Porsche, Polestar,Kia, Hyundai and others use blended braking. Pressing the brake pedal slows the car through regen. More pressure on the pedal applies more regen until max regen is reached and then further brake pedal pressure applies friction brakes as needed. One pedal drive mode still blends friction brakes at low speed to bring the car to a complete stop even though you don’t use the brake pedal. I like to use i-pedal (one pedal) in city traffic in my EV6, but for highway driving I prefer a low regen setting for a smoother more comfortable drive. And if I need to brake, I’m still using regen.
That Sam missed this makes me wonder about the quality of his research going into his videos. The cool thing about good blended brakes is that you don‘t even notice when the mechanical brakes engage. One pedal braking is highly problematic as drivers don‘t intuitively slam on the brakes in emergency situations.
Porsche engineers are correct. But it's a bit like the ancient theologians debating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The difference is scarcely noticeable in any 50 miles of mixed terrain drive. Many YTubers have driven a fixed route using all driving modes and settings and report 0.1 miles per Kw difference. So it becomes purely a drivers preference on how they drive that matters. I choose a different style dependent on the situation. In town one pedal works best for me. Rural twisties I use the auto regen function. Open roads I coast. Motorways, auto cruise. But I would find using one pedal driving all the time quite annoying as I wouldn't be able to relax my foot at any time without unnecessary deceleration. And also using the zero regen coasting method all the time would soon become irritating. This is all about selecting what is appropriate and not being concerned about saving a few pennies in a car that you spent thousands on. Porsche is correct - technically - but the difference is not worth debating much. Just be aware that there isn't one method available to you on any one journey. And one of the best parts of driving an EV is to explore those options and learn new driving skills.
Completely agree, but I still wanted to explain WHY Porsche is right. In short, it comes down to the inefficiency of charging and discharging as well as DC to DC convention. Imagine you are driving behind a car that brakes hard-ish. 99% of all people will immediately pull their foot off the accelerator to prevent a collision. Chances are your car will brake excessively. Many times the leading car would start accelerating back but you would have recuperated more energy than you could've. The more energy you recuperate, the more you lose because of those inefficiencies. Add recovery acceleration after that and your losses increase even more. There are a couple of extra points that deserve making. First, these situations represent a small time of all driving, so their effect on overall efficiency is negligible. Second, if Porsche is claiming this, their round trip efficiency must be quite low. Tesla, for example, is known for the incredible improvement it did to the round-trip with plaid. Porsche could be 20% behind for all we know. So with Tesla, the effect is even more negligible.
@@gvaley Or in short. Every conversion of energy comes with a loss of energy. Even if it might be little. Converting electric energy into velocity comes with some loss of energy, and the reverse as well. So from a pure mathematical standpoint Porsche is correct.
It's really no different than old v8 Camano vs v6. The v6 had no power and could coast. The z28 slowed down when you let off the gas. My bolt has both. You can turn off single pedal mode. And it has a paddle for extra regen. So I still don't need to use the brakes much
All my best wishes for your wife and family. Porsche are correct on this. With 1 pedal driving you are either drawing current from the battery or sending current to the battery. When you coast you draw very little current from the battery while keeping most of the kinetic energy. The optimal thing would be to activate regeneration by pushing the brake pedal and transitioning to disk braking when needed. The hard part of that is to get the brakes to feel "normal" while being oblivious to whether regeneration or disk braking is occurring.
Personally id rather have a break pedal like a two stage trigger. Very little resistance for the regenerative breaking portion, higher resistance for the friction break portion. That way I could easily let off the gas to coast, engage max regenerative breaking without accidentally engaging friction breaking then engage friction breaking when necessary.
I cant imagine coasting to stop or scrub speed fast enough. The only time I need to 'coast' is when I want to scrub a wee bit of speed when I am coming up to other cars. I let up on the throttle a little and the car stops using energy and I coast a little. I just cant see where all this coasting is suppose to take place.. or did I miss the point? lol I might have.
it depends on the software algorithm. Regen is not perfectly efficient..there are losses. Of course, not using single pedal driving also uses regen. So in comparison with a driver who powers forward electrically and then coasts to a stop, using regen only at the end of the process, versus another driver is constantly on/off/on/off and alternating between powering forward and regen slowing, the first scenario is more efficient. But in real world driving and with well designed software, and without nonsensical driving patterns, single-pedal driving is not worse than coasting, because the single pedal software allows for coasting.
This means you have no idea about what you are writing. One pedal drive means the car is measuring how much you push the pedal and keep the speed if you just sit steady. When you rise the pedal, first is taking all the energy from the reverse loading, if you rise quick, the mechanical brakes act. Using 2 pedals is just forcing you to push the brake pedal, and you will ALWAYS brake more than strictly necessary (as one pedal drive does), just because you pushed the pads on brake disks... Really, VW paid you? I hate when I brake, because I brake on my money, I feel them burning on disks... One pedal drive makes people drive more relaxed, with lower cycles of acceleration - brakes, the typical driving cycles for angry people...
Bro, for BYD when you brake, you engage the regenerative braking. You can actually check out the wattage saved. The reason they do that is to make sure ppl coming from oil can adapt it easily.
@@MegaWilderness this is the way. If the driver wants to give up attention and driving responsibility: Ride an electric bus, and be free of guilt and responsiblities.
@@chrstphrr It's not necessarily the way as you put it. It was Tesla's poor method of implementing braking. To be properly and safely implemented a joy stick should be used to control steering, acceleration and braking.
@@chrstphrr It's not necessarily the way as you put it. It was Tesla's poor method of implementing braking. To be properly and safely implemented a joy stick should be used to control steering, acceleration and braking.
And driving style is also why Porsche made this choice. They sell sports cars, they estimate you will regularly drive fast, brake hard, etc. They don't want you to drive a Porsche with the intent of squeezing every bit of efficiency possible.
iirc Most non-Tesla EVs (as well as hybrids and plug-in hybrids) are set up so that when you use the brake pedal the car will preferentially activate regenerative braking first, and only switch to the friction brakes when you need to brake faster than the regenerative braking system is able to slow the car down. And whether you can change the regen braking strength or not, there will always be some level of pressure on the accelerator that will result in the car coasting, with acceleration happening if you press it further, and regen braking activating if you release the pedal more. So you can coast as much as you want to in one pedal driving mode, just by adjusting your pressure on the accelerator pedal, and you are still using regenerative braking for as much as the car is designed to be able to, when you use the regular brake pedal. So it mostly just boils down to individual preference for driving style. Anyone can achieve the exact same efficiency with either method if they want to. The only functional difference between the two modes is that brief window of time when you move your foot from the accelerator to the brake, when you'll be coasting or regen braking at whatever the car's default level is set to (or you're allowed to preset yourself), rather than controlling it entirely on your own volition in real time. Plus how good the car's specific operating software is at figuring out when is the most optimal moment to make the switch from regen braking to friction braking. As for the basic physics, coasting IS superior to regenerative braking because the recapture of kinetic energy into the battery can never be 100% efficient. So whatever range you recapture into the battery with regen braking, it will be less than the range the car could have traveled just by coasting for the same amount of time. Thus for any given distance wherein you need to stop at the end, if you can manage to coast the WHOLE way to the stop, with road friction slowing the car the whole time in which you need to decelerate, you will use less total energy than if you maintained a steady speed and then applied regenerative braking at the end to stop. The thing is, particularly in city driving, you CAN'T usually coast the whole way, because you have to maintain a certain speed to keep up with the flow of traffic, and there are forced stops at traffic lights and so forth. The theoretical most efficient way to drive is to accelerate for the minimum amount of time needed to reach and maintain the speed you need to reach, coast for as much as you can, and brake for the bare minimum needed to stop when you have to stop, and use to regenerative braking for 100% of that braking. But for most vehicles you can achieve this both with or without one-pedal braking. A particular driver may find it easier or harder to accomplish this with one driving mode versus the other, but that's an individual thing. Like if you're not great at controlling the accelerator in one-pedal mode, such that you have a tendency to release and start regen braking too early, you'll be less efficient in that mode, while if you're particuarly lead footed on the break such that you always activate the friction braking too soon, you'll be less efficient in THAT mode.
Regen braking should be tied to the brake pedal. A light push on brake pedal regen, hard push regen and hydraulic. Max coasting is key. Regen braking is for braking only. And you need to keep your braking reflex sharp for panic braking when it occurs. If you get too accustomed to one pedal for most braking I suspect your reaction time to hit the brakes will increase. Imo
Personally id rather have a break pedal like a two stage trigger. Very little resistance for the regenerative breaking portion, higher resistance for the friction break portion. That way I could easily let off the gas to coast, engage max regenerative breaking without accidentally engaging friction breaking then engage friction breaking when necessary.
That's exactly how my 8 year old VW E-Golf works. The fact that Tesla won't even provide the option defies my comprehension. It would just be a free over the air software update, so why not?
Porsche is absolutely correct on this one actually. It’s simple physics, but I guess it depends on how a person drives. People who don’t know how to drive think there are only two modes in a car, drive and brake. However, there are actually three modes while driving a car, drive, coast, and brake. One pedal driving removes the coasting option and replaces it with regen braking, which is much less efficient than coasting.
It doesn't remove coasting, you can easily coast by pressing the pedal sligtly. Only time you need to coast for long distances is on the highway, and we have smart cc as standard.
@@ogzombieblunt4626 It really boils down to how good you are at pressing the pedal by just the right amount to enable coasting. If you have a tendency to release prematurely you'll end up activating regen braking too soon and too much and get lower efficiency. In that case, being able to simply guarantee to coast by removing your foot from the accelerator entirely may be easier for you to manage. Preference, practice and how the car manufacturing designs the pedal feedback and feel obviously would affect this.
I had a Tesla model 3 for two years I’ve used one pedal driving and I’ve never had to replace my brakes. I had them checked and they said they were surprised at how much brakes were left for the mileage. I have a new model Y now and I love the one pedal driving.
Same is true on a Taycan, it uses brake blending - actuating the brakes on a Taycan activates regen up to the maximum amount possible before adding in mechanical brakes. The pads are almost never used. With a Tesla, if you touch the brake pedal you ARE using mechanical brakes.
I have an ICE car with 100k miles on it and I have the original brakes and last time they were inspected I was told I have plenty of brake pad left. I coast up to stop signs and light so that when I have to stop I need very little braking. I try to always be light on the brake pedal. When I do have to brake, like before a down hill corner, I hate the idea I'm wasting energy. I have a model Y LR on order and can't wait to use 1 pedal driving.
Sorry Viking but Porsche is 100% correct on this. I work on the development team for the manufacturer of heavy electric vehicles, if you are coasting you are using the vehicles kinetic energy to cover more ground and not use any energy from the battery, where as with one pedal driving you are always consuming energy from the batteries (unless under regen) My example and test subject weights just over 12tonne and regen is very effective and under normal driving conditions can bring the vehicle speed from 100 down to 3kph without application of the friction brakes and at present our operators are over 250,000kms on the original brake pads and rotors, if you want to discuss more I'd happily oblige😉
Driving style is important. I try to maintain a constant speed and plan far ahead avoiding stopping where possible. Coasting is great with n empty road but impractical in most traffic conditions. I therefore feel regen is a good compromise. As for brake wear, on one of my EV cars with 100,000km there is no noticeable pad or disc wear. I also have a gas car with almost 90,000km also with very little brake wear proving driving style is important. The majority of driving is in suburban roads.
I doubt most people even know what kinetic energy is. They are just used to the old primitive always on regen brakes and associated that with EVs for some reason I can’t understand.
I love the "not quite stop" method. Using purely regen to get down to walking speed and creeping up to hazards, Keeps you alert as you gameify the situation (using foundation brakes counts as a fail). Makes you safer - some dolt in a BMW is less likely to overtake an obviously moving vehicle than a stationary one. Saves energy - you don't have to "buy back" the 3mph from zero to get the vehicle moving every single time because you are looking further down the road to smooth out speed peaks and troughs.
The key to efficiency where one-pedal driving is concerned is to make sure to engage regen only in situations where you would normally apply braking. Coasting is more efficient to slow down the car where braking is not needed. The difficulty for most drivers who use one-pedal driving is they can't modulate the accelerator pedal perfectly to achieve this. In my experience, even when paying attention, I inadvertently let up off the accelerator and go into regen mode when I don't intend to slow down. Consequently, I wind up having to use battery energy to speed up again. In my Nissan Leaf, I find that for my driving habits ECO mode is most efficient. It offers only moderate regen. While this is less efficient when I need to slow down, it penalizes me less when I let up off the accelerator unintentionally. Overall, I personally get better efficiency in ECO on the Leaf.
When I had a (2019) Leaf, I didn't like how ECO and ePedal (or whatever that bumper toggle is called) felt. ECO just felt like it was stretching the lower end of the acceleration ("gas") pedal, so it wasn't as responsive. As I recall anyway, I never really used it after experimenting early on. The ePedal was far too aggressive in slowing down for the most part, but was nice that you could come to a complete stop with regen. So I settled on a kludgey method of coasting/slowing down on regular regen, then manually toggling the ePedal as a brake every time 😅. It was janky, but I did get much better efficiency than the EPA rating, typically.
I posted just about the same thing as you; then I read your post here. To make coasting easier, maybe EV makers could add a dynamic "dead spot" in the one pedal driving power curve as you lighten your foot.
Keeping my response simple, as a driving enthusiast and after owning a Y, I would not purchase an electric vehicle that does not have one pedal driving. Further, I think it offers an extra measure of safety in that the split second of slowing before your foot gets to the brake pedal in an emergency may make the difference in a positive outcome.
