I had the pleasure of meeting this young man in Arlington, Oregon, had a wonderful conversation with him, he showed me some of his blades and finished our meeting with a terrific prayer.it was an honor to meet such a nice person,God Bless you and thank you Mr.Carter 🙏
Mad respect, Mr. Carter! I haven't seen the Forged in Fire episode (yet), but I can appreciate the choices you made. I think it's wonderful that you submitted knives that represent and pay respect to the traditions inherited from your teachers. To everyone that has a problem with this video: haters gonna hate. He acknowledges that there are advantages and disadvantages to each the Western and Japanese traditions. Of course he'll talk more about the advantages of his own tradition-he does it his way because he believes in it. Would you buy a knife from someone that didn't believe in their own methods?
I am a bladesmith myself (only part-time, though). I am also friends with many of the smiths from Forged in Fire. Finally, I am a scientist. The testing did have bias toward certain characteristics, and that is just the way these things work. Murray, as you know from your martial arts experience, you can learn more about a person by watching them handle one defeat than by watching 10 victories. You seem gracious, and your points are generally valid (I think). Don't want to get into a point-by-point. I want to say that it appears to me that you are a great craftsman, and more importantly, a good person. Peace be with you.
Hey Murray, Great synopsis. I enjoyed watching you on the show last night and thought you were fortunate to be mixed in with a great group of competitors. I appreciate your humility and openness to continued learning. Good stuff.
I just watched the episode and I have to say the competition was tough in this one but your knife making skills are above and beyond! Your kris was amazing considering you never made one before and how you accepted loss and your wanting to learn more is the best. Someday i would want to work with you so I too may become so great in bladesmithing
I wish Murray would have won. I liked his blade better and the fact that it was better balanced and wasn’t twisted from the start and had a bit better fit and finish in the handle should have made up the difference in that little bend. But that said, Murray was a totally classy dude throughout the episode. He had some very stiff competition too. A lot of these smiths aren’t even close to his capabilities or experience, but in this episode, all three were legit. In my book, Murray is and will always be... The Man
Murray,I was excited to see you on the show! I remember visiting your shop when it was in Vernonia, I was very impressed with your skill, and blessed to have you spend a few hours with me. I was pulling for you 100%, and was disappointed when you did not win.
I DVR'd all FIF episodes. I was thrilled to see you in the show. You did great Murray. What I actually found interesting in the show was Doug Marcaida saying after he sliced the meat, your blade tend move while making a big slice. I found that really interesting. I thought it was because it had more flex and it was sharper. One thing they did not consider was, Kris sword is used in combat. So the stationary bamboo test did not make much sense . You want a sword that penetrates suspended bamboo ( like in combat ) .
I did not watch the show but I have purchased your book and read it lots of times. I can understand it might have been a bit heart breaking to lose but your explanations on the difference between Japanese and western style blades was very informative and answered alot of questions I had pondered on. Thanks for the book and thanks for this video both are very informative.
I watched the show and was glad to see you gives us your fans an explaination of how the decision was made best of all what u learned .. Joe 1 big FAN !
-- A bit off topic -- I think it would be a very interesting series to see Murray create his take on historical knives from around the world, even if it was just for a video and not a production model. I think it would be cool to see him examine knives like the Finnish Puukko, Sami Leuku, American Kephart, American Nessmuk, French/English trade knives, etc and get his thoughts on their design and use. It would also be cool to see him then create a modern replica blending his styles and techniques with the historical design. Just an idea!
Well, sounds like you learned how to win that particular competition. If I want an elegant, top performance knife for everyday use, Carter can't be beat. If I want a sharpened pry bar, I guess a Busse is warranted. Regardless of the outcome, I rooted for you the whole time. Thanks for the insight into your decision process.
They were told to make functional weapons. You do NOT want your weapon to bend and stay bent on the battlefield. It is pretty simple to understand. They weren't making a "Kris for everyday use."
@@Krytern yep, just another person saying "what I like is the real deal, everyone else likes sharpened prybars". Carter obviously didn't heat treat his blade correctly. He went for toughness, not strength. His fault. And it looks like he still doesn't realize it.
@@Krytern Get over yourself, put it on your blog boyo. Keep us posted with your prized insight on faults in people. Out of the billion people on UA-cam your opinion is relevant.
Hello Murray this might come too late but I still wanted to share this with you, it is really nice to learn from you hearing those thoughts, I was suprised to see in the show that you oil quenched your blade. But I understand that you did not want to risk having it break during the quenching or ending up with a brittle blade. There is a reason that most Katana's don't make it past the quenching. The flexing occurred with blades out of your comfort zone. It will only happen to a kitchen knife with abuse or crushing garlic with a thin Japanese blade. Stay proud of your work, your experience is in laminated steel which put you at an disadvantage in this competetion. (Your style is more complex, with their materials and those time constraints I am suprised that everythng went this smoothly). I hope I can take a look at one of your blades sometime. stay safe Philipp
Murray, So impressed and appreciate your humility. I wish I could learn from you. See your inbox; Eager apprentice candidate here ready to soak it up. You will not find a more studious workhorse. True story.
Just watched the episode. You and the older fella outdid yourselves in the first challenge of making a knife. You both did some amazingly clean pieces in the time allotted. for the final sword, im not sure where the bend occurred, but it seemed like the final blow hit the side of the blade, not the edge. The judges, as you already know, are not familiar with the techniques you practice in japanese knife making. Even the one judge stated that he was weary of the "soft steel core". All-in-all, making a san-mai style sword is quite the feat. It is not common practice and is very risky at those lengths. But you definitely more than exceeded my expectations at showing you capabilities throughout the show. Its a bit of a flip of the coin for the challenges they throw at you especially if its not what you make on a daily basis. But you can tell the true experts when they are working. Great job, even more of a fan now.
Hi, recently watched some episodes and I'd love to get one particular answer from someone who took part in contest. How the whole heat treat during the in-studio part of FiF really looked like? Nobody mentions anything about tempering the blade and it really looked like most of makers overheated the steel (Too much light in room?) Really, nobody mentions anything apart quenching. Overall cool show, but obviously made to appeal for non-bladesmiths. Your design was really nice by the way, found Your channel because of show and now I subbed and I'm catching up :)
I'm glad to see you cleared up some stuff in this reflection! You brought a level of professionalism and mastery to the program that far exceeded everyone there. I think if you had known how the blade would have been tested you would have easily won! And you could always remake the sword and put it through the tests again just to prove to yourself that the performance of your style. I hated to see you lose but that's how competitions go. People make mistakes in competitions and I believe your everyday cutlery far out-performs the rest!
Hi, i like your videos, really entertaining and full of details and information. i do have one question though, do you make Japanese Katanas? if so what is the cost of them, i am interested. thank you :)
I think its bunk you lost, but I still know your background and you are both a master smith of Japanese and American blades, and it speaks volumes when top chiefs have your knives some even from tv. We all know who is a much better smith overall, Carter Sensei.
I like the show, but I must admit to being taken aback when Doug Marcaida "corrected" Murray's observation that the Kris appears to be a thrusting weapon (which it is). Being from the Philippines, so close to Java, I would think that Doug would have a better knowledge of the Kris and its intended use. All the features of the weapon, like the angle of the grip, tell you that it is a thrusting weapon. The curves allow it to penetrate with ordinary pressure while making a much larger wound. Krises are mainly ceremonial, but it is telling that in executions (the only well-documented functional use of the Kris) they always use it to thrust, not to slash or chop. Doug shouldn't be so hasty in correcting people, and if he's going to co-host an episode focusing on that specific blade, it wouldn't hurt him to do some research beforehand.
