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I'd say Hatsumi takes the fight if both were in their prime. Hatsumi was 5th dan in judo meaning he had his share of actual grappling and resistance against other athletes and martial artists. Tanemura might of hit some dudes with a flashlight and pinned them now and again. Being a cop in Japan certainly wouldn't be like being a cop in the west. I'm a bujinkan practitioner but the hero worship i see among so many of the students never sits well for me. I think up to his 60's, Hatsumi was an excellent teacher and good fighter. There is no need for him to be a god or undefeated, just a good teacher with the ability to pass on knowledge.. There is this need in the west, to find a godlike master to worship and go to for answers and guidance.. spiritual guidance even. If you don't think any of the old time catchwrestlers or bare knuckle boxers could have dusted some of these eastern masters, you are nuts. We are overly fixated on lineages, stories, and myths and seem to lose perspective and logic along the way.
Very accurate. I also spent decades training and teaching under both teachers. Polar opposites to say the least. Once you really get to know them both you can tell that Tanemura Sensei is very controlling but really believes in the result of discipline, where Hatsumi Sensei really believes in freedom and personal responsibility. Tanemura would say this is how it’s done and do it exactly like this or it’s wrong and will not work. Hatsumi would say here is an example of how it could be done start here and see what you discover on your own. Both teachers fully expecting you to train hard and develop what ever they show you back in your own dojo. At the very top of both organizations the Bujinkan has more loyalty and skill. The Genbukan has become unrecognizable to what is was in the late 80’s. I have not been back to Japan since Covid, but what I’m seeing from students that have been there since Hatsumi Sensei has handed the schools down, training has improved with at least the quality control and tightening up standards with still proving freedom to explore boundaries. What is an interesting conversation for me is what the legacy will be once both teachers have past away. What organizations will continue on into the future and let’s say in 50 years will they both be lost to history or in what condition will the remnants carry on?
i am lucky that here in belgium i have find a trainer that has knowledge of hatsumi tanamaru and haeys was one of the few people on earth who had the title of shibudu dojo cho and one of the 12 best figthers of the world last but not least on of the fifty best trainers in the world
I'd train with Tod Norcross if I could move to the USA, over training with Hatsumi. There are some fantastic instructors out there that aren't Japanese and have contextualized the art well.
Ive trained with Kacem and his teacher Ichizuka sensei for a day, both great in every aspect and nice and kind, and go really into technicality The day before that, I trained at bujinkan hombu, cant call it a training cause it was So overcrowded... but had some nice people, and hatsumi did some stuff where the opponent shihan reacted in such an over the top way sort playing along
A question. Would buying any of your books on Amazon be more beneficial for you or another website? I could better guess who the better instructor is possibly by the quality of the students each one trained. Thanks
1) Who is the best fighter? We will never know. Hatsumi during his younger years (around the time he authored the stick fighting book along with Quintin Chambers) was said to have been a very tough martial artist. I was told he already had dan ranking in judo at that time. It would not be fair to compare a younger Tanemura to Hatsumi. But, to answer the question, if we go back 20 years from today, I would vote that Tanemura might have been the better fighter. But again, no way to know. 2) Who is the better teacher? Based on my experience with Genbukan and Bujinkan, the Genbukan training was generally far more hardcore. I disagree with Anthony on his opinion here. But I understand that he had a bad experience overall. Where I trained, advanced students participated in different and longer training beyond the normal classes. In fact, it was some of the hardest training I've experienced.
You just cannot say someone goes crazy, just because he has different kind of socks on, or his trousers the other way around, or perhaps wears his pullover inside out ;D
Hi Antony thank you your insight on the 2. I don't know a lot about modern ninjutsu only the the same as the majority of people. But based on what you are saying I can understand why Stephen K Hayes went his own direction to suit the lifestyle of his fellow Americans. Hanshi McCarthy learnt Fujita Seiko stuff from Inoue Motokatsu.
Thanks again Anthony. Regarding whom would be the preferred instructor of ninpo, I would guess that the better instructor would have the ongoing reputation as the worst. All said and done, this is a stage of smoke and mirrors.
