Hehehe, I am so happy to hear that 😁 I'm working on it as we speak, and I have taken my info from so many source books for V:tM and Dark Ages Vampire, it's crazy. There is so much to say in regards to how real life practices, from various places, influence the mechanics of Koldunism in game, and how perceptions of the sorcerer with their enigmatic figure and traits (whether they are called Koldun or something else), vary from culture to culture or region to region. I just hope I can box everything into a decent length episode 😔 (and not compare sources for hours 😆)
Oh hey btw this video made me remember, here is a 1, 2 punch combo for an 8th gen pretender elder with level 6 Vicissitude. You choose the Vicissitude 6 power (cant remember the name of it right now) that allows you to steal body parts and make them work as well, as your body identifies it as "yours". You do whatever you have to to get ahold of the Severence Ritual of Tlacique Thaumaturgy. (Difficult, I know) Once you have these both, you foster a cult and you offer them the ability to see, hear, touch, and speak with the power of a "god" and woo them I to accepting taking one hand, eye, ear, and vocal chords of the follower and "make them your own" with Vicissitude 6. Then commit Severance ritual and separate those parts. Then use Vicissitude 6 again to have the follower readopt the part. Now this part is both yours and their and you both may use them normally. You see what they see, hear what they hear, can touch what they touch, and can speak with your voice whenever you'd like to. This means you may function as normal and see through ALL of your eyes and hear through ALL of your ears and may make attacks of all levels of all disciplines via any and or all of your followers. This mimics the aim of the Eldest in its capacity and function, elevating their adherence to the path of metamorphosis in almost every case. Btw with this you may also remove your brain and your heart to make a "disposable" body as a doppelganger acting without fear, meanwhile your true body should be hidden within your war ghoul built with pleasure of spare parts as it is primarily a body factory for you and as a fierce defender as your last line of defense.
Whooooa! That is sick! 🤯 The only thing I'm not sure about is... Vicissitude 6 on 8th gen? Wouldn't the character require 7th gen? Still, awesome combo 🥰
@@theoldcountry If he has Thaumaturgy, there is the rank 2 or 3 ability on the Path of Blood that effectively lowers a Practitioners generation by 1 for the duration of a scene. During this, an 8th Generation Vampire can use 6th dot disciplines, assuming they have done so enough times to actually know the 6th dot power.
Hey! I'm binging all the videos about the blood sorcery and your channel is, I think, doing the best job at it on YT! It's awesome how in-depth you go in your videos. I wonder tho, did you ever did any reading about the changeling-vamps? I think they're fascinating, but finding any resources about them is so difficult
Hey! Glad you're enjoying the episodes 🥰 Ahm, the Kiasyd are quite fascinating and I've even bought some fan-made Bloodline book for them off of ST Vault in my attempts to understand them better, but I can't say the lore is too rich or very clear. I still find myself baffled by this Bloodline and I'm not sure if I'll ever really understand what's up with them. Maybe that's the whole charm... 🤔 If I figure them out, for sure I'll make an episode on them 😉
Huh! I'm surprised I haven't seen the similarities until now. Interestingly enough, we did run a Star Wars game using this d10 system, and it was a blast 😆 Then we switched to Star Wars based on 3.5 and that one worked better than expected 😌
Oh man I love this topic, and it definitely explains the major thing that does bug me about V5 grouping ALL blood sorceries together. Some just don't click together! Hell, sometimes even within the same clan. Quietus and Dur-an-Ki are very different disciplines, for instance - Quietus seems to have some similarities to Thaumaturgy, whereas Dur-an-Ki actually is quite similar to Koldunic sorcery, with their method of spirit contact (and indeed, I have a Banu Haqim ashipu and a young Koldun in a coterie with each other, slowly teaching each other their disciplines). For those, I can see cross-clan learning being possible, although others (Dur-an-Ki and, say, Akhu) not so much. For another story, I have an old Koldun (a childe of Koban) and a necromancer of the Ash Path (a childe of Roger de Camden) in a relationship, and they've just... mutually agreed that their sorceries aren't compatible, so there's no real point teaching each other. Looking forward to the Koldunic sorcery episode! My favourite portrayal of a Koldun is Ilias in the Dark Ages Tzimisce novel, he's just a fantastic character. Can't wait to hear it!