FDT GURU. actually in the Philippines it's called a kalis sword. and the purpose of the waves in the blade is to make it slash without getting stuck (if this actually works in practice I'm not sure). a staight sword or blade was thought to easily get stuck in bone. while smaller versions of the keris blade used in other parts of Asia would make sense as a stabbing weapon due to the small size and the desire to get the largest wound by implementing the wave feature of the blade, a large sword used for stabbing wouldn't make as much sense, swords typically are wide enough and long enough that the addition of waves isn't necessary to make large wounds. and yes while the handle is build to allow comfortable stabbing motion, it also allows for comfortable slashing as well, and many tools in the Philippines have similar handle shapes. (i saw quite a few while in bacolod).
www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Kris Use Functionally, the kris is not a slashing weapon like a bowie knife or other fighting knife, but rather a stabbing instrument. If a kris fighter had stealth on his side, the kris was lethal. There are many stories of a kris being made especially for killing a specific person or ethnic group of people. The wound made by a kris was terrible; the edge of the blade "danced" in the wound, and left tatters of dead flesh, which would begin to rot. A kris has a cranked hilt, which serves as support for a stabbing strike. At the same time, it allows the strength of the wrist to be added to the pressure on the blade while slashing and cutting. Kris has no special protection for the hand, except for the broadness of the blade at the hilt, which offers some protection. In rare cases, a kris has its blade made to rotate around an axis fixed in the hilt, so that the blade could automatically turn to slip past the ribs. This innovation did not function well and adversely affected the durability of the weapon.
Murry, I'm curious about the blades that are made and then surrendered when a competitor is cut from each round. Were you able to take your sword home?
I didn't watch the "Forged in Fire"... I don't have any 'Cable or Satellite TV services' I cut it out of my life years ago, for the better. It was interesting to see your reflection video none the less.
Every aspect of that competition was designed to take you guys out of your comfort zones. Time constraints, scrap materials, unfamiliar equipment and so on. There will always be variables that are up for debate with competitions like that. The judge's panel, well, in the end, it's just a panel of personal opinions. Just like top chef or any similar program.....Any given Sunday as they say. I was impressed with your performance as much as any YT video you put out. No harm no foul Murray. Keep it up. We love it!
Murray has made 7 knives for me over the last 25 years. I own bought 2 FS1’s, one for my son and one for me. I have collected dozens and dozens of ABS master smith knives and Murray’s knives are simply beyond compare in terms of function, fit and finish, and beauty. (In my opinion, of course.) I’m an old Marine who still hunts and fishes and I use knives-I don’t just put them in a safe-and I have never had any knife that will skin a deer so effortlessly. 👍🏼🫡❤️
I watched the show in its entirety and I am baffled by the result. Through the prior tests, but especially on the bamboo chop, your kris clearly cut better. How you have a knife making competition where the knife that cuts better does not win is beyond my amateur understanding, bend or not. All credit and respect to Mr. Vitale, but I will continue to buy Carter Cutlery knives, thank you very much.
***** It is very common for durability to have severe consequences. For example in the BladeSports competitions and even in the MS tests for the ABS, you can't have a blade chip during the cutting. If you make a blade that cuts through the 2x4 very well, stays very sharp but chips - well you fail. However you know this going in so you design accordingly. If you don't know, well it is a little bit more difficult. Just think about the knives you have and picking one for a competition and I don't tell you the events. It is pretty easy to pick a very good knife that does horribly if the knife doesn't match the events well. But of course this is about entertainment mainly.
Knives on the show are supposed to be functional WEAPONS.The sword he made is supposed to be a functional WEAPONS. When on the battlefield your sword slices through someone and gets to bone, or hits armour/shield, you do NOT want it to bend. No matter what country it is from. This is very simple to understand there is more to a bladed weapon then "durrr it cuts well!".
I think that Mr. Carter contributes far more to the knife making community than Forged in Fire. I also think his response to his surprising loss was with class.
I was looking at the Forged in Fire topic on Bladeforums, and I saw a very interesting point. The people who really don't know too much about knives can be easily misled by this show. Someone in the forum itself was questioning why they let a "college professor" JD Smith into the show! JD SMITH! I think that if someone gets disqualified in the show, people who don't really understand knives dismiss the maker as inferior. "oh it bent, that means his work sucks". All of the people who watched Forged in Fire will not see this video explaining how and why the sword bent rather than flexed. Hopefully this show promoted Mr. Carter's knives instead of damaging his reputation!
twinmill97 I surprised that a maker as well established as Carter would have involved himself in this stupid history channel dramatization. The internet actually facilitates dialogue about knives between producers and users instead of TV's monologue presentation.
Swords are built for combat. The knives forged on the show are supposed to be functional WEAPONS. When it slides through someone and hits bone you do not want it to bend and stay bent. Simple.
Rougemont_Forge ,his arrogance destroyed his rep . Sorry but I seen alot of boastful smiths get demolished . There ego was a prime factor in them not winning . He is like Hillary Clinton complaining why she didn't win. Sad thing is you know it.
Oh by the way , did you see the episode of the claymore sword? That sword bent . He lost because his sword wasnt a good as his competition. Why can't liberal fascist progressive socialist luciferian leftest except results . Cry me a river
maltafire360 You could go to someone like Ric Furrer to learn how to make his emulation of Wootz crucible steel which is "real" damascus steel, not a folded pattern weld.
Murray, just curious but do they tell you guys what kind of tests they will be running in the blade? Because in all fairness to you, if they asked you to make a sword but don't tell you if it's going to be a battery of piercing tests vs chopping tests, then they put you in the position of bringing a knife to a gun fight... Either way, it was a tough break Murray. I was rootin for you! Someday I'd like to be able to afford one of your knives and take it in the bush as my beloved main carry. Btw- you looked bad ass on the show man! You just had a kick ass swagger about you, similar to a martial arts grand master! The other older blade smith was a riot too! He seemed like a really nice guy! Too bad he got cut in the second round. I would have liked to see the two of you compete together on the kris swords.
***** Murray had know idea what the tests were going to be. He didn't even know what equipment was going to be available for use! That knife he forge welded was the first time he has ever used a gas forge.
Wow! So essentially there is an element of luck involved due to the fact that you ultimately have to guess as to what the intended purpose of the knife to be tested will be.... Which can result in you bringing a Ferrari to an off road competition as Murray stated.
CarterCutlery How does that compare to the pine charcoal (I think) forge that Murray uses? I assume he prefers the pine charcoal, but is there any particular reason why? I've been facinated with knife making for a long time and enjoy learning these little details from a true expert.
Technically it isn't designated a spring steel, but is able to harden to an extent when water quenched where it can become more "springy" than the typical mild steel (gokunantetsu) found on Japanese san mai billets.
I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. Like you said, you were concerned about not having time for a water-quench if the straightness was affected. Anything on television will be dumbed-down.
Just saw this episode and thought Murray's blade was very good and actually thought he won. However, I thought the 22,000 knives was a bit exaggerated, but since I'm no blade master, that may be true. I don't know. I found on his website that he's now made over 25,000 knives. www.cartercutlery.com/our-story/meet-murray-carter/ so from this, he went to Japan at 18 and met a Bladesmith so let's assume he started making knives at 18. I don't know how old he is, but for calculations, let's just ballpark him at 48, although he's probably younger. So between 18 and 48, 30 years, he'd have to make 833 knives a year to get to 25,000. That's 2.25 knives per day, every day. We know that the 6 days he was on FIF, he only made 2, so he had to make up the other 11 knives on another day. Is that even possible? Somebody help me make sense of these numbers.
Kenichi shiraki for example used to pump out 200 forged knives a day and they were of top quality and forged from hitachi one. Murray is definitely being real
Yes it is possible and I would just point out your number is an average of two knives a day and what that means realistically. Because I'm sure when you imagine it it seems like it'd take a whole day to turn a steel bar into a final pristine sharp knife ready to be put in a box, by the time you start your second steel bar it's probably dark out. In reality what he more likely does is tackle each step in batches. What that means is he can spend one whole day doing nothing but forging, prepping the bars, have a batch of billets ready to be put into forge, pound into shape, stick it in ash or whatever to anneal it, then grab a second bar put in forge, pound into shape, stick it in ash. He could fathomable do 100 of these in a day without having to move from the same spot, each takes 10 minutes? Then on next day it's the next step, then spend another whole day doing nothing but grinding and sharpening. So he could get 100 knives done in one batch after two months or whatever and that would average down to 2 knives a day.
