The most determined skater I have seen! Works hard!! I recognise her value! her jumps are technicle very very correct! It's frustrating for me and specially for her to can't proove it in competition often, but 1999 worlds LP, 2000 European LP, 2000 World SP, 2001 world LP, 2000 NHK LP, 2000 Sparkassen Cup are good examples to shut up her critics!
Yes, she had the option of sl, circular or serpentine. And it's supposed to utilize the full ice surface. Sometimes that didn't happen and in '99 it was only a .1 deduction.
I LOVE her combination spin at the end with her arms clasp, while changing positions. However, she should have done her lutz combination in this (and all) of her LP's.
I am amazed that people think that this was a weak period of ladies figure skating. I strongly disagree. This was the best era. Look at where we are now, I don't care anything about the ladies/girls that are competing nowadays. I am much more interested in men's figure skating these days. I loved the women's 90's and the early 2000's, and Maria is probably my fave skater ever. The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any kind at worlds/olympics.
Yeah, that's very fair. The most important part of my opinion (aside from Kwan absolutely deserving to win Gold) is that Vanessa should have been 2nd in the LP. I can see reasoning in not actually placing her 2nd overall, even if I personally think her LP was strong enough to merit it.
A really beautiful performance.. and the triple jumps she did land here were really gorgeous, not stiff-kneed and shaky as they tended to be. Too bad about the errors on the two salchows, would've really liked to see her repeat her title.
I almost agree with your placings. These would be mine though. Michelle- 3rd SP, 1st LP- 2.5 points, 1st overall Maria- 1st SP, 3rd LP- 3.5 points, 2nd overall Vanessa- 4th SP, 2nd LP- 4.0 points, 3rd overall Irina- 2nd SP, 4th LP- 5.0 points, 4th overall I put Maria 3rd in the LP over Irina since the 2nd mark is the tiebreaker and even though she didnt have a good skate here her artistry is still much better than her teammate.
If she had placed 2nd in the free skate she still would've won the title since Kwan was 3rd in the short program, but since she was 3rd in the free skate behind Kwan and Slutskaya, Butyrskaya fell to third. It was a 5-4 split with the judges between her and Vanessa Gusmeroli for 3rd place in the free skate, but I think it was correct for Butyrskaya to have placed 3rd over Gusmeroli.
I totally agree. Michele is a good skater, of course she is, but usually she based on her main opponents' failures on the final nights. The following year the very same happened - she won only because Slutskaya's free skate was a bit shaky whereas Butyrskaya was too far down after the short. Butyrskaya's short in Nice should have been awarded one 6.0 at least for the second mark!
@Karosanyo Funny. I feel the exact opposite. Even if Kwan was clean I always thought that Maria and Irina should have beaten her... And...Maria and Irina had to be clean...because the judges were NOT ready to gift them the title. The judges always favoured Kwan...as she was American and brought the dollars with her...
Overall, Michelle has a better line, edge quality, and speed over Maria. In addition, her spirals were subpar at best. Her nerves were also a major factor- at the 2002 Olympics, you could even see her shaking nervously while she was performing her short program. So sad. Nonetheless, this Swan Lake performance was really nice- one of her better programs content-wise.
@WickedProductions100 either way they certainly didnt manipulate the marks to help Kwan win. By the marks they gave Kwan they were clearly wanting Maria and Irina to go 1-2 if they skated well (or if just Irina skated well with Maria's shortprogram result). Irina's marks were MUCH higher than Maria's, and she in fact almost beat Michelle in the long program to win the gold outright. So they just felt, rightly or wrongly, Irinas skate was much better than Marias even though both had mistakes.
no I do not, I say most are boring, when did I say I hate them?? don´t put words in my mouth if you don´t know;) ps: I like Kwan and Yu Na Kim very much, specially Yu Na Kim(the next Olympic Champion:)), and the ratings in fs have decreased in the past few years, I know for sure that FS is not even showed anymore in latinamerica....
@Karosanyo In a way I find it unappropriate to discuss this Kwan issue here on this Butyrskaya vid. So, Karosanyo, check out my comments on Kwan's 1999 Worlds SP. I had some strong issues about that performance, and you will probably not like them. But at least there we could have a Kwan-discussion.
