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I have a 59K and would not consider the L model. I boondock And my 200 watts of solar and 2000 watt inverter are more than enough. (Inverter cost $400). These things have generators for a reason. But I live in Colorado so heat is usually not a problem. I use the front to watch tv and do computer work all the time, so it works for us. I like the open feel of the K. Also I’m 5’10 and sitting on the toilet does not bump your head. ( you are sitting on the lid pushed all the way back, really?). Love your videos though.
the 59k is a great value; a great layout; a great van - especially for a couple. one of my favorites. the 59KL makes no sense to me for the reasons that you point out. You have plenty of battery power and with solar 95% of your use cases are covered. Maybe if Winnebago offered a 200ah option of lithium that would make a lot more sense than a $25k upgrade. I appreciate you sharing your experience as an actual owner and hope that others read your comment as well. thank you for sharing!
Yeah but can you run your air conditioner from what you have? I have dogs and I would like to leave them in the car if I want to shop a little bit or some thing and leave them for a while and you can’t if it’s real hot out and you don’t have air on and if you’re in a parking lot you really can’t leave your generator running and I will trust doing it anyway
We have to give praise to Winnebago for coming forward with this technology even at this expense. It will get cheaper over time. There are always the early adopters that will buy this stuff and help all of us in the long run.
yep well said Jay. the rv manufacturers need to get real. before adding $25k expenses on ginormous battery banks to run ACs to cool down interiors why not first deal with the heat issue with better coach and cab insulation? better roof insulation? investment in more efficient air conditioning? figure out a way to better utilize the cab AC with ducted cab AC? I could go on. it's just so disingenuous of them. it's a quick and easy way to charge a premium full stop. I hate to be so cynical and heated on the issue but it just irks me to no end.
This review really has me frustrated. First off, making the volta battery the key highlight of this video and not disclosing it's 8 year warranty is frustrating. Also, this vehicle competes with the hymer activ which is priced at 105k after discounts, same as this one. The hymer has a 4500 watt battery, this 8700. The hymer charges with a 12v alternator, this 48 volt. This is why the winnebago charges its batters in 1.5 hours versus the hymers much slower system. And winnebago keeps you charged for twice as long. Many people do want to boondock and vanlife is a reality for many people. For those who don't want to stay at shore power sites or run loud/dirty generators, this is a great investment. I don't see how one can justify a pleasureway for 135k and say look at the cabinets, look at the quality, its so nice. And when a competitor produces the highest quality electrical system say, oh, I would avoid it because who wants to pay 25k for a superior electrical system. Both are equally valid reasons to pay a premium for.
okay I hear what you're saying BUT... my point in the video is that for 95% of buyers they won't ever use the 8700 watt hours of capacity. that's just the truth and so the $25k upgrade is not worth it. you can disagree with me on the point but I will wager that sales of the 59KL will stall due to precisely what I'm saying. the 59KL is a technology wonder and will bring people onto dealer lots (which dealers love) but at the end of the day when it comes to opening checkbooks they will purchase another rig (fine for the dealer). You can't sell a promaster for over $100k and then pretend it's not in premium territory and only offer a 1 year coach warranty and the same stick framing and staples holding cabinets together as you have on the regular 59K. I just disagree that the premise that $25k for an electrical system only upgrade is worth it. I don't think sales will prove that out. but I do appreciate your comment and thank you for sharing it!
Yes, I absolutely love what you do. Do you follow youtuber humble van? I watch all the rv channels and his content is outstanding and presentation is unmatched. I highly suggest you check him out, he does have a pleasure way btw ;). And thank you for doing what you do.
love george. love his channel. he may want me to review his new rig! we'll see! thank you so much for watching. I do value what you're saying and hope that you understand that.
I agree with you on the warranty part. Winnebago claims 8 years for Pure3, but in small print you find that it only covers battery unit, which is only part of the electrical system upgrade. The rest of the components are the same old 1 year, which is completely inadequate for electronics that will be subjected to constant shakes and huge temperature swings all the time. As for resale value, the statistics of hybrid cars with batteries that are much bigger then in Travato show that they surprisingly maintain their value very well in aftermarket. Sure the 10 year warranty by the car manufacturer helps a lot here and Travato needs to provide similar guarantees.
Neil, It doesn’t seem like this video is up to your prior standards. I enjoyed your past videos with a less biased presentation. Question, did you actually look at and use the 59KL in person? The reason I ask is the one button start up also turns on the inverter. I agree from the warranty and build quality of the PW is above reproach, however that comes at a cost. For about the same money (street price not MSRP) one can purchase a 59 KL or a PW Lexor. It all comes down to your needs or wants. I love the build of the Lexor but like the twin beds and rear bath of the 59k. The other thing, PW needs to move into modern time and ditch the absorption fridge. For my needs living in a hot climate the 59KL would be a great option.
I really hope that having a strong opinion doesn't qualify me as biased! For the record the one button does not turn on the inverter. this would be a bad idea as the inverter has a parasitic draw that isn't necessary most of the time. there's a panel on the wall where you turn on the inverter unless they've changed that since my review. i'm sorry this video disappointed you but it was a one off. I couldn't do a normal review because 99% of the KL is exactly the same as the K which I've previously reviewed. I had to focus on the pure 3 system which is the big differentiator. this is the problem with allowing viewers to vote on what episodes that I should do ;-) regarding needs: honestly, how often are you going to camp where you don't have shore power? honestly? I maintain that for most people the numbers I threw out are generous: 1000 hours over 5 years. that just doesn't justify the $25k premium in my book and I believe sales of the KL will prove me correct. but I look forward to being proven wrong! thanks for sharing your thoughts.
In the early build L models you could not turn off the inverter. It just went into standby and came on with the one big button. I believe they have changed that now so you can turn the inverter off.
FogHORNLH is correct. When you turn on the Pure3 system the inverter comes on as a default. If you want it off you have to turn it off at the panel on the rear wall. If in doubt, just phone Winnebago.
I love your honesty! Winnebago needs to stop the hype and get real. They also need a much better warranty. If I am paying that much more for lithium batteries, I want some very nice perks, not just a huge bank of batteries! Get on the ball Winnebago.
I agree magic journey. it's a strange model to me. it's a real premium at $25k more but they don't give you anything else in terms of better build quality, a longer warranty or even a special paint. just the volta system. I really meant what I said in the video. I don't think 95% of us will use that huge battery bank capacity so it's a waste of money in my book. winnebago should have offered a smaller battery capacity then I would have given them a more favorable review but as it stands offering an all or nothing model doesn't make sense to me. not for that price and not for the winnebago quality level.
What I don't understand is Winnebago has the most expensive rv's in pretty much every class but their warranties are terrible. Why is it that manufacturers do not see the benefit of a much better warranty like Roadtrek and others??
Just reviewing some of your old reviews and I'm very impressed on your take on this very expensive upgrade! Hopefully the manufacturers have settled down a bit and are offering a much lower price point. And the battery and inverter technology is getting easier to service I believe. Last point. Love the retro old school video clips although I'm sure most people are not that happy.
Ok, not only are your reviews getting better but your videos are so entertaining! This was a great, helpful video about an rv that’s on my short list. Thanks.
I really appreciate how receptive you are to feedback regarding the channel, clearly showing your desire to continually improve the content. That said, the cartoon clips were overused and the comedy seemed forced. You grew your channel being who you are with a signature style, that’s part of the reason for the subs you have along with great content. Humor is great if it’s random. Neil is Neil, George is George (Humble Road), unique personalities, which is why some channels make it and some don’t. Be yourself. Thank you for the honesty of your reviews and having the courage to tell it like it is, some may disagree with your conclusions but should respect that you don’t only pump out glowing reviews for fear of offending someone. I have been very interested in the trend in lithium power systems such as this but never really weighed the benefits against the high cost. Also having a proprietary, sealed battery module scare me if something goes wrong on the road. Murphy’s law says it all.
varosvapor really appreciate your honesty hear. as you say I need to by myself. that's the lesson here. but, I also have to try new things and see how they go. the whole reason why i'm where i'm at today with my channel is because I haven't feared trying new things. some work out others done! onward and upward!
Neil, in your upcoming video, please take some time to work through the apparent pros and cons of battery configurations. While there may appear to be a theoretical advantage to multiple battery systems, for example, the reality may actually weigh in favor of the single sealed module. It depends on how the manufacturer has structured the internal architecture of the module and the power of its BMS to cope with multiple cell failure. A manufacturer would not offer a single module unless its expected failure rate were vastly lower than a ganged battery architecture. In terms of loss of vacation, failure for either system means a return to base or nearest service center - it's only transport class jet planes that are rated to safely complete a transoceanic journey on just one engine. At least on an RV you can start up the engine and drive home if coach power fails. I offer as an example of this counterintuitiveness multiplexed RV electrical systems. They are arguably more complex than direct-wired systems, and very difficult or impossible to diagnose or repair on the road with just a volt-ohm meter and basic tools. They would have to offer vastly improved reliability for the end user before being adopted. If a module ever does require service or replacement, the return-to-manufacturer service model is indeed highly inconvenient, but every Lithium power system vendor uses this to my knowledge. I drive a hybrid Toyota, and while their system is near-bulletproof, I waited years until the service infrastructure was sufficiently built out before buying in. The problem right now is infant mortality risk with a new product - and the solution is to wait and let the bugs work out.
While true that most of wouldn't have a realistic need for the KL, but there are those that do a LOT of boondocking or going to state and national parks where electricity might not be available. This is admittedly generally a fairly small segment of RVers that could afford it and need it as most would just get a portable generator. For those with the money who don't like the noise of a generator and who do a LOT of camping without electrical hookups, it could be worth getting.
As per usual, an informative review. I have a 2020k w/o the "L" option and it works very well and i cannot complain about the noise caused by the generator. I find to generator/solar/ AGM electrical system to be simple to operate and understand. I also will not complain when my electrical system will need servicing - any tech can service my unit wherever I might be when a breakdown occurs. I have owned three RVs and serviceability was an essential factor when deciding on the excellent K model design. I added an extra solar panel myself for $250 to keep my batteries charged. I also have a Jackery portable 1000w lithium power station if I require additional power - all this works just fine - it is simple - it is cost effective. To be fair, I do love the very cool technology the Volta system represents, and I am confident, Volta systems represent the future of RV power needs. At some point, the delta of costs and serviceability will find just the right costs/benefit sweet spot. For my requirements, I'll keep the 25k and put it to good use in my travel budget.
Love love love this review....that’s what the people at coachhouse are saying too.servicability is too difficult...lithium sounds amazing but in reality maybe not yet.we love our 59k but the platinum 2 is looking better every day.the dinette with a slide and queen size bed in the back looks great for long trips. I’m hoping you get over to Nakomis fla.sometime and do a walkthrough
Honestly I like the cartoon and the other short clips. You still give us great info and that’s why we’re here. Having a sense of humour is fine. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the review. We are looking at the 59G just for 995% travel, Not very much over night. Wanting this for a bathroom, kitchenette, refrigerator. A generator would be all we need. Thanks again.
Great review and I completely agree. Not sure why RV makers keep reinventing the wheel (no pun intended). I split my time between a PL Plateau TS and a 38' Sailboat. Boats use cases are largely the same as RVs. My sailboat is completely self sustaining with 400W of solar and 400ah of Group31 AGM. If I want AirCon and I rarely do plugin or start the generator and I'm sailing 1000 miles south of florida. I'll switch to Lithium Iron Phosphate when the batteries get cheaper but for now I get 400ah for about $800 and they last at least 5 years if taken care of.
EXACTLY Tom! 400ah covers 95% of most people's use cases. and you can get 400ah of lead acid batteries much cheaper than lithium. i'm covering that in my video review of energy systems next week. you speak from experience but unfortunately the RV manufacturers love to play on fear, uncertaintly and doubt and convince people that they need to drop $25k (25 frickin' thousand) on an upgrade that they are rarely going to need. and we wonder why the RV industry has such a bad reputation.
A lithium should last 4 times longer, are half the weight, have a flat power curve, can be run down to 90% charge with no degradation, recharge FULLY in a quarter of the time and are not sensitive to partial charging. When you consider all that they are cheaper and for me they provide a far superior RV experience.
Thanks so much for this video -- I"m still in the researching stage and all the lithium projections seem so amazing -- but this one is definitely worth rethinking.
Great Job 👏🏽 my opinion Lithium is for van life not weekend getaways. So yeah! If you plan on living in your van more POWER makes sense get lithium or pay to plug in somewhere. haven’t made my decision yet but you are helping a lot thank you 😊
Thanks for this information, Neil. Can you do a video on Travato G or GL 2020.5? I love pleasure way, can’t really afford it unless I get a older model. Planning to buy on 2 years and will get. Used 2020 model. 😀
I'm looking at two van options, one is have a custom adventure van build out a van or going the way of a pleasure such as the Travato(which is much cheaper). A custom van can run close to $160K with less comfort. A 600amh lithium power setup with solar runs around $12K at the most in a custom shop. A lithium battery/solar/alternator setup is easy to build, Why the $25K?
Volta has aftermarket packages available for installation. I wonder if at sometime if you could address that after interviewing the company for specifics. Their site is light on pricing but they have several after market packages for all classes. It would be nice if it were cheaper to adapt a normal new or used RV to volta or go with the Travato L series.
