What WWII did to the Christian church in America (no one talks about this)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- What WWII did to the Christian church in America (no one talks about this)
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My father came back from WWII & met my Mom who was a Catholic. Wanting to marry her, he went to the Priest who informed him that he needed to attend training that would require him to give up his job which they both needed. After much discussion, Dad told Mom that he couldn’t become Catholic, so they married at the courthouse. They stayed together their whole lives & were never happier. Because of this & war experience, I think why I was raised without the church? But now at 67 realize how important the church really is. I love Jesus & hope to get baptized & show Jesus that I am fully committed to him. God bless you All!
Sounds like Dad fibbed to Mom about having to lose his job!
Yep. The Catholic Church is the true Church that was established by Christ, our lord and saviour. Church is important, and one's salvation is more important than material matters. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God have mercy on us sinners. Amen.
God bless you. ✝️🇻🇦
Well catholothism isnt bible based unfortunatley. So they did you a favor.
I've never heard of any Catholics who have to give up their jobs to attend marriage training. If that were the case, nobody would go for those training classes. Youd dad lied to your mom and you and shame on your mom for falling for that lie.
@@AnonymousIdealisttechnically the Orthodox Church is the one established by Jesus, until the Catholics seceded in 1054.
Thank you! Nailed it! You are 100 percent right! After the Army I have struggled being in church. I love Jesus, but the church is missing what it needs terribly.
But there are always wars and has been since the church started so what’s different now?
Im a woman and even I dont like the overtly emotional environment, i really dont like the nightclub type of lighting and drums etc either. If I wanted to go to a concert, I would..
America became hyper individualistic. It’s all about our personal preferences. That’s why some people don’t ‘like’ church. It’s impossible to please everyone.
Do you know what you're looking for in a church?
@user-nh5pi4ox7q... Let me be frank.
Attending church is an act of obedience. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I go because the bible specifically tells me "not to fail to meet together". I am warned that this is "the habit of some".
I also go because all of the gifts and talents given me by God are for the building and uplifting of the church/Body.
Yes. What the pastor states here may have some bearing but, essentially, it's just an excuse for people (including single men) to not be obedient.
And by the way?
I DON'T like church.
I go to please Jesus and because I do, others are blessed (as am I).
As Christians we are always looking for reasons to not be and/do what God desires.
It's sad.
Thank you, perfectly said. In 1990, I began a home school group in my home with a few women and our children. I attended other home school groups in my area. The men were all at work and not involved leading their families. The events were absolute chaos. The children an embarrassment in public. I got my husband and the other husband's involved by teaching and field trips. We became the fastest, largest, most organized home school group in our county. The husband's were empowered to lead, the wives were so relieved. The husband's said once to the children, that the wives said multiple times to the children who rarely listened. We went from a few women meeting in my family room, children playing in the backyard to having to rent church buildings and recreational facilities. We need men leading, women nurturing.
We need both. Men and women empowering and supporting one another, powerful role models. A divided house cannot stand. It is not one gender or the other needs to lead. Both need to be present and on the same page, and the wider community must be in on it too. But hats off to you for pulling together with your homeschool group. I believe that as long as all parties are in agreement and work well in fellowship, it doesn't matter how you've decided to divide the roles!
Well said, not having leading male figures in life can have lifelong consequences. My father was hardly ever involved in my life, he’s always been a narcissist who placed his family last and enjoys control, drinking, and gambling. He was not at all a role model to me, bullied me most of my life. I wish I had a home school group like yours I could have attended as a kid, I didn’t even have relatives in this country growing up, If I had I could’ve spent my time with them but it wasn’t an option. I had no male role model in life.
@@Mr.Obongo I'm so sorry to hear that. I was lucky enough to have a father who I would consider a good man, but his own father was as you describe, everything but drinking and gambling, yet a tyrant until shortly before he died. Because of him the two of us resented authority, and my father lived his life believing himself an idiot. He became very lazy and depressed -- I can relate. There are two sides of the coin when it comes to masculine figures. You want neither one, nor the other. If only more men exemplified Jesus, and we could encourage this. Bless you, and know that none of what you went through with your father was ever your fault.
@ItsJustAdrean the problem is, if men are not invited, encouraged, and *expected* to step up, they withdraw and whither away. This is a much more prominent trait amongst men and something women have a hard time understanding (if they know it at all). Many people wish this were not the case, but it is, and cannot be avoided. Any plan for social cooperation that doesn't factor this in will have difficulty producing lasting, positive results.
@@rebbrown7140 I think part of that is human nature. If you fear your contribution is unwanted, naturally you won't step up. Part of this also lends to the fact the church no longer operates as it did in the days of the apostles. Worship was not lead by one single person the entire time or only a handful. Different members of the congregation each got their moment in the sun to speak and edify those present, to lead prayers and song, and so on. Today it's pastor, choir, band, maybe a Sunday school teacher, and that's all. Not an inviting environment for men whose first instinct is to go, fix, and otherwise assist!
The premise that men do not like effeminate worship is accurate. Attributing the demise to WWII is not. The female takeover really began in the 60's and grew from that point. WWII took mostly young men. Men 40 and older were running society during the war. These were not softy affable granddads. These were vets of WWI, who raised families in the impossible circumstances of the dust bowl and depression. And were also the children of those who tamed the frontier. A large proportion were agricultural, meaning hard labor from dawn to dusk. The suggestion they were inferior to the young men off fighting is just insulting. They were iron hard and extremely intolerant of poor character. They led patriarchal families and churches. The WWII generation inherited their grit from them. Following WWII a massive spiritual revival occurred in which men home from the war and proceeded to start the largest missionary effort in the history of Christendom. Former GIs took the gospel to all corners of the globe! My personal mentor and many of his associates were veterans who converted after seeing the horror of war. And as a pastor from a denomination that existed before and during and after the war, the church records showing the make up of members and deacons and elders will prove that the church was exclusively male led until the sexual revolution of the 60's. I am not sure what historical records were used by Pastor Driscoll to arrive at his conclusions.
Agreed. His point is too tidy, and does not take other factors into account.
Thanks for the history!