I love that they grouped Necromancy with Obtenibration, those two are definitely the closest related disciplines. Not like the Cappadocians actually got along with the early Tremere because both sides recognized how similar their disciplines where, and lead to the Covenant and Shadow Larceny War between the Tremere and the Giovanni. And as everyone knows in the cosmology of Wraith, the dead lands and the Labyrinth/Abyss/Hell/The Pit, are definitely close to eachother, and accessed in the same way. Definitely.
This is something interesting, however this is also a little disheartening, my character is a Malkavian(Caitiff) 7 generation that has his blood mutated by a 4* generation Tzimitsie, my character is a Knight and was taken away by this old man, so powerful that make werewolf fear and run, I was so happy to know I can learn magic, but with this video I better find another way, maybe create a new magical discipline or something, start a bloodline, something's new.
I've been watching and re-watching this video and it's been a week now. Magic is much deeper than I thought. Right now I'm playing a Lasombra in v5, he joined the Cult of Shalim, which in short is Abyss Mysticism, with a touch of the path of night. It's strange to think of the Abyss in the new lore, Whraith brings so much information that it makes Obtenebration seem like necromancy. Anyway, I like to think of the Abyss as hell, which goes well with the Lasombra's relationship with the Church. i would like to know more about how to deepen the study/worship of the Abyss, how to make it more substantial?
I'm super glad you're enjoying the episode and it makes you come back for more 🥰 In the next Vampire episode we'll be looking at Koldunism, but after that, we can totally do Abyss Mysticism 😉 It is one of my favorite magics and I have played characters who had knowledge of the rituals of the Abyss. The only thing is, I can't look at it from a V5 perspective, because I don't know my V5 well enough 😋 I'll be getting my info from Dark Ages Vampire and 20th Anniversary
Ah, Mage... I really enjoyed Mage, as a player, even though everyone had a... 15 page (I think it was) mini rulebook on them. I dread to think how it is for a Storyteller 😆
If the power of Giovanni necromancy or setite magic come from committing atrocities... shouldn't it be more powerful if the vampire is on Humanity and actually feels the horror? Like it's not a powerful sacrifice of humanity if you don't feel it?
Very good question! In this case, the idea behind these practices isn't just to be cruel for cruelty sake, it's to violate human taboos, and to imitate an initial deity/teacher of these ways (in the case of Setites), or to become imbued with/accustomed to the energies of death to the point where you can manipulate them (Giovanni). The violation of taboos by these two clans aims to bring them closer to the "realms" they influence and their goals. Cruelty, in this case, is just a means to an end, a means of designating yourself as an enemy of creation and a servant of Set/Typhon, in the case of Setites. If a Lector Priest maintains his Blasphemy Shrine by chaining and burning a mortal alive on it, their purpose is to maintain the shrine, their connection to their deity and their power... by any means necessary. If burning someone on the shrine is a way to do that, then that's what they'll do. Becoming a corrupter of creation is an attitude towards both the self and towards the world, an imitation of Set/Typhon, regardless of what that imitation demands of the practitioner. It's a form of sympathetic magic, based on the imitation of the archetypal figure of the dark god. And, naturally, the more intense the imitation, (or in the Giovanni's case - the more intense and disgusting the desecration), the more powerful the effect is going to be. But again, it's not based on cruelty directly, for cruelty sake. It's a violation of ALL things taboo for normal human society (which is why incest is so frequent among the Giovanni, for instance) Humanity, in this case, the imitation of "normal" human behavior and ethics, is precisely what's going to keep the Lector Priest/Necromancer from indulging in these inhuman practices. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'd sooner die than to willingly torture someone or desecrate a corpse (unless I've already degenerated to an inhumane sicko). That's something my current humanity systematically disallows, and no promise of power or torture is going to change that. I'd sooner die than do it. Those who do engage in such practices, whether intimidated into it or out of twisted curiosity, are already low on the humanity scale and according to the game's own rules, after repeatedly committing sins of this type, they will either fall to the Beast, or adopt a new path of morality. There is no way a practitioner of the Path of Humanity can perform these practices for an extended time without adopting a completely different code of ethics or just going into Wassail. I wrote this in a hurry so I really hope I made sense 😆
I still haven't had my first game of VtM yet, though I know my character, a malk that works with his primogen in a hospital, and I was wondering if it would be possible for him to try learning necromancy. If any clan outside of Giovanni would be ok with disturbing practices I feel it would be Malkavian. I also hope this comment helps the algorithm get you attention. Have a good one.
