The best deal right now is the Mac Studio M2 Max. Its the same price as the Mac Mini Pro Upgraded. But it comes with 30 gpu cores compared to 19 cores for the Mini Pro at the SAME PRICE 😊
As always, a very informative video. I really love how you do away with all the hype and endless bench mark tests, instead giving us real world scenarios. I got a 14" MBP with the 10-core/16-core GPU chip and it's an outstanding machine. I love working on it because everything runs so well (and it has a card slot!). I've been tempted to get a Mac Studio like you did (so I can keep the MBP mobile), especially as the price has been coming down after the M2 machines were released.
Thanks Mark! Ive watched this video 4 times so far as I am getting ready to move from my 2011 mini I7 server to a Mac Studio or M2 Pro. GPU has no effect on my decision, just performance cores for Logic. Ethernet doesn't seem to be an issue either. Given each would have 32 gig of ram and a 1 Tb drive. My choices are: M1 Max, 8 performance/2 efficiency OR M2 Pro, 8 performance and 4 efficiency. Im happy with my 2 Mac 20 in monitors. I will also need a new thunderbolt audio device as my Firewire devices will no longer work. Will I notice a difference between 400 vs 200 memory bandwidth? Ive been practicing with my M1 MacBook pro which has 8/2 cores and 16 gig of ram. Already excited! Im using Logic in Rosetta for now to accommodate some plugs and REX loop usage. Im not sure what issues Ill have with Ventura. Sad to see as your M2 went back as it was my first choice, but now you've got me back on the fence. Cheers again!
The Ventura thing for me was a worry as my IOS hardware is quite old and I am not sure how bothered Waves are to fix it quickly. I could move on from it.... but in the end I wanted the iMac Pro migration to new the workstation to be easier than it was proving to be.
21:47: using legacy smartphones for extra cameras (and audio recorders) -- What tips do you (or other viewers) have for moving the files around (air drop is easiest for me, since i'm out of hard drive and can't update my MacOS to permit sync via Apple Music iPhone management interface) and also for syncing audio or A/V, post-production? I'm very much in the consumer range of knowledge and equipment (using iMovie, iPhones, and a Zoom Q4N wide-angle camcorder w/ good audio capabilities, at the moment), and have found massive record speed differences between iPhone 14 and Zoom R16 multitrack recorder, for example.
Mark... You were one of the causes of my migration from Windows i7 based notebook to an M1 based MacBookPro 13". Just 12 months ago. I play keyboards live using a lot of VSTs. That migration was the best technology improvement of my life. I owe you a bottle of Barbaresco (local wine here in Turin, Italy)
Echoing the below comments - very thorough and sensible review, no hype. Although I don't regularly do photo, video or music editing, I am facing the same challenge in choosing between the M2 Pro Mac Mini and M1 Max Mac Studio - this insightful video is helping me lean towards Studio too.
@@MarkPayneAudio followed a suggestion, and bought a Mac Mini M2 in-store (8GB with 1GbE), to test out my usage - it served its purpose perfectly, helped me find 2 aspects that drove me to M2 16GB with 10GbE. Returned in-store within 14 days, and I know that my M2 will be fantastic. More people should use the in-store return, OR Apple should start stocking 16GB models 😂
By far the absolute best real world comparison software/hardware analysis UA-cam video I have watched to date, and I have literally watched hundreds, Bravo!
I run mostly Ableton 11 and can just about get by with my mac pro 3,1 8 core machine , but I’m finally looking to get a new machine for music / video , looking at the refurb market its a real toss up between a studio m1 max and m2 pro mini , both are similar price in the UK , but leaning towards the studio for its extra memory / ports , i think both can handle my audio workflow while standing on their heads so i dont really need the extra power of the M2 . Thanks for the video !
I just bought a new M1 max base studio. In dollar or pound equivalents I save 500 on the M2 max studio. So it was nearly the price of a M2 macmini pro base 16gb model but the max had 32gb stock and all those extra ports
I jumped on the Apple silicon bandwagon but my i7 8700k iMac out-performs the M2 Pro in Logic, with faster USB and SSD transfer speeds too and my MBP 2015 15" gives me better performance with live guitar plugins than the M2 as well. In my opinion Intel is still king when it comes to music production.
Did anyone catch all that? I got lost when he mentioned something about the rendering ZTE and coder xpc threads going into the CPU of the M2 Pro Studio and then back into the dropped framing which rendered the IUD and what was that again? And what was that about a black magic? This thing do voodoo???
I have a Mac Studio M1 Ultra and my husband has just bought the base model M2 Pro . To be honest it is true , in this case , for professional video editing of complex codecs , the M1 Ultra with 64 GBs of Ram offers a better solution . Still I put some of these projects and run the on the M2 Mac mini pro and I have been impressed on what this entry level machine can do . Considering the price gap however and the fact that 90 percent of users don’t need a fully spec Mac , I would suggest them , for quality price to stick to the M2 Pro instead of the Mac Studio . I was able to run all my projects on both systems and that quite shocked me . Considering all the plugins I use , from iZotope to Waves , I had not a single issue in Logic and FCPX did not drop a frame . No problems in other third party apps . For some graphic uses rendering was faster on the M2 Pro whereas the Mac Studio outperformed in rendering times . However my suggestion would be to go for the M2 Pro for most users
I am thinking about getting a Mac Studio M1...but also thinking that maybe in a few months would be a New Mac Studio M2....do u think the improvement would be worth the wait?
Great to see another video Mark and brilliantly summarised. I have the 14 inch M1 Max MBP and I've been looking at a replacement for my 2013 Mac Pro Trashcan which was my main office editing machine. I'm thinking the base M2 Studio will be more than sufficient. What Monitor do you use with your M1? Also good to see the wine tasting again!
I am still using a 27" old Thunderbolt Display. Its a shame as the iMac Pro's 5K screen is definitely better but that has gone now as I sold the system. By now my eyes have forgotten that I was better and the old one looks fine!
My intel mid 2010 does the same in logic. It obviously does not do the same in final cut or with video. But my speeds and track counts, plug ins using Universal Audio, Slate, iZotope etc..does the same if not better. I feel cheated because I have to buy all new kit to have some similar speed, but not necessarily better for my audio applications. An M1 (so far) doesn’t offer markedly better performance to warrant the cost. We’re talking seconds in terms of processing. I do understand video processing. But many movies and hit records were made on much lesser machines. My main point is I am being forced to upgrade a system that works great only to work with software that has to be written for a new format that isn’t leaps above. It’s frustrating.
