As much as it pains me to say it, I really feel like Magnus is lost. The Primarch Magnus, Son of the Emperor, for all intents and purposes, died during the Heresy. The thing that calls itself the Daemon Primarch Magnus is effectively a different character. I do think it would be interesting to see one of the traitor primarchs turn away from chaos. Not necessarily return to the Imperium. But instead be a renegade primarch. And I think the most fitting for that roll is Perturabo. It seems like they've been laying the groundwork in the HH books to at least retcon his daemonhood ascension. And it would make for more nuanced character and story potential.
Well, if Only Vulkan said: "Yeah why not, I'll sacrifice my Legion that I've worked so hard for and sit on a throne for 10000 years" But a Renegade Primarch with it's own stars and mini-empire is very interesting
I agree totally. I'd love to see if not a redeemed then at least not chaos loyal purty and sons. Funnily enough I feel it's a better angle to take, especially if you consider how fractured some of the still "loyal" primarchs have become. I mean just look at Vulkan, who now doesn't want anything to do with the "Imperium" yet seems to still want to defend humanity. Touch upon that with purty and hey, what better thing for two lost brothers to bond over eh? I also agree Purty is the most likely to leave it all behind, including his chaos tainted sons, since he was never the paragon of compassion in that regard anyway.
My initial thoughts were that the emperor would only think in tactical and logical terms but your argument really swayed me. The comparison between mortarion and abaddon didn’t make as much sense if you think of their reasons for turning to chaos, abaddon was always ready to seek power whereas mortarions choice was driven by desperation / a desire to protect his legion which is much more morally grounded. Great video thanks!
So, here's a potential possibility that's probably been said a billion times. The throne-bound emperor that Guilliman spoke to is a colder, more calculating version of the emperor and is bound to terra, and the one that pardoned Mortarian was a more compassionate fragment that's free in the warp, like the theoretical Starchild.
Likely not, it is more likely we saw the true emperor when he spoke to Mortarion. No one fragment would have the power to scare Nurgle into staying in his Mance. And likely it would’ve taken a great expenditure of power to wound Nurgle after Mortarion was dragged back.
@@vulkansfire9234 also he resurrected Roboute in the lead up to that moment, it's pretty much a case of a divine avatar temporarily in a primarchs body so it was likely that it was the emperor reformed and whole even if it was temporary
My take on the Emperor offering Magnus forgiveness is much the same as him wanting Magnus brought back to Terra - he wanted Magnus sitting on the golden throne to keep the warp rift in check. I’m pretty sure Magnus was intended to be a key component in the Webway project. I have no doubts that the God Emperor of Mankind has the ability to cleanse a truly repentant Primarch. I just don’t think any of them would accept. They’re too bitter & resentful now. The cracks in their psyches that Chaos used to manipulate them have been turned into yawning chasms. Maybe Perterabo…
Perturabo decimating his legion even before coming to chaos... was there a loyalist Primarch that engaged in anything like that once reunited with his legion?
@@TheKlink That's like saying the romans were the best military, when they did the exact same thing, and peter turbo did that to get to warriors back into a much more serious stance
@@TheKlink Perhaps not, but at the same time, Perturabo was meant to be hyper logical, even if he suffered from severe petulance and victimhood complex that at times overtook the logical side. Perturabo's decimation, though inhumane when viewing the Astartes as individual people, is logical in a sense that it isn't that far off from what Private Equity fund managers do to businesses and what the Harvard School of Business teaches its MBAs: you constantly aim to shave off the weakest (least productive) parts from the whole, and in doing so, end up with a slimmer, more efficient force. The decimation was random, which kind of cuts against that argument, but at the same time, sometimes, followers of the Harvard School of Business mentality will force their subordinate managers to lay off people, even if no one's performance was actually layoff-worthy, leading to such massive layoff waves being arbitrary and nonsensical. Of course, we, as people, usually don't look at things that way, in that most people consider the human value of things, where things like worker morale, justification, etc. deserve consideration, as opposed to it being a pure numbers game, but I think that's the point with Perturabo. Apart from the petulance, which is a whole different ballgame of emotional baggage, Perturabo is inhuman because of all the primarchs he is least humane in how he looks at things (just like Harvard School-style Wall Street guys). All he sees are objectives, resources, and the numbers game needed to complete the objective, which is arguably the same way the Emperor looks at Humanity and his grand undertaking of protecting Humanity from the dangers of the Warp.
Clone Fulgrim would be the best case scenario, primarchs are warp gods given form, demon Fulgrim lost what makes him a primarchs, clone Fulgrim has what was lost. When Horus was cloned he didn’t have that warp god part of him because it was permanently gone, when Fulgrim fell, that part of him was gone but not dead, but when a uncorrupted Fulgrim appeared it went there so clone Fulgrim is more or less a true primarch, and any gene son would more or less follow him, not all but maybe the corrupted sons that remember what they truly were.
There is certainly a part of the Emperor that thinks of his sons as weapons or tools. But the Emperor does see them as his sons. We've seen his emotional attachment to them far too many times to believe otherwise. Horus had to beg him to destroy him. He was so sad when he thought about Ferris and vowed to fix that mistake. He wept when he looked upon the dead body of Sanguinius. He made at least 2 attempts to make things right with Magnus. He tried to get Mortarion to come back to his side and when refused he chose not to destroy him. His excitement at seeing Guilliman, a son he believed dead, and saying my son. Arguing with Jaghatai about Chaos and pretty much everything else but still being so content to just stand with Jaghatai and look out into space side by side. These are all examples of his emotional attachment to his sons. I'm sure as more Great Crusade era books come out we will see these kinds of moments with all his sons. I don't think GW will ever redeem them but I do think at times in the story the Emperor will try to save his sons from the hold of Chaos. As such I think we might see him destroy them as he did with Horus to protect them from Chaos. Don't believe that anything but emotional sentiment led to Horus' destruction. We are clearly told that he does so, so that Horus doesn't have to suffer anymore. Hell we might see him try to resurrect his fallen sons: Sanguinius, Ferris Manus, Konrad Curze and Alpharius. Not sure anything could bring back Horus.
Because if he turns Magnus back he can orchestrate his leaving the throne. Magnus will be sat upon the throne. When I read the fury of Magnus, I couldn't help wonder was the emperor offering Magnus the Grey Knights?
Perhaps it would have been more nuanced, the will to sacrifice that which you love for the betterment of mankind instead of what would doom it for millennia, was what he was looking for, with a still possible chance of saving a part of the legion, or of he explained properly why they couldn't be saved with a promise to help him with making a new legion after the mess. Even if a lie on that last one, it would have been better. This coming from a person eho enjoys both Magnus and Leman Russ
Grey Knights would have been one choice. The other would have been a reborn XV legion - just skmething that came to mind. Purge the original (brutal, yes) but remake it again, this time without the downsides (mutations, etc,) I think Magnus saw both options but discarded the reborn XV idea because it would take way too long. And he had already lost plenty.
@@Fatties09 funny enough, if he saw this far into the future of 40k, he probably could have chosen the latter having realized the untold suffering and fuck ups his sons will commit, especially Ahrimman
From the HH books, I feel like the concept of soul shards is big part of this. Horus had his humanity carved out by Malcador to save his life after rhe wound from Russ (Slaves to Darkness) while Magnus chose inhumanity in Fury of Magnus. Mortarion, like his legion probably remains one of the most... whole Traitor Primarchs and as such redeemable. I feel like Angron and Fulgrim are gone, while Perturabo still just needs a hug. Alpharius isn't demonic and is acting in good interests so totally redeemable. As to the E wanting to redeem them, that...split aspect applies to him, both in how vast his awareness now is but also in how its been shattered by 10k of pain. I think the gestalt wants to redeem his sons, some out of love (he didn't want to kill Horus even after everything and even after Sanguinius was killed until he realised there was no humanity left) and some out of utility - another card in my hand and not that of Chaos. However it's possible that a more vengeful aspect could arise at another point... especially if the plot demanded it.
Redemption checklist: ✔️ Mortarion takes a bath. ✔️ Magnus gets a haircut and puts a shirt on. ✔️ Angron goes to anger management. ✔️ ✔️ ✔️ Purterabo, Fulgrim and Alpharius (the living one) all go to family therapy with the Emperor.
mangus looks like a weird case. the emperor sent russ just to fetch him, but horus told russ to kill his planet. the emperor should have clearly stated to him that it was not his doing and that was already more than enough punishment. im not sure why magnus would have turned if he knew all of this, that it was horus doing, not the emperor's i think that having 1-2 redeemed primarchs would be interesting, but all of them sounds a bit too "not 40k"
Question for you all - if any of the traitors could be redeemed, wouldn't it most likely be Perturabo? Of them all, his is the most tragic in the sense that he could have been brought back into the light. Can he still?