Hayes happened... American ideology tore the training apart! Then Hatsumi realized after teaching foreigners, mostly Americans, that they (we) couldn't grasp or understand the deeper aspects that make it all work. Even today, there's very few people that have the magic 🙏
No, we dont want a video on this. No one cares about your disconnected opinion. You thrive on controversy and drama, you might as well be mainstream news.@@AntonyCummins
I'm actually surprised that I agree with you on this video...mostly. I also desire to only have private lessons from hatsumi or his best students... anything less is just a waste of time. However, I think hatsumi, in his prime, would completely destroy tanemura in every way! Hatsumi had an Energy that simply couldn't be touched. Probably why Takamatsu gave the school to hatsumi and why tanemura fled Japan!
tanemura was more dangeres at te time , thats wy he went in millitairy ( instructor all aroud the world ). hatsumi new how to bring it to the people and how to live with are actions( because he is a mikkyo master to ) (mikkyo: is fundamental naturel human development. tamamura and hatsumi was left and right for takamatsu same training deffirrent outcome : so for out side fight tanamura, to servive it is hatsumi. outcome do the 2 styles and there you have the duality
Interesting vid. I really appreciate your humbleness and honesty. My impression is that once ninjitsu became americanised by Stephen K Hayes, Hatsumi became a bit greedy. A cultural decline occurred, in light of the fact he was unprepared for the mega influx of interest in ninjitsu as well as ninjitsu being by its nature stealthy, rather than loud and famous as in the consumer stereotypes that emerged and so a pursuit of an art began which it couldn't possibly survive. Ninjitsu cant have been the only great thing to decay as a result of "progression". Hatsumi just realised that he could exploit all these western people who would journey all the way to Japan to learn it. Stephen K Hayes' american publicity of a secret/clandestine martial arts practice made both himself and Hatsumi extremely rich and famous. Shame Hatsumi couldn't stay true to what he was even teaching by the sounds of it. That must have been very frustrating and disappointing for you, having been courageous/determined enough to go after it, only to discover what it had become! I can't quite make out what you are saying sometimes, due to dialect. Who would you possibly have trained with if you could make the choice again? Ben who?
Both are accomplished in the schools just a different way of teaching. Hatsumi mellowed some of the taijutsu and tanemura webt a bit unrealistic with backflips
The question is which fake ninja would I want to study under? Study what? Fake shit? As for a fight I bet everything I own that neither one of them could fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Antony has made the point before that even if the Bujinkan curriculum is not what it purports to be--authentic ninja techniques--that doesn't make it useless for fighting. It just makes it inauthentic historically.
@@christopherflynn6743 It does in the sense that the system itself is not "fake shit" anymore than boxing would be fake if someone made up a weird origin story for it. There's a real system of fighting there. The question is whether or not it's useful.
Neither do Aikidoists do real fights. MMA is closest though and top aikido, bujinkan and Genbukan guys would get absolutely destroyed by a legit MMA fighter in the streets. most objective martial artists would agree@@AntonyCummins
Why are you people so preoccupied with comparisons and making things antagonistic? It’s juvenile and small minded. Wish you’d grow up. I have practiced through Genbukan Ninpo bugei and Kokusai Jujutsu renmei for 15years and the school is good. I imagine Hatsumi taught good schools too. Evaluating a school by random experiences of a teacher is foolish.
Tanemura Sensei is more organized and methodical than Hatsumi. Even in his books, the material is better organized and the seminars are learned. Unfortunately, the Genbukan was atomized and is almost gone. On the other hand, the classes in the Bujinkan are cyclical, slow and there is no progress. Black belts know the same as average students, they only ascend for seniority, not for knowledge and worse, because they go on martial tourism to Hombu. Going there guarantees a Dan grade. There are black belts who know nothing of the invented curriculum of modern Ninjutsu.
@@graciestonewall9102 I am neither bitter nor am I a former student. That comes out of logic. How many Dojos were there in Florida ten years ago? How many were there five years ago? How many are there today? Today there is only one Dojo in all of Florida. Only one. In Lake Worth. How many are there nationally in the USA? There are 25 Dojos spread across 13 States. In relation to the American Ninja Boom, a gradual decline is evident up to this point. Only a few are interested in that topic, in that kind of Budo. NOT Ninjutsu real.
But he is preserving information with the idea that people after him can carry on shedding light on history whether he's right or not. He has put in a lot of effort on a subject regarding Japanese secrecy and it's helped develop the public dialogue. Definitely a net positive.