Great insightful video. Very thorough and loved it. Very useful ACTUAL real world testing. This will help lots of people decide on what Mac will work best for their studio needs!
I made the same decision. For me, the bigger cooler was the reason: I can run the Studio on full load for hours while the cooler stays on minimal speed and the cpu barely reach 45C. Desktop compared to a Notebook? For me, it is my studio machine and the rack with my stuff doesn't go anywhere. A notebook would sit next to the desk, because I use my external monitors anyway. In a situation like this, the connectivity of a Mac Studio is more important than be able to move my computer around. But that depends solely on each and everyones use cases. As always: thanks for you realistic testing - the next time somebody shows me the 300+ tracks of the "Logic Benchmark" I will scream 🙂
I purchased for $50 an i7 2.6 2012 iMac mini maxed it with a 2TB SSD 16 Memory updates to Ventura and voilà…A BEAST OF A MACHINE STILL!!!!!! Loving my 30 inch 2K nicely saturated cinema display…came with all adaptors for $70…ALL FOR $120 DONE!!!
Shame the Mac mini M2 Pro didn't get much ,or any look in really, re the testing, It would have been interesting to see the same test(s) you did with it included. Good though you have highlighted an incompatibility with your audio hardware...could this vary with manufacturer? Or is it perhaps a simple Monterey to Ventura OS upgrade issue? Have you run Ventura on the Mac Studio M1 Max? Might want to tell Digigrid the issue as they say it is compatible with 13.0.1.
Hi PL. The Geekbench GPU and GPU tests for the M2 Pro were mine along with the BruceX test. However, I could not do the detail Logic and FCP tests as I took the system back to change it for the Studio. The audio hardware issue WILL vary with manufacturer for sure. It may have also been Ventura issue but you cannot downgrade a M2 pro to Monterey so I had no way of isolating that. Unlike when I first got into M1 laptops when I was prepared to ride the leading/bleeding edge curve as I had my stable studio system in Intel. As this system is replacing this I just needed it to work without fighting. I was fighting.
Thank you for this. Very insightful. Loved how the wine glass improved your personal human performance, lol. Hope you're still recovering well from the food poisoning. Do you think we would get different results if you had tested this in DaVinci resolve for example. The free version of Resolve does not have GPU rendering and a lot of people have jumped ship from Premiere Pro to Resolve for other reasons. So in such a situation given the lack of GPU rendering capability perhaps the m2 mac mini would outperform the m1 max studio? I ask this question because I am considering a purchase in summer but i dont use final cut and so i need to make an informed decision.
If you only are working with audio a 10 year old hackintosh running snow leopard will do just fine and the Base model Mac Mini M2 will be overkill. I got a bunch of hackintoshes even a six core xeon + newer and older 4 core hacks and a few weeks old Mac Mini M2 Base Model and the m2 mac mini rocks.
Any concerns about dust ingestion into the Studio. I flipped over a Studio at an Apple store and the amount of dust clinging to the bottom grill was pretty shocking. Seems like one needs to fashion an air filter.
I’m still using a 2015 MBP and now that I’ve started doing a bit of video editing on top of music, it’s age is really showing. I’ve been debating between all these options and I think I’m going to wait until the M2 MBP’s hit the refurb to see if the M1 MBPs get an additional discount. Then I think I’ll probably go for it!
Thanks for actually showing it in a production environment! This is the info I need to determine my step into Apple silicon from the i7 I’m running now. Thanks for this video.
New sub and thumbs up. I’m thankful for the time and energy you spent to make a wonderful comparison. I’m a video editor, and between my systems and work - have access to every iteration of the M1 chipset. For FCPX, I only notice a small difference between my base spec MBP14 M1 Pro and work’s full spec M1 Ultra with 128GB. There’s definitely a bottleneck in the software. Thanks again!
I am getting zero noise from it! nadda! Very strange as I have heard people talking about this too. Honestly I cannot see how a Mac Mini would be quieter anyway... the frames size is more compact and the cooling space is less?
Thanks for this. I wstched tge older videos you shot on the initial M1 machines, and they were VERY useful. I have been waiting for a M2 Mini for years, but when it was released i wasnt dead sure on getting it, vs the Studio or even a MB pro . In deed .. with Apple.silicon, it's not as advantageous to going for a.desktop , so.. maybe one should just gather a little more $€& and go for.the laptop. I'm still undecided there. I basically need Logic Pro to run a probably 35 to 50 tracks session, both Audio and Midi channels, with loaded-in PlugIns and virtual instruments. Mainly for writing & recording my music. I was thinking.of going with a 64Gb RAM machine, for future proofing.. Do you reckon that as overkill ? Thanks again Cheers from Portugal
@@MarkPayneAudio thanks for the feedback. When the M1 came out, i got a 14” MBPro with 16Gb RAM. I concluded that it wasn’t a great pick, if it were to be my Mac for the next 5 ..or 6 years. Evidently, back then, it was still running Rosetta, under Ableton and most of the Virtual Instruments i have. I have realized, that perhaps the 32G Mac Mini M2 Pro might cut it, in lieu of the M1 Studio (base model). I’ll probably wait it out a couple of months more.. and see if they put out anything new on the June conference. Thanks very much, once again Cheers from Portugal
When comparing the Logic Bounces at the end to the Intel chip ...... the M1 Pro appears to be about 18% faster (+49%) than the Mac Studio (+31%). The M1 Pro and Mac Studio are both using the same CPU, no? Just curious what you think might account for the difference.
I batted this away (hence the “lazy” comment on my own work!) That is not right is it? Needs investigation. Honestly by this time I was 8 days into making and editing this piece and I wanted to see the back of it!
@@MarkPayneAudio Ha! I can dig it! Close enough for Rock n Roll as we say. Just curious if you had any thoughts on why.... but yeah, sometimes you just need to be done with the project. All good. Thx for the informative vids.
Рік тому+1
Woah so nice review thank you Mark. Also, my new setup is Mac mini m2 pro 12 CPU -19 GPU with Huawei Mateview 28.2 screen. My future opinion is mac mini with apple silicon ipads gonna be winner .
Excellent! I would have kept the M2 Mini (like yours) had not not been for the issues with Digigrid IOS.
