I want to apologize in advance for being such a poor Dan replacement. In my defense, Brandon didn't tell me about his bizarre gimmick for the episode until I was sitting down under the bright lights, and I'm not that good at improv.
Also the two of them seem to genuinely share certain mannerisms and ways of speaking. I guess that happens when you know someone for most of your life lol
What are you talking about? This is the most Dan Dan has ever been. Concentrated. Distilled. Put through the crucible. The quintessential platonic ideal of Dan.
I wanted to go into game dev for a while, but by the time I got into college I decided I wasn't interested in the work environment, and am pursuing a more general career with writing on the side. It feels good hearing from Ben that my choice was not unfounded.
This is one of the few podcasts I listen to that I actually prefer watching the video version of. There's something hypnotic about watching Brandon Sanderson sign title pages ad infinitum.
I was listening to this on Spotify, and that Dan impression at the beginning made me think he was still there but with a cold that messed with his voice 😂
I am an Isekai fan, Isekai just means "another world" in Japanese and as far as I know, the portal is the only requirement to belong to the genre, but is very often combined with progression fantasy and litRPG. I have to agree, as I'm 30 years old, live alone, and have a dead end job, so the escapism appeals to me. It is "turn your brain off" reading for me.
There’s definite appeal for anyone who just wants to feel appreciated and that their work, or rather their life, actually means something. They definitely weren’t reading much into the implications for the Japanese work culture, because I’m pretty sure that that’s exactly why those series get popular
There's an interesting divide between western and eastern "Portal Fantasy." Isekai almost never include the option or desire to go back to earth, while Western works usually include it as an underlying assumption. Think Narnia or Thomas Covenant (if I remember correctly. )
What I have a hard time grasping is the lit rpg element. Why is this so popular? I genuinely don't get the purpose when you could tell the story without all the stats. All it does is take me completely out of the narrative.
There is a story on Royal Road called A Hero Past The 25th about a woman whose dream it was to be isekai'ed from when she was young, and so she spends her life preparing for this to happen...and finally, after she has given up, it finally happens at age 39 and she is only teeny tiny bit bitter about the whole thing. The story as a whole is very good (there are 4 parts), and though the characters speak like an anime girl for the first bit it clears up and they talk normally pretty quick.
lit RPG is power fantasy that is easy to write. numbers go up, yay! It's something that appeals to people who like min maxing and the numbers make it easier to do that. Like all genres, there are some authors who do really well with it, and some who don't. Most successful lit rpg stories see their use of the blue stat boxes reduce substantially (ie down by 95%) once the character is past the intro phase and it mostly becomes story after that
@Stuugie I feel like there's enough limitations for it to be considered good. It's not Subaru actively abusing it, he doesn't know how it works, and he also kinda has to die to activate it.
@@absolootdisaster1060 Re: Zero is one of my favorite fantasy series ever. It is rare for me to rank LN's among my western fantasy favorites (cause they tend to suffer in world building and or storytelling) but Re: Zero, Ascendence of a Bookworm and Mushoku Tensei all fit in there
Just so you know (for anyone that reads this) in the slime story Brandon is talking about, eventually he does start running into real conflicts/problems that are not easy for him to solve, it just takes a little while to get there. So what he was saying about overcoming conflict being necessary for a successful story is still true, and the reason the series is as popular as it is is due to the fact that later on, the story is good at juggling multiple conflicts that are not easy to solve.
It’s so inspiring to see that Dan has gone through such a radical spell of self improvement in a matter of days. It’s like he’s a totally different (better) person. I hope he keeps up the work! This is the type of joke Dan would make, and Brandon would think is a little mean.
I will say most isekai have the wish fulfillment aspect to them that makes it hard to necessarily relate personally to the struggles unless you are in that specific position already. Two ones that are actually good/different that I think Brandon would like! One being Re:Zero, which starts off a bit like a regular wish fulfillment isekai and that quickly branches off by its reset mechanic (and actually having the main character confront the uncomfortable parts of himself). The other is Ascendance of a Bookworm, which is literally about a bookworm who dies and goes to a world without books and her quest to actually read and acquire some. I think that would be the fantasy portal protagonist most relatable to him lol
I usually find it hard to stay with most isekai for the same reasons you list, Brandon, but there is one title I think deserves some recognition: Ascendance of a Bookworm (Honzuki no Gekokujō) Short synopsis: Adult Bookworm dies and wakes up in a world where everyone is illiterate and there are no books anywhere (except in homes of nobility), so she makes it her mission to bring literacy and books to everyone! There’s a lot more to it but I don’t want to spoil. It’s not like your typical isekai with a level progression system or game-like mechanics. It’s a bit more realistic, which is why it stuck out to me. You can read the story in light novel or manga form, and it’s also been animated. Thanks for taking the time to read this :D
This was excellent! As much as I love Dan, Ben was a fantastic guest and I would love to see him on again. Having all three of you, without a time limit, would lead to some amazing conversations I'm sure!
I love these for my workout. Nerd out for my work out 💪🏻. Thank you for dedication to this podcast. I have learned a lot about how busy you are and I appreciate you working this in the schedule. I hope you enjoy your trip to Hawaii.
One of the core facets of Slime and similar “slice of life” isekai and manga/anime in general seems to be just advancement by being nice and the power to back it up. I’m curious what that taps into, but I can imagine a lot of soulless jobs that are just managing people and extracting from them in a necessarily detached manner would feel just demoralizing.
