Before even diving into the video, I had no idea there was large discourse around Jacob. Figured he’s just good at what he does and people acknowledge it.
The Album of the Year thing caused a ton of controversy and was the first time a lot of people heard of him, so they think he's an industry plant. And that 4th Djesse doesn't help dissipate that. I think that boils down what all the backlash is about.
I hate him and am really sick of him popping up on my yt feed. I'd be hard pressed to find cringier music than his tbh. I watched this vid in good faith, but I will never understand why anybody would elect to listen to his music. Different strokes, I guess.
I also didn't see the huge discourse, I'm an amateur musician (or "musician") and what I've been thinking lately is: he is incredibly talented and has put a lot of work into his knowledge and skillset, he is an awesome musician and entertainer, and he also is inspiring to try and learn new stuff but... he is not a good artist. He has a writer's cred on one great song (Good Days by SZA) and then his catalogue is really unimpressive, lacks emotional depth and has a lot of bad ideas in it. Nothing really to create a fuss about.
@@ArtificialFertilizer calling it discourse is giving it too much credit imo. It’s mostly a bunch of people who have literally never heard of him prior to the Grammy nom expressing their uninformed opinions about him on Reddit and on UA-cam comments. I don’t really jive with his music either but it really sucks that disliking his music means you’re in their camp…
to me it depends on the person we are talking about, like there are some musicians that have developed a HUGE persona over the years, but jacob as much as we move him around, as much as you put him on the pedestal is ....just a dude! The feeling of disconnection is just the feeling one have when we identify the finished product with the creator. Now with someone like jacob the finished product... is welll ...very big, but that doesnt mean that the project had its up and its downs, that at the end is just a guy who gets up, eats is breakfast, takes a sh1t and start composing, doesnt like what he made, struggles few hours with a block, likes what he makes , and then comes back and think that all that is not the good and starts over. Seems similar, I have just described 99% of creatives process and at the end of the day yeah.... its just a dude who's really passionate, and to make what he wants he needed all this theory and stuff. so...yeah
@@tasdude3227 No. You should remember any given person is in fact a person, and going "uh they have a persona, so I'm not going to think of them as a fellow human being" is absolutely batshit. Get help.
I think a huge reason why Jacob Collier is getting all this backlash is a reason that isn't even directly his fault, and it's not even in the music itself. Media outlets are putting him on a pedestal as this musical genius and treating him like an artistic god, so when some people hear that and then find they don't like his music, its falling from a great height so to speak. As a musical artist, hearing that he was one of "the best musicians alive" made me compare him to myself and my music where I don't use a lot of fancy music theory. The headlines about him made me think "Well he uses complex music theory I don't know and everyone's saying he's so good, my stuff might not be able to compare", so when I listened to Djesse V4 I thought "Really? This is the music the 'best musician alive' is making? It's pretty bad". Like you said in the video, artists should be treated as human beings, but even when he directly tells the interviewers "I'm a flawed person, I don't like being called a genius," they still title the video "THE MOZART OF GEN Z". Unrelated but he made a free plugin for DAWs where you can play the audience choir thing he does at shows. I might not like his music all that much but it's an amazing choir plugin.
It also emboldens an attitude that songs need a certain application of musical theory to be viable and valid. This argument often refuses to provide cultural understanding of a genre any merit, and people who belong to those cultures are rightfully mad. People use Jacob as a kind of punching bag because he was touted as the 'face of music theory'. Like saying "Those Punk rockers only use four simple chords and scream!" when the culture of punk is rooted in those very things.
@@sussvarman it's even more disappointing when he dips his toes in2 so many genres & i don't know if his listeners would bother 2 check out those styles after they hear them in jacob songs
Media constantly try to make fake generational fueds to get more clicks. It's the same when they started calling bands/songs "millennial pop", when the music that media define with that term is usually neither produced or listened by millennials.
@@hansmemling2311 In fairness, that's true of most popular artists or even pop-cultural entities in general, that every comment section has rabid noisy sycophants in it amongst whatever other folks also like the stuff.
Well people shouldn't hate him for whatever music he makes, you can hate his music (I sure do, its shit) but he makes it because he loves music i'm assuming, anybody is allowed to make music no matter the quality.
nah i understand the hate kinda. like u cant force me to believe its good when these people are saying its undeniably good. or that hes a genius. it annoys me that people think they know or have good music when they know all this music theory when it doesnt sound good. idk i do sound like a hater. its just anoying
@@Victor-oy8bjbut for someone who’s a learner do u think its a good idea to like listen to his advice on music theory and learn theory from him cuz he seems like a good teacher? Good teachers can make bad music no?
@@buunyyhopp i dont watch too much jacob collier. but yeah from what i see, he seems knows a lot of music theory and can teach it well. thats what hes known for. im no expert tho i never studied music or made advanced music. from how i understand music theory, every song uses music theory. but a lot of times, i think majority of artists aren't even conscious of it, it just sounds good to them. but also i think most artists know what notes and scales are for playing instruemnts. then they just choose what they like.
Just saw him live and found it very refreshing to see an artist output a luminous, joyous and colourful show performed by...humans who work on their craft. It was also a hard to pin crossover of musical styles delivered with real connection and respect to a crowd that was greatfu and delighted. Totally worth it. Thousands of people singing together just because it feels good, well, feels good. Yeah the world sucks but seing someone with so much talent SMILE and actually doing something positive with his talent gives me hope in humankind. Hey if you don't like the goody-too-shoes vibe, well there's plenty of dark and blasé and discouraging stuff out there, take your pick. Thank you Jacob!
ive seen him live 2 times and will see him anytime he finds himself in my city. Those concerts are some of my favorite memories because on top of being a mega fan of his work, I go to the concerts alone. As an introverted person, it makes me proud that i chose to go to those shows all alone and still danced and sang my heart out surrounded by the most supportive kind humans that also love music and love
@@animeasmey2 saw him yesterday. Alone as well. The best musical experience I've had. And I've seen a lot of shows in 57 years. There's nothing to compare it with it stands out so much.
I went to his concert last week and BOY was it good. I took my (non-musician) husband, who hates it when I play Jacob’s music (he says it’s always off-key 😅). He says he doesn’t understand it. But he loved the live show. The sound mixing was amazing and all the different elements of his music really came across in that format. The band was so great. Apart from his musical style, I think his records tend to be mixed with so much going on, that to the untrained ear, it sounds chaotic (my husband especially hates listening to Jacob in the car). But after seeing the live version, with only a hand full of singers and the amazing sound system (that travels with the band as they tour), my husband was finally able to grasp the music; said it was the best concert he’d ever been to, which surprised even him.
Had exactly the same experience with my gf a few weeks back. She is not a musician, and is only slowly getting more acaustomed to slightly more complex styles of music lately, but after seing him live, she said it was the best concert she has ever been to. I loved it too, but I must admit that, even as a professional musician who definitely doesn't shy away from complex music (I love anything from Bartok and Chopin to RTF, from Michael Mayo to Holdsworth and Shorter, from Spalding and Hancock to Yes and Gentle Giant,...you get my ghist, just loads of stuff others might call pretentious - though I also love me some soul, funk, electronica etc. ), I do prefer jacob's more focused, intimate songs, with him singing and playing solo, and really using his instrumental and harmonisation skills. I also favour some of the tasty, groovy tracks, with his backing singers on lead, rather than the over the top - running from one Instrument to the other - stuff. While that makes for a great little show element live, I feel like the single elements can suffer a bit sometimes. It's not like, as a listener, most of what he does goes over my head. Musically I can enjoy it, most of the time. (Not saying I could replicate it in any form 😂) It's just that I feel a bit of the feeling - and he has loads of it - gets lost along the way. I love musical journeys, but a good journey needs some time.
"Are you criticizing something, or are you asking for a different thing?" Mic just summed up like 95% of annoying online "critique" these days that purports to be an objective analysis of something but is just someone complaining that something not for them doesn't fit their (often very narrow) tastes.
So what you’re saying is don’t criticize anything or anyone’s music? This has been what people have done in relation to music criticism since the dawn of music.
Jacob is a kid in a musical candy shop, sprinting from aisle to aisle, gorging himself on every new and exciting flavor he finds, and experiencing profound joy the whole time. He makes music that he finds interesting or meaningful to himself. He's not trying to show off all the time; he's pushing his boundaries and doing weird stuff because he'd get bored otherwise. As a musician, I wish I could maintain that level of energy and authenticity. I like a decent chunk of his music, but everything about his creative process is fucking inspirational.
That's the exact reason why I don't like his music unfortunately. There is something to be said about being true to yourself and maintaining the child-like playfulness, but yeah... I did not like his new album at all. Felt like a lot of questionable and confusing choices that felt unwarranted. But if he's happy, then good for him.
People really hate this dude because of the epic gap between what people are told he is "Mozart" and his music. It's like bringing a comedian on stage saying "next up the funniest man in the world..." The audience is going to go "Oh really? We will see about that."
That's not coming from him, though. And to be honest, most people who are hating on him would get a lot more bored listening to a Mozart sonata than they would a Jacob Collier ballad.
You nailed it when you said, “it depends on what do you go to a musician for” and the subway and beef fried rice example. There’s something for everyone and if he’s not for you, let him be. Those of us who are enjoying what he’s bringing want him to keep bringing it.
Jacob is such a sweet and thrilling and lovely music educator and communicator. His music has always been a hard sell that I've never bought, but I have so much raw respect for the way he talks about and preaches the gospel of music.
Not only that, he gives amazing concerts. You might dislike him ofc, music is not for everyone, but the dude has so much contagious energy. I saw him in Portugal, he gave a 2 hour concert, with non stop energy, engaging with the audience, inviting local musicians to sing along with him. It was a great time, I didn't know him much before (it was in a music festival, he wasn't the headliner) but I became a fan after that concert.
I'm with most people where Jacob's music is a hit or miss, but when he makes slower-paced pieces of work (which I end to gravitate towards) they're genuinely so pleasant to listen to. I still go back to his cover of "in the Bleak Midwinter" and "I heard you singing" (though that one is more recent)
I saw him a couple weeks ago. I had him in high regard just by watching bits and pieces through the years but I had never listened to any of his albums before so I was wondering if I was gonna be able to connect. Well.. i can honestly say it was one of the most beautiful experiences I’ve ever had. The music, the lights, the band, the singers, him playing a bunch of instruments, the energy, his way of interacting with the audience, the choir ( all of us) Extra talented wonderful soul. I could’ve stayed there 3 more hours. I guess you cannot like everything the world has to offer. I’m just glad my subjectivity allows me to appreciate, enjoy and be touched by Jacob’s music because he is a supremely talented unicorn.
@@agora_the_rapperyeah i honestly have issues with brad, dont hate him but he still gets way too overly negative for the video and stuff and it feels... odd. some of his reviews just have this odd aura to them
@@agora_the_rapper definitely, I've been a subscriber to his channel for the last 4-5 years, and the vibe of his channel seems to just get more negative as he gets older. Revisiting his older content when he was so much younger seems so much more positive, even on things he didn't like at all. Especially with how big his fanbase has gotten in the last couple of years. It's sad to see
This is called not having a taste in MUSIC. You have a taste in fun or something like that. It's all good. But I'm sure you would not simply eat a dish just because it seems it was fun to cook it.
@@AppearDispairDisappear-xi1gtbut that's such a lazy point of view when there's so many ways you can enjoy stuff. Why even categorize art for being good or bad? Seems like a pointless way of looking at things to me. You don't have to enjoy a dish only for how it tastes, you can also look at it, or focus on the smell or textures
@@criburgir I do not disagree. I enjoy Collier, as a virtuoso. But his album is awful music, according to my taste. Are we allowed to have a taste or any criticism of his music is laziness?
The only thing that actually frustrates me about Jacob's music is that, when it DOES hit for me (which isn't as often as I'd like), it's transcendent. For example: so much of Djesse Pt. 2 specifically doesn't work for me, but the closing track "Time to Rest Your Weary Head" might legitimately be one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard in my life. It's not a talent showcase, but just a quiet & honest emotional expression. Just Jacob & his guitar. Others may disagree, but I think that song is his opus.
I agree that the softer, simpler acoustic stuff has more impact for many people but that one is absolutely a talent showcase of theory and microtonality . If you understood how incredibly complex and sophisticated that one is it might blow your mind. The things is you FEEL it but don't know it's happening. Moon River uses the technique too. ua-cam.com/video/Xd54l8gfi7M/v-deo.html
I feel the same but about Moon River. Nothing ever in my life moved me as much musically as that cover, the amount of emotions I felt the first times I heard it were just incredible. I bought a keyboard and started learning to play just for that song.