If this was judged on code of points the results would be right technically. This is how the points would have been not including grade of execution or spins or steps just jumps (including the 1.1 factored bonus for jumps after the halfway point) Michelle would have 40.33 points full credit for all jumps. Slutskaya would have 36.17 points. She ended up doing 8 jumping passes. The maximum allowed is 7. Since she only did a 2 salchow and then put in the 3 salchow combo 2 loop then she would have got 0 points for the last jump the 3 toeloop which is the 8th jumping pass. Butyrskaya would have got 35.06 points. On the 3 Toeloop 1/2 loop 3 Salchow>> she would have got a downgrade >> on the triple salchow. None of these numbers include the goe plus or minus. Butyrskaya would be even lower and slutskaya would be a bit lower. Kwan would have lost a bit on both lutzes as well because they were flutes. Not sure if anyone besides Butyrskaya would have under-rotated or had any jumps downgraded. Almost everyone's spins and steps would be base value or level 1 by today's standard. So imho the results would be the same Today.
Maria should have defended her title. She should have definitely beaten Irina in the long program which would have been enough for her to hold 1st overall. She was robbed of her 2nd world title by Irina's overscored long program.
Maria's SP wasn't considerably better than the other 3 women's, IMO. She deserved 1st in that segment but it wasn't a big lead. The ranking system of 6.0 was dumb, but even if you do rank the SP's and LP's: Michelle - 2nd SP, 1st LP ---> 2 points, 1st overall Vanessa - 4th SP, 2nd LP ---> 4 points, 2nd overall Irina - 3rd SP, 3rd LP ---> 4.5 points, 3rd overall Maria - 1st SP, 4th LP ---> 4.5 points, 4th overall Qualifying round carries no weight in my mind. It was removed for a good reason.
This is a very tough call for me, b/c Kwan clearly deserved to win the title, but I also felt that Maria's program was well above Irina's free skate. Who knows what I would have done. I will never understand how Irina got 2 5.9's for artistic merit; I really like Irina, but her free at 2000 Worlds was a disaster, with virtually no choreography. The telegraphed jumps rivaled Bonaly. Maria's program was much more beautifully constructed and expressed.
@WickedProductions100 I think your assessment of the judges thought process is very wrong. First of all I dont think they ever were wanting Kwan to win. The marks they gave her were very low for the performance. Irina and Maria both just did so poorly they had no choice. They certainly wouldnt go out of their way to help her win. Secondly this wasnt a good skatel, and in the judges eyes it was clearly beaten by Irina. Irina was closer to beating Kwan in the LP than Maria was Irina.
no I don´t think so. that is the way it is for me and I don´t see any problem with it, I prefer Russians over any other skaters and I´ll always prefer the Russian style over the rest. and what does my nickname has to do with it??
@Karosanyo Hmmm... when you mention all those triples, you just included all the Flutzes (a 0.2-0.3 deduction at the time - which never happened with Kwan). IMO, Kwan didn't have the technique at all. But don't get me wrong, I did enjoy Kwan's artistry, but the technique - nah. And I actually blame her coach for that. F Carroll taught her the cheap way out. Sure, he got the job done, and got the medals, but it was never good skating. And as I said before, we have to agree on disagreeing.
A great many things have existed in history. Slavery, for example. That doesn't make it correct. The Olympics during this time period did not have a qualifying round. It should not have existed at Worlds and for me it is a worthless thing when looking at the Championships. Skaters purposefully would water down their programs/performances in qualifying in order to save for the REAL long program. That's not real competition. Vanessa was a good skater. She had excellent artistry.
i always likened Maria Butryskaya and Sarah Hughes skating to each other. they have the jumps and spins, etc. but they somehow seem too stiff and gawky to really make it look good. no offense, they just are the ones who get lucky and win when everyone else skates poorly. i like them, and feel sorry (well, sarah did win olympic gold so not TOO sorry, but it was a stroke of luck) no longevity. kinda awkward looking.