He is a demon primarch as far as we know, but vocally hates gods in general and chaos in specific. He is decently likely, but its debatable if he is most likely. If alpharius or omegon is still around in hiding, them going renegade instead of full chaos could also happen
@@Memelord1117 that's true. He could also be demon like if he is now more machine than man, because last we saw him his health was failing due to fulgrim so he clearly had to do SOMETHING to save himself because he is still around. He may be a demon, may be basically a dreadnought, may be a cyborg, or something else entirely
@@davidthomas2870 he is the smartest primarch, so he may have thought of something... perhaps the imperial fists geneseeds weren't actually given to the gods of chaos, for for an experiment of his.
To be fair, Angron is probably the only traitor Primarch who actually has very reasonable (ironically) reasons to despise the Emperor. With the Emperor’s biomancy and psychic gifts, he could have removed the nails, it may have been hard, and it may even have killed Angron, but he could have tried. He did not, however. Instead he left his son broken mentally and physically, because “a broken Primarch is better than no Primarch at all”. He also let the entirety of Angron’s forces die on Nuceria despite having the power to easily help them, and despite the fact that being gladiators, likely would have made for excellent recruits for the Imperium. Lastly, Angron, perhaps more than any other Primarch save maybe Corax (who loved the Emperor) and The Khan (who considered the Emperor a necessary evil) was opposed to the tyranny the Imperium represented. I truly think that if he had been better represented in the Heresy, he’d have become way more popular because I think an argument could be made that he butchered the planets he conquered as a small act of rebellion against a tyrant he could never hope to defeat. Now add in the fact that the Butcher’s Nails made him constantly desire bloodshed, and caused him ceaseless unending agony when he wasn’t killing, and it’s a miracle he didn’t kill his sons or try to kill his brother’s sooner. Indeed, it is a testament to his immense willpower that he was capable of logical thought at all
@@ukaszbiaek6641 Kind of, it was retconned that his legion were the ones that did it instead of the Emperor, but genuinely, why the Emperor didn’t unleash the War Hounds instead of planning to simply watch the battle unfold is absolutely baffling to me.
I would love to see Magnus' redemption, however unlikely it is. You know how Blood Ravens have strong implications that they're actually a successors of Thousand Sons? The main reason Magnus refused the last offer at redemption was because it would mean losing all sons of his own. Now if he saw that some of his sons are still around the Imperium, loyal and not suffering the flesh change or straight up being walking walking hourglasses, maybe that could be a kick that he needs to start fighting back against Tzeentch and with the help of the Emperor overcome his influence.
The issue with it still lies another possibility, that being the necessity to find all the pieces of Magnus' soul, and reconstruct him, bar Janus, but not much we can do about that, as I don't recall what happened to that shard
@@yogstrooperdock We don't know what happened to that shard. It may have returned to Magnus, or gone to chill somewhere else, or just slipped into Kaldor Draigo (would explain his OPness).
Turbo Is maybe only viable one …… Magnus refused ,….. everyone else too far gone in the chaos juice.. Nobody really wants Angron , or Logar ……. Maybe Alpharius too is worth a shot .
I just want Angron to be written competently man, he’s got amazing potential if he’s written well but the memes are really hard for writers to resist it seems
I think Alpharius is very possible, but i also think theyre not fully loyal, or traitor. Its far more likely that theyve been playing the long game for balance in the end.
My knowledge of the the lore is a touch rusty, but I recall something about Mortarion being a bit narked of with Nurgle. So if the Emperor manages to save Mortarion from Nurgle's clutches, and bring him back into the material world, that might go someway to restoring the relationship between Mortarion and the Emperor.
Yeah, in the Plague War trilogy, Big E possesses with Bobby G when fighting Morty and claims that possibly one day he could one day be saved from that hell, but for now - he has to suffer Nurgle's displeasure. So, I honestly don't think its off the table.
Let's be honest, none of the Traitosr would ever be redeemed. Even the Fulgrim situation would need to be blanketed by Roboute, even if by a miracle he accepted his brother's apology, there's millennia of hatred directed towards the objectively most HATED chaos traitors, the Emperor's Children. If Clonegrim was to rejoin to Imperium, he would need to do so under some new alias and banner and considering he is a giant man with genius intellect and the prettiest face ever, he would stand out like a pacifist World Eater. But I think I have an idea : Clonegrim rejoins the Imperium under the banner of one of the lost legions, make some excuse so he always has to wear a helmet and a voice synthetizer. Probably give him some Primaris soldier from traitor geneseed too. It's a HUGE stretch, but it's the only way to achieve the smallest amount of trust.
I think Magnus is a good candidate to, if not rejoin the Imperium, help out the "good" guys. He's way less dickish than the other daemon primarchs and after he came back and reconquered Prospero, he seems surprisingly...chill...he's basically just sitting there and calling for all the psykers in the Imperium to come there.
Depends if they are still tainted of the warp gods if not that itself is one long redemption arc. They would probably would work under custodes and a few high ranking commissars only because of the obvious.
Out of the traitors magnus the red does deserve a second chance for forgiveness he tried warning the imperium of horus falling yes heresy I know but he was cohered into falling
To answer the question, we must go to a different game franchise. Legacy of Kain. The proposition was, you flip a coin, knowing that if it's heads, time repeats itself, tails, everything ends. The titular character choses heads every time. Why? He hopes that somehow, someday, the coin will land on it's edge.
@@kelman727 "No, is not the same, the worship of the God Emperor has to be at heart, a genuine sentiment of communion and understanding. Not a desperation messaure of self preservation and idoctrination for the masses."
I don't think any of the Primarch's are lost (aside from the ones that are dead). But I believe the Emperor can save them. I mean he's the Emperor. Then you mentioned in another video about shards and what not. There must be the fatherly side of the Emperor may be still there? It would certainly make the Emperor interesting as even if he is an all powerful being he is now a regretful father. That humanises him. Maybe the Emperor relearns something that he lost in all his warmongering, compassion.
Magnus' Shards are stated to all be equal by Malcador, that it's Magnus holding clinging to that false hope. This means that yes, Magnus can be reforged and freed from Tzeentch.
I feel that only in the end times could a traitor primarch be redeemed and my money would be on Magnus, as a) the Lord of change would be very interested in the paradigm shifting change the end times would be so my actually allow Magnus to leave b) some form of reversal of the Rubric would guarantee his loyalty, he's the primarch that was on reasonable terms with the Emperor and was basically backed into a corner when he fell.
Konrad Curze and Night Haunter can be made ino two different characters in the future. One a Primarch, One a Daemon. Maybe that Night Haunter aspect of him died when he was beheaded and it is now in the hands of Chaos. Maybe his protected soul within that Eldar style gem keeps his sanity safe and ready to be reborn a Primarch more similar to his loyalist brothers? Or maybe it is attempted and just doesn't work as the Emperor intended him to fall all along. As that is the only way to create the human psykers needed to survive the Tyranids.
It would make sense in that as the Emperor ascends to godhood in the warp if he can get his sons back who worship other gods it would add to his power and weaken theirs
Fulgrim is unredeemable, Lorgar is unredeemable, Angron is Unredeemable, Mortarion and Perturabo however, most likely are. Magnus is as well, and possibly Omegon.
He planted a seed within Mortarion, it will be there now in the back of his head nagging away at him. Could he be released from his bonds with Nurgle. As much as he had issues with the Emperor, I feel he knows he has it worse with Nurgle. He is already fighting back against Nurgle and doing his own thing, whatever punishment Nurgke hands out, could be the tipping point. Mortarion betrays Nurgle, frees the Elder Goddess, and begs his father for redemption. Thyhus is already basically leading the Plague Marines anyway and will only grow in power now Mortarion is in the bad books.
Comment pt.2 I can see Konrad, if being redirected by elder tech via soul stone being more inclined to return. If Vulken’s insanity was cured by his death, why couldn’t Konrads?
@@astormofwrenches5555 Wrong. he wasn't insane from the start, he became insane during his uprising as a child because he had no guidance. If he would have landed on Ultramar for example or Prospero, we would have a completely different Konrad.
Maybe the emperor saw some of the traitor primarchs be forgiven in a vision but he is willing to save all of his sons even the ones who had a powerful motive to betray.
I figure some aspect of the emporer probably wants them back as their father, and taking them back would both regain their usefulness and deny them to the arch enemy so it also would be strategically useful, but destroying them would the next best thing in that vein. In a tactical sense, having them believe they could come back introduces the doubt in their minds and cause them to hesitate so as not to loose that chance.
Unless you're a father, a person might not understand this. I have a family member with a son, his eldest, that became an utter dirt-bag. He was once a capable, highly ranked attorney, but not anymore. His father feels much as the Emperor does, hoping that his son will overcome the fall.