My favorite song of his as well. The main reason for me why that is, is that the lyrics are actually well written. Usually he can't write good lyric to save his life. But in this song he has some gems like this: "I long to see the things we saw When we were young and could not see so clearly When all the world was just a blur of colored lines That I'd trace most sincerely back to you" I think he would really benefit from having an actual poet write his lyrics for him, and focus on the music part. He already collaborates so much, why not in writing?
Tbh Mic I think something immensely helpful would be a video talking about ‘production’ and ‘mixing’ and ‘mastering’- because 9/10 times people seem to use those words interchangeably or are just wrong about what they mean. Something to think on!
When you said that music isn't necessary, you kind of missed the point of the question "is it necessary?". It doesn't mean if it is necessary to us as human beings, it is about aesthetics. It means, is it necessary to convey the aesthetic quality that it is intended to convey, or does it fill the space without fulfilling purpose of further the expressiveness of the piece? Does it hold a function within the structure? This is a very simple ontological mistake.
Also it leads you to reject art critique outright. Everything becomes an absolute relativization of aesthetics. By that metric you can not criticize any art, because you "gotta meet it where it's at". In other words, art is this self-contained thing that cannot be critiqued in any way, because as soon as you do that, you add a subjective standpoint that is outside the product itself. This is something that I do not agree with in the least. A part of the art of critiquing art is comparison to its history, not because it is "necessary" but because it is inescapable" and a critique of it's structure and the way it chooses to break with it. And example, in my point of view, is the way Jacob Collier chooses to create a collage of different styles and genres within a single album or even a single song, without actually breaking with the established traditions within those genres. This makes the structure of the song fragmented and incomplete, the elements in it don't blend together to create a coherent stylistic whole. This is why the critique of using the mastering of technique to mask the lack of development of an aesthetic is, again in my view, largely correct. And the question "is it necessary?" is also correct. Does it serve an aesthetic function to have a metal ending to a pop song? Perhaps, but it depends how it is done. Is it done in a way where the pop song and the metal outro blend together in a single expressive whole, or is it done simply to show that you can play several genres as a matter of technique, making the piece sound disjointed? In Jacob Colliers case, I'd argue that it is the latter.
@@snakeweirdo This is an absolutely _beautiful_ way to put it. Personally, I disagree entirely with the final conclusion - I think Jacob's aesthetic is his lack of one. I often go to his work with the explicit goal of being surprised, being caught off-guard. The moment in 100,000 Voices you mentioned still surprises me every time, even when I know it's coming, because I've never heard another pop song abruptly shift into heavy metal (and theres a whole nother thing to be said about how i think it leads into She Put Sunshine in a really cool way) Either way though, you're absolutely right about art and critique by itself!
its necessary tho. jacob put it there to tell a story for the album, and it is also there to make it less boring for him. the aesthetic is whatever he finds interesting
you hit the nail on the head. I used to be a big fan of his music, because i was studying music at the time and could relate to Jacob's drive to want to know how all of it works. His approach to music has been very influential to how I think about music At some point I started looking for different things in music though, and Jacob's music didn't really click anymore for me. Funnily enough, I've been listening to a lot of Big Thief and Adrianne Lenker, which i would say are pretty different from Jacob's music. But Jacob himself is actually a huge fan of Adrianne. Not everyone might like his music, but his public spotify playlist has a lot of good music in it.
Same here, I found myself listening to his second djesse album on repeat back in high school when I was in music studies. He is a very inspiring creator, but as I grew my musical palette I just started to lose a lot of that connection I once had with his music.
It happened to me with a lot of bands since I started exploring musically when I was 13, incredible bands that are normally considered some of the best in the world, they don't click with me as much as before, it's something that just happens, All types of art eventually have the chance to bore us, no matter how incredible it seemed to us at the time, but that is not an argument that their music has never been as good as we thought, it is just a testament that we change and look for different emotions.
i think when people say "Jacob makes Disney music," they're saying that his really popular stuff has this very slick feel to it, almost too polished, too theatrical, like AJR or some band like that it's basically a growing backlash against alt-pop and the UA-cam art pop musician
also, it's rich that Jacob Collier's getting chewed out now when Cardiacs have become more popular than ever before, with Sing to God quickly gaining canonization, and black midi finally getting airplay in the US
My cellphone ringtone is a short clip from his Flintstones. I was super impressed that this young teenager could put together these convoluted music videos in his bedroom. He's grown up a bit since then. I have seen him live once and enjoyed when he conducted the audience singing acapella harmonies. Of course, that's one of his trademarks now. He has a very deep understanding of harmony. And he's able to play a huge range of instruments with great skill. I'm sort of in awe of his abilities, yet I don't listen to his music much. I'm impressed but can only take so much. Eventually, the intricacies becomes too intense. Even though I haven't listened to a ton of his music, when I do, it makes me feel nice. But I can only take small portions. It feels to me that he has created a new genre: Jacob Collier music.
I understand the overload u stated. I get to that point too. Im exhausted by the end of 'bridge' when I hear/sing to it a couple few times. So much to take in and chew on! Then I get hungry again and want more! Lol
all of my friends are musicians, they all feel the same "its brilliant but i dont enjoy it" i feel alone on an island, cant think of an artist in my 40+ years that has made records ive found as captivating. I get so enjoyably lost in his works.
Never got the hate around this guy, he just seems like he’s really passionate about teaching music theory to the masses and that’s something I can always get behind 2:29 also was not expecting to see the Quinton Reviews Henningverse video to pop up here. I’m currently seven hours in and I’ve been watching a bit every day since it came out, please send help lol
in fairness, i don't know if many parrots are technologically savvy enough to make alt accounts. im surprised it even managed to post one comment to be honest.
I think a big part is that the online music "critic-oriented" community seems to be based around music that has some kind of deep emotional negative depths to it, which Jacob Collier's music just, well, doesn't have at all. He presents himself as a very cheerful, happy guy who wants to express this happiness in a larger than life way. The "thousand of voices singing together" shtick as one example, as that immidiately sets the tone for the fourth volume. It's also the reason it mostly doesn't really click with me either. I also prefer my happy music to be mostly like "everything is shit all the time but I just had five seconds of moderate joy for the first time in many months, so maybe there might be something to live for other than the constant running away from my almost crippling fear of pain". There seems to be a mostly unspoken conception that art must be about some kind of trauma, or otherwise it's shallow, which does make some sense from a western art history perspective. Tortured artist archetype and the tragic loss of Man's innocense and all. It's kind of an interesting question what role happiness has or could have in art. But I'm probably the wrong person to answer that lol.
I think the thing about joyful art is you can't fake it. Green Day's most recent album is a good example of this, where Billie Joe sings about hot rods and the 80s and he just clearly doesn't actually care about it. But then you go back to songs about the same kinds of things from 70 years ago and they feel much more earnest and true. You can't fake good art. You have to really believe everything you put into it. You have to believe that your art is special, or it won't be special. Jacob Collier clearly does believe in the beauty of those thousands of voices, and that's I think why it works, at least for me.
I don't think people really expect music to be sad and depressing all the time, I think people just are not kin to the whimsical and fantastical nature that Jacob presents. Like, twice he made a video that was like "You know, music can be anything, nothing's truly bad, there's always potential" or giving his personal life philosophy, both very positive in nature, and people responded like "ehm, what about this obviously terrible album/artist??" or calling him presumptuous/privileged for having a carefree attitude about life.
I was just exposed to his live version of Bridge over Trouble Waters yesterday. I was floored by it, it was incredible and for me (as a choir kid) was an incredible rendition that used his synth-style to highlight the INCREDIBLE voices he was with. Watching him love what he was doing and the fun he had was infectious, so I went to his instagram page. He had the setlist announcement for his DJesse4 album pinned. In this, every song that featured someone else, those artist, not Jacob, said their names. Small touch, but to me spoke volumes as to who Jacob could be - a dude who loves to make random, beautifully diverse tracks with a bunch of talented artists. I loved the album. It was random, but something about it was so impactful for me. It's just really nice to be exposed to and enjoy the product of a guy who just loves making music and isn't afraid to be wild and weird about it. His creativity, infectious positivity and joy on stage is what I enjoy the most about him so far, I'm looking forward to going to his other albums and seeing what comes next! Very good video by the way man.
I adore Jacob’s music. How often are we surprised by what we listen to? Listening to his songs for the first time often leave me crying or confused. But even his more pop/melodic songs are peppered with surprises. That kind of curiosity and interest to stretch your ear to what sounds good is so exciting to me, and probably why I love his work.
I used to be very into jacob collier when I was a teenager but I find that his work just feels weightless to me now. A lot of his music points to emotions but rarely manages to actually make me feel them. Like, nothing ever goes wrong in a Jacob Collier track. He never misses a beat, his voice never cracks, pitch deviations feel calculated to the cent. It feels like he could walk into traffic with his eyes closed and the cars would simply miss him. As for why people hate him so much, I think there's probably a class element to it. You hear the accent, you see his dozens of expensive instruments, you think about how much free time and access to education you'd need to learn everything he's learned and you realise just how few people ever had the opportunity to become the kind of artist he is. I think his style of maximalism can feel kinda insulting. When so many genres are defined by the material conditions that birthed them, and maximalism is defined by its lack of limitation, it can feel like his music is made for people who don't know how much a loaf of bread costs.
i am the opposite, when i was younger (not a teenager.....cause i am older than Jacob) i didn't like him very much, i wasn't feeling anything from his music, now i really like his stuff, because i can finally hear his emotions he puts in his music, and this works even retroactively as well.
I agree, I think he's so good at music theory and making everything make sense that even the most chaotic tracks feel calculated. And sometimes the best part of music is when you hear emotion and soul, and sometimes his work can lack that sort of emotional depth. Jacobs music is kind of like what math sounds like as a song.
I think the social class argument makes sense, but what parent wouldn't like to give their child a childhood like that? When we finally find a person who had such parents we hate them for being luckier than us? That to me just shows a lack of empathy.
This is a great general counter to people's complaints about just about everything these days. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Nobody has to like anything. But "I don't like this" and "this is bad" get too confused too often.
This needs to be the highlighted comment. People need to take better account of their words and language and how they communicate ideas. Language is a precious tool and all that we really have to understand one another on any meaningful level, so it's exhausting and defeating when the world around you doesn't seem to give a flying shit about nuance and specificity (when it conveniently benefits them to not care about that, of course).
@@OrgaNik_Music It's not okay when it comes to art, because it's all subjective, unless something in the thing you criticize is literally immoral or hurts someone or a community personally. So most of the time no, it's not fine.
I think discourse around him is very similar to the movie Death of Stalin...in that everyone pretends like everything is all a-ok and won't tell the truth or take correct action because they are afraid to get Stalin angry. it is the same thing, everyone has to pretend like Jacob is a prodigy and a genius and afraid to say he just sucks.
This is an example of how way too much of almost *every* discourse is taken up by people who just get pleasure out of being mean, usually because they want the satisfaction of other people agreeing with their take or thinking they're funny. I think Jacob Collier is one of those artists who sort of attracts those people by being earnest and playful. It takes a lot of courage to do what he does in the way he does, by mixing things that don't often go together and doing it in a way that's completely sincere (not hidden behind irony or pastiche like Zappa or Primus or even The Beatles would usually do). I don't think that necessarily makes for better music, but I notice when someone puts themselves out there in that way, just doing what they want with a sort of childlike disregard for how cool it is or how it fits stylistically, that's exactly what attracts the kind of person who says "cringe" to everything they dislike.
yep, those are the type of people who purposefully say overly negative things or just an insult straight up, then reply shit like "womp womp" to make themselves feel like they won the argument for not caring they're everywhere on the internet, and now we pretty much can't have any respectful discussions anymore. it's just mindless insults and arguing for the sake of having the last laugh
Seeing him live changed my opinion on the music. But I’ve always loved how unapologetically in love with music he is. He’s always just having a good time and that’s inspiring to me.
I guess I am one of those people. I would argue those are the same thing, unless you think people are saying that bad = "morally bad" which I don't think is what people mean. If somebody tells me "chocolate ice cream is bad" and "vanilla ice cream is good" I view that as synonymous with "I like vanilla ice cream and dislike chocolate ice cream".