I think it s the opposite, one pedal break is more dangerous when you must react very fast - an emergency break (break very hard) as you don t have the foot on the break pedal yet while with Porsche design your foot is already on the break pedal if you need to press harder.
@@epnf7758 Not really an issue considering how good collision avoidance is on teslas. I had an instance where i was about to slam on the brakes and the tesla did it a split second earlier. Not really an issue.
@@epnf7758 One pedal driving does not mean you CAN'T use the brake pedal. My point was that while you are taking a split second moving your foot to the brake pedal the car has already begun slowing.
@@koryballs the whole VAG feature is born in the OLD emissions test labs - dedicated to reducing the very last gram of CO2 in order to placard it on the show room windscreen. Neither represented the world outside…….it remains only a theoretical victory. The true importance is represented by the length of the ‘features’ list…….ie; mine’s bigger than yours.
I'm an Automotive Engineer, I work on EV and PHEV calibration I agree customers should have the option of 1 pedal driving, from am marketing point of view. But the most efficient way to slow down is to coast, and loose speed as slowly as possible (Kenetic energy is king). With one pedal driving as soon as an EV slows down, it will regen on the motors yes, but there are losses involved in this process. The most efficent way to drive is to maintain as much kenetic energy as possible. You can simulate this with one pedal driving by keeping your foot on the pedal but it is more difficult, so most drivers (including myself) won't do it all the time. A lot of drivers enjoy the feeling of one pedal driving, so they will keep "motoring" foot on pedal for longer, then use the one pedal driving to slow down quickly. When you foot brake in a Taycan it will regen on the motor first (Just like one pedal driving in other EVs), and only when you really brake hard (or if there is a stability control intervention) will it use the vehicles foundation brakes. What Porsche is doing here is encouraging drivers to maintain there speed, to maintain kenetic energy, with most drivers it will result in less energy usage.
Of course, one pedal driving is more efficient than an average driver’s accelerator-and-brake driving style. However, a driver who thinks ahead and anticipates when to stop pressing the accelerator pedal and starts coasting, can achieve greater efficiency while enjoying the relaxing coasting.
The engineers at Porche must be rolling their eyes at the marketing doofus who shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how EVs function, since they coast just fine using one pedal driving. As an electrician, I can speak to one of the fundamental benefits of EVs: The electric Motor. EV motors can "freewheel" for coasting, and this does happen during one pedal driving. The one pedal driving software takes the input from the pedal and either sends power or draws power from the motor to maintain the desired speed. When accelerating or going up a hill it will use more power, then once up to speed it will reduce the power until it is just enough to maintain the desired speed. If driving down a steep enough slope or decelerating, the software then has the ability to choose the amount of power that it needs to take from the cars inertia and put it back into the batteries, AKA regenerative braking. The amount of regenerative braking goes from zero, or coasting, to the point of causing the wheels stop rotating. This allows the electric motor to fulfill the function of both motor and brakes in a single unit, and retain much of the energy that would normally be lost to friction heat during braking in ICEVs. The actual brake pads are only used if one has to stomp on the brakes during an emergency stop, and when the parking brake is engaged. The best part of one pedal driving is that if one needs to brake hard, the car is already slowing down by the time one moves ones foot from the throttle pedal to the brake pedal. My ex wife recently got a Chevy Bolt EV, and it has one pedal driving. She lets me drive it occasionally and it is a great pleasure to use, it just takes a little practice.
At best you can only recoup 70% of the energy through regen-braking. So coasting is better in cases where you want to coast. When you want to brake then regen-braking is of course more efficient. Applying regen-braking all the time will result in a loss of energy.
Porsche is completely correct and Sam is completely wrong. In fact, I wanted to patent one pedal driving even before I knew about Tesla's one pedal driving term. I realised that one pedal driving is not efficient because drivers misuse it. If you keep the accelerator pedal steady, you are actually coasting, but the moment you release it, regen is immediately engaged. No option to disengage regen. Regen is not efficient because it is energy conversion from mechanical to electrical and then to chemical. You lose up to 20% in total. One pedal driving encourages drivers to regen because it is tiring to keep our feet at the pedal. Once you regen, you lose speed rapidly, i.e. decelerates. Deceleration is also uncomfortable compared to coasting. Once you lose speed, you lose another 20% to covert from chemical to electrical and to mechanical, using normal drive. Not really 20%, should be just 10% because drive circuitry is more efficient than regen circuitry. I hope people understand these principles so that they can maximise the efficiency of EV. One pedal driving is convenient and safer, but is less efficient. I am still undecided on whether to promote one pedal driving because it incurs additional costs. Sam suggests one pedal driving as a worthwhile option but it involves additional costs that are not necessary. We should thank Porsche for raising this issue. As far as safety is concerned, cars should be equipped with active safety systems that can stop in an emergency.
Hi Sam, greetings from the U.K. There is no arguing the physics that regenerative braking is more energy efficient than friction braking. However, I think some confusion arises from the implementation of this. My BMW i3 has strong ‘one pedal driving’, I rarely need to use the brake pedal, but when I do, the mechanical brakes are engaged - the advantage of this is the driver knows what system they are using; lift off the accelerator and you are using regen, press the brake pedal and you are engaging the mechanical (friction) brakes. Some EV makes utilise a different system, where regen braking is activated via the brake pedal, which then transitions to friction braking if pressed harder. Personally I find the BMW i3 approach better I.e. one pedal driving, but I can see why some like the ‘hybrid’ approach to what the brake pedal does. Either way, the important thing is that as much retardation is provided by regeneration as possible, and that friction braking is reserved for necessity only.
I drove my Tesla Model Y to the top of a mountain in South East Queensland, Mount Springbrook, top is 330m or in the old language, 1000 feet from top to bottom. At the top the battery charge was 40%, drove down with one pedal driving, watched the battery charge go from 40% to 45%. You only need to use the brake pedal rarely, if at all, to slow down or cruise down a mountain descent you generally only need to release the drive pedal to regenerate energy back into the battery. Go figure Porche 🤷🏻♂️
Note that on a vehicle with blended braking such as a Porshe, when you touch the brake pedal it first activates regen braking, and only uses friction brakes as a last resort. Maximum regen on vehicles with blended braking is available through the brake pedal, and pressing the brake pedal does not mean applying friction braking.
You're confusing regen braking with one pedal driving. A Taycan would have done the same thing, it still has regen. It's just activated through the brake pedal instead of off-accelerator.
@@GregHassler This is happening more often these days. Also Viking has them mixed up quite often. One-pedal-driving is something different than regen braking. It's possible to implement one-pedal-driving without regen braking and it is also possible to have regen braking without one-pedal-driving. I'd hazard a guess that all EVs not offering one-pedal-driving, in fact use regen braking.
I used to drive a leaf, back when they only had 140km range. I'd get more range by putting the car in neutral when going down hills on the highway because it had regenerative braking. Coasting is much better. I now have a Tesla with enough range that I just don't care. Recuperating energy going downhill isn't as efficient/equivalent to the distance you'd get had the regenerative braking not been slowing you down.
As someone who has driven an EV for the last 8 years, I can tell you this is a question of semantics. One pedal driving does not mean the driver removes all pressure on the accelerator. It isn’t a binary on or off condition. It is certainly possible to not waste kinetic energy with regenerative braking. In the summer, I can modulate the pressure applied by my foot on the accelerator when approaching a red light to stop perfectly on the stop line without touching the brake pedal. The key is modulating the accelerator to vary the regeneration such that you slow down continuously. While the car is decelerating, a good chunk of the car’s kinetic energy is converted to electrical and then chemical energy stored back in the battery. If I use the normal brakes, all that kinetic energy is wasted as it is converted to heat which has to be dissipated by the brake rotors. In both cases, total energy is conserved but in the first case, the battery energy is available to propel the car after the car stops. My car’s brakes’ rotor and pads had minimal wear after almost 100k miles. They’ll last the life of the car.
They are 100% correct. I have tried all options in an ioniq 5. Coast where possible and regen if necessary, brake as a last resort for maximum efficiency. One pedal driving is great in built up traffic for convenience.
Engineer here.. Porsche is right, but only if you compare it to using the brakes as little as possible and driving frugal enough to let the rolling friction slow down the car as much as possible.. ie. take your foot off the accelerator entirely 700m before an anticipated stop and ever slightly ease on brakes around 300m.. chances are, by the time you arrive, lights will have turned green/traffic will have already started moving again.. you're already going half the speed limit, wasted no energy thru regen and don't need to spend much speeding up from a complete stop again. In a petrol, this can wipe ~35% of consumption.. it's less drastic in an EV because the regen helps, but you're still better off having regen on really low.
If it doesn't have one-pedal driving, I don't want it. I LOVE not having to touch my brakes most of the time in my Volt. Wish it were stronger and brought me to a stop... I guess if you want your EV to drive more like a gasser 🤷🏻♂️ The number of times I want my car to coast/sail is zero.
Do not not car comes to a stop from regen braking alone. Trye one pedal driving means even activating the friction brakes without touching the brake pedal. The opposite to blended braking as used by Porsche where the brake pedal activates regen instead of friction when possible.
My 1951 Studebaker had a "free-wheeling" (coasting) feature, but it was given up as a bad idea. It was argued that coasting resulted in some loss of control, especially on steep hills.
polestar implementation is great , it gives you all options ! pick your way / one pedal , two pedal , blend braking , creep .. it has em all. one pedal driving is great way to drive smoothly .
just had my VOLT inspected today, and after 8 years, the brake pads measured 11/32, still have not had any maintenance spending other than a quart of oil for the generator and tires.
Stepping on brakes does not mean no energy recuperation. There should still be recuperation unless you step on the brakes so hard that traditional brake pads is activated. If you apply brakes gradually, the braking should generate energy recuperation similar to one pedal driving.
Coasting is more efficient than slowing down using regen and accelerating again. Regen is more efficient than physical braking, but regen is less efficient than just coasting (when coasting is possible). I use OPD, but I use it for convenience, not efficiency. I can turn it on or off, I am surprised that Porsche don’t provide the same option.
Agree with Porsche. For my type of driving, coasting is most effective, as I mainly drive country roads and motorways. Had BEV from 2014 then with forced One pedal, for 5 years. Will not have One pedal again, likes to drive. Now have family BEV with AWD and can be driven without One Pedal and determine regeneration manually via Paddles behind the steering wheel. Especially in winter/icy roads, it is nice to be able to handle the car yourself.
I disagree with Porsche. I had no trouble coasting with one pedal driving. With two pedal driving, you are literally just doing with two pedals what you can do with one.
I too agree with Porsche. In addition, what is stated here is true for Tesla as it does not have energy recuperation when braking while the majority of brands do have blended brakes where energy recuperation is restored in most braking. I think one pedal has its followers as do detractors. I don't have a BEV but I do have a RAV4 Hybrid and I NEVER place the selector for maximum regeneration except in very select instances and I would hate to have one pedal all the time.
@@vic321344 I think you confuse the fact that not having one pedal drive means you cannot slow your car down with regenerative braking. In fact, the Porsche way comes natural for those of us that are used to driving manual transmissions where you downshift to slow down in inclines or bad weather, or even to reduce speed in a traffic light. And if you have the levers behind the wheel even better.
It is simple. High regen settings are more efficient than low on EVs without blended braking, but lost regen from the throttle pedal is most efficient if you do have blended braking. Can point to more thorough explanation if anyone wants.
If we are to argue that Porsche should offer an option between brake pedal regen and one pedal driving, then I think we should apply the same argument to Teslas. Although I like one pedal driving, I would like the option for coasting and regen braking in my Tesla. I also suspect that coasting and regen via the brake pedal is slightly more efficient than one pedal driving, if done properly.
Porsche engineers are correct for reasons they've already given you and in other comments. Average losses during regen are 30-40% so whenever you lift off the accelerator pedal, you start losing 30% - 40% of the kinetic energy you're converting to electricity. As already mentioned by Porsche, when you press the brake pedal your EV uses regenerative braking anywhere and only incorporates mechanical braking during heavy/harsh braking or when the car speed is too low for meaningful regen. In a nutshell the most efficient way is 1. coast as much as possible(reduce regen losses) 2. Avoid harsh braking(eliminate mechanical braking) Personally I prefer BMW's approach with Adaptive regenerative braking which varies according to situation (traffic and location) plus an easily accessible B mode (one pedal) for city driving.
The people saying that the position of the pedal needs to be super fine-tuned to coast with OPD - NO. This would be the case if you had zero drag (think magnitic levitation rails on the moon - no road fiction, no atmospheric drag), or when going down hill at the perfect angle to counteract the drag of the vehicle, or if you want to slow down at the exact rate of drag, or accelerate at the exact rate the car naturally would when you're going downhill. Otherwise, you're always adding energy to hold speed, or slowing down. If you coast for a bit (zero energy added or taken away), you're loosing speed that needs to be boosted up periodically, whereas if you trickle that energy in to maintain speed you end up using the same amount of energy, or slightly less since more acceleration requires more energy. So "coasting" with OPD is just giving that tiny boost to maintain speed, whereas "coasting" without OPD is gradually slowing, then boosting back up, then gradually slowing, then boosting back up. With OPD, when you put your foot down to the point you're going the speed you want, when you go uphill it boosts power and when you go downhill it regens to keep roughly that speed. It's like setting a thermostat. Two pedal driving is like manually controlling the temp - turning it on and off yourself as you get too cold or too hot. There's not really a "right way", but one-pedal driving doesn't need the finesse some people think it does and it's definitely more efficient. I live in an area that is super winding and hilly, so you're always switching from acceleration to deceleration, and the one-pedal driving is especially dreamy here. Dialing in the exact speed is always super easy, whether going uphill or down, and transitioning from braking to accelerating is buttery smooth with zero effort (eg hitting the apex of a corner and accelerating out) because you're just gradually pushing the pedal forward until it organically makes the transition on its own.