IMHO the only two Primarchs worthy of any salvaging efforts are Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon. The rest of them is either too far gone or, even if redeemed somehow, will simply fall yet again. I don't know why people are putting so much hope in Fulgrim's clone. He's just that - a clone, still representing each and every character trait that had led original Primarch astray. One may argue if Fulgrim would remain loyal without the Blade of Laer as a catalyst of his corruption but if the only thing needed to break one of Emperor's Chosen was some magic trinket, there's no guarantee the story wouldn't repeat itself.
Here's something that I don't think a lot of people don't consider, that the choice the Emperor gave Magnus was a trap, a trick, something to use to determine Magnus's character. Why do I say this? Because in every medium we have experienced, whether it be video games, books, movies, TV, whatever, THAT is the MORAL choice, and what was that choice? Personal redemption and power (a new and powerful legion above all others) but in exchange the lives and indeed the souls of all your sons, your loyal sons. I think that by choosing his sons Magnus showed his character and ironically showed that there would always be that window for him. This is even shown to exist in the Era of the demon "evil" Magnus where even with his full transformation and the loss of his "good" shard, Magnus still looks after his legion and looks to cure them. Magnus then, just as now, puts his legion, his sons, before himself. What do we call that trait? Do we call that the trait of a villain? Would Sauron/Morgoth put the Orcs before themselves? Would Voldemort put his Death Eaters before himself? What do you think?
Fulgrim is the only one i see getting a full scale return because hes the one who has a demon form an original form in the same universe so GW wouldn't have to trade anything
I still want to see Ferrus the Dreadnought Primarch. Or, you could enslave a traitor Primarch in a Dreadnought. Or the 2nd or 11th. Powerful, and mindslaved to following orders. You can't get grimmer or darker.
I think the emporer plays the long game for sure. He's already been around for 40+ thousand years if it takes his sons 20k years to come back to him he dont sweat it
When the Emperor told him to save his brothers, I think we have to consider what Guilleman said of the whole interchange. The Emperor regarded him not as a father reuniting with a son but a craftsman who found a tool he had thought lost for a long time. He was actually saying "collect and retrieve the other tools." Magnus would be the most important to power the astronomican. Lion El'Johnson could be the new Warmaster to retake the dark imperium. Everyone else, missing or ascended to daemonhood, is just a wayward tool.
I know little of the setting and have never played the game or read any books yet.. what I know of the 40K setting I've learned over the past 2 yrs via youtube. How ever, I think the way it should go down is similar to the way "emperors text to speech" I see in it to many families I have had XP with, mine and others I know... As funny as it is I can see the truth of it and how it should be, yes, keep the grim durp stuff but I think it would be a grand outline for how it could go... Keep in mind I'm just a person looking in from the outside...😶🌫
Here's a hypothesis. What if the Emperor purposely let half of the Primarchs become traitors as a weapon against chaos like some kind of strange Trojan Horse strategy. As if all of the Primarchs had a secret part of their souls that that chaos gods couldn't see, and it contained some kind of anti-chaos anathema energy that would kill the chaos gods from the inside out.
I think story wise, one of the traitor primarchs will seek redemption. It's just too good of a story to pass up for an author and gw I feel like. How will chaos react? How will the other primarchs react? How will the emperor react? How will the imperium react? I don't see more than one Turning back though. And also if he will even survive or be killed by chaos or by the imperium.
I like the idea of the Emperor being the 5th Chaos God of Faith (the positive side being hope, loyalty, and belief while the negatives are fanaticism, propaganda and bigotry) , so him being consumed by blind hope is fitting. The other Chaos Gods exemplify the aspects they represent after all.
I’m surprised that perturabo wasn’t brought up, isn’t he actively trying to reverse his daemon ascension? Seems like the emperor would have a chance with him
Not to mention that in the battle eith Guilliman and Mortariom when the Guilli was possed by the Emps and smashed the ass of the Big Reaper. Mortariom prayocally becomes crasy and losts himself in that moment no believing in what the situation become.
If anyone I'd like to see come back and honestly see as the most likely is Mortarion. Dude never outright wanted to join to begin with but was manipulated. Secondly his legion and nurgle all treat him like ass. And he's always miserable and is just like "well this is life now I guess 🤷🏻♂️". I could see him being interested, even slightly, even if it it being impossible to get saved or not
I think we're seeing the Emperor as...well, saying he's a different person would be incorrect, but I think we're seeing a very different side of the Emperor. As the man who had to conquer the galaxy to secure it for humanity or against Chaos, he had to become a ruthless and calculating warlord. He was fighting against aliens and rival planetary conquerors in a hostile galaxy, sure, but the chief enemy of the Great Crusade was Chaos. After Long Night, the Chaos Gods would be stronger than ever before, and they were an enemy that chiefly used weapons far more metaphysical and subtle than bullets and chainswords. A whisper of arcane knowledge. An offering made on a brass altar. A vision in the night that promised a perfect life. This was an enemy that simple force of arms couldn't eradicate, but it was the best facilitator to bringing everyone within reach to the doctrine of the Imperial Truth or wiping them away if it couldn't take. This was a war of ideas and secrets where the lives and souls of as much as all of humanity was on the line. This was a war that had to be won at all costs, which nothing could be considered above sacrificing for victory. Not his sons. Not himself. As sad and as brutal as considering his own progeny to be worth using as playing pieces to be used and, if necessary, discarded, the Emperor of the GC era had made himself into a man that was willing to make that play. I think defeat and death had taught the Emperor not only a lesson in humility, but gave him room to change his priorities. After shifting from the brutal conqueror to the defender of what he had built, and more than ten thousand years of staving off Chaos and overseeing and protecting an Imperium where tens of millions of humble men and women die with praise of Him on their lips every day, his priorities shifted. As much as he had been the warlord, he was now perhaps being the man he had been before, as meaningful as that phrase can be now that he's the God-Emperor. He had to remove traitors beforehand, but now, it was within his power to redeem them, and he would offer his sons that chance if no one else. tl:dr: It's easy to see Big E evolving as a character between the HH and Godblight.
Some plot twists could be hilarious. Like Lorgar. « Ok, dad, you were right, the Chaos Gods are a bunch or c*nts… but I was also kinda right, you’re a God now. So… let’s call it even and let me worship you again ? » Magnus ? Well he’s been the more hinted for. Perty ? The guy is all salt and bile… Morty ? Sounds unlikely too Angron And Fulgril ? It really sounds like that ship has sailed though ^^
Fulgrim would be the easiest honestly since there's already a non-chaos fulgrim out there somewhere. A clonegrim/Gorilla man team up against demon fulgrim would be excellent, especially if clonegrim, swordsman that he is, gets to wield the emperor's sword. For the other primarchs it would depend. I don't know if the emperor has anything to offer Angron, Perty, or Lorgar. Angron never wanted the emperor's help while Lorgar has already found what he was looking for in the emperor in chaos instead and perty has grown as a person and doesn't need validation anymore so the emperor doesn't have enything to give to him really. Morty doesn't like tyrants and could probably be convinced to go back to the emperor after having been a slave to nurgle. Mortarion trying to defeat nurgle as the emperor watches would be a cool parallel to how the emperor met morty. If they got a thematic redo and the emperor got it right that time then I could see it. Magnus might work if the emperor can fix the rubric and can give magnus the noble shard of his soul. He would need to do that no strings attached. Magnus didn't like the emperor dangling a reward in front of him but leaving his sons behind the last time the emperor tried to win him back and unless the emperor is entirely selfless next time magnus won't go for it. kurz is dead. Your guess is as good as mine here. Maybe he'll show up in the Legion of the Damned? that would be cool
If The Emperor wants to save Angron, he's going to have to do it in some extremely smart manner or use brute force to do it... and then somehow figure out how to get rid of the Butchers Nails. Those things are apparently still functioning after 10000 years and were killing Angron before Lorgar forcefully ascended him to daemonhood.
@D Goodfellow very much so. I still don't understand why the emperor decided on simply teleporting angron up to his battleship, and then over to the Conqueror even though most of the XII and the Emperor and his Custodes were up there. Angron would still suffer from the Nails but it'd be harder to turn him if those actions had been taken.
The Emperor if anything is practical. He would redeem them. He also might assassinate them personally and create new Primarchs. New Primarchs with the advancements of the Primarus project.
Ture and we don't know the fate of both heads of the Hydra one is KIA and the other we simply do not know. I hope we will get one day confirmation on his fate. As even, Roboute Guillimanwas not convinced that he killed his Brother.