Their the exact same thing. How can something be objectively good in one sense and then subjective at the same time? It can’t. For example person A may not like some of the most poplar and “good” heavy metal music as it could just be noise to them. But person B could rlly enjoy and see the merit in it. They have both consumed and interpreted the elements that make up the art and come to different conclusive feelings of it. This could be for a number of reasons including culture and/or more personal complex reasons but it does not matter they are both entitled to interpret the art differently and express that interpretation differently. How can Metallica make objectively good art? Well sure they can “objectively good” metal music but what exactly is that? What is the criteria for that? And how is it just cause it’s realised in what it’s trying to be does it make it objectively good? And who decides that? I can keep going forever but it’s just pointless. Music is completely subjective and there is no “this is objectively good but I don’t like it” that can’t make any sense
@@alexh3143 (1) “Their the exact same thing.” No. They aren’t. Show the capacity for thought. The quality of a thing, and a person’s opinion of a thing, are two totally different things. One has to do with the actual thing itself. The other has to do with an outside actor’s view of the thing. How one views a thing, and the thing itself, are separate. 1+1=2. No matter what my opinion on the math is, that is the math. It doesn’t matter if I like or dislike 1+1=2, it is simply the case that 1+1=2. (2) “For example… who decides that?” This is a perfect example of why I am correct. Thank you for supporting what I said. You are demonstrating the exact point I was making. Whether or not two people like, or dislike, a given piece of music has 0 to do with the actual quality of the music itself. And you do a great job at demonstrating why. (3) “I can keep going forever.” Please. Every time you say something you further support what I said. Go ahead. But it is kind of pointless in the fact that you say you disagree with me but you end up just supporting what I said. It is kind of odd of you
@@jloiben12 well look you can be passive aggressive making attempts to insult me just cause I have a separate opinion to you go ahead that’s your problem not mine. Can i ask however what these objective elements of music how does a piece of art succeed at developing them?
one thing i will say is that i saw jacob live a few years ago - it was the first concert i went to alone (none of my friends were interested for reasons in this video lol) and i've never seen a more magical, respectful space, where everyone was just there for a good time and to sing some songs. when he did the audience participation it was just amazing. even if i ever stop listening to his music, i won't forget that feeling
I think his bigger, more bombastic songs can feel excessive, but god damn some of the quieter tracks on Vol 4 are GORGEOUS (Little Blue, Summer Rain, Never Gonna Be Alone)
Never Gonna Be Alone paints an emotion in which I would like to live forever. so peaceful and calm. Living in a country with high crime rates where you cannot go out on the street without fear of being robbed, to the point of constantly having a broken cell phone in your pocket to give it to potential thieves, those songs give me a level of peace that is difficult for me to achieve in the real world.
i think he doesn’t really give a shit if people like his music, but it’s ironic considering that people act like he is trying soooo hard to impress them or something. like maybe the dude just makes what he thinks is cool
"Are you criticizing something or asking for a different thing?" YES! Well put! Thank you!
28 днів тому+1
I also find it hard to connect with most of his music, but to me the stripped experience of his tiny desk during the pandemic left space for the melodies, grooves and harmonies to shine through and get me engaged. And his concerts are a lot of fun too, definitely recommend, especially if you're a musician.
I'd love to see him work with a strong lyricist like Bernie Taupin/Elton or Nick Hornsby/Ben Folds. I don't have a problem with his lyrics, but it feels like that aspect of his music is less elevated than the others as a result of him being SO good at everything else. Ben Folds is a great lyricist but his work with Nick Hornsby provided us something different. Not that its a requirement (just got to that part of the video lmao) but.... I'd like to see it? More a possibility that's worth exploring than an outright criticism.
In defense of Djesse Vol 4 (and the supposed soullessness of his music): I may not enjoy every track on the album but I cried when I first heard Bridge Over Troubled Water and sobbed when I first heard Little Blue and World O World. To me, the storytelling in his music has always been within the harmony. Maybe I’m biased as a musician and being sort of fluent in the language, but even if you took away the lyrics, I can still understand what he’s trying to say just by listening to the harmony and how it relates to the melody. Also, Jacob, as a person, is the kind of man I’ve always wanted to be-kind and endlessly optimistic. I honestly don’t think he wakes up each day just being positive by default; rather, I feel like he chooses positivity every time despite whatever inconvenience his day may bring.
100%, Much of the emotional message of his music takes place in its harmony/melody. I am not a musician who has studied academically, but I like music enough to try to understand by actively listening the relationship between chords and the emotions that each chord and progression of chords generate when I listen to music, and in my opinion his management of harmony is on another level, not only technically, but emotionally as well. For whoever is reading this, it is not necessary to study music or know theory to feel those emotions in harmony (although having studied clearly can help a lot).
Respectfully, his harmonic storytelling is the exact problem I have with Jacob’s music. When every chord has a million extensions and diatonic clusters, they all start to blend together and the story gets lost. To paraphrase The Incredibles, “when every chord is super, none of them are”. I feel like the harmonic stunts and tricks he uses would have a lot more impact if he was more judicious and used them in service of the song’s message rather than using them for their own sake.
I think it was the marketing of it. Gaga marketed Joanne as her most personal body of work, and did the whole documentary around it, etc. and the album doesn't quite live up to it. Similar to Katy Perry and Witness, except Witness was actually bad, while Joanne was fine enough.
yeah especially coming from Michael Snare who usually doesn't seem to indulge in the hating on music to be funny thing like some others, like it's really not that bad.
I describe him to friends as a musician's musician. I don't know enough about music to fully appreciate the magic of Collier. A live concert is electric. Love him
hell yeah, you don't have to like his music, but he's a cool dude, I recommend the interview "we interview the Mozart of Gen Z" even though the title is really annoying, it is a great interview to get to know him as a human.
that's how opinions on the internet in general has become, it's always "this shit sucks, everyone except me has shit taste" instead of "i don't like it"
I think it is like with the super gifted kids you hear about. They are supposed to have an IQ greater than Einstein but decades later they have disappeared into obscurity. That is what Colliers music is to me. Just another super gifted kid that mistakes experiments for music but has found a was to marked it.
From the very beginning I always thought his music seemed very disconnected like it didn’t have any “soul” to it. And I was saying that years ago. It’s incredibly impressive without a doubt but there’s just something missing to it and I can’t put my finger on it other than using terms like “soul” even though obviously I know he’s making it from his own creative and artistic expression. I just think that it’s so technical to the point where at least for myself it lacks any sort of good cohesion to make it a good song making him a good songwriter but I’ve always thought he’s an exceptional producer
@@lehuydang3576 People can say they don’t like it if their reasoning is they don’t feel like it has soul as long as they know that it’s their own opinion and not some objective statement
His Djesse 4 show was one of the most magical live music experiences I have ever witnessed. His performance, the ridiculously talented band members, the stage scenery and lighting were all synced up perfectly. The live music hits very differently than the studio recordings
You'll never meet a hater that does more than you. All these self anointed critics that probably can't align 3 chords together and yet judge other people's music... Jacob is being himself and you gotta respect him for that! So much talent
it's just his smug, middle-class face ...that's the core of the controversy. he even makes music that sounds exactly like his smug middle class face. actually explains the whole thing. even explains why Adam Neely polyrhythms are OK and Jacob Collier ones are annoying. Adam is understated and has a sense of shame, whereas Jacob has no such thing and is overstated. in short, it's the pomposity of it all, which gets exagerated when lauded by musical legends and YT creators etc etc caveat: i thought In My Room was pretty good and the Djesse series has it's moments
I would categorize myself as a Jacob Collier superfan. I've been following his work since Djesse Vol 2, and I've been incredibly fascinated by all of his work, new and old. I think he brings such a unique and exciting perspective to music, and while some of his songs/ideas can be complicated and noisy, it's always a treat to delve into something you might not fully understand but appreciate. That being said, I can understand why most folks generally wouldn't mesh with his sound. I've heard him labeled as "the musician's musician," which makes sense. Most of his music is littered with complex harmonies and microtones and several musical genres/styles all layered on top of each other. It's a lot. Sometimes a lot is great, but not everyone wants all that. The avid JC haters get on my nerves, though. Collier is just a guy who loves music and everything surrounding it, and his whole goal in making music is to share that love with as many people as possible. Sure, he wears bright ass colors and jumps around and says quirky stuff, and that might not be your cup of tea (it isn't always mine), but at the very least you can't deny his talent. His music isn't "trash" or "gay" or "autistic", it just isn't for you.
Collier has always struck me as a Musician’s Musician. Not that “his music requires a very high iq to understand”, but that the music he makes is what a lot of musicians love to listen to. It’s Weird and Out There™ in ways that musicians in particular love, and the fact that all the technical skill and musical craft is front and center while still having an audience beyond music nerds is incredible. I think the wide selection of collaborations he’s done just goes to show just how much musicians of all styles like him. Anyway I’m a big fan, and honestly had no idea people hated him
Idk. I'm a music maker (I make music on Ableton Live, though I wouldn't call myself exactly a musician anymore, as I cannot for the life of me play synths well or even the flute), and I have always thought his music is infinite potential thrown into creations that are technically coherent but, frankly, somewhat meaningless.
@@radiofloyd2359 I also see his music as just a chaotic melting pot of ideas. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially when you yourself are a musician. I see it more like "here you go, here are 100000 musical ideas, all played in couple of minutes. Many of them you hadn't heard before. Take the ones that you like go do something with them ".
@@radiofloyd2359 I think there's a big difference between musical ideas being "boring" and "something that doesn't appeal to you". I definitely wouldn't call his music boring. From a technical perspective he does a lot of things that are interesting. But if you don't like it that's totally fair.
@@radiofloyd2359 what is meaning? Is abstract expressionist visual art meaningless because it is abstract? Must meaning be obvious? What is She Put Sunshine about, anyway? I've listened to it about 100 times and I'm still thinking about that.
I consider myself guilty of having said this more than once, I am going to try to change the way I say it and constantly clarify that it is just my opinion.
One nitpick is that you say “that’s not the point of his music” - honestly it doesn’t matter what the intention is. What matters is the interpretation. I could make a song full of slurs and say that my intention wasn’t to be hateful but it doesn’t mean much. Having bad lyrics is a perfectly valid critique and it actually doesn’t have to be compared to other artists who you claim focus on their lyrics more than Jacob. Who is to say? Only the listener
I think a lot of Jacob's musical insights are really interesting. Like one time I had to explain the circle of fifths to someone as "the color wheel but for music", but later I had to stop and think about how much of a metaphor that actually is. Color and pitch are both determined by frequency, so maybe there's a correlation. Then I saw Jacob talk about adding notes to a chord from the left or right side of the circle of fifths to change the brightness of a chord with what he described as a "light" and "dark" side and I was like "Holy shit!" because it's the same way with the color wheel and cool and warm tones. I don't know if that connection has ever been stated but I've never seen anyone talk about that before.
You might like to look up Milton Mermikides. He's a musician/academic, and an excellent commentator on music ideas and theory. He uses similar dark and light imagery to explore these ideas. He's doing an excellent lecture series at the moment for Gresham College (published on their UA-cam channel) and his own UA-cam channel and website are fascinating.
There's a guy on UA-cam whose first and only video (at the time) was just him badmouthing Jacob. That's what he decided to build his entire channel off of. It's really sad. Especially when he didn't have good points. He says his clothes are dumb and he's not a good musician. And he had like 2 examples of him playing something live that didn't work very well. Like one instance of him messing up in front of people takes away all of his musicianship. The hate for him is almost as extra as Jacob himself. But yeah, he's popular, he's getting attention, he's gonna get hate no matter what he does.
and what's funnier is that most people's hate towards Jacob's music is that it is TOO perfect and doesn't have any single mistake but then he does commit a mistake live this guy shits on him for "not being a good musician" lol
Saw Jacob's show yesterday. Well, firstly there's nothing to compare it with (including the crowd - you don't find thousands of such people gather at the same place often. You know, it's when you nod and smile to everyone automatically and you get that "they know that you know too" feeling. But secondly, there's a huge difference - like another dimension- between the tracks/youtube videos of him and live versions of the same songs. I really wish that after the current tour a high quality video/audio of the concert will be released as an album.
I am one of those people who loves his music and listen to it all the time. I can see why it would not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it just clicks with my brain. I love how cray cray it is. I also think Jacob is a wonderful person and someone who is so kind and insightful - he’s a fabulous person and his energy just does make me more positive. His lyrics are gorgeous and flow from that same spirit 😊 I also think art is necessary - we need to feed our soul or we wither away! I reject the question whether Jacobs art is necessary because it’s arrogant for someone to decide what art is necessary. Jacobs music feeds the souls of many !