Sees the title of Brandon and (Definitely) Dan. Think it's most likely Ben. Checked thumbnail for video start - of course it is XD This was amazing and love to hear Definitely Dan's perspective on things. I was giggling like a child at the beginning - best Dan fill-in, ever.
It never occurred to me that programmers should get royalties, it makes total sense. Oh I think I read that one, farmer with the magical tool one (not the best to be honest, it has a diary writing style), this is more like the 2nd (maybe 3rd) wave, the 1st wave is more like shield hero and mushoku tensei. Also, I became a slime and re:monsters (is a little rote) but falls in the 1st wave of isekai that turned into monsters.
In response to what Brandon said at 15:30 As a current engineering student with a, uh, strong socialist bent, I think it's a lot of not wanting to be thought of as "union workers". It carries a strong connotation of working class, hard labor, repetitive tasks, etc. etc. and they want to be perceived as above them. "We're middle class. We don't need unions to help us. We got here ourselves. Union leaders are worse than bosses. [etc.]" Plus most tech jobs came around after the Reagan administration/red scare, which was when labor power was severely kneecapped and demonized ("you don't want to be a socialist do you?"). (also, we've forgotten what peaceful protests are for and we're just waiting (not even politely asking) for corporations to kindly hand over things they've systematically stripped away from us. Make of that statement what you will.) There's definitely more to it, but UA-cam comments really aren't a good place for nuanced discussion lmao. (btw all those quotes: paraphrased from things my parents, both of whom are engineers working in tech, have said) Edit: 28:20 Oh no. Brandon no XD
As a software engineer, a lot of us get paid well enough that we don't care about ownership. Those that do care start or join worker co-operatives, something I plan on doing in the next five years.
I like how they touched upon isekai and progression fantasy at 28:00. As someone who has played games since I can remember, I really love the game elements of progression fantasy and isekai. I especially like how in those genres you can actually see them progress and get stronger, e.g., gaining levels, mastering new spells and empowering them.
@@WasatchWind Yeah I can see that, there's also an issue where they use way too many numbers. But the reason I like the stats is becasue it gives an idea of how powerful they get, and its not just a feeling.
I'd love to hear you talk more about progression fantasy and books series like Cradle and Mother of Learning that are some of the staples of the genre.
An interesting thing is that he used litRPG and Progression Fantasy interchangeably. LitRPG is Progression, but often books like Cradle and Mother of Learning are considered Progression, but not litRPG. I think one could argue that Stormlight is a (longer, slower-paced) Progression Fantasy.
Brandon is quite right about progression fantasies / LitRPG / portal fantasies having tons and tons of easy wish fullfillment. That is not so say that there are only these ones around. There are also ones around that have a very good and more traditional story under their hood. You just might have to look a bit. Take the book series "Threadbare - Stuff and Nonsense" and it's spin-offs for example. That's a story about a Golemancer who experiments with toys in his quest to create a sentient Golem. Unbeknownst to him he succeeds and creates the main character - Threadbare - a sentient but extremely young teddy bear golem that is gifted to the daughter of the golemancer. A daughter who proceeds to playfully explore the world with her new best friend. At least until that dreadful day when she get's kidnapped and a small teddy bear golem has to grow up fast to safe his little girl from danger. So you see, there are also more traditional stories without wish fullfillment in that genre that might be more gripping for someone else. But still they can be quite different from standardized fantasy since the mere presence of a gaming system can change so much about the world that it get's mind boggling.
Some isekai recommendations that are a step above: For actual story and character depth, Mushoku Tensei. It's the most brutal in how flawed the main character is, and how unforgiving the new world is. The emotional arcs feel earned, no freebies. NSFW. For something that breaks the mold, The Saga of Tanya the Evil. You couldn't get further from "tired businessman wants to be a farmer". Instead it's an insane ride through an alternate world war, seen by an angry, vengeful main character. For a reversal of the tropes, Re:Creators is a reverse isekai, in which a bunch of fictional characters from different stories are brought to our world, meet their authors, and cause a ruckus. Also, great music. For the love of books, Ascendance of a Bookworm. Instead of having a bevy of easily-acquired superpowers, she's reborn as a sick little girl from a poor family with no advantages at all.
I was trembling with anticipation hoping he'd close with "how's that, Dan?" and the satisfaction of that conclusion was akin to that of a Sanderson novel
The problem with shares for an engineer, that started drying up after the tech bust in the early 2000s. I haven't had a job where stock options were part of the compensation package. And, even if it were, those software developers / engineers were removed from a project or let go days before release, especially after 4 - 6 months of 80hr crunch weeks. So they'd have to sell the stock back and wouldn't get any benefit from the sacrificing time and health. (I'm specifically thinking of the games industry. Which is why I don't work for the games industry.)
The reason I like overpowered characters like the slime and overlord is because when you’re beat down so much it’s nice to have a protagonist that’s unstoppable. It can be boring, but I have enough downs in my life that I want to be the strong character for once.
I was not expecting Brandon to talk about isekai and manga (although it doesn't sound like he read the light novels?). I understand why he wouldn't jam with them based on his character conflicts statement. Taking the example of Slime, the really popular ones that have that power fantasy trope I see less as character studies that you may find in novels, but in world conflict. My favorite parts of an isekai are how does the world look and how will the character evolve that world. Slime starts off very focused on one village turning into a city until Rimuru has to deal with world politics. I think these type of characters have world arcs than personal arcs. Since the critique was character, I think The NPCs in this Village Sim Game Must be Real (a volume novels series) would be a good start. It uses the genre in an interesting way to help the main character get over a trauma he suffered years prior.