You’re 100% right. Driscoll typically doesn’t do much deep research into his opinions.
This is just pop psychology. There's a myriad of factors of declining numbers of the Christian church-men and women.
This guy just peddles this same nonsense over and over again.
I'm with you brother.
I'm older my mother told me during WW2 that every young man she went to high school with went to war , no one came back from the war ,they all died , and that whole generation of young men in her small town where gone
That is really really sad and terrible
War takes out the best men, and the weaker stay home and reproduce.
Statistically, I believe that it would not be possible for them all to have died. Not unless the high school only had a few students.
My father was in WWII. Of all the families I knew, only one had men that died in the war. I'm sure there were others, but there were plenty left to fill up all the school classrooms to the brim with children. Hence the name, baby boomers.
I am a combat veteran and served as a pilot. You are spot on with your points concerning the present state of America’s churches. You touched on the area of feminized worship leaders. I know worship teams try very hard, but I find it very hard sometimes to get swept up into the worship music fervor. So many worship songs today are “Jesus is my boyfriend!” To me, Jesus is my King, Lord, and Savior. Unfortunately, I don’t see this problem being fixed. 😢
My wife and I have a hard time attending the worship service because of today's worship. The choirs which were able to give the hymns and even some more contemporary songs like Steve Green's "God and God alone", "The Mission", "Embrace the Cross", and "Enter In", a more transcendent sense of the greatness of God are gone. Just contemporary bands with endless repetition like a Buddhist chant, drums constantly pounding away, giving you little time to ponder and reflect on how awesome God is. It's an appeal simply to the emotions and body, not the whole soul (mind, emotion, and will), let alone the spirit.
It probably won't get fixed.
In the early 1900s the first Concepts of change management were developed by Kurt Lewin.
To keep this short it's.
Unfreeze-change- refreeze.
It takes about 3 generations to change the culture completely.
The war was the Unfreeze part where there was a deliberate break between the generations.
Children as small as 13 -14 years of age were sent to war, those who came back majority had PTSD.
Refreeze.
The evil whatever it is made sure the culture does not bounce back after the war and Hollywood , television , feminism, video games, satanic hard rock music, introduced new age culture, yoga, LGBTQ+++ and the list of distractions continue.
All this to get Jesus Christ out of our hearts.
It must be really important to the devil.
You should visit a church that doesn't have a band, like the LCMS.
Give Catholicism a try
This is actually a really good sermon. Much better than I expected. Well done, keep doing what you're doing.
THIS has been on my spirit for a few years now as the Lord revealed to me His desire for men to be bold for His Kingdom!
Always believed in Jesus and GOD, but spent my entire teens (the most important part) of my faith going to dead churches. Found myself feeling extreme guilt but I just didn’t find the fire and the spirit anywhere I went until I found Oceans church in Southern California. They truly changed my life and I got baptized there at the age of 21 where I’ve been going almost every weekend ever since. I’m a completely different person than I was.
Does the pastor wear skinny jeans?
😂 Well it can be difficult to find God in church, and that's nothing new. Especially when churches elevate human traditions over Truth.
What’s the fascination with skinny jeans?
One thing that repelled me from the Lutheran church in the northwest was the hymns. Start listening to the words of these horrible dirges and realize we're praying for a one world Gov't!??! Started flipping through the hymnals and they're all from 1930s Germany. My experiences went downhill from there.
Christ's kingdom on earth. Not a one world government
@@nerychristian that ain't what was in those hymns even if it was an awful translation...
Just listened to this sermon again, and i dont think Marks words need any explanation. Whoever got all twisted listening to this was surly a softy one of tose men feeling convicted and chose to go against pastor Mark.
Praise the Lord I married a REAL MAN who steps up and leads our family of 8.
Keep it up Pastor MArk.
great historical analysis.
I've been a member of a non denominational, hillbilly church for 30 years. This isn't a problem we have there, thankfully.
The point being made is absolutely 100% accurate, even Paul writes "wives are to be silent in the church and discuss questions at home." ...but blaming this on Hitler and WW2... that is bonkers.
For a Nation of people who literally LOST the war, they sure do get blamed for EVERYTHING. Stop being blame shifting victims, take charge, and turn the world upside down.
It's so different in mosque more like a brotherhood I'm from Scotland my age 71yr I have never found a church where I didn't feel out of place
Shoot, both my grandfathers never went to war---one was a carpenter who worked in a shipbuilding factory and the other was a chemist, both high-ranking factory workers who contributed to the war effort without actually serving in any armed force. I think they probably would've been among the forces pushing back against this transformation.
Very profound and very well stated!
Saying that WWII was the sons of Satan against the sons of God is a gross oversimplification of what actually happened.
Wow, that explains what I've seen and felt!
Wow!
I think another major problem, at least in the US, hypocrisy and being unable to "hurt anyone's feelings."
Couldn’t be more right about this. Explains so much !!! The men at church are so effeminate now, it bothers me. And with no young men in church, how do Christian women find good husbands?
Many times young single men are not welcome in churches because older members are afraid that they will make what they deem inappropriate advances on the younger women.
Why do “young single men” need church the most? Doesn’t the spirit decide and save? Why do we feel we can dictate to God who He needs to church more than another? This line of thinking is very prideful. God saves who God saves. Don’t act like one is more important than another. And don’t act like you know better that the spirit. 🤫 🤫 🤫
Neuteredness is not the way the truth or the life
Great Insight, Pastor Mark!
This was a mistake on my part, but when i was a young, single, man in the military, I went through a cycle everywhere i went: I'd go to a church, nobody would talk to me because they didn't know me. They'd say hi and that would be it. after a few months of that all over town, i gave up.
When I got married, my wife reminded me that it was important to go anyway, so i did. She picked where we went, I volunteered. What you say rings true. Too many modern churches are feminine and downright cowardly, big on window dressing and light on leading and truth.
Now, my wife has fallen away and I'm left not knowing what to do. I never learned to lead in the context of church, I once again get overlooked because I'm not part of the in crowd and I don't do any job in the church... everything is filled up.