In my Mach e you can feel an immediate drag on the car when one pedal is engaged. It is much better to turn it off and only allow regen during braking and as much coast as possible. With one pedal driving, it is a constant draw on the battery to move forward. This leads to higher energy usage.
Porsche is correct when they say that coasting is more efficient than braking or regenerative braking. However, this is no contradiction to One Pedal Driving ! Of course it is possible to Coast when using One Pedal Driving and on top of that, One Pedal Driving is much more comfortable. For me personally one of the most important features. My Idea is that Porsche has always been an ICE company and some people within this organization can not get rid of the thought that cars urgently need mechanical brakes (and ICE motors). So don´t let people get too comfortable with One Pedal Driving and find some good arguments...
I cant imagine coasting to stop or scrub speed fast enough. The only time I need to 'coast' is when I want to scrub a wee bit of speed when I am coming up to other cars. I let up on the throttle a little and the car stops using energy and I coast a little. I just cant see where all this coasting is suppose to take place.. or did I miss the point? lol I might have.
I fully agree with Sam. The laws of physics can't be denied not even by Porsche.. Its energy conservation. You put energy into the vehicle with the right foot and change that energy to heat with the brake pedal which is then dissipated into the environment along with brake dust. Regen recovers some of the input, what is lost is the result of aerodynamic drag, mechanical and tire friction which is also lost in an ICE vehicle.
Thanks for the video. However Porsche are correct. My EV has paddles to control the amount of regen, I drive in zero regen mode and use the paddles to slow down, the brakes are only used for 1-2 secs to bring the car to a complete halt, it is a very easy learned habit and works well for me. The brakes are of course blended, so slight braking applies regen, but does not activate the pads, only heavy braking applies the pads as well as regen. You need to maintain momentum/kinetic energy, one pedal driving in my EV applies regen as soon as I lift off the pedal, yes, you can try and feather the pedal to simulate coasting, but my experience is that one pedal gives me lower efficiency.
As in Prius Prime, when you break, it actutally use the regen system unless you floor it, which is very rare; same for Telsa drivers who use the break pedial in emergency strong breaking. It may save energy to use coasting and use regen using the break pedal.
When I use coasting I get about. 0.2 to 0.5 more miles per kWh. My Bolt has regen on the brake pedal, and medium and high regen on the accelerator (via shifter), so I have to shift to N to coast.
In the UK it was or still is, illegal to freewheel or coast in a motorcar. For me, the best of both worlds should be offered in an EV, as certain slight inclines are great for coasting down and would not produce any meaningful re-gen. Hope all is going ok for you all in Vietnem, regards
I'm on my third electric or plug-in hybrid. My Ford Fusion Energi did regenerative braking and probably recovered 80+% of the kinetic energy back to the battery. My 2017 Volt, using the paddle probably recovers 90+% of the kinetic energy back to the battery. I still have it and have to step on the brake at about 3 MPH to stop. I think the paddle recovers more electricity than stepping on the brake because it is explicitly regen only. My Model Y with one pedal driving recovers a lot, but even the one pedal driving may use brake pads a little bit. What can hurt a Tesla's mileage with one pedal driving, is if you drive jerkily, speeding up one second and slowing down the next. Regeneration always involves energy loss; the more jerkiness, the more loss. I'm still learning how to be smooth while using one pedal. The real question will be can the Porsche travel at 65 MPH on LA freeways while only using 237 w-h/mile? If yes, Yay for Porsche; if no, boo for Porsche. Porsche could be right, but efficiency will only be achieved applying many fine points of engineering. These engineering approaches are all about equal.
For the Hyundai eGMP EVs that are all wheel drive, their one-pedal drive mode requires automatic continuous activation of both the front and rear motors, which reduces efficiency compared to their available non-one pedal drive modes, which disconnect the front motor when only rear wheel drive power is necessary. In these cars the most efficient way to drive is to actively switch in and out of one-pedal driving mode on the fly as needed, using one-pedal mode only when you are braking to a stop, to prevent or minimize accidental unnecessary activation of the friction brakes, and then deactivating one-pedal mode when you get moving again.
Everyone should know that driving smoothly and anticipating traffic to maintain momentum and minimise regen and friction brake use particularly maximises efficiency. Tesla don't use blended brakes so my muscle memory learns the regen braking characteristics and my driving adapts to maximise it's use while maintaining momentum. Blended brakes hide the changeover point so you don't learn the regen characteristics of your car. It's very efficient, I can get 110Wh/km on a 30 minute commute if I drive efficiently You can coast, you just adjust your nett energy recovery to zero. Tesla have an energy bar that helps.
It's not and either/or thing. I don't like one-pedal driving, but I rarely use the brakes on my e-Niro. The left paddle will bring the car to a stop without touching the brakes, but I have the option of coasting. Whether accelerating or decelerating, the power conversion will have an efficiency loss (even though Regen braking recovers energy). Coasting is effectively a perfect option because the only loses are due to wind and rolling resistance - you get distance for free!
Here is why Porsche is correct: when you coast you allow your kinetic energy to keep pushing you forward. If you regen, then you are converting kinetic to electric potential energy to the later convert it again to kinetic energy to drive your car forward... Get it?! Any time you convert an energy from one form to another you inherently will waste some of that energy. Therefore, a regen and later use adds two steps of energy.
Read about the BYD 'No-pedal' driving at the bottom here. I would like to add some information regarding the misunderstanding with BYD Atto 3 regenerating braking. It is true that it does not come to a full stop. But the braking or speed reduction is possible to adjust to a high level. Depending on your driving style, this is very efficient. I admit that during my younger days, I probably would be using the gas, brakes and change gear more frequently. But today - adapting to drive a more "soft" way, I really love the Atto 3's softer speed reduction. One pedal driving is no problem, rather very comfortable. That I have to brake just before it almost stop (it doesn't stop by itself 100%), is okay, no problem. I am in the car anyway, so I can do the last 5 seconds of braking myself. But there is an option I tried out yesterday, driving for 5 hours. The 'no-pedal' driving. It is so smooth and comfortable and safe, I am honestly really surprised how well BYD has managed to set this up in the Atto 3. First I set the cruis. Then I set the distance to the car in front. It has to be 3 seconds behind the car in front according to Norwegian law - and it is on the Atto 3. Then I just drive/cruise in my set speed until I reach this 3 second distance behind another car. Then no matter speed, my car follow his car. In 90 km/h - down to 70 - up to 90 again, down to 40 km/h, or if he brakes more, it still follow. Accelerate, does everything. Well, when this car in front leave, the Atto 3, reduce speed and drive carefully past it, and accellerate back up to the previous set max speed. Until it find the next car, and follow that one 3 seconds behind. A Atto 3 is a real 'stalker'!! :))) But so incredibly comfortable. No-pedal driving!
Do note that when driving without using cruise, which is when the 'regen' setting applies, the higher regen setting will be less economical than the standard one on a vehicle with blended braking such as the Atto 3.
Hi Sam. I think you miss the idea that porche brakes are NOT connected to hydraulic system directly. Rather, the brakes are input to the braking software. As such, any touch to the brakes generate maximum regen before seamlessly engaging hydraulics. By disconnecting the motors for ANY length of time, you are eliminating that frictional drag and saving energy vs Tesla’s system of regen where there is no coasting time possible (assuming you have regen on of course). Interestingly, In Tesla’s system there is no regen ever added by pressing brake pedal, whereas in porche system there is no regen ever added when releasing accelerator.
I didn't know Tesla's don't do regen when pressing the brake pedal. If it's truly configured this way it is a major design flaw when it comes to efficiency Edit: I looked it up and Tesla's only regen with the release of the gas pedal. Porsches system is a way better design. I hope Tesla allows a choice via the software in the future to adjust how much regen happens when you step off the accelerator then applies remaining regen potential via the brake pedal and only engages the mechanical brakes after no more regen is available. Tesla's current design is a disaster for peak performance driving as the car will continue braking when you lift off the brake pedal and you need to create a balance between how much regular brakes are used, what the regen brakes are doing, and the timing to be able to lift off the mechanical brakes prematurely so you can reach the accelerator pedal before the regen takes too much speed off the vehicle.
@@abspasadena I'd agree in normal driving it's probably not that big of a deal in terms of efficiency. However in performance driving, which Porsche is oriented towards, a one pedal system is problematic. You have to release your brake pedal early so when the regen continues to brake as you move to the accelerator pedal you don't scrub off more speed than you intend to.
Sorry Viking, you are totally wrong! I’ve been driving a Taycan for over three years and don’t like single pedal driving. The great thing about the Taycan (that you are totally missing). Is pressing the brake pedal IS controlling the re-gen braking, rather than using the friction brakes. In fact, the only time friction brakes are used is at the start of a journey to clean the discs, or for very heavy braking at low speed -re-gen not efficient then. And why do I think the Porsche approach is more efficient? As you come off the accelerator the car goes into coast mode until the brake (re-gen) pedal is pressed so no undemanded braking results. . . Every time I drive a Tesla, or my wife’s electric mini, the single pedal driving gives me more brake demand than I need.
You do realize that you can coast in a Tesla right? You just depress the accelerator so that it is in between power and regen. Obviously if you want to come to a stop, regen is more efficient
many people probably think regenerative breaking is synonymous with one pedal driving. I was going to suggest a solution like you described until I read your post that the Taycan has it! 😄 Edit: I do agree with the viking though that giving ppl the option is a good thing :)
He even said that the physical brakes only kick in below 5km/h or if the motors can’t take any more regenerative braking. Shame, I really like this channel but this misses the mark. Some people just don’t want to use 1 pedal driving. Thats consumer choice
I like the one-pedal driving mode in my Model Y when driving slow in traffic or in a parking lot. It provides quicker response and more control for maneuvering around other cars. However, I find it a bit difficult to maintain a constant speed on the highway and I tend to accidently speed up a bit and then have to slow down. Slowing down with regenerative braking is pretty efficient, but there is some loss, so a steady speed would be more efficient overall. I think the algorithm could be refined to be a bit "sticky" at higher speeds. I.,E. require a slightly larger accelerator pedal movement to to speed up at higher speeds. Slowing down at higher speeds could also be a bit sticky, provided the cameras and AI don't see anything dangerous happening ahead. Stickiness would make it easier to maintain a steady speed. Based on the steering feel, I think they already have a similar sticky algorithm for steering assist, as it is easy to steer a straight line or a smooth path through a curve.
Here’s the facts. Published EPA combined cycle efficiency for Taycan = 279 Wh/km. Tesla Model S = 175 Wh/km. The cars have similar mass (2,200kg). The Tesla has a 10% better drag coefficient (0.208), though that wouldn’t explain the 60% difference in efficiency. But what's really interesting is the Tacan has lower efficiency on city cycle (295 Wh/km) than it does on the highway (265Wh/km). This is opposite to most well designed EVs. The fact that the Taycan performs so poorly around town points to an inferior energy recovery system, i.e. too much coasting and friction breaking.
You are recuperating energy but that energy needs to be converted twice to put it to use again, and that doesn't come free. From the simple question of energy efficiency they are right, the amount of energy you recover and can put back to use is less then the original momentum you had in the first place. Granted its only clear cut when you want to keep moving forward, a rather complex deep dive is needed to see how efficient it is from the whole driving experience.
Yes, this is correct. There are losses when converting the original kenetic energy into battery charge and losses when converting that battery charge back into kinetic energy. That said, I think that coasting is also possible with one pedal driving but it takes a more skillful feathering of the accelerator pedal to achieve the same result.
Newton’s first law of motion says that an object will remain in uniform motion unless acted upon by a force. So, neglecting friction and air resistance, a car that is travelling at, say 50 km/h, will continue at that speed indefinitely on a flat road. This is the benefit of coasting. It will not use any of the battery's charge. An example can illustrate this. Case 1: An electric car accelerates to, say 50 km/h over x metres using c kWh, and then the foot is removed from the accelerator and the car decelerates to a stop under regenerative braking in y metres. The distance covered is x + y metres and let's say the regeneration is r kWh. The net electrical usage is c - r kWh Case 2: The same car accelerates to 50 km/h over x metres, and then is allowed to coast at 50 km/h for z metres using no electricity. Next, the car is allowed to decelerate to a stop under regenerative braking in the same y metres as in Case 1. The amount of energy usage for acceleration remains at c kWh and the regeneration remains the at r kWh and the net usage is still c - r kWh. However, the distance travelled is greater at x + y + z metres, meaning that greater efficiency has been achieved, i.e., fewer kWh/km.
Can you actually feel the right spot? If you can't, you're actually very much in danger of doing what Porsche is warning for: inadvertently switching between applying power and regen alternately, thereby causing twice the losses.
1st: You're right, customers should have the choice. 2nd: Coasting is more energy effecient. However, without driving like your Grandmother, or me, coasting in city driving is not so practical. And from what I can tell, EV driver just prefer 1 pedal drivng.
Best EV milage. Cost on level or slightly downhill. Use varying regent to slow or stop. This is easy in the Ev6 with 4 levels of regent 0, 1, 2, 3 and max. 2 pedals on the steering wheel shifts levels up and quick and easy. At 0 car will coast a long way without losing much speed esp if slightly downhill. Often for fun I will play with the pedal and gain 5 to 15% more range over max regen one pedal driving
One pedal driving is technically not that different than two pedal, its just another philosophy, on the first part of the brakepedal you have regen braking and the mechanical brake starts on the second part, so also in a taycan you can drive without the mechanical brake, its just another kind of user interface.
