I have the Sonus Faber Concertinos that I had for over 25 years. I will be sending you one in January to see what you can do to make it better. I really like them. Thanks for what you do.👍
What you need to bare in mind is that speaker is probably about 25 years old, and it was the first of three in it's series. There were big changes with its predecessor.
When I was at Sumiko years ago they explained to us that Franco Serblin designed his speakers with those cabinet resonances in mind. So rather than trying to fight against them and control/ dampen them, he embraced those resonances in his designs so the enclosure would contribute to the sound and body of the speakers performance.
I think this concept is wrong and against logic. see the spectral decay. why you want to have this cabinet resonance to add to the speaker own response? this can work with violin (which was Serblin import to the speaker cabinet concept) but seem not to work with speaker. unless somebody likes such a unrealistic sound....
That's a lousy excuse to compensate for an overpriced speaker that is clearly more show than go. You heard Danny in how the cabinet is designed and the choice of a "lumpy" woofer. It is cost cutting at best and laziness in acoustic design. It seems that Sonus Faber rather puts their efforts into a pretty looking speaker, rather than one that is sonically sound and while many other speaker manufacturers do that, it is unacceptable on a speaker that is priced at four figures. While they do have a nice tweeter, that will only get you so far. I've seen better, for far less.
Hi GR research, it is not true when you say (@17:40) that MDF is less sensitive to humidity than hardwood. In reality, it's the opposite: MDF is much more sensitive to humidity than any other wood. In this case, Plywood, especially birch plywood, is the wood to use. Anyway.........these Sonus Fabers were produced in 1987 and at the time almost all crossovers used electrolytic capacitors, so a simple upgrade with polycaps, such as the Mundorf/Jantzen capacitors, will make a huge improvement in sound. However, despite these disadvantages, these speakers were very musical and sounded very very well. If I owned these speakers I would ONLY change the capacitors keeping the same values and saving the money GR asks for the kit!! Danny is competent for sure, but he has to sell his products
Actually Danny is correct. Me and Danny have butted heads in the past. But in this he was correct. You are correct as well. Let me explain. Solid wood is referred to as live wood. MDF is referred to as Dead wood. The reason all comes down to wood grain. Wood grain moves more with the changing of the seasons because of the grain. MDF is bonded wood which will soak up water it doesn't move as much. His point of using 2 materials was good advice. Also MDF is more consistent. Birch Plywood is considered a dead wood. They alternate the grains to minimize movement. They also use a bonding agent that helps. Its basically the same as using 2 different materials. I agree with you Birch plywood would be great for a speaker.
Let's keep in mind these speakers were designed in the 80s. Pretty good for the era. I have the modern day version of this speaker (Electa Amator III) and it is outstanding.
You didn't pay attention to what Danny said that he comes across these issues, even with newer Sonus Faber speakers. They have a good tweeter and a nice looking cabinet, but they don't seem to be as good as a performer given to what the company charges for them. Sinus Faber is a pass for me.
@@jukingeo you can't compare these with the garbage Sonus Faber is putting out today in this price point. These were made in a very different time, with very different company structure, and a very different mindset.
I built speakers for my fraternity in college. Made of plywood with a horn tweeter, a horn midrange and an 18” EV woofer. Not much for imaging and I have no idea how much stored energy was in there, but I am guessing enough to power a Model Y for 3 or 4 miles. But, they were crazy efficient and could be heard inside Memorial Stadium (4 blocks away) while sitting on the front lawn of the house and being powered by my 50 watt Rotel RA-840BX2. It is all about use case.
It is definitely a different case. I was into commercial and pro audio and generally a speaker like that is designed for output and not imaging. So they are far more efficient than speakers for the home. They probably have very lumpy response curves and yeah, cabinet resonances galore. BUT they are built for a specific purpose and to that is to deliver decent sound at much higher volumes. So they had to be built to handle compression well, and also higher power amplifiers. However, I have come across some pretty darn good sounding commercial speakers, and EV is one of my favorites, especially when it comes to mids and highs.
Another fantastic re-work! Thanks for sharing! I love these content dense, to the point, crossover redesign videos. The before/after is always fantastic. In the process of designing a 2.5 way speaker and am letting the tweeter do the same thing. Rising from ~5k towards 20k by a few dB. Should work out nice. I enjoy building speaker cabinets from "real wood" and butcher block type wood products. Just sand an oil quick finish. I always line the interior or place several strips or patches of sticky-back asphalt type sound deadening material to the inside of these cabinets, then add various foam and polyfill materials. This seem to work well enough to keep the cabinet reasonably quiet.
@@hifiman4562 It's like sending in a vintage Rolex "to better it" with modern technology and materials. Quite a nonsense. That speaker is a testament of a specific moment in hifi history, and deserves to be kept as original as possible. It's not a random Pioneer 15" woofer crap.
A friend of mine bought a pair of DIY monitors from GR research, my Vienna accoustics Hayn grand sound wayyyyyy better , acourding to Danny there is no better speaker than his speakers , all other speakers are shit , well let me tell you Danny , your DIY speakers are ehhhhh not very good , maybe you should do a video on an upgrade of one of you're own speakers ?
Any idea how they attach that front baffle to the enclosure? Seems like the leather wrap would get in the way of gluing the front baffle to the panels.
@5:45 I'd swear that with a 10 base logarithm, +10dB would be twice as loud, not just 3dB. +3dB usually needs double the power, but doubling the power doesn´t double the perceived volume.
If Danny has a wizards hat he should wear it just by looking at any speaker he can diagnose all the trouble. I perfectly agree with everything he says .No speaker is perfect for everything.The best midrange I’ve ever heard was a Scan Speak Revelator the one with the slits in the paper I think it’s the damper in the black goo they put on the slits .Hey Danny blow our minds build a 3 way with revelator drivers and you pick the guts would love to buy a pr with the pinnacle of your dreams
I've used the Revelator drivers. I actually like them down low, but the heavy moving mass of those models loose out quickly in ranges above 800Hz or so to our drivers. Yep, ours sound better.
Right, typically it's 10 db that is percived as twice as loud, 3 db is best described as a perceivable difference in loudness yet taked twice the power to achieve.
. Oh great, now someone's 'gotta look it up. I thought it was. to raise 3db at 1 meter more took twice the power. And 6db up, from the same distance, is twice the amplitude.
Danni is wrong. Navid and Dude are correct. Empirically, doubling/halving the power changes the dB by 3. Perceptually, a 10 dB swing doubles the perceptual /qualitative experience
correct. 6dB is twice as loud. * loudness is proportional to the amount of moved air times the frequency. * double the amplitude results in double the moved air. * double the voltage is double the amplitude. formula: 20*log (U2/U1) in dB. double the voltage means 20*log(2/1) = 6.0206 dB, usually rounded to 6dB. for people who are not electrical engineers: power is not proportional to voltage. double the voltage results in 4 times the power ==> P = U² * R. if you double the power you get sqrt(2) of voltage. 20*log(sqrt(2)/1) = 3.01 dB
That speaker is one of the most beautiful small speakers I have ever seen, the wood design is a work of art, they choose that woofer maybe because is more beautiful than others, but a Vifa polypropylene woofer would measure and sound better as polypropylene gives smother frequency response, I know Vifa is gone but I made a speaker using a Vifa P21WO-20-08 which is the same as Vandersteen 2 and it sounded fantastic
So you only want "Positive" comments? I would think all sincere and honest views would be welcome, as long as they are stated in a polite way. I have news for you: NO speaker or audio site is going to have all opinions agree.
The video thumbnail is an Elector Amator 2, EISA speaker of the year 1998, and Dannys taking apart what looks to be an Elector Amator 1. Tweeters are different.
The Electa Amator II is an entirely different design. It has a ScanSpeak tweeter, ScanSpeak midwoofer and a passive ScanSpeak radiator on the back which, knowing SF, could as well be a full sized unit wired as some kind of passive radiator as they did with the Extrema.