I guess you cant stand someone telling you the truth, especialy when it is something not in favor of your beloved Kwan. quirotmutolafan is exactly right. Irina had some major mistakes, only 6 triples and no triple-triple and still nearly beat Michelle. If Irina had done a 7th triples and even 1 triple-triple Michelle had no chance. A clean Maria would have also easily beaten Michelle like she did in the short. The judges did not give Michelle the marks she did planning to put her in first.
for me they are, do you have a proble with that?? wtaching the Americans(exept Alissa), Asians and other europeans is boring...Figure Skating without Russia its like a football championships without Brazil....boring....look at how people is not interested in figure skating since the Russians are gone
I did not find Vanessa had "excellent artistry". Yes I will admit her Legends of Fall program was a very nice program but unfortunately she was a very stiff and jerky skater, and her basic skating wasnt the best. Dick Button like I said even though she was overmarked at these Worlds and should have finished 5th behind Sarah Hughes, and Dick knows more about figure skating than either of us I would imagine.
@Karosanyo Irina has better jumps, spins, and speed than Kwan. Her footwork is atleast on par. So you are wrong that all Irina can do better is jumps. Of course no reasoning with a blind Kwan fanatic.
Sorry but just removing the qualifying round just because you dont like it is stupid. It existed, that is just the way it is. Would you also remove figures from the 70s and 80s and make results based on that since you didnt like that they were there too, LOL! Anyway Vanessa just isnt that good a skater. Her one world bronze was a fluke. I would never place her over any of those other 3 if they skated even decently. Dick Button felt she was overmarked and didnt even deserve to beat Hughes.
![[HD] Tonya Harding - 1994 Lillehammer Olympic - Free Skating](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/63flkf3S1bE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[HD] Tonya Harding - 1994 Lillehammer Olympic - Free Skating](/img/tr.png)
You'd be hard pressed to find a triple lutz as beautiful as the one in this program!
Without the mistakes, I would've put this beautiful program ahead of Slutskaya for the Silver. I think she does a great Swan Lake!
The most determined skater I have seen!
Works hard!! I recognise her value! her jumps are technicle very very correct! It's frustrating for me and specially for her to can't proove it in competition often, but 1999 worlds LP, 2000 European LP, 2000 World SP, 2001 world LP, 2000 NHK LP, 2000 Sparkassen Cup are good examples to shut up her critics!
@viksa83: Just for the record, this is a Canadian broadcast, NOT American, so for once we can't be blamed for something.
Maria won the short program and clearly deserved to win the short progarm so even if she was 4th in the long she wouldnt have been 4th overall.
Yes, she had the option of sl, circular or serpentine. And it's supposed to utilize the full ice surface. Sometimes that didn't happen and in '99 it was only a .1 deduction.
At the 1993 Worlds Nancy Kerrigan was 1st after the short program and fell all the way to 5th!
I LOVE her combination spin at the end with her arms clasp, while changing positions. However, she should have done her lutz combination in this (and all) of her LP's.
I am amazed that people think that this was a weak period of ladies figure skating. I strongly disagree. This was the best era. Look at where we are now, I don't care anything about the ladies/girls that are competing nowadays. I am much more interested in men's figure skating these days.
I loved the women's 90's and the early 2000's, and Maria is probably my fave skater ever. The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any kind at worlds/olympics.
Yeah, that's very fair. The most important part of my opinion (aside from Kwan absolutely deserving to win Gold) is that Vanessa should have been 2nd in the LP. I can see reasoning in not actually placing her 2nd overall, even if I personally think her LP was strong enough to merit it.
A really beautiful performance.. and the triple jumps she did land here were really gorgeous, not stiff-kneed and shaky as they tended to be. Too bad about the errors on the two salchows, would've really liked to see her repeat her title.
I almost agree with your placings. These would be mine though.
Michelle- 3rd SP, 1st LP- 2.5 points, 1st overall
Maria- 1st SP, 3rd LP- 3.5 points, 2nd overall
Vanessa- 4th SP, 2nd LP- 4.0 points, 3rd overall
Irina- 2nd SP, 4th LP- 5.0 points, 4th overall
I put Maria 3rd in the LP over Irina since the 2nd mark is the tiebreaker and even though she didnt have a good skate here her artistry is still much better than her teammate.
If she had placed 2nd in the free skate she still would've won the title since Kwan was 3rd in the short program, but since she was 3rd in the free skate behind Kwan and Slutskaya, Butyrskaya fell to third. It was a 5-4 split with the judges between her and Vanessa Gusmeroli for 3rd place in the free skate, but I think it was correct for Butyrskaya to have placed 3rd over Gusmeroli.
