yes you can have a lot of fun with coils and surprisingly shock yourself even if you only make around with 3.3 v ^^ (making my own partyshock thingis ^^)
I was looking into making wooden (or 3d printed) geared clocks electronic pendulum driven. Bought some cheap pendulums online, but i may try to make a simple one based on this design with his improvements!
@@Reach3DPrinters I think a more careful choice of wording is required. I/we should have somewhere a battery powered electric pendulum clock - and I have a modern quartz electronic pendulum clock (who doesn't, nowadays ?)
@@Reach3DPrinters I came across a device that converted old grandfather clocks to radio locked accuracy. It did this without significant interference with the valuable clock mechanism and without making physical contact to the clock mechanism. The Pendulum, or rather a small metal extension, was allowed to swing in the gap between the poles of a coil. The pulsed current in the coil was used to retard the swing where necessary to adjust its accuracy of the swing. The coil current being controlled by an accurate oscillator linked the a radio locked clock. In this case the pendulum period was measured using an optical sensor. I suspect there may have been veriations on this design that attached a magnet to the pendulum, and used this to both control the speed and sense the pendulum natural period.
The center hub of that pendulum toy looks to me like a ship's wheel. I must've been looking at it too long, now I'm thinking back to the Netscape Navigator icon.
I like how you asked for a more base level oscilloscope as it shows how useful even those ones can be. Even when the super high end ones will do it better, good enough is good enough.
Well its funny how many people are laser-focused on buying the most complicated equipment possible. I think they're just bench queens looking to blow cash and don't actually use it.
The best scope I ever had was a Philips 50MHz two channel analogue scope. Very easy to use and lasted decades and I bought it second hand so who knows how old it was when it finally carked it.,
My old boss in the lab where I worked used to say that the world and his wife wants an oscilloscope but very few know how to use one to advantage. In those days, oscilloscopes had thermionic valves inside. These days the modern digitals have far too many buttons to push and knobs to twiddle for the basic enthusiast.
@@peterjameson321 Not only that but if you're looking at very small signals they are crap. For anything under about 500uV a valve scope is much better.
I've got a "top secret" which uses the same sort of coil plus one transistor (not surface mount). It uses a 9V square battery and keeps a small spinning top spinning for days. You have to start the top spinning by hand, but once it's going it doesn't stop until the battery runs down. The top has a small bar magnet embedded crosswise inside. As one pole of the magnet approaches the coil it switches the transistor which then applies a small nudge to the magnet -so accelerating the spinning top.
@@Anvilshock I mentioned Bedini motor because the spinning top mentioned is a form of this motor. The Bedini motor may be popular with perpetual motion machine enthusiasts but it's not going to give free energy.
Yeah, that's a very nice move of them. One reason why I haven't bought mine of them is because I wanted one that's fully running together with the computer. Sadly they don't have these. Instead I bought a picoscope for that. It's tiny, has a nice software and it's very affordable
keysight is the original Hewlett-Packard, minus the high-profit side businesses of making computers and pharmacology equipment (those businesses got to keep the old names in the divorce).
A great explanation as always but; you actually massively oversimplified the device by missing the power saving feedback loop. A naive analysis like this would have us believe that the device runs until the pulsing has eventually drained the battery. However, the device actually employs an additional, and quite elegant feedback loop integral to the gimbal axis. Within several days of operation, these devices enable power saving mode with a progressively louder squeaking sound, which triggers nearby humans to cease its motion, and end the pulse train long before it drains the battery.
Clive, the voltage between the quick repeating pulses is equal to the forward voltage of your flyback diode. Once the field has collapsed the voltage quickly approaches zero again. You get retriggering because the magnet is still moving over the coil... Hence the slower the swinging, the more retriggering you are getting... The period between the bursts of pulses equals to the time the magnet is away from the coil.. It would be even more interesting to see the trace of the knee of the last pulse of the burst.. As the magnet above has passed, the energy in the field is only that is generated by the coil and it can only be dissipated by the coil and circuit and not passed to the pendulum......
Really enjoyed this episode. I'd love to see you bring out the oscilloscope more often, seeing one used by informed hands really helped visualise that circuit.
That ringing is the hysteresis of the coil due to the magnetic moment. The metal rod (core) is temporarily magnetized by the external permanent magnet and Degaussing occurs. when the magnetic coil is energized. This effect is known as magnetic Remanence.
And learn something. After almost 8 years of old Big Clive, ok I think I learned something, which is what I've been doing for 8 years... Thanks Mate. Always a pleasure.
The scrap price of the copper in the transformer is worth more than the rest of the board. The diode would add less than a penny to the production cost.
It brings me joy when UA-cam shows me something new on an oscilloscope screen. I hope, your oscilloscope will make more guest appearances. But only for special occasions, where it takes at least 5 minutes to explain the waveform. So, only use it for complicated stuff. Never just show your scope off by displaying a simple sine wave on it.
I absolutely love all of your videos, you always crack me up :D It just goes to show your integrity though, your handling of the situation with the oscilloscope. You're awesome, mate. Keep up the good work :D
Using the scope really helps to see what you're talking about. Would be nice to see that on a PCM dimmer, switched mode charger and that telly (assuming it breaks again)
Wow, Clive, you got a lot of people interested in the O scope. Maybe you should do an informal series on how to read what you see on an O scope? I enjoyed your explanations of the European electrical system immensely and I think you have similar opportunity for O scope education.