I think the problem with modern Western blade enthusiasts is that they expect a cutting tool to be able to be used as a crowbar and a war club. Only in Western knife enthusiasts is this the case. Most craftsmen and professional blade users understands that a chisel is meant to cut well but not pry, a razor blade is meant to cut well but not pry and a scalpel is meant to cut well but not pry. When you start tilting towards the pry-bar end of the spectrum the cut well end starts fading. There is no perfect blade. There are blades that are perfect for certain tasks. Forged In Fire is leading people to think that any knife worth a damn should be able to shave right after cutting a piece of bone cleanly in two. Not true. It’s like screwdrivers versus chisels versus pry bars: the uneducated expect them to be interchangeable. Right tool for right job. Use a club to beat people up, a sword to cut flesh and a rifle to penetrate clothing and armor. Forged In Fire is a cooking competition with steel.
blcouch to become a journeyman smith in the ABS your knife has to chop through 2 2x4’s, then chop a 1” suspended rope, after that you have to be able to shave arm hair. After all that you put your knife in a vise and bend it 90 degrees to see if it breaks. If it doesn’t break then you become a journeyman smith. So are you saying ABS requirements are too high also?
I doubt the judges didn't understand Japanese forgery. The judges seem to have a large vocabulary of experience in different techniques. It is usually the contestants that are limited to doing it a certain way.
Heki Kahni sounds to me like he's making excuses for his failures. The judges on that show are master knife makers and I'm sure they are just as educated in Japanese knife making as he is. This man let his ego take over and when he lost then he couldn't handle it so his ego made him make a video blaming the judges instead of himself. I'm not a knife maker but I've seen a lot of people's ego get the best of them. He may be an excellent knife maker but he needs to learn how to except that he's not perfect and he will make mistakes, it's part of the learning process and you are never too old or too good to learn something new.
They might have trouble getting volunteer smiths in the future because you have a far better chance of coming off as being incompetent instead of being the hero if you screwup, don't win the episode or have your blade catastrophically fail during one of the more ridiculous tests. I bet people are not lining up to give their business to the black guy who was disqualified right away because he didn't put in the minimum number of ingredients into his billet.
verry intresting, thanks for the explination. i have been thinking for a long time about a san mai blade with a medium carbon cladding and a high carbon core. the fact that mild steel clad san mai knives can take a bend i have always thought is a disadvantage. in the field, i would not want my knife to bend even if it didnt break. it might make it unusable esp if i didtt have the abilty to straighten it in the field. a springy knife would probably not break from the same stresses that would put a bend in a mild steel clad san mai knife. just getting into bladesmithing so i have verry little experience and knoladge however, its nice to know someone is doing this already.
I think it was fair-ish. Murray was praised for his craftsmanship but at certain point the judges seemed smirking out of ignrance or uninformed of what he was doing. Also, while his competitor did indeed forge a sword that stood up the tests better than Murray's did, he had also forged said sword before, while Murray hadn't had experience with it. Bummer he didn't win.
Mr. Carter is a master of blades and makes exquisite quality blades. That said, this vlog seems kind-of-like an excuse for his performance. Honestly, he was invited on the show, so he deserved to be in the company that he kept. The "win" is being on the show, and being chosen as best knife for that shot, that blade, that test, that day, nothing more. He was not asked to bring a ferrari to a knife fight, so i think he should have just taken the TV show as it was, not try to give us an excuse.
Right? On the show they are specifically told to create a 'functional weapon'. Even the knives in the first two rounds are supposed to be functional WEAPONS, not for every day use. On the battlefield having a weapon that bends and stays bent the moment it hits bone or armour/shield is a bad weapon to have. Grab any, proper Japanese WEAPON that he loves so much and it won't bend like that. This guy is seriously full of himself.... Of course he is the one who took a 'farrari'.
I've seen that episode and you had the best looking and in my opinion, the BEST blades in the whole competition!! I've studied Japanese blades for a long time, and i understood why you crafted them the way you did... its too bad the judges were looking for something different, and didn't understand why the blade bent, instead of breaking. (pretty obvious if you ask me haha) and just on another note, I've used longer blades that are "springy" and compared to ones that bend and don't spring back.. the springy ones wear me out very quickly, (from all the added turbulence) and the ones that would bend, seem to only to bend when my form and technique starts to get sloppy! keep up the great work Murray, i love your blades!!
On the battlefield, Japanese or European blade, you do not want it to bend and stay bent the moment you hit bone or armour/shield. You also don't want it to snap when this happens and a well made European weapon will not snap, just like a well made Japanese weapon won't bend. It was his fault not the judges 'wanting something different'.
Krytern UK - "just like a well made Japanese weapon won't bend"... Not sure where you came up with that but historically as sell as modernly Japanese swords and cutlery were and are made to be tough, but not resilient. This is what happens when you have a soft(er) iron jacket on a core of hardened steel (when making a san mai construction) and clay the entire spine and most of the sides on the blade in order to keep the main body of the sword soft during the quench, which is also what creates the hamon. The geometry and heat treating methods between Japanese and European swords were different, as most European swords were heat treated and ground to a geometry that would lend them to be more resilient and spring back to true after bending. Katana are very thick, but are still soft on the spine and sides of the blade which will allow the blade (which the hardened core/edge) to bend as opposed to break when it received a lot of impact, which could then be bent back afterwards. A bent sword is better than a broken sword, and the Japanese' layered iron/steel construction and differential heat treat are both designed to make tough (different that resilient) blade while also being able to take and retain a keen edge.
Japanese make mono steel knives and have done so for a very long time. You are often charged even more for a honyaki kitchen knife from many makers and they are sold as their top of the range knives by many smiths. Also saying laminated blades will never break (catastrophically fail) and could always be bent back seems to go against everything we are taught about materials. If the deformation remains in the elastic region it should return to it's original shape but once you're into inelastic deformation this isn't true. Also every material fails at some point.
I do love the show, and was absolutely THRILLED to see Murray compete! However, I have a bit of an issue with how they test the blades on the program. The testing of the blades is not truly scientific; there is too much room for human error. For example, when Doug cut through the slab of meat in this week's episode and mentioned Murray's blade had a bit of drag, as Murray mentioned on the show, that was more likely due to a human error rather than a fault in the blade. I've seen both David and J attempt to cut certain items with the different blades and succeeded with one yet failed with the other, yet when the footage was slowed down it was obvious that they didn't necessarily swing the failing weapon true with every stroke. Having a man test the blade leaves a lot of room for unforeseen variables, variables that could be the difference in $10,000. Maybe its just me but if I were to take two weeks out of my busy life competing and putting my reputation on the line, I would want my blade tested as fairly possible. Yes, the blades are built to be wielded by a human, but if you are going to test the performance of multiple blades head to head in a controlled environment you have to have a constant in the experiment, and a human simply can't provide that constant. Given that some of the performance tests are bit faulty (IMO) and fact that the contestants are forging a weapon without knowing exactly how it will be used or tested, it nearly makes it a crap shoot to win. If the show is to continue, which I REALLY hope it does, I wish they could truly compare the weapons' performances capabilities with a more even and fair assessment. I do realize that at the end of the day it is just a TV show, but that's just my humble opinion. Heck for all I know the show may be boring if they go all MythBusters with the testing. Just my $.02. Don't scream at me if you disagree.
absuperman I noticed the flaw in Doug's swing in slo-mo. I felt he should have swing again. I'm positive Doug felt it and probly let his pride stop him from admitting it.
"I lost because I made a Japanese blade but it was tested on a western style test." Because the bamboo cutting he admitted was his failure, is just an unheard of thing in Japan. They don't even know what bamboo is right? C'mon man. You make beautiful knives. I'm not even going to try and take that away from you. You are an excellent craftsman. Just stop making excuses. You sound desperate.
I just watched the show for the first time on History Channel and believe that the judges don't understand what a Kris is designed to accomplish, which is stabbing or thrusting. If you look at a traditional Kris' tang design, it isn't designed to hold up to chopping. The little stick tang on my Morro Kris and it's dinky handle won't hold up to much chopping. I feel that the judges are the ones that don't know what they are talking about.
I can already tell you, if it bends easily it lacks strength and apex stability at extreme keenness. Resistance to fracture (toughness) is good to have, but a STRONG blade will resist fracture AND bending, as well as support extremely keen edges better.