Part of me would say yes, but part of me would say no. The fallen primarchs all express some modicum of regret for falling to the ruinous treachery of Chaos. I certainly would like to see their redemption, but I think they’re too polluted/warped by evil. 🤷♂️ I think the spirit of the emperor possessing Guilliman and setting Nurgle’s garden ablaze was proof of that. He’s done with Chaos and it’s influence. He’s now on spiritual and physical offense. He’s taking the fight directly to the forces of evil, wherever they may be cowering in fear. That was the coolest part of that bit in the book. Nurgle actually feeling fear. Sort of echoing Neil Patrick Harris putting his hand on the “brain bug” and exclaiming, “IT’S AFRAID!”.
If anything I think we'll get a badass death match between Daemon Fulgrim, and his clone that will be a Loyalist. I also see a route to redemption for Perturabo, Morty, and Magnus.
@@FuriousWojtek I absolutely loved the fulgrim books and in my headcanon I still believe that it's the daemon which took control of fulgrim and trapped his soul and because of his pride he could never admit the truth that he's not fulgrim, hence he pretends to be the original. Fulgrims soul somehow landed in the fabius bile's clone, making the clone perfect
Fulcrums clone is out there, asphaltarius or omicron may still be loyal, and Magnuts could be brought back with his shards. Marty mc covered in flies could be cleansed by the emperor and pertu ‘the iron cage’ Johnson could be brought back if daddy just gave him a Lego set. All the others can take a warp Tripp with their geller field off. Atleast that’s how I understand it
I always questioned, why didn’t he send Jaghatai to Magnus? It would’ve shown that the emperor wasn’t going to destroy his legion. But Horus you say ? Emperor should’ve sent direct orders instead of having Horus do so.
To be fair, it’s implied that Jaghatai is *mystically* hard to read. Like you couldn’t read his mind if you wanted to. His gift is to be unknowable according to the Emperor himself, he was always a wild card so asking him to do anything specific is a risk.
Maybe he understands, or has begun to understand, how powerful he has become and that his power is continuing to grow... Maybe he feels that if he can cause a fault in a demon Primarch's belief in their Chaos God he can purge or weaken enough corruption that he can possibly redeem some of his sons...
Each of the traitor primarch's quirks perfectly fits each of the chaos realm's very basic nature: Fulgrim's obsession to pleasure, Magnus' thirst for knowledge, Angron's emphatic uncontrollable rage, and Mortarian's necromantic hardiness. Too perfect to be a random chance of genetic engineering. Why would the Emperor engineer inherent weaknesses in his primarchs if he didn't intend them to fall to the ruinous powers eventually. He planned the whole thing. He purposely intended them to fall in order to serve as Trojan horses and conquer the chaos realms eventually. My theory is that he still maintains a one-way telephatic link with all of his fallen sons to gather more information from the chaos realms and devise ways how to invade it.
are there books of when eperor meets the primarchs? I KNOW OF LIONEL JOHNSON MORTARIAN THE NAILS HORUS THERE OTHER PRIMARCH BOOKS MEETING EMPERE FIRST TIME
I have a feeling... GW probably can't make this all have a happy ending, but if they backslide on this at the end of it, they're going to fuck up even more. So, I suspect that while some of the traitors may not redeemed, they may still abandon the Chaos Gods to become their own men; Renegade lords with their own systems, sometimes allying with the Imperium at large, other times in conflict with it.
The thing is, we keep thinking of saving the Primarchs' bodies. This is no possible they are the Warp gods now. and as Masterful as you want to say they are, they are only flesh and repeatable. What the Emperor is after and we should be as well, are their souls. If I understand it, the soul is are discarded and replaced when turned to Daemon Princes. This is also why Fabius Bile could only manage one perfect clone of Fulgrim because he needed to get the soul and get it right. So the Emperor is more interested in saving their souls, and he could possibly manage to restore them to new bodies... Fabulous bowel did manage to perfect physical bodies of the primarchs he cloned.
@Wolf Lord Rho Ill be very happy to get you see that 100k plaque my friend... Cheers! Edit: Also didn't the Big E tell Magnus a second time he could be redeemed. Something along the lines of for now you must go back to your master, but someday you possibly could be redeemed? Or am I just confusing that with the chat during the siege of Terra?
So… Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim I would consider non starters. Horus and Konrad Curze are dead, Perturabo is the epitome of stubborn and would not have been prone to ever changing his mind even before his betrayal, Lorgar worships Chaos so that is out… so the only real options would be Magnus or Alpharius (if applicable as it’s unknown where Alpharius allegiance even resides).
Emperor to Lorgar.... "well I hate to say it, but you were right. And your plans made me the God I never wanted to be. But you saved humanity..... so... sorry."
It just makes me sad that if I was in 40k, I’d probably be on a Hive World instead of a “normal space marine.” I’d have so much fun if I was an Exodite Eldar.
Well. In the forst oportunity the Big E fucked with Nurgle and his Garden. I ask few things. -How Hard would be to the Emperor do this? -How many he would give redemption? -What he wil achieve with that? -And whats next?
All speculation about redemption for the traitor primes, i wonder What the 2 missing/unknown primes must have done? Or could what happened to them, be the reason why redemption is on the table?
While I think it's possible to redeem them all, I think only Magnus and Mortarion that could work without a lot of ass pulls as they both were more forced and tricked into falling to their Chaos God's. Fulgrim far as I'm concerned didn't turn traitor, as he was being manipulated and taken over by the Laerblade, so it's possible for Clonegrim to get the soul from the Blade and be reborn. I also think Curze could be helped and redeemed if he is infact alive and out there somewhere. Lorgar is to loyal to Chaos as they are everything he has ever believed in, Perturabo would never allow himself to return as he would have to first admit he was wrong and Angron...he's to far gone and should be given the mercy he deserves.
I'd like to see Fulgrim's clone make it out of Trazyn's pokeball eventually
Guilliman, Clonegrim and Legion of the Damned Ferrus vs Rape Snake Daemon Fulgrim is my ultimate dream clash in 40K
@@pentacosttb2565 that's an interesting one right there.
@@pentacosttb2565 How dare you forget about RYANOR, THE ANCIENT OF RITES(damned version) in this battle?
@@macshadow1150 I thought he died during his trap for Fulgrim???
@@SilentNight115 Yes, but he should return as vengefull ghost.
As much as it pains me to say it, I really feel like Magnus is lost. The Primarch Magnus, Son of the Emperor, for all intents and purposes, died during the Heresy. The thing that calls itself the Daemon Primarch Magnus is effectively a different character.
I do think it would be interesting to see one of the traitor primarchs turn away from chaos. Not necessarily return to the Imperium. But instead be a renegade primarch. And I think the most fitting for that roll is Perturabo. It seems like they've been laying the groundwork in the HH books to at least retcon his daemonhood ascension. And it would make for more nuanced character and story potential.
Well, if Only Vulkan said:
"Yeah why not, I'll sacrifice my Legion that I've worked so hard for and sit on a throne for 10000 years"
But a Renegade Primarch with it's own stars and mini-empire
is very interesting
What about omegon?? And what if logar meets the star child?
i think that 1 redeemed and 1 rogue would be the best. 2 redeemed is too not grimdarkey
I agree totally. I'd love to see if not a redeemed then at least not chaos loyal purty and sons. Funnily enough I feel it's a better angle to take, especially if you consider how fractured some of the still "loyal" primarchs have become. I mean just look at Vulkan, who now doesn't want anything to do with the "Imperium" yet seems to still want to defend humanity. Touch upon that with purty and hey, what better thing for two lost brothers to bond over eh? I also agree Purty is the most likely to leave it all behind, including his chaos tainted sons, since he was never the paragon of compassion in that regard anyway.
@@John-jc3ty a loyalist should turn traitor
My initial thoughts were that the emperor would only think in tactical and logical terms but your argument really swayed me. The comparison between mortarion and abaddon didn’t make as much sense if you think of their reasons for turning to chaos, abaddon was always ready to seek power whereas mortarions choice was driven by desperation / a desire to protect his legion which is much more morally grounded. Great video thanks!
So, here's a potential possibility that's probably been said a billion times. The throne-bound emperor that Guilliman spoke to is a colder, more calculating version of the emperor and is bound to terra, and the one that pardoned Mortarian was a more compassionate fragment that's free in the warp, like the theoretical Starchild.
Likely not, it is more likely we saw the true emperor when he spoke to Mortarion. No one fragment would have the power to scare Nurgle into staying in his Mance. And likely it would’ve taken a great expenditure of power to wound Nurgle after Mortarion was dragged back.
@@vulkansfire9234 also he resurrected Roboute in the lead up to that moment, it's pretty much a case of a divine avatar temporarily in a primarchs body so it was likely that it was the emperor reformed and whole even if it was temporary
@@John-jc3ty Heresy.