Hmmm, well, ultimately, provided the character is willing, invested, and has a mentor, they could learn Necromancy, though the practice would erode their humanity (especially some particular rituals). Giovanni aren't the only ones who make use of this type of sorcery, though... but other practitioners have different paths. Learning it outside of clan, though very rare, is not impossible. In this episode I know I said chances are close to zero, but your never know where the story leads characters in the World of Darkness :D Since you are a fan of the Malkavian clan, I must tell you that I'm currently playing a Nosferatu Neonate who is in a mutual, second drink Blood-Bond with a Lunatic Neonate. Though it never even crossed my mind at the start of the chronicle, I'm currently hoping my Leper can learn Dementate from his lover, not because it's a useful discipline (since it would be of much more immediate use to increase Obfuscate or Potence), but because it makes sense with current events. He's been nurturing that bond quite a bit, trying to assist the exploration and understanding of her derangement, and in turn, she calmed him in his moments of rage and frustration, using Passion (level 1 Dementate), keeping him from succumbing to the Beast. Though their love is artificial (and the bond happened by accident... at first), they really help and care for one another, which is a true blessing for the Nosferatu, who barely had any humanity left in him after the embrace and his first nights as Kindred. She's probably what's kept him from going into Wassail. Learning to dull his negative emotions and outbursts in absence of his lover, using Dementate, would really keep him from the ravages of the Beast, especially because he has great difficulty controlling his impulses during certain phases of the moon (Lunacy flaw) and is prone to flying into a frenzy when others enter his domain unannounced or lay a finger on his herd (Territorial flaw). This is, however, something I didn't even consider or expect at the start of the game: a Nossie with Dementate :P If it happens, it's going to be such an interesting experience. As expected, learning this discipline will bestow a derangement upon the Nosferatu, and I'm super excited to find out what it is. Hopefully, I'll find out soon :P But damn, I did not expect to experience any romance this chronicle, definitely not with a character who looks like a bald, noseless zombie with a Habsburg jaw and weeping sores all over his body. Gotta love Malkavians! :D
@@theoldcountry damn, that sounds like an awesome chronicle. I have always thought though that the Nosferatu and Malkavian got along well, both make great spies for the camerilla in my opinion (with Nosferatu stealth and malkavian mind fuckery) and because if anyone can look past a nossies outside apperance and see whats inside I think it's the malks. I hope that one day you tell us more of the tale of the trist of madness and ferocity.
Well, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to 😁 Of course, I don't really recommend that a starting Demon character already have direct knowledge of such practices, but obtaining them throughout the course of the game can be very interesting to do, especially since they could teach their followers too 😈
Yeah, blood sorcery does tend to offer A LOT, doesn't it? Some paths could actively replace certain disciplines and make better versions of said disciplines, which is kind of sad 😔
@@jackmalin2528 Ah, another reason for me to hate the Tremere! This time, not even related to the lore and the horrible things they did, but the mechanics/rules themselves. Thaumaturgy secondary paths are super cheap! Good point! Gah, I hate the Temere! 🤣
can't wait for the kouldun video
Hehehe, I am so happy to hear that 😁
I'm working on it as we speak, and I have taken my info from so many source books for V:tM and Dark Ages Vampire, it's crazy. There is so much to say in regards to how real life practices, from various places, influence the mechanics of Koldunism in game, and how perceptions of the sorcerer with their enigmatic figure and traits (whether they are called Koldun or something else), vary from culture to culture or region to region. I just hope I can box everything into a decent length episode 😔 (and not compare sources for hours 😆)
Oh hey btw this video made me remember, here is a 1, 2 punch combo for an 8th gen pretender elder with level 6 Vicissitude.