I soldier, cut leads as short as possible, and space components apart,brace cabinets like a skyscraper, build my stands and fill with sand. 2 wires per + and - lead. Use air core and good capacitors in crossover. My attention to details placement and 50 years experience helps to build systems that leave folks Stunned. I am decorating the cabinet with 1 in baffle board of aged heart pine mounted like a cover. Panty hose pro tect the open baffle duo vertical 2 in vifa on top , 600hz to 6000hz then the ribbons on upper baffle.the point to have a shortest line from top to bottom of baffle. You don't need big open baffles or drivers big subs for bass, 8's for mid bass, ribbons for top end . These Systems I've built are still being used and the owners are happy. Most have died now and my work jams on. Always do your best work
If the mids (200-1000Hz) were the same output level as the 1-3Khz range I could see that being a problem, but generally speaking most "brightness" is found in the 1-3Khz range where human hearing is typically most sensitive. With the 1-3KHz range being soft compared to the other ranges you're more likely to hear it a less having less "attack" or "presence" rather than the treble being bright.
That woofer is an early Audio Technologie. From a developer that worked for Dynaudio and has now his own company. Flexible units, if you want a specific set of parameters, he will build it for you. Far beter membranes these days.
@@vegaslimoguy2376 you really should see if you can get a listen to a pair before you trash them so badly. I owned a pair of the Electa Amator II's, and I can absolutely assure you that they do not sound like $300 worth of parts. Even back in the day those DynAudio tweeters were going for more than that.
Hi Danny have you had a look at Q acoustics concept 500 they have very well made inert Mdf sandwich cabs with non setting gel between the layers with other interesting resonance control my issue is they sound a bit dull in the treble at low to medium volume unless I pump up the treble on my Michi X5 .Because i live in the UK sending them to you would be out of the question ,but its possible someone in the States has a pair top upgrade .?
Ron Brenay did a review of their best stand mounted model. He brought them over here to hear them in my system to get some additional listening on them. I heard them when they were here. They didn't bother me. Nothing bad stood out. They were easy to listen to. They were easily bettered by our X-LS Encore though.
The raw drivers from Morel are good choices nowadays for applications where the Dynaudio raw drivers were used before. The limitation in a lot of dynaudio drivers was due to use of ferrite magnets since neodymium magnets were not in wide use yet, and the newer and better Morel products are using some neodymium magnets in addition to ferrite, and some better cone materials also. Morel is also making - and learning from - many of the custom drive units for Magico; this type of collaboration is common because of the expense in setting up a dedicated loudspeaker assembly line; it's more cost effective to make custom drivers with a speaker manufacturer like Seas, Scan-Speak, or Morel (or even Faital, SICA, and Ciare in Italy or other suppliers in Asia) even if the design is unique to a speaker manufacturer's product, than to totally custom-tool a unique design.
I own a pair of TAOC FC3000 and I had problems with the foam inside the esotar TD-330 tweeters because the stuff was disintegrating like dust. The sound became harsh and beamy, disjointed between highs and mid to lows. This happened gradually so it is difficult to detect. One day to another I thought that the loudspeakers sounded worse than shit so I determined to see if I could fix them or die trying 😅. My taoc moniyors sound awesome, but the operation is very risky and the outcome could have easily ended in a lot of wasted money. I replaced the foam with something similar. I think Dynaudio knew these issues and that could be the reason why they use now a perforated dome mesh just behind the outer fabric dome. They use that technology instead of stuffing the vented pole with deaden fiber of foam. It's my hipotesis anyway.
@@salvadorrodenas3071 Ok, but I really don’t see where there might be foam in this tweeter. I saw pictures of dissembled esotars, where the ferro fluid was changed, but I never saw… foam.
@dieterleonard2309 the ferrofluid is in the magnetic gap and the foam is in the center hole just behind the dome. The esotar TD-330 tweeter have a big hole stuffed with foam. Look for in the internet and you'll see it.
@@salvadorrodenas3071 Ok, but in my Esotar 330d there is really no foam, because I am able to look through the dome to the center of the magnet, and I can see the black circle on it. Perhaps it depends on the age of the Esotar? My Esotars are about 15-18 years old.
@dieterleonard2309 you can't see it because the foam is dark. Also, the white circumference around the black circle, is white felt pad. The translucent dome doesn't let you distinguish what's really behind it. I warn you do not open it unless it is absolutely necessary. In case you opt to open it, ask for a professional or take your time to prepare yourself to do accordingly to the procedures. It's very easy to break the thin wire that feeds the coil when you remove the front plate. Be very careful if you do.
I recently bought two brand new ATC SMC150 pro active speakers. Long story short: Drivers are near perfect. The case and cabling sucks. Build a new case with same dimensions, using better and thicker wood, laminated with resonance damping kit. Used silver coated copper cable, lots of NoRez. Now I am happy.
I ordered crossovers from Parts Express for a pair of RCA(Radio Shack) three way floor speakers, knowing full well that they mixed in iron core with aircore inductors along with electrolytic caps in the new crossovers. But the project was from a hobby standpoint, along with knowing that I was improving the speaker equivalent of a Chevy Vega or Ford Pinto. So with that in mind, There weren't any Corvette, or Cobra engines being considered for the upgrade. With Goldwood woofers and mid-ranges, and Morel tweeters along with added bracing,and being careful to match the sensitivity of each new driver, they sound rather respectable now. The whole point is, I guess I don't have the trained ear to catch the difference between all aircore inductors, and full polycap resistors, and their lesser counterparts. What exactly is smearing?
i would not say that these speakers are bad in context of the 80s. second half of the 80s was all about fake watt numbers, sometimes claiming 1000Watt peak. competition was not the same in the high quality hifi compared to now. but yes, they where not cheap either.
interesting review. Sonus Fabers from this era were mostly built with 1st order slopes. Believe 1st orders were used to minimize phase shift through the crossover point. Back when these were built, a lot of the high quality parts available today were not present back then. Would be an interesting listening comparison to do: A. the new GR research xover with 2nd and 3rd parts vs. B - the stock crossover rebuilt with equivalent quality parts (caps, resistors, inductors). The latest version of these speakers actually has a clear window over the crossover parts so the buyer can see what quality level of parts are being used.
These drivers needed a LOT more than a first order filter to control the response issues. So regardless of the quality of parts, those issues would still remain.
Yeah, that's trolling. I don't even spend that much on a WHOLE SYSTEM, let alone one component. There is a point where it just gets way out of hand and $10k for speakers is well beyond that.
To each their own. Some people spend a lot more on their system and even their speakers. I looked at a turn table the other day at $350K + = definitely not for everyone but those who appreciate that kind of value/quality are willing to pay for it.
@scottmackey4182 a $350k turntable tends to be an engineering masterpiece, and almost a work of art. The value is in the object itself, not in the sound reproduction. I love high-end turntables, and would buy one given a suitable lottery win, but they struggle to match much cheaper digital sources in terms of absolute sound quality. But, a bespoke, all analogue, tube powered system in its own room would be a dream come true. Pure theatre to operate, and worth the money for that alone.
Good job Danny. Really like to do Sonus upgrade. Always liked the looks. I think the black stuff was to hide stuff and try to cut down resonance. In some of my DIY I use roofing paint “tar paint” that is sold for mobile homes. Actually works pretty good for the price.
If he tried to describe how they sound, what would that even mean to you anyway, it would be his subjective view in his vocabulary! The best way IS to show you with the graphs!
The video thumbnail shows an Electa Amator 2 but the actual speaker in the video is Electa Amator 1. These are different speakers. The 2 has scanspeak drivers with a passive radiator and sounds different (and better in my opinion). The 1 does sound like having a shouty quacky midrange and a one notey bass to me.
I've heard various iterations of the Electa, and usually loved them. Always sounded coherent and incredibly resolving to my ears. Actually, now that I think about it, most of the models I've seen had those carbon fiber mid woofers (scanspeak?).
It would be nice to know what the sonic improvements have been gained from not just this but all of your upgrades? I don’t doubt the sound has improved, it would be nice Danny, if you could just elaborate a little with how much did the sound actually improve.
I enjoy your videos, and as an engineer appreciate all the measurements. But I never see the most important thing, how did the sound of the speakers change? When these improvements were made, how did they affect the real world sound.