I totally agree. Michele is a good skater, of course she is, but usually she based on her main opponents' failures on the final nights. The following year the very same happened - she won only because Slutskaya's free skate was a bit shaky whereas Butyrskaya was too far down after the short.
Butyrskaya's short in Nice should have been awarded one 6.0 at least for the second mark!
feathers...
1. Michelle Kwan
2. Vanessa Gusmeroli
3. Irina Slutskaya
4. Maria Butyrskaya
Should have been the placements.
@Karosanyo Funny. I feel the exact opposite. Even if Kwan was clean I always thought that Maria and Irina should have beaten her...
And...Maria and Irina had to be clean...because the judges were NOT ready to gift them the title. The judges always favoured Kwan...as she was American and brought the dollars with her...
Overall, Michelle has a better line, edge quality, and speed over Maria. In addition, her spirals were subpar at best. Her nerves were also a major factor- at the 2002 Olympics, you could even see her shaking nervously while she was performing her short program. So sad.
Nonetheless, this Swan Lake performance was really nice- one of her better programs content-wise.
@WickedProductions100 either way they certainly didnt manipulate the marks to help Kwan win. By the marks they gave Kwan they were clearly wanting Maria and Irina to go 1-2 if they skated well (or if just Irina skated well with Maria's shortprogram result). Irina's marks were MUCH higher than Maria's, and she in fact almost beat Michelle in the long program to win the gold outright. So they just felt, rightly or wrongly, Irinas skate was much better than Marias even though both had mistakes.
no I do not, I say most are boring, when did I say I hate them??
don´t put words in my mouth if you don´t know;)
ps: I like Kwan and Yu Na Kim very much, specially Yu Na Kim(the next Olympic Champion:)),
and the ratings in fs have decreased in the past few years, I know for sure that FS is not even showed anymore in latinamerica....
@Karosanyo In a way I find it unappropriate to discuss this Kwan issue here on this Butyrskaya vid. So, Karosanyo, check out my comments on Kwan's 1999 Worlds SP. I had some strong issues about that performance, and you will probably not like them. But at least there we could have a Kwan-discussion.
Good for Dick. He wouldn't have said that if Sarah Hughes was the French skater and Gusmeroli was the American.
If this was judged on code of points the results would be right technically. This is how the points would have been not including grade of execution or spins or steps just jumps (including the 1.1 factored bonus for jumps after the halfway point) Michelle would have 40.33 points full credit for all jumps. Slutskaya would have 36.17 points. She ended up doing 8 jumping passes. The maximum allowed is 7. Since she only did a 2 salchow and then put in the 3 salchow combo 2 loop then she would have got 0 points for the last jump the 3 toeloop which is the 8th jumping pass. Butyrskaya would have got 35.06 points. On the 3 Toeloop 1/2 loop 3 Salchow>> she would have got a downgrade >> on the triple salchow. None of these numbers include the goe plus or minus. Butyrskaya would be even lower and slutskaya would be a bit lower. Kwan would have lost a bit on both lutzes as well because they were flutes. Not sure if anyone besides Butyrskaya would have under-rotated or had any jumps downgraded. Almost everyone's spins and steps would be base value or level 1 by today's standard. So imho the results would be the same Today.
Maria should have defended her title. She should have definitely beaten Irina in the long program which would have been enough for her to hold 1st overall. She was robbed of her 2nd world title by Irina's overscored long program.
Russian skaters are the best
@Karosanyo OK, you obviously have a strong opinion about this, So do I. I guess we just have to agree on disagreeing on this subject.
Can anyone who knows the current point system judge this fairly compared to Slutskaya and Kwan. I get a feeling this would have won overall...
Maria's SP wasn't considerably better than the other 3 women's, IMO. She deserved 1st in that segment but it wasn't a big lead.
The ranking system of 6.0 was dumb, but even if you do rank the SP's and LP's:
Michelle - 2nd SP, 1st LP ---> 2 points, 1st overall
Vanessa - 4th SP, 2nd LP ---> 4 points, 2nd overall
Irina - 3rd SP, 3rd LP ---> 4.5 points, 3rd overall
Maria - 1st SP, 4th LP ---> 4.5 points, 4th overall
Qualifying round carries no weight in my mind. It was removed for a good reason.