The Ace - If the entire blade was that soft I would agree, but there is more than enough of the hardened core steel behind the edge apex on properly treated laminated blades to support it. The laminated sides aren't needed for toughness with modern steels when it comes to keep blades from breaking, even when they're fully tempered martensite from edge to spine, but it really helps when you want the edge to be very hard, much harder than you would want the rest of the blade to be in a mono-steel if it's not for the most part strictly for kitchen/food prep type use. The reason for the use of this technique now is exactly for the edge attributes you were were describing, which allows the edge to remain much harder that the body in order to promote the ability for it to take, support, and keep a very fine and keen edge. The hardened steel core in the blade is able to bend because its low carbon sides are bonded (welded) to the core and they support it by acting as one piece, keeping it from fracturing much sooner when stressed than it would without the soft(er) outer layers, especially at the high hardness of the core steel. The judges on FIF, at least on Murray's episode, including ABS MS James Neilson didn't seem to be well versed in soft jacket laminated (San Mai) steels and how they're treated, or in Japanese bladesmithing techniques, as also seen by their reaction to Murray's ability to water-quench his first san mai blade on the set on the show. The ABS focuses on using and teaching western bladesmithing techniques, (which are great!), whereas san mai is very much a Japanese technique, and it creates different characteristics than the usual mono-steel blades made in the west, or even pattern welded steel blades often seen in the ABS blades which are now days mostly composed of two very similar steels that will harden to the same degree, and so it will act very similarly to a mono-steel blade. I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but they both can make excellent blades, especially at the edge apex, which is the primary focus of much of Japanese cutlery and is much of the reason behind their use of low carbon steels laminated to the core steels.
@@lsubslimed irrelevant. The end result of the blade lacked strength. He needed a grade 8 bolt, and submitted a grade 5 bolt instead. Toughness doesn't make up for lack of strength. It's a weapon and it shouldn't bend easily. You don't need to know shit about Japanese bladesmithing techniques to know that.
The Ace - I wasn't referring to Murray's blade or the competition in particular, I was referring to your comment about it the edge lacking any strength to support the edge apex, which is the exact area the strength in a san mai blade is meant to be. It seemed you though that, because the body of the sword could bend, that it implied the cutting edge had the same attributes as the rest of the body, but if you read my last comment you'll see why that isn't necessarily the case. Purpose of san mai= softer (tough) body, hard (strong) edge, which is the same principal of differentially hardened blades. That's all I was trying to clear up. Take care
He should be a judge on the show and not a contestant. He maybe got more experience in bladesmith more than any other judge. He's an awesome teacher and he help me (indirectly) on my sharpening skills more than anyone. I think the show is some part stupid. The next step is to ask Bob Kramer to be a contestant. It make no sense.
I've learned alot from your videos and knowledge. I'm using a CPM-M4 Benchmade Contego now and love it compared to 154CM. Now my interest is sparked in your blades and other laminate/san mai steel!
Sounds like part of the difficulty in giving Forged In Fire credibility is the lack of transparency in what you're getting into. It seems really hard to try to have an ultimate test since there are so many applications and decisions based on the use and desired features, that you can't just match any kind of blade against each other and test them in a certain way without them being comparable in purpose. Like you wouldn't match claymore and katana against each other, it just doesn't make too much sense. If you're trying to draw conclusions from the bladesmith's skill and put them in order like that, it's somewhat apples to oranges and doing a disservice to all if it's reviewed too one-dimensionally. Essentially it sounds like a nightmare job, making design choices blindly trying to guess what the customer is using it for. Turns out when you guess wrong for what you're judged for, it's not your skill that is reviewed but your luck. If you get to know the test before hand, you can actually make educated decisions and perfect your choices towards that. Also pretty fascinating that a lot of the decisions also just come down to what you have at hand in the timeframe given. Cool that the experience still managed to teach something useful. To me it seems like better than the shows is when the professionals explain their choices, what they did and why.
Yelp review on this bozo - Welcome to bizarre insanity. The founder of this place made a book about himself where he says his greatest influences are Conan the Barbarian and Jesus Christ. He walks around open carrying a .45 on premises, and rants and raves about conspiratorial political ideas in front of staff and customers. With only a few minute conversation you will find that he is delusional about what his company actually is, which is very specialized knives that are massively over priced. Terrible. Just terrible.
+Carter Cutlery IIIIIIIIINNNNNNNN OTHER WORDS! Like usual Mr. Murray Carter Quite LITERALLY knows more about knives and steel than the people judging his work. Fucking typical. You should take these fools on your yearly trip to Japan, show them what bladesmithing really looks like.
I can see how your style of bladesmithing worked against you in a competition like Forged In Fire. I don't doubt that your blades are awesome. One thing I have learned from watching that show is that if you want to win never ever laminate steel. It takes up too much time and often the testing they do will cause it to fail. The guys that win are not the 100 layers Damascus guys - ever. Their blades look cool and are probably good in other ways but not good for the competition.
I think Doug had an issue with you Murray, he was overly critical on his observations and when he didn’t put his hands together in that gesture that he does when you handed in your blade it confirmed everything that I sensed beforehand.
Ah Murray, i'm sorry you lost! You know Westerners don't care about edge geometry or anything that matters! They just want a steel club to smash trees down. i would love to watch the episode, I hear its a decent show. The example of a Ferrari being brought do an off road race is a perfect example haha.
+Max Savino I care about edge, which when it comes to wepons like the tanto and katana, you have the japanese sword that is differntaly heat treated, and has the curvature of the blade which aids in the slicing, it might not be the biggest sword out there, but the style of heat treating, lamination, and the way they are sharpened makes them that much better for cutting and slicing, they westerners dont go over and over with finer and finer stones for extended periods of time to sharpen, like the japanese do, same with the sushi knives like the yangi ba, or the eel knife it has such a fine edge it can make the cuts that long and thin, try that with a typical western knife and it will come up short 8 out of 10 times. by the way carter sensei how come there have been no new videos for 4 months.
Way better than the rest? On the show they are specifically told to create a 'functional weapon'. Even the knives in the first two rounds are supposed to be functional WEAPONS, not for every day use. On the battlefield having a weapon that bends and stays bent the moment it hits bone or armour/shield is a bad weapon to have. Grab any, proper Japanese WEAPON that he loves so much and it won't bend like that. This guy is seriously full of himself.... Of course he is the one who took a 'farrari'.
I had the pleasure of meeting this young man in Arlington, Oregon, had a wonderful conversation with him, he showed me some of his blades and finished our meeting with a terrific prayer.it was an honor to meet such a nice person,God Bless you and thank you Mr.Carter 🙏
@@borragoHow old are you to ask such a weird question? Btw, I’m 60 so to me, Murray IS a young man. (I figured you’d want to know) 🤷🏻🤨
Thank You for all the Teachings You send out .
Mad respect, Mr. Carter! I haven't seen the Forged in Fire episode (yet), but I can appreciate the choices you made. I think it's wonderful that you submitted knives that represent and pay respect to the traditions inherited from your teachers.
To everyone that has a problem with this video: haters gonna hate. He acknowledges that there are advantages and disadvantages to each the Western and Japanese traditions. Of course he'll talk more about the advantages of his own tradition-he does it his way because he believes in it. Would you buy a knife from someone that didn't believe in their own methods?
I am a bladesmith myself (only part-time, though). I am also friends with many of the smiths from Forged in Fire. Finally, I am a scientist. The testing did have bias toward certain characteristics, and that is just the way these things work. Murray, as you know from your martial arts experience, you can learn more about a person by watching them handle one defeat than by watching 10 victories. You seem gracious, and your points are generally valid (I think). Don't want to get into a point-by-point. I want to say that it appears to me that you are a great craftsman, and more importantly, a good person. Peace be with you.
Hey Murray,
Great synopsis. I enjoyed watching you on the show last night and thought you were fortunate to be mixed in with a great group of competitors. I appreciate your humility and openness to continued learning. Good stuff.
I saw that show and was rooting for you.
I just watched the episode and I have to say the competition was tough in this one but your knife making skills are above and beyond! Your kris was amazing considering you never made one before and how you accepted loss and your wanting to learn more is the best. Someday i would want to work with you so I too may become so great in bladesmithing
I wish Murray would have won. I liked his blade better and the fact that it was better balanced and wasn’t twisted from the start and had a bit better fit and finish in the handle should have made up the difference in that little bend.
But that said, Murray was a totally classy dude throughout the episode. He had some very stiff competition too. A lot of these smiths aren’t even close to his capabilities or experience, but in this episode, all three were legit.