Danny, does lining the internal walls of an enclosure with No Rez take away from it's internal volume? If we take for granite that the manufacturer chose the woofer based on the size of the box or tuned the port for a specific amount of airspace (bass reflex). Will the No Rez effect the port's tuning?
No Rez uses a foam layer that slows down the airflow in the box making it seem bigger to the woofer (by a small amount) and counteracting the space taken up by the damping layer.
Hi Danny. Very interesting commentary on this video and great explanation of the resonance shown in the charts. I learned something. QUESTION: For this build you're adding filters, but are you keeping the existing crossover in the circuit since it was covered with black goop and bonded to the back panel? Or, are you bypassing it and just adding the new circuit you came up with? Thanks.
yes, in this cake the stock crossover was left inside the speaker, as removing it would have been a ton of work. So, you would just remove the old wiring and bypass it altogether, using the new crossover.
For the amount of parts you had to add and I assume it's going to be pretty expensive a woofer swap with a single order high-quality filter it's probably a better path.
A suo tempo ebbi molte occasioni di ascoltare queste Sonus Faber con amplificazioni Electrocompaniet e Bryston e le trovai stupende: con il Bryston LP2 PRO, in particolare, ricordo una sessione di ascolto con "La Folia de la Spagna" di Paniagua (Harmonia Mundi) semplicemente memorabile.
The woofer is not Dynaudio but AudioTechnology / Skaaning (same guys). Saying goes Franco Serblin did his speakers by ear, not measurements. Considering the value, I'd say these should be absolutely left alone as they were.
Yeah, but they way they were was a mess. The cabinet rang, the response was rough, they had ferrous parts in the signal path, cheap parts, etc. Maybe someone should have showed him how to use some measurement tools.
maybe a combination of hard wood with a low density fiber panel is a good idea as well. a low density fiber panel has probably more inner damping than MDF.
I was elated to hear Danny recommending using dissimilar materials to damp resonances. I have a set of four sealed subs with cabinet walls made with layers of MDF, HDF, Baltic Birch plywood and fiber-reinforced cement board with a half inch outer layer of walnut. It took three months to build and finish the cabinets. It also took two guys to wrestle each one in position using a hand truck once the 50-pound drivers and 1.5 inch granite tops were installed. I just hope I never have to move them. 🙄
Not much. Some capacitors can drift a little, and sometime the compliance of the woofer can change depending on the type of materials used, but that is usually only an issue with foam surrounds.
Some speaker manufacturers made great cabinets and they look good, so of pure nostalgia and keen on the vintage look, why not spend some quality on these speakers. Recycle, instead of buying new, that’s mass produced in a big plant in Asia?
They aren't defects, whan Danny essentialy does is killing the charm these speakers have, nobody says that ruler flat sounds best - becuase it sounds dead. It's the same rookie mistake they do with electronics design - it is not supposed to be flat because our ears don't have flat sensitivity. This is why in the real hi-end designs almost nobody does it, or they add distortions in controllable way to achieve a certain sound signature.
@@puciohenzap891 you are just angry that anyone might tambor with these unique things, changing them to the better, FOR THE ONE PERSON, that did send these speakers to Danny. When these speakers were designed they didn’t have the measurements instruments as Danny has today. They couldn’t measure then. NOW we can. Try to understand this. Old ain’t the best, but nostalgia is big.
@@puciohenzap891 If "charm" is what you are after that is fine, but the original owner did not like the "charm". As a speaker designer myself I can't begin to explain the error in your post! Everyone knows about the BBC dip and the Fletcher/Munsen curve, our ears are not linear. Designers are not adding distortion, they simply don't address it because it costs money to do it. Now days these same companies are addressing some of these issues, although not to the extent Danny does. I'm hoping you are here for the same reason I am, to learn something new from Danny, because your post tells me you know very little on the topic of speakers or acoustics!
Danny your thumbnail looks to be the Electa Amator II's, whereas the speakers you reviewed seems to be the Electa Amator I's. The major change between them was that the II's had a flush mounted woofer. Memory is fading now but I think a set of Electa Amator II's were the first Sonus Faber speakers I owned. I absolutely loved them, other than their lack of low end grunt, but that top end was so sweet. I am really bummed that you couldn't get the crossover out, because I would have loved to have seen the differences between it and the photo I sent you via email of the crossover I had in the Sonus Faber Cremona's I used to own.
Sonus faber was the original snob-hyped speaker. They waxed poetic about the glories. I listened, and they all sounded mushy, polite, rolled off. In short, over romantic and inept. Laughably bad parts and construction for so much cash. The only brand where owners brag about cabinet resonance as if it was a Stradivari body.
Why do manufactures keep making audio equipment with big issues? It doesn't need to be perfect, but please leave the customer with the feeling they haven't been ripped off.
You’re looking for problem when there should have none. You will never be satisfied. I listened to this speaker and to me it sounds good and that’s it.
I am sure for many people, just good, is fine. However, there are audible issues with this one and the parts quality (or lack there of) is a bottleneck. Some people want a little more out of their listening experience, and in this case, the upgrade offers a LOT more.
Uh oh. I hope this video doesn't start another online flame war with the Korean kid. He reviewed and liked this model (or an SF model that looked about the same).
Dan, you break my brain sometimes. You literally sell products with same/similar response, but now 2.5 db is out of range>? No reply is wanted or necessary, the numbers are talkin here. Just be silent please while the numbers speak! Cheers 🍻
It is not just about whether or not the overall response falls within an industry standard or not. In this case there were stored energy issues, cheesy parts, cabinet resonances, etc.
Just some observations on upper scaled models I have had and I did look. Totem acoustic I had a set back in 1999 and was told and even shown by the dealer. The driver was the famous Dynaudio 6.5 With 3' voice coil. And the tweeter was a well knows seas. The Crossovers we stunning , high end caps and wire... Minimal amount of parts. Very well made cabinets. I found out later that was all a lie... the Driver was made by a chiinese company. I have also looked into dynaudio speakers And for a 3700 a pair of bookshelf speakers, the crossover was about 100 dollars worth of parts. So seeing this with sonus farber is not a surprising revel. Anyone else had and heard this with totem. Please chime in. I would be interested in knowing how true or false that is. The driver do not show the fab. again this would be on old totems...
Totally agree with Danny. Sonus Faber is a fine woodworking workshop, like almost all Italian loudspeakers manufacturers. Appearance is all they have to offer, no any acoustics advances or special properties to talk about, just good looking. From the first models till now just wow effect of fine woodwork, for those who look for nice furniture(WAF)
Patents and budget constraints dont help either. Manufacturers have to focus attention on areas that doesn't infringe on a patent. Imagine a design where all ideas are implemented. DALI (SMC), BORESEN very low inductance drivers, ROCKPORT inert cabinets, AUDIOPHYSICS Spiderless midrange drivers, SONUS FABER DAD Tweeter technology etc etc. No guarantee it will sound good however
I will definitely agree with Danny here about parts quality. It is Fu%k#ng redicoulous for manufactures. To charge these high prices and supply crap crossover parts. Personally, I have never liked Sonus Faber. I have always known Sonus Faber was more about looks than performance. SF is one of those companies that over charge so much. The customer has no choice but to subscribe to confirmation bias. The potted crossover parts should be a clue that something is amiss. Supposedly SF laminates that Hard Wood in a certain way to eliminate resonance. It is not actually a solid piece of wood.....Allegedly! Plus, don't fall for the " these are an old Sonus Faber speakers". SF has more expensive and recent models that donot out perform this model Danny has measured.
If you want to pay top dollar for inferior part have at it. The problem I have is these high end companies pray on the consumers that can't afford their top of the line component and use their high end name as bragging rights for the uneducated consumer purchasing their lower cost and lower quality speakers.
stop talking bad about him. of course you can improve every speaker. knowing there are 30 50 100k speakers out there its not hard to understand everything old or speakers under 10k is easy upgradeable. just like engines are improvable. speakers are made to sell. not to create the best sound . so often you see woofers that do oke up to 2khz and tweeters that do oke from 2hz. so they can use minimum crossover parts. or simply choose simple cabinet design what better for mass production. instead of bracing. round cabinets. rubber bitumen insides. or use cheaper woods. for me it just sounds you dont know what you are talking about.. this man makes kits that beat 5 to 7 times more expensive speakers. no doubt.. he sells them for very cheaply because he loves to do it. not to make a ton of money. and speaking against him hurt me because he is a very good man .
these speakers are from the 80s! it was not that easy to get very good kits in the 80s. today you get affordable measurement microphones with a cheap behringer soundcard and free software to measure and optimize that as a hobbyist. that was not possible for a hobbyist in the 80s.