Jacob Collier is the Rick and Morty of the music world. any criticism of him for a long time was brushed away as "you just aren't musically smart enough to enjoy the complexity of what he makes" and that attitude is cringe as shit. he's slapped on this giant untouchable pedestal and plenty of people hate his stuff just because of that reputation I love his work for its undeniably unique sound, but above all I absolutely adore his mentality about music and creativity in general.
What I like most about Djesse 4 is the simplicity that permeates it. Every song has some element of simplicity, like the stillness of Never Gonna Be Alone and Summer Rain, the hymn-like beginning of World O World, or the fact that Bridge Over Troubled Water is a cover of Bridge Over Troubled Water. The two obvious exceptions are 100,000 Voices (the overture) and Box of Stars (the climax). Maybe I also just relate to it as a fellow 29-year-old music school graduate.
I don't really understand the hate towards djesse vol 4, 100,000 voices, little blue, wherever i go, Cinnamon Crush (amazing song), Summer Rain (really beautiful song), A Rock Somewhere (instrumentally incredible), Never Gonna Be Alone (one of the best), Bridge Over Troubled Water (obviously ), Box Of Stars Pt. 1, Box Of Stars Pt. 2 (uses one of his best melody lines in a sonic exploration of genres that is simply too interesting to consider bad), World O World (a great closing of the 4 albums and a stage in his life), the album, despite not being for everyone, has incredible experiences. I think that the more pop songs prevent people from giving their other songs a real chance.
Say what you will about his music, but what Jacob Collier is doing really well is making the kind of music he wants to hear. He's not making albums to try and appeal to specific types of people or to do anything other than be true to himself... Okay, so the result is not for everyone, but thats fine because the point is you can clearly see an artist creating without any barriers in their way whilst being completely authentic, thats true artistry and very few people are doing that these days especially not people signed to major labels.
My boyfriend took me to a concert and wanted to keep it a surprise.. i had to trust him. Turned out to be JC and I had never really listened to his music. It was an amazing night in KC and now I'm a big fan, listening to all the albums.
I was at Jacob's concert at LA's Greek theatre last night and was blown away-not just by the music but by the diversity of the crowd. Just about every age and kind of human being was represented there, including quite a few Boomers like me who theoretically should not "get" his ADHD/genre-wandering music. But he electrified everyone. It does him a disservice to compare him to Mozart. Nobody needs those kind of expectations... not even Mozart. He's a talented musician and songwriter who is generous to his band and knows how to uplift a crowd. And I'm grateful to know that he's got a long career ahead of him.
Honestly, I think Collier's biggest flaw is that he's too clean. Black Midi is another highly technical British artist with strange vocals and lots of instruments, but their songs are about fucked-up stuff and the arrangements often lean into dissonance and atonality.
I think one point this video leaves out is that a lot of people just like music that sounds familiar to them, and Jacob really enjoys writing music that sounds new and different. Some people *really* don't like to be challenged, and are quick to attack anyone they don't understand. His music never really clicked with me before, though I appreciated his talent from a respectful distance. But Vol. 4 feels fundamentally different to me. Little Blue, She Put Sunshine, Never Gonna Be Alone, Witness Me... these tracks (and more) feel so much more *accessible* than his earlier work, while still being so musically unique and creative. It still took me a few listens to wrap my head around everything that's going on in those tracks, but they keep getting better each time I hear them. I'm really curious to see where he goes next - I hope it's more like this, although given his love of novelty I'm not holding my breath :)
As someone who's only mildly familiar with Jacob but has recently grown fascinated with music theory, this was such a cool video! I'm quite impartial to the "less is more" theory as a writer myself, but I also think the beauty of making art is throwing every idea you have into your project and seeing what sticks. After all, that throwaway idea that came to you in a half asleep stupor could be the thing people connect with the most. I may have to take a deep dive of my own into his work this weekend--if I can tear myself away from my novel anyway 😅
Do the albums chronologically (In My Room, DJesse Vol 1, 2, 3, 4) BUT some of the best stuff is online in Mahogany Session or in live performances like the concert ion Lisbon or in his improvised piano solos covers of well known songs. That's where the audience comes in. @happyendings_15
Who knows guys, he's young yet. Everyone told Mozart his music was too busy early on in his career, and then later he made requiem which is so considered, so delicate, so focused. Jacob Collier has admitted these albums are explorations. If explorative wild music isn't interesting to you, cool. But stick around, he may just pull out a requiem some day.
He's said in interviews before: "people often tell me 'less is more'. but for less to be more, you have to know what more is". He's just figuring out what more is to him right now! (spoiler alert: it means the *most* lmao). I mean, just take The Sun is in Your Eyes for example
I just found his music recently and I can’t stop listening to his version of “how deep is your love” I love how he gets the crowd at his shows involved. I feel like he unifies different music genres into one perfectly messy blend and I can’t get enough of it
people will always speak against or defend what they cannot understand. true enjoyment comes from letting the ignorant patronize each other and convince themselves - have fun
7 місяців тому+1
His recent live performance of 'Wild Mountain Thyme' is phenomenal, I've watched it so many times. CANNOT get through any of his recorded stuff though. But still seriously respect him and enjoy his content and live clips.
Everybody loved him and said he was the best, and then everyone hated him and said he wasn't that good, and then there's me who really only likes Sleeping On My Dreams and All I Need and will listen to those two forever
@@tsg_frank I'm not saying he can't use his talent, that's not what I mean at all. I just mean that it feels like all of his songs feel to me like he's trying to flex that talent instead of putting it to good use
@@Ethan-sv3piif you watch his interviews carefully you'll notice that doesn't make sense with how he works and motivates him, which might signal some bias from you.
Harry Styles said in an interview that when working on Harry's House and a little bit in Fine Line, he stopped trying to make the music people wanted to hear, he started making the music he loved, and that he wanted to hear. This is the main reason I fell in love with Jacobs music. Yes he is incredibly talented and yes that can make it a bit much at times, but he is sharing the music he loves, we just so happen to take in enough of it that he could make his life around it. In my personal opinion, he embodies what making music is, not because of the talent, but because of the care and personality. You could say the same about so many other artists too
I too wasn't aware of any controversy in the media. I just booked a ticket for Jacob's concert in Vienna next November because I have the feeling that he is particularly good at the "live music experience" interacting with the audience, having seen a couple videos of that. So I assume it will definitely be a fine evening.
He has a unique perspective, seeing no bounds to music and exploring all the creative possibilities. I think maybe a valid criticism is not honing in on a specific sound as he’s very much a maximalist. The criticisms about him making soulless music is absolutely wild though. If you don’t like it that’s fine, but he has so much passion for what he does and it shows. And the slower tracks he makes are SO beautiful imo, I hope he dedicates more time to that
some art has subject matter which needs to be taken seriously and if the piece is cringily executed, can't command respect, solemnity, whatever, then yeah i would say that's a valid complaint. you can say "cringe" is not a moral shortcoming (that's fair) but it absolutely is an artistic one
You should. Plenty of stuff is objectively cringe. As in, large numbers of people physically, involuntarily cringe when they hear it. And that’s a pretty damning criticism that you really should take seriously.
i have only ever listened to one song from Jacob and that’s his cover of moon river, and you can say whatever about the rest of his music but that song is transcendental
Captions will be available soon, the next DDD is up next, thanks for watching y'all 🙏
michael you scare me with two smiths references are we about to get morrissey'd on the ddd
Day 1 of asking for Sum 41 DDD
New glasses Mic?
Mr.Snare please acknowledge me
Can we get some Deftones? Respectfully.
11:07 you nerds really did eat that shit up
not the timestamp also being 11 and 7 😭
gen z music undergrads. we were (are) the worst
I do in fact eat shit
Hey it’s the bass guy
This is because we love you, Adam
Djesse, we need to cook.
This is the only reasonable take in this entire comments section.
Before even diving into the video, I had no idea there was large discourse around Jacob. Figured he’s just good at what he does and people acknowledge it.
The Album of the Year thing caused a ton of controversy and was the first time a lot of people heard of him, so they think he's an industry plant. And that 4th Djesse doesn't help dissipate that. I think that boils down what all the backlash is about.
I also didn't know. I mean everyone is gonna get hate from time to time, especially online
I hate him and am really sick of him popping up on my yt feed. I'd be hard pressed to find cringier music than his tbh. I watched this vid in good faith, but I will never understand why anybody would elect to listen to his music. Different strokes, I guess.
I also didn't see the huge discourse, I'm an amateur musician (or "musician") and what I've been thinking lately is: he is incredibly talented and has put a lot of work into his knowledge and skillset, he is an awesome musician and entertainer, and he also is inspiring to try and learn new stuff but... he is not a good artist.
He has a writer's cred on one great song (Good Days by SZA) and then his catalogue is really unimpressive, lacks emotional depth and has a lot of bad ideas in it. Nothing really to create a fuss about.
@@ArtificialFertilizer calling it discourse is giving it too much credit imo. It’s mostly a bunch of people who have literally never heard of him prior to the Grammy nom expressing their uninformed opinions about him on Reddit and on UA-cam comments. I don’t really jive with his music either but it really sucks that disliking his music means you’re in their camp…
I think remembering "he's just a guy" is really important to remember about literally everyone you know and have ever heard of.
to me it depends on the person we are talking about, like there are some musicians that have developed a HUGE persona over the years, but jacob as much as we move him around, as much as you put him on the pedestal is ....just a dude!
The feeling of disconnection is just the feeling one have when we identify the finished product with the creator. Now with someone like jacob the finished product... is welll ...very big, but that doesnt mean that the project had its up and its downs, that at the end is just a guy who gets up, eats is breakfast, takes a sh1t and start composing, doesnt like what he made, struggles few hours with a block, likes what he makes , and then comes back and think that all that is not the good and starts over. Seems similar, I have just described 99% of creatives process and at the end of the day yeah.... its just a dude who's really passionate, and to make what he wants he needed all this theory and stuff.
so...yeah
I like to remind myself that everyone poops haha
@@tasdude3227 No. You should remember any given person is in fact a person, and going "uh they have a persona, so I'm not going to think of them as a fellow human being" is absolutely batshit. Get help.
@@morganqorishchi8181 bruh, the need to say this is in itself worthy of help seeking lol
i would like to retract my statement on Jacob Collier
You have been forgiven @awildparrot719
@@awildparrot719 very nice character development. What made you change, specifically?
This should be top comment LMAO
Good one @wildparrot719!!!!
Bruh 😅 you're not the same guy?? Lol
I think a huge reason why Jacob Collier is getting all this backlash is a reason that isn't even directly his fault, and it's not even in the music itself. Media outlets are putting him on a pedestal as this musical genius and treating him like an artistic god, so when some people hear that and then find they don't like his music, its falling from a great height so to speak. As a musical artist, hearing that he was one of "the best musicians alive" made me compare him to myself and my music where I don't use a lot of fancy music theory. The headlines about him made me think "Well he uses complex music theory I don't know and everyone's saying he's so good, my stuff might not be able to compare", so when I listened to Djesse V4 I thought "Really? This is the music the 'best musician alive' is making? It's pretty bad". Like you said in the video, artists should be treated as human beings, but even when he directly tells the interviewers "I'm a flawed person, I don't like being called a genius," they still title the video "THE MOZART OF GEN Z".
Unrelated but he made a free plugin for DAWs where you can play the audience choir thing he does at shows. I might not like his music all that much but it's an amazing choir plugin.
i do like jacob, but yes. this is it. it's not his fault. it's that of the snobs
It also emboldens an attitude that songs need a certain application of musical theory to be viable and valid. This argument often refuses to provide cultural understanding of a genre any merit, and people who belong to those cultures are rightfully mad. People use Jacob as a kind of punching bag because he was touted as the 'face of music theory'.
Like saying "Those Punk rockers only use four simple chords and scream!" when the culture of punk is rooted in those very things.
That reminds me of the Coldplay DDD with people comparing them to Radiohead.
@@sussvarman it's even more disappointing when he dips his toes in2 so many genres & i don't know if his listeners would bother 2 check out those styles after they hear them in jacob songs
i wish this has been brought up in the video, because i think its exactly this
When I saw that headline calling him Gen Z's Mozart... Like why would the media call him that? They may as well have painted a target on his forehead.
exactly. had the same thought
Media constantly try to make fake generational fueds to get more clicks. It's the same when they started calling bands/songs "millennial pop", when the music that media define with that term is usually neither produced or listened by millennials.
