Jim Cornette on Why Vince McMahon Isn't A "Flair Guy"
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2021
- From Episode 203 of Jim Cornette's Drive Thru
Artwork by Travis Heckel!
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If Flair had a gimmick where he was an astronaut or maybe a chef, he would love it
I guess his gimmick as Nature Boy and a member of the Four Horsemen wasn’t enough 😂
@@selfishstockton6123 if he had actually been a Horse-man, Vince would have pushed him to the moon
Early start at work and that comment really made me chuckle, cheers man 😆
@@ShredderSensei Nah, Vince would've had Hogan run through the Horsemen like he did every other faction around that time.
I would say porn star because he likes taking women to Space Mountain
Oh, that's a horrific image. Flair was the antithesis of Vince's style of wrestling. Flair was a wrestler. He talked the talk, but he backed it up in the ring.
And Vince had nothing to do with ric becoming a star and wasn’t a giant. You right the antithesis of vinces ideas which were hulk hogan and the ultimate warrior.
Hulk Hogan (AWA, WWF) vs. Ric Flair (NWA, WCW) - this WAS the 1980's Dream Match (that should have been a WrestleMania Main Event, if not on WCW's Starcade). WWF also had the (Ultimate) Warrior, "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Davey Boy Smith (Sr.) and Curt Hennig/"Mr. Perfect." WCW also had Sting, Goldberg, Arn Anderson, Chris Jericho and Lex Luger. In the 2010's, John Cena was the WWE's Franchise player); A.J. Styles was TNA Impact Wrestling's main company man; ROH: CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Daniel Bryan.
He isn't soft, he's a man's man (this is what Mark 'Undertaker' meant!)
Past tense though. 90s WCW run and on was brutal.
I never liked Ric Flair either. He never seemed to me that he was tough, just obnoxious.
Considering Ric worked most of his career for the opposition I think Vince has been rather generous.
That WrestleMania 24 send-off was epic.
Too bad it was not enough for Ric.
ric needs $$$ thats what it comes down to at end of day
Huge difference between Bret and Neitch. Bret became The Hitman IN the WWF, while Flair already was the Nature Boy once he got there. He earned his reputation in the NWA, not the WWF. Plus, Bret is Canadian, not a product of southern wrestling
Technically Flair is from Minnesota
@@DMS-pq8 yes, he is. But his wrestling style is from the South
Yeah I think when Flair came in he was in WCW or the NWA previously and was already over there. Bret while already having the wrestling mind and the worker trait grew his gimmick more and more in the WWF and basically earned the respect of the WWF fans. Not saying Flair didn't earn anything but more so if you were a WWF fan, you saw Bret grow in this company and suddenly he becomes champion I think a story like that would stand out more than having someone come in who is already on top but you never witnessed the journey.
Bret is also much better wrestler than Flair ever was
@@hermonymusofsparta couldn’t agree more
I think the biggest thing about Flair is his build. Everyone knows what Vince looks for in his wrestlers, I'm sure Vince never liked the optics of Flair as a heel going toe to toe with guys like Hulk and Warrior. But as a character, i think Vince does enjoy Flair, I think Vince probably thinks Flairs best role, is the role he had with Evolution, more of a manager
Vince would have loved Flair before the plane crash. When Flair first got into the business he was built like a brick house but then the plane crash happened and Flair slimmed down and changed his style.
@ShadowAngel Backlund was an established holdover from his fathers tenure, and Hogan wasn't in the company yet. I think Vince's track record is pretty clear, he clearly likes the big dudes, and at least for you to be in pretty good shape like Bret or HBK
@@Tony-fq5bn Clearly? What about Macho Man? You don't think Flair was in shape???? The dude was in great shape. The myth that Vince only liked dudes the size of Hogan and Warrior is an excuse.