It's nice to see how many people mentioned Ascend of the Bookworm and Re:Zero, both my personal peak Iseakais. And speaking of manga on BS channel, I must recommend "Witch Hat Atelier". It has great magic system, which could be described as codding on the paper and beautiful art.
Anime, and manga in particular, often chases a kind of literal "fantasy" -- you want to be in that world. Many western properties do the same thing (Harry Potter and most of Brandon's books come to mind.) If you can achieve a longing in the reader's minds, you've succeeded.
I can empathize with Ben, games are a terrible industry to work in. As someone who went through 3 studio shutdowns and just saw the volatility and lack of ownership or progress within companies, I can't believe people are still willing to make them without sweeping changes to publishing, workload, and payrate. As a strange bit of coincidence, one of studios I worked was where I learned about and read Mistborn because we tried to put together a prototype for a Mistborn game that Brandon wrote the story for. I fell in love with the books, and then the project was cancelled by our publisher and the studio was shut down :(
I work in video games. I wrote and self-published my own book in 2022 and was surprised at how easy it was compared to my day job. And it _wasn't_ easy. Getting folks to buy it is a different story.
Re:Zero and Mushoku Tensei and Konosuba are some of the most highly regarded isekais btw Re zero is particularly incredible. Definitely it isn't so much a power fantasy as most, the characters suffer a lot all the time. Basically the main character whenever he dies loops back to a defined (but not chosen) point in his past and has to relive those days between his respawn time and death, trying to save the people he cares about with basically no other notable powers. It's gruesome and intense. Incredibly good too
I'm a software engineer who likes to write. I someday hope to be a writer who likes to software engineer, but if it never happens, I'll be content. I enjoy both.
I hadn't realized that Mistborn was put out the same time as Hunger Games. . .as someone who waited for Hunger Games to come out. . .I'm so mad it took me several more years to discover Brandon. . .but I also wasn't looking in the 'adult' Sci/fi section at the time.
Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman is a recent favorite LitRPG series I've really enjoyed. Also The Completionist Chronicles and Divine Dungeon Series by Dakota Krout.
I am firmly of the opinion that the reason litRPG (and progression fantasy) are becoming so popular in indy publishing is because the format of leveling up forces less skilled authors to use a very simple but effective form of promise progress and payoff from your class. combine that with how tropy the genre is and making some easy inside jokes for your target audience and you have a simple formula that is hard to mess up. to be clear I love the genre and I dont say this to bash people. I just think that is why it works so well.
I am the same age as you two, 4 days younger than Brandon. I too went to a programming camp at BYU. Makes me wonder if it was the same one that Dan and Ben went to.
You being a writer, I really wonder what you would think of Re:Creators. It is basically a reverse Isekai where movie/game/manga/novel characters get tranported into our world. From their perspective, they are in a land of gods and a place where they can meet their creators. So the writers become anything from father figures to bitter enemies to these fictional characters. While watching the show, I chuckled at one point when thinking how Kaladin and Kelsier would smack Brandon for writing the hardship in their lives. Meanwhile his fridge would be robbed by Lift and other valuables exchanged for junk by Wayne. It is an interesting story concept that explores the what if scenarion of interactions between creators and creations.
I love the Reincarnated as a Slime manga. And honestly, I couldn’t entirely say why. It’s fun. It’s different. It does manage to achieve tension by having the side characters to do things without Rimuru being around. There are stakes, they’re just different than the traditional ones.
@@gordo6908 I was thinking the same thing. Rimuru is a silly overpowered archetypal character. It’s fun watching him go ham, but the interesting parts of the story all happen in his wake.
I think it's an enjoyable story, it's just not a good one by conventional standards. It's basically a slice of life equivalent of isekai. There is not conflict, no writing that actually makes you think or look for deeper meaning. It's just one of those "cool people doing cool things" stories.
@@absolootdisaster1060 They add conflict later. The main character steamrolls everything early on but eventually starts facing things on or above their power scale with actual dangers involved. It just takes a while.
Isekai's have sort of turned into the genre that you describe where its explicitly be hit by a bus and reborn into and RPG game... because that's where the big hits a few years ago started so everyone copied them and its super easy to crank those out once you have the title gimmick. But Isekai mostly just means "transported to another world". Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, Narnia, and Peter Pan are all classic literature examples of Isekai. Anime and manga had other things like Escaflowne and Magic Knights Rayearth, Twelve Kingdoms that played it a lot more straight and were just one example every few years before the modern trend overtook everything and became inescapable.
book called savage dominion is kinda like that. dude dies on a date in a shrine or something. gets picked and reborn as a "diety" on another world. then has litrpg elements
I guess people limit themselves too much. I'll be turning 62 this year. I'm still finding new bands I like. Some are hard to get into for me (Muse), some I really (so far) only like (or know) one song (RUSH). Some I have every album they ever put out (Alan Parsons [& Project]). Some have only a few albums out (Nothing More) and some I just hear a song and decide I like it and that's it. However, that doesn't mean I only like the music since the 60s. I like classical, I like almost every genre of music except "country western" which really doesn't exist like it used to. It morphed into country and soft rock. I also dislike Disco (not dance music per se, just not what was billed as disco when the disco fad hit and then faded away... now there are some claiming it's just dance music... to which I say "Disco Sucks"). The rest of it I mostly like. Including some rap/hip hop. Widen your interest folks. It keeps you young(er).