It"s also the fans though, that whole community has some obnoxious worshipers in it that can repel some outsiders from joining in.
@@hansmemling2311 as a fan i hate those as well, there are loads of them in negative reviews of djesse :p
@@hansmemling2311 In fairness, that's true of most popular artists or even pop-cultural entities in general, that every comment section has rabid noisy sycophants in it amongst whatever other folks also like the stuff.
He is undeniably very talented. His actual music doesn’t click with me, it probably never will, and that’s ok, but I think the hate is so overblown.
Well people shouldn't hate him for whatever music he makes, you can hate his music (I sure do, its shit) but he makes it because he loves music i'm assuming, anybody is allowed to make music no matter the quality.
nah i understand the hate kinda. like u cant force me to believe its good when these people are saying its undeniably good. or that hes a genius. it annoys me that people think they know or have good music when they know all this music theory when it doesnt sound good. idk i do sound like a hater. its just anoying
@@Victor-oy8bjbut for someone who’s a learner do u think its a good idea to like listen to his advice on music theory and learn theory from him cuz he seems like a good teacher? Good teachers can make bad music no?
@@Victor-oy8bj basically, you hate him because he is good and you are not. noted
@@buunyyhopp i dont watch too much jacob collier. but yeah from what i see, he seems knows a lot of music theory and can teach it well. thats what hes known for. im no expert tho i never studied music or made advanced music. from how i understand music theory, every song uses music theory. but a lot of times, i think majority of artists aren't even conscious of it, it just sounds good to them. but also i think most artists know what notes and scales are for playing instruemnts. then they just choose what they like.
Just saw him live and found it very refreshing to see an artist output a luminous, joyous and colourful show performed by...humans who work on their craft. It was also a hard to pin crossover of musical styles delivered with real connection and respect to a crowd that was greatfu and delighted. Totally worth it. Thousands of people singing together just because it feels good, well, feels good. Yeah the world sucks but seing someone with so much talent SMILE and actually doing something positive with his talent gives me hope in humankind. Hey if you don't like the goody-too-shoes vibe, well there's plenty of dark and blasé and discouraging stuff out there, take your pick. Thank you Jacob!
feel you
ive seen him live 2 times and will see him anytime he finds himself in my city. Those concerts are some of my favorite memories because on top of being a mega fan of his work, I go to the concerts alone. As an introverted person, it makes me proud that i chose to go to those shows all alone and still danced and sang my heart out surrounded by the most supportive kind humans that also love music and love
I saw his show this tour as well, it’s an incredible experience
@@animeasmey2 saw him yesterday. Alone as well. The best musical experience I've had. And I've seen a lot of shows in 57 years. There's nothing to compare it with it stands out so much.
I went to his concert last week and BOY was it good. I took my (non-musician) husband, who hates it when I play Jacob’s music (he says it’s always off-key 😅). He says he doesn’t understand it. But he loved the live show. The sound mixing was amazing and all the different elements of his music really came across in that format. The band was so great.
Apart from his musical style, I think his records tend to be mixed with so much going on, that to the untrained ear, it sounds chaotic (my husband especially hates listening to Jacob in the car). But after seeing the live version, with only a hand full of singers and the amazing sound system (that travels with the band as they tour), my husband was finally able to grasp the music; said it was the best concert he’d ever been to, which surprised even him.
Had exactly the same experience with my gf a few weeks back. She is not a musician, and is only slowly getting more acaustomed to slightly more complex styles of music lately, but after seing him live, she said it was the best concert she has ever been to. I loved it too, but I must admit that, even as a professional musician who definitely doesn't shy away from complex music (I love anything from Bartok and Chopin to RTF, from Michael Mayo to Holdsworth and Shorter, from Spalding and Hancock to Yes and Gentle Giant,...you get my ghist, just loads of stuff others might call pretentious - though I also love me some soul, funk, electronica etc. ), I do prefer jacob's more focused, intimate songs, with him singing and playing solo, and really using his instrumental and harmonisation skills. I also favour some of the tasty, groovy tracks, with his backing singers on lead, rather than the over the top - running from one Instrument to the other - stuff. While that makes for a great little show element live, I feel like the single elements can suffer a bit sometimes. It's not like, as a listener, most of what he does goes over my head. Musically I can enjoy it, most of the time. (Not saying I could replicate it in any form 😂) It's just that I feel a bit of the feeling - and he has loads of it - gets lost along the way. I love musical journeys, but a good journey needs some time.
you can't say "dommy sevs" and expect to get away with it mister
seconding
"Are you criticizing something, or are you asking for a different thing?"
Mic just summed up like 95% of annoying online "critique" these days that purports to be an objective analysis of something but is just someone complaining that something not for them doesn't fit their (often very narrow) tastes.
exactly, it's crazy how so much online discourse (around music at least) boils down to "i don't like this personally"
Well yeah. Music is just about an expression of values - and people often clash over those.
So what you’re saying is don’t criticize anything or anyone’s music? This has been what people have done in relation to music criticism since the dawn of music.
@@withinthrall1445 No
YES!! It's like, you're not the target audience, you didn't need to leave a comment, just stfu
Jacob is a kid in a musical candy shop, sprinting from aisle to aisle, gorging himself on every new and exciting flavor he finds, and experiencing profound joy the whole time. He makes music that he finds interesting or meaningful to himself. He's not trying to show off all the time; he's pushing his boundaries and doing weird stuff because he'd get bored otherwise. As a musician, I wish I could maintain that level of energy and authenticity. I like a decent chunk of his music, but everything about his creative process is fucking inspirational.
Yesss
spot on
Artists are supposed to make art for themselves; not what they think people want them to make. If other people like it; that's a bonus.
That's the exact reason why I don't like his music unfortunately.
There is something to be said about being true to yourself and maintaining the child-like playfulness, but yeah... I did not like his new album at all. Felt like a lot of questionable and confusing choices that felt unwarranted.
But if he's happy, then good for him.
Glazed.
People really hate this dude because of the epic gap between what people are told he is "Mozart" and his music. It's like bringing a comedian on stage saying "next up the funniest man in the world..." The audience is going to go "Oh really? We will see about that."
Not really that big a gap.
I love this point
That's not coming from him, though. And to be honest, most people who are hating on him would get a lot more bored listening to a Mozart sonata than they would a Jacob Collier ballad.
Nahh. I think his music is just really bland and he has a hittable face.
@@CustomercfBland is the last word I would use to describe Jacob lol.
You nailed it when you said, “it depends on what do you go to a musician for” and the subway and beef fried rice example. There’s something for everyone and if he’s not for you, let him be. Those of us who are enjoying what he’s bringing want him to keep bringing it.
Jacob is such a sweet and thrilling and lovely music educator and communicator. His music has always been a hard sell that I've never bought, but I have so much raw respect for the way he talks about and preaches the gospel of music.
Ro Ramdin is the Jacob Collier of Hyperpop /j
Interesting seeing you here, I asked you your opinion on Jacob on a livestream a few weeks ago and you did an impression. It was funny.
Not only that, he gives amazing concerts. You might dislike him ofc, music is not for everyone, but the dude has so much contagious energy. I saw him in Portugal, he gave a 2 hour concert, with non stop energy, engaging with the audience, inviting local musicians to sing along with him. It was a great time, I didn't know him much before (it was in a music festival, he wasn't the headliner) but I became a fan after that concert.
YOU AREN'T SLICK MIC THE SNARE. I CAUGHT THAT ONE FRAME OF YOU HATING ON TRAINING SEASON.
if it's any consolation, I do really like Illusion :))))))
@@MicTheSnare YOU AIN'T SLICK!
@@MicTheSnarethats so crazy i really think training season is dope but illusion just isnt hitting for me
Perfect Illusion is great too
Mathematical AJR is actually a really good way of describing his music imo. Respect his skill though.
He’s not that bad
yall heard ONE SONG n came to that conclusion 😂 . listen to In My Room n ask yourself whether that sounds anything REMOTELY like AJR ROFL
which songs did you hear? @anyway96
If I'm obsessed with both AJR and Jacob Collier, what does that say about my music taste? Asking for a friend 😅
@@PatrickVerst😬😬😬
I'm with most people where Jacob's music is a hit or miss, but when he makes slower-paced pieces of work (which I end to gravitate towards) they're genuinely so pleasant to listen to. I still go back to his cover of "in the Bleak Midwinter" and "I heard you singing" (though that one is more recent)
I saw him a couple weeks ago. I had him in high regard just by watching bits and pieces through the years but I had never listened to any of his albums before so I was wondering if I was gonna be able to connect.
Well.. i can honestly say it was one of the most beautiful experiences I’ve ever had.
The music, the lights, the band, the singers, him playing a bunch of instruments, the energy, his way of interacting with the audience, the choir ( all of us)
Extra talented wonderful soul. I could’ve stayed there 3 more hours.
I guess you cannot like everything the world has to offer. I’m just glad my subjectivity allows me to appreciate, enjoy and be touched by Jacob’s music because he is a supremely talented unicorn.
Discorse in general online has gotten unbearably hateful and aggressive
In terms of music stuff, a lot of the bigger UA-camrs that talk about music are extremely toxic, including their fanbases.
I agree
@@pentexsucks43 100% agree. I feel like a good chunk of the harassment to Jacob this album can be directly tied to Brad Taste and his vid
@@agora_the_rapperyeah i honestly have issues with brad, dont hate him but he still gets way too overly negative for the video and stuff and it feels... odd. some of his reviews just have this odd aura to them
@@agora_the_rapper definitely, I've been a subscriber to his channel for the last 4-5 years, and the vibe of his channel seems to just get more negative as he gets older. Revisiting his older content when he was so much younger seems so much more positive, even on things he didn't like at all. Especially with how big his fanbase has gotten in the last couple of years. It's sad to see
I just love music that sounds like it was fun to make
sometimes it's that simple lmao
Underrated comment
This is called not having a taste in MUSIC. You have a taste in fun or something like that. It's all good. But I'm sure you would not simply eat a dish just because it seems it was fun to cook it.
@@AppearDispairDisappear-xi1gtbut that's such a lazy point of view when there's so many ways you can enjoy stuff. Why even categorize art for being good or bad? Seems like a pointless way of looking at things to me. You don't have to enjoy a dish only for how it tastes, you can also look at it, or focus on the smell or textures
@@criburgir I do not disagree. I enjoy Collier, as a virtuoso. But his album is awful music, according to my taste. Are we allowed to have a taste or any criticism of his music is laziness?
The only thing that actually frustrates me about Jacob's music is that, when it DOES hit for me (which isn't as often as I'd like), it's transcendent. For example: so much of Djesse Pt. 2 specifically doesn't work for me, but the closing track "Time to Rest Your Weary Head" might legitimately be one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard in my life. It's not a talent showcase, but just a quiet & honest emotional expression. Just Jacob & his guitar. Others may disagree, but I think that song is his opus.
I agree that the softer, simpler acoustic stuff has more impact for many people but that one is absolutely a talent showcase of theory and microtonality . If you understood how incredibly complex and sophisticated that one is it might blow your mind. The things is you FEEL it but don't know it's happening. Moon River uses the technique too.
ua-cam.com/video/Xd54l8gfi7M/v-deo.html
That’s one of my favorite stripped down songs from vol. 2.
I feel the same but about Moon River. Nothing ever in my life moved me as much musically as that cover, the amount of emotions I felt the first times I heard it were just incredible. I bought a keyboard and started learning to play just for that song.
My favorite song of his as well. The main reason for me why that is, is that the lyrics are actually well written. Usually he can't write good lyric to save his life. But in this song he has some gems like this:
"I long to see the things we saw
When we were young and could not see so clearly
When all the world was just a blur of colored lines
That I'd trace most sincerely back to you"
I think he would really benefit from having an actual poet write his lyrics for him, and focus on the music part. He already collaborates so much, why not in writing?
Anyone who uses the term, “opus” is pretentious.
Tbh Mic I think something immensely helpful would be a video talking about ‘production’ and ‘mixing’ and ‘mastering’- because 9/10 times people seem to use those words interchangeably or are just wrong about what they mean. Something to think on!
When you said that music isn't necessary, you kind of missed the point of the question "is it necessary?". It doesn't mean if it is necessary to us as human beings, it is about aesthetics. It means, is it necessary to convey the aesthetic quality that it is intended to convey, or does it fill the space without fulfilling purpose of further the expressiveness of the piece? Does it hold a function within the structure?