You choose the Vicissitude 6 power (cant remember the name of it right now) that allows you to steal body parts and make them work as well, as your body identifies it as "yours".
You do whatever you have to to get ahold of the Severence Ritual of Tlacique Thaumaturgy. (Difficult, I know)
Once you have these both, you foster a cult and you offer them the ability to see, hear, touch, and speak with the power of a "god" and woo them I to accepting taking one hand, eye, ear, and vocal chords of the follower and "make them your own" with Vicissitude 6.
Then commit Severance ritual and separate those parts.
Then use Vicissitude 6 again to have the follower readopt the part. Now this part is both yours and their and you both may use them normally.
You see what they see, hear what they hear, can touch what they touch, and can speak with your voice whenever you'd like to.
This means you may function as normal and see through ALL of your eyes and hear through ALL of your ears and may make attacks of all levels of all disciplines via any and or all of your followers.
This mimics the aim of the Eldest in its capacity and function, elevating their adherence to the path of metamorphosis in almost every case.
Btw with this you may also remove your brain and your heart to make a "disposable" body as a doppelganger acting without fear, meanwhile your true body should be hidden within your war ghoul built with pleasure of spare parts as it is primarily a body factory for you and as a fierce defender as your last line of defense.
Whooooa! That is sick! 🤯
The only thing I'm not sure about is... Vicissitude 6 on 8th gen? Wouldn't the character require 7th gen?
Still, awesome combo 🥰
@@theoldcountry If he has Thaumaturgy, there is the rank 2 or 3 ability on the Path of Blood that effectively lowers a Practitioners generation by 1 for the duration of a scene.
During this, an 8th Generation Vampire can use 6th dot disciplines, assuming they have done so enough times to actually know the 6th dot power.
@@ssjjshawn Forgot about that one 😁
Hey! I'm binging all the videos about the blood sorcery and your channel is, I think, doing the best job at it on YT! It's awesome how in-depth you go in your videos. I wonder tho, did you ever did any reading about the changeling-vamps? I think they're fascinating, but finding any resources about them is so difficult
Hey! Glad you're enjoying the episodes 🥰 Ahm, the Kiasyd are quite fascinating and I've even bought some fan-made Bloodline book for them off of ST Vault in my attempts to understand them better, but I can't say the lore is too rich or very clear. I still find myself baffled by this Bloodline and I'm not sure if I'll ever really understand what's up with them. Maybe that's the whole charm... 🤔
If I figure them out, for sure I'll make an episode on them 😉
This is such a great channel!
I'm very happy you're enjoying it and thank you so much for the comment 😁
It's always nice to know people appreciate 😌
Magic in VTM also sounds a lot like the Force lol.
Huh! I'm surprised I haven't seen the similarities until now. Interestingly enough, we did run a Star Wars game using this d10 system, and it was a blast 😆 Then we switched to Star Wars based on 3.5 and that one worked better than expected 😌
Oh man I love this topic, and it definitely explains the major thing that does bug me about V5 grouping ALL blood sorceries together. Some just don't click together!
Hell, sometimes even within the same clan. Quietus and Dur-an-Ki are very different disciplines, for instance - Quietus seems to have some similarities to Thaumaturgy, whereas Dur-an-Ki actually is quite similar to Koldunic sorcery, with their method of spirit contact (and indeed, I have a Banu Haqim ashipu and a young Koldun in a coterie with each other, slowly teaching each other their disciplines). For those, I can see cross-clan learning being possible, although others (Dur-an-Ki and, say, Akhu) not so much. For another story, I have an old Koldun (a childe of Koban) and a necromancer of the Ash Path (a childe of Roger de Camden) in a relationship, and they've just... mutually agreed that their sorceries aren't compatible, so there's no real point teaching each other.
Looking forward to the Koldunic sorcery episode! My favourite portrayal of a Koldun is Ilias in the Dark Ages Tzimisce novel, he's just a fantastic character. Can't wait to hear it!
I love that they grouped Necromancy with Obtenibration, those two are definitely the closest related disciplines.
Not like the Cappadocians actually got along with the early Tremere because both sides recognized how similar their disciplines where, and lead to the Covenant and Shadow Larceny War between the Tremere and the Giovanni.