Plot twist, Ben is an accomplished writer under a fake name, and he's currently working on his magnum opus: a tell-all exposé on the dirty details of Brandon's life that have never been revealed before
I'm reading an "isekai" novel now and I'm having a similar issue that Brandon is talking about. The MC is (unknowingly) a super ultra master level dude, he has depths of power and ability that dwarf everyone around him by orders of magnitude. He wants to just chill on a farm and have a nice life, and that's great. But any issue that's brought up I know is just gonna be solved by him showing up and being all "huh, that's weird that these guys are trying to destroy my farm. Welp, guess they were super weak because me and my farm animals beat them" completely not realizing that his farm animals wipe the floor with everyone, because they get such a power boost by nature of being HIS farm animals. It's not a poorly written book, and it has it's moments. Most of the stakes come from the other, minor characters though. (It's Beware of Chicken if anyone is curious. Again, not bad, just kinda low stakes and thus a lot of the book doesn't seem to matter a whole lot, it's just stuff that happens)
Speaking of Brandon fans in the UK Dragonsteel... any progress on getting Bastille vs the Evil librarians on e-book over here... has that issue been resolved?
Brandon, i know it's over 1000 chapters but if you ever get a chance to slowly make your way through One Piece. Its one of the best stories ever told. Hands down.
Something could be the best thing in the world, hands down, everybody accepts it... But if it's THAT long, it seems VERY unlikely Brandon is going to dedicate that much time to it. His version of taking breaks is writing other books. He has to especially schedule time to play his favorite video game series ever, because he can't quite bring himself to "waste" that much time. But maybe you'll be surprised.
Brandons' been reading the same novel, by one of his friends, since November. And had to schedule time to play a video game in his favorite series. I agree he'd like One Piece, but he'll never have time for it. Maybe when he retires in 25 years. When that happens One Piece will only have five more years to go!
So, I think we witnessed an actual food heist in this episode. Ben, pretending to be Dan, stole snacks from upstairs and pretended like it was a low-effort attempt at doing a food heist. Brandon said you can't steal from upstairs, since you are an employee. Therefore Ben, gets away free with the snacks with no one the wiser. Top tier food heist, get in, impersonate employee, steal stuff, be told it is ok, and walk away with the goods. 10/10, no notes
If you want a good Isekai to watch or read closer your style of progression and development in charatchers I recommend "mushoku tensei: jobless reincarnation". The dub is pretty good if and personally I prefer since it easier to know the switch of other world languages. Highly recommend :)
I want to apologize in advance for being such a poor Dan replacement. In my defense, Brandon didn't tell me about his bizarre gimmick for the episode until I was sitting down under the bright lights, and I'm not that good at improv.
You nailed the Dan impression in that opening line, though!
I think you did a great job, especially put on the spot!
It was fantastic. You made just as many tangents as Dan
Lol he wanted you to RP as Dan but then kept asking questions that Ben needed to answer. I'm blaming the BrandoSando for that one.
You did great Dan
That was...unironically...a pretty great Dan impression at the start.
Seriously. Threw me for a loop, for real. I was watching and I still thought that that might have been an edit of Dan's voice
Thanks. I've known him for over 25 years, so I've had to listen to him talk A LOT.
It didn’t sound like Dan but it sounded like Dan doing an impression of himself if that makes any sense.
It totally was 🤣 you can tell he has known him for ages AND watches every episode hahaha
Also the two of them seem to genuinely share certain mannerisms and ways of speaking. I guess that happens when you know someone for most of your life lol
Man, Dan is such a good role player, it’s like he’s a whole new person!
What are you talking about? This is the most Dan Dan has ever been. Concentrated. Distilled. Put through the crucible. The quintessential platonic ideal of Dan.
That's a pretty cool Ben costume, too.
As a programmer it’s great to hear Ben’s take on Dan’s take on Ben’s take on the programming industry
You're this close to infinite recursion right now.
I wanted to go into game dev for a while, but by the time I got into college I decided I wasn't interested in the work environment, and am pursuing a more general career with writing on the side. It feels good hearing from Ben that my choice was not unfounded.
Ben... pretending to be Dan... pretending to be Ben. Perfect
This is one of the few podcasts I listen to that I actually prefer watching the video version of. There's something hypnotic about watching Brandon Sanderson sign title pages ad infinitum.
Listeners, a year ago: We came from Brandon. Who is Dan?
Listeners today: ZOMG! I hope Dan is okay! We love him!
I was listening to this on Spotify, and that Dan impression at the beginning made me think he was still there but with a cold that messed with his voice 😂
Ben was fantastic. Brandon's luck doesn't come from his successful book series, it comes from the people he has surrounded himself with.
I am an Isekai fan, Isekai just means "another world" in Japanese and as far as I know, the portal is the only requirement to belong to the genre, but is very often combined with progression fantasy and litRPG. I have to agree, as I'm 30 years old, live alone, and have a dead end job, so the escapism appeals to me. It is "turn your brain off" reading for me.
There’s definite appeal for anyone who just wants to feel appreciated and that their work, or rather their life, actually means something. They definitely weren’t reading much into the implications for the Japanese work culture, because I’m pretty sure that that’s exactly why those series get popular
There's an interesting divide between western and eastern "Portal Fantasy." Isekai almost never include the option or desire to go back to earth, while Western works usually include it as an underlying assumption. Think Narnia or Thomas Covenant (if I remember correctly. )
What I have a hard time grasping is the lit rpg element. Why is this so popular? I genuinely don't get the purpose when you could tell the story without all the stats. All it does is take me completely out of the narrative.