Рік тому
@Mark Payne Just give time for iOS. Last year I went few apple event in Apple Store.They exactly want and focused iPads. Also apple silicon iPads already ready for us. We just need some update for iPadOS. Normally I really dont like iPads but I don't know what was happening last year, now iPads seems like useful and more flexible when I far my desk.
Thank you very much for your very informative video. I’ve been on the fence with M2 pro and studio for weeks. I think going from a 2017 Mbp to a studio is right, considering my use case. I kept wondering if a M2 studio would come but by all accounts it’s going to be a Mac Pro so!
Glad it was helpful! I tend to not worry too much about what the "next thing" is likely to be. I kind of want to get on with it today. Of course there will be a M2 Ultra Super Studio at some point. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is NOW"
@@MarkPayneAudioI love your analogy! Well I’ve ordered it! Had a little Dutch courage last night 🍺 and pushed the button. I’m pleased I’ve finally done it as I’ve lost way too much time on YT going backwards and forwards. I think it’ll be perfect for me. Thanks again 👍
No I stayed with the M1 Studio. I am no longer full time doing production work and my UA-cam pieces have been more about my curiosity on how the platform works for creators. I am not so keen that I go out and buy new Apple stuff just to create content. Knock 20 years off my age (60) when I was still hungry for money and had more steam pressure in my ego and yes I would be all over this! However the YT thing has been a nice hobby but I think I have learnt what I needed to learn. Sorry this is long winded! I am sure there are younger, brighter and better looking people that will be doing this stuff :-)
@@MarkPayneAudio My dilemma is Apple. What Apple may choose to do with consumers holding onto older chipsets when they start rolling out M3 and M4 systems is unknown. Your videos were quite informative and are the only kind on UA-cam detailing exactly what the Apple silicon platform really is. What I learned after watching your videos is that the Mac Mini 8-Core system is indeed a quad-core machine, when only considering performance cores that is... and the Mac Mini Pro M2 10-core is a hexa-core machine and the Mac Mini Pro M2 12-core is a octo-core machine. Base model M2 Max studio is also an 8-core machine and the base Mac Studio Ultra, a 16-core machine. The more a consumer pays, the more performance one gets. Thank you again.
Really great to see the "Old" iMac Pro STILL holding its own against the M1 and M2. The upgrade choices are not obvious. This video helped greatly. Thank you.
thank you very much for this review, please, what would you recommend for music composition with a lot of orchestral VST instruments in Logic pro? I'm currently still working on my Imac pro 2016
Thanks for the great video!! I laboured over the decision between M2 Mini Pro and M1 Studio, and I also went for the studio. So I am relived to see where you landed. Any observations or thoughts regarding fan noise? It irks me that my Studio fan is always on... having used laptops until now where the fan only audibly kicked in under high load. Once I'm doing stuff is not an issue. But when I'm trying to silently think, all I hear is fan!! 😂
@@MarkPayneAudio I actually swapped the first Mac Studio I got as I was convinced it had a bit of a ~2k whine in the fan sound. Others have reported this phenomenon in some units. I think that the second unit I got is better. I might be making it all up in my head, but as you can perhaps relate, once you start hearing something it is hard to unhear it! May you continue to never hear the fan on yours! 😀
Thank you again for this video. I watched the one on Logic optimization for my mac book air M1 and it made it really fun with Logic pro 10.7.6. Now I am thinking it's time to move on from my Mac mini 2018 Intel. I am worried about mostly using orchestral sound librairies like Spitfire Albion One and those types of plug-ins and if I make the move I need to make sure it will be a good one. I notice you are testing the M1 max mini studio with a lot of mixing and mastering plug-ins and I am wondering if it is comparable to using orchestral sounds that requirr loads of Ram. Thanks again and hopefully you will put to rest any of my concerns. I am ready for the Mac mini studio M1 adventure.
Hi Mark..! This is an incredible video. Thank. you..! I am a filmmaker and I am planning to buy a Mac for film editing at the lowest possible budget. I am contemplating between a MacBook Pro M2 Laptop, Mac Mini M2 and Mac Studio M2. Which one of the would you recommend for film editing? My budget is about $ 2K.
Glad it was helpful! There are a lot of spec choices within the systems that you want to compare. Also remember in the Mac Studio M2 you are getting more performance for your $2k as you are not funding a screen. I am a fan of the 14" M2 Pro Marcbooks and I type on one now. However there is not enough screen real estate for long term video editing on it. My choice would be the M2 Mac Studio and a good screen of your choice.
Very informative video👍 The biggest issue I had with the Mac mini is that it only has a two pin power connector so no earth pin. Anytime I recorded high gain guitar the interference was insane. The only way round it was to connect an earth lead from the head phone jack to an earth point in my house. Not exactly convenient. I ended up buying a MacBook with the optional power extension lead which actually provides a ground and resolves this issue. God knows why Apple as standard doesn’t ground there machines. The studio I believe, does have an earth pin so does not have this issue.
@@MarkPayneAudio Good point! I didn’t consider that. In my case I needed to be grounded, but like you say, some scenarios may require isolation from ground.
Newcomer to your content but found this video fantastic. I have a 2020 MacBook m1 and am wanting to move to a Mac Studio/mini. I just use it for audio production via logic. Mac Studio base model seems like it would plenty for the next few years. Curious if you’d agree or recommend something else?
Your work flow needs a lot of bandwidth from RAM to push so many data streams efficiently and that's what M series chips do so well. Great Job showcasing it. I am very happy with the performance I'm getting from iMac Pro 10 core. I got it used at a great price, it has all the ports, screen, speakers, storage and ram I may ever need. I see how you may get bottlenecked in video production. Awesome video! Thank you very much. Active tasks like scrubbing, scrolling etc is what makes user experience great. M chips are super efficient here!
Indeed. Still love my iMac Pro 10 Core Xeon but I need its ££££ to pay for the Mac Studio! I will miss the screen. My older Thunderbolt Display is not as good.
@@MarkPayneAudio I do photography, so I will stick to Studio Display when it's time to buy the Mac Studio. A lot of people are happy with LG thunderbolt displays. By the way have you tried connecting the Mac studio with iMac Pro?
Great information. Can you tell me,, does an external Thunderbolt drive work efficiently running orchestral samples with the mac Mini or studio? I have been trying to determine whether a Thunderbolt 4 connection is suitable for that purpose. Do you run samples from your internal drive or an external drive? Thanks!