In my book, Murray is and will always be... The Man
Murray,I was excited to see you on the show! I remember visiting your shop when it was in Vernonia, I was very impressed with your skill, and blessed to have you spend a few hours with me. I was pulling for you 100%, and was disappointed when you did not win.
You make the best blades I've used.....welcome to the world of television.....
I DVR'd all FIF episodes. I was thrilled to see you in the show.
You did great Murray.
What I actually found interesting in the show was Doug Marcaida saying after he sliced the meat, your blade tend move while making a big slice. I found that really interesting. I thought it was because it had more flex and it was sharper.
One thing they did not consider was, Kris sword is used in combat. So the stationary bamboo test did not make much sense . You want a sword that penetrates suspended bamboo ( like in combat ) .
I did not watch the show but I have purchased your book and read it lots of times. I can understand it might have been a bit heart breaking to lose but your explanations on the difference between Japanese and western style blades was very informative and answered alot of questions I had pondered on. Thanks for the book and thanks for this video both are very informative.
I watched the show and was glad to see you gives us your fans an explaination of how the decision was made best of all what u learned .. Joe 1 big FAN !
-- A bit off topic -- I think it would be a very interesting series to see Murray create his take on historical knives from around the world, even if it was just for a video and not a production model. I think it would be cool to see him examine knives like the Finnish Puukko, Sami Leuku, American Kephart, American Nessmuk, French/English trade knives, etc and get his thoughts on their design and use. It would also be cool to see him then create a modern replica blending his styles and techniques with the historical design. Just an idea!
Haha had the same idea! Started it on my channel. I'm an amateur but I like forging. Did the pukko last week and will do a tanto soon.
Well, sounds like you learned how to win that particular competition. If I want an elegant, top performance knife for everyday use, Carter can't be beat. If I want a sharpened pry bar, I guess a Busse is warranted. Regardless of the outcome, I rooted for you the whole time.
Thanks for the insight into your decision process.
They were told to make functional weapons. You do NOT want your weapon to bend and stay bent on the battlefield. It is pretty simple to understand. They weren't making a "Kris for everyday use."
@@Krytern yep, just another person saying "what I like is the real deal, everyone else likes sharpened prybars". Carter obviously didn't heat treat his blade correctly. He went for toughness, not strength. His fault. And it looks like he still doesn't realize it.
@@oceanwaves83 Yes, exactly. I don't fault people for making mistakes but I do if they refuse to learn from them and make excuses.
@@Krytern Get over yourself, put it on your blog boyo. Keep us posted with your prized insight on faults in people. Out of the billion people on UA-cam your opinion is relevant.
Loved the thoughts and the episode. Worthy of being a season finale.
As long as you learned something, and enjoyed yourself, you won.
Murray almost choked saying"homogeneous steel" lol! True master artist.
I just watched your episode of 'Forged in Fire'. Good job! I'm impressed.
Hello Murray this might come too late but I still wanted to share this with you,
it is really nice to learn from you hearing those thoughts, I was suprised to see in the show that you oil quenched your blade. But I understand that you did not want to risk having it break during the quenching or ending up with a brittle blade. There is a reason that most Katana's don't make it past the quenching.
The flexing occurred with blades out of your comfort zone. It will only happen to a kitchen knife with abuse or crushing garlic with a thin Japanese blade.
Stay proud of your work, your experience is in laminated steel which put you at an disadvantage in this competetion. (Your style is more complex, with their materials and those time constraints I am suprised that everythng went this smoothly).
I hope I can take a look at one of your blades sometime.
stay safe
Philipp
I personally like your work better, I do find it funny that you have been a master smith and have been in the trade longer than one of the judges.
Thank you.
Murray, So impressed and appreciate your humility. I wish I could learn from you. See your inbox; Eager apprentice candidate here ready to soak it up. You will not find a more studious workhorse. True story.
Just watched the episode.
You and the older fella outdid yourselves in the first challenge of making a knife. You both did some amazingly clean pieces in the time allotted.
for the final sword, im not sure where the bend occurred, but it seemed like the final blow hit the side of the blade, not the edge. The judges, as you already know, are not familiar with the techniques you practice in japanese knife making. Even the one judge stated that he was weary of the "soft steel core".
All-in-all, making a san-mai style sword is quite the feat. It is not common practice and is very risky at those lengths. But you definitely more than exceeded my expectations at showing you capabilities throughout the show. Its a bit of a flip of the coin for the challenges they throw at you especially if its not what you make on a daily basis. But you can tell the true experts when they are working.
Great job, even more of a fan now.
Hi, recently watched some episodes and I'd love to get one particular answer from someone who took part in contest. How the whole heat treat during the in-studio part of FiF really looked like? Nobody mentions anything about tempering the blade and it really looked like most of makers overheated the steel (Too much light in room?) Really, nobody mentions anything apart quenching. Overall cool show, but obviously made to appeal for non-bladesmiths. Your design was really nice by the way, found Your channel because of show and now I subbed and I'm catching up :)
I'm glad to see you cleared up some stuff in this reflection! You brought a level of professionalism and mastery to the program that far exceeded everyone there. I think if you had known how the blade would have been tested you would have easily won! And you could always remake the sword and put it through the tests again just to prove to yourself that the performance of your style. I hated to see you lose but that's how competitions go. People make mistakes in competitions and I believe your everyday cutlery far out-performs the rest!
Hi, i like your videos, really entertaining and full of details and information. i do have one question though, do you make Japanese Katanas? if so what is the cost of them, i am interested.
thank you :)
$10,000,00 is $10,000.00 but your work and the number of blades you have made speaks for itself
I think its bunk you lost, but I still know your background and you are both a master smith of Japanese and American blades, and it speaks volumes when top chiefs have your knives some even from tv.
We all know who is a much better smith overall, Carter Sensei.
I like the show, but I must admit to being taken aback when Doug Marcaida "corrected" Murray's observation that the Kris appears to be a thrusting weapon (which it is). Being from the Philippines, so close to Java, I would think that Doug would have a better knowledge of the Kris and its intended use. All the features of the weapon, like the angle of the grip, tell you that it is a thrusting weapon. The curves allow it to penetrate with ordinary pressure while making a much larger wound. Krises are mainly ceremonial, but it is telling that in executions (the only well-documented functional use of the Kris) they always use it to thrust, not to slash or chop. Doug shouldn't be so hasty in correcting people, and if he's going to co-host an episode focusing on that specific blade, it wouldn't hurt him to do some research beforehand.
FDT GURU. actually in the Philippines it's called a kalis sword. and the purpose of the waves in the blade is to make it slash without getting stuck (if this actually works in practice I'm not sure). a staight sword or blade was thought to easily get stuck in bone. while smaller versions of the keris blade used in other parts of Asia would make sense as a stabbing weapon due to the small size and the desire to get the largest wound by implementing the wave feature of the blade, a large sword used for stabbing wouldn't make as much sense, swords typically are wide enough and long enough that the addition of waves isn't necessary to make large wounds. and yes while the handle is build to allow comfortable stabbing motion, it also allows for comfortable slashing as well, and many tools in the Philippines have similar handle shapes. (i saw quite a few while in bacolod).
Nathan Gonzalez - Thank you for correcting FDT Guru. He shouldn't pretend to know better then someone who literally specialises in bladed weapons.
www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Kris
Use
Functionally, the kris is not a slashing weapon like a bowie knife or other fighting knife, but rather a stabbing instrument. If a kris fighter had stealth on his side, the kris was lethal. There are many stories of a kris being made especially for killing a specific person or ethnic group of people. The wound made by a kris was terrible; the edge of the blade "danced" in the wound, and left tatters of dead flesh, which would begin to rot.
A kris has a cranked hilt, which serves as support for a stabbing strike. At the same time, it allows the strength of the wrist to be added to the pressure on the blade while slashing and cutting. Kris has no special protection for the hand, except for the broadness of the blade at the hilt, which offers some protection. In rare cases, a kris has its blade made to rotate around an axis fixed in the hilt, so that the blade could automatically turn to slip past the ribs. This innovation did not function well and adversely affected the durability of the weapon.
actually kris is more javanese than philippines
Murry, I'm curious about the blades that are made and then surrendered when a competitor is cut from each round. Were you able to take your sword home?
as long as you learned things I would say you were successful.