@@thomasschafer7268 Stop spewing nonsense, thanks. Current material and cabinet design is lightyears ahead. It's just the problem that people got lazy and create lazy arse designs that they then 'fix' with DSP.
Can't trust practically any speaker manufacturer. It's all Wizard of Oz stuff-behind the curtain. You really have to listen to the speaker however. See if the graphs tell the whole story. These manufacturers are staking their reputation on what they put out, so without giving a listen, possibly A/B/C even with good part speakers with smooth response, decay, impedance etc. you really don't know if you like the sound. I like a good part only if I can hear it, and it's worth paying a time and a half for a speaker I already liked when I auditioned it.
Sonus Faber sold its soul to Private Equity Bean Counters and went all style (gorgeous exterior) and no substance (cheap crossover parts) to wring the last penny out of profits. A friend of mine who's had several pairs of SF abandoned the brand when it stopped using ScanSpeak drivers. It's sad because they're so gorgeous to look at.
I don't doubt this guy is technically correct in his overview, but Jesus, EVERY speaker he looks at is insufficient. His rolls his head and "whoa is me". I mean EVERY speaker needs his upgrades. No speaker you ever buy will be good enough without these upgrades. You got suckered with your speakers. I don't know how people ever enjoy music with this level of critique. Everybody has their own thing I guess.
I think you're taking it way to personal,he's merely sharing pretty obvious facts. You need to keep in mind, in what price class these speakers hang. I feel you should leave your emotions ( we all have a certain degree of bias) behind, and look at it objectively. He's sharing measurements, shows you clearly the shortcuts they took (better profit margins). Wrong wood choices (that's also in the diy world well known) .. I can appreciate the information, it allows people to make a more educated decision.
@@1922peter I'm listening to one of his designs right now. It's awesome. I have been in the room he is sitting in and have heard the black NX-Treme open baffle speakers behind him. You have never heard something like that... of that I am certain. The joke may be on you.
@@MichelLinschoten I don’t take it personally at all, I’ve been watching his videos for years. But if you don’t recognize the sales bias here, then you ARE his audience. I appreciate and glean the info I want from this, I can see the value, but can also recognize the downside.
@@stonefree1911- you do realize that this is the WHOLE point of this channel? People don’t send Danny speakers that they don’t believe need improvement. There would be no reason to post it. Danny is incredibly honest about the components and speakers that are performing well. He is specifically asked to test and create a better sound output on every speaker he tests and posts.
@@scottmackey4182 Yep and I'm just giving my opinion. I realize I'm doing it on his channel and the fanboys will revolt, but I stand by my observances. I am not alone.
pretty terible tweeter and woofer to be fair. as well as bad crossover design... its so weird, seems the only thing they can do is make things look real good... even the woofer looks nice.... but looks deceive
that is a bit unspecific, isn't it? i mean, yes, MDF swells up more than hard wood, but hard wood changes very uneven. but beside that, can you specify?
A bass should be 8 inches max, why... too much space in the woofer makes it difficult to control the bending of the material from center to bass edge [ such as cardboard ] with a good mid and a tweeter, that's my opinion. off a good speaker. the size of the cabinet and insulation is certainly also important, when they are ready let me know lol;l p.s. make sure there is a 3-way active separation filter
I have the Sonus Faber Concertinos that I had for over 25 years. I will be sending you one in January to see what you can do to make it better. I really like them. Thanks for what you do.👍
It's amazing that a speaker which most (non audiophiles) average people would think Sonus Faber is flawless and yet....not the case. GR, rock's on!
Yeah a $10K speaker that was built with about $300 worth of parts. I understand company pricepoints, but this big of a spread???
What you need to bare in mind is that speaker is probably about 25 years old, and it was the first of three in it's series. There were big changes with its predecessor.
Average person in society doesn't know what the hell is Sonus Faber... 😂
I've listened to models of SF and always heard over romantic, rolled off , mushy and in short- underwhelming. Extremely overhyped.
@@net_news Very true, I didn't factor that in and that's a hilarious comment. Thank you 👍
When I was at Sumiko years ago they explained to us that Franco Serblin designed his speakers with those cabinet resonances in mind. So rather than trying to fight against them and control/ dampen them, he embraced those resonances in his designs so the enclosure would contribute to the sound and body of the speakers performance.
I think this concept is wrong and against logic. see the spectral decay. why you want to have this cabinet resonance to add to the speaker own response? this can work with violin (which was Serblin import to the speaker cabinet concept) but seem not to work with speaker. unless somebody likes such a unrealistic sound....
@@yellow_noise3Tell that to Klipsch.
In that case, Franco Serblin is filled with bullsht.
That's a lousy excuse to compensate for an overpriced speaker that is clearly more show than go. You heard Danny in how the cabinet is designed and the choice of a "lumpy" woofer. It is cost cutting at best and laziness in acoustic design. It seems that Sonus Faber rather puts their efforts into a pretty looking speaker, rather than one that is sonically sound and while many other speaker manufacturers do that, it is unacceptable on a speaker that is priced at four figures. While they do have a nice tweeter, that will only get you so far. I've seen better, for far less.
A very Italian thing to do. We must love them for it.
Hi GR research, it is not true when you say (@17:40) that MDF is less sensitive to humidity than hardwood. In reality, it's the opposite: MDF is much more sensitive to humidity than any other wood. In this case, Plywood, especially birch plywood, is the wood to use. Anyway.........these Sonus Fabers were produced in 1987 and at the time almost all crossovers used electrolytic capacitors, so a simple upgrade with polycaps, such as the Mundorf/Jantzen capacitors, will make a huge improvement in sound. However, despite these disadvantages, these speakers were very musical and sounded very very well.
If I owned these speakers I would ONLY change the capacitors keeping the same values and saving the money GR asks for the kit!! Danny is competent for sure, but he has to sell his products
Good luck getting to the crossover to just replace caps under the goop that is smothering it..
It's not uncommon for his upgrade kits to cost 800 bucks for two speakers that just makes me roll over in my grave that I didn't know I was in
Actually Danny is correct. Me and Danny have butted heads in the past. But in this he was correct. You are correct as well. Let me explain. Solid wood is referred to as live wood. MDF is referred to as Dead wood. The reason all comes down to wood grain. Wood grain moves more with the changing of the seasons because of the grain. MDF is bonded wood which will soak up water it doesn't move as much. His point of using 2 materials was good advice. Also MDF is more consistent. Birch Plywood is considered a dead wood. They alternate the grains to minimize movement. They also use a bonding agent that helps. Its basically the same as using 2 different materials. I agree with you Birch plywood would be great for a speaker.
Let's keep in mind these speakers were designed in the 80s. Pretty good for the era. I have the modern day version of this speaker (Electa Amator III) and it is outstanding.
I bet ADS speakers would do well
You didn't pay attention to what Danny said that he comes across these issues, even with newer Sonus Faber speakers. They have a good tweeter and a nice looking cabinet, but they don't seem to be as good as a performer given to what the company charges for them. Sinus Faber is a pass for me.
@@jukingeo- I love my Sonus Faber’s but it’s because Danny designed a proper crossover setup for mine. Made a HUGE difference.
@@jukingeo you can't compare these with the garbage Sonus Faber is putting out today in this price point. These were made in a very different time, with very different company structure, and a very different mindset.
Send it to Danny and lets see some independant testing and opinion.
The woofer is audio technology, a company from mister skaaning,
He was founder of scanspeak and dynaudio..
I built speakers for my fraternity in college. Made of plywood with a horn tweeter, a horn midrange and an 18” EV woofer. Not much for imaging and I have no idea how much stored energy was in there, but I am guessing enough to power a Model Y for 3 or 4 miles. But, they were crazy efficient and could be heard inside Memorial Stadium (4 blocks away) while sitting on the front lawn of the house and being powered by my 50 watt Rotel RA-840BX2. It is all about use case.