@@John-jc3ty
Make him repent.......Azmodai 😡 🤣
My take on the Emperor offering Magnus forgiveness is much the same as him wanting Magnus brought back to Terra - he wanted Magnus sitting on the golden throne to keep the warp rift in check. I’m pretty sure Magnus was intended to be a key component in the Webway project.
I have no doubts that the God Emperor of Mankind has the ability to cleanse a truly repentant Primarch. I just don’t think any of them would accept. They’re too bitter & resentful now. The cracks in their psyches that Chaos used to manipulate them have been turned into yawning chasms.
Maybe Perterabo…
I still think daemon primarch peter turbo is still imperial fist, and imperial propaganda...
Perturabo decimating his legion even before coming to chaos... was there a loyalist Primarch that engaged in anything like that once reunited with his legion?
Just watch TTS for Magnus
@@TheKlink That's like saying the romans were the best military, when they did the exact same thing, and peter turbo did that to get to warriors back into a much more serious stance
@@TheKlink Perhaps not, but at the same time, Perturabo was meant to be hyper logical, even if he suffered from severe petulance and victimhood complex that at times overtook the logical side. Perturabo's decimation, though inhumane when viewing the Astartes as individual people, is logical in a sense that it isn't that far off from what Private Equity fund managers do to businesses and what the Harvard School of Business teaches its MBAs: you constantly aim to shave off the weakest (least productive) parts from the whole, and in doing so, end up with a slimmer, more efficient force. The decimation was random, which kind of cuts against that argument, but at the same time, sometimes, followers of the Harvard School of Business mentality will force their subordinate managers to lay off people, even if no one's performance was actually layoff-worthy, leading to such massive layoff waves being arbitrary and nonsensical.
Of course, we, as people, usually don't look at things that way, in that most people consider the human value of things, where things like worker morale, justification, etc. deserve consideration, as opposed to it being a pure numbers game, but I think that's the point with Perturabo. Apart from the petulance, which is a whole different ballgame of emotional baggage, Perturabo is inhuman because of all the primarchs he is least humane in how he looks at things (just like Harvard School-style Wall Street guys). All he sees are objectives, resources, and the numbers game needed to complete the objective, which is arguably the same way the Emperor looks at Humanity and his grand undertaking of protecting Humanity from the dangers of the Warp.
Clone Fulgrim would be the best case scenario, primarchs are warp gods given form, demon Fulgrim lost what makes him a primarchs, clone Fulgrim has what was lost. When Horus was cloned he didn’t have that warp god part of him because it was permanently gone, when Fulgrim fell, that part of him was gone but not dead, but when a uncorrupted Fulgrim appeared it went there so clone Fulgrim is more or less a true primarch, and any gene son would more or less follow him, not all but maybe the corrupted sons that remember what they truly were.
Maybe since the Emperor was using RG maybe he was using RG's feelings as well. As angry as RG felt he would still rescue his brothers if he could.
There is certainly a part of the Emperor that thinks of his sons as weapons or tools. But the Emperor does see them as his sons.
We've seen his emotional attachment to them far too many times to believe otherwise.
Horus had to beg him to destroy him.
He was so sad when he thought about Ferris and vowed to fix that mistake.
He wept when he looked upon the dead body of Sanguinius.
He made at least 2 attempts to make things right with Magnus.
He tried to get Mortarion to come back to his side and when refused he chose not to destroy him.
His excitement at seeing Guilliman, a son he believed dead, and saying my son.
Arguing with Jaghatai about Chaos and pretty much everything else but still being so content to just stand with Jaghatai and look out into space side by side.
These are all examples of his emotional attachment to his sons. I'm sure as more Great Crusade era books come out we will see these kinds of moments with all his sons.
I don't think GW will ever redeem them but I do think at times in the story the Emperor will try to save his sons from the hold of Chaos. As such I think we might see him destroy them as he did with Horus to protect them from Chaos.
Don't believe that anything but emotional sentiment led to Horus' destruction. We are clearly told that he does so, so that Horus doesn't have to suffer anymore.
Hell we might see him try to resurrect his fallen sons: Sanguinius, Ferris Manus, Konrad Curze and Alpharius. Not sure anything could bring back Horus.
Because if he turns Magnus back he can orchestrate his leaving the throne. Magnus will be sat upon the throne.
When I read the fury of Magnus, I couldn't help wonder was the emperor offering Magnus the Grey Knights?
With the death of his own legion being big E's idea. and his offer was so terrible, vulkan even said he would've left
Perhaps it would have been more nuanced, the will to sacrifice that which you love for the betterment of mankind instead of what would doom it for millennia, was what he was looking for, with a still possible chance of saving a part of the legion, or of he explained properly why they couldn't be saved with a promise to help him with making a new legion after the mess. Even if a lie on that last one, it would have been better. This coming from a person eho enjoys both Magnus and Leman Russ
Grey Knights would have been one choice. The other would have been a reborn XV legion - just skmething that came to mind. Purge the original (brutal, yes) but remake it again, this time without the downsides (mutations, etc,) I think Magnus saw both options but discarded the reborn XV idea because it would take way too long. And he had already lost plenty.
@@Fatties09 funny enough, if he saw this far into the future of 40k, he probably could have chosen the latter having realized the untold suffering and fuck ups his sons will commit, especially Ahrimman
@The Dead Wulfe right? I don't put it beyond Magnus to have seen it and discarded it in the heat of the moment.
From the HH books, I feel like the concept of soul shards is big part of this. Horus had his humanity carved out by Malcador to save his life after rhe wound from Russ (Slaves to Darkness) while Magnus chose inhumanity in Fury of Magnus. Mortarion, like his legion probably remains one of the most... whole Traitor Primarchs and as such redeemable. I feel like Angron and Fulgrim are gone, while Perturabo still just needs a hug. Alpharius isn't demonic and is acting in good interests so totally redeemable.
As to the E wanting to redeem them, that...split aspect applies to him, both in how vast his awareness now is but also in how its been shattered by 10k of pain. I think the gestalt wants to redeem his sons, some out of love (he didn't want to kill Horus even after everything and even after Sanguinius was killed until he realised there was no humanity left) and some out of utility - another card in my hand and not that of Chaos.
However it's possible that a more vengeful aspect could arise at another point... especially if the plot demanded it.
It wasn't Malcador, it was Maloghurst who killed the last good part of Hours.
@@danielbowen3266 gah, that's who I meant. Brain fart on my part.
Redemption checklist:
✔️ Mortarion takes a bath.
✔️ Magnus gets a haircut and puts a shirt on.
✔️ Angron goes to anger management.
✔️ ✔️ ✔️ Purterabo, Fulgrim and Alpharius (the living one) all go to family therapy with the Emperor.
Nah slannesh can keep fulgrim
Angron's problem is the nails in his head though. hat keeps him mad...
@@CountDVB some disclosure, I don't think Mortarion simply needs to take a bath either.
mangus looks like a weird case. the emperor sent russ just to fetch him, but horus told russ to kill his planet. the emperor should have clearly stated to him that it was not his doing and that was already more than enough punishment. im not sure why magnus would have turned if he knew all of this, that it was horus doing, not the emperor's
i think that having 1-2 redeemed primarchs would be interesting, but all of them sounds a bit too "not 40k"
No, he pretty much knew ot was Horus' doing, seeing as he had a mostly clear vision of the other primarchs other than himself
Question for you all - if any of the traitors could be redeemed, wouldn't it most likely be Perturabo? Of them all, his is the most tragic in the sense that he could have been brought back into the light. Can he still?
He is a demon primarch as far as we know, but vocally hates gods in general and chaos in specific. He is decently likely, but its debatable if he is most likely. If alpharius or omegon is still around in hiding, them going renegade instead of full chaos could also happen
@@davidthomas2870 Daemon perturabo could be propaganda, since we've never seen him as a daemon yet.
@@Memelord1117 that's true. He could also be demon like if he is now more machine than man, because last we saw him his health was failing due to fulgrim so he clearly had to do SOMETHING to save himself because he is still around. He may be a demon, may be basically a dreadnought, may be a cyborg, or something else entirely
@@davidthomas2870 he is the smartest primarch, so he may have thought of something... perhaps the imperial fists geneseeds weren't actually given to the gods of chaos, for for an experiment of his.
“You are as much a victim as a monster Mortarion, perhaps one day you might be saved. But for now… you must return to the master you chose.”
All he had to do was love Lorgar. I mean if Lorgar simply stayed loyal Erebus wouldn’t have gotten onto his bs
I reckon he’d be open to any of them returning to the fold except Lorgar and Angron.
I don't think he wouldn't take Angron, but Angron wouldn't want to go.