All my audio is running from external drives. I use Samsung T7 drives which are USB 3.2. These will pass data at around 600MB/s. At 48K and 24 bit, each sample needs 0.14 MB/s of disk data rate. so you could argue the SSD could support over 4000 samples concurrently
@@MarkPayneAudio THanks. That's good info. I realize you are doing a lot of live coverage. Do you also use samples in your general work? Thanks again.!!!
@@MarkPayneAudio Thanks again. I'm trying to do a build and the second drive for orchestral samples is a must for me and hard to get definitive answers, Thanks . I'll be watching!
@@MarkPayneAudio I had the base model M1 (8gb/256). Don't get me wrong, it's a great machine, but ARM is very limited (at least for me). Maybe in a couple of years..not for now.
@@alcoandy85 Before i sold the M1 i looked into the apps i use a lot to see if i could find them (or replacements) for linux. I was surprised how many apps are available for that platform, so i am happy to say i run Ubuntu now for a long time without any issues at all. I didn't expect it myself to be honest..but i like it!
Having a loaded Mini M2 Pro and a Studio M1 Max, I found the Studio would outrun the Mini on any longish FCP or Logic project. One critical not so little detail, getting the Mini or Studio with a 1TB SSD or higher will significantly improve disk IO performance. On the Mini you get 6GBps where the Studio gets around 5.5GBps. The extra disk IO perf adds up in a big way over time!
Hi Mario...In the FCP section I pay particular attention to disk IO rates. I have to say that I do not believe our machines suffer any bottle necks in disk I/o. 6GB/s vs 5GB/s vs even 1.5GB/s is so far beyond what we need, the argument cannot be made. I feel a detailed myth busting video in the making!
@@MarkPayneAudio , I respectfully disagree with the notion that disk IO performance is a “myth”. It is as important as compute power. IO bandwidth is on one side and compute metrics are on the other side of the overall performance coin. Interestingly, relative to the performance of current Apple Silicon, Audio is so tiny compared to video, we have reached a point where it’s hard to throttle a system’s IO with audio alone.
@@AlexVonCrank , I got that. Was trying to keep my reply brief. I disagreed with the premise, hence the qualifier. Even when using Logic, if you have instruments with deep samples (e.g. layered piano with long sustain and other like orchestral instruments), a fast SSD will make a very noticeable difference on large orchestral scores. A Mini with a fast SSD can make a huge difference in some types of audio work. It's particularly noticeable if you have less memory. A Mini with 8GB RAM having a 1TB SSD is still surprisingly snappy under memory overload situations because of the SSD and how well the OS starts swapping to disk. The 256GB SSD is something you will notice often due to how much slower it is.
Thanks George. 10 days of my life I won't get back! Anyway... we were talking about these findings on the Mac Studio vs the M2... Show Craig :-). I guess we need an M2 Mac Studio. Anyway... that's my machine bought for the next 5 years!
Insightful video, cheers! I’m just hesitant to pull the trigger on a Mac Studio w/ an M1 until it’s more or less confirmed that the Studio is on hold until M3 or M4 are out or is put rest for good. Don’t want to spend 3K on something that is replaced by something better for the same price two weeks later.
This is always the issue. You always wait for the next thing. I bought the latest thing (M2 Mac mini pro) and it did not play well with my other older things! Newer is not always better I guess.
@@Sergei__v True but if I am not mistaken, his primary point was that it didn’t play well with certain hardware. Was wondering what that hardware was exactly.
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The best deal right now is the Mac Studio M2 Max. Its the same price as the Mac Mini Pro Upgraded. But it comes with 30 gpu cores compared to 19 cores for the Mini Pro at the SAME PRICE 😊
Thanks for the info!
As always, a very informative video. I really love how you do away with all the hype and endless bench mark tests, instead giving us real world scenarios. I got a 14" MBP with the 10-core/16-core GPU chip and it's an outstanding machine. I love working on it because everything runs so well (and it has a card slot!). I've been tempted to get a Mac Studio like you did (so I can keep the MBP mobile), especially as the price has been coming down after the M2 machines were released.
Yes I love my MBP which is the same as yours I think. I also think a Mac Studio second hand would be a safe buy. I have seen a few about.
Yes I did look for a second hand one but at the time there were none from serious sellers for the right money.
Good Info ...M1 Max prices are pretty good right now...I was going M2 Mini Pro but not now ;-).....will you go to M3 ?
Probably not. I am happy with what I currently have. Its all doing what I need.
Thanks Mark! Ive watched this video 4 times so far as I am getting ready to move from my 2011 mini I7 server to a Mac Studio or M2 Pro. GPU has no effect on my decision, just performance cores for Logic. Ethernet doesn't seem to be an issue either. Given each would have 32 gig of ram and a 1 Tb drive. My choices are: M1 Max, 8 performance/2 efficiency OR M2 Pro, 8 performance and 4 efficiency. Im happy with my 2 Mac 20 in monitors. I will also need a new thunderbolt audio device as my Firewire devices will no longer work. Will I notice a difference between 400 vs 200 memory bandwidth? Ive been practicing with my M1 MacBook pro which has 8/2 cores and 16 gig of ram. Already excited! Im using Logic in Rosetta for now to accommodate some plugs and REX loop usage. Im not sure what issues Ill have with Ventura. Sad to see as your M2 went back as it was my first choice, but now you've got me back on the fence. Cheers again!
The Ventura thing for me was a worry as my IOS hardware is quite old and I am not sure how bothered Waves are to fix it quickly. I could move on from it.... but in the end I wanted the iMac Pro migration to new the workstation to be easier than it was proving to be.
Thanks for the real-world comparisons. Most helpful.
My pleasure!
21:47: using legacy smartphones for extra cameras (and audio recorders) -- What tips do you (or other viewers) have for moving the files around (air drop is easiest for me, since i'm out of hard drive and can't update my MacOS to permit sync via Apple Music iPhone management interface) and also for syncing audio or A/V, post-production? I'm very much in the consumer range of knowledge and equipment (using iMovie, iPhones, and a Zoom Q4N wide-angle camcorder w/ good audio capabilities, at the moment), and have found massive record speed differences between iPhone 14 and Zoom R16 multitrack recorder, for example.
Mark... You were one of the causes of my migration from Windows i7 based notebook to an M1 based MacBookPro 13". Just 12 months ago.