The Pure3 system reduces OCCC by about 200 lbs for similarly configured rigs, not 400 lbs. This must be compared to the OCCC reduction incurred by other manufacturers' Lithium options. The Lexor starts with a Lithium primary coach battery which saves significant weight.
First time commenting This was very informative and refreshing.Its not common to hear someone be honest and say "avoid this model" especially in this day and age where everybody is being sponsored by somebody.
many thanks. yep I agree. one of the reasons why i'm trying to keep my channel unsponsored by the rv manufacturers. although some viewers still think I'm being biased!
I like the lithium system except for two things. You mentioned one of them, serviceability. But the other that really concerns me is how the battery limits the Travato's ground clearance. I looked underneath and saw that it had only about 6 inches of clearance...YIKES…SCAREY LOW!!! One big rock and POW! If they had just put the battery pack inside the van it would be a lot better. It would protect it from the cold and weather, greatly help the ground clearance, and make serviceability much better.
Neil, good review, and excellent point about the serviceability of the battery pack, and the ROI for the up-charge. Regarding your new “style”: kudos to you for trying something new and different. I like it, in moderation. As somebody who has given professional presentations for most of my career, and who is a former adjunct professor, I’ve learned long ago to mix JUST enough sizzle with my steak to keep the viewers’ attention.
well hymer has gotten a bad rap because their system initially had some problems with bms parasitic draw and confusion over how to properly operate the system but they've been steadily plugging away and are on I think revision "H" of EcoTrek and have addressed a lot of the initial problems. so the newer H revisions are getting better reviews from people. the good news about ecoTrek is that it's a less expensive system to get into. you can get 400ah for around $5k but you'd also have to include remote start $1900 and a second alternator $3300. the Volta system is huge and is not proprietary like EcoTrek. It's built by a company that does this for a living so you can rely on it. it's got the newest technology with automotive grade lithium and a 48v system. but it is really costly at $25k.
...and as far as capabilities? amount of power? Didn't I read above you mentioned you would have to move up to Road Treks "warp core" package at 15K. Would that be in addition to the 5K 400 ah package?, the 1900.00 remote start?, and the 3300.00 second alternator? A total of a little OVER 25K with a shorter warranty, and less power, and slower charging?
You seem biased against litium battery power. I get that this system is kind of over kill but you can have a much cheaper system that is lights out superoir to AGM technology. Have you explained to your followers these benefits (safe 90% discharge, flat power cycle, half the weight, far superior recharging qualities)? To me they are well worth the price. I am very excited that the industry is finally moving in this direction. I also recently saw you try to sell everone on 3 way fridges. The most hated thing about RVing for me was dealing with those things and the being level issue. Not everyone likes to pay $40 to $80+ a night to hook up at a crowded RV park. Please don't discourage people away form these wonderful advancements. Any way I'll keep watching as I usually enjoy your content.
You noted in your review that the driver seat wasn’t able to move back far enough for your liking (to fit a taller person). Isn’t this a Promaster feature and not a Travato feature? If it is then this means that you have the same problem with the Lexor. I didn’t see any comments on that in your FL review.
A major reason why i would want Lithium in any RV i'm looking for, is for computer and satellite internet (Starlink) usage. The bigger the battery, the better. Remote work, gaming, movies streaming, my whole family is heavily dependent on computers and internet use. Thus i am willing to pay more for as much Kilowatt/hour as possible. But i do agree with you that 30k extra for 8kwh is a bit too much. However i believe it's the price of being a pioneer. Prices should go down, then i will pull the trigger. I am shopping and your channel is good. Too bad you dont' post anymore.
I will be Stealth boondocking for long periods (week or two), with driving in between (groceries and sight seeing). I Also need some A/C intermittently throughout the day, not being there, and night. But I like the lexor fl the best. What would you recommend? Please
if you need periodic AC for maybe a couple hours at a time and don't want to run your generator and don't want to spend an arm and a leg than you have to go with something like the 400ah EcoTrek optioned models from Roadtrek and Hymer. It's a $10k upgrade but will meet your use cases.
Neil, regardless of how much of a change you make to the outside of the L to differentiate it from the K, it's still a ProMaster. Winnebago plastic surgeons can only do so much....
lol - true. still in the automotive industry when a new hybrid is introduced to an existing model line they generally try to give it a special paint color to differentiate it. would have been a smart idea here. the big changes SHOULD have come on the inside with better build quality and a longer warranty. you can't ask for a $110k Promaster and then give us stick framing and a 1 year warranty. makes absolutely zero sense. The most premium promaster builds are $110k and they offer much higher build qualities and warranties. The $25k premium here is just for the electrical system which is why I choose to focus on it and ultimately had to rest the entire review on it.
Thank you not only points out the problem with pure 3 system which I don't know anything about it but most importantly for me is where to dump the black tank and gray tank? I think I can deal with no electricity but when tanks are full,than what can I do,we have a city down here in socal Santa Monica, city government decided to let homeless people and campers to stay but didn't provide any help and One day all the RV owners all dumped both tanks at once 🤣 and you can imagine the smell in the air especially It was during hot summer months 😱🤫🙄😜🤔🤣 and now my family are staying away from that city
id like to hear some stats That would really help me determine the functionality....for example....how long could you run the AC on high on a really hot night to sleep...I know its like shore power but your using a battery....and some other functions like lights and fridge will be a draw on power.....thx
yep that's what I think. I applaud winnebago for taking the step but as a product the price is too steep. they should have offered various battery capacities like Roadtrek does. Then I could have given them a more favorable review.
Good review...I don't think most people need that much power but it's nice to think you have enough not to worry about it. I think if it's too hot for the fans just go somewhere and plug in until it cools down. We're too spoiled by AC. Just wondering if PW and RT owner's would also have to return their batteries or if they could just be replaced quickly if a problem arose? I'm looking forward to your review of the WATT system to see how that "marketing" fits in the real world. 100% right on that WB should have offered something extra for the price. Instead you just get less water which was already anemic.
watch next week's video! based on votes on my community tab i'm reviewing and comparing the various systems. Short answer is kind of. If you have $25k to spare then I recommend the Volta system for higher capacities. If you don't need higher capacities then I recommend the Eco-Ion system from Pleasureway which is standard across all their models and gives you enough Lithium power and a serviceable system to meet 95% of your needs. that's about the short of it.
Thank you..... the KL was on our list! I don’t have $25,000 extra to blow! I’d rather use that amount of money to travel! P.S. not a fan of the graphics.... just want the info. We plan on buying later this year! It’s between the KL and Coachman CrossFit 22!
Wow! Great food for thought! You might have saved me a bunch of money and allot of headache. I'm a automotive, diesel and generator mechanic. I can service a generator but not a lithium battery.
mike noted. it was a test and I''m glad to hear your opinion. some viewers like it and requested that I be less serious but some don't like it. i'm curious to find what the data tells me! thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Marcia - thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on this. this video is a definite test. I wanted to see if I could inject some humor in order to lighten the mood and make the video more entertaining. hopefully others feel as you do!
thanks david. appreciate the feedback. I just feel that since I'm covering a) a topic that can be rather boring (energy systems) and b) am delivering a message that is already negative a sense of humor can make it easier to watch. but I appreciate what you're saying. i'm learning too!
How about more b+ vans , you seem to get a lot more for your money the just b vans. Also really like the ford transit chassis more than the others. What b’s and b+’s are available with it.
Leisure Travel Vans has the Wonder model that is built on the Ford Transit. It is available in three stunning floorplans: Murphy bed, front twin beds, and rear twins beds with a garage. Good looking designs all.
I would like to see mini class C such as the Coachmen Leprechaun 190 which is just about the same length as a lot of class B's but come with a ton more space.
Neil, I really enjoyed the review and I do agree with almost everything you said here. However, I would point out, having lived in Texas my whole life, and for that matter this would be true of most who live in the southern states, that if you camp in the summer, you will be NOT, I repeat NOT be running the A/C for only 20 hours total for a two or three-day camping trip. You will be running the A/C for 48 or 72 hours respectively over the weekend. Personally, IMO, I love the idea of a big battery bank, and to that end if you own a Hymer or Roadtrek and you have a major problem with the Lithium Ion system you are likely going to have to get your unit to Canada and not to Indiana, but, the stats on this thing are a crazy, more than I'd need to boondock in the middle of Texas on a hot August weekend. I don't need to spend the extra $25k so Winnebago got it wrong, as they frequently do sadly. With all of that said, and I haven't checked, I'd love to see you review a Sportsmobile or two, obviously they all have potentially unique floor plans but from a quality perspective I think that could be doable. Loved the humor in the video, keep up the good work sir!
many thanks for sharing that David. I agree that in hot climates you need AC. The question is: how often really are people going to be boondocking without some connection to shore power? My estimates are based on that scenario. most of the time most of us are going to have shore power available and we can run our AC off that. I think 1000 hours over 5 years is generous personally but I admit that I don't live in the South and could very well be wrong.
Neil, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I will admit that our RV now does not have any capacity to really boondock unless the weather is perfect and we can run our 12v fantastic fan to pull air through or if its cold we could run our furnace off our battery so my boondocking experience is minimal but my desire is great. I think what I might have said is what my expectations would be if I were to have a serious boondocking RV, and I guess I'd want to be able to run the A/C indefinitely off of big battery banks with the ability to re-charge them from the engine, right now we only have shore power or generator and really generator is the only option I'd have for boondocking so most of our camping is shore power of course which means RV parks. I would add it to say that we are in a TT right now and want to move to a Class B, one main reason is the heat. In a Class B the interior would be cool or starting to get cool in route to our destination. TT's are hot as a sauna, I've seen 110+ inside so it takes our A/C an hour to cool it down in there, I really hate that part of TT's. Even big Class A'a and many Class C's get hot because the dash A/C cannot keep it cool and in many cases people run their generators to power the roof A/C while they are rolling down the road. I wouldn't be a fan of that either. A smaller Class B however I'd imagine the dash A/C can keep the inside relatively cool. Down here in the south having A/C in our RV's is absolutely critical to keeping money out of hotel chain pockets lol! Thanks for replying!
one of the big reasons why i purchased my shorty ascent is because the cab AC can keep the entire van cool while we're driving and when we get to our destination and its hot outside the inside is nice and cool at around 72. that makes it a lot easier for the coach AC to maintain the temperature. sometimes i just keep the engine AC on and let it cool the interior without starting the rooftop unit. it's much quieter.
really glad that you enjoyed it. I know that i'm going to get roasted by many travato fans but I have to tell it as I see it. did you like the new format?
Food for thought, sir. I'd been considering the 59GL, but you raise valid concerns with the Pure3 system. Looks like the Wonder RTB just bumped it off my short list. I encountered a very classy B this weekend. You might want to consider reviewing the Regency Xalta line. The 4-captain version I toured seemed to have excellent fit & finish and it passed your 5-point positive locking test. It even had some external storage! The major downside was that, with only 6'3" of headroom, I could not stand up in the shower without bruising my melon. It also lacked a permanent front lounge/office. VERY well-appointed rig, though.
thank you for sharing that colorme dubious. I like the Xalta line. I think I reviewed one... they are priced to sell and in talking with dealers they are not selling so you could probably get a really good deal. I think LaMesa RV in Sac had one for under $90k brand new. and it was on the extended sprinter chassis.
Thank you Neil.._ perfectly stated and I so appreciate that! 25k more = $200.00 more per month in a payment is crazy to me! I could use that $200.00 every month to travel, putting gas into my rig, etc! So happy I saw your video, as I was trying to see if it was worth the increased price over the K!!!! Thank you again.... you make my research so much easier! Take care and happy travels to you!!!!
This is one of the most enjoyable (for me) videos you have made.. I agree the price is NUTS. Forgive me if im missing something... but the cheaper one comes with a gas generator.. The pure 3 does not... so in a way, it costs even more than the dollar difference.. you also do not get a genny... save 4k on a generator.. a batter pack for 3k and a remote starter.. with a new alternator... another 2k seems like i should only need to pay a few thousand more.. not 10s of thousands... thumbs up... I just hit subscribe
soon my friend! soon! details like pricing and warranty are still up in the air and it seems they may still be working out some other important details. i'll do a mini-review just as soon as some of it settles out! i'm liking what i'm seeing especially if they have genuinely ditched stick framing and staples and upped the warranty!
Neil, big fan of the channel but I like the old format better.. when you physically go through all the features & components like when you talk about positive locking!!! I feel like you maybe short changing your fans!!! Just my opinion. These new videos are more spliced now.. Thanks
thanks for sharing that Shore Foot. this video is a special case because if I did my regular review 99% of it would be identical to my 59K review since there are no other differences between the 59k and the 59KL. that's why I focused on the Pure 3 system and by doing that the format of the video had to change. when viewers voted on the 59KL I immediately knew that I had a problem and would need to break away from the old format. I hope you stick with me and don't think that my future videos are going to be in this same format. this is a one off.
Your point is well taken regarding 200 hrs of AC a year, 1000 hrs over 5 yrs, and calculated to $25/hr. And you failed to mention the amazing expense/sq ft of a Class B RV from the get go. So let’s figure this differently... it’s all about how you are going to utilize... let’s use AC 3 hrs/ day 250 days per year...for 5 years... that works out to be $6.60 an hour. For that convenience, you might want to consider. Like you say, all about utilization. And if you are not going to utilize, want to not concern self with cost.