I am trying my hardest to get my kids entrenched in the church, but even that is a battle. I am tired, and were it not for the grace of God, I'd have been done a long time ago.
Back at it again.
Also…. The Bible says woman are accountable to their husbands BUT men are accountable to God. So since we’re living in a world that doesn’t want God it’s hardly surprising that men aren’t at church. And since men are now off the rails woman dont have leadership in their men so they go to God
But when a woman is unmarried she goes directly to Christ.
Exactly that’s why there are more woman at church.
The church was emasculated well before WWII, it wasn’t the start.. more the completion of the process
Modern day churches ain't teaching and instructing properly at any age.
They are sugar coating the gospel message of Jesus.
Main priority for the church is to teach instruct and guide in the scriptures. Ephesians 4 ✝️
Question is how do we fix it? Maybe your point is just an excuse men use to not go to church, but lets say they do start taking back the church, what does that look like?
Watch David pawson men of God series thats a start
Dude you're literally a mega church pastor
NO, not the WW1/2, the church was ruined by Luther and Calvin right out of the gate who preached a defeatist gospel to the believers -- hint: wretched man doctrine in Rom 7 -- convincing them to be fallen people who cannot overcome sin. So it was already a crippled church ready to fall at the next storm, then came WW2 just in time to push it past the tipping point. Magically popped up the prosperity preachers overnight like mushrooms after the rain. The rest is history ...
And, God did not let David build the Temple because he was that guy.
This is SO true! And sadly, there's been a deliberate push lately to change doctrine at churches across the country to put women in more leadership roles. Like as deacons, elders, etc. Even in more conservative churches like Churches of Christ!
Driscoll pushes the envelope farther than I would, but he gets the point across regarding women leadership in the church as she embraces compassion (the emotion) rather than a biblical understanding of God's (cold hard) love.
He also reveals the importance of phileo to the "band of brothers" created in the military-which necessarily goes against the agape of "love your enemies." But agape doesn't have more compassion. It simply holds no judgment against others.
So after the war, the band of brothers may join with their former enemies in a round of beer. And if they keep up the agape, they will prevent another war.
But the odds are against them. Except for that damned door. (Gen. 4:7)
And women seem to want more compassion rather than agape.
Agape is alot more dangerous then people think. It could could kneecap ungodly leadership or even better repentance. It is not to be scoffed at. It is the philosophy of what is thought of is the biggest problem. It comes across as the kiss butt mentality.
"God's cold hard love" What Bible are you reading? (Durn those women! Don't they know the difference between compassion and agape.)
@@freedomdude5420 Dangerous indeed. But agape doesn't exist in this world-people are far too opinionated to allow it.
@@RecalledtoLife The love that abandons humanity into "tribulation" (John 16:33) as it tells them to "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) and "hate your mother and father... (Luke 14:26) to be its disciple. That Bible.
@@tedclemens4093 There's nothing "cold" about those passages. Choose your words more carefully next time.
Much like Martin Luther, Pastor Mark nailed it.
I have enjoyed several of his videos, but this is the one that got me to subscribe.
-A Combat Veteran.
Wow. I was an early adopter of all things Mark Driscoll. But yeah…those days are gone.
And yes-it IS offensive to imply that men who lead worship these days (or during WW2) are/were homosexuals. I say that as a former worship leader and musician who led for many years, but who is equally as happy hunting in the deep woods, gutting a deer camping, or rock climbing, as I am singing, or playing a guitar, or even listening to classical music. Or crying when I think about the pain so many suffer in this life. These are not feminine; they are human.
Way to push a middle school stereotype Mark. Grow up, brother. What a disappointment clip.
He's trying to rebuild his "manliness" brand.
The solution is quite simple but controversial…we should just stick with what Paul wrote on his letters, women should not hold authority in the temple in any way shape or form. Leadership of ministry/family is exclusively a role for competent men, if we stick with what scripture says and take women away from leadership roles things should snap into place naturally.
The Church Impotent is a great book!
Thanks to other commenters with better historical data than Pastor here. It's certainly more true that the Feminism of the 60's was more important to the feminization of churches than wartime male absence, but it's not the whole story. The reason Feminism got it's toe hold was that the men who came back from war became awful fathers generally speaking. Those men were my grandfathers and they were not skilled patriarchs by any stretch (at least in my family). The VFW and American Legion were started as drinking clubs for vets who had no idea how to process the horror of their experiences. Most men who had seen combat struggled under PTSD in some form, some mild, others we called 'shell shocked' since we had no real information on it. I suggest that- since we know the most important relationship a child has is with their father, that the broken men who were attempting to re-integrate but couldn't (a very significant demographic percentage) coupled with the complete loss of many others (approx 400k) contributed to a large scale breaking of that paternal bond. This is where, I believe, the self-centeredness of the Boomer generation originates from- trying desperately to get the attention of a father who isn't able to see because of his trauma. Based on living as a child of Boomers and how I saw them and their siblings behaving, this brokenness was the fertile soil that allowed the addiction and self-destructive behaviors that flourished in the 60's to harden into a lifestyle of sin and pleasure seeking. All because their fathers couldn't see their children.
Decernment. Whom are your leaders/rulers? Whom do they really follow? Christ? You join, you fight, you die for theyre cause. Is that cause holy/righteous? Seems hes discussing the aftermath of action. All the wars and lives lost by waring nations just cause. Is it furthering the glory of God. Spreading the moral leadership of Christ? A nations people must protect themselves. The question remains. Do you know whom you fight for?
Go to an Orthodox service or Catholic Latin Mass, their liturgy is pretty masculine and reverent
Wow, that was unexpected. The cause and effect roadmap drawn is a very logical path to how today's church (in the western world) got to where it is. I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time. Excellent points are made in less than 6 minutes. Thanks for being so succinct/concise.
What is the name of the full message? I can't find it.
They gave this charlatan a church? 🤦
Churches don't teach intense, deep bible study. There's no theology and no apologetics. Men need intellectual stimulation and hard facts, not emotions and music.
My husband is an active duty Marine whos been in for over a decade now, and he always seeks out churches that are more military centric or led. And I appreciate it too, because people understand our family and lifestyle. But this makes me sad for my brother in laws who've fallen away because of limp wristed church leadership.