It is definitely a different case. I was into commercial and pro audio and generally a speaker like that is designed for output and not imaging. So they are far more efficient than speakers for the home. They probably have very lumpy response curves and yeah, cabinet resonances galore. BUT they are built for a specific purpose and to that is to deliver decent sound at much higher volumes. So they had to be built to handle compression well, and also higher power amplifiers. However, I have come across some pretty darn good sounding commercial speakers, and EV is one of my favorites, especially when it comes to mids and highs.
Another fantastic re-work! Thanks for sharing! I love these content dense, to the point, crossover redesign videos. The before/after is always fantastic.
In the process of designing a 2.5 way speaker and am letting the tweeter do the same thing. Rising from ~5k towards 20k by a few dB. Should work out nice.
I enjoy building speaker cabinets from "real wood" and butcher block type wood products. Just sand an oil quick finish. I always line the interior or place several strips or patches of sticky-back asphalt type sound deadening material to the inside of these cabinets, then add various foam and polyfill materials. This seem to work well enough to keep the cabinet reasonably quiet.
Yes. Every loudpeaker is flawed in one way or another. Call it character. When we choose a loudpeaker we like, we are buying the character we like
It sure is nice to make the best out of something though, I think most would favour Danny’s version.
@david, keep in mind that the speaker was sent in by a customer who wanted better. You can't blame that customer for their choice.
@@hifiman4562 It's like sending in a vintage Rolex "to better it" with modern technology and materials. Quite a nonsense.
That speaker is a testament of a specific moment in hifi history, and deserves to be kept as original as possible. It's not a random Pioneer 15" woofer crap.
@@andreabincoletto8609 Nonsense. We have freedom in America.
@@hifiman4562
It's not a matter of freedom, it's a matter of respect, little man.
Another success. Well done
Well done, as usual ! Very informative.
A friend of mine bought a pair of DIY monitors from GR research, my Vienna accoustics Hayn grand sound wayyyyyy better , acourding to Danny there is no better speaker than his speakers , all other speakers are shit , well let me tell you Danny , your DIY speakers are ehhhhh not very good , maybe you should do a video on an upgrade of one of you're own speakers ?
Haaaa😂aaaaaaaaaa😂aaaaa
Nice try
Any idea how they attach that front baffle to the enclosure? Seems like the leather wrap would get in the way of gluing the front baffle to the panels.
@5:45 I'd swear that with a 10 base logarithm, +10dB would be twice as loud, not just 3dB. +3dB usually needs double the power, but doubling the power doesn´t double the perceived volume.
A 3 dB change is typically what it takes for a human to "hear there was a change".
@Old_Sailor85 No, 1dB typically is but my experience tells me even less depending on frequency.
If Danny has a wizards hat he should wear it just by looking at any speaker he can diagnose all the trouble.
I perfectly agree with everything he says .No speaker is perfect for everything.The best midrange I’ve ever heard was a Scan Speak Revelator the one with the slits in the paper I think it’s the damper in the black goo they put on the slits .Hey Danny blow our minds build a 3 way with revelator drivers and you pick the guts would love to buy a pr with the pinnacle of your dreams
I've used the Revelator drivers. I actually like them down low, but the heavy moving mass of those models loose out quickly in ranges above 800Hz or so to our drivers. Yep, ours sound better.
Black Ocean Audio does that real wood exterior with internal MDF.
Think you might’ve misspoke. 3db louder is twice the power not perceived as twice as loud.
Right, typically it's 10 db that is percived as twice as loud, 3 db is best described as a perceivable difference in loudness yet taked twice the power to achieve.
. Oh great, now someone's 'gotta look it up. I thought it was. to raise 3db at 1 meter more took twice the power. And 6db up, from the same distance, is twice the amplitude.
No, he is correct!
Danni is wrong. Navid and Dude are correct. Empirically, doubling/halving the power changes the dB by 3. Perceptually, a 10 dB swing doubles the perceptual /qualitative experience
correct. 6dB is twice as loud.
* loudness is proportional to the amount of moved air times the frequency.
* double the amplitude results in double the moved air.
* double the voltage is double the amplitude.
formula: 20*log (U2/U1) in dB. double the voltage means 20*log(2/1) = 6.0206 dB, usually rounded to 6dB.
for people who are not electrical engineers: power is not proportional to voltage.
double the voltage results in 4 times the power ==> P = U² * R.
if you double the power you get sqrt(2) of voltage.
20*log(sqrt(2)/1) = 3.01 dB
That speaker is one of the most beautiful small speakers I have ever seen, the wood design is a work of art, they choose that woofer maybe because is more beautiful than others, but a Vifa polypropylene woofer would measure and sound better as polypropylene gives smother frequency response, I know Vifa is gone but I made a speaker using a Vifa P21WO-20-08 which is the same as Vandersteen 2 and it sounded fantastic
Keep up your good work Danny.
Forget the naysayers and keep enjoy doing what u r doing.
Keep these vidz coming ❤
So you only want "Positive" comments? I would think all sincere and honest views would be welcome, as long as they are stated in a polite way. I have news for you: NO speaker or audio site is going to have all opinions agree.
The video thumbnail is an Elector Amator 2, EISA speaker of the year 1998, and Dannys taking apart what looks to be an Elector Amator 1. Tweeters are different.
Electa, not Elector.
The thumbnails are created by my editor. I usually don't see them until you do.
The Electa Amator II is an entirely different design. It has a ScanSpeak tweeter, ScanSpeak midwoofer and a passive ScanSpeak radiator on the back which, knowing SF, could as well be a full sized unit wired as some kind of passive radiator as they did with the Extrema.
I soldier, cut leads as short as possible, and space components apart,brace cabinets like a skyscraper, build my stands and fill with sand. 2 wires per + and - lead. Use air core and good capacitors in crossover. My attention to details placement and 50 years experience helps to build systems that leave folks
Stunned. I am decorating the cabinet with 1 in baffle board of aged heart pine mounted like a cover. Panty hose pro tect the open baffle duo vertical 2 in vifa on top , 600hz to 6000hz then the ribbons on upper baffle.the point to have a shortest line from top to bottom of baffle. You don't need big open baffles or drivers big subs for bass, 8's for mid bass, ribbons for top end . These Systems I've built are still being used and the owners are happy. Most have died now and my work jams on. Always do your best work
Send it in to Danny he’ll fix it.
The mod looks like it might be very bright/forward with the 4-10k bump? And to nitpick, 3dB is not perceived as a doubling of level.
If the mids (200-1000Hz) were the same output level as the 1-3Khz range I could see that being a problem, but generally speaking most "brightness" is found in the 1-3Khz range where human hearing is typically most sensitive. With the 1-3KHz range being soft compared to the other ranges you're more likely to hear it a less having less "attack" or "presence" rather than the treble being bright.
Always an eye opener. Thanks Danny!
That woofer is an early Audio Technologie. From a developer that worked for Dynaudio and has now his own company. Flexible units, if you want a specific set of parameters, he will build it for you. Far beter membranes these days.
It's AudioTechnology / Skaaning from before the C-Quenze lineup.
I had those speakers back in 1996. They were amazing back then.
For 10 grand a pair, they should suck you off
@@vegaslimoguy2376 you really should see if you can get a listen to a pair before you trash them so badly. I owned a pair of the Electa Amator II's, and I can absolutely assure you that they do not sound like $300 worth of parts. Even back in the day those DynAudio tweeters were going for more than that.
they are an absolute classic... take it or leave it.
Hi Danny have you had a look at Q acoustics concept 500 they have very well made inert Mdf sandwich cabs with non setting gel between the layers with other interesting resonance control my issue is they sound a bit dull in the treble at low to medium volume unless I pump up the treble on my Michi X5 .Because i live in the UK sending them to you would be out of the question ,but its possible someone in the States has a pair top upgrade .?
Ron Brenay did a review of their best stand mounted model. He brought them over here to hear them in my system to get some additional listening on them. I heard them when they were here. They didn't bother me. Nothing bad stood out. They were easy to listen to. They were easily bettered by our X-LS Encore though.