To be fair, Angron is probably the only traitor Primarch who actually has very reasonable (ironically) reasons to despise the Emperor. With the Emperor’s biomancy and psychic gifts, he could have removed the nails, it may have been hard, and it may even have killed Angron, but he could have tried. He did not, however. Instead he left his son broken mentally and physically, because “a broken Primarch is better than no Primarch at all”. He also let the entirety of Angron’s forces die on Nuceria despite having the power to easily help them, and despite the fact that being gladiators, likely would have made for excellent recruits for the Imperium. Lastly, Angron, perhaps more than any other Primarch save maybe Corax (who loved the Emperor) and The Khan (who considered the Emperor a necessary evil) was opposed to the tyranny the Imperium represented. I truly think that if he had been better represented in the Heresy, he’d have become way more popular because I think an argument could be made that he butchered the planets he conquered as a small act of rebellion against a tyrant he could never hope to defeat.
Now add in the fact that the Butcher’s Nails made him constantly desire bloodshed, and caused him ceaseless unending agony when he wasn’t killing, and it’s a miracle he didn’t kill his sons or try to kill his brother’s sooner. Indeed, it is a testament to his immense willpower that he was capable of logical thought at all
@@Mr.Monacle and he lost his powers and his aura, which gives urge for SM legions to kneel before their primarch and follows their every order
@@Mr.Monacle nuceria was already retconned
@@ukaszbiaek6641 Kind of, it was retconned that his legion were the ones that did it instead of the Emperor, but genuinely, why the Emperor didn’t unleash the War Hounds instead of planning to simply watch the battle unfold is absolutely baffling to me.
Great stuff as always....getting closer to 100k! 🎯🎯🎯
Another Great question but could any of the Traitor Primarch be trusted ?
Magnus?
Whole Magnus, maybe. Incomplete Magnus? No way.
Nope
Mortality could I guess never seemed the living type.
Or even better, WOULD they be trusted by the other Primarchs?
I would love to see Magnus' redemption, however unlikely it is. You know how Blood Ravens have strong implications that they're actually a successors of Thousand Sons? The main reason Magnus refused the last offer at redemption was because it would mean losing all sons of his own. Now if he saw that some of his sons are still around the Imperium, loyal and not suffering the flesh change or straight up being walking walking hourglasses, maybe that could be a kick that he needs to start fighting back against Tzeentch and with the help of the Emperor overcome his influence.
The issue with it still lies another possibility, that being the necessity to find all the pieces of Magnus' soul, and reconstruct him, bar Janus, but not much we can do about that, as I don't recall what happened to that shard
@@yogstrooperdock We don't know what happened to that shard. It may have returned to Magnus, or gone to chill somewhere else, or just slipped into Kaldor Draigo (would explain his OPness).
He also still has that ring, he got off the Emperor's puppet in Fury of Magnus. I feel that might be important somewhere in the future.
@@MajinOthinus betting the last, and makes sense it would reappear in the grey knights at least
Turbo Is maybe only viable one …… Magnus refused ,….. everyone else too far gone in the chaos juice.. Nobody really wants Angron , or Logar ……. Maybe Alpharius too is worth a shot .
I just want Angron to be written competently man, he’s got amazing potential if he’s written well but the memes are really hard for writers to resist it seems
Magnus was kind of the emperor's fault
I think Alpharius is very possible, but i also think theyre not fully loyal, or traitor. Its far more likely that theyve been playing the long game for balance in the end.
My knowledge of the the lore is a touch rusty, but I recall something about Mortarion being a bit narked of with Nurgle. So if the Emperor manages to save Mortarion from Nurgle's clutches, and bring him back into the material world, that might go someway to restoring the relationship between Mortarion and the Emperor.
Yeah, in the Plague War trilogy, Big E possesses with Bobby G when fighting Morty and claims that possibly one day he could one day be saved from that hell, but for now - he has to suffer Nurgle's displeasure.
So, I honestly don't think its off the table.
I would love to see morty come back to the Big-E and kick some choas butt.
I think the only reason the emperor wanted to “save” Magnus was to use him for the golden throne.
Let's be honest, none of the Traitosr would ever be redeemed.
Even the Fulgrim situation would need to be blanketed by Roboute, even if by a miracle he accepted his brother's apology, there's millennia of hatred directed towards the objectively most HATED chaos traitors, the Emperor's Children.
If Clonegrim was to rejoin to Imperium, he would need to do so under some new alias and banner and considering he is a giant man with genius intellect and the prettiest face ever, he would stand out like a pacifist World Eater. But I think I have an idea :
Clonegrim rejoins the Imperium under the banner of one of the lost legions, make some excuse so he always has to wear a helmet and a voice synthetizer. Probably give him some Primaris soldier from traitor geneseed too. It's a HUGE stretch, but it's the only way to achieve the smallest amount of trust.
You know what. That would be great for the memes alone. People would be making pictures of him wearing spectacles with a fake mustache.
I think Magnus is a good candidate to, if not rejoin the Imperium, help out the "good" guys. He's way less dickish than the other daemon primarchs and after he came back and reconquered Prospero, he seems surprisingly...chill...he's basically just sitting there and calling for all the psykers in the Imperium to come there.
It'd be hilarious if the Emperor turned a couple then was like nah I'm good on the others.
Although it may be possible that one primarch may be redeemed, the real question is, how would the Imperium as a whole view such a thing happening?
Depends if they are still tainted of the warp gods if not that itself is one long redemption arc. They would probably would work under custodes and a few high ranking commissars only because of the obvious.
Out of the traitors magnus the red does deserve a second chance for forgiveness he tried warning the imperium of horus falling yes heresy I know but he was cohered into falling
he got it and chose chaos. his legion was lost but he chose their lives over starting over with big E
To answer the question, we must go to a different game franchise. Legacy of Kain. The proposition was, you flip a coin, knowing that if it's heads, time repeats itself, tails, everything ends. The titular character choses heads every time. Why? He hopes that somehow, someday, the coin will land on it's edge.
Brilliant Reference, Brilliant series
Technically logar saying the emporoer was a God turned out to be true in the end I wonder how he would reacted to the eclisarchy
He met the early members of the sect. He hated them with a passion.
@@kelman727 good to know
@@kelman727 "No, is not the same, the worship of the God Emperor has to be at heart, a genuine sentiment of communion and understanding. Not a desperation messaure of self preservation and idoctrination for the masses."
I don't think any of the Primarch's are lost (aside from the ones that are dead). But I believe the Emperor can save them. I mean he's the Emperor. Then you mentioned in another video about shards and what not. There must be the fatherly side of the Emperor may be still there? It would certainly make the Emperor interesting as even if he is an all powerful being he is now a regretful father. That humanises him. Maybe the Emperor relearns something that he lost in all his warmongering, compassion.
Magnus' Shards are stated to all be equal by Malcador, that it's Magnus holding clinging to that false hope. This means that yes, Magnus can be reforged and freed from Tzeentch.
interesting twist about Emperor's sword is that since warp daemons calls Emperor as Anathema, meaning true oblivion, His sword is capable of this.
Perturabo just needs a hug
I think Mortarion will get redemption by breaking the Eldari Goddess free, and also bring the 2 empires into a closer relationship.
I feel that only in the end times could a traitor primarch be redeemed and my money would be on Magnus, as a) the Lord of change would be very interested in the paradigm shifting change the end times would be so my actually allow Magnus to leave b) some form of reversal of the Rubric would guarantee his loyalty, he's the primarch that was on reasonable terms with the Emperor and was basically backed into a corner when he fell.
Konrad Curze and Night Haunter can be made ino two different characters in the future. One a Primarch, One a Daemon. Maybe that Night Haunter aspect of him died when he was beheaded and it is now in the hands of Chaos. Maybe his protected soul within that Eldar style gem keeps his sanity safe and ready to be reborn a Primarch more similar to his loyalist brothers?
Or maybe it is attempted and just doesn't work as the Emperor intended him to fall all along. As that is the only way to create the human psykers needed to survive the Tyranids.
It would make sense in that as the Emperor ascends to godhood in the warp if he can get his sons back who worship other gods it would add to his power and weaken theirs
Hearing this I hope we get more in the way of the clone of Fulgrim. I would like to know how the Emperor would respond to him.
Amazing video. I love seeing the fatherly side of Big E
I want purtarobo and Mortarian and the Fulgrim clone redeemed!!!
Fulgrim is unredeemable, Lorgar is unredeemable, Angron is Unredeemable, Mortarion and Perturabo however, most likely are. Magnus is as well, and possibly Omegon.
He planted a seed within Mortarion, it will be there now in the back of his head nagging away at him. Could he be released from his bonds with Nurgle. As much as he had issues with the Emperor, I feel he knows he has it worse with Nurgle. He is already fighting back against Nurgle and doing his own thing, whatever punishment Nurgke hands out, could be the tipping point. Mortarion betrays Nurgle, frees the Elder Goddess, and begs his father for redemption.
