤❤
I definitely get this particularly for skirmish games. I used to love the art for kill team and necromunda but I could never force myself to play. I just completely bounced off the rules, so I avoided skirmish games for a long time. But lately I’ve tried blackout and really liked it so it’s convinced me to give other skirmish systems a shot. I’m putting together a game to try firefight we’re gonna see how it goes.
Currently trying to mash up some Legions Imperialis with Advanced Squad Leader for solo play just because i really like how the ASL scenarios are designed. It also lets me use my HeroScape tiles.
I'm currently enjoying Deth Wizards, using a mix of Warmachine (Cryx) and various other minis. It's giving me incentive to get more of my undead painted, and I'm working on more 3D terrain that I can use with Deth Wizards as well as Warmachine and D&D. It's a good time.
I like:
Star Breach for the initiative system and army lists.
Space Weirdos for the sandbox vibe and solo play.
Forbidden Psalm family for small model counts and appeal for my d20 rpg friends.
Tobel28 and other indie 28 games for quick teaching.
I'm literally modifying Warfleets (from opr) ...one of the BEST rulesets for space/navel combat and making it work for BattleTech. Which also means getting to smash together Mechs with OPRs (superior fluff wise) take on space marines and cause.
Unsurprisingly, its not hard to get people excited about it and willing to give it a whirl.
People LIKE new things.
I've been making this argument about Roleplaying Games lately as well. There was a video the other day I was watching where they literally stated "art is the most important thing in an rpg" and I started yelling at my screen. (they were reviewing Wildsea, which is beautiful)
I used a trencher from war machine to represent my traitor guardsman with a launcher, it took everyone the entire game to notice.