As long as I have to consciously manage regenerative braking, there is an issue of optimality. Some EV allow the driver to set regen aggressiveness at different levels and the driver then uses the brake when deceleration is not fast enough. That's generally suboptimal. BYD solved this by connecting regen braking to the brake pedal. At some point of depressing the brake pedal the actual brakes work and up to that point regen increases. My guess is that this is nearer the optimum regen efficiency.
A couple of months ago I went to a Tesla dealership with a colleaguefor a test drive with the Tesla Model Y, and she also was convinced One Pedal driving is less efficient then using the brakes. I asked the salesperson as I was sure it didn't make any difference (tests by Bjorn Nyland), but they confirmed what she said. It's ... % less efficient then not having one pedal driving on.. This heavily made me doubt this salespersons knowledge of the cars he's selling, but didn't want to start a big argument. Ofcourse it will be more efficient if you don't regen compared to if you do. But if you have to brake anyway, its better to use regen to recup as much energy as possible. And yes, most, probably all EV's will use regen first, and only if you ask more braking force then the max regen available, will the brakes kick in. Or at least that's what I've read / heard. So does it really make a difference? One pedal driving or just using the brakes. I don't think so, but I find it much easier and prefer One Pedal Driving!
Yes I agree with Porsche, I never use one pedal driving, it’s inefficient, every time I lifted my foot slightly off the pedal the electric motor braking engaged as opposed to the car coasting, which reduced efficiency. My car has blended braking so when I apply the brakes with the brake pedal the car uses electric motor regeneration first and only engages the friction brakes if braking hard, mostly all my braking is done using regen. There is a bigger issue here, one pedal driving is in my opinion extremely dangerous. Becoming accustomed to lifting your foot to slow down will in emergency situations cause drivers to simply lift there foot off the accelerator pedal as opposed to pressing the brake pedal, it’s all about brain conditioning, subconscious reactions and is why pilots and astronauts train rigorously to respond instinctively.
Where do you drive that there are No other drivers on the road and you can do all this coasting? It's not the West coast of Fl, where pulling out in front of another car is standard even in the boonies. Really love when tourist pull out into 60 mph traffic and soft pedal it to 35mph. One pedal makes this so much more tolerable in real world driving. One pedal rocks!
It is only correct that coasting is more efficient in a theoretical Frame of reference. for instance you're able to perfectly predict the exact stopping location for each route you're traversing and you're able to coast to that stop rather than using regenerative breaking and creating any heat loss. That would be theoretically more efficient than utilizing regenerative breaking. However, every practical use case will show that 1 pedal driving is going to be more efficient. It is impossible to predict every traffic pattern on every road every stop sign every turn given every road's pitch et cetera. A freeway without differences in traffic speeds and patterns would be a good example of where porches correct
You misunderstand, they're not talking about coasting to a stop. If you need to stop, then stop. Any EV should use regen to do so. They're talking about minor speed adjustments on a highway, and the natural speed drift that everyone has unless using some form of cruise control. If the car "coasts" instead of immediately going into regen, it's more efficient. The difference isn't that large however, but coasting is provably more efficient.
Don’t know if it’s more efficient to coast, but I wish I could in my Tesla. Letting off the acc pedal sometimes especially on the highway would be nice when I’m not using cruise control.
you sound right, but I’m not sure if you are based on my experience so far. I looked this subject up because ,as an Uber driver who drives up to 200 miles a day, I’m seeing that coasting has been giving me better mileage in my polestar 2… so I was wandering if acceleration is uses a lot of energy, and regen breaking gives very little recharge, then your losing the distance you’d get from coasting and the energy you regenerated by needing to accelerate more often. Maybe? Just a thought
4:25 what they mean is the efficiency losses of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy while regen braking and then another round of losses when converting electrical energy back to mechanical energy. Porsche is absolutely correct on this one. I’m an electrical engineer. Also, what Porsche means when they say you lose energy when going downhill in a car that has one pedal driving is that regen braking is less efficient going downhill than simply coasting. With all things equal, if two cars were going down hill and both started with 50% energy, the car that can coast will be able to drive a lot further than the car without the ability to coast due to inefficiencies. Every time the car regenerate brakes, it loses a small % of energy to convert the energy. That doesn’t happen with coasting. You want proof of this? Try skateboarding downhill on a regular skateboard vs an electric one.
Agree with other posters that Porsche are correct, but so minimal as to be irrelevant. If comparing to Tesla it doesn't matter because Teslas are more efficient generally so Porsche can't improve on Tesla even with a more efficient brake strategy. Blending regen and friction braking has proven difficult in the past. Many reviews have reported janky transitioning between the two in cars that offered it. It may be Tesla decided early on to avoid the problem and now they've established a praxis that their customers expect to be maintained. They also get a redundancy advantage by keeping regen and friction brakes as independent systems, but again the difference is pretty irrelevant given how reliable both systems are.
OK, the taycan controls its re gen braking, with the brake pedal first, then applies brake. However Tesla's control re gen by releasing the accelerator. It is totally possible to coast in a tesla you just don't take your foot right off. When the green /black, acceleration /brake indicator shows nothing, you are coasting.
First time I have to disagree with you Sam and tell you that Porsche is right. What they mean is that the best way to use energy from your battery is by NOT using it compared to using it and then recuperating some back. That's where those two loses come to play. One is by powering the motor the second is by recuperating both processes are not 100% effective and never will be. I have an EV for 3 years(2 years Model S and 1 year Model 3 ) now and believe it or not this is the way I'm trying to drive by not using the energy at all and by recuperating as little as possible. That doesn't mean I use friction brakes I barely touch them at all. Which has it down sides but this is for another time...(brakes need more maintenance on an EV then an ICE car in cold climates!) Example: my style(what Porsche say): Driving towards a stop sign or a signal light where you see you have to come to 0km/h. I start slowing down as soon as I see the sign, just roll for 200-300m( as much as possible ) and then recuperate slowly, not using frictions brakes at all maybe from just the last 5->0km/h. One pedal driving: you accelarate/hold the city speed limit speed until 50m in front of STOP sign and then use full regen. That means you were using energy on 150-250m were I was just rolling and then recuperating. Maybe your speed was a bit higher when you started recuperating but you used more energy that I did. And now the two losses come to play. Which I had also before but not for so long as I was just rolling and using the energy I already spent. This of course has a down side. You may be slowing down traffic this way so I'm not doing this only if there is no one behind me. And going back to luxury option the car should do this automatically, see and think ahead by not using energy. If you power the car for more then you have to you loose range, no mather how powerfull your regen is.
One pedal is irrelevant to this issue because its only the last 2 or 3 mph. But Porsche are correct in that if you slow down through regen and then speed up again that is more inefficient than slowing down less so you have to speed up less. There are too many people who think that regen is a magic way of getting more power. Its better not to slow down.too much On the motorway for example you want lower drag by coasting when you relax your foot on the accelerator rather than braking vi regen immediately.. Also, you can put your foot on the brake pedal that doesnt mean the physical brakes are used imemdiately, many cars blend physical and regen. If i press my brake pedal (Kia) you immediately can see regen is going on first and its only if you press really hard that the physical brakes are used. And in the case of non OPD, the last few mph that physical brakes come on. I use mild regen in town and none on motorways but that doesn't affect what the brake pedal does it just means I dont immediately get regen when i ease off the accelerator it means i coast instead. Then touching brakes lightly regen then harder physical..All this without OPD.
Many of the people who think high regen from the throttle and one pedal driving is efficient, think that because they drive cars without blended braking like the Porsche, on the brake pedal and without that blended braking, you need one pedal driving or something to access high levels of regen.
Absolutely. Porsche is correct in their argument that it is better to use the vehicle's kinetic energy to keep it moving as opposed to using regen to put energy back into the battery, which incurs energy transfer losses. Of course, when you need to brake, regen is the most efficient way to do so. A blended braking system is ideal from an energy use perspective (unfortunately not all EVs have this, e.g., not in Teslas). In my MY, I find myself minimizing regen braking by "simulated coasting," whereby I gradually lift off the accelerator to slow down so there is almost imperceptible regen and then lift off the accelerator more to come to a complete stop. With drive-by-wire braking/acceleration, Tesla should be able to offer a blended braking option with a software update. Seems odd that they haven't done so.
They want you to go through brakes quick and come for service. They are not playing with you. I love Porsche but cost of repairs and servicing will kill you. They make more money on services just like most OEM companies.
💯 Viking! If you drive your Porsche like it’s a Porsche you are never likely to roll to a stop but will be using the brake pedal. Anyhow, their claims should be easy enough to verify. Just drive a Taycan and a Model S side by side for one lap of Bathurst. Record the start and end state of charge and compare. My money’s on the Tesla 💵🤔
I had 3 Porsches, the amount of time anyone is going to be driving as if they are in a race is small. Most Porsche owners use them for posing around or driving in normal traffic conditions.
I suppose they mean when using the brake pedal the car actually use regenerative braking with the motors. And the disc brake only engage in very low speeds or if you like emergency brake. So basically it’s no difference between using the gas pedal for slowing down with regen or if you use the brake pedal. That’s how the car I use works. And if you then use the coasting setting instead of regenerative braking on the gas pedal you will have just a little less losses by coasting more. Compared to a little more deceleration and acceleration with the regen on.
Yes, 'twice the losses' of the car energy, Less the energy of the driver (both mental and physical). Besides, you can choose from the setting, if you want to save your own energy or the energy from your battery.
Lifting to coast does not have the losses of slowing down using regen and then accelerating back up to speed. You lose kinetic energy when converting it to electricity in regenerative braking then charging the battery then back from the battery to the inverter then converting it back to kinetic energy with the motor. Every energy conversion loses energy. If you can coast, you will not have the conversions and losses. Having the accelerator engage the motor and the brake pedal engage regen before engaging the brake pads with coasting in between makes more sense than constantly going between accelerating and regen. And the one pedal driving that takes cars to a complete stop also engages the friction brakes to take it to a complete stop and hold it there... it isn't all regen at slow speeds. It is just what makes more sense to control the car, not which uses friction brakes more. Having the car coast on lift off and then use regen only when braking will reduce losses.
depends on the overall average speed which will correlate with inertia and how often you have to stop and start, so i could see a range of factors that could make constantly slowing down and starting up again inefficient... it's not impossible...
I don't think the agreement should be 1 pedal vs 2 pedal, the basic physical truth is that accelerating more/faster than necessary is inefficient, and decelerating more/faster is inefficient. As long as the vehicle utilizes it's kinetic energy to decelerate, it should be generally efficient. It doesn't matter whether that's from releasing the accelerator pedal or from pressing the "brake" pedal.
im looking at my Kona App , i use OPD all the time , its says average consumption 5.25 , driving distance 121.78 miles 12.20kwh .total energy consumption 49.05kwh , Average consumption 5.46mi/kwh ,Total driving distance 267 miles .recuperation 31.17kwh .
CATL is giving Chinese EV makers (Aiways, BAIC, Geely, GAC, SAIC, NIO, Li Auto, Huawei, Shenlan and Zeekr) a loyality rebate on batteries. But not Tesla, Ford and XPeng. Instead of $64,000 they only have to pay $27,300 per ton of Lithium carbonate. Condition to get this rebate is that these EV makers buy at least 80% of their batteries from CATL.
Porsche, Polestar,Kia, Hyundai and others use blended braking. Pressing the brake pedal slows the car through regen. More pressure on the pedal applies more regen until max regen is reached and then further brake pedal pressure applies friction brakes as needed.
One pedal drive mode still blends friction brakes at low speed to bring the car to a complete stop even though you don’t use the brake pedal.
I like to use i-pedal (one pedal) in city traffic in my EV6, but for highway driving I prefer a low regen setting for a smoother more comfortable drive. And if I need to brake, I’m still using regen.
Does the Taycan have that system?
That Sam missed this makes me wonder about the quality of his research going into his videos. The cool thing about good blended brakes is that you don‘t even notice when the mechanical brakes engage.
One pedal braking is highly problematic as drivers don‘t intuitively slam on the brakes in emergency situations.
@@jsanders100 Yes
All well said! Note that if you have blended braking, the low regen setting for the throttle will be just a little more efficient.
@@jsanders100 Indeed it does.
Porsche engineers are correct. But it's a bit like the ancient theologians debating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The difference is scarcely noticeable in any 50 miles of mixed terrain drive. Many YTubers have driven a fixed route using all driving modes and settings and report 0.1 miles per Kw difference.
So it becomes purely a drivers preference on how they drive that matters. I choose a different style dependent on the situation. In town one pedal works best for me. Rural twisties I use the auto regen function. Open roads I coast. Motorways, auto cruise.
But I would find using one pedal driving all the time quite annoying as I wouldn't be able to relax my foot at any time without unnecessary deceleration. And also using the zero regen coasting method all the time would soon become irritating. This is all about selecting what is appropriate and not being concerned about saving a few pennies in a car that you spent thousands on.
Porsche is correct - technically - but the difference is not worth debating much. Just be aware that there isn't one method available to you on any one journey. And one of the best parts of driving an EV is to explore those options and learn new driving skills.
Completely agree, but I still wanted to explain WHY Porsche is right. In short, it comes down to the inefficiency of charging and discharging as well as DC to DC convention. Imagine you are driving behind a car that brakes hard-ish. 99% of all people will immediately pull their foot off the accelerator to prevent a collision. Chances are your car will brake excessively. Many times the leading car would start accelerating back but you would have recuperated more energy than you could've. The more energy you recuperate, the more you lose because of those inefficiencies. Add recovery acceleration after that and your losses increase even more.