These were about 4 or 5 grand back in the early 90s. Stereophile went on and on about how good they were.
I’ve been running a pair for the last 15 years. The Amators are still going 💪 👌
The raw drivers from Morel are good choices nowadays for applications where the Dynaudio raw drivers were used before. The limitation in a lot of dynaudio drivers was due to use of ferrite magnets since neodymium magnets were not in wide use yet, and the newer and better Morel products are using some neodymium magnets in addition to ferrite, and some better cone materials also. Morel is also making - and learning from - many of the custom drive units for Magico; this type of collaboration is common because of the expense in setting up a dedicated loudspeaker assembly line; it's more cost effective to make custom drivers with a speaker manufacturer like Seas, Scan-Speak, or Morel (or even Faital, SICA, and Ciare in Italy or other suppliers in Asia) even if the design is unique to a speaker manufacturer's product, than to totally custom-tool a unique design.
Do you never measured problems with older Esotar 330 because of his ferro fluid? Thanks!
I own a pair of TAOC FC3000 and I had problems with the foam inside the esotar TD-330 tweeters because the stuff was disintegrating like dust. The sound became harsh and beamy, disjointed between highs and mid to lows. This happened gradually so it is difficult to detect. One day to another I thought that the loudspeakers sounded worse than shit so I determined to see if I could fix them or die trying 😅.
My taoc moniyors sound awesome, but the operation is very risky and the outcome could have easily ended in a lot of wasted money. I replaced the foam with something similar. I think Dynaudio knew these issues and that could be the reason why they use now a perforated dome mesh just behind the outer fabric dome. They use that technology instead of stuffing the vented pole with deaden fiber of foam. It's my hipotesis anyway.
@@salvadorrodenas3071 Ok, but I really don’t see where there might be foam in this tweeter. I saw pictures of dissembled esotars, where the ferro fluid was changed, but I never saw… foam.
@dieterleonard2309 the ferrofluid is in the magnetic gap and the foam is in the center hole just behind the dome. The esotar TD-330 tweeter have a big hole stuffed with foam. Look for in the internet and you'll see it.
@@salvadorrodenas3071 Ok, but in my Esotar 330d there is really no foam, because I am able to look through the dome to the center of the magnet, and I can see the black circle on it. Perhaps it depends on the age of the Esotar? My Esotars are about 15-18 years old.
@dieterleonard2309 you can't see it because the foam is dark. Also, the white circumference around the black circle, is white felt pad. The translucent dome doesn't let you distinguish what's really behind it.
I warn you do not open it unless it is absolutely necessary. In case you opt to open it, ask for a professional or take your time to prepare yourself to do accordingly to the procedures. It's very easy to break the thin wire that feeds the coil when you remove the front plate. Be very careful if you do.
Sonus Faber knows if it looks amazing its assumed the sound must be amazing too. Clever marketing. Very interesting video.
I recently bought two brand new ATC SMC150 pro active speakers. Long story short: Drivers are near perfect. The case and cabling sucks. Build a new case with same dimensions, using better and thicker wood, laminated with resonance damping kit. Used silver coated copper cable, lots of NoRez. Now I am happy.
I ordered crossovers from Parts Express for a pair of RCA(Radio Shack) three way floor speakers, knowing full well that they mixed in iron core with aircore inductors along with
electrolytic caps in the new crossovers.
But the project was from a hobby standpoint, along with knowing that I was improving the speaker equivalent of a Chevy Vega or Ford Pinto.
So with that in mind, There weren't any Corvette, or Cobra engines being considered for the upgrade.
With Goldwood woofers and mid-ranges, and Morel tweeters along with added bracing,and being careful to match the sensitivity of each new driver, they sound rather respectable now.
The whole point is, I guess I don't have the trained ear to catch the difference between all aircore inductors, and full polycap resistors, and their lesser counterparts.
What exactly is smearing?
Smearing is when those budget level parts hold then release the signal causing a time domain blur that covers over and looses detail and resolution.
Remember, it’s Italian. So looks and appearance matter the most. There, I said it (and I’m half Italian btw)
i would not say that these speakers are bad in context of the 80s. second half of the 80s was all about fake watt numbers, sometimes claiming 1000Watt peak. competition was not the same in the high quality hifi compared to now.
but yes, they where not cheap either.
music is about beauty and these speakers look and SOUND beautiful.
@@net_news Of course they are.
Minor correction. Twice as loud is +10dB, not +3dB as stated by Danny
interesting review. Sonus Fabers from this era were mostly built with 1st order slopes. Believe 1st orders were used to minimize phase shift through the crossover point. Back when these were built, a lot of the high quality parts available today were not present back then. Would be an interesting listening comparison to do: A. the new GR research xover with 2nd and 3rd parts vs. B - the stock crossover rebuilt with equivalent quality parts (caps, resistors, inductors). The latest version of these speakers actually has a clear window over the crossover parts so the buyer can see what quality level of parts are being used.
These drivers needed a LOT more than a first order filter to control the response issues. So regardless of the quality of parts, those issues would still remain.
Those speakers were $10,000 a pair back in '95. (OUCH!!!!)
Yeah, that's trolling. I don't even spend that much on a WHOLE SYSTEM, let alone one component. There is a point where it just gets way out of hand and $10k for speakers is well beyond that.
To each their own. Some people spend a lot more on their system and even their speakers. I looked at a turn table the other day at $350K + = definitely not for everyone but those who appreciate that kind of value/quality are willing to pay for it.
@scottmackey4182 a $350k turntable tends to be an engineering masterpiece, and almost a work of art. The value is in the object itself, not in the sound reproduction. I love high-end turntables, and would buy one given a suitable lottery win, but they struggle to match much cheaper digital sources in terms of absolute sound quality. But, a bespoke, all analogue, tube powered system in its own room would be a dream come true. Pure theatre to operate, and worth the money for that alone.
According to Stereophile, they had a list price of $4500 / pair in 1992...
@@scottmackey4182 I saw that turntable too and to pay that amount for it demonstrates an intellect that borders on the imbecilic.
Good job Danny. Really like to do Sonus upgrade. Always liked the looks.
I think the black stuff was to hide stuff and try to cut down resonance. In some of my DIY I use roofing paint “tar paint” that is sold for mobile homes. Actually works pretty good for the price.
BUT how does it sound ?
Immer schön die Katze im Sack kaufen. Und noch total überteuert!👎👎🇩🇪
If he tried to describe how they sound, what would that even mean to you anyway, it would be his subjective view in his vocabulary! The best way IS to show you with the graphs!
The video thumbnail shows an Electa Amator 2 but the actual speaker in the video is Electa Amator 1. These are different speakers. The 2 has scanspeak drivers with a passive radiator and sounds different (and better in my opinion). The 1 does sound like having a shouty quacky midrange and a one notey bass to me.
I have the mk1's which IMHO has a better tweeter being the Esotar 330 which was used for the marvellous Sonus Faber Extremas
@@obeahuk I agree the 1 has better tweeters but it sounds detached from the mediocre sounding mids.
Sorry about that. My editor just grabbed a picture that he found online.
I have a pair what did you use to correct these ?
So you're saying tonewoods are not good for speaker cabinets? Who knew?!
You can use them, just not on their own.
when i was NEW to speaker cabinet, i was think MDF is cheap. there is a reason for that.
wood have high resonate frequencies
I own the Electa II’s
Love them. Have you had this version in your shop?
Nope.
Which is better for speaker cabinet material, MDF or HDF?
HDF is even denser, but both are good materials.
technical answer: it depend how the woofer frequencies response and the resonance frequency of material.
HDF no maybe, or kind of or depends about it.
I've heard various iterations of the Electa, and usually loved them. Always sounded coherent and incredibly resolving to my ears. Actually, now that I think about it, most of the models I've seen had those carbon fiber mid woofers (scanspeak?).
It would be nice to know what the sonic improvements have been gained from not just this but all of your upgrades? I don’t doubt the sound has improved, it would be nice Danny, if you could just elaborate a little with how much did the sound actually improve.