And as everyone knows in the cosmology of Wraith, the dead lands and the Labyrinth/Abyss/Hell/The Pit, are definitely close to eachother, and accessed in the same way. Definitely.
It depends on how you look at it the discipline is the same but the ritual which are where the true power are where I see differences...
This is something interesting, however this is also a little disheartening, my character is a Malkavian(Caitiff) 7 generation that has his blood mutated by a 4* generation Tzimitsie, my character is a Knight and was taken away by this old man, so powerful that make werewolf fear and run, I was so happy to know I can learn magic, but with this video I better find another way, maybe create a new magical discipline or something, start a bloodline, something's new.
I've been watching and re-watching this video and it's been a week now. Magic is much deeper than I thought. Right now I'm playing a Lasombra in v5, he joined the Cult of Shalim, which in short is Abyss Mysticism, with a touch of the path of night. It's strange to think of the Abyss in the new lore, Whraith brings so much information that it makes Obtenebration seem like necromancy. Anyway, I like to think of the Abyss as hell, which goes well with the Lasombra's relationship with the Church. i would like to know more about how to deepen the study/worship of the Abyss, how to make it more substantial?
I'm super glad you're enjoying the episode and it makes you come back for more 🥰
In the next Vampire episode we'll be looking at Koldunism, but after that, we can totally do Abyss Mysticism 😉 It is one of my favorite magics and I have played characters who had knowledge of the rituals of the Abyss.
The only thing is, I can't look at it from a V5 perspective, because I don't know my V5 well enough 😋
I'll be getting my info from Dark Ages Vampire and 20th Anniversary
@@theoldcountry V5 doesn't matter much, it's really a challenge for me to devise how to practice abyssal mysticism. Thanks.
>Not playing V20
Why
"Why can't they have ONE system of magic?"
...see also -- Mage : The Ascension. ;)
Ah, Mage... I really enjoyed Mage, as a player, even though everyone had a... 15 page (I think it was) mini rulebook on them. I dread to think how it is for a Storyteller 😆
If the power of Giovanni necromancy or setite magic come from committing atrocities... shouldn't it be more powerful if the vampire is on Humanity and actually feels the horror?
Like it's not a powerful sacrifice of humanity if you don't feel it?
Very good question! In this case, the idea behind these practices isn't just to be cruel for cruelty sake, it's to violate human taboos, and to imitate an initial deity/teacher of these ways (in the case of Setites), or to become imbued with/accustomed to the energies of death to the point where you can manipulate them (Giovanni).
The violation of taboos by these two clans aims to bring them closer to the "realms" they influence and their goals. Cruelty, in this case, is just a means to an end, a means of designating yourself as an enemy of creation and a servant of Set/Typhon, in the case of Setites. If a Lector Priest maintains his Blasphemy Shrine by chaining and burning a mortal alive on it, their purpose is to maintain the shrine, their connection to their deity and their power... by any means necessary. If burning someone on the shrine is a way to do that, then that's what they'll do. Becoming a corrupter of creation is an attitude towards both the self and towards the world, an imitation of Set/Typhon, regardless of what that imitation demands of the practitioner. It's a form of sympathetic magic, based on the imitation of the archetypal figure of the dark god. And, naturally, the more intense the imitation, (or in the Giovanni's case - the more intense and disgusting the desecration), the more powerful the effect is going to be. But again, it's not based on cruelty directly, for cruelty sake. It's a violation of ALL things taboo for normal human society (which is why incest is so frequent among the Giovanni, for instance)
Humanity, in this case, the imitation of "normal" human behavior and ethics, is precisely what's going to keep the Lector Priest/Necromancer from indulging in these inhuman practices. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'd sooner die than to willingly torture someone or desecrate a corpse (unless I've already degenerated to an inhumane sicko). That's something my current humanity systematically disallows, and no promise of power or torture is going to change that. I'd sooner die than do it. Those who do engage in such practices, whether intimidated into it or out of twisted curiosity, are already low on the humanity scale and according to the game's own rules, after repeatedly committing sins of this type, they will either fall to the Beast, or adopt a new path of morality.