There are a couple of extra points that deserve making.
First, these situations represent a small time of all driving, so their effect on overall efficiency is negligible.
Second, if Porsche is claiming this, their round trip efficiency must be quite low. Tesla, for example, is known for the incredible improvement it did to the round-trip with plaid. Porsche could be 20% behind for all we know. So with Tesla, the effect is even more negligible.
@@gvaley Or in short. Every conversion of energy comes with a loss of energy. Even if it might be little. Converting electric energy into velocity comes with some loss of energy, and the reverse as well. So from a pure mathematical standpoint Porsche is correct.
It's really no different than old v8 Camano vs v6. The v6 had no power and could coast. The z28 slowed down when you let off the gas.
My bolt has both. You can turn off single pedal mode. And it has a paddle for extra regen. So I still don't need to use the brakes much
All my best wishes for your wife and family. Porsche are correct on this. With 1 pedal driving you are either drawing current from the battery or sending current to the battery. When you coast you draw very little current from the battery while keeping most of the kinetic energy. The optimal thing would be to activate regeneration by pushing the brake pedal and transitioning to disk braking when needed. The hard part of that is to get the brakes to feel "normal" while being oblivious to whether regeneration or disk braking is occurring.
I don’t know the maths on this, but that seems to be fairly intuitive.
Personally id rather have a break pedal like a two stage trigger. Very little resistance for the regenerative breaking portion, higher resistance for the friction break portion. That way I could easily let off the gas to coast, engage max regenerative breaking without accidentally engaging friction breaking then engage friction breaking when necessary.
I cant imagine coasting to stop or scrub speed fast enough. The only time I need to 'coast' is when I want to scrub a wee bit of speed when I am coming up to other cars. I let up on the throttle a little and the car stops using energy and I coast a little. I just cant see where all this coasting is suppose to take place.. or did I miss the point? lol I might have.
it depends on the software algorithm. Regen is not perfectly efficient..there are losses. Of course, not using single pedal driving also uses regen. So in comparison with a driver who powers forward electrically and then coasts to a stop, using regen only at the end of the process, versus another driver is constantly on/off/on/off and alternating between powering forward and regen slowing, the first scenario is more efficient. But in real world driving and with well designed software, and without nonsensical driving patterns, single-pedal driving is not worse than coasting, because the single pedal software allows for coasting.
This means you have no idea about what you are writing. One pedal drive means the car is measuring how much you push the pedal and keep the speed if you just sit steady. When you rise the pedal, first is taking all the energy from the reverse loading, if you rise quick, the mechanical brakes act. Using 2 pedals is just forcing you to push the brake pedal, and you will ALWAYS brake more than strictly necessary (as one pedal drive does), just because you pushed the pads on brake disks... Really, VW paid you? I hate when I brake, because I brake on my money, I feel them burning on disks... One pedal drive makes people drive more relaxed, with lower cycles of acceleration - brakes, the typical driving cycles for angry people...
Bro, for BYD when you brake, you engage the regenerative braking. You can actually check out the wattage saved. The reason they do that is to make sure ppl coming from oil can adapt it easily.
I've been driving EVs for a while and I'm indicating12.7kWh/100km over the last 5000km in a BYD YuanPlus/Atto 3
No, the reason they do this is to give the driver complete control of braking.
@@MegaWilderness this is the way. If the driver wants to give up attention and driving responsibility: Ride an electric bus, and be free of guilt and responsiblities.
@@chrstphrr It's not necessarily the way as you put it. It was Tesla's poor method of implementing braking. To be properly and safely implemented a joy stick should be used to control steering, acceleration and braking.
@@chrstphrr It's not necessarily the way as you put it. It was Tesla's poor method of implementing braking. To be properly and safely implemented a joy stick should be used to control steering, acceleration and braking.
I think the driving style has most influence on efficiency
true
And driving style is also why Porsche made this choice. They sell sports cars, they estimate you will regularly drive fast, brake hard, etc. They don't want you to drive a Porsche with the intent of squeezing every bit of efficiency possible.
iirc Most non-Tesla EVs (as well as hybrids and plug-in hybrids) are set up so that when you use the brake pedal the car will preferentially activate regenerative braking first, and only switch to the friction brakes when you need to brake faster than the regenerative braking system is able to slow the car down. And whether you can change the regen braking strength or not, there will always be some level of pressure on the accelerator that will result in the car coasting, with acceleration happening if you press it further, and regen braking activating if you release the pedal more.
So you can coast as much as you want to in one pedal driving mode, just by adjusting your pressure on the accelerator pedal, and you are still using regenerative braking for as much as the car is designed to be able to, when you use the regular brake pedal.
So it mostly just boils down to individual preference for driving style. Anyone can achieve the exact same efficiency with either method if they want to.
The only functional difference between the two modes is that brief window of time when you move your foot from the accelerator to the brake, when you'll be coasting or regen braking at whatever the car's default level is set to (or you're allowed to preset yourself), rather than controlling it entirely on your own volition in real time. Plus how good the car's specific operating software is at figuring out when is the most optimal moment to make the switch from regen braking to friction braking.
As for the basic physics, coasting IS superior to regenerative braking because the recapture of kinetic energy into the battery can never be 100% efficient. So whatever range you recapture into the battery with regen braking, it will be less than the range the car could have traveled just by coasting for the same amount of time. Thus for any given distance wherein you need to stop at the end, if you can manage to coast the WHOLE way to the stop, with road friction slowing the car the whole time in which you need to decelerate, you will use less total energy than if you maintained a steady speed and then applied regenerative braking at the end to stop. The thing is, particularly in city driving, you CAN'T usually coast the whole way, because you have to maintain a certain speed to keep up with the flow of traffic, and there are forced stops at traffic lights and so forth.
The theoretical most efficient way to drive is to accelerate for the minimum amount of time needed to reach and maintain the speed you need to reach, coast for as much as you can, and brake for the bare minimum needed to stop when you have to stop, and use to regenerative braking for 100% of that braking. But for most vehicles you can achieve this both with or without one-pedal braking. A particular driver may find it easier or harder to accomplish this with one driving mode versus the other, but that's an individual thing. Like if you're not great at controlling the accelerator in one-pedal mode, such that you have a tendency to release and start regen braking too early, you'll be less efficient in that mode, while if you're particuarly lead footed on the break such that you always activate the friction braking too soon, you'll be less efficient in THAT mode.
OPD is the best part of EV, the safest way to drive to.
Agree it can be fun, but disagree it is in anyway safer. Remember that in an emergency, you still need the brake pedal.
@@onefiniteplanet OPD have zero to do With the brake. You brake if You need to.
@@peternystrom921 unless you're a new driver who was trained on a one pedal driving car and never developed proper skills to use the brake pedal.
What is the evidence that it is safer?
Regen braking should be tied to the brake pedal. A light push on brake pedal regen, hard push regen and hydraulic.
Max coasting is key. Regen braking is for braking only. And you need to keep your braking reflex sharp for panic braking when it occurs. If you get too accustomed to one pedal for most braking I suspect your reaction time to hit the brakes will increase. Imo
Personally id rather have a break pedal like a two stage trigger. Very little resistance for the regenerative breaking portion, higher resistance for the friction break portion. That way I could easily let off the gas to coast, engage max regenerative breaking without accidentally engaging friction breaking then engage friction breaking when necessary.
That's exactly how my 8 year old VW E-Golf works. The fact that Tesla won't even provide the option defies my comprehension. It would just be a free over the air software update, so why not?
I agree entirely. This should be the method used by EV manufacturers and something I'll be looking for when I buy my first EV.
Only time you want to coast for long period is on the highway, we have adaptive cc as standard...
Porsche is absolutely correct on this one actually. It’s simple physics, but I guess it depends on how a person drives. People who don’t know how to drive think there are only two modes in a car, drive and brake. However, there are actually three modes while driving a car, drive, coast, and brake. One pedal driving removes the coasting option and replaces it with regen braking, which is much less efficient than coasting.
It doesn't remove coasting, you can easily coast by pressing the pedal sligtly. Only time you need to coast for long distances is on the highway, and we have smart cc as standard.
@@ogzombieblunt4626 It really boils down to how good you are at pressing the pedal by just the right amount to enable coasting. If you have a tendency to release prematurely you'll end up activating regen braking too soon and too much and get lower efficiency. In that case, being able to simply guarantee to coast by removing your foot from the accelerator entirely may be easier for you to manage. Preference, practice and how the car manufacturing designs the pedal feedback and feel obviously would affect this.
I had a Tesla model 3 for two years I’ve used one pedal driving and I’ve never had to replace my brakes. I had them checked and they said they were surprised at how much brakes were left for the mileage. I have a new model Y now and I love the one pedal driving.
Same is true on a Taycan, it uses brake blending - actuating the brakes on a Taycan activates regen up to the maximum amount possible before adding in mechanical brakes. The pads are almost never used. With a Tesla, if you touch the brake pedal you ARE using mechanical brakes.
I have an ICE car with 100k miles on it and I have the original brakes and last time they were inspected I was told I have plenty of brake pad left. I coast up to stop signs and light so that when I have to stop I need very little braking. I try to always be light on the brake pedal. When I do have to brake, like before a down hill corner, I hate the idea I'm wasting energy. I have a model Y LR on order and can't wait to use 1 pedal driving.
Exactly! Give people the choice to select IF you can figure out one pedal smooth and efficient calibration… ahh, we have discovered their problem!!
They're desperate and lying.
Sorry Viking but Porsche is 100% correct on this. I work on the development team for the manufacturer of heavy electric vehicles, if you are coasting you are using the vehicles kinetic energy to cover more ground and not use any energy from the battery, where as with one pedal driving you are always consuming energy from the batteries (unless under regen)
My example and test subject weights just over 12tonne and regen is very effective and under normal driving conditions can bring the vehicle speed from 100 down to 3kph without application of the friction brakes and at present our operators are over 250,000kms on the original brake pads and rotors, if you want to discuss more I'd happily oblige😉
Driving style is important. I try to maintain a constant speed and plan far ahead avoiding stopping where possible. Coasting is great with n empty road but impractical in most traffic conditions. I therefore feel regen is a good compromise.
As for brake wear, on one of my EV cars with 100,000km there is no noticeable pad or disc wear. I also have a gas car with almost 90,000km also with very little brake wear proving driving style is important. The majority of driving is in suburban roads.
I doubt most people even know what kinetic energy is. They are just used to the old primitive always on regen brakes and associated that with EVs for some reason I can’t understand.
This is why tesla recommends cruise control for the most efficient driving.
I love the "not quite stop" method. Using purely regen to get down to walking speed and creeping up to hazards,
Keeps you alert as you gameify the situation (using foundation brakes counts as a fail).
Makes you safer - some dolt in a BMW is less likely to overtake an obviously moving vehicle than a stationary one.
Saves energy - you don't have to "buy back" the 3mph from zero to get the vehicle moving every single time because you are looking further down the road to smooth out speed peaks and troughs.
Porsche is also looking at this from a performance driving point of view where you want discrete controls for acceleration and deceleration.
The key to efficiency where one-pedal driving is concerned is to make sure to engage regen only in situations where you would normally apply braking. Coasting is more efficient to slow down the car where braking is not needed. The difficulty for most drivers who use one-pedal driving is they can't modulate the accelerator pedal perfectly to achieve this. In my experience, even when paying attention, I inadvertently let up off the accelerator and go into regen mode when I don't intend to slow down. Consequently, I wind up having to use battery energy to speed up again. In my Nissan Leaf, I find that for my driving habits ECO mode is most efficient. It offers only moderate regen. While this is less efficient when I need to slow down, it penalizes me less when I let up off the accelerator unintentionally. Overall, I personally get better efficiency in ECO on the Leaf.
When I had a (2019) Leaf, I didn't like how ECO and ePedal (or whatever that bumper toggle is called) felt. ECO just felt like it was stretching the lower end of the acceleration ("gas") pedal, so it wasn't as responsive. As I recall anyway, I never really used it after experimenting early on. The ePedal was far too aggressive in slowing down for the most part, but was nice that you could come to a complete stop with regen. So I settled on a kludgey method of coasting/slowing down on regular regen, then manually toggling the ePedal as a brake every time 😅. It was janky, but I did get much better efficiency than the EPA rating, typically.
I posted just about the same thing as you; then I read your post here. To make coasting easier, maybe EV makers could add a dynamic "dead spot" in the one pedal driving power curve as you lighten your foot.
Keeping my response simple, as a driving enthusiast and after owning a Y, I would not purchase an electric vehicle that does not have one pedal driving. Further, I think it offers an extra measure of safety in that the split second of slowing before your foot gets to the brake pedal in an emergency may make the difference in a positive outcome.
I think it s the opposite, one pedal break is more dangerous when you must react very fast - an emergency break (break very hard) as you don t have the foot on the break pedal yet while with Porsche design your foot is already on the break pedal if you need to press harder.
@@epnf7758
Not really an issue considering how good collision avoidance is on teslas. I had an instance where i was about to slam on the brakes and the tesla did it a split second earlier. Not really an issue.
@@epnf7758 One pedal driving does not mean you CAN'T use the brake pedal. My point was that while you are taking a split second moving your foot to the brake pedal the car has already begun slowing.
"Why not give option".. that is Porsche doing by providing the non-one-pedal driving
Do VAG products come with included perfect gradients (not too much not too little) and zero traffic under your feet ?