Have always wondered what you would think of the Focal 1038 be.
Typically they have a sharp sound to them. Parts quality is fair to poor. There is some room for improvements.
I enjoy your videos, and as an engineer appreciate all the measurements. But I never see the most important thing, how did the sound of the speakers change? When these improvements were made, how did they affect the real world sound.
What do you want? Sound clips?
What do you use to stuff cabinets? I have some Forte's that I lined with no-res and I've used some polyfill is there something you like better?
I personally like fiberglass a little better than polyfill.
Danny, does lining the internal walls of an enclosure with No Rez take away from it's internal volume? If we take for granite that the manufacturer chose the woofer based on the size of the box or tuned the port for a specific amount of airspace (bass reflex). Will the No Rez effect the port's tuning?
The short answer is no, he has explained it a few times before !
No Rez uses a foam layer that slows down the airflow in the box making it seem bigger to the woofer (by a small amount) and counteracting the space taken up by the damping layer.
Hi Danny. Very interesting commentary on this video and great explanation of the resonance shown in the charts. I learned something. QUESTION: For this build you're adding filters, but are you keeping the existing crossover in the circuit since it was covered with black goop and bonded to the back panel? Or, are you bypassing it and just adding the new circuit you came up with? Thanks.
yes, in this cake the stock crossover was left inside the speaker, as removing it would have been a ton of work. So, you would just remove the old wiring and bypass it altogether, using the new crossover.
Could you fix Klipsch la scalia
That would be a tough pone, but I can definitely make them better.
For the amount of parts you had to add and I assume it's going to be pretty expensive a woofer swap with a single order high-quality filter it's probably a better path.
1st-order slopes rarely ever work as well as one would hope, regardless of how the driver's quality appears on paper.
Hay everbudy, if'n that old Einstein had consulted me before puttin' out that old theory of relativity, I coulda improved it.
next... let's redesign Mozart 😂
Absolutely inept metaphor. The SF are badly flawed with cheap parts. The theory of relativity will eventually be enhanced like all science.
A suo tempo ebbi molte occasioni di ascoltare queste Sonus Faber con amplificazioni Electrocompaniet e Bryston e le trovai stupende: con il Bryston LP2 PRO, in particolare, ricordo una sessione di ascolto con "La Folia de la Spagna" di Paniagua (Harmonia Mundi) semplicemente memorabile.
How do they sound after?
The woofer is not Dynaudio but AudioTechnology / Skaaning (same guys). Saying goes Franco Serblin did his speakers by ear, not measurements.
Considering the value, I'd say these should be absolutely left alone as they were.
Yeah, but they way they were was a mess. The cabinet rang, the response was rough, they had ferrous parts in the signal path, cheap parts, etc. Maybe someone should have showed him how to use some measurement tools.
Also, the stickers on the motor structure said Dynaudio.
maybe a combination of hard wood with a low density fiber panel is a good idea as well. a low density fiber panel has probably more inner damping than MDF.
Isn't it more feasible to just buy another speaker?
In this case the customer had an emotional attachment to them.
I'm surprised the kit didn't include a new woofer. ;)
If I only had a woofer that would fit that hole....
I was elated to hear Danny recommending using dissimilar materials to damp resonances. I have a set of four sealed subs with cabinet walls made with layers of MDF, HDF, Baltic Birch plywood and fiber-reinforced cement board with a half inch outer layer of walnut. It took three months to build and finish the cabinets. It also took two guys to wrestle each one in position using a hand truck once the 50-pound drivers and 1.5 inch granite tops were installed. I just hope I never have to move them. 🙄
Be cool if you could measure the actual cabinet resonances to see where they are and their amplitude and Q
I have an acellometer that allows us to do that, and we have been using it a lot lately.
I seen some crossovers from higher end at there website I saw sandcasters also saw sandcaster in rows in amplifiers high end amplifiers
Why did you not install a couple of internal braces??
The speaker is about more than 30 years old, would the age deteriorate and affect the measurements ?
Not much. Some capacitors can drift a little, and sometime the compliance of the woofer can change depending on the type of materials used, but that is usually only an issue with foam surrounds.
3 dB is not twice as loud , it requires twice the power. 10dB is twice as loud
Danny would you pop over to the UK and design a crossover for my speakers please
Damn ur good!!!
why on earth did they make a wavy cutout for a circular woofer
What's the freaking use of dishing out big money for brand name ultra hi-fi speakers if they have all these defects ?
That's why I've switched to pro audio monitors for all new acquisitions.
Some speaker manufacturers made great cabinets and they look good, so of pure nostalgia and keen on the vintage look, why not spend some quality on these speakers. Recycle, instead of buying new, that’s mass produced in a big plant in Asia?
They aren't defects, whan Danny essentialy does is killing the charm these speakers have, nobody says that ruler flat sounds best - becuase it sounds dead. It's the same rookie mistake they do with electronics design - it is not supposed to be flat because our ears don't have flat sensitivity. This is why in the real hi-end designs almost nobody does it, or they add distortions in controllable way to achieve a certain sound signature.
@@puciohenzap891 you are just angry that anyone might tambor with these unique things, changing them to the better, FOR THE ONE PERSON, that did send these speakers to Danny.
When these speakers were designed they didn’t have the measurements instruments as Danny has today. They couldn’t measure then. NOW we can. Try to understand this. Old ain’t the best, but nostalgia is big.
@@puciohenzap891 If "charm" is what you are after that is fine, but the original owner did not like the "charm". As a speaker designer myself I can't begin to explain the error in your post! Everyone knows about the BBC dip and the Fletcher/Munsen curve, our ears are not linear. Designers are not adding distortion, they simply don't address it because it costs money to do it. Now days these same companies are addressing some of these issues, although not to the extent Danny does. I'm hoping you are here for the same reason I am, to learn something new from Danny, because your post tells me you know very little on the topic of speakers or acoustics!
Danny your thumbnail looks to be the Electa Amator II's, whereas the speakers you reviewed seems to be the Electa Amator I's. The major change between them was that the II's had a flush mounted woofer. Memory is fading now but I think a set of Electa Amator II's were the first Sonus Faber speakers I owned. I absolutely loved them, other than their lack of low end grunt, but that top end was so sweet. I am really bummed that you couldn't get the crossover out, because I would have loved to have seen the differences between it and the photo I sent you via email of the crossover I had in the Sonus Faber Cremona's I used to own.
The Electa Amator II had a passive woofer on the back, while the original model had a bass reflex. They were quite different.
@@stefanoallari2154 there was a passive radiator on the back from memory. presumably to eliminate any port noise.
My editor grabbed a picture from the Internet for the thumbnail.
The II had scanspeak woofers which are quite nice.
@@jonathandavis9507 are you sure? I am fairly familiar with a lot of the Scanspeak drivers and I don't recognise it.
Think the woofer is scanspeak.
Sonus faber was the original snob-hyped speaker. They waxed poetic about the glories. I listened, and they all sounded mushy, polite, rolled off. In short, over romantic and inept. Laughably bad parts and construction for so much cash.
The only brand where owners brag about cabinet resonance as if it was a Stradivari body.
Why do manufactures keep making audio equipment with big issues? It doesn't need to be perfect, but please leave the customer with the feeling they haven't been ripped off.
You’re looking for problem when there should have none. You will never be satisfied. I listened to this speaker and to me it sounds good and that’s it.
I am sure for many people, just good, is fine. However, there are audible issues with this one and the parts quality (or lack there of) is a bottleneck. Some people want a little more out of their listening experience, and in this case, the upgrade offers a LOT more.
Uh oh. I hope this video doesn't start another online flame war with the Korean kid. He reviewed and liked this model (or an SF model that looked about the same).
Dan, you break my brain sometimes. You literally sell products with same/similar response, but now 2.5 db is out of range>? No reply is wanted or necessary, the numbers are talkin here. Just be silent please while the numbers speak!
Cheers 🍻
It is not just about whether or not the overall response falls within an industry standard or not. In this case there were stored energy issues, cheesy parts, cabinet resonances, etc.
@@dannyrichie9743 :
Stop I said, please just be silent!