Thank the Gods. A new Big Clive viddy. Been sleepless for about 30hrs. his soothing voice will help. If I ever needed a ‘custom computer voice’ I’d want it to be his.
And it's just a single coil with no feedback winding connected to a mysterious IC under a blob of black resin. I'd love to get my hands on some ICs designed to do that. -Many applications for electronics tinkerers like me. I ripped a dancing flower apart and made a simple 0.5Hz pendulum from it. It's been swinging for two years so far on a single alkaline AA cell!
I got one of these pendulems years ago as a present with a shuttle and planet on the inner ring (2 ring pendulem, pp3 battery) and guessed at the internals being an electric magnet to induce the movement. I was wrong as your video shows me that the magnet creates the switch as I thought it just ran all the time kind of thing but cool to actually see it. After watching your introduction to soldering kits (2 flashing blue led kits), you gave me the confidence to hack mine to use the 9v of difference between the 3.3 and 12v rails of my desktop to feed 9v to it because I keep forgetting to buy the batteries when I'm out !! Yes, im a forgetful/cheap/bodger kind of numpty, but thank you for your videos.
Hi Mr. Clive, I wish you could make a series of videos about a treadmill. That would be very beneficial to understand lots of concepts about DC and AC motors and their control circuitry and Micro controllers and display and ... By the way you are one of the best and my most favorite thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with people like me for free.
This video should be shown to Physics/EE students. You do a better job than most professors or practical labs at explaining what's going on and why a diode makes a difference.
So glad I have the NHS which is too thick to implement this kind of thing anyway. Seriously, Health Insurers want to track all your steps? I imagine they will also be tracking GPS too so I now have the idea for a GPS and step spoofer for mobile phones purely for the USA market.
@@Drew-Dastardly Last I heard, there are hundreds of people suing the NHS for refusal of service, not to mention refusing service on ideological grounds, and putting guards on babies to stop them from getting treatment abroad.
I had a "Mystery Top" with that same base and circuit in the early 80's. the top spun and when it crossed the center, above the coil, it got a little boost. it could literally spin for 8 or 10 hours. the top had a magnet and looked like a chrome UFO
I like Keysight. They have a good attitude toward education and hobbyists. They are the spun-off test equipment division of Hewlett-Packard from before HP decided to be a printer company. Back in the day, HP and Tektronix dominated the high end equipment market. Both made excellent products if you could afford them!
I have one of those Kundo clocks you mentioned. It was hard to regulate so I added a chip from a cheap analog (1 tick/sec) clock to the pendulum circuit. One output from the chip pulses once per 2 secs and the other output also pulses once per 2 seconds but is offset from the 1st by 1 sec. I used only 1 of the outputs to trigger the pendulum circuit which oscillates 90 times per minute (3 pulses per 2 seconds). In effect, the analog clock chip triggers the pendulum circuit once per 3 pendulum swings. The clock keeps much better time but still drifts slightly over long periods (weeks).
My mother in law is obsessed with the solar powered window gizmo version of this circuit, she keeps buying them at the dollar store. My kids window shelves are filled with them, and on a sunny day you can hear them clacking away from pretty much anywhere in the house.
I'm glad Keysight provided you a scope, showing us the waveforms elevates the discussion making theory more understandable. Now you can have teardowns with schematics and scope waveforms with possible smoke and flames! It's a whole new experience! I think Keysight was so cool to give you a scope! As most may already know: Keysight used to be Agilent, and before that it was HP... I was present for part of that history: in the mid 90's I worked at HP as a firmware engineer in their Test and Measurement, California-based Semiconductor Test Division (Santa Clara) and was present when HP became Agilent in June 2000... I still have some of the cool collectables that were handed out to the employees on that day.
The delay before the big negative spike is probably because the transistor is saturated. No matter how negative the base goes, it is still flooded with charge carriers left from the saturated phase, so it takes some time for the transistor to shut off. Only when it shuts off can the inductor generate the large voltage spike. With the diode in place, that bump in the waveform isn't because the magnet has started to approach the coil; that happened before the first pulse. It is because the induction from the (still) moving magnet manages to overcome the voltage generated by the coil, whose current is now going through the diode and slowly decreasing. I'm not entirely sure if all this electrical action is happening as the magnet approaches the coil (which is generating a net attractive field) or as it passes the center point and is moving away from the coil (which is generating a net repulsive field) though I suspect it is the latter. It is certainly not doing both because the polarity induced by the moving magnet would only be correct either before or after passing center.
Loved this one Clive, please do more videos where you use the scope, that's one of the reasons I love Mr Carlson's Lab. Graphic representation really helps me too learn.
That slow ramp at 12:10 after you put the diode on was the energy in the inductance dying away to the point where it no longer forward biased the flyback diode.
That waveform for that coil does not look weird to me because working on cars with a o-scope, you see this same waveform for the ignition coil charging before the spark and discharging after it has sparked. s19539.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/0-secondary-scope-2-001.jpg This is what I see when looking at the event described above.
The small negative spike at 10:10 is the electrons rushing to fill the holes in the transistor semiconductor. This is what drives it to turn off. Then there is the famous current tail, as all the holes are starting to get filled up. Then the transistor stops conducting completely and there is nothing to stop the energy in the inductance from creating a huge negative voltage spike.
Excellent video, Clive. I am surprised that that little transistor survived such high reverse voltage spikes. It would have been such a simple modification for the manufacturer to include. I am putting a number of relays onto a model railway. Needless to say each one has a reverse biased 1N4001 as a snubber. (I did wire one the wrong way round...)