I play keyboards live using a lot of VSTs.
That migration was the best technology improvement of my life. I owe you a bottle of Barbaresco (local wine here in Turin, Italy)
Festeggio con te!
@@MarkPayneAudio Gosh... You speak Italian!
No, I don't but Google Translate does! xxxx
@@MarkPayneAudio Same old trick
my debate is a MAc Studio vs a high power laptop which is mobile? any suggestions?
Echoing the below comments - very thorough and sensible review, no hype. Although I don't regularly do photo, video or music editing, I am facing the same challenge in choosing between the M2 Pro Mac Mini and M1 Max Mac Studio - this insightful video is helping me lean towards Studio too.
I appreciate that! Good luck with your choice.
@@MarkPayneAudio followed a suggestion, and bought a Mac Mini M2 in-store (8GB with 1GbE), to test out my usage - it served its purpose perfectly, helped me find 2 aspects that drove me to M2 16GB with 10GbE. Returned in-store within 14 days, and I know that my M2 will be fantastic. More people should use the in-store return, OR Apple should start stocking 16GB models 😂
By far the absolute best real world comparison software/hardware analysis UA-cam video I have watched to date, and I have literally watched hundreds, Bravo!
Many Thanks!
Good evening Mark, I've been expecting you, and your Apple M2 product! :)
Automatic thumbs up from me...
Hi and Thank you! Good to hear from you!
I run mostly Ableton 11 and can just about get by with my mac pro 3,1 8 core machine , but I’m finally looking to get a new machine for music / video , looking at the refurb market its a real toss up between a studio m1 max and m2 pro mini , both are similar price in the UK , but leaning towards the studio for its extra memory / ports , i think both can handle my audio workflow while standing on their heads so i dont really need the extra power of the M2 . Thanks for the video !
I just bought a new M1 max base studio. In dollar or pound equivalents I save 500 on the M2 max studio. So it was nearly the price of a M2 macmini pro base 16gb model but the max had 32gb stock and all those extra ports
I jumped on the Apple silicon bandwagon but my i7 8700k iMac out-performs the M2 Pro in Logic, with faster USB and SSD transfer speeds too and my MBP 2015 15" gives me better performance with live guitar plugins than the M2 as well. In my opinion Intel is still king when it comes to music production.
Did anyone catch all that? I got lost when he mentioned something about the rendering ZTE and coder xpc threads going into the CPU of the M2 Pro Studio and then back into the dropped framing which rendered the IUD and what was that again? And what was that about a black magic? This thing do voodoo???
Thank you for the informative video from someone who is using the stuff, paying for the stuff and has nothing to gain by glossing over the bad parts.
Thanks Shane. Yep, Its my money!
Anyone using Resolve on an M2 ? Advice for the best value under $2,000?
very helpful, great work! Thanks a million!
Glad it helped!
I have a Mac Studio M1 Ultra and my husband has just bought the base model M2 Pro . To be honest it is true , in this case , for professional video editing of complex codecs , the M1 Ultra with 64 GBs of Ram offers a better solution . Still I put some of these projects and run the on the M2 Mac mini pro and I have been impressed on what this entry level machine can do . Considering the price gap however and the fact that 90 percent of users don’t need a fully spec Mac , I would suggest them , for quality price to stick to the M2 Pro instead of the Mac Studio . I was able to run all my projects on both systems and that quite shocked me . Considering all the plugins I use , from iZotope to Waves , I had not a single issue in Logic and FCPX did not drop a frame . No problems in other third party apps . For some graphic uses rendering was faster on the M2 Pro whereas the Mac Studio outperformed in rendering times . However my suggestion would be to go for the M2 Pro for most users
let me ask which display do you use?
@@hugonot2008 I use a 5k LG HDR and a Samsung Odyssey 9 49” curved
@@giolagala8118 Samsung Odyssey 9 49" looks impressive!
Great work. Your videos are among the very best out there. Thank you.
Wow, thank you!
This has got to be the best real world comparison with the explanation on the entire internet!! Terrific work and knowledge! Thank you!
Wow, thanks!
11:11 Soundgrid Studio and Audio over Ethernet Protocol in general are areas of concern. DId the GB ethernet solve your issue or was it a driver?
Well I don't know! Once the Mac Studio went in with its 10GB port and one OS release back, everything worked fine.
I am thinking about getting a Mac Studio M1...but also thinking that maybe in a few months would be a New Mac Studio M2....do u think the improvement would be worth the wait?
There is always a new thing if you wait!
Great to see another video Mark and brilliantly summarised. I have the 14 inch M1 Max MBP and I've been looking at a replacement for my 2013 Mac Pro Trashcan which was my main office editing machine. I'm thinking the base M2 Studio will be more than sufficient. What Monitor do you use with your M1?
Also good to see the wine tasting again!
I am still using a 27" old Thunderbolt Display. Its a shame as the iMac Pro's 5K screen is definitely better but that has gone now as I sold the system. By now my eyes have forgotten that I was better and the old one looks fine!
My intel mid 2010 does the same in logic. It obviously does not do the same in final cut or with video. But my speeds and track counts, plug ins using Universal Audio, Slate, iZotope etc..does the same if not better. I feel cheated because I have to buy all new kit to have some similar speed, but not necessarily better for my audio applications. An M1 (so far) doesn’t offer markedly better performance to warrant the cost. We’re talking seconds in terms of processing.
I do understand video processing. But many movies and hit records were made on much lesser machines.
My main point is I am being forced to upgrade a system that works great only to work with software that has to be written for a new format that isn’t leaps above. It’s frustrating.
Understood
Great insightful video. Very thorough and loved it. Very useful ACTUAL real world testing. This will help lots of people decide on what Mac will work best for their studio needs!
Thank you!
I made the same decision. For me, the bigger cooler was the reason: I can run the Studio on full load for hours while the cooler stays on minimal speed and the cpu barely reach 45C. Desktop compared to a Notebook? For me, it is my studio machine and the rack with my stuff doesn't go anywhere. A notebook would sit next to the desk, because I use my external monitors anyway. In a situation like this, the connectivity of a Mac Studio is more important than be able to move my computer around. But that depends solely on each and everyones use cases.
As always: thanks for you realistic testing - the next time somebody shows me the 300+ tracks of the "Logic Benchmark" I will scream 🙂
Agreed!