This is a very simple ontological mistake.
Also it leads you to reject art critique outright. Everything becomes an absolute relativization of aesthetics. By that metric you can not criticize any art, because you "gotta meet it where it's at". In other words, art is this self-contained thing that cannot be critiqued in any way, because as soon as you do that, you add a subjective standpoint that is outside the product itself. This is something that I do not agree with in the least. A part of the art of critiquing art is comparison to its history, not because it is "necessary" but because it is inescapable" and a critique of it's structure and the way it chooses to break with it.
And example, in my point of view, is the way Jacob Collier chooses to create a collage of different styles and genres within a single album or even a single song, without actually breaking with the established traditions within those genres. This makes the structure of the song fragmented and incomplete, the elements in it don't blend together to create a coherent stylistic whole. This is why the critique of using the mastering of technique to mask the lack of development of an aesthetic is, again in my view, largely correct. And the question "is it necessary?" is also correct. Does it serve an aesthetic function to have a metal ending to a pop song? Perhaps, but it depends how it is done. Is it done in a way where the pop song and the metal outro blend together in a single expressive whole, or is it done simply to show that you can play several genres as a matter of technique, making the piece sound disjointed? In Jacob Colliers case, I'd argue that it is the latter.
This is the best explanation of Collier I've read.
@@snakeweirdo This is an absolutely _beautiful_ way to put it.
Personally, I disagree entirely with the final conclusion - I think Jacob's aesthetic is his lack of one. I often go to his work with the explicit goal of being surprised, being caught off-guard. The moment in 100,000 Voices you mentioned still surprises me every time, even when I know it's coming, because I've never heard another pop song abruptly shift into heavy metal (and theres a whole nother thing to be said about how i think it leads into She Put Sunshine in a really cool way)
Either way though, you're absolutely right about art and critique by itself!
its necessary tho. jacob put it there to tell a story for the album, and it is also there to make it less boring for him. the aesthetic is whatever he finds interesting
I hope you one day experience joy in some way, shape or form.
my thoughts on Jacob Collier have always been, and will always be the same.
"wow that guy sure can work a blowdryer and some gel can't he"
If that's your level, you roll with it. Well done.
Still doesn't come even remotely close to what Wayne Static used to do with his hair😆
Nah, he just has Ray William Johnson hair. It's genetic.
ah and he has an insane wardrobe
you hit the nail on the head.
I used to be a big fan of his music, because i was studying music at the time and could relate to Jacob's drive to want to know how all of it works. His approach to music has been very influential to how I think about music
At some point I started looking for different things in music though, and Jacob's music didn't really click anymore for me.
Funnily enough, I've been listening to a lot of Big Thief and Adrianne Lenker, which i would say are pretty different from Jacob's music. But Jacob himself is actually a huge fan of Adrianne.
Not everyone might like his music, but his public spotify playlist has a lot of good music in it.
Same here, I found myself listening to his second djesse album on repeat back in high school when I was in music studies. He is a very inspiring creator, but as I grew my musical palette I just started to lose a lot of that connection I once had with his music.
It happened to me with a lot of bands since I started exploring musically when I was 13, incredible bands that are normally considered some of the best in the world, they don't click with me as much as before, it's something that just happens, All types of art eventually have the chance to bore us, no matter how incredible it seemed to us at the time, but that is not an argument that their music has never been as good as we thought, it is just a testament that we change and look for different emotions.
i think when people say "Jacob makes Disney music," they're saying that his really popular stuff has this very slick feel to it, almost too polished, too theatrical, like AJR or some band like that
it's basically a growing backlash against alt-pop and the UA-cam art pop musician
also, it's rich that Jacob Collier's getting chewed out now when Cardiacs have become more popular than ever before, with Sing to God quickly gaining canonization, and black midi finally getting airplay in the US
Yeah I know what they mean by Disney, theatercore is a term I heard once that I thought was accurate in a comical way 😂
@@Malkmusianfulblack midi got airplay?!?!?!?
@@jackpaint6968 yeah, "slow" and "sugar/tzu" got played a lot on college radio
Why are Disney or theatre kid vibes in music so fervently hated though I don’t get it
My cellphone ringtone is a short clip from his Flintstones.
I was super impressed that this young teenager could put together these convoluted music videos in his bedroom. He's grown up a bit since then.
I have seen him live once and enjoyed when he conducted the audience singing acapella harmonies. Of course, that's one of his trademarks now.
He has a very deep understanding of harmony. And he's able to play a huge range of instruments with great skill.
I'm sort of in awe of his abilities, yet I don't listen to his music much. I'm impressed but can only take so much. Eventually, the intricacies becomes too intense.
Even though I haven't listened to a ton of his music, when I do, it makes me feel nice. But I can only take small portions.
It feels to me that he has created a new genre: Jacob Collier music.
I understand the overload u stated. I get to that point too. Im exhausted by the end of 'bridge' when I hear/sing to it a couple few times. So much to take in and chew on! Then I get hungry again and want more! Lol
all of my friends are musicians, they all feel the same "its brilliant but i dont enjoy it" i feel alone on an island, cant think of an artist in my 40+ years that has made records ive found as captivating. I get so enjoyably lost in his works.
Never got the hate around this guy, he just seems like he’s really passionate about teaching music theory to the masses and that’s something I can always get behind
2:29 also was not expecting to see the Quinton Reviews Henningverse video to pop up here. I’m currently seven hours in and I’ve been watching a bit every day since it came out, please send help lol
I gave up at 30, it's just too much for me and the schneiderverse video still left me blown away
Rip the Henningverse video
@@Crimson_Cheetah I know!!! I’m devastated that I didn’t get to finish it
@@KealohaHarrison Same! I think I was only about 7 hours in too.
1:12 word of advice: always remember to log into your alt account if you're going to do something this inane and embarrassing on the face of it.
in fairness, i don't know if many parrots are technologically savvy enough to make alt accounts. im surprised it even managed to post one comment to be honest.
Good one @benburke3015!!!
@@firegodmc1080 it was very difficult
That is my alt account... how did you know???
@@awildparrot719 Good One @awildparrot719!!!!
I think a big part is that the online music "critic-oriented" community seems to be based around music that has some kind of deep emotional negative depths to it, which Jacob Collier's music just, well, doesn't have at all. He presents himself as a very cheerful, happy guy who wants to express this happiness in a larger than life way. The "thousand of voices singing together" shtick as one example, as that immidiately sets the tone for the fourth volume.
It's also the reason it mostly doesn't really click with me either. I also prefer my happy music to be mostly like "everything is shit all the time but I just had five seconds of moderate joy for the first time in many months, so maybe there might be something to live for other than the constant running away from my almost crippling fear of pain".
There seems to be a mostly unspoken conception that art must be about some kind of trauma, or otherwise it's shallow, which does make some sense from a western art history perspective. Tortured artist archetype and the tragic loss of Man's innocense and all. It's kind of an interesting question what role happiness has or could have in art. But I'm probably the wrong person to answer that lol.
This. Fucking sick and tired of people believing that good art must be miserable.
I think the thing about joyful art is you can't fake it. Green Day's most recent album is a good example of this, where Billie Joe sings about hot rods and the 80s and he just clearly doesn't actually care about it. But then you go back to songs about the same kinds of things from 70 years ago and they feel much more earnest and true.
You can't fake good art. You have to really believe everything you put into it. You have to believe that your art is special, or it won't be special. Jacob Collier clearly does believe in the beauty of those thousands of voices, and that's I think why it works, at least for me.
I don't think people really expect music to be sad and depressing all the time, I think people just are not kin to the whimsical and fantastical nature that Jacob presents.
Like, twice he made a video that was like "You know, music can be anything, nothing's truly bad, there's always potential" or giving his personal life philosophy, both very positive in nature, and people responded like "ehm, what about this obviously terrible album/artist??" or calling him presumptuous/privileged for having a carefree attitude about life.
well critics love 100 gecs, so...
@@DavidRiceInfinityNovaWould it be ironic if you wrote a song about this?
I was just exposed to his live version of Bridge over Trouble Waters yesterday. I was floored by it, it was incredible and for me (as a choir kid) was an incredible rendition that used his synth-style to highlight the INCREDIBLE voices he was with. Watching him love what he was doing and the fun he had was infectious, so I went to his instagram page. He had the setlist announcement for his DJesse4 album pinned. In this, every song that featured someone else, those artist, not Jacob, said their names. Small touch, but to me spoke volumes as to who Jacob could be - a dude who loves to make random, beautifully diverse tracks with a bunch of talented artists. I loved the album. It was random, but something about it was so impactful for me. It's just really nice to be exposed to and enjoy the product of a guy who just loves making music and isn't afraid to be wild and weird about it. His creativity, infectious positivity and joy on stage is what I enjoy the most about him so far, I'm looking forward to going to his other albums and seeing what comes next!
Very good video by the way man.
I adore Jacob’s music. How often are we surprised by what we listen to? Listening to his songs for the first time often leave me crying or confused. But even his more pop/melodic songs are peppered with surprises. That kind of curiosity and interest to stretch your ear to what sounds good is so exciting to me, and probably why I love his work.
I used to be very into jacob collier when I was a teenager but I find that his work just feels weightless to me now. A lot of his music points to emotions but rarely manages to actually make me feel them. Like, nothing ever goes wrong in a Jacob Collier track. He never misses a beat, his voice never cracks, pitch deviations feel calculated to the cent. It feels like he could walk into traffic with his eyes closed and the cars would simply miss him.
As for why people hate him so much, I think there's probably a class element to it. You hear the accent, you see his dozens of expensive instruments, you think about how much free time and access to education you'd need to learn everything he's learned and you realise just how few people ever had the opportunity to become the kind of artist he is. I think his style of maximalism can feel kinda insulting. When so many genres are defined by the material conditions that birthed them, and maximalism is defined by its lack of limitation, it can feel like his music is made for people who don't know how much a loaf of bread costs.
i am the opposite, when i was younger (not a teenager.....cause i am older than Jacob) i didn't like him very much, i wasn't feeling anything from his music, now i really like his stuff, because i can finally hear his emotions he puts in his music, and this works even retroactively as well.
I agree, I think he's so good at music theory and making everything make sense that even the most chaotic tracks feel calculated. And sometimes the best part of music is when you hear emotion and soul, and sometimes his work can lack that sort of emotional depth. Jacobs music is kind of like what math sounds like as a song.
Hm, the class thing is an interesting perspective. i’m not sure whether or not I agree. I might have to ponder that a bit.
I think the social class argument makes sense, but what parent wouldn't like to give their child a childhood like that? When we finally find a person who had such parents we hate them for being luckier than us? That to me just shows a lack of empathy.
I think you're right. Very insightful.
This is a great general counter to people's complaints about just about everything these days. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Nobody has to like anything. But "I don't like this" and "this is bad" get too confused too often.
This needs to be the highlighted comment.
People need to take better account of their words and language and how they communicate ideas. Language is a precious tool and all that we really have to understand one another on any meaningful level, so it's exhausting and defeating when the world around you doesn't seem to give a flying shit about nuance and specificity (when it conveniently benefits them to not care about that, of course).
Saying "this is bad" is also completely fine, but then you'd have to be actually be able to say why it's bad. Otherwise it's meaningless.
@@OrgaNik_Music It's not okay when it comes to art, because it's all subjective, unless something in the thing you criticize is literally immoral or hurts someone or a community personally. So most of the time no, it's not fine.
I think discourse around him is very similar to the movie Death of Stalin...in that everyone pretends like everything is all a-ok and won't tell the truth or take correct action because they are afraid to get Stalin angry. it is the same thing, everyone has to pretend like Jacob is a prodigy and a genius and afraid to say he just sucks.
@@arunashamal Thank you for going to bat for the point I made.
This is an example of how way too much of almost *every* discourse is taken up by people who just get pleasure out of being mean, usually because they want the satisfaction of other people agreeing with their take or thinking they're funny.
I think Jacob Collier is one of those artists who sort of attracts those people by being earnest and playful. It takes a lot of courage to do what he does in the way he does, by mixing things that don't often go together and doing it in a way that's completely sincere (not hidden behind irony or pastiche like Zappa or Primus or even The Beatles would usually do).