I'm so happy to see you using a scope now. I love the channel and I love tinkering, and I got a Rigol DS1054Z not too long ago, but honestly I'm a noob and haven't gotten around to actually using it for anything. Hopefully I can pick something up from you!
My favorite application of this my prized old clock Kieninger & Obergfell Electronic Brass domed glass clock. Circa 1950's. Oh yeah, I'm circa 1950s too.
you need to do a pinball variant of this for the pinball groups. i completely understand this, but some people just know how to put into words. Thanks Clive.
I was always wondering how these things worked... I always saw them in shops, but we never had one at home. Amazingly simple. Also interesting how the same principle was then later used to drive those little moving solar-ornaments (like the moving flowers). That opens up the question: Could you convert the big one into a solar driven one by sticking solar panels onto the base? There would be a lot of room on there.
@@BigClive But you could start them manually, like you have to do with the battery powered one? How about keeping the battery compartment, change the batteries for NiMH and build a solar charge circuit - then it can literally run forever if it gets a bit of sunlight during the day, like on a window sill.
Clive, make a "stand" that will allow the oscilloscope rotate in 90° from bench view to camera view. That way you won't need to worry about it overheating if the vents are not covered when you gently caress it on it's back as per now. That made sense when I typed it so I shall have to read it tomorrow and see if it still makes sense after Ian Somnia finally goes home. 🤷♂️
Would it change how long it runs that would be an interesting question have two of them one with there is a diode on the coil and one without it and see which one runs the longest
50 Years dealing with electronics. At one time in the military and working on commercial communications gear for over 30 years. I don't have a damn proper O-scope. LOL I never purchased one simply because I always had access to the best of them. All I have at this time is a Hantek 6022BL PC Based USB scope to work on audio equipment.
Kit-Cat Klock works on the same principle. But I found that after the two C batteries got down to about 1.45V each the tail quits swinging. Takes only 3 to 4 months. The 1.45V C batteries still had a lot of energy in them. So I modified it. I built a circuit using a LT3459. Produces 3.3V until each battery drained well below 1V. Now the clock swings it's tail for a year or more on one set of batteries.
The principal for this was invented by a fellow Scott, Alexander Bain in the mid 19th century. He is also credited with inventing the fax machine. I have 3 Bulle clocks that use the idea, they where popular in the 1920s and came with a 10 year battery. John.
I reckon the slot is there to allow a bit of cooling for the transistor rather than have it on the board surface. When the pendulum swing is small, the transistor pulsing will increase markedly.
I saw a video of a guy who connected like 1000+ 9v batteries in series! he was able to create 10KV arcs that jumped a couple inches!!! edit... looks like it was 300 9v batteries... still, wild!
You can actually get a little tingle from AA and AAA, put the negative inside your lower lip and positive under your tongue. Surprisingly quick method to check for dead batteries.
@Max Rebo: You'd get more than a little tingle if you got that back EMF voltage from the circuit. Surprisingly enough when he zoomed in on the ringing it reminded me of the land line phone ring signal. It'll give you a surprisingly little zing!
Nice work Clive. You should think about setting up a couple of mirrors at various angels to get the Oscilloscope imagine into view while keeping it horizontal and out of the actual work / camera area. Likely two or three mirrors will allow you to reverse the image back to a left to right image. Could be worth playing with the idea.
If I'm understanding how the magnet interacts with the coil, the large back EMF was also creating a reverse magnetic pole, attracting and slowing the magnet as it was trying to get away from the coil .
Didn't think they made them for anyone but schools these days but would be an interesting thing to have & sit watching... better than itv or bbc on any night... Clocks go back this saturday night into sunday morning... maybe a picture of a clock would do for the livestream schedule tonight?
If you have a 80:1 turn ratio between the primary and sense/feedback coil, then that ~0.6V back-EMF diode on the primary coil would be ~48V back-EMF on Vbe (could be lower due to leakage and coil resistance) so you either need another diode in series with the base to offload the back-EMF stress or in anti-parallel across the ENTIRE coil instead of only the primary.
HP instrumentation ==> Agilent ==> Keysight. Whew! My HP tube type 200AB still makes a beautiful sinewave. Classic analog circuit with a light bulb in the feedback loop.
I had one of those devices years ago and replaced the battery with a wall wart. After about a year it failed because the plastic rubbing at either end had dug a groove and the magnet part was lower so it touched the bottom instead of just getting close. I guess I could have added some epoxy or something to replace the missing plastic to fix it but by that point I was over the device. Some lubricant in there probably would have prolonged the life a lot.
I like the idea of abusing the back EMF for strobing LEDs, would make the unit look more interesting in a darkened room :) I used a back EMF diode on my doorbell when I converted it to run off a 9v adaptor. I noticed when the bell button was pushed you could get quite a pulsing of the bell ( its a ding - dong 2 chime type with a hammer in a coil ). I also noticed arcing over the button contacts so I used a Diode over the coil and a ceramic 1000v 100nF capacitor over the button contacts. This gave a very clean Ding on button push and Dong on button release :) I did abuse the EMF with a jumbo yellow LED fixed through the case but the modification I made stops the LED doing much now lol. The only reason I put the diode and cap in was because I was paranoid the back EMF would damage the wall adaptor in some way and to eliminate the arcing over the button contacts to extend its life.