@@henrysteinberg8458 hatsumi trained under Takamatsu for many years but hatsumi lost his way and Tanemura branched off due to an argument between the two
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I'd say Hatsumi takes the fight if both were in their prime. Hatsumi was 5th dan in judo meaning he had his share of actual grappling and resistance against other athletes and martial artists. Tanemura might of hit some dudes with a flashlight and pinned them now and again. Being a cop in Japan certainly wouldn't be like being a cop in the west. I'm a bujinkan practitioner but the hero worship i see among so many of the students never sits well for me. I think up to his 60's, Hatsumi was an excellent teacher and good fighter. There is no need for him to be a god or undefeated, just a good teacher with the ability to pass on knowledge.. There is this need in the west, to find a godlike master to worship and go to for answers and guidance.. spiritual guidance even. If you don't think any of the old time catchwrestlers or bare knuckle boxers could have dusted some of these eastern masters, you are nuts. We are overly fixated on lineages, stories, and myths and seem to lose perspective and logic along the way.
Well Said
Very accurate. I also spent decades training and teaching under both teachers. Polar opposites to say the least. Once you really get to know them both you can tell that Tanemura Sensei is very controlling but really believes in the result of discipline, where Hatsumi Sensei really believes in freedom and personal responsibility. Tanemura would say this is how it’s done and do it exactly like this or it’s wrong and will not work. Hatsumi would say here is an example of how it could be done start here and see what you discover on your own. Both teachers fully expecting you to train hard and develop what ever they show you back in your own dojo. At the very top of both organizations the Bujinkan has more loyalty and skill. The Genbukan has become unrecognizable to what is was in the late 80’s. I have not been back to Japan since Covid, but what I’m seeing from students that have been there since Hatsumi Sensei has handed the schools down, training has improved with at least the quality control and tightening up standards with still proving freedom to explore boundaries. What is an interesting conversation for me is what the legacy will be once both teachers have past away. What organizations will continue on into the future and let’s say in 50 years will they both be lost to history or in what condition will the remnants carry on?
i am lucky that here in belgium i have find a trainer that has knowledge of hatsumi tanamaru and haeys was one of the few people on earth who had the title of shibudu dojo cho and one of the 12 best figthers of the world last but not least on of the fifty best trainers in the world
I'd train with Tod Norcross if I could move to the USA, over training with Hatsumi. There are some fantastic instructors out there that aren't Japanese and have contextualized the art well.
Ive trained with Kacem and his teacher Ichizuka sensei for a day, both great in every aspect and nice and kind, and go really into technicality
The day before that, I trained at bujinkan hombu, cant call it a training cause it was So overcrowded... but had some nice people, and hatsumi did some stuff where the opponent shihan reacted in such an over the top way sort playing along
What did you cook for dinner tonight?
A question. Would buying any of your books on Amazon be more beneficial for you or another website? I could better guess who the better instructor is possibly by the quality of the students each one trained. Thanks
Do Amazon and a review. That would be great
My favourite rubbish joke is ‘two parrots are sitting on a Perch, when one says to other, do you smell fish?’
Hahaha love it
I have trained in the various schools connected to hatsumi and shoto they are as legend goes related somehow and now Tanemura has the Genbukan
1) Who is the best fighter? We will never know. Hatsumi during his younger years (around the time he authored the stick fighting book along with Quintin Chambers) was said to have been a very tough martial artist. I was told he already had dan ranking in judo at that time. It would not be fair to compare a younger Tanemura to Hatsumi. But, to answer the question, if we go back 20 years from today, I would vote that Tanemura might have been the better fighter. But again, no way to know.
2) Who is the better teacher? Based on my experience with Genbukan and Bujinkan, the Genbukan training was generally far more hardcore. I disagree with Anthony on his opinion here. But I understand that he had a bad experience overall. Where I trained, advanced students participated in different and longer training beyond the normal classes. In fact, it was some of the hardest training I've experienced.
What's for dinner?
You just cannot say someone goes crazy, just because he has different kind of socks on, or his trousers the other way around, or perhaps wears his pullover inside out ;D
Antony throwing a bone and letting people fight 😃. Reminds me when we were kids and we used go fight over who's stronger batman or superman 😂
Superman is stronger.. Batman is smarter.. Batman, with prep time will win.
Hi Antony thank you your insight on the 2. I don't know a lot about modern ninjutsu only the the same as the majority of people. But based on what you are saying I can understand why Stephen K Hayes went his own direction to suit the lifestyle of his fellow Americans. Hanshi McCarthy learnt Fujita Seiko stuff from Inoue Motokatsu.
Thanks again Anthony. Regarding whom would be the preferred instructor of ninpo, I would guess that the better instructor would have the ongoing reputation as the worst. All said and done, this is a stage of smoke and mirrors.
This dude is one persistent fly. Too bad it lost its grip on the tail long ago.
Where would you rank Jinichi Kawakami among them ?