There is a story on Royal Road called A Hero Past The 25th about a woman whose dream it was to be isekai'ed from when she was young, and so she spends her life preparing for this to happen...and finally, after she has given up, it finally happens at age 39 and she is only teeny tiny bit bitter about the whole thing. The story as a whole is very good (there are 4 parts), and though the characters speak like an anime girl for the first bit it clears up and they talk normally pretty quick.
lit RPG is power fantasy that is easy to write. numbers go up, yay! It's something that appeals to people who like min maxing and the numbers make it easier to do that. Like all genres, there are some authors who do really well with it, and some who don't. Most successful lit rpg stories see their use of the blue stat boxes reduce substantially (ie down by 95%) once the character is past the intro phase and it mostly becomes story after that
As far as isekai, I think Brandon would enjoy Ascendance of a Bookworm, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons.
Certainly fans of Brandon’s books would!
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks this, Bookworm is really good and Brandon would love it (he should read the LN)
I think he'd appreciate re zero honestly, unless that particular use of time travel bothers him like most time travel does lol
@Stuugie I feel like there's enough limitations for it to be considered good. It's not Subaru actively abusing it, he doesn't know how it works, and he also kinda has to die to activate it.
@@absolootdisaster1060 Re: Zero is one of my favorite fantasy series ever. It is rare for me to rank LN's among my western fantasy favorites (cause they tend to suffer in world building and or storytelling) but Re: Zero, Ascendence of a Bookworm and Mushoku Tensei all fit in there
Just so you know (for anyone that reads this) in the slime story Brandon is talking about, eventually he does start running into real conflicts/problems that are not easy for him to solve, it just takes a little while to get there. So what he was saying about overcoming conflict being necessary for a successful story is still true, and the reason the series is as popular as it is is due to the fact that later on, the story is good at juggling multiple conflicts that are not easy to solve.
Ben may be a tired old man, but he's such a good sport. As a programmer nearing my own middle age, I'm glad to have representation for my people ;)
It’s so inspiring to see that Dan has gone through such a radical spell of self improvement in a matter of days. It’s like he’s a totally different (better) person. I hope he keeps up the work!
This is the type of joke Dan would make, and Brandon would think is a little mean.
Dan feels more Dan than ever in this episode
I will say most isekai have the wish fulfillment aspect to them that makes it hard to necessarily relate personally to the struggles unless you are in that specific position already. Two ones that are actually good/different that I think Brandon would like! One being Re:Zero, which starts off a bit like a regular wish fulfillment isekai and that quickly branches off by its reset mechanic (and actually having the main character confront the uncomfortable parts of himself). The other is Ascendance of a Bookworm, which is literally about a bookworm who dies and goes to a world without books and her quest to actually read and acquire some. I think that would be the fantasy portal protagonist most relatable to him lol
Ben pretending to be Dan pretending to be Ben... makes sense.
I usually find it hard to stay with most isekai for the same reasons you list, Brandon, but there is one title I think deserves some recognition: Ascendance of a Bookworm (Honzuki no Gekokujō)
Short synopsis: Adult Bookworm dies and wakes up in a world where everyone is illiterate and there are no books anywhere (except in homes of nobility), so she makes it her mission to bring literacy and books to everyone! There’s a lot more to it but I don’t want to spoil.
It’s not like your typical isekai with a level progression system or game-like mechanics. It’s a bit more realistic, which is why it stuck out to me. You can read the story in light novel or manga form, and it’s also been animated.
Thanks for taking the time to read this :D
This was excellent! As much as I love Dan, Ben was a fantastic guest and I would love to see him on again. Having all three of you, without a time limit, would lead to some amazing conversations I'm sure!
I love these for my workout. Nerd out for my work out 💪🏻. Thank you for dedication to this podcast. I have learned a lot about how busy you are and I appreciate you working this in the schedule. I hope you enjoy your trip to Hawaii.
One of the core facets of Slime and similar “slice of life” isekai and manga/anime in general seems to be just advancement by being nice and the power to back it up. I’m curious what that taps into, but I can imagine a lot of soulless jobs that are just managing people and extracting from them in a necessarily detached manner would feel just demoralizing.
Sees the title of Brandon and (Definitely) Dan.
Think it's most likely Ben.
Checked thumbnail for video start - of course it is XD
This was amazing and love to hear Definitely Dan's perspective on things.
I was giggling like a child at the beginning - best Dan fill-in, ever.
This will go down as the greatest episode in history.
There's something off about Dan, but i cant put my finger on what...
...wait
There's no lukewarm Coke!!
I'm loving the new look, Dan! The old look is still great though. Either way, great to see Ben again.
Wow I would love to hear Ben (I’m sorry, Dan!) riff about Dragonlance!
Mm. I love the commitment to the bit. That was great, Dan!
As a programming that writes fiction as a hobby I loved this episode ^^ ❤
It never occurred to me that programmers should get royalties, it makes total sense.
Oh I think I read that one, farmer with the magical tool one (not the best to be honest, it has a diary writing style), this is more like the 2nd (maybe 3rd) wave, the 1st wave is more like shield hero and mushoku tensei. Also, I became a slime and re:monsters (is a little rote) but falls in the 1st wave of isekai that turned into monsters.