I didn't watch the "Forged in Fire"... I don't have any 'Cable or Satellite TV services' I cut it out of my life years ago, for the better.
It was interesting to see your reflection video none the less.
Its cool how they put all the yt guys on there its weird seeing you guys on cable TV lol
will there be any tip sharpening videos?
Nice reflection! I would love to see that show. Which episode was it?
Benjamin Rishi It was episode 8: "The Moro Kris."
jawtek82 Thank you ;)
I loved the show man!!
Murray, I would love to meet up with you some time when I come up to Portland to visit my doctors at the VA Hospital. I live in Grants Pass.
Every aspect of that competition was designed to take you guys out of your comfort zones. Time constraints, scrap materials, unfamiliar equipment and so on. There will always be variables that are up for debate with competitions like that. The judge's panel, well, in the end, it's just a panel of personal opinions. Just like top chef or any similar program.....Any given Sunday as they say. I was impressed with your performance as much as any YT video you put out. No harm no foul Murray. Keep it up. We love it!
Murray has made 7 knives for me over the last 25 years. I own bought 2 FS1’s, one for my son and one for me. I have collected dozens and dozens of ABS master smith knives and Murray’s knives are simply beyond compare in terms of function, fit and finish, and beauty. (In my opinion, of course.) I’m an old Marine who still hunts and fishes and I use knives-I don’t just put them in a safe-and I have never had any knife that will skin a deer so effortlessly. 👍🏼🫡❤️
I watched the show in its entirety and I am baffled by the result. Through the prior tests, but especially on the bamboo chop, your kris clearly cut better. How you have a knife making competition where the knife that cuts better does not win is beyond my amateur understanding, bend or not. All credit and respect to Mr. Vitale, but I will continue to buy Carter Cutlery knives, thank you very much.
***** It is very common for durability to have severe consequences. For example in the BladeSports competitions and even in the MS tests for the ABS, you can't have a blade chip during the cutting. If you make a blade that cuts through the 2x4 very well, stays very sharp but chips - well you fail.
However you know this going in so you design accordingly. If you don't know, well it is a little bit more difficult. Just think about the knives you have and picking one for a competition and I don't tell you the events. It is pretty easy to pick a very good knife that does horribly if the knife doesn't match the events well.
But of course this is about entertainment mainly.
Cliff Stamp I get the strong impression the producers of this show are not people who frequently use knives in their work.
StudyinSteel You'd be right. They use cameras
Knives on the show are supposed to be functional WEAPONS.The sword he made is supposed to be a functional WEAPONS. When on the battlefield your sword slices through someone and gets to bone, or hits armour/shield, you do NOT want it to bend. No matter what country it is from. This is very simple to understand there is more to a bladed weapon then "durrr it cuts well!".
I think that Mr. Carter contributes far more to the knife making community than Forged in Fire. I also think his response to his surprising loss was with class.
I was looking at the Forged in Fire topic on Bladeforums, and I saw a very interesting point. The people who really don't know too much about knives can be easily misled by this show. Someone in the forum itself was questioning why they let a "college professor" JD Smith into the show! JD SMITH! I think that if someone gets disqualified in the show, people who don't really understand knives dismiss the maker as inferior. "oh it bent, that means his work sucks". All of the people who watched Forged in Fire will not see this video explaining how and why the sword bent rather than flexed. Hopefully this show promoted Mr. Carter's knives instead of damaging his reputation!
twinmill97 I surprised that a maker as well established as Carter would have involved himself in this stupid history channel dramatization. The internet actually facilitates dialogue about knives between producers and users instead of TV's monologue presentation.
StudyinSteel Have you actually watched this "stupid history channel dramatization?
Swords are built for combat. The knives forged on the show are supposed to be functional WEAPONS. When it slides through someone and hits bone you do not want it to bend and stay bent. Simple.
Rougemont_Forge ,his arrogance destroyed his rep . Sorry but I seen alot of boastful smiths get demolished . There ego was a prime factor in them not winning . He is like Hillary Clinton complaining why she didn't win. Sad thing is you know it.
Oh by the way , did you see the episode of the claymore sword? That sword bent . He lost because his sword wasnt a good as his competition. Why can't liberal fascist progressive socialist luciferian leftest except results . Cry me a river
which eps were you in?
I looked it up -- it's season 1, episode 8, the moro kris.
What can i use for damascus steel instead of borax ?
maltafire360 You could go to someone like Ric Furrer to learn how to make his emulation of Wootz crucible steel which is "real" damascus steel, not a folded pattern weld.
thanks i will try to see
Murray, just curious but do they tell you guys what kind of tests they will be running in the blade? Because in all fairness to you, if they asked you to make a sword but don't tell you if it's going to be a battery of piercing tests vs chopping tests, then they put you in the position of bringing a knife to a gun fight... Either way, it was a tough break Murray. I was rootin for you! Someday I'd like to be able to afford one of your knives and take it in the bush as my beloved main carry.
Btw- you looked bad ass on the show man! You just had a kick ass swagger about you, similar to a martial arts grand master! The other older blade smith was a riot too! He seemed like a really nice guy! Too bad he got cut in the second round. I would have liked to see the two of you compete together on the kris swords.
***** Murray had know idea what the tests were going to be. He didn't even know what equipment was going to be available for use! That knife he forge welded was the first time he has ever used a gas forge.
Wow! So essentially there is an element of luck involved due to the fact that you ultimately have to guess as to what the intended purpose of the knife to be tested will be.... Which can result in you bringing a Ferrari to an off road competition as Murray stated.
CarterCutlery How does that compare to the pine charcoal (I think) forge that Murray uses? I assume he prefers the pine charcoal, but is there any particular reason why? I've been facinated with knife making for a long time and enjoy learning these little details from a true expert.
+cryptkeeper113 I think because pine burns hot and clean and has less sulphur and phosphorous and such in it
Pretty sure 1035 isn't spring steel
Technically it isn't designated a spring steel, but is able to harden to an extent when water quenched where it can become more "springy" than the typical mild steel (gokunantetsu) found on Japanese san mai billets.
I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. Like you said, you were concerned about not having time for a water-quench if the straightness was affected. Anything on television will be dumbed-down.
Just saw this episode and thought Murray's blade was very good and actually thought he won. However, I thought the 22,000 knives was a bit exaggerated, but since I'm no blade master, that may be true. I don't know. I found on his website that he's now made over 25,000 knives. www.cartercutlery.com/our-story/meet-murray-carter/
so from this, he went to Japan at 18 and met a Bladesmith so let's assume he started making knives at 18. I don't know how old he is, but for calculations, let's just ballpark him at 48, although he's probably younger. So between 18 and 48, 30 years, he'd have to make 833 knives a year to get to 25,000. That's 2.25 knives per day, every day. We know that the 6 days he was on FIF, he only made 2, so he had to make up the other 11 knives on another day. Is that even possible? Somebody help me make sense of these numbers.
Kenichi shiraki for example used to pump out 200 forged knives a day and they were of top quality and forged from hitachi one. Murray is definitely being real
Yes it is possible and I would just point out your number is an average of two knives a day and what that means realistically. Because I'm sure when you imagine it it seems like it'd take a whole day to turn a steel bar into a final pristine sharp knife ready to be put in a box, by the time you start your second steel bar it's probably dark out.
In reality what he more likely does is tackle each step in batches. What that means is he can spend one whole day doing nothing but forging, prepping the bars, have a batch of billets ready to be put into forge, pound into shape, stick it in ash or whatever to anneal it, then grab a second bar put in forge, pound into shape, stick it in ash. He could fathomable do 100 of these in a day without having to move from the same spot, each takes 10 minutes? Then on next day it's the next step, then spend another whole day doing nothing but grinding and sharpening. So he could get 100 knives done in one batch after two months or whatever and that would average down to 2 knives a day.