Thyhus is already basically leading the Plague Marines anyway and will only grow in power now Mortarion is in the bad books.
Comment pt.2
I can see Konrad, if being redirected by elder tech via soul stone being more inclined to return. If Vulken’s insanity was cured by his death, why couldn’t Konrads?
Because Conrad was always insane. Vulkan was insane for comoletely different reasons, normally being sane.
@@astormofwrenches5555 Wrong. he wasn't insane from the start, he became insane during his uprising as a child because he had no guidance. If he would have landed on Ultramar for example or Prospero, we would have a completely different Konrad.
Maybe the emperor saw some of the traitor primarchs be forgiven in a vision but he is willing to save all of his sons even the ones who had a powerful motive to betray.
Dang Russ the rabbit hole goes deep! Bloody love it mate
Clearly you are Russ just chilling in our dimension
I figure some aspect of the emporer probably wants them back as their father, and taking them back would both regain their usefulness and deny them to the arch enemy so it also would be strategically useful, but destroying them would the next best thing in that vein. In a tactical sense, having them believe they could come back introduces the doubt in their minds and cause them to hesitate so as not to loose that chance.
Unless you're a father, a person might not understand this.
I have a family member with a son, his eldest, that became an utter dirt-bag. He was once a capable, highly ranked attorney, but not anymore.
His father feels much as the Emperor does, hoping that his son will overcome the fall.
IMHO the only two Primarchs worthy of any salvaging efforts are Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon. The rest of them is either too far gone or, even if redeemed somehow, will simply fall yet again. I don't know why people are putting so much hope in Fulgrim's clone. He's just that - a clone, still representing each and every character trait that had led original Primarch astray. One may argue if Fulgrim would remain loyal without the Blade of Laer as a catalyst of his corruption but if the only thing needed to break one of Emperor's Chosen was some magic trinket, there's no guarantee the story wouldn't repeat itself.
Here's something that I don't think a lot of people don't consider, that the choice the Emperor gave Magnus was a trap, a trick, something to use to determine Magnus's character. Why do I say this? Because in every medium we have experienced, whether it be video games, books, movies, TV, whatever, THAT is the MORAL choice, and what was that choice? Personal redemption and power (a new and powerful legion above all others) but in exchange the lives and indeed the souls of all your sons, your loyal sons. I think that by choosing his sons Magnus showed his character and ironically showed that there would always be that window for him. This is even shown to exist in the Era of the demon "evil" Magnus where even with his full transformation and the loss of his "good" shard, Magnus still looks after his legion and looks to cure them. Magnus then, just as now, puts his legion, his sons, before himself. What do we call that trait? Do we call that the trait of a villain? Would Sauron/Morgoth put the Orcs before themselves? Would Voldemort put his Death Eaters before himself? What do you think?
Fulgrim is the only one i see getting a full scale return because hes the one who has a demon form an original form in the same universe so GW wouldn't have to trade anything
I still want to see Ferrus the Dreadnought Primarch.
Or, you could enslave a traitor Primarch in a Dreadnought. Or the 2nd or 11th. Powerful, and mindslaved to following orders. You can't get grimmer or darker.
No
Comment for algorithm.
(Love your vids bro!)
that scene where magnus is beaten by ____ and accepts Tzeentch's blessing was epic as hell
I think the emporer plays the long game for sure. He's already been around for 40+ thousand years if it takes his sons 20k years to come back to him he dont sweat it
To quote Philemon "There are no ways back. Even the gods do not break that law"
When the Emperor told him to save his brothers, I think we have to consider what Guilleman said of the whole interchange. The Emperor regarded him not as a father reuniting with a son but a craftsman who found a tool he had thought lost for a long time. He was actually saying "collect and retrieve the other tools." Magnus would be the most important to power the astronomican. Lion El'Johnson could be the new Warmaster to retake the dark imperium. Everyone else, missing or ascended to daemonhood, is just a wayward tool.
I know little of the setting and have never played the game or read any books yet.. what I know of the 40K setting I've learned over the past 2 yrs via youtube. How ever, I think the way it should go down is similar to the way "emperors text to speech" I see in it to many families I have had XP with, mine and others I know... As funny as it is I can see the truth of it and how it should be, yes, keep the grim durp stuff but I think it would be a grand outline for how it could go... Keep in mind I'm just a person looking in from the outside...😶🌫
Here's a hypothesis. What if the Emperor purposely let half of the Primarchs become traitors as a weapon against chaos like some kind of strange Trojan Horse strategy. As if all of the Primarchs had a secret part of their souls that that chaos gods couldn't see, and it contained some kind of anti-chaos anathema energy that would kill the chaos gods from the inside out.
I think story wise, one of the traitor primarchs will seek redemption.
It's just too good of a story to pass up for an author and gw I feel like.
How will chaos react?
How will the other primarchs react?
How will the emperor react?
How will the imperium react?
I don't see more than one Turning back though. And also if he will even survive or be killed by chaos or by the imperium.
I like the idea of the Emperor being the 5th Chaos God of Faith (the positive side being hope, loyalty, and belief while the negatives are fanaticism, propaganda and bigotry) , so him being consumed by blind hope is fitting. The other Chaos Gods exemplify the aspects they represent after all.
I see redemption only for Horus' clone.
Maybe Clone Fulgrim too? If nothing else, it makes for a fun AU.
"Saved" un the religious context hours was saved as he saw his errors the moment before he died. Like when people are burned at the stake to save them
I’m surprised that perturabo wasn’t brought up, isn’t he actively trying to reverse his daemon ascension? Seems like the emperor would have a chance with him
Not to mention that in the battle eith Guilliman and Mortariom when the Guilli was possed by the Emps and smashed the ass of the Big Reaper.
Mortariom prayocally becomes crasy and losts himself in that moment no believing in what the situation become.
Redeemed angron is a hilarious concept that i hope comes about
E's reaction to meeting Lorgar again "You were adopted."
If anyone I'd like to see come back and honestly see as the most likely is Mortarion. Dude never outright wanted to join to begin with but was manipulated. Secondly his legion and nurgle all treat him like ass. And he's always miserable and is just like "well this is life now I guess 🤷🏻♂️". I could see him being interested, even slightly, even if it it being impossible to get saved or not
I think we're seeing the Emperor as...well, saying he's a different person would be incorrect, but I think we're seeing a very different side of the Emperor. As the man who had to conquer the galaxy to secure it for humanity or against Chaos, he had to become a ruthless and calculating warlord. He was fighting against aliens and rival planetary conquerors in a hostile galaxy, sure, but the chief enemy of the Great Crusade was Chaos. After Long Night, the Chaos Gods would be stronger than ever before, and they were an enemy that chiefly used weapons far more metaphysical and subtle than bullets and chainswords. A whisper of arcane knowledge. An offering made on a brass altar. A vision in the night that promised a perfect life.
This was an enemy that simple force of arms couldn't eradicate, but it was the best facilitator to bringing everyone within reach to the doctrine of the Imperial Truth or wiping them away if it couldn't take. This was a war of ideas and secrets where the lives and souls of as much as all of humanity was on the line. This was a war that had to be won at all costs, which nothing could be considered above sacrificing for victory. Not his sons. Not himself.
As sad and as brutal as considering his own progeny to be worth using as playing pieces to be used and, if necessary, discarded, the Emperor of the GC era had made himself into a man that was willing to make that play.
I think defeat and death had taught the Emperor not only a lesson in humility, but gave him room to change his priorities. After shifting from the brutal conqueror to the defender of what he had built, and more than ten thousand years of staving off Chaos and overseeing and protecting an Imperium where tens of millions of humble men and women die with praise of Him on their lips every day, his priorities shifted. As much as he had been the warlord, he was now perhaps being the man he had been before, as meaningful as that phrase can be now that he's the God-Emperor. He had to remove traitors beforehand, but now, it was within his power to redeem them, and he would offer his sons that chance if no one else.
tl:dr: It's easy to see Big E evolving as a character between the HH and Godblight.
Some plot twists could be hilarious.
Like Lorgar.
« Ok, dad, you were right, the Chaos Gods are a bunch or c*nts… but I was also kinda right, you’re a God now. So… let’s call it even and let me worship you again ? »
Magnus ? Well he’s been the more hinted for.
Perty ? The guy is all salt and bile…
Morty ? Sounds unlikely too
Angron And Fulgril ? It really sounds like that ship has sailed though ^^
Fulgrim would be the easiest honestly since there's already a non-chaos fulgrim out there somewhere. A clonegrim/Gorilla man team up against demon fulgrim would be excellent, especially if clonegrim, swordsman that he is, gets to wield the emperor's sword. For the other primarchs it would depend.