I purchased for $50 an i7 2.6 2012 iMac mini maxed it with a 2TB SSD 16 Memory updates to Ventura and voilà…A BEAST OF A MACHINE STILL!!!!!! Loving my 30 inch 2K nicely saturated cinema display…came with all adaptors for $70…ALL FOR $120 DONE!!!
Oh Yes!
Shame the Mac mini M2 Pro didn't get much ,or any look in really, re the testing, It would have been interesting to see the same test(s) you did with it included. Good though you have highlighted an incompatibility with your audio hardware...could this vary with manufacturer? Or is it perhaps a simple Monterey to Ventura OS upgrade issue? Have you run Ventura on the Mac Studio M1 Max? Might want to tell Digigrid the issue as they say it is compatible with 13.0.1.
Hi PL. The Geekbench GPU and GPU tests for the M2 Pro were mine along with the BruceX test. However, I could not do the detail Logic and FCP tests as I took the system back to change it for the Studio. The audio hardware issue WILL vary with manufacturer for sure. It may have also been Ventura issue but you cannot downgrade a M2 pro to Monterey so I had no way of isolating that. Unlike when I first got into M1 laptops when I was prepared to ride the leading/bleeding edge curve as I had my stable studio system in Intel. As this system is replacing this I just needed it to work without fighting. I was fighting.
Thank you for this. Very insightful. Loved how the wine glass improved your personal human performance, lol. Hope you're still recovering well from the food poisoning. Do you think we would get different results if you had tested this in DaVinci resolve for example. The free version of Resolve does not have GPU rendering and a lot of people have jumped ship from Premiere Pro to Resolve for other reasons. So in such a situation given the lack of GPU rendering capability perhaps the m2 mac mini would outperform the m1 max studio? I ask this question because I am considering a purchase in summer but i dont use final cut and so i need to make an informed decision.
Tricky ! I do not use Resolve so I take your point about GPU rendering.
If you only are working with audio a 10 year old hackintosh running snow leopard will do just fine and the Base model Mac Mini M2 will be overkill. I got a bunch of hackintoshes even a six core xeon + newer and older 4 core hacks and a few weeks old Mac Mini M2 Base Model and the m2 mac mini rocks.
ok :-)
Any concerns about dust ingestion into the Studio. I flipped over a Studio at an Apple store and the amount of dust clinging to the bottom grill was pretty shocking. Seems like one needs to fashion an air filter.
Not had any problems yet but it is early days.
What's the app (not Activity Monitor) that's showing you all your CPU/GPU stats and Processes etc? It looks amazing.
This is iStatistica. Its free but you do need the pro version to look at GPU.
I’m still using a 2015 MBP and now that I’ve started doing a bit of video editing on top of music, it’s age is really showing. I’ve been debating between all these options and I think I’m going to wait until the M2 MBP’s hit the refurb to see if the M1 MBPs get an additional discount. Then I think I’ll probably go for it!
We one of these thing is sure to happen!
Thanks for actually showing it in a production environment! This is the info I need to determine my step into Apple silicon from the i7 I’m running now. Thanks for this video.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Mark… excellent comparison! Any chance of running the same test using DaVinci Resolve?
I have never used resolve. Perhaps I should!
MP- Love the wine sip... The best tech - real work flow of creativity review on this platform.
Bravo❗
Much appreciated!
How did you get the m1 in 2019? It was released in 2020...
Yep! I slipped a year!
New sub and thumbs up. I’m thankful for the time and energy you spent to make a wonderful comparison. I’m a video editor, and between my systems and work - have access to every iteration of the M1 chipset. For FCPX, I only notice a small difference between my base spec MBP14 M1 Pro and work’s full spec M1 Ultra with 128GB. There’s definitely a bottleneck in the software. Thanks again!
Thanks for the sub!
Is Mac Studio noticeably louder than Mac Mini ? Many users say so, others do not notice the difference ?
I am getting zero noise from it! nadda! Very strange as I have heard people talking about this too. Honestly I cannot see how a Mac Mini would be quieter anyway... the frames size is more compact and the cooling space is less?
Hi Mark - As ever, an extremely thorough and well structured video, with real world scenarios. Very helpful - Cheers! 😎🎸
Glad it was helpful! Thanks Ian!
Thanks for this.
I wstched tge older videos you shot on the initial M1 machines, and they were VERY useful.
I have been waiting for a M2 Mini for years, but when it was released i wasnt dead sure on getting it, vs the Studio or even a MB pro .
In deed .. with Apple.silicon, it's not as advantageous to going for a.desktop , so.. maybe one should just gather a little more $€& and go for.the laptop. I'm still undecided there.
I basically need Logic Pro to run a probably 35 to 50 tracks session, both Audio and Midi channels, with loaded-in PlugIns and virtual instruments. Mainly for writing & recording my music.
I was thinking.of going with a 64Gb RAM machine, for future proofing..
Do you reckon that as overkill ?
Thanks again
Cheers from Portugal
Yes I think 64GB is overkill. 16Gb would work. 32 would be more than enough.
@@MarkPayneAudio thanks for the feedback.
When the M1 came out, i got a 14” MBPro with 16Gb RAM. I concluded that it wasn’t a great pick, if it were to be my Mac for the next 5 ..or 6 years.
Evidently, back then, it was still running Rosetta, under Ableton and most of the Virtual Instruments i have.
I have realized, that perhaps the 32G Mac Mini M2 Pro might cut it, in lieu of the M1 Studio (base model).
I’ll probably wait it out a couple of months more.. and see if they put out anything new on the June conference.
Thanks very much, once again
Cheers from Portugal
Extremely thorough video! The Mac Studio looks like the better choice!
Yes for now it looks this way.
When comparing the Logic Bounces at the end to the Intel chip ...... the M1 Pro appears to be about 18% faster (+49%) than the Mac Studio (+31%). The M1 Pro and Mac Studio are both using the same CPU, no? Just curious what you think might account for the difference.
I batted this away (hence the “lazy” comment on
my own work!) That is not right is it? Needs investigation. Honestly by this time I was 8 days into making and editing this piece and I wanted to see the back of it!
@@MarkPayneAudio Ha! I can dig it! Close enough for Rock n Roll as we say. Just curious if you had any thoughts on why.... but yeah, sometimes you just need to be done with the project. All good. Thx for the informative vids.