I liked the episode, but it’s so frustrating. I’m seriously looking at RVs with my pet’s safety as priority. Every time I think I’ve settled on one, a metaphoric wrench has been thrown at it. 😩 I was leaning into the Travato 59GL, now I’m not so sure.
Shirley let me ask you a question: given the technology would you really trust leaving your pet in ANY vehicle and trusting that technology will work correctly 100% of the time to keep them cool? if for some reason the technology just doesn't work one time, the temperature will build up inside the van to oven temperatures. Most people who buy this kind of system with the desire of using it to keep their pets cool while they are away end up not using or staying tethered close to the vehicle in case something happens (a breaker breaks for instance) and the system doesn't come on. This is a very real question and it's the reason why I point out in the video that the manufacturers and dealers want you to believe that you need it for keeping your pets cool but the reality is that most people don't trust the tech with 100% certainty to leave their pets alone with it.
Ultramobility I don’t know which to trust, but given my life circumstances, I have to choose. My other option is giving up my pets for good and I don’t want to do that. I plan having the rv close by while I’m away. In fact, I will invest in a temperature sensor that sends me updates via a phone app. I love my pets, why can’t I have them with me as I make a life transition that I hope lasts no more than a few years? I keep doing research but, you’re right, not one system will be 100% reliable. I can only make the best choice with my available options. That’s why I appreciate your reviews, it helps with decision making.
if you have to make a choice then your best bet is the volta system. it is built by a company that does this sort of thing. it's not a proprietary system like Roadtrek's Voltstart. if you use a remote monitoring system then you can have better knowledge of what's happening inside the van.
Hi Neil Been following awhile and REALLY appreciate and enjoy your Reviews and Comparisons. I have been looking at the Travato and with this latest review you really cut to the chase on that Pure 3 system....I was feeling that I had to have it and then I saw the price tag for it and thought ...."No F&*(in way! This video clinched it for me; No pure 3 system.....I am now torn between pleasure way and Travato K.....sigh....thanks again and keep up the great work.
him Jim. thank you for your support. that's why I do these videos. I love all RVs but my job is to give my honest opinion regardless of whether I personally like the vehicle or not. to be honest I love the layout of the 59k AND I love the tech in the KL but for the reasons that I outlined in the review I simply can't recommend it. the price tag is too high for most of us and the reasons why we're being told we need all that battery capacity is really just a bunch of baloney for most of us. glad my video could help you save some time and money!
thank you for sharing that Michael. I was a little hesitant to keep it in but reaction from early previews convinced me to try it. I like the humor as well as it makes the video more entertaining and less "samey".
Good video.I do have go agree with you that for the extra $25,000 It’s not worth it. I would say that something 1/5th the size and cost will be good for most people.As for the battery design I think a setup like what they have in printers would be great.If one cell goes bad you just popit out and replace it with a good one.NOt even sure that batteries go bad that often anyway.
NB seems to be biased against WB. I watched a few WB related videos in this channel and WB almost always came out on the losing side. Is there any WB model that he actually likes, recommends or came out ahead in the vs videos? Is WB really that terrible? I’m not a RV owner but getting up there in age so now doing research. If I were to watch his videos only, I’d be avoiding WB at all cost.
How is it that no one is bothered by and has mentioned those two "couches" in the back in that the walkway is incredibly narrow in addition to looking look pretty uncomfortable? You can't sit sideways because the cushions are just too wide (that's been mentioned), but there's also no back cushion to make it into an actual couch. I think they should come up with a split-cushion design that provides back support and opens up that walkway (think "futon" design). I'm 6' 1" and neither of those beds look like they'd work unless I didn't sleep with a pillow or actually move when I sleep.
the biggest problem i have on the 59k(L) is the lounge: it is setup for being a bedroom with the benches sitting up too high and as you say not back cushions.
Loved the review but not the product and price. I would rather have an upgrade in quality. The bathroom does rock. I am 5'3 so I never noticed the cabinet height.
yeah i'm still scratching my head on the 59KL. why did winnebago come out with it at such a huge price increase that puts it into premium territory but then not give us all the things that we expect from a premium product?
But ... if you're a Nomad ... it's worth it. Not caring about docking is very assuring feeling. And pets being able to stay in A/C environment, while you're dining out and exploring new places, is very important to every dog/cat owner. Many people even install Canary Camera inside RV, so they see their pet and know the temperature inside of a van! It IS VERY big deal... And for unlimited boondocking, all you need just buy a few 5 gallon jugs of water from Walmart and away you go. And kudos to Hymer for doing VoltStart system first, before Winnebago, 12 Volt though, but still first. In Hymer your pet is safe as well.... Lets see where the RT / Hymer go with their new WATT Cell system... they seem to be always first!
hey there. i don't think in the end most people who buy these remote start systems actually trust the tech enough to allow their beloved pets to stay inside ovens. that's the truth of it if you read owners in forums. almost none of them use the system with their pets because they don't trust the tech. they will go into a coffee shop briefly but always are tethered to the van because they can't trust that the tech will work. if that's the case for these small b vans you're better off just leaving your van running with the cab AC on. as far as boondocking i maintain the numbers that i threw out. I think that 1000 hours over 5 years is generous and so $25k is a really high premium to pay for those 1000 hours. but hey it's just my opinion and many folks will fork over the $25k... maybe. tho i'm willing to bet that sales of the 59kl are not what winnebago has hoped. that's just what i think. thank you for sharing your thoughts agent 404!
Awesome Honesty!!! Thank You For Saving Me $25,000!!!! Education Like Yours Delivers Real Knowledge. Knowledge Learned From Your Videos Delivers Power And Savings Too!!!
i'm glad that you find this review helpful. I know it will disappoint some Travato fans but if they've got $25k extra in their pocket then this review won't matter anyway.
Whoa his education is biased and may not be suitable for you. I can definitely see why people would want this. Me personally, I would love to have the ability to power my RV without having to use a loud generator, especially when in areas where generators would be an issue.
Here’s another reason that the “L” version extra cost is justified. We recently tried to book at some RV campgrounds with power available and were unable to find anything close to where we wanted to stay. So we had to alter our plans to accomodate "what’s available". You can always find fresh water and a place to dump tanks, but you can’t always find a desirable place with powere hookups. Having the L would give you that ability to be spontaneous and adventurous without fear of running out of power. There are a lot of really beatiful camping spots that don’t have power and a lot of them don’t allow generator use at all.
I am laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes! Great Review! I'd have trouble paying that for a coach that only has a 1 year warranty....And the tank sizes would keep you from boon docking for a long period of time....so what's the point? Thanks Neil!
I think I'd gravitate toward Hymer VoltStart Lithium package... It's 12 Volt though, but even if Hymer's engine starts more often than 59KL to charge batteries, it's OK, as soon as A/C works off the batteries, I'm OK with it. And it's cheaper too. And with RT/Hymer/Thor added new WATT Fuel Cell, they maybe will be equal in efficiency at some point ...
the WATT system could be a game changer. it's quiet BUT it does work off propane which many people don't like and frankly Roadtrek has spent the better part of the last 5 years convincing us is bad. on the plus side EcoTrek is in it's 8th generation now. They're on revision "H" or something. that's good as it shows that they're continuing to improve the system. You'll hear a lot of people banter around how inefficient their system is but folks how have purchased newer generation "H" systems are reporting great improvements in the technology.
RT mentioned they're planning to install larger propane tank to feed WATT with 240 hours of "continues" use. But in real live there is no "continues" use of course, so it will be probably around 600 hours per tank of 500 Watt intermittent delivery to batteries. Which is cool. It's 25 days of 500 Watt stream on top of Solar panels and UG of course. Goodies...
Neil - your basic point is well taken, but please, stick to your more sober regular format. It's more informative. This video is incomplete and a bit silly. I get that you're trying to slap WInnebago on the side of the head for trying to sell a $90K Travato with a basically unsupported new electrical system technology for $115K. That's luxury territory, and there are better ways to spend the extra $25K. One of them being the P-W Lexor. I agree that there should have been an intermediate step in the all-electric ladder. Frankly, there needs to be a wholesale re-evaluation of the power demand profile of RVs to minimize the need for huge electrical systems in the first place. Houghton makes an A/C unit that's 20-25% more efficient and far quieter than the Coleman-Machs you commonly find. Improved insulation and double pane windows can minimize the heating and cooling needs significantly. Truly quiet generators are a possibility, but chassis engine based generator systems at this point probably make more sense from an environmental, reliability, and quiet standpoint. To their credit, W-B has for 2019 addressed some of these issues - it's upped the insulation throughout, added a standard inverter, and is offering double-pane acrylic awning windows. That latter option is a mixed bag, but put on a layer of graffiti film for acrylic windows and you've saved the cost of double-pane glass. Kinda dumb that instead of adding an interlock to prevent the slider from smashing an open passenger side window to bits, they just made it really really hard to open the window Oh, and you forgot to cover the 2nd point in your marketing argument takedown: the pets-in-the-RV argument isn't a truly valid one because no auto-start system is rated for life-critical missions. If pets are going to be in the RV, there has to be a passive alternative to A/C or AGS failure. The point of the Volta system is (besides getting people to the dealer showroom) boondocking in hot places, quietly. That takes a lot of battery power, and if you run the numbers on that apparently huge battery pack, you'll find that it lasts just about overnight at 50%. Having the system recharge from a relatively quiet (high) idling chassis engine appeals more than having your peace and quiet disturbed by a screaming generator, and having the system recharged while you're driving to the next camp seems far more elegant than running the generator while enroute...
i think folks who are used to me like my more sober self and perhaps I will stick to that. i think newer viewers don't have that issue. with regards to "quiet" recharging from high idle. have you ever heard a promaster on high idle?? it's not quiet and NO ONE in a campground or on a street would want to listen to it for any length of time. It's a marketing gimmick to get people to believe that running the van's engine at high idle is somehow quiet. It isn't. i do thank you for being honest about my delivery and format. i'm keeping an eye close to the ground and eyes on the data to see how it goes over. it was a risk for me but i have to continue to tr new things out in order to improve my channel. maybe this isn't one of them.
You have a good point, high idle isn't quiet in the way that startup idle is. So perhaps the idea of automatic recharging every time the engine is on is how the system will ultimately be operated most of the time - not for the true stop-and-stay boondockers, but for the whistle-stoppers - is a more realistic marketing argument. Most folks hardly ever use their generator in the first place. Bottom line: Pure 3 is gilding an entry-level lily.
lol "gilding an entry-level lily". precious. i think if you're driving then a 6000w secondary alternator makes a lot of sense. it will recharge the 87000 wt-hr battery from empty to full in about 2 hours. that's great. but on idle where the output is much less and heat is going to cause the alternator to cycle it's makes a lot less sense. there's an allure to us americans wanting to be completely off the grid and able to travel freely. rv marketers know this. but it is absolutely ridiculous to pay $25k for the maybe 5% extra convenience you're going to get with such a huge capacity battery. I can do 95% of what you can do in a KL with 200ah of lithium. i guess if i had $25k laying around I'd pay for that extra 5% convenience... maybe. thanks as always for the engaging and thoughtful conversation!
Nice review . However as far as I'm concerned lithium batteries in a class B are a waste of money . It's not like you can go out and Boondock for two weeks because you do not have the capacity to do anything like that in a class B. The ROI on the lithium batteries is essentially not there.
tend to agree with you here. the ROI is horrendous. plus the whole point of class b vans is so that you can site see and drive around from place to place. if you're doing that you're recharging all the time so you don't need to carry a huge capacity around with you all the time.
We dont like to hook up at parks. We stay at walmarts and Planet Fitness most of the time. When boon docking we use a Berky water filter to stay out longer. Not everyone RVs the same way and these batteries are a god send for some of us. Lithium batteries are ideal for us and you can have a good system for less than 12k which is more than worth it to us. Have you looked into the advatages? A lithium should last 4 times longer, are half the weight, have a flat power curve, can be run down to 90% charge with no degradation, recharge FULLY in a quarter of the time and are not sensitive to partial charging. When you consider all that they are cheaper and for me they provide a far superior RV experience. They make perfect sense for class Bs.
The hypothetical example of why it doesn’t pay to spend the additional $25,000 for the KL Travato based on only 10 weekends of camping per year, is a ridiculous point to focus on. It is a financial absurdity to even spend the $79,000 for the base Travato + tax, insurance, maintenance, and servicing and possibly storage fees for merely 20 to 30 days of camping per year. First, you cannot go to far from home because with a return drive , you’ll waste 1 day just driving. So it can only be a short trip if it is just a weekend getaway. Even if I you leave after work on a Thursday evening and return Sunday evening, you’d have all Friday and Saturday and half day on Sunday for camping. So for 10 weekends per year, as expressed by BBQ In his commentary, you’d have 2 1/2 days of camping per weekend or 25 camping days per year. The actual cost for even a entry level class B Travato or any class B RV Would cost over $1,000 per month to finance with insurance etc. Over $12,000 a year for 25 days of camping comes to about $500 per day. Only someone who has money to throw away would think that buying any RV for such a minimal amount of camping is a well thought out camping option. I’m just surprised that Neil focused his “avoid” recommendation based on the cost of the solar upgrade amortized over a 20 to 30 day usage per year when cost wise , it could be argued that you could go to the best camping lodges for half that price and not worry about RV maintenance, insurance, repairs, and annual depreciation of the RV. An RV needs to be used more than 20 to 30 days per year and not kept in storage for 330 days per year to make any financial sanity.