I don't think that necessarily makes for better music, but I notice when someone puts themselves out there in that way, just doing what they want with a sort of childlike disregard for how cool it is or how it fits stylistically, that's exactly what attracts the kind of person who says "cringe" to everything they dislike.
yep, those are the type of people who purposefully say overly negative things or just an insult straight up, then reply shit like "womp womp" to make themselves feel like they won the argument for not caring
they're everywhere on the internet, and now we pretty much can't have any respectful discussions anymore. it's just mindless insults and arguing for the sake of having the last laugh
Jealousy is a horrible thing. Thanks for that
Seeing him live changed my opinion on the music. But I’ve always loved how unapologetically in love with music he is. He’s always just having a good time and that’s inspiring to me.
that colin and samir interview is literally the best interview ive ever seen hes such a personality
yeah but is a shame that they choose that title. 10/10 interview tho
Despite only listening to 2-3 of his songs regularly, Jacob Collier live was a transcendental experience.
Yeah I feel that way too. I can’t really sit through any of his albums but I would give just about anything to see one of his live shows again.
I never understood how people struggle with the difference between “I like/dislike x” and “x is good/bad”
i feel you
I guess I am one of those people. I would argue those are the same thing, unless you think people are saying that bad = "morally bad" which I don't think is what people mean. If somebody tells me "chocolate ice cream is bad" and "vanilla ice cream is good" I view that as synonymous with "I like vanilla ice cream and dislike chocolate ice cream".
Their the exact same thing. How can something be objectively good in one sense and then subjective at the same time? It can’t.
For example person A may not like some of the most poplar and “good” heavy metal music as it could just be noise to them. But person B could rlly enjoy and see the merit in it. They have both consumed and interpreted the elements that make up the art and come to different conclusive feelings of it. This could be for a number of reasons including culture and/or more personal complex reasons but it does not matter they are both entitled to interpret the art differently and express that interpretation differently. How can Metallica make objectively good art? Well sure they can “objectively good” metal music but what exactly is that? What is the criteria for that? And how is it just cause it’s realised in what it’s trying to be does it make it objectively good? And who decides that?
I can keep going forever but it’s just pointless. Music is completely subjective and there is no “this is objectively good but I don’t like it” that can’t make any sense
@@alexh3143
(1) “Their the exact same thing.”
No. They aren’t. Show the capacity for thought. The quality of a thing, and a person’s opinion of a thing, are two totally different things. One has to do with the actual thing itself. The other has to do with an outside actor’s view of the thing. How one views a thing, and the thing itself, are separate.
1+1=2. No matter what my opinion on the math is, that is the math. It doesn’t matter if I like or dislike 1+1=2, it is simply the case that 1+1=2.
(2) “For example… who decides that?”
This is a perfect example of why I am correct. Thank you for supporting what I said. You are demonstrating the exact point I was making.
Whether or not two people like, or dislike, a given piece of music has 0 to do with the actual quality of the music itself. And you do a great job at demonstrating why.
(3) “I can keep going forever.”
Please. Every time you say something you further support what I said. Go ahead.
But it is kind of pointless in the fact that you say you disagree with me but you end up just supporting what I said. It is kind of odd of you
@@jloiben12 well look you can be passive aggressive making attempts to insult me just cause I have a separate opinion to you go ahead that’s your problem not mine. Can i ask however what these objective elements of music how does a piece of art succeed at developing them?
one thing i will say is that i saw jacob live a few years ago - it was the first concert i went to alone (none of my friends were interested for reasons in this video lol) and i've never seen a more magical, respectful space, where everyone was just there for a good time and to sing some songs. when he did the audience participation it was just amazing. even if i ever stop listening to his music, i won't forget that feeling
That album has a some really good songs and others that feel like they will rip a hole through your head.
I think his bigger, more bombastic songs can feel excessive, but god damn some of the quieter tracks on Vol 4 are GORGEOUS (Little Blue, Summer Rain, Never Gonna Be Alone)
Some parts of life are excessive and sometimes in amazing ways. Having that in music also with unlimited freedom can be insanely invigorating.
Never Gonna Be Alone paints an emotion in which I would like to live forever. so peaceful and calm.
Living in a country with high crime rates where you cannot go out on the street without fear of being robbed, to the point of constantly having a broken cell phone in your pocket to give it to potential thieves, those songs give me a level of peace that is difficult for me to achieve in the real world.
SUMMER RAIN. You are so right here. Those songs are the highlights for me. Makes me appreciate the crazy stuff too. Nothing sounds the same to me
i think he doesn’t really give a shit if people like his music, but it’s ironic considering that people act like he is trying soooo hard to impress them or something. like maybe the dude just makes what he thinks is cool
well said .. well saiddd... Everything you said is truueeee
he has said himself that he makes music he thinks feels good for him
@@NakatesXwhich is perfect
@@ILOVETHEHOLYLAND indeed
He makes dog shit
9:17 which is why the ranking and strict categorization of music needs to be abolished in favor of genuine feelings towards art
"Are you criticizing something or asking for a different thing?" YES! Well put! Thank you!
I also find it hard to connect with most of his music, but to me the stripped experience of his tiny desk during the pandemic left space for the melodies, grooves and harmonies to shine through and get me engaged. And his concerts are a lot of fun too, definitely recommend, especially if you're a musician.
I'd love to see him work with a strong lyricist like Bernie Taupin/Elton or Nick Hornsby/Ben Folds. I don't have a problem with his lyrics, but it feels like that aspect of his music is less elevated than the others as a result of him being SO good at everything else. Ben Folds is a great lyricist but his work with Nick Hornsby provided us something different.
Not that its a requirement (just got to that part of the video lmao) but.... I'd like to see it? More a possibility that's worth exploring than an outright criticism.
In defense of Djesse Vol 4 (and the supposed soullessness of his music):
I may not enjoy every track on the album but I cried when I first heard Bridge Over Troubled Water and sobbed when I first heard Little Blue and World O World.
To me, the storytelling in his music has always been within the harmony. Maybe I’m biased as a musician and being sort of fluent in the language, but even if you took away the lyrics, I can still understand what he’s trying to say just by listening to the harmony and how it relates to the melody.
Also, Jacob, as a person, is the kind of man I’ve always wanted to be-kind and endlessly optimistic. I honestly don’t think he wakes up each day just being positive by default; rather, I feel like he chooses positivity every time despite whatever inconvenience his day may bring.
100%, Much of the emotional message of his music takes place in its harmony/melody. I am not a musician who has studied academically, but I like music enough to try to understand by actively listening the relationship between chords and the emotions that each chord and progression of chords generate when I listen to music, and in my opinion his management of harmony is on another level, not only technically, but emotionally as well.
For whoever is reading this, it is not necessary to study music or know theory to feel those emotions in harmony (although having studied clearly can help a lot).
Respectfully, his harmonic storytelling is the exact problem I have with Jacob’s music. When every chord has a million extensions and diatonic clusters, they all start to blend together and the story gets lost. To paraphrase The Incredibles, “when every chord is super, none of them are”. I feel like the harmonic stunts and tricks he uses would have a lot more impact if he was more judicious and used them in service of the song’s message rather than using them for their own sake.
@@LoserUser72This sounds like a meaningless criticism imho
@@olivercharles2930 okay, and?
@@LoserUser72🤓
I will never understand the hate that Perfect Illusion catches
I think it was the marketing of it. Gaga marketed Joanne as her most personal body of work, and did the whole documentary around it, etc. and the album doesn't quite live up to it. Similar to Katy Perry and Witness, except Witness was actually bad, while Joanne was fine enough.
yeah especially coming from Michael Snare who usually doesn't seem to indulge in the hating on music to be funny thing like some others, like it's really not that bad.
The discourse is getting more toxic, because discourse IN GENERAL is getting more toxic, and extreme. Sad... :(
I describe him to friends as a musician's musician. I don't know enough about music to fully appreciate the magic of Collier. A live concert is electric. Love him
I think Jacob Collier is a prodigiously talented musician, but I don't always click with his music as much as I'd like to
👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
But when i click, damn!
A musician, not an artist.
You genuinely changed my mind and showed how I let my insecurity of my music ability cloud my judgement on Jacob. Thank you Mic Snare.
hell yeah, you don't have to like his music, but he's a cool dude, I recommend the interview "we interview the Mozart of Gen Z" even though the title is really annoying, it is a great interview to get to know him as a human.
Ive realised he is perfectly fine its just his fanbase that is insufferable
@@mignobI guess I am biased, but I don't really think that is true??
@@olivercharles2930 honestly insufferable was a bit of a strong word just annoying
it's odd how negative opinions on jacobs music changed from "it's not my type of music" to "his music only has theory and no soul"
that's how opinions on the internet in general has become, it's always "this shit sucks, everyone except me has shit taste" instead of "i don't like it"
I think it is like with the super gifted kids you hear about. They are supposed to have an IQ greater than Einstein but decades later they have disappeared into obscurity. That is what Colliers music is to me. Just another super gifted kid that mistakes experiments for music but has found a was to marked it.
From the very beginning I always thought his music seemed very disconnected like it didn’t have any “soul” to it. And I was saying that years ago. It’s incredibly impressive without a doubt but there’s just something missing to it and I can’t put my finger on it other than using terms like “soul” even though obviously I know he’s making it from his own creative and artistic expression. I just think that it’s so technical to the point where at least for myself it lacks any sort of good cohesion to make it a good song
making him a good songwriter but I’ve always thought he’s an exceptional producer
@@lehuydang3576 People can say they don’t like it if their reasoning is they don’t feel like it has soul as long as they know that it’s their own opinion and not some objective statement
What if Jacob was actually an AI and his fame was just a social experiment?
His Djesse 4 show was one of the most magical live music experiences I have ever witnessed. His performance, the ridiculously talented band members, the stage scenery and lighting were all synced up perfectly. The live music hits very differently than the studio recordings
You'll never meet a hater that does more than you. All these self anointed critics that probably can't align 3 chords together and yet judge other people's music... Jacob is being himself and you gotta respect him for that! So much talent
This was a such a rich exercise in actual constructive criticism 💚
MIC GOT NEW GLASSES WOO WOO
I preferred his old glasses tbh but if he sees better than W for him
10:15 yeah if you show this to anyone who actually listens to metal i have a good feeling a WHOLE LOT of them would describe it as disney esque...
I think you'd be surprised.
it's just his smug, middle-class face ...that's the core of the controversy. he even makes music that sounds exactly like his smug middle class face. actually explains the whole thing. even explains why Adam Neely polyrhythms are OK and Jacob Collier ones are annoying. Adam is understated and has a sense of shame, whereas Jacob has no such thing and is overstated. in short, it's the pomposity of it all, which gets exagerated when lauded by musical legends and YT creators etc etc
caveat: i thought In My Room was pretty good and the Djesse series has it's moments
I would categorize myself as a Jacob Collier superfan. I've been following his work since Djesse Vol 2, and I've been incredibly fascinated by all of his work, new and old. I think he brings such a unique and exciting perspective to music, and while some of his songs/ideas can be complicated and noisy, it's always a treat to delve into something you might not fully understand but appreciate.
That being said, I can understand why most folks generally wouldn't mesh with his sound. I've heard him labeled as "the musician's musician," which makes sense. Most of his music is littered with complex harmonies and microtones and several musical genres/styles all layered on top of each other. It's a lot. Sometimes a lot is great, but not everyone wants all that.
The avid JC haters get on my nerves, though. Collier is just a guy who loves music and everything surrounding it, and his whole goal in making music is to share that love with as many people as possible. Sure, he wears bright ass colors and jumps around and says quirky stuff, and that might not be your cup of tea (it isn't always mine), but at the very least you can't deny his talent. His music isn't "trash" or "gay" or "autistic", it just isn't for you.
Collier has always struck me as a Musician’s Musician. Not that “his music requires a very high iq to understand”, but that the music he makes is what a lot of musicians love to listen to. It’s Weird and Out There™ in ways that musicians in particular love, and the fact that all the technical skill and musical craft is front and center while still having an audience beyond music nerds is incredible. I think the wide selection of collaborations he’s done just goes to show just how much musicians of all styles like him.
Anyway I’m a big fan, and honestly had no idea people hated him
Idk. I'm a music maker (I make music on Ableton Live, though I wouldn't call myself exactly a musician anymore, as I cannot for the life of me play synths well or even the flute), and I have always thought his music is infinite potential thrown into creations that are technically coherent but, frankly, somewhat meaningless.
@@radiofloyd2359 I also see his music as just a chaotic melting pot of ideas. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially when you yourself are a musician. I see it more like "here you go, here are 100000 musical ideas, all played in couple of minutes. Many of them you hadn't heard before. Take the ones that you like go do something with them ".
@@zugrath16 But the thing is that the musical ideas are kinda boring, because they fail to express much of anything, really.