Woah so nice review thank you Mark. Also, my new setup is Mac mini m2 pro 12 CPU -19 GPU with Huawei Mateview 28.2 screen. My future opinion is mac mini with apple silicon ipads gonna be winner .
Excellent! I would have kept the M2 Mini (like yours) had not not been for the issues with Digigrid IOS.
@Mark Payne Just give time for iOS. Last year I went few apple event in Apple Store.They exactly want and focused iPads. Also apple silicon iPads already ready for us. We just need some update for iPadOS. Normally I really dont like iPads but I don't know what was happening last year, now iPads seems like useful and more flexible when I far my desk.
fantastic video and "Prost" from good old Germany
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you very much for your very informative video. I’ve been on the fence with M2 pro and studio for weeks. I think going from a 2017 Mbp to a studio is right, considering my use case. I kept wondering if a M2 studio would come but by all accounts it’s going to be a Mac Pro so!
Glad it was helpful! I tend to not worry too much about what the "next thing" is likely to be. I kind of want to get on with it today. Of course there will be a M2 Ultra Super Studio at some point. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is NOW"
@@MarkPayneAudioI love your analogy! Well I’ve ordered it! Had a little Dutch courage last night 🍺 and pushed the button. I’m pleased I’ve finally done it as I’ve lost way too much time on YT going backwards and forwards. I think it’ll be perfect for me. Thanks again 👍
The M2 Max system is out already. re you still using your M1 Studio or did you upgrade?
No I stayed with the M1 Studio. I am no longer full time doing production work and my UA-cam pieces have been more about my curiosity on how the platform works for creators. I am not so keen that I go out and buy new Apple stuff just to create content. Knock 20 years off my age (60) when I was still hungry for money and had more steam pressure in my ego and yes I would be all over this! However the YT thing has been a nice hobby but I think I have learnt what I needed to learn. Sorry this is long winded! I am sure there are younger, brighter and better looking people that will be doing this stuff :-)
@@MarkPayneAudio My dilemma is Apple. What Apple may choose to do with consumers holding onto older chipsets when they start rolling out M3 and M4 systems is unknown. Your videos were quite informative and are the only kind on UA-cam detailing exactly what the Apple silicon platform really is. What I learned after watching your videos is that the Mac Mini 8-Core system is indeed a quad-core machine, when only considering performance cores that is... and the Mac Mini Pro M2 10-core is a hexa-core machine and the Mac Mini Pro M2 12-core is a octo-core machine. Base model M2 Max studio is also an 8-core machine and the base Mac Studio Ultra, a 16-core machine. The more a consumer pays, the more performance one gets. Thank you again.
Really great to see the "Old" iMac Pro STILL holding its own against the M1 and M2. The upgrade choices are not obvious. This video helped greatly. Thank you.
Indeed they are
not always clear. But what is clear is that FCP workflow sits better on what ever M1 Pro or M2 Pro you get.
thank you very much for this review, please, what would you recommend for music composition with a lot of orchestral VST instruments in Logic pro? I'm currently still working on my Imac pro 2016
Your parents should've named you Max
Max Memory!
Great. No posing, pure info. That‘s what i want to see
Thanks for spotting that. Trying to keep it real.
Is that a Helios console in your cold opening with Neve meters?
The console in the live open is a Midas HD96. It is a live console that I had a hand in developing here in the UK.
sw used for ceck resurces?
Thanks for the great video!!
I laboured over the decision between M2 Mini Pro and M1 Studio, and I also went for the studio. So I am relived to see where you landed.
Any observations or thoughts regarding fan noise? It irks me that my Studio fan is always on... having used laptops until now where the fan only audibly kicked in under high load.
Once I'm doing stuff is not an issue. But when I'm trying to silently think, all I hear is fan!! 😂
Oh interesting! I have not even heard it!
@@MarkPayneAudio I actually swapped the first Mac Studio I got as I was convinced it had a bit of a ~2k whine in the fan sound.
Others have reported this phenomenon in some units.
I think that the second unit I got is better.
I might be making it all up in my head, but as you can perhaps relate, once you start hearing something it is hard to unhear it!
May you continue to never hear the fan on yours! 😀
@@petecohen777 put it on a mat to absorb the sound, some desks or surfaces tend to reflect and enhance certain sounds.
@@Sergei__v thanks for the tip! I'll give it a go.
very helpful - thanks for the insights
Glad it was helpful!
You give me one laptop. And you have my kidney. It's o+ve fully functional.
Thank You for these awesome Videos.
Glad you like them!
I think I have read somewhere that Apple is limiting a series of things, for example the ports and probably also something in the system
Great perspective and sensible analysis.
Thanks Matthew.
How many of y'all checked all your tabs frantically at 7:06 🤣
I am waiting on M2 Studio.
We can aways wait!
Thank you again for this video. I watched the one on Logic optimization for my mac book air M1 and it made it really fun with Logic pro 10.7.6. Now I am thinking it's time to move on from my Mac mini 2018 Intel. I am worried about mostly using orchestral sound librairies like Spitfire Albion One and those types of plug-ins and if I make the move I need to make sure it will be a good one. I notice you are testing the M1 max mini studio with a lot of mixing and mastering plug-ins and I am wondering if it is comparable to using orchestral sounds that requirr loads of Ram. Thanks again and hopefully you will put to rest any of my concerns. I am ready for the Mac mini studio M1 adventure.
Hi Mark..! This is an incredible video. Thank. you..! I am a filmmaker and I am planning to buy a Mac for film editing at the lowest possible budget. I am contemplating between a MacBook Pro M2 Laptop, Mac Mini M2 and Mac Studio M2. Which one of the would you recommend for film editing? My budget is about $ 2K.
Glad it was helpful! There are a lot of spec choices within the systems that you want to compare. Also remember in the Mac Studio M2 you are getting more performance for your $2k as you are not funding a screen. I am a fan of the 14" M2 Pro Marcbooks and I type on one now. However there is not enough screen real estate for long term video editing on it. My choice would be the M2 Mac Studio and a good screen of your choice.
Where did you get your MacBook Pro skin?
👏🏾
thanks pal
Welcome!
How do you use your iMac as a display?
Cheers!🍷
Salute!