Who are you and what did you do with the real Neil? While you still tell it like it is the added sensationalism, with the added in film clips, takes away from what I came here for. Namely information without having to wade through stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
lol! help I've been abducted and replaced by an alien. thanks for sharing your thoughts. i do take all criticism seriously. this was an attempt to make what would normally have been very bland subject matter and inject a bit of levity but i think that many of my loyal viewers find it too distracting. sigh.
Life is serious but these videos don’t have to be! A few seconds of levity would do Scrooge and The Grinch good in today’s world! But not everyone! Good job Neil keep the levity life is short!
Definitely on my Do Not Buy list. I'd rather have the larger water tank. But then again, I'm not crazy about the 59K either. I'll have to check with my friends who wrote He-Man if that little Power thing of his would recharge the batteries on an RV. 😆 🌩
Thanks for the review. If I could add a bit of constructive criticism though... I'm not a fan of the silly faces on the thumbnails. I fully understand why you're doing them as they generate some clicks but the "Ultramobility reacts to" faces don't really fit the style of the channel.
thanks for sharing that roy. yeah I don't disagree with you but I haven't found the right design for thumbnails yet to get acceptable click thru rates so this is an ongoing test. I appreciate your honesty here and take it seriously. youtube recommends them but that doesn't mean my viewers like em!
thank you very much. this week is hard one for me because I can see that some viewers really don't like this video and think I am being biased. it is nice to read comments like yours!
So, I calculate that you are getting 725 AH for 25K??? Hmmm, If you look around you can buy 100AH batteries from renergy for about 850 bucks a pop. So, say 6000 for batteries. That's a lot lot of cash for that upgrade. But, I do applaud them for making an option to skip a generator. It's nice to know that they are going green, it's the future. Needs to have 500 or so watts of solar on the roof as well. I wish you would have stated how long you could run the AC alone off of the batteries before the engine had to restart to charge it up.... Would have been a great test. For some people, with cpap, or other life saving medical devices that need to be plugged in, this may be the best option for them. With global warming, I can see where some people in 110 days ... may be worth it to run that AC for all DAY and night use. The longer you run it, the cost to run it goes down.... I'd personally pay $$$ to stay in my van on a hot day with the ac running while not having to be at a campsite plugged into the grid.
Amen Brother Neil!!!! 1) No way in h#!%$# would I put my $3000 Surface on one of those light-weight 'picnic tables'. Once again Winnebago design at it's best - they can do better. 2) Prancercise - 'A Fitness Revolution' No words to describe Thanks for the morning laughs. Your earlier video asked 'do you really need the expense of more battery just to run the air conditioner?' I'd rather put the extra $25K in my retirement fund and not be as chilly in my campervan. Thanks for the smart / light-hearted review.
wow - I needed to hear that Anthony! Thanks for sharing! I'm glad you appreciate what i'm saying about the $25k upgrade price. it's not a pittance. maybe if they offered a $5k upgrade path or something I could have given them a more favorable review.
hey there. i'm researching now. think the concept is great but have some concerns: 1) how does it operate at altitude 2) what is the cost 3) how is serviceability 4) how large of a propane tank will you need.
I have to smile at the indignation of the so-called boondockers here who dislike the very practical value based question raised in this video, when these same posters don't even mention the 21% REDUCTION in fresh water capacity, from an already very small 23g down to a minuscule 18g, in order to make space for that immense battery and inverter system. How much boondocking is THAT water capacity going to allow you, regardless of your wonderful electrical system? 2-3 days max? LOL!
While I don't agree with your use-case math (because you don't provide stastics on how many people actually fall into and out of your use-case scenario such as the van-lifer), I do agree that this price is just ridiculous. A Tesla Powerwall is about $11,000 for 30 kWh of capacity (to run your entire _house_ for a week) versus this Volta solution at less than 9 kWh. If it were a $5,000 or _maybe_ $10,000 premium, then it might be acceptable but $25,000 is just ridiculous. I estimate the raw material price at 1/10th the retail price.
On the Class B forum a person who had built his own "volta" system with Lithionics batteries, etc. came up with a parts cost of around $10K, well over half of that batteries.
Neil, I think you underestimate the customer demand to eliminate the need for generators. Generator use is restricted in many parks and Harvest Hosts requires you get permission before using them. Your assumption that the Volta system is going to have reliability issues does not appear to be based on any facts. The Volta system is used in ultra-premium Advanced RV vans as well as other commercial applications that require high reliability. Your review of the bathroom just seemed ridiculous to me. I do not know of any toilet that is designed for people to lounge back against the tank. You must be very uncomfortable when you have to use a commercial toilet that just has a metal flush handle in the back.
Paul, have you been in the 59k's bathroom? also I say "serviceability *may* be an issue". the point is that it is new and no one knows. do you? question for you: how long will it take to get a defective battery pack back from Volta Systems? these are important questions and rarely do we think about issues like serviceability. it's easy to say "ARV uses it so it must be great". The truth is that ARV is a very small custom shop. They do not make anywhere near the volume of vans that Winnebago does. Winnebago controls over 30% of the class b market. ARV less than a fraction of a percent. That's a completely different scale of operations. Also we need to take into account the dealer network service centers. dealer service centers are already outpaced by sales of shotty travel trailers. Those travel trailers are clogging service centers across the nation. since dealers are a part of the servicing of Volta systems (e.g. they will be the ones to remove and reinstall any Volta components). Finally, early adopters of the Volta system on the Travato line have reported problems and they have reported that the all-in-one sealed box approach does require that everything go through the dealer and Volta and can be a lengthy process. So I'm not making this stuff up and I believe your assumption that everything will be fine with Volta is not based on facts or research.
Neil, I have been in the 59K bathroom and feel it is roomier than most and like the idea, it is easy to open the doors and create an outdoor shower area. I do not have experience with Volta but do have experience with generators which do require oil changes and maintenance in the same "clogged service centers". My experience with lithium-ion batteries and inverters is they are very reliable, the only moving part is a fan. Which is why I assume the Volta system will also be reliable. Only time will tell.
I don't know what to tell you Paul. I don't bring up the things in my reviews for any other reason than to be of service to my viewers. I have no ulterior motives. My experience now having owned two class b vans is that if you bump your head on something or hit your shoulder against something once then it's likely going to happen again and again and will become a real nuisance. I bumped my head when I sat on the toilet. Full stop. I wasn't trying to bump my head. I didn't want to bump my head. but I did. so I reported on it to be of service to viewers. maybe you sat on the toilet and didn't bump your head. maybe you didn't sit on the toilet. doesn't matter. I point this stuff out so that others will be aware and try it out themselves. sorry if you find that ridiculous. With regards to the Onan generator. It's serviceability is not at all similar to the Volta system and it would be disingenuous and ignorant of me to say otherwise. The Cummins Onan generator is almost a standard component used across all RVS. Dealers know how to diagnose it and often time do repairs on it themselves. Some dealers even have replacement generators onsite in their parts department. this is nothing like the Volta system. Dealers cannot even diagnose it let alone repair anything or replace anything at their dealerships. I'm glad your experience with lithium ion energy systems for the RV world has been all positive but the truth is that this is not the case for others. You can read their stories on forums and owners' groups. It's fine that you're not worried but my job is to report what I'm hearing and researching. that's what I do full time. I would love to report that early adopters aren't having any issues but sadly that's not the case. as more volta systems get rolled out on a scale Volta has never seen before we'll see how the service network and their own ability to scale holds up. I just think your assumption that Volta won't need servicing or that servicing won't be a problem is out of touch with reality. sorry for being so blunt on the matter.
Neil, you can tell me what the reliability and serviceability with the Ascent L-ion system has been. I think it is logical to scale up the battery system to eliminate the generator. The skill set needed to service a small battery system is the same as a large one. I commend Roadtrek, ARV, Winnebago, ... and others for developing RVs that do not require generators.
I don't Paul. I can find out. the fact is that the Eco-Ion system by Pleasure-way was intentionally designed to be simple and serviceable. it's basically just a lead battery setup with lithium batteries dropped in. you can buy the lithium batteries as replacements yourself off amazon if you like. It is not the same skill set to service it as say Volta. Not even close. First off the battery itself is not sealed. It's an open compartment where you can easily remove and replace batteries. I accept your opinion that you don't like generators and believe that larger capacity lithium battery banks are the way to go. I just don't agree with you. if you've got $25k to spend on a massive lithium battery bank then good on you and you should spend it for the 5% convenience that you're going to get. The point of my video is that most don't have that kind of money and likely won't spend it and that's okay because they really won't need it. PW's Eco-Ion system covers like 95% of the average person's needs. It's simple to use, serviceable and a _standard feature_ . that kind of system makes sense and you use a generator for the last 5% which means you hardly use it. usage data across the board on rvs prove that out. so for the vast majority of people a system like volta is just overkill and not a good value. I stand by that statement and believe that sales data will prove me correct. there will be others like yourself who will pay the premium and I said as much in my video. I consider it my job to speak to these issues and make the hard calls even if some people don't like my answer. Finally I don't feel any of the RV manufacturers deserve commendation for sticking large, high margin battery packs into RVs and spending millions of dollars trying to convince us we need it for running the coach AC for long periods of time. if they really cared about our concerns they'd spend more r&d on things like better insulation with higher r-factors to keep the heat out; or how about maybe quiet generator technology? I mean honestly the guys pushing EcoTrek and Volta don't even install resonators on their existing generators which is commonly available! could they at least show us they are trying to address our concerns with a $69 part versus a $25k upgrade? sorry for the rant but we just give these guys way too much praise for the wrong reasons.
I'm not a Winnie hater by any means. I applaud them offering the base models at an affordable level when compared to other manufacturers. I want so bad to love the Travato.. But often missed in reviews of them is their dismal fresh water tank size. In a world (class Bs) where water is already at a premium, the Travatos with this new Volta lithium set-up has DECREASED the tank size to 18 gallons of fresh water. Really limiting these rigs for any legit boon docking for a couple of adults. Is there no more room for a larger tank (how does everyone pull it off?). Is it a weight issue? If so, maybe the new increase in payload capacity for the 2019 Promasters might remedy that. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
Check out my original in-depth review of the Travato 59K here: ua-cam.com/video/eef9FvPJ7us/v-deo.html
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I have a 59K and would not consider the L model. I boondock And my 200 watts of solar and 2000 watt inverter are more than enough. (Inverter cost $400). These things have generators for a reason. But I live in Colorado so heat is usually not a problem. I use the front to watch tv and do computer work all the time, so it works for us. I like the open feel of the K. Also I’m 5’10 and sitting on the toilet does not bump your head. ( you are sitting on the lid pushed all the way back, really?). Love your videos though.
the 59k is a great value; a great layout; a great van - especially for a couple. one of my favorites. the 59KL makes no sense to me for the reasons that you point out. You have plenty of battery power and with solar 95% of your use cases are covered. Maybe if Winnebago offered a 200ah option of lithium that would make a lot more sense than a $25k upgrade. I appreciate you sharing your experience as an actual owner and hope that others read your comment as well. thank you for sharing!
Yeah but can you run your air conditioner from what you have? I have dogs and I would like to leave them in the car if I want to shop a little bit or some thing and leave them for a while and you can’t if it’s real hot out and you don’t have air on and if you’re in a parking lot you really can’t leave your generator running and I will trust doing it anyway
We have to give praise to Winnebago for coming forward with this technology even at this expense. It will get cheaper over time. There are always the early adopters that will buy this stuff and help all of us in the long run.
yep well said Jay. the rv manufacturers need to get real. before adding $25k expenses on ginormous battery banks to run ACs to cool down interiors why not first deal with the heat issue with better coach and cab insulation? better roof insulation? investment in more efficient air conditioning? figure out a way to better utilize the cab AC with ducted cab AC? I could go on. it's just so disingenuous of them. it's a quick and easy way to charge a premium full stop. I hate to be so cynical and heated on the issue but it just irks me to no end.
This review really has me frustrated. First off, making the volta battery the key highlight of this video and not disclosing it's 8 year warranty is frustrating. Also, this vehicle competes with the hymer activ which is priced at 105k after discounts, same as this one. The hymer has a 4500 watt battery, this 8700. The hymer charges with a 12v alternator, this 48 volt. This is why the winnebago charges its batters in 1.5 hours versus the hymers much slower system. And winnebago keeps you charged for twice as long. Many people do want to boondock and vanlife is a reality for many people. For those who don't want to stay at shore power sites or run loud/dirty generators, this is a great investment. I don't see how one can justify a pleasureway for 135k and say look at the cabinets, look at the quality, its so nice. And when a competitor produces the highest quality electrical system say, oh, I would avoid it because who wants to pay 25k for a superior electrical system. Both are equally valid reasons to pay a premium for.
okay I hear what you're saying BUT... my point in the video is that for 95% of buyers they won't ever use the 8700 watt hours of capacity. that's just the truth and so the $25k upgrade is not worth it. you can disagree with me on the point but I will wager that sales of the 59KL will stall due to precisely what I'm saying. the 59KL is a technology wonder and will bring people onto dealer lots (which dealers love) but at the end of the day when it comes to opening checkbooks they will purchase another rig (fine for the dealer). You can't sell a promaster for over $100k and then pretend it's not in premium territory and only offer a 1 year coach warranty and the same stick framing and staples holding cabinets together as you have on the regular 59K. I just disagree that the premise that $25k for an electrical system only upgrade is worth it. I don't think sales will prove that out. but I do appreciate your comment and thank you for sharing it!