There is no way a practitioner of the Path of Humanity can perform these practices for an extended time without adopting a completely different code of ethics or just going into Wassail.
I wrote this in a hurry so I really hope I made sense 😆
I still haven't had my first game of VtM yet, though I know my character, a malk that works with his primogen in a hospital, and I was wondering if it would be possible for him to try learning necromancy. If any clan outside of Giovanni would be ok with disturbing practices I feel it would be Malkavian.
I also hope this comment helps the algorithm get you attention. Have a good one.
Hmmm, well, ultimately, provided the character is willing, invested, and has a mentor, they could learn Necromancy, though the practice would erode their humanity (especially some particular rituals). Giovanni aren't the only ones who make use of this type of sorcery, though... but other practitioners have different paths. Learning it outside of clan, though very rare, is not impossible. In this episode I know I said chances are close to zero, but your never know where the story leads characters in the World of Darkness :D
Since you are a fan of the Malkavian clan, I must tell you that I'm currently playing a Nosferatu Neonate who is in a mutual, second drink Blood-Bond with a Lunatic Neonate. Though it never even crossed my mind at the start of the chronicle, I'm currently hoping my Leper can learn Dementate from his lover, not because it's a useful discipline (since it would be of much more immediate use to increase Obfuscate or Potence), but because it makes sense with current events. He's been nurturing that bond quite a bit, trying to assist the exploration and understanding of her derangement, and in turn, she calmed him in his moments of rage and frustration, using Passion (level 1 Dementate), keeping him from succumbing to the Beast. Though their love is artificial (and the bond happened by accident... at first), they really help and care for one another, which is a true blessing for the Nosferatu, who barely had any humanity left in him after the embrace and his first nights as Kindred. She's probably what's kept him from going into Wassail.
Learning to dull his negative emotions and outbursts in absence of his lover, using Dementate, would really keep him from the ravages of the Beast, especially because he has great difficulty controlling his impulses during certain phases of the moon (Lunacy flaw) and is prone to flying into a frenzy when others enter his domain unannounced or lay a finger on his herd (Territorial flaw). This is, however, something I didn't even consider or expect at the start of the game: a Nossie with Dementate :P If it happens, it's going to be such an interesting experience. As expected, learning this discipline will bestow a derangement upon the Nosferatu, and I'm super excited to find out what it is. Hopefully, I'll find out soon :P But damn, I did not expect to experience any romance this chronicle, definitely not with a character who looks like a bald, noseless zombie with a Habsburg jaw and weeping sores all over his body.
Gotta love Malkavians! :D
@@theoldcountry damn, that sounds like an awesome chronicle. I have always thought though that the Nosferatu and Malkavian got along well, both make great spies for the camerilla in my opinion (with Nosferatu stealth and malkavian mind fuckery) and because if anyone can look past a nossies outside apperance and see whats inside I think it's the malks.
I hope that one day you tell us more of the tale of the trist of madness and ferocity.
Great video!!! I really love blood sorcery. Do you think demons can learn normal sorcery?
Well, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to 😁
Of course, I don't really recommend that a starting Demon character already have direct knowledge of such practices, but obtaining them throughout the course of the game can be very interesting to do, especially since they could teach their followers too 😈
I could have choose a better video to eat breakfast to... ;p
😳Yikes! I hope I didn't ruin it completely 😞
EDIT: Perhaps, in the future, I should warn people when practices of Necromancy are described 🤢
@@theoldcountry Nah, just jump straight into it. I should have known better. This is WoD we are talking here about, so this one is on me ;)
@@theoldcountry But why...? These phenomena are completely natural around Venice...
Personally i like the concept of blood sorcery but then again i despise that its just plain better than other disciplines.
Yeah, blood sorcery does tend to offer A LOT, doesn't it? Some paths could actively replace certain disciplines and make better versions of said disciplines, which is kind of sad 😔
@@theoldcountry
Not only better, its also cheaper!
@@jackmalin2528 Ah, another reason for me to hate the Tremere! This time, not even related to the lore and the horrible things they did, but the mechanics/rules themselves. Thaumaturgy secondary paths are super cheap! Good point!
Gah, I hate the Temere! 🤣