I think the problem with modern Western blade enthusiasts is that they expect a cutting tool to be able to be used as a crowbar and a war club. Only in Western knife enthusiasts is this the case. Most craftsmen and professional blade users understands that a chisel is meant to cut well but not pry, a razor blade is meant to cut well but not pry and a scalpel is meant to cut well but not pry. When you start tilting towards the pry-bar end of the spectrum the cut well end starts fading. There is no perfect blade. There are blades that are perfect for certain tasks. Forged In Fire is leading people to think that any knife worth a damn should be able to shave right after cutting a piece of bone cleanly in two. Not true. It’s like screwdrivers versus chisels versus pry bars: the uneducated expect them to be interchangeable. Right tool for right job. Use a club to beat people up, a sword to cut flesh and a rifle to penetrate clothing and armor. Forged In Fire is a cooking competition with steel.
blcouch to become a journeyman smith in the ABS your knife has to chop through 2 2x4’s, then chop a 1” suspended rope, after that you have to be able to shave arm hair. After all that you put your knife in a vise and bend it 90 degrees to see if it breaks. If it doesn’t break then you become a journeyman smith. So are you saying ABS requirements are too high also?
I love Murray carter and watching the only makes me want a blade from him more
I doubt the judges didn't understand Japanese forgery. The judges seem to have a large vocabulary of experience in different techniques. It is usually the contestants that are limited to doing it a certain way.
Heki Kahni sounds to me like he's making excuses for his failures. The judges on that show are master knife makers and I'm sure they are just as educated in Japanese knife making as he is. This man let his ego take over and when he lost then he couldn't handle it so his ego made him make a video blaming the judges instead of himself. I'm not a knife maker but I've seen a lot of people's ego get the best of them. He may be an excellent knife maker but he needs to learn how to except that he's not perfect and he will make mistakes, it's part of the learning process and you are never too old or too good to learn something new.
Right?! Like dude, your blade BENT it should NOT bend and STAY bent.
What episode was you in please
They might have trouble getting volunteer smiths in the future because you have a far better chance of coming off as being incompetent instead of being the hero if you screwup, don't win the episode or have your blade catastrophically fail during one of the more ridiculous tests. I bet people are not lining up to give their business to the black guy who was disqualified right away because he didn't put in the minimum number of ingredients into his billet.
verry intresting, thanks for the explination. i have been thinking for a long time about a san mai blade with a medium carbon cladding and a high carbon core.
the fact that mild steel clad san mai knives can take a bend i have always thought is a disadvantage. in the field, i would not want my knife to bend even if it didnt break. it might make it unusable esp if i didtt have the abilty to straighten it in the field. a springy knife would probably not break from the same stresses that would put a bend in a mild steel clad san mai knife.
just getting into bladesmithing so i have verry little experience and knoladge however, its nice to know someone is doing this already.
I think it was fair-ish. Murray was praised for his craftsmanship but at certain point the judges seemed smirking out of ignrance or uninformed of what he was doing. Also, while his competitor did indeed forge a sword that stood up the tests better than Murray's did, he had also forged said sword before, while Murray hadn't had experience with it. Bummer he didn't win.
scarfire87 "Smirking out of ignrance (sic) or uninformed of what he was doing?" WTH are you talking about?
Mr. Carter is a master of blades and makes exquisite quality blades. That said, this vlog seems kind-of-like an excuse for his performance. Honestly, he was invited on the show, so he deserved to be in the company that he kept. The "win" is being on the show, and being chosen as best knife for that shot, that blade, that test, that day, nothing more. He was not asked to bring a ferrari to a knife fight, so i think he should have just taken the TV show as it was, not try to give us an excuse.
Right? On the show they are specifically told to create a 'functional weapon'. Even the knives in the first two rounds are supposed to be functional WEAPONS, not for every day use. On the battlefield having a weapon that bends and stays bent the moment it hits bone or armour/shield is a bad weapon to have. Grab any, proper Japanese WEAPON that he loves so much and it won't bend like that. This guy is seriously full of himself.... Of course he is the one who took a 'farrari'.
I wonder if the timer is just for show and tension in other words do you get like more or less the time u need
Ahh screw it here is my 2 cents -- I am proud to own a Murray Carter blade -- $10,000 bucks would be nice too!
I've seen that episode and you had the best looking and in my opinion, the BEST blades in the whole competition!! I've studied Japanese blades for a long time, and i understood why you crafted them the way you did... its too bad the judges were looking for something different, and didn't understand why the blade bent, instead of breaking. (pretty obvious if you ask me haha) and just on another note, I've used longer blades that are "springy" and compared to ones that bend and don't spring back.. the springy ones wear me out very quickly, (from all the added turbulence) and the ones that would bend, seem to only to bend when my form and technique starts to get sloppy! keep up the great work Murray, i love your blades!!
On the battlefield, Japanese or European blade, you do not want it to bend and stay bent the moment you hit bone or armour/shield. You also don't want it to snap when this happens and a well made European weapon will not snap, just like a well made Japanese weapon won't bend. It was his fault not the judges 'wanting something different'.
Krytern UK - "just like a well made Japanese weapon won't bend"... Not sure where you came up with that but historically as sell as modernly Japanese swords and cutlery were and are made to be tough, but not resilient. This is what happens when you have a soft(er) iron jacket on a core of hardened steel (when making a san mai construction) and clay the entire spine and most of the sides on the blade in order to keep the main body of the sword soft during the quench, which is also what creates the hamon. The geometry and heat treating methods between Japanese and European swords were different, as most European swords were heat treated and ground to a geometry that would lend them to be more resilient and spring back to true after bending. Katana are very thick, but are still soft on the spine and sides of the blade which will allow the blade (which the hardened core/edge) to bend as opposed to break when it received a lot of impact, which could then be bent back afterwards. A bent sword is better than a broken sword, and the Japanese' layered iron/steel construction and differential heat treat are both designed to make tough (different that resilient) blade while also being able to take and retain a keen edge.
Japanese make mono steel knives and have done so for a very long time. You are often charged even more for a honyaki kitchen knife from many makers and they are sold as their top of the range knives by many smiths.
Also saying laminated blades will never break (catastrophically fail) and could always be bent back seems to go against everything we are taught about materials. If the deformation remains in the elastic region it should return to it's original shape but once you're into inelastic deformation this isn't true. Also every material fails at some point.
I do love the show, and was absolutely THRILLED to see Murray compete! However, I have a bit of an issue with how they test the blades on the program. The testing of the blades is not truly scientific; there is too much room for human error. For example, when Doug cut through the slab of meat in this week's episode and mentioned Murray's blade had a bit of drag, as Murray mentioned on the show, that was more likely due to a human error rather than a fault in the blade. I've seen both David and J attempt to cut certain items with the different blades and succeeded with one yet failed with the other, yet when the footage was slowed down it was obvious that they didn't necessarily swing the failing weapon true with every stroke. Having a man test the blade leaves a lot of room for unforeseen variables, variables that could be the difference in $10,000. Maybe its just me but if I were to take two weeks out of my busy life competing and putting my reputation on the line, I would want my blade tested as fairly possible. Yes, the blades are built to be wielded by a human, but if you are going to test the performance of multiple blades head to head in a controlled environment you have to have a constant in the experiment, and a human simply can't provide that constant. Given that some of the performance tests are bit faulty (IMO) and fact that the contestants are forging a weapon without knowing exactly how it will be used or tested, it nearly makes it a crap shoot to win. If the show is to continue, which I REALLY hope it does, I wish they could truly compare the weapons' performances capabilities with a more even and fair assessment. I do realize that at the end of the day it is just a TV show, but that's just my humble opinion. Heck for all I know the show may be boring if they go all MythBusters with the testing. Just my $.02. Don't scream at me if you disagree.
absuperman I noticed the flaw in Doug's swing in slo-mo. I felt he should have swing again. I'm positive Doug felt it and probly let his pride stop him from admitting it.
"I lost because I made a Japanese blade but it was tested on a western style test." Because the bamboo cutting he admitted was his failure, is just an unheard of thing in Japan. They don't even know what bamboo is right?
C'mon man. You make beautiful knives. I'm not even going to try and take that away from you. You are an excellent craftsman. Just stop making excuses. You sound desperate.
here's an analogy to explain. He used a Ferrari on course designed for a pickup truck.
I just watched the show for the first time on History Channel and believe that the judges don't understand what a Kris is designed to accomplish, which is stabbing or thrusting. If you look at a traditional Kris' tang design, it isn't designed to hold up to chopping. The little stick tang on my Morro Kris and it's dinky handle won't hold up to much chopping. I feel that the judges are the ones that don't know what they are talking about.