I don't know if the emperor has anything to offer Angron, Perty, or Lorgar. Angron never wanted the emperor's help while Lorgar has already found what he was looking for in the emperor in chaos instead and perty has grown as a person and doesn't need validation anymore so the emperor doesn't have enything to give to him really.
Morty doesn't like tyrants and could probably be convinced to go back to the emperor after having been a slave to nurgle. Mortarion trying to defeat nurgle as the emperor watches would be a cool parallel to how the emperor met morty. If they got a thematic redo and the emperor got it right that time then I could see it.
Magnus might work if the emperor can fix the rubric and can give magnus the noble shard of his soul. He would need to do that no strings attached. Magnus didn't like the emperor dangling a reward in front of him but leaving his sons behind the last time the emperor tried to win him back and unless the emperor is entirely selfless next time magnus won't go for it.
kurz is dead. Your guess is as good as mine here. Maybe he'll show up in the Legion of the Damned? that would be cool
Interesting, to consider this from the point of view of the Emperor rather than the Primarchs. Very interesting.
If The Emperor wants to save Angron, he's going to have to do it in some extremely smart manner or use brute force to do it... and then somehow figure out how to get rid of the Butchers Nails. Those things are apparently still functioning after 10000 years and were killing Angron before Lorgar forcefully ascended him to daemonhood.
Angron would never accept the help. He resents the Emperor as an Tyrant well before the heresy
@D Goodfellow very much so. I still don't understand why the emperor decided on simply teleporting angron up to his battleship, and then over to the Conqueror even though most of the XII and the Emperor and his Custodes were up there. Angron would still suffer from the Nails but it'd be harder to turn him if those actions had been taken.
The Emperor if anything is practical. He would redeem them. He also might assassinate them personally and create new Primarchs. New Primarchs with the advancements of the Primarus project.
Ture and we don't know the fate of both heads of the Hydra one is KIA and the other we simply do not know. I hope we will get one day confirmation on his fate. As even, Roboute Guillimanwas not convinced that he killed his Brother.
Part of me would say yes, but part of me would say no. The fallen primarchs all express some modicum of regret for falling to the ruinous treachery of Chaos. I certainly would like to see their redemption, but I think they’re too polluted/warped by evil. 🤷♂️
I think the spirit of the emperor possessing Guilliman and setting Nurgle’s garden ablaze was proof of that. He’s done with Chaos and it’s influence. He’s now on spiritual and physical offense. He’s taking the fight directly to the forces of evil, wherever they may be cowering in fear.
That was the coolest part of that bit in the book. Nurgle actually feeling fear. Sort of echoing Neil Patrick Harris putting his hand on the “brain bug” and exclaiming, “IT’S AFRAID!”.
I want at least 2 traitor primarchs be redeemed, my pick would be fulgrim and perturabo
If anything I think we'll get a badass death match between Daemon Fulgrim, and his clone that will be a Loyalist. I also see a route to redemption for Perturabo, Morty, and Magnus.
@@FuriousWojtek I absolutely loved the fulgrim books and in my headcanon I still believe that it's the daemon which took control of fulgrim and trapped his soul and because of his pride he could never admit the truth that he's not fulgrim, hence he pretends to be the original. Fulgrims soul somehow landed in the fabius bile's clone, making the clone perfect
Emperor be praised! A new video!
Forgives them all, cleanses chaos from them, problem?
Fulcrums clone is out there, asphaltarius or omicron may still be loyal, and Magnuts could be brought back with his shards. Marty mc covered in flies could be cleansed by the emperor and pertu ‘the iron cage’ Johnson could be brought back if daddy just gave him a Lego set. All the others can take a warp Tripp with their geller field off. Atleast that’s how I understand it
I always questioned, why didn’t he send Jaghatai to Magnus? It would’ve shown that the emperor wasn’t going to destroy his legion. But Horus you say ? Emperor should’ve sent direct orders instead of having Horus do so.
To be fair, it’s implied that Jaghatai is *mystically* hard to read. Like you couldn’t read his mind if you wanted to. His gift is to be unknowable according to the Emperor himself, he was always a wild card so asking him to do anything specific is a risk.
Maybe he understands, or has begun to understand, how powerful he has become and that his power is continuing to grow... Maybe he feels that if he can cause a fault in a demon Primarch's belief in their Chaos God he can purge or weaken enough corruption that he can possibly redeem some of his sons...
Each of the traitor primarch's quirks perfectly fits each of the chaos realm's very basic nature: Fulgrim's obsession to pleasure, Magnus' thirst for knowledge, Angron's emphatic uncontrollable rage, and Mortarian's necromantic hardiness. Too perfect to be a random chance of genetic engineering. Why would the Emperor engineer inherent weaknesses in his primarchs if he didn't intend them to fall to the ruinous powers eventually. He planned the whole thing. He purposely intended them to fall in order to serve as Trojan horses and conquer the chaos realms eventually. My theory is that he still maintains a one-way telephatic link with all of his fallen sons to gather more information from the chaos realms and devise ways how to invade it.
A loyal Mortarion would be amazing. his knowledge gained from Nurgle could possibly heal Big E.
Lorgar would be like: I told you so…
Another question is, how are the other „dead” primarchs going to return.
Does the Emperor know how much time has even passed since the end of the heresy? Perhaps he does not know just how long he has had do endure?
are there books of when eperor meets the primarchs? I KNOW OF LIONEL JOHNSON MORTARIAN THE NAILS HORUS THERE OTHER PRIMARCH BOOKS MEETING EMPERE FIRST TIME
I have a feeling... GW probably can't make this all have a happy ending, but if they backslide on this at the end of it, they're going to fuck up even more. So, I suspect that while some of the traitors may not redeemed, they may still abandon the Chaos Gods to become their own men; Renegade lords with their own systems, sometimes allying with the Imperium at large, other times in conflict with it.
How can you redeem magnus if he did nothing wrong?
The thing is, we keep thinking of saving the Primarchs' bodies. This is no possible they are the Warp gods now. and as Masterful as you want to say they are, they are only flesh and repeatable. What the Emperor is after and we should be as well, are their souls. If I understand it, the soul is are discarded and replaced when turned to Daemon Princes. This is also why Fabius Bile could only manage one perfect clone of Fulgrim because he needed to get the soul and get it right. So the Emperor is more interested in saving their souls, and he could possibly manage to restore them to new bodies... Fabulous bowel did manage to perfect physical bodies of the primarchs he cloned.
TTS Is Becoming Cannon? Nice
There can be no redemption because there can be no forgiveness. Death to the traitor! To suggest otherwise is heresy. May HE have mercy on your soul.
You have been warmed
@Wolf Lord Rho
Ill be very happy to get you see that 100k plaque my friend...
Cheers!
Edit: Also didn't the Big E tell Magnus a second time he could be redeemed. Something along the lines of for now you must go back to your master, but someday you possibly could be redeemed?
Or am I just confusing that with the chat during the siege of Terra?
So… Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim I would consider non starters. Horus and Konrad Curze are dead, Perturabo is the epitome of stubborn and would not have been prone to ever changing his mind even before his betrayal, Lorgar worships Chaos so that is out… so the only real options would be Magnus or Alpharius (if applicable as it’s unknown where Alpharius allegiance even resides).
The only one with a chance lost his head.....Mortarion is sick of being chaos but he hates the Imperium maybe he could go neutral.
Emperor to Lorgar.... "well I hate to say it, but you were right. And your plans made me the God I never wanted to be. But you saved humanity..... so... sorry."
It just makes me sad that if I was in 40k, I’d probably be on a Hive World instead of a “normal space marine.” I’d have so much fun if I was an Exodite Eldar.
Well.
In the forst oportunity the Big E fucked with Nurgle and his Garden.
I ask few things.
-How Hard would be to the Emperor do this?
-How many he would give redemption?
-What he wil achieve with that?
-And whats next?
All speculation about redemption for the traitor primes, i wonder What the 2 missing/unknown primes must have done? Or could what happened to them, be the reason why redemption is on the table?
While I think it's possible to redeem them all, I think only Magnus and Mortarion that could work without a lot of ass pulls as they both were more forced and tricked into falling to their Chaos God's. Fulgrim far as I'm concerned didn't turn traitor, as he was being manipulated and taken over by the Laerblade, so it's possible for Clonegrim to get the soul from the Blade and be reborn. I also think Curze could be helped and redeemed if he is infact alive and out there somewhere.
Lorgar is to loyal to Chaos as they are everything he has ever believed in, Perturabo would never allow himself to return as he would have to first admit he was wrong and Angron...he's to far gone and should be given the mercy he deserves.