Yes, I absolutely love what you do. Do you follow youtuber humble van? I watch all the rv channels and his content is outstanding and presentation is unmatched. I highly suggest you check him out, he does have a pleasure way btw ;). And thank you for doing what you do.
love george. love his channel. he may want me to review his new rig! we'll see! thank you so much for watching. I do value what you're saying and hope that you understand that.
That'd be wonderful.
I agree with you on the warranty part. Winnebago claims 8 years for Pure3, but in small print you find that it only covers battery unit, which is only part of the electrical system upgrade. The rest of the components are the same old 1 year, which is completely inadequate for electronics that will be subjected to constant shakes and huge temperature swings all the time. As for resale value, the statistics of hybrid cars with batteries that are much bigger then in Travato show that they surprisingly maintain their value very well in aftermarket. Sure the 10 year warranty by the car manufacturer helps a lot here and Travato needs to provide similar guarantees.
Neil, It doesn’t seem like this video is up to your prior standards. I enjoyed your past videos with a less biased presentation. Question, did you actually look at and use the 59KL in person? The reason I ask is the one button start up also turns on the inverter. I agree from the warranty and build quality of the PW is above reproach, however that comes at a cost. For about the same money (street price not MSRP) one can purchase a 59 KL or a PW Lexor. It all comes down to your needs or wants. I love the build of the Lexor but like the twin beds and rear bath of the 59k. The other thing, PW needs to move into modern time and ditch the absorption fridge. For my needs living in a hot climate the 59KL would be a great option.
I really hope that having a strong opinion doesn't qualify me as biased! For the record the one button does not turn on the inverter. this would be a bad idea as the inverter has a parasitic draw that isn't necessary most of the time. there's a panel on the wall where you turn on the inverter unless they've changed that since my review. i'm sorry this video disappointed you but it was a one off. I couldn't do a normal review because 99% of the KL is exactly the same as the K which I've previously reviewed. I had to focus on the pure 3 system which is the big differentiator. this is the problem with allowing viewers to vote on what episodes that I should do ;-) regarding needs: honestly, how often are you going to camp where you don't have shore power? honestly? I maintain that for most people the numbers I threw out are generous: 1000 hours over 5 years. that just doesn't justify the $25k premium in my book and I believe sales of the KL will prove me correct. but I look forward to being proven wrong! thanks for sharing your thoughts.
In the early build L models you could not turn off the inverter. It just went into standby and came on with the one big button. I believe they have changed that now so you can turn the inverter off.
FogHORNLH is correct. When you turn on the Pure3 system the inverter comes on as a default. If you want it off you have to turn it off at the panel on the rear wall. If in doubt, just phone Winnebago.
I love your honesty! Winnebago needs to stop the hype and get real. They also need a much better warranty. If I am paying that much more for lithium batteries, I want some very nice perks, not just a huge bank of batteries! Get on the ball Winnebago.
I agree magic journey. it's a strange model to me. it's a real premium at $25k more but they don't give you anything else in terms of better build quality, a longer warranty or even a special paint. just the volta system. I really meant what I said in the video. I don't think 95% of us will use that huge battery bank capacity so it's a waste of money in my book. winnebago should have offered a smaller battery capacity then I would have given them a more favorable review but as it stands offering an all or nothing model doesn't make sense to me. not for that price and not for the winnebago quality level.
What I don't understand is Winnebago has the most expensive rv's in pretty much every class but their warranties are terrible. Why is it that manufacturers do not see the benefit of a much better warranty like Roadtrek and others??
Just reviewing some of your old reviews and I'm very impressed on your take on this very expensive upgrade!
Hopefully the manufacturers have settled down a bit and are offering a much lower price point. And the battery and inverter technology is getting easier to service I believe.
Last point. Love the retro old school video clips although I'm sure most people are not that happy.
Ok, not only are your reviews getting better but your videos are so entertaining! This was a great, helpful video about an rv that’s on my short list. Thanks.
thank you tuckered out!
Good points about the questionable need for a hi tech lithium system. Would the same thoughts apply to Pleasure Way's lithium offerings?
Wow, I thought I wanted the KL but the way you explain things, you changed my mind. Thank you. Always great, informative videos.
I really appreciate how receptive you are to feedback regarding the channel, clearly showing your desire to continually improve the content. That said, the cartoon clips were overused and the comedy seemed forced. You grew your channel being who you are with a signature style, that’s part of the reason for the subs you have along with great content. Humor is great if it’s random. Neil is Neil, George is George (Humble Road), unique personalities, which is why some channels make it and some don’t. Be yourself.
Thank you for the honesty of your reviews and having the courage to tell it like it is, some may disagree with your conclusions but should respect that you don’t only pump out glowing reviews for fear of offending someone. I have been very interested in the trend in lithium power systems such as this but never really weighed the benefits against the high cost. Also having a proprietary, sealed battery module scare me if something goes wrong on the road. Murphy’s law says it all.
varosvapor really appreciate your honesty hear. as you say I need to by myself. that's the lesson here. but, I also have to try new things and see how they go. the whole reason why i'm where i'm at today with my channel is because I haven't feared trying new things. some work out others done! onward and upward!
The lithium has advantages like running A/C and cpap machines in parks with quiet time. Also urban or stealth camping.
Neil, in your upcoming video, please take some time to work through the apparent pros and cons of battery configurations. While there may appear to be a theoretical advantage to multiple battery systems, for example, the reality may actually weigh in favor of the single sealed module. It depends on how the manufacturer has structured the internal architecture of the module and the power of its BMS to cope with multiple cell failure. A manufacturer would not offer a single module unless its expected failure rate were vastly lower than a ganged battery architecture. In terms of loss of vacation, failure for either system means a return to base or nearest service center - it's only transport class jet planes that are rated to safely complete a transoceanic journey on just one engine. At least on an RV you can start up the engine and drive home if coach power fails.
I offer as an example of this counterintuitiveness multiplexed RV electrical systems. They are arguably more complex than direct-wired systems, and very difficult or impossible to diagnose or repair on the road with just a volt-ohm meter and basic tools. They would have to offer vastly improved reliability for the end user before being adopted.
If a module ever does require service or replacement, the return-to-manufacturer service model is indeed highly inconvenient, but every Lithium power system vendor uses this to my knowledge. I drive a hybrid Toyota, and while their system is near-bulletproof, I waited years until the service infrastructure was sufficiently built out before buying in. The problem right now is infant mortality risk with a new product - and the solution is to wait and let the bugs work out.
While true that most of wouldn't have a realistic need for the KL, but there are those that do a LOT of boondocking or going to state and national parks where electricity might not be available. This is admittedly generally a fairly small segment of RVers that could afford it and need it as most would just get a portable generator. For those with the money who don't like the noise of a generator and who do a LOT of camping without electrical hookups, it could be worth getting.
Yep agree with that statement.
As per usual, an informative review. I have a 2020k w/o the "L" option and it works very well and i cannot complain about the noise caused by the generator. I find to generator/solar/ AGM electrical system to be simple to operate and understand. I also will not complain when my electrical system will need servicing - any tech can service my unit wherever I might be when a breakdown occurs. I have owned three RVs and serviceability was an essential factor when deciding on the excellent K model design. I added an extra solar panel myself for $250 to keep my batteries charged. I also have a Jackery portable 1000w lithium power station if I require additional power - all this works just fine - it is simple - it is cost effective. To be fair, I do love the very cool technology the Volta system represents, and I am confident, Volta systems represent the future of RV power needs. At some point, the delta of costs and serviceability will find just the right costs/benefit sweet spot. For my requirements, I'll keep the 25k and put it to good use in my travel budget.
Love love love this review....that’s what the people at coachhouse are saying too.servicability is too difficult...lithium sounds amazing but in reality maybe not yet.we love our 59k but the platinum 2 is looking better every day.the dinette with a slide and queen size bed in the back looks great for long trips. I’m hoping you get over to Nakomis fla.sometime and do a walkthrough
The He-man was good the 1st time...... You played it to many times, it's annoying. Too many effects, took away from the video.
noted thanks for letting me know.
Ultramobility I (a very analytical guy) enjoyed all of your humor. Thank you for adding “spice” vs a flat, boring review.
Great review, but the cartoons and short video clips got old REALLY fast. They're NOT needed.
thank you for sharing. you and about a bazillion others agree!
I liked the La Quinta clip. Laugh out loud!!! LoL
Honestly I like the cartoon and the other short clips. You still give us great info and that’s why we’re here. Having a sense of humour is fine. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the review. We are looking at the 59G just for 995% travel, Not very much over night. Wanting this for a bathroom, kitchenette, refrigerator. A generator would be all we need. Thanks again.
Glad it was helpful!
Great review and I completely agree. Not sure why RV makers keep reinventing the wheel (no pun intended). I split my time between a PL Plateau TS and a 38' Sailboat. Boats use cases are largely the same as RVs. My sailboat is completely self sustaining with 400W of solar and 400ah of Group31 AGM. If I want AirCon and I rarely do plugin or start the generator and I'm sailing 1000 miles south of florida. I'll switch to Lithium Iron Phosphate when the batteries get cheaper but for now I get 400ah for about $800 and they last at least 5 years if taken care of.
EXACTLY Tom! 400ah covers 95% of most people's use cases. and you can get 400ah of lead acid batteries much cheaper than lithium. i'm covering that in my video review of energy systems next week. you speak from experience but unfortunately the RV manufacturers love to play on fear, uncertaintly and doubt and convince people that they need to drop $25k (25 frickin' thousand) on an upgrade that they are rarely going to need. and we wonder why the RV industry has such a bad reputation.
A lithium should last 4 times longer, are half the weight, have a flat power curve, can be run down to 90% charge with no degradation, recharge FULLY in a quarter of the time and are not sensitive to partial charging. When you consider all that they are cheaper and for me they provide a far superior RV experience.
Thanks so much for this video -- I"m still in the researching stage and all the lithium projections seem so amazing -- but this one is definitely worth rethinking.
hi jill. next week based on viewer votes i'm doing a more in depth comparison of the various lithium systems available on the market so stay tuned!
Great Job 👏🏽 my opinion Lithium is for van life not weekend getaways. So yeah! If you plan on living in your van more POWER makes sense get lithium or pay to plug in somewhere. haven’t made my decision yet but you are helping a lot thank you 😊
Very true!
Thanks for this information, Neil. Can you do a video on Travato G or GL 2020.5? I love pleasure way, can’t really afford it unless I get a older model. Planning to buy on 2 years and will get. Used 2020 model. 😀
What if you're living full time? Would it be worth it?
I'm looking at two van options, one is have a custom adventure van build out a van or going the way of a pleasure such as the Travato(which is much cheaper). A custom van can run close to $160K with less comfort. A 600amh lithium power setup with solar runs around $12K at the most in a custom shop. A lithium battery/solar/alternator setup is easy to build, Why the $25K?
Volta has aftermarket packages available for installation. I wonder if at sometime if you could address that after interviewing the company for specifics. Their site is light on pricing but they have several after market packages for all classes. It would be nice if it were cheaper to adapt a normal new or used RV to volta or go with the Travato L series.
The Pure3 system reduces OCCC by about 200 lbs for similarly configured rigs, not 400 lbs. This must be compared to the OCCC reduction incurred by other manufacturers' Lithium options. The Lexor starts with a Lithium primary coach battery which saves significant weight.
First time commenting This was very informative and refreshing.Its not common to hear someone be honest and say "avoid this model" especially in this day and age where everybody is being sponsored by somebody.
many thanks. yep I agree. one of the reasons why i'm trying to keep my channel unsponsored by the rv manufacturers. although some viewers still think I'm being biased!
I like the lithium system except for two things. You mentioned one of them, serviceability. But the other that really concerns me is how the battery limits the Travato's ground clearance. I looked underneath and saw that it had only about 6 inches of clearance...YIKES…SCAREY LOW!!! One big rock and POW!
If they had just put the battery pack inside the van it would be a lot better. It would protect it from the cold and weather, greatly help the ground clearance, and make serviceability much better.
thanks for sharing
Neil, good review, and excellent point about the serviceability of the battery pack, and the ROI for the up-charge. Regarding your new “style”: kudos to you for trying something new and different. I like it, in moderation. As somebody who has given professional presentations for most of my career, and who is a former adjunct professor, I’ve learned long ago to mix JUST enough sizzle with my steak to keep the viewers’ attention.
hi there. thank you for your advice and words of encouragement. i'm always experimenting on my channel. this one kind of blew up in my face lol.
Whom do you think has the better system for Lithium ? Hymer or Winnebeago. or about the same. Thanks for your thoughts..
well hymer has gotten a bad rap because their system initially had some problems with bms parasitic draw and confusion over how to properly operate the system but they've been steadily plugging away and are on I think revision "H" of EcoTrek and have addressed a lot of the initial problems. so the newer H revisions are getting better reviews from people. the good news about ecoTrek is that it's a less expensive system to get into. you can get 400ah for around $5k but you'd also have to include remote start $1900 and a second alternator $3300. the Volta system is huge and is not proprietary like EcoTrek. It's built by a company that does this for a living so you can rely on it. it's got the newest technology with automotive grade lithium and a 48v system. but it is really costly at $25k.