@@koryballs the whole VAG feature is born in the OLD emissions test labs - dedicated to reducing the very last gram of CO2 in order to placard it on the show room windscreen. Neither represented the world outside…….it remains only a theoretical victory.
The true importance is represented by the length of the ‘features’ list…….ie; mine’s bigger than yours.
I'm an Automotive Engineer, I work on EV and PHEV calibration
I agree customers should have the option of 1 pedal driving, from am marketing point of view. But the most efficient way to slow down is to coast, and loose speed as slowly as possible (Kenetic energy is king).
With one pedal driving as soon as an EV slows down, it will regen on the motors yes, but there are losses involved in this process. The most efficent way to drive is to maintain as much kenetic energy as possible. You can simulate this with one pedal driving by keeping your foot on the pedal but it is more difficult, so most drivers (including myself) won't do it all the time. A lot of drivers enjoy the feeling of one pedal driving, so they will keep "motoring" foot on pedal for longer, then use the one pedal driving to slow down quickly.
When you foot brake in a Taycan it will regen on the motor first (Just like one pedal driving in other EVs), and only when you really brake hard (or if there is a stability control intervention) will it use the vehicles foundation brakes.
What Porsche is doing here is encouraging drivers to maintain there speed, to maintain kenetic energy, with most drivers it will result in less energy usage.
What if pressing on the break pedal slightly does not engage the breaks right away but enables regenerative breaking??
Of course, one pedal driving is more efficient than an average driver’s accelerator-and-brake driving style. However, a driver who thinks ahead and anticipates when to stop pressing the accelerator pedal and starts coasting, can achieve greater efficiency while enjoying the relaxing coasting.
Porsche is correct, and more pleasant to drive!
The engineers at Porche must be rolling their eyes at the marketing doofus who shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how EVs function, since they coast just fine using one pedal driving. As an electrician, I can speak to one of the fundamental benefits of EVs: The electric Motor. EV motors can "freewheel" for coasting, and this does happen during one pedal driving. The one pedal driving software takes the input from the pedal and either sends power or draws power from the motor to maintain the desired speed. When accelerating or going up a hill it will use more power, then once up to speed it will reduce the power until it is just enough to maintain the desired speed.
If driving down a steep enough slope or decelerating, the software then has the ability to choose the amount of power that it needs to take from the cars inertia and put it back into the batteries, AKA regenerative braking. The amount of regenerative braking goes from zero, or coasting, to the point of causing the wheels stop rotating.
This allows the electric motor to fulfill the function of both motor and brakes in a single unit, and retain much of the energy that would normally be lost to friction heat during braking in ICEVs. The actual brake pads are only used if one has to stomp on the brakes during an emergency stop, and when the parking brake is engaged.
The best part of one pedal driving is that if one needs to brake hard, the car is already slowing down by the time one moves ones foot from the throttle pedal to the brake pedal.
My ex wife recently got a Chevy Bolt EV, and it has one pedal driving. She lets me drive it occasionally and it is a great pleasure to use, it just takes a little practice.
At best you can only recoup 70% of the energy through regen-braking. So coasting is better in cases where you want to coast. When you want to brake then regen-braking is of course more efficient. Applying regen-braking all the time will result in a loss of energy.
Porsche is completely correct and Sam is completely wrong. In fact, I wanted to patent one pedal driving even before I knew about Tesla's one pedal driving term.
I realised that one pedal driving is not efficient because drivers misuse it. If you keep the accelerator pedal steady, you are actually coasting, but the moment you release it, regen is immediately engaged. No option to disengage regen.
Regen is not efficient because it is energy conversion from mechanical to electrical and then to chemical. You lose up to 20% in total. One pedal driving encourages drivers to regen because it is tiring to keep our feet at the pedal. Once you regen, you lose speed rapidly, i.e. decelerates. Deceleration is also uncomfortable compared to coasting.
Once you lose speed, you lose another 20% to covert from chemical to electrical and to mechanical, using normal drive. Not really 20%, should be just 10% because drive circuitry is more efficient than regen circuitry.
I hope people understand these principles so that they can maximise the efficiency of EV. One pedal driving is convenient and safer, but is less efficient. I am still undecided on whether to promote one pedal driving because it incurs additional costs. Sam suggests one pedal driving as a worthwhile option but it involves additional costs that are not necessary.
We should thank Porsche for raising this issue. As far as safety is concerned, cars should be equipped with active safety systems that can stop in an emergency.
Hi Sam, greetings from the U.K. There is no arguing the physics that regenerative braking is more energy efficient than friction braking. However, I think some confusion arises from the implementation of this. My BMW i3 has strong ‘one pedal driving’, I rarely need to use the brake pedal, but when I do, the mechanical brakes are engaged - the advantage of this is the driver knows what system they are using; lift off the accelerator and you are using regen, press the brake pedal and you are engaging the mechanical (friction) brakes. Some EV makes utilise a different system, where regen braking is activated via the brake pedal, which then transitions to friction braking if pressed harder. Personally I find the BMW i3 approach better I.e. one pedal driving, but I can see why some like the ‘hybrid’ approach to what the brake pedal does. Either way, the important thing is that as much retardation is provided by regeneration as possible, and that friction braking is reserved for necessity only.
Once you get used to it, one pedal driving is the future. Have a model y performance and would never go back!!!!
I drove my Tesla Model Y to the top of a mountain in South East Queensland, Mount Springbrook, top is 330m or in the old language, 1000 feet from top to bottom. At the top the battery charge was 40%, drove down with one pedal driving, watched the battery charge go from 40% to 45%. You only need to use the brake pedal rarely, if at all, to slow down or cruise down a mountain descent you generally only need to release the drive pedal to regenerate energy back into the battery. Go figure Porche 🤷🏻♂️
Note that on a vehicle with blended braking such as a Porshe, when you touch the brake pedal it first activates regen braking, and only uses friction brakes as a last resort. Maximum regen on vehicles with blended braking is available through the brake pedal, and pressing the brake pedal does not mean applying friction braking.
You're confusing regen braking with one pedal driving. A Taycan would have done the same thing, it still has regen. It's just activated through the brake pedal instead of off-accelerator.
@@GregHassler This is happening more often these days. Also Viking has them mixed up quite often. One-pedal-driving is something different than regen braking. It's possible to implement one-pedal-driving without regen braking and it is also possible to have regen braking without one-pedal-driving. I'd hazard a guess that all EVs not offering one-pedal-driving, in fact use regen braking.
I used to drive a leaf, back when they only had 140km range. I'd get more range by putting the car in neutral when going down hills on the highway because it had regenerative braking. Coasting is much better. I now have a Tesla with enough range that I just don't care. Recuperating energy going downhill isn't as efficient/equivalent to the distance you'd get had the regenerative braking not been slowing you down.
As someone who has driven an EV for the last 8 years, I can tell you this is a question of semantics. One pedal driving does not mean the driver removes all pressure on the accelerator. It isn’t a binary on or off condition. It is certainly possible to not waste kinetic energy with regenerative braking. In the summer, I can modulate the pressure applied by my foot on the accelerator when approaching a red light to stop perfectly on the stop line without touching the brake pedal. The key is modulating the accelerator to vary the regeneration such that you slow down continuously. While the car is decelerating, a good chunk of the car’s kinetic energy is converted to electrical and then chemical energy stored back in the battery. If I use the normal brakes, all that kinetic energy is wasted as it is converted to heat which has to be dissipated by the brake rotors. In both cases, total energy is conserved but in the first case, the battery energy is available to propel the car after the car stops. My car’s brakes’ rotor and pads had minimal wear after almost 100k miles. They’ll last the life of the car.
They are 100% correct. I have tried all options in an ioniq 5. Coast where possible and regen if necessary, brake as a last resort for maximum efficiency. One pedal driving is great in built up traffic for convenience.
Engineer here.. Porsche is right, but only if you compare it to using the brakes as little as possible and driving frugal enough to let the rolling friction slow down the car as much as possible.. ie. take your foot off the accelerator entirely 700m before an anticipated stop and ever slightly ease on brakes around 300m.. chances are, by the time you arrive, lights will have turned green/traffic will have already started moving again.. you're already going half the speed limit, wasted no energy thru regen and don't need to spend much speeding up from a complete stop again. In a petrol, this can wipe ~35% of consumption.. it's less drastic in an EV because the regen helps, but you're still better off having regen on really low.
If it doesn't have one-pedal driving, I don't want it. I LOVE not having to touch my brakes most of the time in my Volt. Wish it were stronger and brought me to a stop... I guess if you want your EV to drive more like a gasser 🤷🏻♂️ The number of times I want my car to coast/sail is zero.
Do not not car comes to a stop from regen braking alone. Trye one pedal driving means even activating the friction brakes without touching the brake pedal. The opposite to blended braking as used by Porsche where the brake pedal activates regen instead of friction when possible.
I drive the Volt, but my ex wife got a Bolt. She lets me drive it occasionally, and it's a much nicer car than my Volt, and has one pedal driving.
My 1951 Studebaker had a "free-wheeling" (coasting) feature, but it was given up as a bad idea. It was argued that coasting resulted in some loss of control, especially on steep hills.
polestar implementation is great , it gives you all options ! pick your way / one pedal , two pedal , blend braking , creep .. it has em all. one pedal driving is great way to drive smoothly .
You just said it. The reason they don’t include 1 pedal driving is because they want to continue to make those expensive brake, rotor disc repairs. 😂
Thought so too but then read R Hassen's comment above claiming that due to their design "You are almost never in the brakes".
Great point. Porsche LOVES expensive maintenance and repairs.
just had my VOLT inspected today, and after 8 years, the brake pads measured 11/32, still have not had any maintenance spending other than a quart of oil for the generator and tires.
@@nick0126 Braking is for sissies, anyway
Stepping on brakes does not mean no energy recuperation. There should still be recuperation unless you step on the brakes so hard that traditional brake pads is activated. If you apply brakes gradually, the braking should generate energy recuperation similar to one pedal driving.
Coasting is more efficient than slowing down using regen and accelerating again. Regen is more efficient than physical braking, but regen is less efficient than just coasting (when coasting is possible).
I use OPD, but I use it for convenience, not efficiency. I can turn it on or off, I am surprised that Porsche don’t provide the same option.
Agree with Porsche. For my type of driving, coasting is most effective, as I mainly drive country roads and motorways. Had BEV from 2014 then with forced One pedal, for 5 years. Will not have One pedal again, likes to drive. Now have family BEV with AWD and can be driven without One Pedal and determine regeneration manually via Paddles behind the steering wheel. Especially in winter/icy roads, it is nice to be able to handle the car yourself.
I disagree with Porsche. I had no trouble coasting with one pedal driving. With two pedal driving, you are literally just doing with two pedals what you can do with one.
I too agree with Porsche. In addition, what is stated here is true for Tesla as it does not have energy recuperation when braking while the majority of brands do have blended brakes where energy recuperation is restored in most braking. I think one pedal has its followers as do detractors. I don't have a BEV but I do have a RAV4 Hybrid and I NEVER place the selector for maximum regeneration except in very select instances and I would hate to have one pedal all the time.
@@elmojito you probably need to drive an ev with one pedal for a couple of weeks before you can be sure about that.
@@elmojito Finding it difficult to belirvr that Tesla do not use blended braking - but can anybody else confirm that?
@@vic321344 I think you confuse the fact that not having one pedal drive means you cannot slow your car down with regenerative braking. In fact, the Porsche way comes natural for those of us that are used to driving manual transmissions where you downshift to slow down in inclines or bad weather, or even to reduce speed in a traffic light. And if you have the levers behind the wheel even better.
It is simple. High regen settings are more efficient than low on EVs without blended braking, but lost regen from the throttle pedal is most efficient if you do have blended braking. Can point to more thorough explanation if anyone wants.
If we are to argue that Porsche should offer an option between brake pedal regen and one pedal driving, then I think we should apply the same argument to Teslas. Although I like one pedal driving, I would like the option for coasting and regen braking in my Tesla. I also suspect that coasting and regen via the brake pedal is slightly more efficient than one pedal driving, if done properly.
Porsche engineers are correct for reasons they've already given you and in other comments.
Average losses during regen are 30-40% so whenever you lift off the accelerator pedal, you start losing 30% - 40% of the kinetic energy you're converting to electricity. As already mentioned by Porsche, when you press the brake pedal your EV uses regenerative braking anywhere and only incorporates mechanical braking during heavy/harsh braking or when the car speed is too low for meaningful regen. In a nutshell the most efficient way is 1. coast as much as possible(reduce regen losses)
2. Avoid harsh braking(eliminate mechanical braking)
Personally I prefer BMW's approach with Adaptive regenerative braking which varies according to situation (traffic and location) plus an easily accessible B mode (one pedal) for city driving.
I like one pedal driving, but there are times coasting would be better. Especially were I drive in the mountains…
The people saying that the position of the pedal needs to be super fine-tuned to coast with OPD - NO. This would be the case if you had zero drag (think magnitic levitation rails on the moon - no road fiction, no atmospheric drag), or when going down hill at the perfect angle to counteract the drag of the vehicle, or if you want to slow down at the exact rate of drag, or accelerate at the exact rate the car naturally would when you're going downhill. Otherwise, you're always adding energy to hold speed, or slowing down. If you coast for a bit (zero energy added or taken away), you're loosing speed that needs to be boosted up periodically, whereas if you trickle that energy in to maintain speed you end up using the same amount of energy, or slightly less since more acceleration requires more energy. So "coasting" with OPD is just giving that tiny boost to maintain speed, whereas "coasting" without OPD is gradually slowing, then boosting back up, then gradually slowing, then boosting back up. With OPD, when you put your foot down to the point you're going the speed you want, when you go uphill it boosts power and when you go downhill it regens to keep roughly that speed. It's like setting a thermostat. Two pedal driving is like manually controlling the temp - turning it on and off yourself as you get too cold or too hot. There's not really a "right way", but one-pedal driving doesn't need the finesse some people think it does and it's definitely more efficient. I live in an area that is super winding and hilly, so you're always switching from acceleration to deceleration, and the one-pedal driving is especially dreamy here. Dialing in the exact speed is always super easy, whether going uphill or down, and transitioning from braking to accelerating is buttery smooth with zero effort (eg hitting the apex of a corner and accelerating out) because you're just gradually pushing the pedal forward until it organically makes the transition on its own.