Good researcher
Interesting. I also have to impression that Hatsumi "went crazy" as you said. What year do you think his "madness" started?
Late 80s
@@AntonyCummins What do you think happened?
Hayes happened... American ideology tore the training apart! Then Hatsumi realized after teaching foreigners, mostly Americans, that they (we) couldn't grasp or understand the deeper aspects that make it all work. Even today, there's very few people that have the magic 🙏
Mate. That was good thanks.
I trained with some of the well known European sihan.. but never made it to japan.
Thank you very much. Can you email me.
Great video Anthony
What was name of recommend instructor…..Dennis?
Dennis Bartrum, i did a video on him called Best Bujinkan Instructor
There's no way to really answer your beginning questions without actually training under both instructors.
can you please do a video on why he has purple hair please?
much respect and best regards.
OSS
Rumor has it he dyed his hair after his wife passed who also died her hair that color.
Thanks is very interesting.
It’s a family feud. I understand that Hatsumi and Tanemura are (2nd?)
cousins.
i think so
@@AntonyCummins The plot of Karate Kid II!!
Thanks for sharing the video & information. We get 2 videos today nice 👍🏻
im going to start doing two videos on some days to catch up.
@@AntonyCummins Oh OK I was just wondering 👍🏻
Are there any high ranking female students / teachers of Hatsumi or Tanemura?
not that i am aware of
Natascha Morgan and Shiela Haddad in the Bujinkan to name a few
Can you do a video/commentary on _Kill Shots_ (Volumes posted on UA-cam) featuring Darryl Caldwell (deceased) and David Cost?
i could not find it
@@AntonyCummins ua-cam.com/video/n1sjBELJMp8/v-deo.html
Antony, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Hatsumi retiring and about the people he made Soke of the various 9 Ryu (as there isn't much out there).
Ok, i will make a video on this.
No, we dont want a video on this. No one cares about your disconnected opinion. You thrive on controversy and drama, you might as well be mainstream news.@@AntonyCummins
Being ignorant ( no irony) , which schools seems to you the most reliable in relation to filiation , realism despite Natori ?
i made Natori because nothing was reliable.
@@AntonyCummins even Katori, or any Edo period ones ?
First one here
I'm actually surprised that I agree with you on this video...mostly. I also desire to only have private lessons from hatsumi or his best students... anything less is just a waste of time. However, I think hatsumi, in his prime, would completely destroy tanemura in every way! Hatsumi had an Energy that simply couldn't be touched. Probably why Takamatsu gave the school to hatsumi and why tanemura fled Japan!
Rollo Armstrong?
The "Hatfield's and the Mc Coys" aren't a world wide thing feuding is an american thing
🔥
tanemura was more dangeres at te time , thats wy he went in millitairy ( instructor all aroud the world ). hatsumi new how to bring it to the people and how to live with are actions( because he is a mikkyo master to ) (mikkyo: is fundamental naturel human development. tamamura and hatsumi was left and right for takamatsu same training deffirrent outcome : so for out side fight tanamura, to servive it is hatsumi. outcome do the 2 styles and there you have the duality
Interesting vid. I really appreciate your humbleness and honesty. My impression is that once ninjitsu became americanised by Stephen K Hayes, Hatsumi became a bit greedy. A cultural decline occurred, in light of the fact he was unprepared for the mega influx of interest in ninjitsu as well as ninjitsu being by its nature stealthy, rather than loud and famous as in the consumer stereotypes that emerged and so a pursuit of an art began which it couldn't possibly survive. Ninjitsu cant have been the only great thing to decay as a result of "progression". Hatsumi just realised that he could exploit all these western people who would journey all the way to Japan to learn it. Stephen K Hayes' american publicity of a secret/clandestine martial arts practice made both himself and Hatsumi extremely rich and famous. Shame Hatsumi couldn't stay true to what he was even teaching by the sounds of it. That must have been very frustrating and disappointing for you, having been courageous/determined enough to go after it, only to discover what it had become!
I can't quite make out what you are saying sometimes, due to dialect. Who would you possibly have trained with if you could make the choice again? Ben who?
Both are accomplished in the schools just a different way of teaching. Hatsumi mellowed some of the taijutsu and tanemura webt a bit unrealistic with backflips
Any photos of you with Hatsumi or Tanemura?
No, it was 2004 and i did not have my first digital camera yet and i actually chose not to have one. However i think i am in one of hatsumi's videos.
The question is which fake ninja would I want to study under? Study what? Fake shit? As for a fight I bet everything I own that neither one of them could fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Antony has made the point before that even if the Bujinkan curriculum is not what it purports to be--authentic ninja techniques--that doesn't make it useless for fighting. It just makes it inauthentic historically.