Oh man, as a LitRPG writer, it's wild to hear someone big in the SF/F community mention the genre!
As a comp sci major who also reads/"writes" fantasy, I really like this episode.
"when you and dan got married.."
they are work husbands now, kind of
Isekai is fantasy where the character is from earth then travels to another world
In response to what Brandon said at 15:30
As a current engineering student with a, uh, strong socialist bent, I think it's a lot of not wanting to be thought of as "union workers". It carries a strong connotation of working class, hard labor, repetitive tasks, etc. etc. and they want to be perceived as above them. "We're middle class. We don't need unions to help us. We got here ourselves. Union leaders are worse than bosses. [etc.]" Plus most tech jobs came around after the Reagan administration/red scare, which was when labor power was severely kneecapped and demonized ("you don't want to be a socialist do you?").
(also, we've forgotten what peaceful protests are for and we're just waiting (not even politely asking) for corporations to kindly hand over things they've systematically stripped away from us. Make of that statement what you will.)
There's definitely more to it, but UA-cam comments really aren't a good place for nuanced discussion lmao. (btw all those quotes: paraphrased from things my parents, both of whom are engineers working in tech, have said)
Edit: 28:20 Oh no. Brandon no XD
As a software engineer, a lot of us get paid well enough that we don't care about ownership. Those that do care start or join worker co-operatives, something I plan on doing in the next five years.
I like how they touched upon isekai and progression fantasy at 28:00. As someone who has played games since I can remember, I really love the game elements of progression fantasy and isekai. I especially like how in those genres you can actually see them progress and get stronger, e.g., gaining levels, mastering new spells and empowering them.
I get that people like the progression, but I don't get the statistics being included. It just kinda takes me out of the story personally.
@@WasatchWind Yeah I can see that, there's also an issue where they use way too many numbers. But the reason I like the stats is becasue it gives an idea of how powerful they get, and its not just a feeling.
That ending was exactly what I wanted, and I got it. Promises and payoffs.
0:10 that dan impression was spot on
I'd love to hear you talk more about progression fantasy and books series like Cradle and Mother of Learning that are some of the staples of the genre.
An interesting thing is that he used litRPG and Progression Fantasy interchangeably. LitRPG is Progression, but often books like Cradle and Mother of Learning are considered Progression, but not litRPG. I think one could argue that Stormlight is a (longer, slower-paced) Progression Fantasy.
On the Isekai discussion, Konosuba is a parody of Isekai tropes while also being heartfelt. The most popular is definitely Sword Art Online.
SAO is also one of the most divisive, in addition to not fitting the usual definition of isekai, though.
Brandon is quite right about progression fantasies / LitRPG / portal fantasies having tons and tons of easy wish fullfillment. That is not so say that there are only these ones around. There are also ones around that have a very good and more traditional story under their hood. You just might have to look a bit.
Take the book series "Threadbare - Stuff and Nonsense" and it's spin-offs for example. That's a story about a Golemancer who experiments with toys in his quest to create a sentient Golem. Unbeknownst to him he succeeds and creates the main character - Threadbare - a sentient but extremely young teddy bear golem that is gifted to the daughter of the golemancer. A daughter who proceeds to playfully explore the world with her new best friend. At least until that dreadful day when she get's kidnapped and a small teddy bear golem has to grow up fast to safe his little girl from danger.
So you see, there are also more traditional stories without wish fullfillment in that genre that might be more gripping for someone else. But still they can be quite different from standardized fantasy since the mere presence of a gaming system can change so much about the world that it get's mind boggling.
In Japan the fantasy inspiration is typically coming from the Basic line (B/X and BECMI) of DND and the Mystara campaign setting.
He even stole food.
Some isekai recommendations that are a step above:
For actual story and character depth, Mushoku Tensei. It's the most brutal in how flawed the main character is, and how unforgiving the new world is. The emotional arcs feel earned, no freebies. NSFW.
For something that breaks the mold, The Saga of Tanya the Evil. You couldn't get further from "tired businessman wants to be a farmer". Instead it's an insane ride through an alternate world war, seen by an angry, vengeful main character.
For a reversal of the tropes, Re:Creators is a reverse isekai, in which a bunch of fictional characters from different stories are brought to our world, meet their authors, and cause a ruckus. Also, great music.
For the love of books, Ascendance of a Bookworm. Instead of having a bevy of easily-acquired superpowers, she's reborn as a sick little girl from a poor family with no advantages at all.
I was trembling with anticipation hoping he'd close with "how's that, Dan?" and the satisfaction of that conclusion was akin to that of a Sanderson novel
The problem with shares for an engineer, that started drying up after the tech bust in the early 2000s. I haven't had a job where stock options were part of the compensation package. And, even if it were, those software developers / engineers were removed from a project or let go days before release, especially after 4 - 6 months of 80hr crunch weeks. So they'd have to sell the stock back and wouldn't get any benefit from the sacrificing time and health. (I'm specifically thinking of the games industry. Which is why I don't work for the games industry.)
Ben is great! You should have him on more often!
The reason I like overpowered characters like the slime and overlord is because when you’re beat down so much it’s nice to have a protagonist that’s unstoppable. It can be boring, but I have enough downs in my life that I want to be the strong character for once.
I was not expecting Brandon to talk about isekai and manga (although it doesn't sound like he read the light novels?).