...and as far as capabilities? amount of power? Didn't I read above you mentioned you would have to move up to Road Treks "warp core" package at 15K. Would that be in addition to the 5K 400 ah package?, the 1900.00 remote start?, and the 3300.00 second alternator? A total of a little OVER 25K with a shorter warranty, and less power, and slower charging?
You seem biased against litium battery power. I get that this system is kind of over kill but you can have a much cheaper system that is lights out superoir to AGM technology. Have you explained to your followers these benefits (safe 90% discharge, flat power cycle, half the weight, far superior recharging qualities)? To me they are well worth the price. I am very excited that the industry is finally moving in this direction. I also recently saw you try to sell everone on 3 way fridges. The most hated thing about RVing for me was dealing with those things and the being level issue. Not everyone likes to pay $40 to $80+ a night to hook up at a crowded RV park. Please don't discourage people away form these wonderful advancements. Any way I'll keep watching as I usually enjoy your content.
hello. next week's video is all about energy systems and I do cover these things that you mention. stay tuned!
You noted in your review that the driver seat wasn’t able to move back far enough for your liking (to fit a taller person). Isn’t this a Promaster feature and not a Travato feature? If it is then this means that you have the same problem with the Lexor. I didn’t see any comments on that in your FL review.
yep it's true. I just started to do this in newer reviews based on viewer feedback. in the review of the 2019 Lexor it will definitely come up.
A major reason why i would want Lithium in any RV i'm looking for, is for computer and satellite internet (Starlink) usage. The bigger the battery, the better. Remote work, gaming, movies streaming, my whole family is heavily dependent on computers and internet use. Thus i am willing to pay more for as much Kilowatt/hour as possible. But i do agree with you that 30k extra for 8kwh is a bit too much. However i believe it's the price of being a pioneer. Prices should go down, then i will pull the trigger.
I am shopping and your channel is good. Too bad you dont' post anymore.
Once again, you gave me a lot to think about and ponder. Thanks for the video. :)
I will be Stealth boondocking for long periods (week or two), with driving in between (groceries and sight seeing). I Also need some A/C intermittently throughout the day, not being there, and night. But I like the lexor fl the best. What would you recommend? Please
if you need periodic AC for maybe a couple hours at a time and don't want to run your generator and don't want to spend an arm and a leg than you have to go with something like the 400ah EcoTrek optioned models from Roadtrek and Hymer. It's a $10k upgrade but will meet your use cases.
Neil, regardless of how much of a change you make to the outside of the L to differentiate it from the K, it's still a ProMaster. Winnebago plastic surgeons can only do so much....
lol - true. still in the automotive industry when a new hybrid is introduced to an existing model line they generally try to give it a special paint color to differentiate it. would have been a smart idea here. the big changes SHOULD have come on the inside with better build quality and a longer warranty. you can't ask for a $110k Promaster and then give us stick framing and a 1 year warranty. makes absolutely zero sense. The most premium promaster builds are $110k and they offer much higher build qualities and warranties. The $25k premium here is just for the electrical system which is why I choose to focus on it and ultimately had to rest the entire review on it.
Thank you not only points out the problem with pure 3 system which I don't know anything about it but most importantly for me is where to dump the black tank and gray tank? I think I can deal with no electricity but when tanks are full,than what can I do,we have a city down here in socal Santa Monica, city government decided to let homeless people and campers to stay but didn't provide any help and One day all the RV owners all dumped both tanks at once 🤣 and you can imagine the smell in the air especially It was during hot summer months 😱🤫🙄😜🤔🤣 and now my family are staying away from that city
id like to hear some stats That would really help me determine the functionality....for example....how long could you run the AC on high on a really hot night to sleep...I know its like shore power but your using a battery....and some other functions like lights and fridge will be a draw on power.....thx
next week's episode will cover more of what you're asking.
Agreed. It will take a few years for that price to come down and is not worth the 25K extra.
yep that's what I think. I applaud winnebago for taking the step but as a product the price is too steep. they should have offered various battery capacities like Roadtrek does. Then I could have given them a more favorable review.
Good review...I don't think most people need that much power but it's nice to think you have enough not to worry about it. I think if it's too hot for the fans just go somewhere and plug in until it cools down. We're too spoiled by AC. Just wondering if PW and RT owner's would also have to return their batteries or if they could just be replaced quickly if a problem arose? I'm looking forward to your review of the WATT system to see how that "marketing" fits in the real world. 100% right on that WB should have offered something extra for the price. Instead you just get less water which was already anemic.
yep and don't forget less cargo carrying capacity. like 400lbs less due to the batteries!
Ultramobility Absolutely correct...forgot about the weight.
Great video but the question remains, is there any Class B with lithium technology that you would recommend ?
watch next week's video! based on votes on my community tab i'm reviewing and comparing the various systems. Short answer is kind of. If you have $25k to spare then I recommend the Volta system for higher capacities. If you don't need higher capacities then I recommend the Eco-Ion system from Pleasureway which is standard across all their models and gives you enough Lithium power and a serviceable system to meet 95% of your needs. that's about the short of it.
Thank you..... the KL was on our list! I don’t have $25,000 extra to blow! I’d rather use that amount of money to travel! P.S. not a fan of the graphics.... just want the info. We plan on buying later this year! It’s between the KL and Coachman CrossFit 22!
thanks for the info!
Wow! Great food for thought! You might have saved me a bunch of money and allot of headache. I'm a automotive, diesel and generator mechanic. I can service a generator but not a lithium battery.
Glad I could help!
So you cannot run the ac while away from the van in the 59 K ? but you can with the 59 KL?
Getting a little too cutesy for me. 👎🏻
I thoroughly enjoyed this video and the great information with the added touch of light heartedness. THUMBS UP !!
mike noted. it was a test and I''m glad to hear your opinion. some viewers like it and requested that I be less serious but some don't like it. i'm curious to find what the data tells me! thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Marcia - thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on this. this video is a definite test. I wanted to see if I could inject some humor in order to lighten the mood and make the video more entertaining. hopefully others feel as you do!
Good info but presented to silly. It makes it sound too slanted a review. This is opposite of an unbiased review that you purport to give.
thanks david. appreciate the feedback. I just feel that since I'm covering a) a topic that can be rather boring (energy systems) and b) am delivering a message that is already negative a sense of humor can make it easier to watch. but I appreciate what you're saying. i'm learning too!
How about more b+ vans , you seem to get a lot more for your money the just b vans. Also really like the ford transit chassis more than the others. What b’s and b+’s are available with it.
will definitely be doing more b+ reviews. not many are building on the Transit the CrossFit by coachmen and the Paseo by Winnebago.
Leisure Travel Vans has the Wonder model that is built on the Ford Transit. It is available in three stunning
floorplans: Murphy bed, front twin beds, and rear twins beds with a garage. Good looking designs all.
yep good point Mary thanks for that!
I would like to see mini class C such as the Coachmen Leprechaun 190 which is just about the same length as a lot of class B's but come with a ton more space.
Neil, I really enjoyed the review and I do agree with almost everything you said here. However, I would point out, having lived in Texas my whole life, and for that matter this would be true of most who live in the southern states, that if you camp in the summer, you will be NOT, I repeat NOT be running the A/C for only 20 hours total for a two or three-day camping trip. You will be running the A/C for 48 or 72 hours respectively over the weekend. Personally, IMO, I love the idea of a big battery bank, and to that end if you own a Hymer or Roadtrek and you have a major problem with the Lithium Ion system you are likely going to have to get your unit to Canada and not to Indiana, but, the stats on this thing are a crazy, more than I'd need to boondock in the middle of Texas on a hot August weekend. I don't need to spend the extra $25k so Winnebago got it wrong, as they frequently do sadly. With all of that said, and I haven't checked, I'd love to see you review a Sportsmobile or two, obviously they all have potentially unique floor plans but from a quality perspective I think that could be doable. Loved the humor in the video, keep up the good work sir!
many thanks for sharing that David. I agree that in hot climates you need AC. The question is: how often really are people going to be boondocking without some connection to shore power? My estimates are based on that scenario. most of the time most of us are going to have shore power available and we can run our AC off that. I think 1000 hours over 5 years is generous personally but I admit that I don't live in the South and could very well be wrong.
Neil, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I will admit that our RV now does not have any capacity to really boondock unless the weather is perfect and we can run our 12v fantastic fan to pull air through or if its cold we could run our furnace off our battery so my boondocking experience is minimal but my desire is great. I think what I might have said is what my expectations would be if I were to have a serious boondocking RV, and I guess I'd want to be able to run the A/C indefinitely off of big battery banks with the ability to re-charge them from the engine, right now we only have shore power or generator and really generator is the only option I'd have for boondocking so most of our camping is shore power of course which means RV parks. I would add it to say that we are in a TT right now and want to move to a Class B, one main reason is the heat. In a Class B the interior would be cool or starting to get cool in route to our destination. TT's are hot as a sauna, I've seen 110+ inside so it takes our A/C an hour to cool it down in there, I really hate that part of TT's. Even big Class A'a and many Class C's get hot because the dash A/C cannot keep it cool and in many cases people run their generators to power the roof A/C while they are rolling down the road. I wouldn't be a fan of that either. A smaller Class B however I'd imagine the dash A/C can keep the inside relatively cool. Down here in the south having A/C in our RV's is absolutely critical to keeping money out of hotel chain pockets lol! Thanks for replying!
one of the big reasons why i purchased my shorty ascent is because the cab AC can keep the entire van cool while we're driving and when we get to our destination and its hot outside the inside is nice and cool at around 72. that makes it a lot easier for the coach AC to maintain the temperature. sometimes i just keep the engine AC on and let it cool the interior without starting the rooftop unit. it's much quieter.
I hear you! Love those underhood generators!
I was so waiting on this video from u.. this was so awesome.. nice way to start my day.. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
really glad that you enjoyed it. I know that i'm going to get roasted by many travato fans but I have to tell it as I see it. did you like the new format?
Ultramobility well it is what is, yes I do like the new format..
Excellent review with solid advise.
Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Food for thought, sir. I'd been considering the 59GL, but you raise valid concerns with the Pure3 system. Looks like the Wonder RTB just bumped it off my short list. I encountered a very classy B this weekend. You might want to consider reviewing the Regency Xalta line. The 4-captain version I toured seemed to have excellent fit & finish and it passed your 5-point positive locking test. It even had some external storage! The major downside was that, with only 6'3" of headroom, I could not stand up in the shower without bruising my melon. It also lacked a permanent front lounge/office. VERY well-appointed rig, though.
thank you for sharing that colorme dubious. I like the Xalta line. I think I reviewed one... they are priced to sell and in talking with dealers they are not selling so you could probably get a really good deal. I think LaMesa RV in Sac had one for under $90k brand new. and it was on the extended sprinter chassis.
I must have missed that review. I'll look it up later.
here you go. literally my first review ever. I've improved quite a bit since: ua-cam.com/video/eef9FvPJ7us/v-deo.html
Thanks! Just watched it. I agree with the commenters that said the wood was a little too dark. Fair review, though.
Thank you Neil.._ perfectly stated and I so appreciate that! 25k more = $200.00 more per month in a payment is crazy to me! I could use that $200.00 every month to travel, putting gas into my rig, etc! So happy I saw your video, as I was trying to see if it was worth the increased price over the K!!!! Thank you again.... you make my research so much easier! Take care and happy travels to you!!!!
Fantastic!
I wish that you had discussed the capability of the system relative to other RVs. It IS worth the money to some.
Great video, super informative! Thanks.
This is one of the most enjoyable (for me) videos you have made.. I agree the price is NUTS.
Forgive me if im missing something... but the cheaper one comes with a gas generator.. The pure 3 does not... so in a way, it costs even more than the dollar difference.. you also do not get a genny... save 4k on a generator.. a batter pack for 3k and a remote starter.. with a new alternator... another 2k seems like i should only need to pay a few thousand more.. not 10s of thousands... thumbs up... I just hit subscribe
Neil, when will you do a review of the new Winnebago Boldt?
soon my friend! soon! details like pricing and warranty are still up in the air and it seems they may still be working out some other important details. i'll do a mini-review just as soon as some of it settles out! i'm liking what i'm seeing especially if they have genuinely ditched stick framing and staples and upped the warranty!
Neil, big fan of the channel but I like the old format better.. when you physically go through all the features & components like when you talk about positive locking!!! I feel like you maybe short changing your fans!!! Just my opinion. These new videos are more spliced now.. Thanks
thanks for sharing that Shore Foot. this video is a special case because if I did my regular review 99% of it would be identical to my 59K review since there are no other differences between the 59k and the 59KL. that's why I focused on the Pure 3 system and by doing that the format of the video had to change. when viewers voted on the 59KL I immediately knew that I had a problem and would need to break away from the old format. I hope you stick with me and don't think that my future videos are going to be in this same format. this is a one off.
Your point is well taken regarding 200 hrs of AC a year, 1000 hrs over 5 yrs, and calculated to $25/hr. And you failed to mention the amazing expense/sq ft of a Class B RV from the get go. So let’s figure this differently... it’s all about how you are going to utilize... let’s use AC 3 hrs/ day 250 days per year...for 5 years... that works out to be $6.60 an hour. For that convenience, you might want to consider. Like you say, all about utilization. And if you are not going to utilize, want to not concern self with cost.