@@waxoftriple9 Flair was not in great shape when he got to the WWF, maybe great shape for the average 43 year old man, but not in great shape for a WWF wrestler, like seriously, when Flair got to WWF they still had Hogan, Warrior, they had Sid, Flair looked like a grandpa all through the 90's .
Vince obviously doesn't only like big guys, but the big guys have always gotten the biggest, fastest pushes with Vince. If Flair had been there in the 80's who knows maybe he would've gotten a Macho Man/Ted Dibiase type of push, but he was never gonna get a Hogan Warrior type run.
Lol, i even said in the first comment, I do think Vince likes Flair, just not as the top guy in the company
@ShadowAngel rumor is he wanted to put the title on Jimmy Snuka but Snuka got in trouble. Who else was there?
Also I think Vince was putting the pieces in place so the hero comes as a fresh novelty right when he was going national. Some say the WWF was struggling with Backlund as champ but they were still drawing crowds and all. So he waited until his guy (Hogan) and the national coverage were in place.
Vince never made Flair, just like he never made Dusty, Harley Race, and Jack Brisco, so it's not a surprise Vince was never a Flair fan because he was never a southern wrasslin guy. Which is fine. It's his company.
There's a reason why Vince ain't a flair guy and that's because he was a Buddy Rodgers guy. Flair took his gimmick and Harley races ring style. Nothing original about flair.
Southern Wrasslin will always be the best!
Well he was enough of a fan to give him the belt twice. Ric has said before that this was the lowest point of his career confidence wise.
@Aaron Lassiter Yeah he also pushed JYD and Savage who where both as southern fried as it gets 😂
@@patale1640 and Austin, who even has the accent to match.
I think Vince likes Flair as a person and can respect the success Flair has but as a wrestler, and this applies to Bret as well, Vince only respects them for what they can do for his business right now. That's why it was a big deal with Flair jumped, it made an immediate impact, but a year later it wasn't a big deal so he let him go. It isn't his style of wrestling so he doesn't care beyond the immediate gain.
That’s exactly what Corny said
Can’t add Bret in there. It has been confirmed that Bret was at one time Vince McMahon’s favorite wrestler.
Aaaww did you even listen or did you just feel liking typing example what Corny Said in the clip?
@@caarrll7117 LOL Yup. This sounded more like a summary than an opinion.
@@1776Sledge That's what confusing about this whole thing! Vince Mcmahon knows how Pro Wrestling is supposed to be *"Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels"* but he still choose to do corny crap..
"Who are you? To tell me how to wrestle. I'm Ric Flair." - Ric Flair
"He's having a stroke!"
"I've spent more money on spilled liquor in my lap, than you have ever seen in one month..."
That was one the most savage lines, I've ever heard him speak.
@@Blaklyon0 When did he say that? That is really harsh!
@@foleynj86 it was on a nwa promo from, back in the late 80's.
Love it
Vince loves the weight room, so he has always loved the bodybuilding wrestlers. And they're great for mainstream audiences because massive guys LOOK like they can win almost any fight, even if they can't. And if they can look huge AND cut a promo like Hogan could, man, they were gold.
Hogans best promos were in WCW
Yet Vince has given Flair hundreds of thousands of dollars during his multiple divorces and lawsuits and pushed his daughter to the moon, and Flair has done multiple interviews how Vince and him are good friends now. Loves him as a friend just not a wrestler I guess.
Flair told the story about Vince loaning him some money back in 1991 because he had a tax lien on him. Flair paid the money back with his WM24 check YEARS later
Vince's father was on the Board of Directors that voted Ric NWA Champ
@@CraigSmithII between 1995 and 1999 Flair made less than $2 million dollars. Hell, in 98 Flair made like $21k from wrestling pay outs.
Vince isn't a fan of wrestling. Makes sense
@@greghughes6098 Yep. He prefers male underwear models.