Well said! No one wants to be under leadership that doesn't understand the mission, nor be under leadership that cannot communicate that mission well. We are in a crazy world these days.
"But this makes me sad for my brother in laws who've fallen away because of limp wristed church leadership."
No. They have fallen away because they chose their emotions over the way of obedience. Rather than trusting God to change the church (or themselves -- what a wonder 🙄) and working on being a part of implementing the changes they FEEL should be there, they opted out of eternal life.
That isn't the fault of the church.
That is the result of living in a nation where too many men (including those who are believers) are weak.
So what you can carry a gun!!
What about THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT? What about THE BREASTPLATE of truth? What about all of the armor God has bestowed upon us to fight again TGE REAL ENEMY???!!!
Please! Please! PLEASE! Stop it with the nonsense that any one is at fault but us (as individuals).
Jesus is coming back soon but before He does He's looking for warriors -- not pansies.
How depressing. 😞
God have mercy upon your people. Please open our eyes to see beyond this world.
Military and this walk don't go together. Can't serve two Masters.
Marcus Rodgers is a great pastor too. African american, cool demaner but hard on sin, spits the truth and doesnt sugar coat it. He is just out of the army and is on fire for the Lord
People have fallen away for a myriad of complex social and personal reasons. Mark Driscoll is talking uneducated rubbish and just making things up. If WW2 was the reason for the beginning of the falling away, why was Christianity strongest and most vibrant in the West in the 1950's?
It's a complex interplay beginning in the 1960's that saw the decline of the Christen faith. The Vietnam war,( first war televised), feminism, the rise of contemporary alternative pop culture amongst the youth, abortion and divorce laws rewritten etc.
Mark Driscoll is not qualified to talk on this subject. Or any subject. He runs a for profit "church" that is officially registered as a religious business where he is the sole proprietor. No elders or any accountability above him.
So my advice -ignore him. A man with a known and documented history of abusing and manipulating people.
Churches in the US feel too much like concert halls than actual churches
True. Even the church on the video has the typical look of modern churches.
I think that's in large part due to the popularity of the non-denominational Christian. Seems like their buildings are the typically the ones that look more modern.
Does it really matter how a church "looks?" The building's decor is someone's personal preference. We go to a church to building to worship God even though it might or might not be aesthetically pleasing.
I definitely feel uncomfortable when so many of the songs at a church are about 🎵 "feel the warmth of your embrace" 🎶 Thanks for sharing this very true message.
I bet "love one another" makes you really really uncomfortable too.
I don't feel comfortable with those songs either
Absolutely true. They did the same thing in schools, everything catered to women feelings. Boys are held to girls standards and constantly being efeminized!
One of the reasons why we sacrificed a second income to homeschool our son and daughter.
And the Boy Scouts, which is just Scouts with boys and girls together.
"Like father; like son." Your son is bad because you are bad.
Our education system has become a female centric positive feedback loop.
@@Indylimburg Our education system was designed by John Dewey, MALE.
Nice story, but you're quite a bit off the mark. Plenty of men were left behind to run things. The draft only applied to men between the ages of 18-32. 17 year olds could enlist with parential permission. If you were physically unable (4F), over the age of 32, or worked in a job considered essential to the war effort, you were exempt. The church i grew up in was full of men during that time period, as were all other churches. We're talking about famil men who had children and held responsible positions in town and in the church. The same held true through the Korean war. You always have men who are around and functioning in the churches. You need to get some better information and statistics for your story.
My experience is more like yours than others here. Where I attended for 39 years, there was a mix of young families, empty nesters, extended families, singles (some with kids, most without). Worship was nearly always led by our then male priests, and the consistently excellent music leadership occurred under the direction of both men and women.
Programs served the parish at large; any differentiation was more about age (life experience) than gender, although some small groups customarily tended to have more women or men, but people who cared to serve in such groups were never turned away, at least that I knew about.
I guess “your mileage may vary” applies here.
He pointed that out basically every fit young man shipped out, those who couldn't felt emasculated, those who didn't were considered cowards or weak by their peers. Yes young men remained, but the population of young male leaders took a hit.
Now I think that wasn't to sole reason the church feminized and hollowed out, other social factors probably played a role along with this one, but this is a noted shift in culture it also affected public institutions, business and education. Half the feminist literature is about this very phenomena.
@jaredgilmore3102 I was there and that didn't happen. Plain and simple.
Some places it my have not happened but in the cases of my Grandparents it certainly did, and this does seem to be the general experience of most communities in America.
Please also understand this isn't unique to the 1940s, its a noted psychological and societal phenomenon, that happens after large wars same thing happened in Britain after WWI and in America after the Civil War, the problem is there was no great revival like there was after the civil war to clean things back up. instead were are just following the European model a little more slowly because WWI didn't destroy us like it did Europe and WWII didn't actually kill that many GIs (in comparison to the proportions of the other countries that fought) but the spiritual devastation of that plus Vietnam has got us on the cusp of what already happened to Europe.
Exactly right. Driscoll is light on data heavy on romanticized dreams of "the good ole' days". A far better study on the effect of a demographic imbalance between men and women would be WW1 where a slight advantage to women led to the passing of the 18th Amendment.
Hello from UK… a related point is that the army life (and the mates at the pub, football team, etc) all know EVERYTHING about each other, warts and all, and still accept each other. So often church is a place where you feel you can only show your ‘good’ side….and that is increasingly an irrelevancy.
Please saints pray for me as a single mom of a son who is 4. No father, no males that are good examples for him or me. I want to stay strong and have mighty faith to not faint with all the heavy burdens of day to day life. Turning my back on Jesus is not an option.. I just need a second wind and a deep power to keep on the straight and narrow ❤ may we fight the good fight til the end!
Get that bot into a solid church. Pray, pray, pray.
Done.
@Heseesyou... I'll be praying for that, fellowship, a good church, and deeper intimacy between you and God.
How did you end up a single mum with a kid of 4 to begin with?
@@Vikingr4Jesus5919 Bingo brother...