@@sorenpx yeah don't care and has nothing to do with my comment
@@christopherflynn6743 It does in the sense that the system itself is not "fake shit" anymore than boxing would be fake if someone made up a weird origin story for it. There's a real system of fighting there. The question is whether or not it's useful.
@@sorenpx Go reread my comment man
No top-level MMA fighter has a background in Aikido, be real.
yes but no top level MMA fighter does real fights. They wrestle in a cage. Not really the place for the type of moves Aikido is after.
Fight as you train. MMA doesnt train to dodge rocks, sand in the eyes, and the like.
Broken bottles.. multiple opponents.
Neither do Aikidoists do real fights. MMA is closest though and top aikido, bujinkan and Genbukan guys would get absolutely destroyed by a legit MMA fighter in the streets. most objective martial artists would agree@@AntonyCummins
Top level MMA fighters are the best Jujutsu practicioners. They also apply the concepts of aikido better than aikido practicioners.
I chose Tanemura without knowing who he was. Anything Hatsumi related is pure larp.
Neither. You mentioned Rollo Armstrong as being a good Budo Taijutsu teacher.
They dispute a non-existing lineage...
Why are you people so preoccupied with comparisons and making things antagonistic? It’s juvenile and small minded. Wish you’d grow up. I have practiced through Genbukan Ninpo bugei and Kokusai Jujutsu renmei for 15years and the school is good. I imagine Hatsumi taught good schools too. Evaluating a school by random experiences of a teacher is foolish.
Tanemura Sensei is more organized and methodical than Hatsumi. Even in his books, the material is better organized and the seminars are learned. Unfortunately, the Genbukan was atomized and is almost gone. On the other hand, the classes in the Bujinkan are cyclical, slow and there is no progress. Black belts know the same as average students, they only ascend for seniority, not for knowledge and worse, because they go on martial tourism to Hombu. Going there guarantees a Dan grade. There are black belts who know nothing of the invented curriculum of modern Ninjutsu.
"Unfortunately, the Genbukan was atomized and is almost gone." - Explain....
@@ebrpanimalcontrolfieldoffi3184lol. Exactly. He's just talking out of his azz.
Probably coming from a bitter ex student
@@graciestonewall9102 I am neither bitter nor am I a former student. That comes out of logic. How many Dojos were there in Florida ten years ago? How many were there five years ago? How many are there today? Today there is only one Dojo in all of Florida. Only one. In Lake Worth. How many are there nationally in the USA? There are 25 Dojos spread across 13 States. In relation to the American Ninja Boom, a gradual decline is evident up to this point. Only a few are interested in that topic, in that kind of Budo. NOT Ninjutsu real.
@@kumashinobi8447 Genbukan is very alive and kicking! There is a Taikai in October in Japan more than 200 hundred people from all over the world.
😂 ahhh chooo
🥲🙂🙂🥲
Neither one. Both are poor examples of martial arts in general...
How did the Ninja get promoted by the Shogun? By keeping his head.
You don't have the knowledge nor the experience to talk about this.
😮
I do
But he is preserving information with the idea that people after him can carry on shedding light on history whether he's right or not. He has put in a lot of effort on a subject regarding Japanese secrecy and it's helped develop the public dialogue. Definitely a net positive.
@@BenEvans-lj7cb For how long did he practice in Genbukan or Bujinkan?
@@henrysteinberg8458 hatsumi trained under Takamatsu for many years but hatsumi lost his way and Tanemura branched off due to an argument between the two
You being a relative novice with a surface level understanding of martial arts doesn't inspire confidence in your opinions.
Who cares? All you do is complain about the Bujinkan. Spend more time promoting your own ryu if you believe it works.
Smh
You see a ton of bujinkan practitioners on youtube getting in real fights and loosing, but you don't see that with Genbukan practitioners
Do you have links to bujinkan students getting into fights and losing? Just one is all I'd like to see
@@glennoc8585 you must not be looking that hard, but I'll provide 3 links
ua-cam.com/video/rYQiPRUu7b0/v-deo.htmlsi=GVZc9Ca-ADr9XDAQ
@@glennoc8585
ua-cam.com/video/NWHIwlnOjmU/v-deo.htmlsi=LIE_C86zVSr65g-f
@@glennoc8585
ua-cam.com/video/AxPcpB_qHis/v-deo.htmlsi=E1v7hBfoF1o66RMF