I understand why he wouldn't jam with them based on his character conflicts statement. Taking the example of Slime, the really popular ones that have that power fantasy trope I see less as character studies that you may find in novels, but in world conflict. My favorite parts of an isekai are how does the world look and how will the character evolve that world. Slime starts off very focused on one village turning into a city until Rimuru has to deal with world politics. I think these type of characters have world arcs than personal arcs.
Since the critique was character, I think The NPCs in this Village Sim Game Must be Real (a volume novels series) would be a good start. It uses the genre in an interesting way to help the main character get over a trauma he suffered years prior.
As a programmer, yes Brandon's writing is very much like programming.
It's nice to see how many people mentioned Ascend of the Bookworm and Re:Zero, both my personal peak Iseakais.
And speaking of manga on BS channel, I must recommend "Witch Hat Atelier". It has great magic system, which could be described as codding on the paper and beautiful art.
Anime, and manga in particular, often chases a kind of literal "fantasy" -- you want to be in that world. Many western properties do the same thing (Harry Potter and most of Brandon's books come to mind.) If you can achieve a longing in the reader's minds, you've succeeded.
That snack disappointment. What a sad end to a good food heist.
The discussion on isekai was great. The lack of tryfail cycles bothered me but i still read them because it's fun.
Awesome. Great to get to know Ben … I mean „Dan“ a little.
Chili Peppers are funk rock. They are just too unique to not give them that class.
Yep, I should have remembered, thanks!
I can empathize with Ben, games are a terrible industry to work in. As someone who went through 3 studio shutdowns and just saw the volatility and lack of ownership or progress within companies, I can't believe people are still willing to make them without sweeping changes to publishing, workload, and payrate.
As a strange bit of coincidence, one of studios I worked was where I learned about and read Mistborn because we tried to put together a prototype for a Mistborn game that Brandon wrote the story for. I fell in love with the books, and then the project was cancelled by our publisher and the studio was shut down :(
*Dan
why would Ben be on this Podcast?
I work in video games. I wrote and self-published my own book in 2022 and was surprised at how easy it was compared to my day job. And it _wasn't_ easy. Getting folks to buy it is a different story.
Re:Zero and Mushoku Tensei and Konosuba are some of the most highly regarded isekais btw
Re zero is particularly incredible. Definitely it isn't so much a power fantasy as most, the characters suffer a lot all the time. Basically the main character whenever he dies loops back to a defined (but not chosen) point in his past and has to relive those days between his respawn time and death, trying to save the people he cares about with basically no other notable powers. It's gruesome and intense. Incredibly good too
"Two of"... you listed 3 buddy 🤣
You wait until the Solo Leveling anime drops my guy, that's gonna be incredible!
@@adoniscreed4031 I edited the comment a few times lol so whoops
Love the new haircut, Dan!
I'm a software engineer who likes to write. I someday hope to be a writer who likes to software engineer, but if it never happens, I'll be content. I enjoy both.
It's not always a portal; it's usually a truck.
I hadn't realized that Mistborn was put out the same time as Hunger Games. . .as someone who waited for Hunger Games to come out. . .I'm so mad it took me several more years to discover Brandon. . .but I also wasn't looking in the 'adult' Sci/fi section at the time.
Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman is a recent favorite LitRPG series I've really enjoyed. Also The Completionist Chronicles and Divine Dungeon Series by Dakota Krout.
We have reached peak Dan.
Show us the snacks! What delectable delights are provided for Dragonsteel employees.
A very crumpled sad Snickers it seems. That he then put back in the bag!
holy shit this is so good and i'm only 20 seconds in.
I am firmly of the opinion that the reason litRPG (and progression fantasy) are becoming so popular in indy publishing is because the format of leveling up forces less skilled authors to use a very simple but effective form of promise progress and payoff from your class. combine that with how tropy the genre is and making some easy inside jokes for your target audience and you have a simple formula that is hard to mess up.
to be clear I love the genre and I dont say this to bash people. I just think that is why it works so well.
Damn! I bought the same CD as my first coming in the long box just to get that Blaze of Glory song. Thought I was younger than Brandon lol
Dan was great as usual.
Sando knows what Konosuba is? Colour me impressed!
I am supprised he didn't mention ascendance of a bookworm.
First albums I ever bought with my own money were the soundtracks for Ghostbusters and Back to the Future!
I am the same age as you two, 4 days younger than Brandon. I too went to a programming camp at BYU. Makes me wonder if it was the same one that Dan and Ben went to.
You being a writer, I really wonder what you would think of Re:Creators. It is basically a reverse Isekai where movie/game/manga/novel characters get tranported into our world. From their perspective, they are in a land of gods and a place where they can meet their creators. So the writers become anything from father figures to bitter enemies to these fictional characters.
While watching the show, I chuckled at one point when thinking how Kaladin and Kelsier would smack Brandon for writing the hardship in their lives. Meanwhile his fridge would be robbed by Lift and other valuables exchanged for junk by Wayne.
It is an interesting story concept that explores the what if scenarion of interactions between creators and creations.
The royalties for developers discussion is close to arriving at the means of production belong in the hand of the worker 😁😉
I too am comfortable in 90° 100% humidity
Dan’s seems nice but I miss Dan. Dan brings a genuine spark of joy into my life.
Funk rock. The chili peppers played funk rock when they came out. It’s gotten pretty far away from that early sound though.
Thank you! I blame the camera and bright lights for making my brain freeze up a bit.
Flea still brings the funk, but yeah, it's a different sort of band now genre wise.