Love the cutaways man! Esp He-Man and that car dealer!!!! 😂
some viewers love 'em and some hate 'em... enough didn't like them that I've gone back to my more normal reviews.
I liked the episode, but it’s so frustrating. I’m seriously looking at RVs with my pet’s safety as priority. Every time I think I’ve settled on one, a metaphoric wrench has been thrown at it. 😩 I was leaning into the Travato 59GL, now I’m not so sure.
Shirley let me ask you a question: given the technology would you really trust leaving your pet in ANY vehicle and trusting that technology will work correctly 100% of the time to keep them cool? if for some reason the technology just doesn't work one time, the temperature will build up inside the van to oven temperatures. Most people who buy this kind of system with the desire of using it to keep their pets cool while they are away end up not using or staying tethered close to the vehicle in case something happens (a breaker breaks for instance) and the system doesn't come on. This is a very real question and it's the reason why I point out in the video that the manufacturers and dealers want you to believe that you need it for keeping your pets cool but the reality is that most people don't trust the tech with 100% certainty to leave their pets alone with it.
Ultramobility I don’t know which to trust, but given my life circumstances, I have to choose. My other option is giving up my pets for good and I don’t want to do that. I plan having the rv close by while I’m away. In fact, I will invest in a temperature sensor that sends me updates via a phone app. I love my pets, why can’t I have them with me as I make a life transition that I hope lasts no more than a few years? I keep doing research but, you’re right, not one system will be 100% reliable. I can only make the best choice with my available options. That’s why I appreciate your reviews, it helps with decision making.
if you have to make a choice then your best bet is the volta system. it is built by a company that does this sort of thing. it's not a proprietary system like Roadtrek's Voltstart. if you use a remote monitoring system then you can have better knowledge of what's happening inside the van.
Ultramobility 💜 thank you 😊
Shirley Vargas this rig is as good as you can do for your pets.
Hi Neil Been following awhile and REALLY appreciate and enjoy your Reviews and Comparisons. I have been looking at the Travato and with this latest review you really cut to the chase on that Pure 3 system....I was feeling that I had to have it and then I saw the price tag for it and thought ...."No F&*(in way! This video clinched it for me; No pure 3 system.....I am now torn between pleasure way and Travato K.....sigh....thanks again and keep up the great work.
him Jim. thank you for your support. that's why I do these videos. I love all RVs but my job is to give my honest opinion regardless of whether I personally like the vehicle or not. to be honest I love the layout of the 59k AND I love the tech in the KL but for the reasons that I outlined in the review I simply can't recommend it. the price tag is too high for most of us and the reasons why we're being told we need all that battery capacity is really just a bunch of baloney for most of us. glad my video could help you save some time and money!
I like the limited added humor as it reinforces the points you are communicating.
thank you for sharing that Michael. I was a little hesitant to keep it in but reaction from early previews convinced me to try it. I like the humor as well as it makes the video more entertaining and less "samey".
Thanks for the information on the L batteries.
Any time!
Thanks, Neil. For the reality check! Pleasure Way’s conservative approach seems more prudent.
Another Great One! Loved the Dance Scenes and the Cartoons......multi Media!
glad you liked it! getting a lot of negative feedback on the lighter elements tho :-(
Opinions (mine included) are like rectums, every one has one!
lol!
1 year warranty sucks. Other than that, excellent review as always!
thank you much Xiang Huang!
The Volta system has an EIGHT year warranty.
Good video.I do have go agree with you that for the extra $25,000 It’s not worth it. I would say that something 1/5th the size and cost will be good for most people.As for the battery design I think a setup like what they have in printers would be great.If one cell goes bad you just popit out and replace it with a good one.NOt even sure that batteries go bad that often anyway.
I am now confused and must edit my notes concerning build quality of the Winnebago travato.
yes the quality may have improved a bit recently but its still a 1 year warranty
@@Ultramobility some have 3 and 5 year warranties. I would stick with those because they are made better.
NB seems to be biased against WB. I watched a few WB related videos in this channel and WB almost always came out on the losing side. Is there any WB model that he actually likes, recommends or came out ahead in the vs videos? Is WB really that terrible? I’m not a RV owner but getting up there in age so now doing research. If I were to watch his videos only, I’d be avoiding WB at all cost.
How is it that no one is bothered by and has mentioned those two "couches" in the back in that the walkway is incredibly narrow in addition to looking look pretty uncomfortable? You can't sit sideways because the cushions are just too wide (that's been mentioned), but there's also no back cushion to make it into an actual couch. I think they should come up with a split-cushion design that provides back support and opens up that walkway (think "futon" design). I'm 6' 1" and neither of those beds look like they'd work unless I didn't sleep with a pillow or actually move when I sleep.
the biggest problem i have on the 59k(L) is the lounge: it is setup for being a bedroom with the benches sitting up too high and as you say not back cushions.
@@Ultramobility Your legs were dangling at your height - my wife at 5' would look positively juvenile sitting on that couch. Thx for your reply! :)
Have to see how the "Watt" system works on the new Hymer's. It"s a fuel cell that charges your batteries.
Loved the review but not the product and price. I would rather have an upgrade in quality. The bathroom does rock. I am 5'3 so I never noticed the cabinet height.
yeah i'm still scratching my head on the 59KL. why did winnebago come out with it at such a huge price increase that puts it into premium territory but then not give us all the things that we expect from a premium product?
It was fun to meet your snarky side, Neil LOL
Neil, what about the Sunlight 2v for comparison
i'll have to check them out. they're a low budget hymer brand.
@@Ultramobility or the Carado Banff, thank you
But ... if you're a Nomad ... it's worth it. Not caring about docking is very assuring feeling. And pets being able to stay in A/C environment, while you're dining out and exploring new places, is very important to every dog/cat owner. Many people even install Canary Camera inside RV, so they see their pet and know the temperature inside of a van! It IS VERY big deal... And for unlimited boondocking, all you need just buy a few 5 gallon jugs of water from Walmart and away you go.
And kudos to Hymer for doing VoltStart system first, before Winnebago, 12 Volt though, but still first. In Hymer your pet is safe as well.... Lets see where the RT / Hymer go with their new WATT Cell system... they seem to be always first!
hey there. i don't think in the end most people who buy these remote start systems actually trust the tech enough to allow their beloved pets to stay inside ovens. that's the truth of it if you read owners in forums. almost none of them use the system with their pets because they don't trust the tech. they will go into a coffee shop briefly but always are tethered to the van because they can't trust that the tech will work. if that's the case for these small b vans you're better off just leaving your van running with the cab AC on. as far as boondocking i maintain the numbers that i threw out. I think that 1000 hours over 5 years is generous and so $25k is a really high premium to pay for those 1000 hours. but hey it's just my opinion and many folks will fork over the $25k... maybe. tho i'm willing to bet that sales of the 59kl are not what winnebago has hoped. that's just what i think. thank you for sharing your thoughts agent 404!
Great job.
Awesome Honesty!!! Thank You For Saving Me $25,000!!!! Education Like Yours Delivers Real Knowledge.
Knowledge Learned From Your Videos Delivers Power And Savings Too!!!
i'm glad that you find this review helpful. I know it will disappoint some Travato fans but if they've got $25k extra in their pocket then this review won't matter anyway.
Whoa his education is biased and may not be suitable for you. I can definitely see why people would want this. Me personally, I would love to have the ability to power my RV without having to use a loud generator, especially when in areas where generators would be an issue.
Here’s another reason that the “L” version extra cost is justified. We recently tried to book at some RV campgrounds with power available and were unable to find anything close to where we wanted to stay. So we had to alter our plans to accomodate "what’s available". You can always find fresh water and a place to dump tanks, but you can’t always find a desirable place with powere hookups. Having the L would give you that ability to be spontaneous and adventurous without fear of running out of power. There are a lot of really beatiful camping spots that don’t have power and a lot of them don’t allow generator use at all.
I am laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes! Great Review! I'd have trouble paying that for a coach that only has a 1 year warranty....And the tank sizes would keep you from boon docking for a long period of time....so what's the point? Thanks Neil!
I think I'd gravitate toward Hymer VoltStart Lithium package... It's 12 Volt though, but even if Hymer's engine starts more often than 59KL to charge batteries, it's OK, as soon as A/C works off the batteries, I'm OK with it. And it's cheaper too. And with RT/Hymer/Thor added new WATT Fuel Cell, they maybe will be equal in efficiency at some point ...
the WATT system could be a game changer. it's quiet BUT it does work off propane which many people don't like and frankly Roadtrek has spent the better part of the last 5 years convincing us is bad. on the plus side EcoTrek is in it's 8th generation now. They're on revision "H" or something. that's good as it shows that they're continuing to improve the system. You'll hear a lot of people banter around how inefficient their system is but folks how have purchased newer generation "H" systems are reporting great improvements in the technology.
RT mentioned they're planning to install larger propane tank to feed WATT with 240 hours of "continues" use. But in real live there is no "continues" use of course, so it will be probably around 600 hours per tank of 500 Watt intermittent delivery to batteries. Which is cool. It's 25 days of 500 Watt stream on top of Solar panels and UG of course. Goodies...
I like EcoTrek + WATT. You can parallel two WATTs together and get 1,000 watt continuously and 2,200 watt on spikes. Sweet!
My understanding is that the white system will replace the end of a generator. But maybe I’m mistaken
Neil - your basic point is well taken, but please, stick to your more sober regular format. It's more informative. This video is incomplete and a bit silly. I get that you're trying to slap WInnebago on the side of the head for trying to sell a $90K Travato with a basically unsupported new electrical system technology for $115K. That's luxury territory, and there are better ways to spend the extra $25K. One of them being the P-W Lexor.
I agree that there should have been an intermediate step in the all-electric ladder. Frankly, there needs to be a wholesale re-evaluation of the power demand profile of RVs to minimize the need for huge electrical systems in the first place. Houghton makes an A/C unit that's 20-25% more efficient and far quieter than the Coleman-Machs you commonly find. Improved insulation and double pane windows can minimize the heating and cooling needs significantly. Truly quiet generators are a possibility, but chassis engine based generator systems at this point probably make more sense from an environmental, reliability, and quiet standpoint.
To their credit, W-B has for 2019 addressed some of these issues - it's upped the insulation throughout, added a standard inverter, and is offering double-pane acrylic awning windows. That latter option is a mixed bag, but put on a layer of graffiti film for acrylic windows and you've saved the cost of double-pane glass. Kinda dumb that instead of adding an interlock to prevent the slider from smashing an open passenger side window to bits, they just made it really really hard to open the window
Oh, and you forgot to cover the 2nd point in your marketing argument takedown: the pets-in-the-RV argument isn't a truly valid one because no auto-start system is rated for life-critical missions. If pets are going to be in the RV, there has to be a passive alternative to A/C or AGS failure.
The point of the Volta system is (besides getting people to the dealer showroom) boondocking in hot places, quietly. That takes a lot of battery power, and if you run the numbers on that apparently huge battery pack, you'll find that it lasts just about overnight at 50%. Having the system recharge from a relatively quiet (high) idling chassis engine appeals more than having your peace and quiet disturbed by a screaming generator, and having the system recharged while you're driving to the next camp seems far more elegant than running the generator while enroute...
i think folks who are used to me like my more sober self and perhaps I will stick to that. i think newer viewers don't have that issue. with regards to "quiet" recharging from high idle. have you ever heard a promaster on high idle?? it's not quiet and NO ONE in a campground or on a street would want to listen to it for any length of time. It's a marketing gimmick to get people to believe that running the van's engine at high idle is somehow quiet. It isn't. i do thank you for being honest about my delivery and format. i'm keeping an eye close to the ground and eyes on the data to see how it goes over. it was a risk for me but i have to continue to tr new things out in order to improve my channel. maybe this isn't one of them.
You have a good point, high idle isn't quiet in the way that startup idle is. So perhaps the idea of automatic recharging every time the engine is on is how the system will ultimately be operated most of the time - not for the true stop-and-stay boondockers, but for the whistle-stoppers - is a more realistic marketing argument. Most folks hardly ever use their generator in the first place. Bottom line: Pure 3 is gilding an entry-level lily.
lol "gilding an entry-level lily". precious. i think if you're driving then a 6000w secondary alternator makes a lot of sense. it will recharge the 87000 wt-hr battery from empty to full in about 2 hours. that's great. but on idle where the output is much less and heat is going to cause the alternator to cycle it's makes a lot less sense. there's an allure to us americans wanting to be completely off the grid and able to travel freely. rv marketers know this. but it is absolutely ridiculous to pay $25k for the maybe 5% extra convenience you're going to get with such a huge capacity battery. I can do 95% of what you can do in a KL with 200ah of lithium. i guess if i had $25k laying around I'd pay for that extra 5% convenience... maybe. thanks as always for the engaging and thoughtful conversation!
Good luck with this system after the warranty runs out in just one year.
Nice review . However as far as I'm concerned lithium batteries in a class B are a waste of money . It's not like you can go out and Boondock for two weeks because you do not have the capacity to do anything like that in a class B. The ROI on the lithium batteries is essentially not there.
tend to agree with you here. the ROI is horrendous. plus the whole point of class b vans is so that you can site see and drive around from place to place. if you're doing that you're recharging all the time so you don't need to carry a huge capacity around with you all the time.