Laminated blades are "impossible to break?" I bet you $1000 that you can give me any laminated blade and I can break it easily in under 5mins.
This is the problem with a lot of people who are fans of Japanese blades. They think they are invulnerable and the only true sharp blades out there.
I can already tell you, if it bends easily it lacks strength and apex stability at extreme keenness. Resistance to fracture (toughness) is good to have, but a STRONG blade will resist fracture AND bending, as well as support extremely keen edges better.
The Ace - If the entire blade was that soft I would agree, but there is more than enough of the hardened core steel behind the edge apex on properly treated laminated blades to support it. The laminated sides aren't needed for toughness with modern steels when it comes to keep blades from breaking, even when they're fully tempered martensite from edge to spine, but it really helps when you want the edge to be very hard, much harder than you would want the rest of the blade to be in a mono-steel if it's not for the most part strictly for kitchen/food prep type use. The reason for the use of this technique now is exactly for the edge attributes you were were describing, which allows the edge to remain much harder that the body in order to promote the ability for it to take, support, and keep a very fine and keen edge. The hardened steel core in the blade is able to bend because its low carbon sides are bonded (welded) to the core and they support it by acting as one piece, keeping it from fracturing much sooner when stressed than it would without the soft(er) outer layers, especially at the high hardness of the core steel.
The judges on FIF, at least on Murray's episode, including ABS MS James Neilson didn't seem to be well versed in soft jacket laminated (San Mai) steels and how they're treated, or in Japanese bladesmithing techniques, as also seen by their reaction to Murray's ability to water-quench his first san mai blade on the set on the show. The ABS focuses on using and teaching western bladesmithing techniques, (which are great!), whereas san mai is very much a Japanese technique, and it creates different characteristics than the usual mono-steel blades made in the west, or even pattern welded steel blades often seen in the ABS blades which are now days mostly composed of two very similar steels that will harden to the same degree, and so it will act very similarly to a mono-steel blade. I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but they both can make excellent blades, especially at the edge apex, which is the primary focus of much of Japanese cutlery and is much of the reason behind their use of low carbon steels laminated to the core steels.
@@lsubslimed irrelevant. The end result of the blade lacked strength. He needed a grade 8 bolt, and submitted a grade 5 bolt instead. Toughness doesn't make up for lack of strength. It's a weapon and it shouldn't bend easily. You don't need to know shit about Japanese bladesmithing techniques to know that.
The Ace - I wasn't referring to Murray's blade or the competition in particular, I was referring to your comment about it the edge lacking any strength to support the edge apex, which is the exact area the strength in a san mai blade is meant to be. It seemed you though that, because the body of the sword could bend, that it implied the cutting edge had the same attributes as the rest of the body, but if you read my last comment you'll see why that isn't necessarily the case. Purpose of san mai= softer (tough) body, hard (strong) edge, which is the same principal of differentially hardened blades. That's all I was trying to clear up. Take care
He should be a judge on the show and not a contestant. He maybe got more experience in bladesmith more than any other judge. He's an awesome teacher and he help me (indirectly) on my sharpening skills more than anyone. I think the show is some part stupid. The next step is to ask Bob Kramer to be a contestant. It make no sense.
I've learned alot from your videos and knowledge. I'm using a CPM-M4 Benchmade Contego now and love it compared to 154CM.
Now my interest is sparked in your blades and other laminate/san mai steel!
Murray Carter is great knife maker and I have a lot of respect for Mr.Carter. He should walked away with his head held high and left it that.
Sounds like part of the difficulty in giving Forged In Fire credibility is the lack of transparency in what you're getting into. It seems really hard to try to have an ultimate test since there are so many applications and decisions based on the use and desired features, that you can't just match any kind of blade against each other and test them in a certain way without them being comparable in purpose. Like you wouldn't match claymore and katana against each other, it just doesn't make too much sense. If you're trying to draw conclusions from the bladesmith's skill and put them in order like that, it's somewhat apples to oranges and doing a disservice to all if it's reviewed too one-dimensionally.
Essentially it sounds like a nightmare job, making design choices blindly trying to guess what the customer is using it for. Turns out when you guess wrong for what you're judged for, it's not your skill that is reviewed but your luck. If you get to know the test before hand, you can actually make educated decisions and perfect your choices towards that. Also pretty fascinating that a lot of the decisions also just come down to what you have at hand in the timeframe given. Cool that the experience still managed to teach something useful. To me it seems like better than the shows is when the professionals explain their choices, what they did and why.
Seems 1035 is too low carbon to maintain an edge
The edge isn't made of 1035. it's a san mai.
Yeah how will hammering a knife against a block of ever happen in the real world .
Why have your knives gotten exponentially more expensive. I really like them and own one but I truly don't understand
Let me guess, you made more than 20.000 blades and that's why you lost your bullshit.
Yelp review on this bozo - Welcome to bizarre insanity. The founder of this place made a book about himself where he says his greatest influences are Conan the Barbarian and Jesus Christ. He walks around open carrying a .45 on premises, and rants and raves about conspiratorial political ideas in front of staff and customers. With only a few minute conversation you will find that he is delusional about what his company actually is, which is very specialized knives that are massively over priced. Terrible. Just terrible.
Who cares if he open carries. You're very confused for think that matters. Stay in San Francisco sissy.
Conan the Barbarian and Jesus Christ, hahahhaha!!
+Carter Cutlery IIIIIIIIINNNNNNNN OTHER WORDS! Like usual Mr. Murray Carter Quite LITERALLY knows more about knives and steel than the people judging his work. Fucking typical. You should take these fools on your yearly trip to Japan, show them what bladesmithing really looks like.
Of course, because only Japan does true blacksmithing right? Idiot.
Well you lost, don't make excuses. But hey you did pretty good reguardless.....don't forget to mention AGAIN you made over 22,000 knives!
I can see how your style of bladesmithing worked against you in a competition like Forged In Fire. I don't doubt that your blades are awesome. One thing I have learned from watching that show is that if you want to win never ever laminate steel. It takes up too much time and often the testing they do will cause it to fail. The guys that win are not the 100 layers Damascus guys - ever. Their blades look cool and are probably good in other ways but not good for the competition.
salty
He's clearly great at what he does but this video was a poor decision. You're making excuses for losing. Just take the loss and move on.
I think Doug had an issue with you Murray, he was overly critical on his observations and when he didn’t put his hands together in that gesture that he does when you handed in your blade it confirmed everything that I sensed beforehand.
Ah Murray, i'm sorry you lost! You know Westerners don't care about edge geometry or anything that matters! They just want a steel club to smash trees down. i would love to watch the episode, I hear its a decent show.
The example of a Ferrari being brought do an off road race is a perfect example haha.
+Max Savino I care about edge, which when it comes to wepons like the tanto and katana, you have the japanese sword that is differntaly heat treated, and has the curvature of the blade which aids in the slicing, it might not be the biggest sword out there, but the style of heat treating, lamination, and the way they are sharpened makes them that much better for cutting and slicing, they westerners dont go over and over with finer and finer stones for extended periods of time to sharpen, like the japanese do, same with the sushi knives like the yangi ba, or the eel knife it has such a fine edge it can make the cuts that long and thin, try that with a typical western knife and it will come up short 8 out of 10 times.
by the way carter sensei how come there have been no new videos for 4 months.
This is one of the most ignorant and misinformed comments I have seen in a long time.
That show has a lot of flaws. I really wanted you to win.
“ impossible to break “ .. did I hear you correctly..??.. hmmmm sounds like horseshit ....
i felt like they didnt want you to win. your kriss and knives were way better than the rest.
michael james Why in the hell would they not want him to win? And if that was the case, why not just eliminate him in the first stage?
Way better than the rest? On the show they are specifically told to create a 'functional weapon'. Even the knives in the first two rounds are supposed to be functional WEAPONS, not for every day use. On the battlefield having a weapon that bends and stays bent the moment it hits bone or armour/shield is a bad weapon to have. Grab any, proper Japanese WEAPON that he loves so much and it won't bend like that. This guy is seriously full of himself.... Of course he is the one who took a 'farrari'.
Sounds like 9 min of excuses.