As a combat vet, raised by a cold war vet with a WW2 Vet grandfather, his uncle was in France in 1918. I have NO idea what he is talking about here. The church my father was raised in and regularly attended by my Pacific war vet grandfather was wall to wall full of WW2 vets. They were all his friends. There were easily over 300 on Sunday. The preacher was thundering true to scripture war vet himself. I was raised many of my summers in their Sunday school classes by these men's wives. The man that gave us all candy was a Paratrooper who made 3 combat jumps and then on his final jump behind enemy line was captured in Normandy. The men who stayed behind were mostly well over 40 to 50 or had vital jobs like specialist technicians in technical fields that were vital to the war effort. What he is talking about is the church from the 1970's and beyond especially the 90's and beyond. When the WW2 generation started to die off in mass. I've been to many churches' growing up with my dad in the military, so we had to move around a lot, and I saw much the same played out over and over. He is off the mark here and his time frame is behind as well.
That angry male who liked using the back of his hand and was a dictatorial head of the household trope is gone thankfully.
Jesus wasn't like that. He was more gentle to people, especially women and children. He didn't roar at them, beat his chest and hit them with straps or sticks. He spoke gently and profoundly, not yelling at people but talking to them.
The alpha toxic male BS of the head of the household being an abusive alcoholic who hits his wife and children and is a cold and unfeeling man is being stamped out thankfully. Those people are bullies and not real men. Real men lead without needing to abuse or hit.
Many men will killing themselves rather than discussing their problems.
Society is better with men softening their hearts and loving their wife and children, rather than terrorising them.
Having come to the conclusion that all wars after WWII were to enhance the coffers of the military-industrial complex, as Eisenhower and Kennedy warned, soldiers have been duped as well as politicians with society just followed along.
Interesting point but it never explains what a manly form of worship looks like. Also, the sports bar/nail salon falls short. There are many women who don’t like to be in a sports bar and there are plenty of strong men who can walk into a nail salon and feel comfortable talking to someone. That is what makes them strong, they can be themselves no matter the setting.
Interesting perspective. I can relate with much of what he is saying. It was something that I suffered from for a very long time, but where I changed, was when I developed a strong direct relationship with the Lord and that satisfied all my needs. Now I deeply love the Lord, no matter what everyone around me is doing.
What? Shop the Pastor Mark Driscoll store? Get a ball cap for $34.99 + tax and shipping? Get your Camping Mug for $16.00 + tax and shipping? Man, oh Man, is this what Christianity has come to?
I think the historigraphy is open to question. About one third of the men of military draft age served in the US military in WW 2. It's not as if all the men vanished in the Rapture. A lot of men were exempt because they worked hard skilled jobs that were essential for war production.
So if you were a fit 22 year old in 1943, the odds were, they'd put you in uniform. If you were 32, with a wife and kids, and a skilled tool & dye maker, you probably stayed out of uniform.
There were plenty of masculine men in civilian life. Churches would not have been emasculated in WW 2.
As a combat vet that come to christ.
I completely agree with this message.
Church's are very effeminate and not very effective before that reason.
You need Pastors calling prayer and fasting.
All night worship and prayer services.
Tell members to pray for the down fall of bad world rulers.
Calling those to repent who are in sin.
You dont get the calling people vipers and table flipping experience in church.
Yep, also thank you for your service, God Bless.
@@BananaR777 thanks brother
Wanna know what's really going on? The devil and dragon remain on Earth (Revelation 12: 12-13). Their judgement is set for 10/12/26. They intend to prove Mankind unfit for God's kingdom with a Worldwide War, and thereby, to absolve themselves of blame. "After all," the devil argues, "Jesus, Himself, tried to teach these beasts to love one another, 1,994 years ago -- almost two full days in Heaven. Surely, the Ancient of Days will judge Man at fault. Or Jesus. Not Me." 2 Peter 3: 8 Matthew 5: 44-48
The devil is delusional -- Daniel 7: 9-14 -- but OVER 93% of men and women are nearly deaf and blind spiritually. They "see" and "hear" nothing -- except perhaps, once or twice in a lifetime, while asleep. We call that, NORMAL. Are you any different? It has always been like this -- as in the Days of Noah.
Come home to the Orthodox Church, then. We do all of that.
You have found a violent, angry Jesus you can identify with. Lots of people do that.
Oh how true, sir! Several years ago, I moved to Dahlonega, GA - which is the home of the University of North Georgia. I hoped to meet a single female professor at First Methodist, which was next to the campus.. Okay, I attend the Sunday morning service. An attractive 30ish bottle-blond lady came up after the service to meet me. She immediately asked me, "Where is your lovely wife?" I first answered, "I'm single" but then since I was in Trumpite-occupied territory, I added that I was divorced . . . so she would know that I was not a homosexual. Didn't help a bit. She immediately responded, "Well, this is a family-oriented church. You would be happier attending church somewhere else." I told her that her statement explained why Jesus did not attend church there. She didn't like that. I didn't care. I later learned that she was an Associate Pastor at First Methodist. Never went back to any church in the Dahlonega area. They all were the same in their delusion that all single men are perverts..
Talk about unwelcoming! I live in Georgia too and I hope you found a Church you can call home.
No I have not. It seems to be a problem throughout North Georgia these days. They think that every single male is either a homosexual or a predator. When living in Roswell, GA I was a member of Roswell United Methodist and very active in its Single Adult program. At that time the church had over 1200 single adults. I felt very welcome there.
I met a lady in Sunday School class at Roswell, who I hoped to marry, but she eventually dumped me, after getting her Masters degree, because she said that architects did not make enough money for her desired lifestyle.@@Murph_gaming
Thank you. I’ve gotten sick of Christian music in octaves well above what most men can sing that sound wimpy & pink. We need women to follow Christ too but cannot forget the men.
They “men” that are worship leaders and singers sing through their noses. No manly singing anymore.
Aren't' these songs written mostly by men.
The problem is that these modern songs are written by people who dress like hipsters and think they are famous singers. I'll take hymns any time over the modern garbage.
@@nerychristian Me, too.