I'm guessing a footwork sequence was not demanded yet?
This is a very tough call for me, b/c Kwan clearly deserved to win the title, but I also felt that Maria's program was well above Irina's free skate. Who knows what I would have done. I will never understand how Irina got 2 5.9's for artistic merit; I really like Irina, but her free at 2000 Worlds was a disaster, with virtually no choreography. The telegraphed jumps rivaled Bonaly. Maria's program was much more beautifully constructed and expressed.
Wow... ditto with all you said... she is incredibly stiff . I never understand why people refer to her as elegant?
@WickedProductions100 I think your assessment of the judges thought process is very wrong. First of all I dont think they ever were wanting Kwan to win. The marks they gave her were very low for the performance. Irina and Maria both just did so poorly they had no choice. They certainly wouldnt go out of their way to help her win. Secondly this wasnt a good skatel, and in the judges eyes it was clearly beaten by Irina. Irina was closer to beating Kwan in the LP than Maria was Irina.
no I don´t think so.
that is the way it is for me and I don´t see any problem with it, I prefer Russians over any other skaters and I´ll always prefer the Russian style over the rest.
and what does my nickname has to do with it??
@Karosanyo Hmmm... when you mention all those triples, you just included all the Flutzes (a 0.2-0.3 deduction at the time - which never happened with Kwan).
IMO, Kwan didn't have the technique at all. But don't get me wrong, I did enjoy Kwan's artistry, but the technique - nah. And I actually blame her coach for that. F Carroll taught her the cheap way out. Sure, he got the job done, and got the medals, but it was never good skating.
And as I said before, we have to agree on disagreeing.
This was a mess. No combinations and the program was slow.
A great many things have existed in history. Slavery, for example. That doesn't make it correct.
The Olympics during this time period did not have a qualifying round. It should not have existed at Worlds and for me it is a worthless thing when looking at the Championships. Skaters purposefully would water down their programs/performances in qualifying in order to save for the REAL long program. That's not real competition.
Vanessa was a good skater. She had excellent artistry.
You fool. (full).
i always likened Maria Butryskaya and Sarah Hughes skating to each other. they have the jumps and spins, etc. but they somehow seem too stiff and gawky to really make it look good. no offense, they just are the ones who get lucky and win when everyone else skates poorly. i like them, and feel sorry (well, sarah did win olympic gold so not TOO sorry, but it was a stroke of luck) no longevity. kinda awkward looking.
I guess you cant stand someone telling you the truth, especialy when it is something not in favor of your beloved Kwan. quirotmutolafan is exactly right. Irina had some major mistakes, only 6 triples and no triple-triple and still nearly beat Michelle. If Irina had done a 7th triples and even 1 triple-triple Michelle had no chance. A clean Maria would have also easily beaten Michelle like she did in the short. The judges did not give Michelle the marks she did planning to put her in first.
for me they are, do you have a proble with that??
wtaching the Americans(exept Alissa), Asians and other europeans is boring...Figure Skating without Russia its like a football championships without Brazil....boring....look at how people is not interested in figure skating since the Russians are gone
I did not find Vanessa had "excellent artistry". Yes I will admit her Legends of Fall program was a very nice program but unfortunately she was a very stiff and jerky skater, and her basic skating wasnt the best. Dick Button like I said even though she was overmarked at these Worlds and should have finished 5th behind Sarah Hughes, and Dick knows more about figure skating than either of us I would imagine.
@Karosanyo Irina has better jumps, spins, and speed than Kwan. Her footwork is atleast on par. So you are wrong that all Irina can do better is jumps. Of course no reasoning with a blind Kwan fanatic.
Sorry but just removing the qualifying round just because you dont like it is stupid. It existed, that is just the way it is. Would you also remove figures from the 70s and 80s and make results based on that since you didnt like that they were there too, LOL!
Anyway Vanessa just isnt that good a skater. Her one world bronze was a fluke. I would never place her over any of those other 3 if they skated even decently. Dick Button felt she was overmarked and didnt even deserve to beat Hughes.
not in lady's figure skating