Keysight definitely supports the UA-cam community, and for good reason. The best ways to advertise are word-of-mouth and simple product placement. After all, if Keysight is good enough for Big Clive and Dave at EEVBlog, there's hundreds of thousands of people potentially seeing the product in use. You and Dave are not product shills; if it's crap, you'll tell us it's crap.
BC… You are one of the best if you add the reverse diode does the current draw on the battery increase …… if you add the LED does the current draw on the battery increase
Great. I really enjoyed the scope segment. I love scopes. The Keysight is small, has a clear and bright trace and is powerful for what it is. I keep trying to win a free Keysight. I go back to big honking Tectronix storage scopes, they were very cool at the time but before I turn into Mr. Carlson - I'LL say good show Clive. Hmm 8:30am, I'm up late again!
The one advantage of the older scopes is that they are easier to use with their direct access to limited functions. It took me a while to get used to a digital one.
Oh Clive you are a card ! a " Reticule " is a small women's handbag or purse ! and a " Reticle" is an optical grid used for scale !..easy to get mixed up..just made me giggle...but the scale you meant, that is on the scope is a 'Graticule'.........cheers ! oh my ! your 3v is tickling me!
Clive, Hope to be able to fill you in on your waveform with the diode. If you have a current sensor in the coil power lead, and watch the current, here is what you will see. 1 Transistor turns on. Current start near zero and ramps up. Voltage is the step to full voltage, but current ramps due to inductance. 2 With out diode, Transistor turns off, due to breakdown, transistor breaks down and substantial voltage and decay seen until the current is interrupted, which causes the spike followed by ringing. 2a With diode, Transistor turns off, Current continues to flow in the coil, but due to the resistance and reverse voltage on the coil, the voltage is clamped at -0.7 Volts until the current drops to zero and this voltage falls to zero, then as the magnet is still passing, crosses zero and the transistor moves to step one. Note the time at -0.7 volts is a little over half the on time. Hope this helps understand the waveform. If you insert a small resistor in series with the coil primary, and clip the scope across the resistor to view the current, you will find that wave very interesting with the diode and without. Try inserting a 1 ohm resistor in series between the emitter and coil and clip a scope across that.
The Bedini motor uses the same principle to rotate a wheel (hardly any torque). In the Bedini motor the spiky back emf waveform is said to be good for rejuvenating lead-acid cells.
That back EMF might be strong enough to illuminate a neon bulb. Might be a interesting hack. I think it can be put in with the diode, so instead of clamping the spike it will use it to illuminate the bulb but still protects the transistor.
That's the best demo of the effect of a back EMF supression diode I've ever seen, Thanks Clive! :-D
agreed
Yup that was very nicely done.
I wouldn't mind seeing more videos of you deep diving into the world of electric pendulums!
yes you can have a lot of fun with coils and surprisingly shock yourself even if you only make around with 3.3 v ^^ (making my own partyshock thingis ^^)
I was looking into making wooden (or 3d printed) geared clocks electronic pendulum driven. Bought some cheap pendulums online, but i may try to make a simple one based on this design with his improvements!
@@Reach3DPrinters I think a more careful choice of wording is required. I/we should have somewhere a battery powered electric pendulum clock - and I have a modern quartz electronic pendulum clock (who doesn't, nowadays ?)
@@millomweb I didn't want to spend the $45 on the plans, but the circuit used in this design:
holzmechanik.de/wooden-clock-magica.html
@@Reach3DPrinters I came across a device that converted old grandfather clocks to radio locked accuracy. It did this without significant interference with the valuable clock mechanism and without making physical contact to the clock mechanism. The Pendulum, or rather a small metal extension, was allowed to swing in the gap between the poles of a coil. The pulsed current in the coil was used to retard the swing where necessary to adjust its accuracy of the swing. The coil current being controlled by an accurate oscillator linked the a radio locked clock. In this case the pendulum period was measured using an optical sensor.
I suspect there may have been veriations on this design that attached a magnet to the pendulum, and used this to both control the speed and sense the pendulum natural period.
The center hub of that pendulum toy looks to me like a ship's wheel.
I must've been looking at it too long, now I'm thinking back to the Netscape Navigator icon.
Really neat detail shown with the oscilloscope. That was unexpected.
Fascinating to see the waveform across the drive coil. Thanks for your description.
I like how you asked for a more base level oscilloscope as it shows how useful even those ones can be. Even when the super high end ones will do it better, good enough is good enough.
I have one of those with all the options enabled and it still comes close to $2k, so not exactly base level when it comes to price.
Well its funny how many people are laser-focused on buying the most complicated equipment possible. I think they're just bench queens looking to blow cash and don't actually use it.
The best scope I ever had was a Philips 50MHz two channel analogue scope. Very easy to use and lasted decades and I bought it second hand so who knows how old it was when it finally carked it.,
My old boss in the lab where I worked used to say that the world and his wife wants an oscilloscope but very few know how to use one to advantage. In those days, oscilloscopes had thermionic valves inside. These days the modern digitals have far too many buttons to push and knobs to twiddle for the basic enthusiast.
@@peterjameson321 Not only that but if you're looking at very small signals they are crap. For anything under about 500uV a valve scope is much better.
I've got a "top secret" which uses the same sort of coil plus one transistor (not surface mount). It uses a 9V square battery and keeps a small spinning top spinning for days. You have to start the top spinning by hand, but once it's going it doesn't stop until the battery runs down. The top has a small bar magnet embedded crosswise inside. As one pole of the magnet approaches the coil it switches the transistor which then applies a small nudge to the magnet -so accelerating the spinning top.