In my Mach e you can feel an immediate drag on the car when one pedal is engaged. It is much better to turn it off and only allow regen during braking and as much coast as possible. With one pedal driving, it is a constant draw on the battery to move forward. This leads to higher energy usage.
Porsche is correct when they say that coasting is more efficient than braking or regenerative braking. However, this is no contradiction to One Pedal Driving ! Of course it is possible to Coast when using One Pedal Driving and on top of that, One Pedal Driving is much more comfortable. For me personally one of the most important features. My Idea is that Porsche has always been an ICE company and some people within this organization can not get rid of the thought that cars urgently need mechanical brakes (and ICE motors). So don´t let people get too comfortable with One Pedal Driving and find some good arguments...
I cant imagine coasting to stop or scrub speed fast enough. The only time I need to 'coast' is when I want to scrub a wee bit of speed when I am coming up to other cars. I let up on the throttle a little and the car stops using energy and I coast a little. I just cant see where all this coasting is suppose to take place.. or did I miss the point? lol I might have.
I fully agree with Sam. The laws of physics can't be denied not even by Porsche.. Its energy conservation. You put energy into the vehicle with the right foot and change that energy to heat with the brake pedal which is then dissipated into the environment along with brake dust.
Regen recovers some of the input, what is lost is the result of aerodynamic drag, mechanical and tire friction which is also lost in an ICE vehicle.
Porsche isn't using any more hydraulic brake than Tesla.
Thanks for the video. However Porsche are correct. My EV has paddles to control the amount of regen, I drive in zero regen mode and use the paddles to slow down, the brakes are only used for 1-2 secs to bring the car to a complete halt, it is a very easy learned habit and works well for me. The brakes are of course blended, so slight braking applies regen, but does not activate the pads, only heavy braking applies the pads as well as regen.
You need to maintain momentum/kinetic energy, one pedal driving in my EV applies regen as soon as I lift off the pedal, yes, you can try and feather the pedal to simulate coasting, but my experience is that one pedal gives me lower efficiency.
As in Prius Prime, when you break, it actutally use the regen system unless you floor it, which is very rare; same for Telsa drivers who use the break pedial in emergency strong breaking. It may save energy to use coasting and use regen using the break pedal.
When I use coasting I get about. 0.2 to 0.5 more miles per kWh. My Bolt has regen on the brake pedal, and medium and high regen on the accelerator (via shifter), so I have to shift to N to coast.
In the UK it was or still is, illegal to freewheel or coast in a motorcar. For me, the best of both worlds should be offered in an EV, as certain slight inclines are great for coasting down and would not produce any meaningful re-gen. Hope all is going ok for you all in Vietnem, regards
Porsche assume that you're either pressing the pedal or lifting right off. They don't understand gently lifting a bit to coast.
I'm on my third electric or plug-in hybrid. My Ford Fusion Energi did regenerative braking and probably recovered 80+% of the kinetic energy back to the battery. My 2017 Volt, using the paddle probably recovers 90+% of the kinetic energy back to the battery. I still have it and have to step on the brake at about 3 MPH to stop. I think the paddle recovers more electricity than stepping on the brake because it is explicitly regen only. My Model Y with one pedal driving recovers a lot, but even the one pedal driving may use brake pads a little bit. What can hurt a Tesla's mileage with one pedal driving, is if you drive jerkily, speeding up one second and slowing down the next. Regeneration always involves energy loss; the more jerkiness, the more loss. I'm still learning how to be smooth while using one pedal.
The real question will be can the Porsche travel at 65 MPH on LA freeways while only using 237 w-h/mile? If yes, Yay for Porsche; if no, boo for Porsche. Porsche could be right, but efficiency will only be achieved applying many fine points of engineering. These engineering approaches are all about equal.
For the Hyundai eGMP EVs that are all wheel drive, their one-pedal drive mode requires automatic continuous activation of both the front and rear motors, which reduces efficiency compared to their available non-one pedal drive modes, which disconnect the front motor when only rear wheel drive power is necessary. In these cars the most efficient way to drive is to actively switch in and out of one-pedal driving mode on the fly as needed, using one-pedal mode only when you are braking to a stop, to prevent or minimize accidental unnecessary activation of the friction brakes, and then deactivating one-pedal mode when you get moving again.
My wife has a Taycan and I have a Model Y. I much prefer 1 pedal driving!!!
Our Mazda MX5 sport car convertible has regenerative braking also and I just downshift on the 6 speed gearbox to further reduce wear on the brakes.
Everyone should know that driving smoothly and anticipating traffic to maintain momentum and minimise regen and friction brake use particularly maximises efficiency. Tesla don't use blended brakes so my muscle memory learns the regen braking characteristics and my driving adapts to maximise it's use while maintaining momentum. Blended brakes hide the changeover point so you don't learn the regen characteristics of your car. It's very efficient, I can get 110Wh/km on a 30 minute commute if I drive efficiently You can coast, you just adjust your nett energy recovery to zero. Tesla have an energy bar that helps.
It's not and either/or thing. I don't like one-pedal driving, but I rarely use the brakes on my e-Niro. The left paddle will bring the car to a stop without touching the brakes, but I have the option of coasting. Whether accelerating or decelerating, the power conversion will have an efficiency loss (even though Regen braking recovers energy). Coasting is effectively a perfect option because the only loses are due to wind and rolling resistance - you get distance for free!
Here is why Porsche is correct: when you coast you allow your kinetic energy to keep pushing you forward. If you regen, then you are converting kinetic to electric potential energy to the later convert it again to kinetic energy to drive your car forward... Get it?! Any time you convert an energy from one form to another you inherently will waste some of that energy. Therefore, a regen and later use adds two steps of energy.
Read about the BYD 'No-pedal' driving at the bottom here.
I would like to add some information regarding the misunderstanding with BYD Atto 3 regenerating braking. It is true that it does not come to a full stop. But the braking or speed reduction is possible to adjust to a high level. Depending on your driving style, this is very efficient. I admit that during my younger days, I probably would be using the gas, brakes and change gear more frequently. But today - adapting to drive a more "soft" way, I really love the Atto 3's softer speed reduction. One pedal driving is no problem, rather very comfortable. That I have to brake just before it almost stop (it doesn't stop by itself 100%), is okay, no problem. I am in the car anyway, so I can do the last 5 seconds of braking myself.
But there is an option I tried out yesterday, driving for 5 hours. The 'no-pedal' driving. It is so smooth and comfortable and safe, I am honestly really surprised how well BYD has managed to set this up in the Atto 3. First I set the cruis. Then I set the distance to the car in front. It has to be 3 seconds behind the car in front according to Norwegian law - and it is on the Atto 3. Then I just drive/cruise in my set speed until I reach this 3 second distance behind another car. Then no matter speed, my car follow his car. In 90 km/h - down to 70 - up to 90 again, down to 40 km/h, or if he brakes more, it still follow. Accelerate, does everything. Well, when this car in front leave, the Atto 3, reduce speed and drive carefully past it, and accellerate back up to the previous set max speed. Until it find the next car, and follow that one 3 seconds behind. A Atto 3 is a real 'stalker'!! :))) But so incredibly comfortable. No-pedal driving!
Do note that when driving without using cruise, which is when the 'regen' setting applies, the higher regen setting will be less economical than the standard one on a vehicle with blended braking such as the Atto 3.
@@onefiniteplanet Okay, so be it, but it's extremly comfortable.
Hi Sam. I think you miss the idea that porche brakes are NOT connected to hydraulic system directly. Rather, the brakes are input to the braking software. As such, any touch to the brakes generate maximum regen before seamlessly engaging hydraulics. By disconnecting the motors for ANY length of time, you are eliminating that frictional drag and saving energy vs Tesla’s system of regen where there is no coasting time possible (assuming you have regen on of course). Interestingly, In Tesla’s system there is no regen ever added by pressing brake pedal, whereas in porche system there is no regen ever added when releasing accelerator.
I didn't know Tesla's don't do regen when pressing the brake pedal. If it's truly configured this way it is a major design flaw when it comes to efficiency
Edit: I looked it up and Tesla's only regen with the release of the gas pedal. Porsches system is a way better design. I hope Tesla allows a choice via the software in the future to adjust how much regen happens when you step off the accelerator then applies remaining regen potential via the brake pedal and only engages the mechanical brakes after no more regen is available. Tesla's current design is a disaster for peak performance driving as the car will continue braking when you lift off the brake pedal and you need to create a balance between how much regular brakes are used, what the regen brakes are doing, and the timing to be able to lift off the mechanical brakes prematurely so you can reach the accelerator pedal before the regen takes too much speed off the vehicle.
@@Ry-lx2kl well, you usually don’t even use the brake so it is not too much of a disadvantage.
@@abspasadena I'd agree in normal driving it's probably not that big of a deal in terms of efficiency. However in performance driving, which Porsche is oriented towards, a one pedal system is problematic. You have to release your brake pedal early so when the regen continues to brake as you move to the accelerator pedal you don't scrub off more speed than you intend to.
@@Ry-lx2kl good point. For performance drivers, Porsche system does seem better.
Sorry Viking, you are totally wrong! I’ve been driving a Taycan for over three years and don’t like single pedal driving. The great thing about the Taycan (that you are totally missing). Is pressing the brake pedal IS controlling the re-gen braking, rather than using the friction brakes. In fact, the only time friction brakes are used is at the start of a journey to clean the discs, or for very heavy braking at low speed -re-gen not efficient then. And why do I think the Porsche approach is more efficient? As you come off the accelerator the car goes into coast mode until the brake (re-gen) pedal is pressed so no undemanded braking results. . . Every time I drive a Tesla, or my wife’s electric mini, the single pedal driving gives me more brake demand than I need.
You do realize that you can coast in a Tesla right? You just depress the accelerator so that it is in between power and regen. Obviously if you want to come to a stop, regen is more efficient
This is 100% accurate
many people probably think regenerative breaking is synonymous with one pedal driving. I was going to suggest a solution like you described until I read your post that the Taycan has it! 😄
Edit: I do agree with the viking though that giving ppl the option is a good thing :)
He even said that the physical brakes only kick in below 5km/h or if the motors can’t take any more regenerative braking. Shame, I really like this channel but this misses the mark. Some people just don’t want to use 1 pedal driving. Thats consumer choice
Viking is wrong about that but so is Porsche. You can coast with zone pedal driving. This fact invalidates Porsches entire argument.
I like the one-pedal driving mode in my Model Y when driving slow in traffic or in a parking lot. It provides quicker response and more control for maneuvering around other cars. However, I find it a bit difficult to maintain a constant speed on the highway and I tend to accidently speed up a bit and then have to slow down. Slowing down with regenerative braking is pretty efficient, but there is some loss, so a steady speed would be more efficient overall. I think the algorithm could be refined to be a bit "sticky" at higher speeds. I.,E. require a slightly larger accelerator pedal movement to to speed up at higher speeds. Slowing down at higher speeds could also be a bit sticky, provided the cameras and AI don't see anything dangerous happening ahead. Stickiness would make it easier to maintain a steady speed. Based on the steering feel, I think they already have a similar sticky algorithm for steering assist, as it is easy to steer a straight line or a smooth path through a curve.
Here’s the facts. Published EPA combined cycle efficiency for Taycan = 279 Wh/km. Tesla Model S = 175 Wh/km. The cars have similar mass (2,200kg). The Tesla has a 10% better drag coefficient (0.208), though that wouldn’t explain the 60% difference in efficiency. But what's really interesting is the Tacan has lower efficiency on city cycle (295 Wh/km) than it does on the highway (265Wh/km). This is opposite to most well designed EVs. The fact that the Taycan performs so poorly around town points to an inferior energy recovery system, i.e. too much coasting and friction breaking.
You are recuperating energy but that energy needs to be converted twice to put it to use again, and that doesn't come free. From the simple question of energy efficiency they are right, the amount of energy you recover and can put back to use is less then the original momentum you had in the first place.
Granted its only clear cut when you want to keep moving forward, a rather complex deep dive is needed to see how efficient it is from the whole driving experience.
Yes, this is correct. There are losses when converting the original kenetic energy into battery charge and losses when converting that battery charge back into kinetic energy. That said, I think that coasting is also possible with one pedal driving but it takes a more skillful feathering of the accelerator pedal to achieve the same result.
Newton’s first law of motion says that an object will remain in uniform motion unless acted upon by a force. So, neglecting friction and air resistance, a car that is travelling at, say 50 km/h, will continue at that speed indefinitely on a flat road. This is the benefit of coasting. It will not use any of the battery's charge. An example can illustrate this.