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I was warned not to listen to Mark by close friends and family. Ive heard a few messages and this one just resonates so much with what I couldn't unravel in my head. This really makes sense, and is why I dont go to church anymore.
Not going to church is not an option brother. You need to find a healthy church because without it, you will be dry and will ultimately fall away. After all, it may be that God is calling you to make a difference and if you are sitting at home because you did not see the leadership you want to see, you have fallen into the deception of the devil. Get in fellowship with brothers and sisters in christ and use your gifts and be edified by gifts of others. I hope that you don't take my response in a negative way. At the very least, you position seems to contradict what we are commanded, as christians, in Hebrew 10:25.
Men not going to church is the problem, not the solution.
Thank You Pastor. Reminds me of the perspectives of John Eldredge's "Wild At Heart"🙏🦁🤠
Did a men's retreat a few years ago that used Wild At Heart. It was fantastic.
Read that book and it’s followup 20 years ago when they came out. His description of the modern Jesus being a “Mr. Rogers with a beard” is spot on. Friends and I still laugh at that because it’s so true
As regular as a clock chime, my church preaches from Song of Songs around Valentine’s Day. This preach leans heavily on interpreting the love between a man and a woman from this book as an example of Jesus loving us and the church.
The lyrics to a more recent worship song ‘How how He lives us’ included the lines:
‘So heaven meets earth
Like a sloppy wet kiss and my heart turns violently inside of my chest’
These lyrics have now been changed to ‘unforeseen kiss’ but it’s yet another example of ‘Jesus is my boyfriend and a great dude’ type of songs.
Funny you say that exact example. The song was written because the writer, John Mark McMillan, lost his best friend of decades in a car accident. The song is about how even when life is kicking us while we're down, God's love is real. And that line in particular, is about how it's like when you get a messy, sloppy wet kiss from your kid. It's gross, a mess, and not how a kiss is supposed to be, but you are still filled with absolute joy from it.
This sermon mentions David, the warrior king, who was also a poet, a musician, and felt deep bonds with his friends, and felt incredible grief when they died. We as men are supposed to be well rounded like this, able to feel intensely, while still keeping to our duties as men.
And yes, we're supposed to feel love and affection toward and from God.
One big reason I went Orthodox ☦
when i was growing up i went to churches every sunday with my family. i never felt like i fit in. i believed and still believe in god. i read the bible. but i stopped going because i didn’t like anything about church. it felt demoralizing walking into the building and seeing overweight or feminine men prancing around preaching and telling me how to be a good man. this video made it click
I am genuinely curious: Has Mark ever served in the military? Or in a police force? Or a firefighter? Or any job where he as put himself in harms way? Is he "good a killing people" like David? Has he ever had a job that was "manly". Can he forge iron, drive nails, frack for oil, build skyscrapers? Or is his sole qualification to manliness that he has a raspy voice and wears ball caps and Carharts to church? He reminds me of politicians who send their staff to Tractor Supply to pick up some "manly clothes" so they can wear them on the campaign trail while they talk about the plumbers and electricians who "make the country work."
His voice isn't raspy in my opinion...it isn't even very manly...it's quite high for a man of his build if you ask me.
Good grief, a guy doesn't have to be a John Wayne or a Jack Reacher to be a man.
If a guy who has never driven a nail or built big buildings is brave enough to teach high school kids how to prepare themselves for the world, I'd say he's manly. You need resolve and self confidence to get in front of a group and believe you are wise enough to educate them.
How about semi drivers? They have a difficult job, negotiating traffic and careless drivers, and sometimes they encounter horrendous storms.
He has always an obsession with men this woman that and sex. A LOT of ministers don't like him becuase he takes the bible and contorts it into a crass sexualized book. This guy has a real problem and I see he is back at it again.
Exactly. The guy is delusional . He talks about his voice and refers to himself as some kind of image of masculinity. what a joke.
You said exactly what I was thinking. I get what he's saying, and there's certainly some truth, but I also felt some arrogance there. It really doesn't matter what pitch a man's voice is or what clothes he wears. What matters is that he fears the Lord and lives out his faith. Ideally we have men of all types in our church, involved at all levels. Who wants a bunch of lookalikes?
Even Paul, the man we are told to imitate as he imitated Christ (1 Corinth. 11:1), describes himself as "timid":
2 Corinthians 10:1
By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you-I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away!
Not that I'm suggesting he actually was timid (2 Tim. 1:7), but the point is that he wasn't exactly the kind of "manly man" described in this video. But he certainly was a man of God.
It never fails, every week on the weekly announcements my church has some womens group or event. They never do anything for men below 55. My church is more old school then most, so i cant even imagine modern church
Shouldn't having a men's group or event be the responsibility of the MEN?
@@RecalledtoLife the men cater to the women. Thats the whole point of the video. Church is feminized and female focused
@@RecalledtoLife Yeah, why don't you petition for a men's group at church, and offer to run and organise it?
Better to just complain about things than lift a finger to change them, I guess?
@@dhenderson1810 Did you mean to address your remarks to me or ccrow3355?
@@RecalledtoLife To the original poster who blames women that nothing is done for men's ministries.
I agreed with the replies, including you.
No. I respectfully disagree. The problem is that westernized Christianity has made everything about the church, rather than Christ. We are church-people, but not disciples, i.e. those who trust Him enough to leave everything behind, learn to become like Him and how to live to please Him, and while totally depending on Him for everything. The effect of WWII is a consequence of our failure to be and produce disciples. Jesus, however, offers all of us the opportunity to start over just as He did with Peter. His question to Peter (John 21:15) says it all. If you're looking for truth, start with the Gospel of John, not a celebrity preacher.
I think there's some truth to what he's saying. I also think it serves as a lame excuse. Assuming that all Christian men who didn't serve in the military are effeminate is an example of arrogant pride that has kept some veterans out of church.
Considering the Hell some of these veterans went through in combat, they ought to want to attend church out of gratitude to God.
Nope what he saying is absolutely true watch David pawson men of God series
@@unforkyours3lf730 No. Mark Driscoll has merely pulled something out of the air for tube content and growing his "manliness" brand. If some so-called "Christian" WWII vets came back and "went out from us" it was because "they were not of us." Not because somehow Rosie the Riveter was running the church.