Search UA-cam for Bedini motor.
@@Anvilshock I mentioned Bedini motor because the spinning top mentioned is a form of this motor.
The Bedini motor may be popular with perpetual motion machine enthusiasts but it's not going to give free energy.
a rare occasion that clive gets out a scope!
You have a very close replica of the waveform of the secondary side of an ignition coil used on a waste spark system. Eric O would be proud.
I will definitely be checking out Keysight for my replacement scope...I am very glad they are supportive of hobbyists (and our pitiful budgets)!
Yeah, that's a very nice move of them. One reason why I haven't bought mine of them is because I wanted one that's fully running together with the computer. Sadly they don't have these. Instead I bought a picoscope for that. It's tiny, has a nice software and it's very affordable
keysight is the original Hewlett-Packard, minus the high-profit side businesses of making computers and pharmacology equipment (those businesses got to keep the old names in the divorce).
A great explanation as always but; you actually massively oversimplified the device by missing the power saving feedback loop. A naive analysis like this would have us believe that the device runs until the pulsing has eventually drained the battery. However, the device actually employs an additional, and quite elegant feedback loop integral to the gimbal axis. Within several days of operation, these devices enable power saving mode with a progressively louder squeaking sound, which triggers nearby humans to cease its motion, and end the pulse train long before it drains the battery.
Clive, the voltage between the quick repeating pulses is equal to the forward voltage of your flyback diode. Once the field has collapsed the voltage quickly approaches zero again. You get retriggering because the magnet is still moving over the coil... Hence the slower the swinging, the more retriggering you are getting... The period between the bursts of pulses equals to the time the magnet is away from the coil.. It would be even more interesting to see the trace of the knee of the last pulse of the burst.. As the magnet above has passed, the energy in the field is only that is generated by the coil and it can only be dissipated by the coil and circuit and not passed to the pendulum......
Really enjoyed this episode. I'd love to see you bring out the oscilloscope more often, seeing one used by informed hands really helped visualise that circuit.
That ringing is the hysteresis of the coil due to the magnetic moment. The metal rod (core) is temporarily magnetized by the external permanent magnet and Degaussing occurs. when the magnetic coil is energized. This effect is known as magnetic Remanence.
I love it when you bring out the oscilloscope
And learn something.
After almost 8 years of old Big Clive, ok
I think I learned something,
which is what I've been doing for 8 years...
Thanks Mate. Always a pleasure.
But that diode doubles the component cost for the board!
And if the transitor was less stressed by back EMF, it might last longer. Then you wouldn't need to buy a new one.
@@PeterGrant but then they'd make even less money lol
@@Scruffy545 precisely
The scrap price of the copper in the transformer is worth more than the rest of the board. The diode would add less than a penny to the production cost.
@@rayceeya8659 a penny is a huge amount of money when the wholesale value of the rest of the components is like 0.04p each
More sillyscope analysis please!
It brings me joy when UA-cam shows me something new on an oscilloscope screen. I hope, your oscilloscope will make more guest appearances. But only for special occasions, where it takes at least 5 minutes to explain the waveform. So, only use it for complicated stuff. Never just show your scope off by displaying a simple sine wave on it.
Check this channel out he creates entire scenes on them using different frequencies
ua-cam.com/users/jerobeamfenderson1
Don’t trust the link type in the search bar
“Oscilloscope music”
I absolutely love all of your videos, you always crack me up :D
It just goes to show your integrity though, your handling of the situation with the oscilloscope. You're awesome, mate. Keep up the good work :D
A ring of LEDs (powered by back EMF) mounted on base would give a nice strobe effect.
I would like to see the scope more, helps with when you are explaining in the scematic
Using the scope really helps to see what you're talking about. Would be nice to see that on a PCM dimmer, switched mode charger and that telly (assuming it breaks again)
Wow, Clive, you got a lot of people interested in the O scope. Maybe you should do an informal series on how to read what you see on an O scope? I enjoyed your explanations of the European electrical system immensely and I think you have similar opportunity for O scope education.
Thank the Gods.
A new Big Clive viddy.
Been sleepless for about 30hrs. his soothing voice will help.
If I ever needed a ‘custom computer voice’ I’d want it to be his.
Those little dancing flowers have a much smaller kicker coil. This one is quite substantial.
And it's just a single coil with no feedback winding connected to a mysterious IC under a blob of black resin. I'd love to get my hands on some ICs designed to do that. -Many applications for electronics tinkerers like me. I ripped a dancing flower apart and made a simple 0.5Hz pendulum from it. It's been swinging for two years so far on a single alkaline AA cell!
Last time I was this early the motion was merely intermittent.
Enjoyed that very much.
Would very much like more scoping of everyday electronics
thank you
Check and see if a AM radio detects the backlash EMF with and without the diode.
Check the ripple frequency on the scope before playing with amateur detection.
It's neat that such a simple mechanical device can produce such stable and precise waveforms.
I got one of these pendulems years ago as a present with a shuttle and planet on the inner ring (2 ring pendulem, pp3 battery) and guessed at the internals being an electric magnet to induce the movement. I was wrong as your video shows me that the magnet creates the switch as I thought it just ran all the time kind of thing but cool to actually see it. After watching your introduction to soldering kits (2 flashing blue led kits), you gave me the confidence to hack mine to use the 9v of difference between the 3.3 and 12v rails of my desktop to feed 9v to it because I keep forgetting to buy the batteries when I'm out !! Yes, im a forgetful/cheap/bodger kind of numpty, but thank you for your videos.