@@radiofloyd2359 I think there's a big difference between musical ideas being "boring" and "something that doesn't appeal to you". I definitely wouldn't call his music boring. From a technical perspective he does a lot of things that are interesting. But if you don't like it that's totally fair.
@@radiofloyd2359 what is meaning? Is abstract expressionist visual art meaningless because it is abstract? Must meaning be obvious? What is She Put Sunshine about, anyway? I've listened to it about 100 times and I'm still thinking about that.
When I first learned about Jacob Collier, not liking him seemed cool. Now so many people don't like him, liking him seems cool now
Nah, isn't cool.
its very funny to say this when the colin and samir interview calls him "the mozart of gen z" in the title
A lot of people like him though…
Statistically most people like him.
I love some of his tracks, others not so much. I am in awe of his knowledge and work ethic!
My biggest problem with him is not with him but with his fans calling him a genius of overhyping him. Good vid Mic!
I consider myself guilty of having said this more than once, I am going to try to change the way I say it and constantly clarify that it is just my opinion.
@@m.dave2141
but... he is a genius? It is honestly baffling to me how much offense people take to this fact. What, you think einstein wasn't a genius to?
preeeetty safe to say he's a genius though. A technical one for sure, he can play everything.
One nitpick is that you say “that’s not the point of his music” - honestly it doesn’t matter what the intention is. What matters is the interpretation. I could make a song full of slurs and say that my intention wasn’t to be hateful but it doesn’t mean much. Having bad lyrics is a perfectly valid critique and it actually doesn’t have to be compared to other artists who you claim focus on their lyrics more than Jacob. Who is to say? Only the listener
the katamari music around 10:00 got me confused thinking i had a katamari soudtrack tab that started playing lol
i feel like jacob is someone id love to have a conversation with but don't really care to listen to one of his albums with all the way through lol
I think a lot of Jacob's musical insights are really interesting. Like one time I had to explain the circle of fifths to someone as "the color wheel but for music", but later I had to stop and think about how much of a metaphor that actually is. Color and pitch are both determined by frequency, so maybe there's a correlation. Then I saw Jacob talk about adding notes to a chord from the left or right side of the circle of fifths to change the brightness of a chord with what he described as a "light" and "dark" side and I was like "Holy shit!" because it's the same way with the color wheel and cool and warm tones. I don't know if that connection has ever been stated but I've never seen anyone talk about that before.
You might like to look up Milton Mermikides. He's a musician/academic, and an excellent commentator on music ideas and theory. He uses similar dark and light imagery to explore these ideas. He's doing an excellent lecture series at the moment for Gresham College (published on their UA-cam channel) and his own UA-cam channel and website are fascinating.
There's a guy on UA-cam whose first and only video (at the time) was just him badmouthing Jacob. That's what he decided to build his entire channel off of. It's really sad. Especially when he didn't have good points. He says his clothes are dumb and he's not a good musician. And he had like 2 examples of him playing something live that didn't work very well. Like one instance of him messing up in front of people takes away all of his musicianship. The hate for him is almost as extra as Jacob himself. But yeah, he's popular, he's getting attention, he's gonna get hate no matter what he does.
and what's funnier is that most people's hate towards Jacob's music is that it is TOO perfect and doesn't have any single mistake but then he does commit a mistake live this guy shits on him for "not being a good musician" lol
Saw Jacob's show yesterday. Well, firstly there's nothing to compare it with (including the crowd - you don't find thousands of such people gather at the same place often. You know, it's when you nod and smile to everyone automatically and you get that "they know that you know too" feeling. But secondly, there's a huge difference - like another dimension- between the tracks/youtube videos of him and live versions of the same songs. I really wish that after the current tour a high quality video/audio of the concert will be released as an album.
I am one of those people who loves his music and listen to it all the time. I can see why it would not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it just clicks with my brain. I love how cray cray it is. I also think Jacob is a wonderful person and someone who is so kind and insightful - he’s a fabulous person and his energy just does make me more positive. His lyrics are gorgeous and flow from that same spirit 😊 I also think art is necessary - we need to feed our soul or we wither away! I reject the question whether Jacobs art is necessary because it’s arrogant for someone to decide what art is necessary. Jacobs music feeds the souls of many !
Jacob Collier is the Rick and Morty of the music world. any criticism of him for a long time was brushed away as "you just aren't musically smart enough to enjoy the complexity of what he makes" and that attitude is cringe as shit. he's slapped on this giant untouchable pedestal and plenty of people hate his stuff just because of that reputation
I love his work for its undeniably unique sound, but above all I absolutely adore his mentality about music and creativity in general.
I mean lets be real... there is something wrong with you if you don't like this man's crazy ass music.
What I like most about Djesse 4 is the simplicity that permeates it. Every song has some element of simplicity, like the stillness of Never Gonna Be Alone and Summer Rain, the hymn-like beginning of World O World, or the fact that Bridge Over Troubled Water is a cover of Bridge Over Troubled Water. The two obvious exceptions are 100,000 Voices (the overture) and Box of Stars (the climax).
Maybe I also just relate to it as a fellow 29-year-old music school graduate.
I don't really understand the hate towards djesse vol 4, 100,000 voices, little blue, wherever i go, Cinnamon Crush (amazing song), Summer Rain (really beautiful song), A Rock Somewhere (instrumentally incredible), Never Gonna Be Alone (one of the best), Bridge Over Troubled Water (obviously ), Box Of Stars Pt. 1, Box Of Stars Pt. 2 (uses one of his best melody lines in a sonic exploration of genres that is simply too interesting to consider bad), World O World (a great closing of the 4 albums and a stage in his life), the album, despite not being for everyone, has incredible experiences. I think that the more pop songs prevent people from giving their other songs a real chance.
Say what you will about his music, but what Jacob Collier is doing really well is making the kind of music he wants to hear. He's not making albums to try and appeal to specific types of people or to do anything other than be true to himself... Okay, so the result is not for everyone, but thats fine because the point is you can clearly see an artist creating without any barriers in their way whilst being completely authentic, thats true artistry and very few people are doing that these days especially not people signed to major labels.
Perfect❤
My boyfriend took me to a concert and wanted to keep it a surprise.. i had to trust him. Turned out to be JC and I had never really listened to his music. It was an amazing night in KC and now I'm a big fan, listening to all the albums.
I was at Jacob's concert at LA's Greek theatre last night and was blown away-not just by the music but by the diversity of the crowd. Just about every age and kind of human being was represented there, including quite a few Boomers like me who theoretically should not "get" his ADHD/genre-wandering music. But he electrified everyone. It does him a disservice to compare him to Mozart. Nobody needs those kind of expectations... not even Mozart. He's a talented musician and songwriter who is generous to his band and knows how to uplift a crowd. And I'm grateful to know that he's got a long career ahead of him.
Why is the discourse getting more toxic? Because internet.
For whatever reason, I keep confusing Jacob Collier with Jacob Sartotius, and Jacob Sartotius with Bryan Stars.
Honestly, I think Collier's biggest flaw is that he's too clean. Black Midi is another highly technical British artist with strange vocals and lots of instruments, but their songs are about fucked-up stuff and the arrangements often lean into dissonance and atonality.
I think one point this video leaves out is that a lot of people just like music that sounds familiar to them, and Jacob really enjoys writing music that sounds new and different. Some people *really* don't like to be challenged, and are quick to attack anyone they don't understand.
His music never really clicked with me before, though I appreciated his talent from a respectful distance. But Vol. 4 feels fundamentally different to me. Little Blue, She Put Sunshine, Never Gonna Be Alone, Witness Me... these tracks (and more) feel so much more *accessible* than his earlier work, while still being so musically unique and creative. It still took me a few listens to wrap my head around everything that's going on in those tracks, but they keep getting better each time I hear them.
I'm really curious to see where he goes next - I hope it's more like this, although given his love of novelty I'm not holding my breath :)
1:23 That comment really didn't age well, huh.
☠️☠️
As someone who's only mildly familiar with Jacob but has recently grown fascinated with music theory, this was such a cool video! I'm quite impartial to the "less is more" theory as a writer myself, but I also think the beauty of making art is throwing every idea you have into your project and seeing what sticks. After all, that throwaway idea that came to you in a half asleep stupor could be the thing people connect with the most. I may have to take a deep dive of my own into his work this weekend--if I can tear myself away from my novel anyway 😅
Do the albums chronologically (In My Room, DJesse Vol 1, 2, 3, 4) BUT some of the best stuff is online in Mahogany Session or in live performances like the concert ion Lisbon or in his improvised piano solos covers of well known songs. That's where the audience comes in.
@happyendings_15
Who knows guys, he's young yet. Everyone told Mozart his music was too busy early on in his career, and then later he made requiem which is so considered, so delicate, so focused. Jacob Collier has admitted these albums are explorations. If explorative wild music isn't interesting to you, cool. But stick around, he may just pull out a requiem some day.
He's said in interviews before: "people often tell me 'less is more'. but for less to be more, you have to know what more is". He's just figuring out what more is to him right now! (spoiler alert: it means the *most* lmao). I mean, just take The Sun is in Your Eyes for example
No one told Mozart that
I just found his music recently and I can’t stop listening to his version of “how deep is your love” I love how he gets the crowd at his shows involved. I feel like he unifies different music genres into one perfectly messy blend and I can’t get enough of it
Yes, it’s pretty cool hearing the audience choir on the Piano Ballads album! (Smile)
people will always speak against or defend what they cannot understand.
true enjoyment comes from letting the ignorant patronize each other and convince themselves - have fun
His recent live performance of 'Wild Mountain Thyme' is phenomenal, I've watched it so many times. CANNOT get through any of his recorded stuff though. But still seriously respect him and enjoy his content and live clips.
Best thing I've heard about him is "You know how there's always a better person? Well he's where it stops" lmao
😆🤣😂
Everybody loved him and said he was the best, and then everyone hated him and said he wasn't that good, and then there's me who really only likes Sleeping On My Dreams and All I Need and will listen to those two forever
Good video Micheal the snaredrum. But I still think his music is the epitome of “hey guys look what I can do!”
And?
@@RobertAKAMrBag it comes at the cost of his music and any emotional value
@@Ethan-sv3pi
What do you think he should be doing?
Like, as an actual idea, what should Jacob's music sound like without his talent going in the way?
@@tsg_frank I'm not saying he can't use his talent, that's not what I mean at all. I just mean that it feels like all of his songs feel to me like he's trying to flex that talent instead of putting it to good use
@@Ethan-sv3piif you watch his interviews carefully you'll notice that doesn't make sense with how he works and motivates him, which might signal some bias from you.
Harry Styles said in an interview that when working on Harry's House and a little bit in Fine Line, he stopped trying to make the music people wanted to hear, he started making the music he loved, and that he wanted to hear. This is the main reason I fell in love with Jacobs music. Yes he is incredibly talented and yes that can make it a bit much at times, but he is sharing the music he loves, we just so happen to take in enough of it that he could make his life around it. In my personal opinion, he embodies what making music is, not because of the talent, but because of the care and personality. You could say the same about so many other artists too
I too wasn't aware of any controversy in the media. I just booked a ticket for Jacob's concert in Vienna next November because I have the feeling that he is particularly good at the "live music experience" interacting with the audience, having seen a couple videos of that. So I assume it will definitely be a fine evening.
He has a unique perspective, seeing no bounds to music and exploring all the creative possibilities. I think maybe a valid criticism is not honing in on a specific sound as he’s very much a maximalist. The criticisms about him making soulless music is absolutely wild though. If you don’t like it that’s fine, but he has so much passion for what he does and it shows. And the slower tracks he makes are SO beautiful imo, I hope he dedicates more time to that
I will never take any critiques that call the work "cringe" seriously
...based
@@roymarshall_ LMAO
some art has subject matter which needs to be taken seriously and if the piece is cringily executed, can't command respect, solemnity, whatever, then yeah i would say that's a valid complaint. you can say "cringe" is not a moral shortcoming (that's fair) but it absolutely is an artistic one
You should. Plenty of stuff is objectively cringe. As in, large numbers of people physically, involuntarily cringe when they hear it. And that’s a pretty damning criticism that you really should take seriously.
I physically cringe when i hear the metal part on the opening of Djesse Vol 4 album
i have only ever listened to one song from Jacob and that’s his cover of moon river, and you can say whatever about the rest of his music but that song is transcendental
Just seen perform tonight at Atlanta! Amazing performer!
Shoutout to his band and Kimbra (who opened) as well!