Ben was too good at playing Dan. This was fantastic
I love the Reincarnated as a Slime manga. And honestly, I couldn’t entirely say why. It’s fun. It’s different. It does manage to achieve tension by having the side characters to do things without Rimuru being around. There are stakes, they’re just different than the traditional ones.
maybe its tenuous, but it doesnt seem too dissimilar to gilgamesh or even superman/007
@@gordo6908 I was thinking the same thing. Rimuru is a silly overpowered archetypal character. It’s fun watching him go ham, but the interesting parts of the story all happen in his wake.
I think it's an enjoyable story, it's just not a good one by conventional standards. It's basically a slice of life equivalent of isekai. There is not conflict, no writing that actually makes you think or look for deeper meaning. It's just one of those "cool people doing cool things" stories.
@@absolootdisaster1060 They add conflict later. The main character steamrolls everything early on but eventually starts facing things on or above their power scale with actual dangers involved. It just takes a while.
Isekai's have sort of turned into the genre that you describe where its explicitly be hit by a bus and reborn into and RPG game... because that's where the big hits a few years ago started so everyone copied them and its super easy to crank those out once you have the title gimmick.
But Isekai mostly just means "transported to another world". Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, Narnia, and Peter Pan are all classic literature examples of Isekai.
Anime and manga had other things like Escaflowne and Magic Knights Rayearth, Twelve Kingdoms that played it a lot more straight and were just one example every few years before the modern trend overtook everything and became inescapable.
"I love you guys in the UK"
Wooooooo!
Definitely not Ben in this episode reminded me of my uncle Greg. Which I did not expect 😅
How long until Brandon needs a full-time programmer at dragonsteel?
I was not prepared for brandon sanderson to talk about isekai
Ben and Dan are actually both dead and Brandon has been hanging out with MeLaan the whole time
They really dropped that whole "I'm Dan" thing like a third of the way through
book called savage dominion is kinda like that. dude dies on a date in a shrine or something. gets picked and reborn as a "diety" on another world. then has litrpg elements
I guess people limit themselves too much. I'll be turning 62 this year. I'm still finding new bands I like. Some are hard to get into for me (Muse), some I really (so far) only like (or know) one song (RUSH). Some I have every album they ever put out (Alan Parsons [& Project]). Some have only a few albums out (Nothing More) and some I just hear a song and decide I like it and that's it. However, that doesn't mean I only like the music since the 60s. I like classical, I like almost every genre of music except "country western" which really doesn't exist like it used to. It morphed into country and soft rock. I also dislike Disco (not dance music per se, just not what was billed as disco when the disco fad hit and then faded away... now there are some claiming it's just dance music... to which I say "Disco Sucks"). The rest of it I mostly like. Including some rap/hip hop.
Widen your interest folks. It keeps you young(er).
Plot twist, Ben is an accomplished writer under a fake name, and he's currently working on his magnum opus: a tell-all exposé on the dirty details of Brandon's life that have never been revealed before
I'm reading an "isekai" novel now and I'm having a similar issue that Brandon is talking about. The MC is (unknowingly) a super ultra master level dude, he has depths of power and ability that dwarf everyone around him by orders of magnitude. He wants to just chill on a farm and have a nice life, and that's great. But any issue that's brought up I know is just gonna be solved by him showing up and being all "huh, that's weird that these guys are trying to destroy my farm. Welp, guess they were super weak because me and my farm animals beat them" completely not realizing that his farm animals wipe the floor with everyone, because they get such a power boost by nature of being HIS farm animals.
It's not a poorly written book, and it has it's moments. Most of the stakes come from the other, minor characters though.
(It's Beware of Chicken if anyone is curious. Again, not bad, just kinda low stakes and thus a lot of the book doesn't seem to matter a whole lot, it's just stuff that happens)
Sounds just like Dan!
Speaking of Brandon fans in the UK Dragonsteel... any progress on getting Bastille vs the Evil librarians on e-book over here... has that issue been resolved?
Brandon, i know it's over 1000 chapters but if you ever get a chance to slowly make your way through One Piece. Its one of the best stories ever told. Hands down.
Something could be the best thing in the world, hands down, everybody accepts it... But if it's THAT long, it seems VERY unlikely Brandon is going to dedicate that much time to it. His version of taking breaks is writing other books.
He has to especially schedule time to play his favorite video game series ever, because he can't quite bring himself to "waste" that much time.
But maybe you'll be surprised.
@Aaron Anderson Oh i know it's a pipe dream, but figured id throw it out there
Brandons' been reading the same novel, by one of his friends, since November. And had to schedule time to play a video game in his favorite series.
I agree he'd like One Piece, but he'll never have time for it.
Maybe when he retires in 25 years. When that happens One Piece will only have five more years to go!
As someone in Corpus Christi…it’s still oppressively hot in the summer.
So, I think we witnessed an actual food heist in this episode. Ben, pretending to be Dan, stole snacks from upstairs and pretended like it was a low-effort attempt at doing a food heist. Brandon said you can't steal from upstairs, since you are an employee. Therefore Ben, gets away free with the snacks with no one the wiser. Top tier food heist, get in, impersonate employee, steal stuff, be told it is ok, and walk away with the goods. 10/10, no notes
I wonder if some day maybe you could bring a picture of your friend group during college
I hope Brandonds read ascendance of booksworm he would like it!
If you want a good Isekai to watch or read closer your style of progression and development in charatchers I recommend "mushoku tensei: jobless reincarnation".
The dub is pretty good if and personally I prefer since it easier to know the switch of other world languages. Highly recommend :)