Hi Mr. Clive, I wish you could make a series of videos about a treadmill. That would be very beneficial to understand lots of concepts about DC and AC motors and their control circuitry and Micro controllers and display and ... By the way you are one of the best and my most favorite thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with people like me for free.
This video should be shown to Physics/EE students. You do a better job than most professors or practical labs at explaining what's going on and why a diode makes a difference.
Very interesting, thank you Big Clive and Keysight. Some more like this, although I can't think of what specifically, would be great.
the huge 80v spike was the free energy ;p
Lights or...a trickle charger...
Quick! Someone tell ElectroBOOM, he won't be able to deny it now.
These are being sold nowadays with a phone holder instead of an ornament to make health apps think you're walking to fool insurance lol
So glad I have the NHS which is too thick to implement this kind of thing anyway.
Seriously, Health Insurers want to track all your steps? I imagine they will also be tracking GPS too so I now have the idea for a GPS and step spoofer for mobile phones purely for the USA market.
@@Drew-Dastardly Last I heard, there are hundreds of people suing the NHS for refusal of service, not to mention refusing service on ideological grounds, and putting guards on babies to stop them from getting treatment abroad.
How does that fool geolocation meta data and gps data?...
And does the insurance require you to have emr emitting devices in close contact to your body 24/7?
I've never heard of insurance that obligates you to walk.
I had a "Mystery Top" with that same base and circuit in the early 80's. the top spun and when it crossed the center, above the coil, it got a little boost. it could literally spin for 8 or 10 hours. the top had a magnet and looked like a chrome UFO
This is why I come to this channel!
I like Keysight. They have a good attitude toward education and hobbyists. They are the spun-off test equipment division of Hewlett-Packard from before HP decided to be a printer company. Back in the day, HP and Tektronix dominated the high end equipment market. Both made excellent products if you could afford them!
I have one of those Kundo clocks you mentioned. It was hard to regulate so I added a chip from a cheap analog (1 tick/sec) clock to the pendulum circuit. One output from the chip pulses once per 2 secs and the other output also pulses once per 2 seconds but is offset from the 1st by 1 sec. I used only 1 of the outputs to trigger the pendulum circuit which oscillates 90 times per minute (3 pulses per 2 seconds). In effect, the analog clock chip triggers the pendulum circuit once per 3 pendulum swings. The clock keeps much better time but still drifts slightly over long periods (weeks).
My mother in law is obsessed with the solar powered window gizmo version of this circuit, she keeps buying them at the dollar store. My kids window shelves are filled with them, and on a sunny day you can hear them clacking away from pretty much anywhere in the house.
They are kinda collectable. I have quite a few.
I'm glad Keysight provided you a scope, showing us the waveforms elevates the discussion making theory more understandable. Now you can have teardowns with schematics and scope waveforms with possible smoke and flames! It's a whole new experience!
I think Keysight was so cool to give you a scope! As most may already know: Keysight used to be Agilent, and before that it was HP... I was present for part of that history: in the mid 90's I worked at HP as a firmware engineer in their Test and Measurement, California-based Semiconductor Test Division (Santa Clara) and was present when HP became Agilent in June 2000... I still have some of the cool collectables that were handed out to the employees on that day.
I love toys like this it would be great if you could do a DIY tutorial and possibly a competition who can make the most innovative one's
I had a thing of this concept when I was in my teens. It's really cool to see a teardown now to understand it better.
The delay before the big negative spike is probably because the transistor is saturated. No matter how negative the base goes, it is still flooded with charge carriers left from the saturated phase, so it takes some time for the transistor to shut off. Only when it shuts off can the inductor generate the large voltage spike.
With the diode in place, that bump in the waveform isn't because the magnet has started to approach the coil; that happened before the first pulse. It is because the induction from the (still) moving magnet manages to overcome the voltage generated by the coil, whose current is now going through the diode and slowly decreasing.
I'm not entirely sure if all this electrical action is happening as the magnet approaches the coil (which is generating a net attractive field) or as it passes the center point and is moving away from the coil (which is generating a net repulsive field) though I suspect it is the latter. It is certainly not doing both because the polarity induced by the moving magnet would only be correct either before or after passing center.
Its working principle can be used camera stabilizer during capture disturbed by wave movement, aircraft pitch, etc.
I was thinking you wasn't gonna show it on a scope and I would have to buy the ornament myself to have a look. And then out comes a scope, top man.
Loved this one Clive, please do more videos where you use the scope, that's one of the reasons I love Mr Carlson's Lab. Graphic representation really helps me too learn.
That slow ramp at 12:10 after you put the diode on was the energy in the inductance dying away to the point where it no longer forward biased the flyback diode.
That waveform for that coil does not look weird to me because working on cars with a o-scope, you see this same waveform for the ignition coil charging before the spark and discharging after it has sparked. s19539.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/0-secondary-scope-2-001.jpg This is what I see when looking at the event described above.
The oscilloscope inclusion was really, really interesting Clive. Please consider using it more often?
The small negative spike at 10:10 is the electrons rushing to fill the holes in the transistor semiconductor. This is what drives it to turn off. Then there is the famous current tail, as all the holes are starting to get filled up. Then the transistor stops conducting completely and there is nothing to stop the energy in the inductance from creating a huge negative voltage spike.