That's Easy! difference in Styles.. Vince McMahon even though he is from the South is a East Coast man that has different principles in Pro Wrestling (Nothing wrong with that) While Ric Flair is a Southern Man who always does the Southern Way of Pro Wrestling (Nothing Wrong with that either)
Both Guys have different styles and that's okay.. Pro Wrestling is supposed to have differences as long as everybody make it look good and respects it..
@Aaron Lassiter And he was trained by Verne Gagne.
On another note, Hulk Hogan started in Southern NWA.
These twists always happen, but the cult of Southerners who fervently supported the Dirtiest Midwesterner in the Game and still do is pretty impressive, leaving aside that the particular member of it who's speaking in the video is stuck in 1986.
Flair is definitely from Minnesota. Maybe resided in NC for many years but his roots are up North.
*Nothing wrong with that*
@@6ANUR34DT81S I couldn't agree more..
Jim makes a great point,Vince and wwe has never been about wrestling as much as entertainment. In the attitude era you didn’t really have great matches as much as promos and entertainment. Wwe will never be that way as long as Vince was there so it’s pointless of thinking wwe will be like NXT.
But that is why pro wrestling became a massive success and isn't looked back at like the roller derby or the 3 ring circus. Vince did become the walt disney of live entertainment.
What are the differences of styles between Nxt and WWE really ?
There's none. Same thing... just different camera work
@Aaron Lassiter in a sense but Vince Cares a lot more about the entertainment part than the in ring.
@@fishin4bass2002 really who would watch fake wrestling when people already think real wrestling is born without a story you're just watching useless fake fights Vince do needs to do better with wrestling because that's how WCW passed WWE in the mid 90s
@@KEPA000 I agree. But Vince likes the gimmicks and likes the family friendly environment. I mean he is right that kids will make him money. If you watch wwe over the years it has always been like it is now. Only in the attitude era did it become more adult oriented but it slowly went back and we have what we see now. The in ring has never been that great. You think guys like Hogan, Cena and others only have a few moves until you see them in NJPW or are allowed a match to go all out and you see that they can do a lot more in the ring but the wwe style doesn’t allow it. Look at cena vs Cesaro, cena can do more than a few moves if you let him.
Cause he didn't create him. Duh.
And he represents “wrasslin” (professional wrestling) as opposed to Entertainment.
He didn't create Hogan either. Duh.
People say Flair had the same match over and over, I wish we could watch him in his prime now over and over. Imagine a 35 year old Flair in Wwe today?
I wonder if they realize that Hogan had the same match over and over?
@@rond7659 exactly!!
A bunch of chops, lots of stalling, caught on the top rope for the deadly drive, running knee drop,
some Wooo's, a shin breaker, the beg for mercy with the poke to the eyes and a figue four zzzzzzzzzz
@@BrentSexy you could say that about every wrestler. They all have their "shit" and they all want to get it in.
Yep same match over and over, five star athleticism for hours on end night after night to packed arenas. WOOOOOOOOO!
While most NWA old guards wouldn't be McMahon favourites, I don't think anybody could say that Ric wasn't pushed hard during his first run - even Vince wouldn't have tried to repackage Flair. Heenan and Mr. Perfect were ideal heel accomplices as well. His role during the 2000s suited him perfectly at that stage in his career: mentor to the main eventers of the new era.
Facts.... Vince McMahon took care of Ric too. Very well I might add. Especially recently.
And that's not to mention the large amount of money that Vince "loaned" Ric. Ric paid that back with his Wrestlemania 24 money. So even if Vince isn't the biggest fan of Ric Flair as a wrestler, he seems to have deep respect for Ric Flair the man.
Did Ric Flair pin anybody during his first run aside from the jobbers
@@chrischar9428 I don't know if you watched wrestling at the time, but most of the matches were jobber matches, to establish all the on-roster talent as stars. It was rare to see wrestler vs wrestler matches between main event talent, and even rarer for those matches to have a real finish with the heel winning. Ric Flair having a submission rather than pinfall finisher makes a pinfall win even less likely - so there won't have been many. That said, he did pin Macho Man for the title. And he also scored pinfall wins over Shawn Michaels and Sgt Slaughter.