Very informative video👍 The biggest issue I had with the Mac mini is that it only has a two pin power connector so no earth pin. Anytime I recorded high gain guitar the interference was insane. The only way round it was to connect an earth lead from the head phone jack to an earth point in my house. Not exactly convenient. I ended up buying a MacBook with the optional power extension lead which actually provides a ground and resolves this issue. God knows why Apple as standard doesn’t ground there machines. The studio I believe, does have an earth pin so does not have this issue.
Interesting. There could be other senerios where you might be tempted to ground lift a grounded Studio machine to get around hum issues!
@@MarkPayneAudio Good point! I didn’t consider that. In my case I needed to be grounded, but like you say, some scenarios may require isolation from ground.
thanks Brother
Welcome
Nice thanks
Newcomer to your content but found this video fantastic. I have a 2020 MacBook m1 and am wanting to move to a Mac Studio/mini. I just use it for audio production via logic. Mac Studio base model seems like it would plenty for the next few years. Curious if you’d agree or recommend something else?
Glad it was helpful! Watch out for the new version of the Studio which will happen soon I am sure.
@@MarkPayneAudio I got greedy and pulled the trigger on an M1 Max refurb. Patience has never been a virtue of mine.
@@CosmotheDane And why not?! :-)
Your work flow needs a lot of bandwidth from RAM to push so many data streams efficiently and that's what M series chips do so well. Great Job showcasing it. I am very happy with the performance I'm getting from iMac Pro 10 core. I got it used at a great price, it has all the ports, screen, speakers, storage and ram I may ever need. I see how you may get bottlenecked in video production. Awesome video! Thank you very much. Active tasks like scrubbing, scrolling etc is what makes user experience great. M chips are super efficient here!
Indeed. Still love my iMac Pro 10 Core Xeon but I need its ££££ to pay for the Mac Studio! I will miss the screen. My older Thunderbolt Display is not as good.
@@MarkPayneAudio I do photography, so I will stick to Studio Display when it's time to buy the Mac Studio. A lot of people are happy with LG thunderbolt displays. By the way have you tried connecting the Mac studio with iMac Pro?
Great information. Can you tell me,, does an external Thunderbolt drive work efficiently running orchestral samples with the mac Mini or studio? I have been trying to determine whether a Thunderbolt 4 connection is suitable for that purpose. Do you run samples from your internal drive or an external drive? Thanks!
All my audio is running from external drives. I use Samsung T7 drives which are USB 3.2. These will pass data at around 600MB/s. At 48K and 24 bit, each sample needs 0.14 MB/s of disk data rate. so you could argue the SSD could support over 4000 samples concurrently
@@MarkPayneAudio THanks. That's good info. I realize you are doing a lot of live coverage. Do you also use samples in your general work? Thanks again.!!!
Hi Mark, no... my work is all post live production so the recordings are audio tracks.
@@MarkPayneAudio Thanks again. I'm trying to do a build and the second drive for orchestral samples is a must for me and hard to get definitive answers, Thanks . I'll be watching!
I had a M1 mini. Lasted for 3 months..sold it. Long time MacOs user here. It was time to move on.
Which one did you have Tiqo?
@@MarkPayneAudio I had the base model M1 (8gb/256). Don't get me wrong, it's a great machine, but ARM is very limited (at least for me). Maybe in a couple of years..not for now.
What did you move on to?
@@alcoandy85 Before i sold the M1 i looked into the apps i use a lot to see if i could find them (or replacements) for linux. I was surprised how many apps are available for that platform, so i am happy to say i run Ubuntu now for a long time without any issues at all. I didn't expect it myself to be honest..but i like it!
@@tiqo8549 Got it; thanks!
Having a loaded Mini M2 Pro and a Studio M1 Max, I found the Studio would outrun the Mini on any longish FCP or Logic project. One critical not so little detail, getting the Mini or Studio with a 1TB SSD or higher will significantly improve disk IO performance. On the Mini you get 6GBps where the Studio gets around 5.5GBps. The extra disk IO perf adds up in a big way over time!
Hi Mario...In the FCP section I pay particular attention to disk IO rates. I have to say that I do not believe our machines suffer any bottle necks in disk I/o. 6GB/s vs 5GB/s vs even 1.5GB/s is so far beyond what we need, the argument cannot be made. I feel a detailed myth busting video in the making!
@@MarkPayneAudio , I respectfully disagree with the notion that disk IO performance is a “myth”. It is as important as compute power. IO bandwidth is on one side and compute metrics are on the other side of the overall performance coin. Interestingly, relative to the performance of current Apple Silicon, Audio is so tiny compared to video, we have reached a point where it’s hard to throttle a system’s IO with audio alone.
@Mario Pintaric he didn't say disk IO performance is a myth. He said he doesn't believe the process bottlenecks at those given parameters.
@@AlexVonCrank , I got that. Was trying to keep my reply brief. I disagreed with the premise, hence the qualifier. Even when using Logic, if you have instruments with deep samples (e.g. layered piano with long sustain and other like orchestral instruments), a fast SSD will make a very noticeable difference on large orchestral scores. A Mini with a fast SSD can make a huge difference in some types of audio work. It's particularly noticeable if you have less memory. A Mini with 8GB RAM having a 1TB SSD is still surprisingly snappy under memory overload situations because of the SSD and how well the OS starts swapping to disk. The 256GB SSD is something you will notice often due to how much slower it is.
@Mario Pintaric only a god like you would notice mate. The rest of us mere mortals would be just fine 👌
Great video, thanks Mark!
Thanks George. 10 days of my life I won't get back! Anyway... we were talking about these findings on the Mac Studio vs the M2... Show Craig :-). I guess we need an M2 Mac Studio. Anyway... that's my machine bought for the next 5 years!
Insightful video, cheers! I’m just hesitant to pull the trigger on a Mac Studio w/ an M1 until it’s more or less confirmed that the Studio is on hold until M3 or M4 are out or is put rest for good. Don’t want to spend 3K on something that is replaced by something better for the same price two weeks later.
This is always the issue. You always wait for the next thing. I bought the latest thing (M2 Mac mini pro) and it did not play well with my other older things! Newer is not always better I guess.
@@MarkPayneAudio Greetings, could you share a little more about the older things you refer to. Thanks.
@@accentontheoff older Mac Studio with M1 Max proved to be better than the newest m2 Mac mini.
@@Sergei__v True but if I am not mistaken, his primary point was that it didn’t play well with certain hardware. Was wondering what that hardware was exactly.
Every time I try to switch to Apple products, I come across some issue then I go back to Windows and Android