I had this revelation pretty much on my own months ago. It finally - and I emphasize FINALLY - is starting to make sense why I just don't bother with church anymore.
My question now is...wtf is next? Point to me a church that is properly teaching guys how to be a man.
This is the crux of the issue imo, modern churches think they are teaching God's grace by overlooking and never talking about sin, but they are actually showing they don't believe his grace is sufficient for our sin. That if the church brought awareness to our sin, we would all run away in terror rather than taking the lesson aiming higher and trusting that as we do so God's grace is sufficient.
Then I would suggest learning more about The Eastern Orthodox Church. They have spent the last 2000 years preserving the teachings and practices of ancient Christianity, and as such are very traditional.
@@KalebOfAxum12yes keyword is traditional. Yall rely are your traditions instead of the bible. You are just as bad as feminized churches.
Find a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in your area.
Because you don't want to go anymore, and are looking for an excuse to justify it.
I like Mark, I really do, but this theory of his is just historically illiterate. The thing that messed with the American church the very most was the cultural upheaval of the sexual revolution of the 1960’s and its impact on the boomer generation over the next several decades. The modern evangelical church characteristic that Mark singles out for criticism - skinny jeans, effeminate male worship leaders, women occupying most church offices - didn’t occur for at least 50 years after WWII, so he’s missing a huge swath of time between those epochs in the American church. I agree that we have a crisis of masculinity in not only the church, but in the West in general. Mark is just uninformed as to the true causes of the crisis. To get to the root of things, you have to look at the sexual revolution, women’s emancipation and entering the work force (which led directly to the dissolution of the family unit), the secularization of American life that began with public schools, rampant consumerism that sprung up in the 1980s as a reaction to the new cultural disintegration of America, and much, much more. These problems have been brewing for a long time.
As a woman who never fit the typical feminine stereotype, and who believes God calls us as individuals, I also don't feel like I have much place in the modern church. It's in this place between woke, mamby pamby, but also still thinks women have no place in leadership and service! I would be happier out building houses with the boys than in a big feelings circle. I am happier to hear the hard news than the feel good gospels. We need more correction and structure, and to stop talking so much and go out and do!
And yes, I also went military. Even as soft as it is now, it left an impression!
The biggest problem with modern churches is that they are predictable. Everyone is just going through a routine. The only ones doing anything are the preachers and musicians. The rest of us are just spectators watching them perform. So it never really feels like we are doing anything meaningful. If you tell them that you want to serve, at best they might let you be an usher or take care of kids. The first century church consisted of home meetings. People weren't putting on a performance. Their main focus was evangelism. Today's pastors are salaried. They have no incentive to train a new generation of pastors. A church that is not evangelizing and growing rapidly, is a dead church
@@nerychristian amen. I'm screenshotting this because it is so true. Bring back the old church!
@@ItsJustAdrean Find a friend or coworker who is a Christian, and invite them to your house for a bible study. And make it your goal to bring a new person every week.
The main issue was (and is) the lack of great Biblical preaching. Many churches turned liberal and abandoned faithfulness to the word of God.
Thank you Mark. My 13yo son watched this video with me just now.
Thank you for your message. Men today must stand up for masculine values and behavior 👍🏽🇮🇱🇺🇸
Why did you put the Israel flag before the American flag?
@Austrian_Artist0069 the actions, or lack of actions, of weak men
@Austrian_Artist0069 I don't disagree but every man's first enemy is himself. Until you defeat the enemy within, you won't be able to defeat those who aren't.
Because he saved the best for last.
@@datassassin9643They worship a Remphan.
Way over simplified! Painting with a broad brush. Sorry. I can't buy into this.
Absolutely what I’ve felt about church. It’s so feminine it’s not for warriors or strong males.
Nor for women who are strong warriors for Christ either, i tend to offend everyone just by being truthful.
While the description of the modern church is somewhat accurate, this has absolutely nothing to do with war or the military. Pretty weird theory.
I was a lead usher and had to deal with a young, wishy washy music pastor who kept lowering the lights during worship. It caused issues with people trying to get seated. His ridiculous response was that keeping the lights brighter, affected the effects. That’s what the church has become!
I hate the lowering of the lights too. But why are people arriving late to the worship service?
Those music leaders think they are putting on a show. I miss the old days of just piano and hymns.
True, but a little simplistic. And I have always a small problem with americans talking about "what the war did" to whatever...If you would only live in Europe for one year(!), you would probably never again say anything about what the war did...! The church in Europe never had real revival since pietism and that is over 200 years ago. Talking about men in church? They went away a long time ago, but not only because "of the war" and the things that Mark tries to explain here, but also for a lot of other modern reasons, of which probably the biggest is the urge to gain money and provide a good life for the family - how about that one in the US?
Looking back as a teen, I'd have to say that though the leadership was nice, they were definitely soy boys and I was a lord of the flies type of child. Found my dicipline and strength in military service. Wish I had more of it while growing up.
As a man, an Army vet, and a former NCO I have to say this may be true for many veteran's preferences, but this is not what the church is called to be. Changing the church to appeal to aggressive masculinity is not going to fix this problem. If you apply American veteran's standards of masculinity, you may find that Jesus himself did not meet some of those standards. Jesus appeals to and emotionally connected with women and children. He was also masculine in many ways, but we need to conform to Jesus, not transform the church to appeal to any one demographic.
I agree with this to some extent. Christ cslled us to have hearts like children or else the Kingdom of Heaven will be denied to us
“Satan’s sons vs God’s sons”
Remind me which side stamped their soldiers belt buckles with the phrase “God With Us” and which side fought under the banner of a pentagram and the hammer & sickle.
exactly, the west did this to themselves, the reds were the real enemy, germans were never the enemy, history is a lie.
Belt buckles with "Gott Mitt Uns" while they herded Jews into boxcars . . .
Not sticking up for the Commies, mind you, but people can say anything and not really mean what they say.