Just some observations on upper scaled models I have had and I did look. Totem acoustic I had a set back in 1999 and was told and even shown by the dealer. The driver was the famous Dynaudio 6.5 With 3' voice coil. And the tweeter was a well knows seas. The Crossovers we stunning , high end caps and wire... Minimal amount of parts. Very well made cabinets.
I found out later that was all a lie... the Driver was made by a chiinese company.
I have also looked into dynaudio speakers And for a 3700 a pair of bookshelf speakers, the crossover was about 100 dollars worth of parts.
So seeing this with sonus farber is not a surprising revel.
Anyone else had and heard this with totem. Please chime in. I would be interested in knowing how true or false that is. The driver do not show the fab.
again this would be on old totems...
Totally agree with Danny. Sonus Faber is a fine woodworking workshop, like almost all Italian loudspeakers manufacturers. Appearance is all they have to offer, no any acoustics advances or special properties to talk about, just good looking. From the first models till now just wow effect of fine woodwork, for those who look for nice furniture(WAF)
Wrong.
Patents and budget constraints dont help either. Manufacturers have to focus attention on areas that doesn't infringe on a patent. Imagine a design where all ideas are implemented. DALI (SMC), BORESEN very low inductance drivers, ROCKPORT inert cabinets, AUDIOPHYSICS Spiderless midrange drivers, SONUS FABER DAD Tweeter technology etc etc. No guarantee it will sound good however
I will definitely agree with Danny here about parts quality. It is Fu%k#ng redicoulous for manufactures. To charge these high prices and supply crap crossover parts. Personally, I have never liked Sonus Faber. I have always known Sonus Faber was more about looks than performance. SF is one of those companies that over charge so much. The customer has no choice but to subscribe to confirmation bias.
The potted crossover parts should be a clue that something is amiss. Supposedly SF laminates that Hard Wood in a certain way to eliminate resonance. It is not actually a solid piece of wood.....Allegedly! Plus, don't fall for the " these are an old Sonus Faber speakers". SF has more expensive and recent models that donot out perform this model Danny has measured.
How much do up grades cost ?
We will have it up on the website shorty.
"redesign" a classic Sonus Faber?! Really? 😱
Oh yeah, and it really needed it.
@@dannyrichie9743 I don't think so, but hey, not my sonus faber's :D
@@net_news Oh yeah, what model do you have?
@@dannyrichie9743 minima amator II
@@net_news :-) Have a look inside at the crossover, then tell me they don't need an upgrade.
10dB SPL is subjectively twice as loud says psychoacoustics
Apparently the only speakers that sound good are from GR research? Blah blah blah.
I guess you have not been watching our video's. We have giving out quite a bit of praise lately.
So basically no one makes a good speaker
Danny does! ;)
If you want to pay top dollar for inferior part have at it. The problem I have is these high end companies pray on the consumers that can't afford their top of the line component and use their high end name as bragging rights for the uneducated consumer purchasing their lower cost and lower quality speakers.
Good speakers don't get sent in
@@Bigirondougit's even worse in the auto industry
Amen....
stop talking bad about him. of course you can improve every speaker. knowing there are 30 50 100k speakers out there its not hard to understand everything old or speakers under 10k is easy upgradeable. just like engines are improvable. speakers are made to sell. not to create the best sound . so often you see woofers that do oke up to 2khz and tweeters that do oke from 2hz. so they can use minimum crossover parts. or simply choose simple cabinet design what better for mass production. instead of bracing. round cabinets. rubber bitumen insides. or use cheaper woods.
for me it just sounds you dont know what you are talking about.. this man makes kits that beat 5 to 7 times more expensive speakers. no doubt.. he sells them for very cheaply because he loves to do it. not to make a ton of money. and speaking against him hurt me because he is a very good man .
ElectOR, not Electra!!!
It's Electa Amator, actually, you are wrong as well.
Mid-fi at hi-fi prices, speaker kits are much better.
these speakers are from the 80s! it was not that easy to get very good kits in the 80s.
today you get affordable measurement microphones with a cheap behringer soundcard and free software to measure and optimize that as a hobbyist. that was not possible for a hobbyist in the 80s.
@@stefanweilhartner4415Blödsinn. Der Höhepunkt des diy waren wohl die 80er und 90er.
@@thomasschafer7268 Stop spewing nonsense, thanks. Current material and cabinet design is lightyears ahead. It's just the problem that people got lazy and create lazy arse designs that they then 'fix' with DSP.
I only care about how it sounds in a normal european livingroom.... some things are technical perfect and still sound like s@#t.... ah well
Usher copied this cabinet …718 models
Not even close.
Those that hate on Danny can’t handle facts . He’s literally trying to help us from getting ripped off
Can't trust practically any speaker manufacturer. It's all Wizard of Oz stuff-behind the curtain. You really have to listen to the speaker however. See if the graphs tell the whole story. These manufacturers are staking their reputation on what they put out, so without giving a listen, possibly A/B/C even with good part speakers with smooth response, decay, impedance etc. you really don't know if you like the sound. I like a good part only if I can hear it, and it's worth paying a time and a half for a speaker I already liked when I auditioned it.
He should be selling used cars
Sonus Faber sold its soul to Private Equity Bean Counters and went all style (gorgeous exterior) and no substance (cheap crossover parts) to wring the last penny out of profits. A friend of mine who's had several pairs of SF abandoned the brand when it stopped using ScanSpeak drivers. It's sad because they're so gorgeous to look at.
Oh look, another infomercial.
He should hire the SHAM WOW guy!!! Martini! Linguine! Bikini!!! Into the matting into the padding!! Sham wow!!!!
...yet, here you are...
I don't doubt this guy is technically correct in his overview, but Jesus, EVERY speaker he looks at is insufficient. His rolls his head and "whoa is me". I mean EVERY speaker needs his upgrades. No speaker you ever buy will be good enough without these upgrades. You got suckered with your speakers. I don't know how people ever enjoy music with this level of critique. Everybody has their own thing I guess.
I think you're taking it way to personal,he's merely sharing pretty obvious facts. You need to keep in mind, in what price class these speakers hang.
I feel you should leave your emotions ( we all have a certain degree of bias) behind, and look at it objectively. He's sharing measurements, shows you clearly the shortcuts they took (better profit margins). Wrong wood choices (that's also in the diy world well known) ..
I can appreciate the information, it allows people to make a more educated decision.
@@1922peter I'm listening to one of his designs right now. It's awesome. I have been in the room he is sitting in and have heard the black NX-Treme open baffle speakers behind him. You have never heard something like that... of that I am certain. The joke may be on you.
@@MichelLinschoten I don’t take it personally at all, I’ve been watching his videos for years. But if you don’t recognize the sales bias here, then you ARE his audience. I appreciate and glean the info I want from this, I can see the value, but can also recognize the downside.
@@stonefree1911- you do realize that this is the WHOLE point of this channel? People don’t send Danny speakers that they don’t believe need improvement. There would be no reason to post it. Danny is incredibly honest about the components and speakers that are performing well. He is specifically asked to test and create a better sound output on every speaker he tests and posts.
@@scottmackey4182 Yep and I'm just giving my opinion. I realize I'm doing it on his channel and the fanboys will revolt, but I stand by my observances. I am not alone.
pretty terible tweeter and woofer to be fair. as well as bad crossover design... its so weird, seems the only thing they can do is make things look real good... even the woofer looks nice.... but looks deceive
I've been looking at your hair,you can't comb that stuff! Looks like all you can do is beat it into submission! Lol!
It does what it does... When I was young, I had hair like Fabio. At my age now, I don't really worry too much about it.
I don't agree with anything this man says.
REASON?
@@stevevaughn299he's trying to sell product...these are infomercials... nothing more
That is your right.
that is a bit unspecific, isn't it?
i mean, yes, MDF swells up more than hard wood, but hard wood changes very uneven.
but beside that, can you specify?
A bass should be 8 inches max, why... too much space in the woofer makes it difficult to control the bending of the material from center to bass edge [ such as cardboard ] with a good mid and a tweeter, that's my opinion. off a good speaker. the size of the cabinet and insulation is certainly also important, when they are ready let me know lol;l
p.s. make sure there is a 3-way active separation filter