We dont like to hook up at parks. We stay at walmarts and Planet Fitness most of the time. When boon docking we use a Berky water filter to stay out longer. Not everyone RVs the same way and these batteries are a god send for some of us. Lithium batteries are ideal for us and you can have a good system for less than 12k which is more than worth it to us. Have you looked into the advatages? A lithium should last 4 times longer, are half the weight, have a flat power curve, can be run down to 90% charge with no degradation, recharge FULLY in a quarter of the time and are not sensitive to partial charging. When you consider all that they are cheaper and for me they provide a far superior RV experience. They make perfect sense for class Bs.
The hypothetical example of why it doesn’t pay to spend the additional $25,000 for the KL Travato based on only 10 weekends of camping per year, is a ridiculous point to focus on. It is a financial absurdity to even spend the $79,000 for the base Travato + tax, insurance, maintenance, and servicing and possibly storage fees for merely 20 to 30 days of camping per year.
First, you cannot go to far from home because with a return drive , you’ll waste 1 day just driving. So it can only be a short trip if it is just a weekend getaway. Even if I you leave after work on a Thursday evening and return Sunday evening, you’d have all Friday and Saturday and half day on Sunday for camping. So for 10 weekends per year, as expressed by BBQ In his commentary, you’d have 2 1/2 days of camping per weekend or 25 camping days per year. The actual cost for even a entry level class B Travato or any class B RV Would cost over $1,000 per month to finance with insurance etc. Over $12,000 a year for 25 days of camping comes to about $500 per day. Only someone who has money to throw away would think that buying any RV for such a minimal amount of camping is a well thought out camping option.
I’m just surprised that Neil focused his “avoid” recommendation based on the cost of the solar upgrade amortized over a 20 to 30 day usage per year when cost wise , it could be argued that you could go to the best camping lodges for half that price and not worry about RV maintenance, insurance, repairs, and annual depreciation of the RV. An RV needs to be used more than 20 to 30 days per year and not kept in storage for 330 days per year to make any financial sanity.
thanks for sharing!
Who are you and what did you do with the real Neil? While you still tell it like it is the added sensationalism, with the added in film clips, takes away from what I came here for. Namely information without having to wade through stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
lol! help I've been abducted and replaced by an alien. thanks for sharing your thoughts. i do take all criticism seriously. this was an attempt to make what would normally have been very bland subject matter and inject a bit of levity but i think that many of my loyal viewers find it too distracting. sigh.
I like the new Neil. Although the inserts are pretty common in the UA-cam world these days. It does add some fun to the videos.
Life is serious but these videos don’t have to be! A few seconds of levity would do Scrooge and The Grinch good in today’s world! But not everyone! Good job Neil keep the levity life is short!
Definitely on my Do Not Buy list. I'd rather have the larger water tank. But then again, I'm not crazy about the 59K either.
I'll have to check with my friends who wrote He-Man if that little Power thing of his would recharge the batteries on an RV. 😆 🌩
lol please do lisaMarli!
Thanks for the review. If I could add a bit of constructive criticism though... I'm not a fan of the silly faces on the thumbnails. I fully understand why you're doing them as they generate some clicks but the "Ultramobility reacts to" faces don't really fit the style of the channel.
thanks for sharing that roy. yeah I don't disagree with you but I haven't found the right design for thumbnails yet to get acceptable click thru rates so this is an ongoing test. I appreciate your honesty here and take it seriously. youtube recommends them but that doesn't mean my viewers like em!
Yes! I want to run ac off grid!
one my fav videos from Neil. Enjoy your vids. keep 'em coming :)
many thanks ruffamaryders!
YOUR VERY AWESOME 👍👏
KEEP MAKING THESE VIDEO'S!! 🤗
thank you very much. this week is hard one for me because I can see that some viewers really don't like this video and think I am being biased. it is nice to read comments like yours!
@@Ultramobility JUST KEEP GOING👍
So, I calculate that you are getting 725 AH for 25K??? Hmmm, If you look around you can buy 100AH batteries from renergy for about 850 bucks a pop. So, say 6000 for batteries. That's a lot lot of cash for that upgrade. But, I do applaud them for making an option to skip a generator. It's nice to know that they are going green, it's the future. Needs to have 500 or so watts of solar on the roof as well. I wish you would have stated how long you could run the AC alone off of the batteries before the engine had to restart to charge it up.... Would have been a great test. For some people, with cpap, or other life saving medical devices that need to be plugged in, this may be the best option for them. With global warming, I can see where some people in 110 days ... may be worth it to run that AC for all DAY and night use. The longer you run it, the cost to run it goes down.... I'd personally pay $$$ to stay in my van on a hot day with the ac running while not having to be at a campsite plugged into the grid.
Amen Brother Neil!!!!
1) No way in h#!%$# would I put my $3000 Surface on one of those light-weight 'picnic tables'. Once again Winnebago design at it's best - they can do better.
2) Prancercise - 'A Fitness Revolution' No words to describe
Thanks for the morning laughs. Your earlier video asked 'do you really need the expense of more battery just to run the air conditioner?' I'd rather put the extra $25K in my retirement fund and not be as chilly in my campervan.
Thanks for the smart / light-hearted review.
wow - I needed to hear that Anthony! Thanks for sharing! I'm glad you appreciate what i'm saying about the $25k upgrade price. it's not a pittance. maybe if they offered a $5k upgrade path or something I could have given them a more favorable review.
I'm less shocked at any revelation in this video than I am that you paid 3 grand for a Surface.
play nice colorme dubious ;-)
Surface Pro
Intel Core i7, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM
Surface Keyboard + Pen
Cheaper than other vices I could mention - but will not [;-)
that's a nice setup Anthony! jealous!
Thanks for another great video. On a separate note what's your thoughts on the new watt fuel cell system roadtrek just launched.
hey there. i'm researching now. think the concept is great but have some concerns: 1) how does it operate at altitude 2) what is the cost 3) how is serviceability 4) how large of a propane tank will you need.
I have to smile at the indignation of the so-called boondockers here who dislike the very practical value based question raised in this video, when these same posters don't even mention the 21% REDUCTION in fresh water capacity, from an already very small 23g down to a minuscule 18g, in order to make space for that immense battery and inverter system. How much boondocking is THAT water capacity going to allow you, regardless of your wonderful electrical system? 2-3 days max? LOL!
Really? You'd prefer an electric blue RV with green turn signals?
Yes.
Just rewatching... You need a t-shirt!
you mean for "I'VE GOT THE POWER!!!"?
While I don't agree with your use-case math (because you don't provide stastics on how many people actually fall into and out of your use-case scenario such as the van-lifer), I do agree that this price is just ridiculous. A Tesla Powerwall is about $11,000 for 30 kWh of capacity (to run your entire _house_ for a week) versus this Volta solution at less than 9 kWh. If it were a $5,000 or _maybe_ $10,000 premium, then it might be acceptable but $25,000 is just ridiculous. I estimate the raw material price at 1/10th the retail price.
great comparison alliejr! thank you for sharing that!
On the Class B forum a person who had built his own "volta" system with Lithionics batteries, etc. came up with a parts cost of around $10K, well over half of that batteries.
Neil, I think you underestimate the customer demand to eliminate the need for generators. Generator use is restricted in many parks and Harvest Hosts requires you get permission before using them. Your assumption that the Volta system is going to have reliability issues does not appear to be based on any facts. The Volta system is used in ultra-premium Advanced RV vans as well as other commercial applications that require high reliability.
Your review of the bathroom just seemed ridiculous to me. I do not know of any toilet that is designed for people to lounge back against the tank. You must be very uncomfortable when you have to use a commercial toilet that just has a metal flush handle in the back.
Paul, have you been in the 59k's bathroom? also I say "serviceability *may* be an issue". the point is that it is new and no one knows. do you? question for you: how long will it take to get a defective battery pack back from Volta Systems? these are important questions and rarely do we think about issues like serviceability. it's easy to say "ARV uses it so it must be great". The truth is that ARV is a very small custom shop. They do not make anywhere near the volume of vans that Winnebago does. Winnebago controls over 30% of the class b market. ARV less than a fraction of a percent. That's a completely different scale of operations. Also we need to take into account the dealer network service centers. dealer service centers are already outpaced by sales of shotty travel trailers. Those travel trailers are clogging service centers across the nation. since dealers are a part of the servicing of Volta systems (e.g. they will be the ones to remove and reinstall any Volta components). Finally, early adopters of the Volta system on the Travato line have reported problems and they have reported that the all-in-one sealed box approach does require that everything go through the dealer and Volta and can be a lengthy process. So I'm not making this stuff up and I believe your assumption that everything will be fine with Volta is not based on facts or research.
Neil, I have been in the 59K bathroom and feel it is roomier than most and like the idea, it is easy to open the doors and create an outdoor shower area. I do not have experience with Volta but do have experience with generators which do require oil changes and maintenance in the same "clogged service centers". My experience with lithium-ion batteries and inverters is they are very reliable, the only moving part is a fan. Which is why I assume the Volta system will also be reliable. Only time will tell.
I don't know what to tell you Paul. I don't bring up the things in my reviews for any other reason than to be of service to my viewers. I have no ulterior motives. My experience now having owned two class b vans is that if you bump your head on something or hit your shoulder against something once then it's likely going to happen again and again and will become a real nuisance. I bumped my head when I sat on the toilet. Full stop. I wasn't trying to bump my head. I didn't want to bump my head. but I did. so I reported on it to be of service to viewers. maybe you sat on the toilet and didn't bump your head. maybe you didn't sit on the toilet. doesn't matter. I point this stuff out so that others will be aware and try it out themselves. sorry if you find that ridiculous.
With regards to the Onan generator. It's serviceability is not at all similar to the Volta system and it would be disingenuous and ignorant of me to say otherwise. The Cummins Onan generator is almost a standard component used across all RVS. Dealers know how to diagnose it and often time do repairs on it themselves. Some dealers even have replacement generators onsite in their parts department. this is nothing like the Volta system. Dealers cannot even diagnose it let alone repair anything or replace anything at their dealerships. I'm glad your experience with lithium ion energy systems for the RV world has been all positive but the truth is that this is not the case for others. You can read their stories on forums and owners' groups. It's fine that you're not worried but my job is to report what I'm hearing and researching. that's what I do full time. I would love to report that early adopters aren't having any issues but sadly that's not the case. as more volta systems get rolled out on a scale Volta has never seen before we'll see how the service network and their own ability to scale holds up. I just think your assumption that Volta won't need servicing or that servicing won't be a problem is out of touch with reality. sorry for being so blunt on the matter.
Neil, you can tell me what the reliability and serviceability with the Ascent L-ion system has been. I think it is logical to scale up the battery system to eliminate the generator. The skill set needed to service a small battery system is the same as a large one. I commend Roadtrek, ARV, Winnebago, ... and others for developing RVs that do not require generators.
I don't Paul. I can find out. the fact is that the Eco-Ion system by Pleasure-way was intentionally designed to be simple and serviceable. it's basically just a lead battery setup with lithium batteries dropped in. you can buy the lithium batteries as replacements yourself off amazon if you like. It is not the same skill set to service it as say Volta. Not even close. First off the battery itself is not sealed. It's an open compartment where you can easily remove and replace batteries. I accept your opinion that you don't like generators and believe that larger capacity lithium battery banks are the way to go. I just don't agree with you. if you've got $25k to spend on a massive lithium battery bank then good on you and you should spend it for the 5% convenience that you're going to get.
The point of my video is that most don't have that kind of money and likely won't spend it and that's okay because they really won't need it. PW's Eco-Ion system covers like 95% of the average person's needs. It's simple to use, serviceable and a _standard feature_ . that kind of system makes sense and you use a generator for the last 5% which means you hardly use it. usage data across the board on rvs prove that out. so for the vast majority of people a system like volta is just overkill and not a good value. I stand by that statement and believe that sales data will prove me correct. there will be others like yourself who will pay the premium and I said as much in my video. I consider it my job to speak to these issues and make the hard calls even if some people don't like my answer.
Finally I don't feel any of the RV manufacturers deserve commendation for sticking large, high margin battery packs into RVs and spending millions of dollars trying to convince us we need it for running the coach AC for long periods of time. if they really cared about our concerns they'd spend more r&d on things like better insulation with higher r-factors to keep the heat out; or how about maybe quiet generator technology? I mean honestly the guys pushing EcoTrek and Volta don't even install resonators on their existing generators which is commonly available! could they at least show us they are trying to address our concerns with a $69 part versus a $25k upgrade? sorry for the rant but we just give these guys way too much praise for the wrong reasons.
I'm not a Winnie hater by any means. I applaud them offering the base models at an affordable level when compared to other manufacturers. I want so bad to love the Travato.. But often missed in reviews of them is their dismal fresh water tank size. In a world (class Bs) where water is already at a premium, the Travatos with this new Volta lithium set-up has DECREASED the tank size to 18 gallons of fresh water. Really limiting these rigs for any legit boon docking for a couple of adults. Is there no more room for a larger tank (how does everyone pull it off?). Is it a weight issue? If so, maybe the new increase in payload capacity for the 2019 Promasters might remedy that. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
hi there. they mount the lithium battery case on the exterior under the carriage taking up part of the space where the fresh water tank would go.
A good assessment, I will have to wait to upgrade from my 59G ;-)
thank you Arvind!
Very nice review! Wow Harvest Host is a Kool Idea! Looks much better than a Regular RV Park! I hope they plan to come to the Midwest like Illinois!
they are pretty cool. I like them as a sponsor. very innovative.