Excellent video, Clive. I am surprised that that little transistor survived such high reverse voltage spikes. It would have been such a simple modification for the manufacturer to include.
I am putting a number of relays onto a model railway. Needless to say each one has a reverse biased 1N4001 as a snubber. (I did wire one the wrong way round...)
I'm so happy to see you using a scope now. I love the channel and I love tinkering, and I got a Rigol DS1054Z not too long ago, but honestly I'm a noob and haven't gotten around to actually using it for anything. Hopefully I can pick something up from you!
My favorite application of this my prized old clock Kieninger & Obergfell Electronic Brass domed glass clock. Circa 1950's. Oh yeah, I'm circa 1950s too.
That's a very clever circuit. I think I'll build one of these at some point. Sounds like a fun project. Gotta do something weird with it, though...
I bet you could stick some magnets and coils on the inner loops too, get all sorts of crazy motion out of it.
you need to do a pinball variant of this for the pinball groups. i completely understand this, but some people just know how to put into words. Thanks Clive.
I was always wondering how these things worked... I always saw them in shops, but we never had one at home. Amazingly simple.
Also interesting how the same principle was then later used to drive those little moving solar-ornaments (like the moving flowers).
That opens up the question: Could you convert the big one into a solar driven one by sticking solar panels onto the base? There would be a lot of room on there.
The solar ones have a self starting feature that the older simple ones don't have.
@@BigClive But you could start them manually, like you have to do with the battery powered one? How about keeping the battery compartment, change the batteries for NiMH and build a solar charge circuit - then it can literally run forever if it gets a bit of sunlight during the day, like on a window sill.
@@Ranger_Kevin That could work.
@@Ranger_Kevin not forever... the sun has limited amount of energy, it'll burn out it a hasty 5 billion years. :)
@@Reach3DPrinters Touché... let's change that to "a really long time"
Remember when Cpl Hicks was playing with one of those ornaments in the breakfast scene in Aliens?
More to those than you think, while also being less. Nice.
Clive, make a "stand" that will allow the oscilloscope rotate in 90° from bench view to camera view. That way you won't need to worry about it overheating if the vents are not covered when you gently caress it on it's back as per now. That made sense when I typed it so I shall have to read it tomorrow and see if it still makes sense after Ian Somnia finally goes home. 🤷♂️
Would it change how long it runs that would be an interesting question have two of them one with there is a diode on the coil and one without it and see which one runs the longest
50 Years dealing with electronics. At one time in the military and working on commercial communications gear for over 30 years. I don't have a damn proper O-scope. LOL I never purchased one simply because I always had access to the best of them. All I have at this time is a Hantek 6022BL PC Based USB scope to work on audio equipment.
Kit-Cat Klock works on the same principle. But I found that after the two C batteries got down to about 1.45V each the tail quits swinging. Takes only 3 to 4 months. The 1.45V C batteries still had a lot of energy in them. So I modified it. I built a circuit using a LT3459. Produces 3.3V until each battery drained well below 1V. Now the clock swings it's tail for a year or more on one set of batteries.
Thanks for this video Clive. Really nice to see the scope out on this one.
The principal for this was invented by a fellow Scott, Alexander Bain in the mid 19th century. He is also credited with inventing the fax machine.
I have 3 Bulle clocks that use the idea, they where popular in the 1920s and came with a 10 year battery. John.
That reminds me of the little solar dancing flowers you stick to the dash of a car. They work on similar, albeit smaller, components.
I reckon the slot is there to allow a bit of cooling for the transistor rather than have it on the board surface. When the pendulum swing is small, the transistor pulsing will increase markedly.
You can't put easily put your tongue over the contacts of the AA's where as you could on the old 9v's. Tingly. 70's were better.
I saw a video of a guy who connected like 1000+ 9v batteries in series! he was able to create 10KV arcs that jumped a couple inches!!!
edit... looks like it was 300 9v batteries... still, wild!
@@Reach3DPrinters Clive responded to one of those videos nothing that it was potentially quite dangerous
You can actually get a little tingle from AA and AAA, put the negative inside your lower lip and positive under your tongue. Surprisingly quick method to check for dead batteries.
@Max Rebo: You'd get more than a little tingle if you got that back EMF voltage from the circuit. Surprisingly enough when he zoomed in on the ringing it reminded me of the land line phone ring signal. It'll give you a surprisingly little zing!
@@Kineth1 I'm guilty of throwing AAs in my mouth to check too, ha. (Though the bounce method is legit for those less into that.)
Nice work Clive. You should think about setting up a couple of mirrors at various angels to get the Oscilloscope imagine into view while keeping it horizontal and out of the actual work / camera area. Likely two or three mirrors will allow you to reverse the image back to a left to right image. Could be worth playing with the idea.
If I'm understanding how the magnet interacts with the coil, the large back EMF was also creating a reverse magnetic pole, attracting and slowing the magnet as it was trying to get away from the coil .
Didn't think they made them for anyone but schools these days but would be an interesting thing to have & sit watching... better than itv or bbc on any night...
Clocks go back this saturday night into sunday morning... maybe a picture of a clock would do for the livestream schedule tonight?
Well of course there had to be some LED's in there somewhere :-D
Would love to see more use of the oscilloscope. It gives a good visualization of what is going on 👍. Maybe you can put it up against a ebay diy kit. 🤔
Never thought a flyback diode could be that interesting, more with the scope please Clive. Thanks :)
Keysight makes awesome products. Made in Loveland, Colorado, USA and I live 10 miles north in Fort Collins, home of WWV.