Case 1: An electric car accelerates to, say 50 km/h over x metres using c kWh, and then the foot is removed from the accelerator and the car decelerates to a stop under regenerative braking in y metres. The distance covered is x + y metres and let's say the regeneration is r kWh. The net electrical usage is c - r kWh
Case 2: The same car accelerates to 50 km/h over x metres, and then is allowed to coast at 50 km/h for z metres using no electricity. Next, the car is allowed to decelerate to a stop under regenerative braking in the same y metres as in Case 1. The amount of energy usage for acceleration remains at c kWh and the regeneration remains the at r kWh and the net usage is still c - r kWh. However, the distance travelled is greater at x + y + z metres, meaning that greater efficiency has been achieved, i.e., fewer kWh/km.
You can also coast in 1-pedal driving by holding the pedal in the right spot.
Can you actually feel the right spot? If you can't, you're actually very much in danger of doing what Porsche is warning for: inadvertently switching between applying power and regen alternately, thereby causing twice the losses.
1st: You're right, customers should have the choice.
2nd: Coasting is more energy effecient. However, without driving like your Grandmother, or me, coasting in city driving is not so practical. And from what I can tell, EV driver just prefer 1 pedal drivng.
More likely trying to give their dealers some work to do.
Best EV milage. Cost on level or slightly downhill. Use varying regent to slow or stop. This is easy in the Ev6 with 4 levels of regent 0, 1, 2, 3 and max. 2 pedals on the steering wheel shifts levels up and quick and easy. At 0 car will coast a long way without losing much speed esp if slightly downhill. Often for fun I will play with the pedal and gain 5 to 15% more range over max regen one pedal driving
They also think having two gears is better lol
One pedal driving is technically not that different than two pedal, its just another philosophy, on the first part of the brakepedal you have regen braking and the mechanical brake starts on the second part, so also in a taycan you can drive without the mechanical brake, its just another kind of user interface.
As long as I have to consciously manage regenerative braking, there is an issue of optimality. Some EV allow the driver to set regen aggressiveness at different levels and the driver then uses the brake when deceleration is not fast enough. That's generally suboptimal. BYD solved this by connecting regen braking to the brake pedal. At some point of depressing the brake pedal the actual brakes work and up to that point regen increases. My guess is that this is nearer the optimum regen efficiency.
A couple of months ago I went to a Tesla dealership with a colleaguefor a test drive with the Tesla Model Y, and she also was convinced One Pedal driving is less efficient then using the brakes.
I asked the salesperson as I was sure it didn't make any difference (tests by Bjorn Nyland), but they confirmed what she said.
It's ... % less efficient then not having one pedal driving on..
This heavily made me doubt this salespersons knowledge of the cars he's selling, but didn't want to start a big argument.
Ofcourse it will be more efficient if you don't regen compared to if you do.
But if you have to brake anyway, its better to use regen to recup as much energy as possible.
And yes, most, probably all EV's will use regen first, and only if you ask more braking force then the max regen available, will the brakes kick in. Or at least that's what I've read / heard.
So does it really make a difference? One pedal driving or just using the brakes.
I don't think so, but I find it much easier and prefer One Pedal Driving!
Yes I agree with Porsche, I never use one pedal driving, it’s inefficient, every time I lifted my foot slightly off the pedal the electric motor braking engaged as opposed to the car coasting, which reduced efficiency. My car has blended braking so when I apply the brakes with the brake pedal the car uses electric motor regeneration first and only engages the friction brakes if braking hard, mostly all my braking is done using regen.
There is a bigger issue here, one pedal driving is in my opinion extremely dangerous. Becoming accustomed to lifting your foot to slow down will in emergency situations cause drivers to simply lift there foot off the accelerator pedal as opposed to pressing the brake pedal, it’s all about brain conditioning, subconscious reactions and is why pilots and astronauts train rigorously to respond instinctively.
To service it more!
Where do you drive that there are No other drivers on the road and you can do all this coasting? It's not the West coast of Fl, where pulling out in front of another car is standard even in the boonies. Really love when tourist pull out into 60 mph traffic and soft pedal it to 35mph. One pedal makes this so much more tolerable in real world driving. One pedal rocks!
It is only correct that coasting is more efficient in a theoretical Frame of reference. for instance you're able to perfectly predict the exact stopping location for each route you're traversing and you're able to coast to that stop rather than using regenerative breaking and creating any heat loss. That would be theoretically more efficient than utilizing regenerative breaking.
However, every practical use case will show that 1 pedal driving is going to be more efficient. It is impossible to predict every traffic pattern on every road every stop sign every turn given every road's pitch et cetera.
A freeway without differences in traffic speeds and patterns would be a good example of where porches correct
You misunderstand, they're not talking about coasting to a stop. If you need to stop, then stop. Any EV should use regen to do so. They're talking about minor speed adjustments on a highway, and the natural speed drift that everyone has unless using some form of cruise control. If the car "coasts" instead of immediately going into regen, it's more efficient. The difference isn't that large however, but coasting is provably more efficient.
Don’t know if it’s more efficient to coast, but I wish I could in my Tesla. Letting off the acc pedal sometimes especially on the highway would be nice when I’m not using cruise control.
you sound right, but I’m not sure if you are based on my experience so far. I looked this subject up because ,as an Uber driver who drives up to 200 miles a day, I’m seeing that coasting has been giving me better mileage in my polestar 2… so I was wandering if acceleration is uses a lot of energy, and regen breaking gives very little recharge, then your losing the distance you’d get from coasting and the energy you regenerated by needing to accelerate more often. Maybe? Just a thought
4:25 what they mean is the efficiency losses of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy while regen braking and then another round of losses when converting electrical energy back to mechanical energy. Porsche is absolutely correct on this one. I’m an electrical engineer.
Also, what Porsche means when they say you lose energy when going downhill in a car that has one pedal driving is that regen braking is less efficient going downhill than simply coasting. With all things equal, if two cars were going down hill and both started with 50% energy, the car that can coast will be able to drive a lot further than the car without the ability to coast due to inefficiencies. Every time the car regenerate brakes, it loses a small % of energy to convert the energy. That doesn’t happen with coasting. You want proof of this? Try skateboarding downhill on a regular skateboard vs an electric one.
Agree with other posters that Porsche are correct, but so minimal as to be irrelevant. If comparing to Tesla it doesn't matter because Teslas are more efficient generally so Porsche can't improve on Tesla even with a more efficient brake strategy.
Blending regen and friction braking has proven difficult in the past. Many reviews have reported janky transitioning between the two in cars that offered it. It may be Tesla decided early on to avoid the problem and now they've established a praxis that their customers expect to be maintained. They also get a redundancy advantage by keeping regen and friction brakes as independent systems, but again the difference is pretty irrelevant given how reliable both systems are.
OK, the taycan controls its re gen braking, with the brake pedal first, then applies brake. However Tesla's control re gen by releasing the accelerator. It is totally possible to coast in a tesla you just don't take your foot right off. When the green /black, acceleration /brake indicator shows nothing, you are coasting.
First time I have to disagree with you Sam and tell you that Porsche is right. What they mean is that the best way to use energy from your battery is by NOT using it compared to using it and then recuperating some back. That's where those two loses come to play. One is by powering the motor the second is by recuperating both processes are not 100% effective and never will be.
I have an EV for 3 years(2 years Model S and 1 year Model 3 ) now and believe it or not this is the way I'm trying to drive by not using the energy at all and by recuperating as little as possible.
That doesn't mean I use friction brakes I barely touch them at all. Which has it down sides but this is for another time...(brakes need more maintenance on an EV then an ICE car in cold climates!)
Example:
my style(what Porsche say): Driving towards a stop sign or a signal light where you see you have to come to 0km/h. I start slowing down as soon as I see the sign, just roll for 200-300m( as much as possible ) and then recuperate slowly, not using frictions brakes at all maybe from just the last 5->0km/h.
One pedal driving: you accelarate/hold the city speed limit speed until 50m in front of STOP sign and then use full regen. That means you were using energy on 150-250m were I was just rolling and then recuperating. Maybe your speed was a bit higher when you started recuperating but you used more energy that I did. And now the two losses come to play. Which I had also before but not for so long as I was just rolling and using the energy I already spent.
This of course has a down side. You may be slowing down traffic this way so I'm not doing this only if there is no one behind me.
And going back to luxury option the car should do this automatically, see and think ahead by not using energy. If you power the car for more then you have to you loose range, no mather how powerfull your regen is.
If one pedal driving is so inefficient, how come the taycan’s efficiency ratings are worse than the Model Y?
One pedal is irrelevant to this issue because its only the last 2 or 3 mph.
But Porsche are correct in that if you slow down through regen and then speed up again that is more inefficient than slowing down less so you have to speed up less.
There are too many people who think that regen is a magic way of getting more power. Its better not to slow down.too much On the motorway for example you want lower drag by coasting when you relax your foot on the accelerator rather than braking vi regen immediately..
Also, you can put your foot on the brake pedal that doesnt mean the physical brakes are used imemdiately, many cars blend physical and regen. If i press my brake pedal (Kia) you immediately can see regen is going on first and its only if you press really hard that the physical brakes are used. And in the case of non OPD, the last few mph that physical brakes come on.
I use mild regen in town and none on motorways but that doesn't affect what the brake pedal does it just means I dont immediately get regen when i ease off the accelerator it means i coast instead. Then touching brakes lightly regen then harder physical..All this without OPD.
Many of the people who think high regen from the throttle and one pedal driving is efficient, think that because they drive cars without blended braking like the Porsche, on the brake pedal and without that blended braking, you need one pedal driving or something to access high levels of regen.
Absolutely. Porsche is correct in their argument that it is better to use the vehicle's kinetic energy to keep it moving as opposed to using regen to put energy back into the battery, which incurs energy transfer losses. Of course, when you need to brake, regen is the most efficient way to do so. A blended braking system is ideal from an energy use perspective (unfortunately not all EVs have this, e.g., not in Teslas). In my MY, I find myself minimizing regen braking by "simulated coasting," whereby I gradually lift off the accelerator to slow down so there is almost imperceptible regen and then lift off the accelerator more to come to a complete stop. With drive-by-wire braking/acceleration, Tesla should be able to offer a blended braking option with a software update. Seems odd that they haven't done so.
This is why tesla recommends cruis control for the most efficient driving.
They want you to go through brakes quick and come for service. They are not playing with you. I love Porsche but cost of repairs and servicing will kill you. They make more money on services just like most OEM companies.
💯 Viking! If you drive your Porsche like it’s a Porsche you are never likely to roll to a stop but will be using the brake pedal. Anyhow, their claims should be easy enough to verify. Just drive a Taycan and a Model S side by side for one lap of Bathurst. Record the start and end state of charge and compare. My money’s on the Tesla 💵🤔
I can't believe you're arguing over the simple stuff that's already well established. Do the schools even teach kids anything anymore? Lol
@@dogefromthefuture and your answer is ?
@@dogefromthefuture i was wondering the same after reading Porsche’s statement. How can Porsche be so wrong about something so obvious?
I had 3 Porsches, the amount of time anyone is going to be driving as if they are in a race is small. Most Porsche owners use them for posing around or driving in normal traffic conditions.
@@williammeek4078 desperation?
I agree with Porsche. Set the regen to zero and coast. Read the road in front. Battery life goes through the roof.
I suppose they mean when using the brake pedal the car actually use regenerative braking with the motors. And the disc brake only engage in very low speeds or if you like emergency brake. So basically it’s no difference between using the gas pedal for slowing down with regen or if you use the brake pedal. That’s how the car I use works.
And if you then use the coasting setting instead of regenerative braking on the gas pedal you will have just a little less losses by coasting more. Compared to a little more deceleration and acceleration with the regen on.
Yes, 'twice the losses' of the car energy, Less the energy of the driver (both mental and physical). Besides, you can choose from the setting, if you want to save your own energy or the energy from your battery.
Lifting to coast does not have the losses of slowing down using regen and then accelerating back up to speed. You lose kinetic energy when converting it to electricity in regenerative braking then charging the battery then back from the battery to the inverter then converting it back to kinetic energy with the motor. Every energy conversion loses energy. If you can coast, you will not have the conversions and losses. Having the accelerator engage the motor and the brake pedal engage regen before engaging the brake pads with coasting in between makes more sense than constantly going between accelerating and regen. And the one pedal driving that takes cars to a complete stop also engages the friction brakes to take it to a complete stop and hold it there... it isn't all regen at slow speeds.
It is just what makes more sense to control the car, not which uses friction brakes more. Having the car coast on lift off and then use regen only when braking will reduce losses.
depends on the overall average speed which will correlate with inertia and how often you have to stop and start, so i could see a range of factors that could make constantly slowing down and starting up again inefficient... it's not impossible...
I don't think the agreement should be 1 pedal vs 2 pedal, the basic physical truth is that accelerating more/faster than necessary is inefficient, and decelerating more/faster is inefficient. As long as the vehicle utilizes it's kinetic energy to decelerate, it should be generally efficient. It doesn't matter whether that's from releasing the accelerator pedal or from pressing the "brake" pedal.
im looking at my Kona App , i use OPD all the time , its says average consumption 5.25 , driving distance 121.78 miles 12.20kwh .total energy consumption 49.05kwh , Average consumption 5.46mi/kwh ,Total driving distance 267 miles .recuperation 31.17kwh .
CATL is giving Chinese EV makers (Aiways, BAIC, Geely, GAC, SAIC, NIO, Li Auto, Huawei, Shenlan and Zeekr) a loyality rebate on batteries. But not Tesla, Ford and XPeng. Instead of $64,000 they only have to pay $27,300 per ton of Lithium carbonate.
Condition to get this rebate is that these EV makers buy at least 80% of their batteries from CATL.
Especially funny to see such comments from a company praising synthetic fuels for their cars. They are some of the lossiest things I know