Female pastor at my church always get emotional, starts crying out of nowhere, and most songs are about "i love you jesus" but like songs dedicated to a boyfriend
So you would prefer them back in the kitchen, where you think they belong?
Your first problem is attending a church that ordains women as Pastors. Pastors are supposed to be men.
@@haveagoodone2935 current pastor husband died like 2 years ago.
@@haveagoodone2935 no need for pastors male or female.
Messiah never intended for us to have pastors at all.
Good take. The charismatic movement is especially guilty of exuding feminine energy. I think Protestants in general will have to return to older ways. If not, most Christian men will either leave the faith or convert to Orthodoxy.
I live in Portland Oregon and there are a lot of churches here where I have observed that exact thing. Makes me grateful for the upbringing I had where I learned how to hunt, use power tools, and operate a firearm. Not to mention, my lady is glad I know how to do all those things too!
Also from Portland Oregon and I’ve observed the very same thing. Sadly my old church fell victim of too, hard to find anyplace here that’s not been corrupted/influenced by an agenda to some degree.
From Grants Pass and our "seminaries" in this state have failed us.
Having visited Portland, OR it wouldn't surprise me if churches have followed the world (since this is sadly the norm with the U.S.) And the world in Portland is very...umm disorderly, chaotic, and effeminate.
Stay safe out there bros. Portland has definitely gone downhill, and it's sad.
I’d really like to see some hard data on this. A lot of assertions and theories here, but I’m skeptical. 🤨
During WWII, churches by and large were not led by women. They were led by men. And not old men necessarily, either; just older (or “elder?” ;) -the draft was only up to 45 yrs old-Mark Driscoll himself is 53 yrs old). There’s nothing inappropriate or unbiblical about that kind of leadership.
BTW, the average age of enlisted soldiers was 26, and many volunteer soldiers lied about being 18 when they were younger than that. If the war had never happened, would it even be right for older men to step aside and put these boys in leadership?
If so, if youth is the ideal, why is Mark still the lead pastor of his church? Like I said, he’s 53 yrs old. If he’s consistent, he should step aside and let a younger man do his job.
And it was not '9%', more like 25%. This guy doesn't understsnd stats😅. A huge portion of the population went to war, most young men were drafted during this time. Most likely a perfentage highrr than 25%. It was a rigorous time, indeed with a lot of bloodshed.
Driscoll’s argument here is, in its most general form, that the church should conform to the pattern of the world, in contrast to Romans 12:2 “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Driscoll seems to be saying that the church should go out of its way to be welcoming to worldly men, by not being too feminine, however the local culture defines masculinity and femininity.
Men who have the Holy Spirit will seek out fellowship with other believers. Those who don’t can only corrupt the church anyway. And we should conform to the example set by Christ, not cultural standards.
Exactly, follow the trachings of Christ and not worldly men.
I am 100% behind this fellas ideas, as we are deficient in good male role models. But this correlation w/ WW2, and wars in general, isnonsense...absolutely NO research backing that up. "by AM Burdette · 2009 · Cited by 31 - We find that those young men classified as “highly religious evangelical” are more likely to join the military."
Great stuff- Doug Wilson and CREC have been pushing this for years. Praise the Lord for more of it.
And amen for them and their efforts too! I’m glad to see this stuff finally, at the critical moment, by the grace of God, finally catching on.
Another Doughite
@@thomasthellamas9886 just obeying Hebrews 13:7, drawing attention to their faith and influence on Mark's, and rejoicing in 1 Corinthians 3:4-11.
At the end of the day, Jesus is being preached in a way that offends effeminacy and idolatry- both of which are sins that plague us, with the Gospel of a masculine Christ who saves us men and women to be his family.
@@georgeluke6382 Love to see it brother
I go to Rev. Steve Wilkins’ church so I know exactly what your talking about. On that note, what this youtube clip is talking about can actually be traced a little farther back than WW2 all the way to the War Between The States
@0:21 Yeah that who needs to hear it not the "my body my choice" and the 80% of all divorce initiators women.
It wasn't WW2, we'd fought wars since the start of Christendom nearly without issue.
It's the Boomers making church all about singing "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs and only sticking to the "Love" portion of God. I hated going back then myself because if you didn't want to do all the stuff in "I can only imagine" which sounds fine as a woman singing it and REALLY gay as a man singing it to Jesus, then somehow you were a bad christian.
Meanwhile you watch older media, older songs, etc God is very macho, it's not gay, and as a man you don't get an oogie feeling singing it. I'm not surprised they had so much trouble now, the churches sided with feminists over God and now they gays are kicking your doors down.
I’m a 62 year young lady, and I firmly believe women have a wonderful responsibility as members of church of Christ, I truly believe God wants men to lead, as long as they’re doing it 100% according to God’s Will and Blessings!!!
Sadly I’ve been in a church run by men and it was and still is very poorly run..I don’t go there anymore and it’s sad because some of the people are my dear friends and family… but I didn’t feel God’s Presence there anymore…
Quite frankly I’ve never seen a country with Jesus so much in their mouth while acting exactly the opposite of His teachings. Do you wanna serve the Lord? Perfect: don’t take guns round the world, stay in the US. That would help America and the whole world become a far more peaceful place. Bless you all
Ive been thinking about this exact scenario for about 2 decades now...this is the first time Ive heard someone talk about it so thank you for that.
David pawson also talks about it in his men of God series
@@unforkyours3lf730 nice! Ill have to check that out. Thanks for the heads up!
But there are always wars and have been since Jesus. So what’s suddenly changed?
@@Jack-yf1ss gtf off my thread
@@Jack-yf1ssThe wars last longer and are much further in distance- essentially moving to another country away from family. In past centuries, armies would meet for a day, nearby, and quickly hack each other to pieces. I'm exaggerating, but we have a far reaching cultural revolution 1967-1972, as well as leaving behind physical labor on family owned farms. The changes since ww1 started are profound.
I don't think any of this is true, it's all speculation
Conspicuous lack of proof to go with that pastor’s poor take.
hey, bro, hold up. There's young single men at the Orthodox Church. We crave order and structure, surprising, isn't it?
Send us young single women so we can start families. Thanks!