The firing line you zoomed into the first time looks like the old electronic 12v ignition coil firing a plug on my old sun ignition diagnostic machine
If you have a 80:1 turn ratio between the primary and sense/feedback coil, then that ~0.6V back-EMF diode on the primary coil would be ~48V back-EMF on Vbe (could be lower due to leakage and coil resistance) so you either need another diode in series with the base to offload the back-EMF stress or in anti-parallel across the ENTIRE coil instead of only the primary.
keysight scope would be great for car electrics
Are they really that complex that you need it? You got OBD II for most cars these days.
@@johnpossum556 yes there are and obd really tells you fuck all
You really understand circuits and components.
HP instrumentation ==> Agilent ==> Keysight. Whew!
My HP tube type 200AB still makes a beautiful sinewave. Classic analog circuit with a light bulb in the feedback loop.
I had one of those devices years ago and replaced the battery with a wall wart. After about a year it failed because the plastic rubbing at either end had dug a groove and the magnet part was lower so it touched the bottom instead of just getting close. I guess I could have added some epoxy or something to replace the missing plastic to fix it but by that point I was over the device. Some lubricant in there probably would have prolonged the life a lot.
Very clear illustration, thanks!
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Set up a second camera for "oscilloscope vision", edit in later.
I don't really edit much.
@@BigClive how about a series of mirrors? :-)
@@BigClive Same, I know your pain. I avoide editing where possible.
Does the scope have a video out? You could get away with just an A/B switch.
@@TotallyNormal- Thats thinking outside the box! :)
I like the idea of abusing the back EMF for strobing LEDs, would make the unit look more interesting in a darkened room :)
I used a back EMF diode on my doorbell when I converted it to run off a 9v adaptor. I noticed when the bell button was pushed you could get quite a pulsing of the bell ( its a ding - dong 2 chime type with a hammer in a coil ). I also noticed arcing over the button contacts so I used a Diode over the coil and a ceramic 1000v 100nF capacitor over the button contacts. This gave a very clean Ding on button push and Dong on button release :) I did abuse the EMF with a jumbo yellow LED fixed through the case but the modification I made stops the LED doing much now lol. The only reason I put the diode and cap in was because I was paranoid the back EMF would damage the wall adaptor in some way and to eliminate the arcing over the button contacts to extend its life.
Its one of the Gravity Drive things from "Event Horizon." Be careful with that thing.
dang, that movie was terrifying!
Keysight definitely supports the UA-cam community, and for good reason. The best ways to advertise are word-of-mouth and simple product placement. After all, if Keysight is good enough for Big Clive and Dave at EEVBlog, there's hundreds of thousands of people potentially seeing the product in use. You and Dave are not product shills; if it's crap, you'll tell us it's crap.
BC… You are one of the best if you add the reverse diode does the current draw on the battery increase …… if you add the LED does the current draw on the battery increase
Great. I really enjoyed the scope segment. I love scopes. The Keysight is small, has a clear and bright trace and is powerful for what it is. I keep trying to win a free Keysight. I go back to big honking Tectronix storage scopes, they were very cool at the time but before I turn into Mr. Carlson - I'LL say good show Clive. Hmm 8:30am, I'm up late again!
The one advantage of the older scopes is that they are easier to use with their direct access to limited functions. It took me a while to get used to a digital one.
Loved one of these when I was a kid. Neat to know how it worked.
Oh Clive you are a card ! a " Reticule " is a small women's handbag or purse ! and a " Reticle" is an optical grid used for scale !..easy to get mixed up..just made me giggle...but the scale you meant, that is on the scope is a 'Graticule'.........cheers ! oh my ! your 3v is tickling me!
Thank you for being my late night binge and with all honesty, your channel soothes me to sleep.
Clive, Hope to be able to fill you in on your waveform with the diode. If you have a current sensor in the coil power lead, and watch the current, here is what you will see.
1 Transistor turns on. Current start near zero and ramps up. Voltage is the step to full voltage, but current ramps due to inductance.
2 With out diode, Transistor turns off, due to breakdown, transistor breaks down and substantial voltage and decay seen until the current is interrupted, which causes the spike followed by ringing.
2a With diode, Transistor turns off, Current continues to flow in the coil, but due to the resistance and reverse voltage on the coil, the voltage is clamped at -0.7 Volts until the current drops to zero and this voltage falls to zero, then as the magnet is still passing, crosses zero and the transistor moves to step one.
Note the time at -0.7 volts is a little over half the on time.
Hope this helps understand the waveform. If you insert a small resistor in series with the coil primary, and clip the scope across the resistor to view the current, you will find that wave very interesting with the diode and without. Try inserting a 1 ohm resistor in series between the emitter and coil and clip a scope across that.
The Bedini motor uses the same principle to rotate a wheel (hardly any torque).
In the Bedini motor the spiky back emf waveform is said to be good for rejuvenating lead-acid cells.
That back EMF might be strong enough to illuminate a neon bulb. Might be a interesting hack. I think it can be put in with the diode, so instead of clamping the spike it will use it to illuminate the bulb but still protects the transistor.
Very interesting 🧐🏴⚡️
I already wondered when the osci would come up again. A nice diversification once in a while.
Them things are cool and yeah i love the idea of you shearing lings :)