@@codysnecktattoo3340 I dont know if you watched wrestling back then but there is something called house shows. These are the traveling live cards not recorded and not monthly ppv. Flair rarely won. Now you can argue all you want about flair being a heel and hes supposed to lose. He needs to cheat to win some and he needs clean wins too. And not just Jim Powers and jim brunzell.
Love him or hate him...Ric flair is and was the best of the best
That's not fair to Flair
Compared to other top NWA guys who came to the WWF in the 80s and early 90s like Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, and Terry Funk. Ric Flair was treated very well. He won a Royal Rumble, main evented a Wrestlemania, and held the WWF title twice.
Vince had no input in the creation of the Nature Boy. The END.
Well considering Ric Flair borrowed from a couple other wrestlers he didn't really create his gimmick either
I disagree. Vince has given Flair so much money past his prime. Also Vince has given Flair money on a friendly level to when Flair was going through nasty divorces
Jim isn’t disagreeing with what you said, Jim literally said “Vince likes and respects flair as a person” he was talking about his wrestling style. It’s no secret Vince never liked flairs wrestling style, hence why most of flairs career was spent outside of the wwe.
@@Iambetterthanyouanduknowit Vince McMahon doesn't like chicken shite heels, the ones that always escape by the skin of their teeth. He's always been more of a monster heel fan like Andre.
@@Jukeboxster you’re definitely not wrong lol, but flair was great as a heel and baby face. But go look at terry funk vs ric flair I quit match in 1986 and then go watch any wwf match from 1986, it’s completely night and day. One is a brutal violent match with realism and doesn’t go too far over the top, then you got people purposely running into hogans foot off the ropes LOL
Thats all personal and doesn't reflect how he viewed Ric professionally. Without a steroid scandal Bret Hart likely would never have been elevated. First chance they went to Diesel until they saw he didn't have opponents besides Shawn and Bret. Vince likes Hogan and larger than life yet simple matches. It just doesn't fly anymore. Yet Austin and Rock weren't Bret and Shawn. Yet they drew the record business. The business like politics is a balancing act and the shows need a bit of every style. It's part of what is lacking today. Which is partly why the business is not nearly as popular. Non fans knew Austin and Rock. Non fans don't know the current talent but know WWE. That is and has been the real goal. WWE is the star not its talent.
@@Jukeboxster Ironic, considering the Mr McMahon character is a chicken shite heel.
I struggle to take anyone seriously when they say "Flair tried to make it real". Flair was the person who made me realize it was fake as a kid back in the 80s with his goofy ass cartoon faceplant flops and his ridiculous flips he would always do when being thrown into the turnbuckle.
His style of selling was so ridiculously fake it looked like it was out of a Three Stooges skit.
Damn hahahahahaha so true
Totally agree.
And this will cause some heads to explode, but when I was young, the person who was "too phony" and made it clear it's 100% a work for me was Ricky Steamboat. Watch his selling. Either he was smashed out of his mind on something, or he was doing Slapstick Wrestling.
I love Flair, but I can't entirely disagree with this. 😅
If you were hyper focused enough to pick that up that early, then you were already delusional. Wrestling stopped looking like a “real fight” in the 70’s. A freaking Irish whip was hokey if you wanna break it down. A guy grabs your arms and pulls you toward the ropes… and you run 15 feet without even TRYING to stop? Isn’t this supposed to be a real fight and struggle between 2 opponents?
If Ric Flair popped the bubble for you and ruined kayfabe, then you were already a mark to begin with.
Another thing is Flair loves a good old fashion headlock match which for that time sure whatever but his matches just don’t age well compared to like a Stan Hansen or Mr Perfect guys that went all out in their matches…Flair had a lot of slow paced prehistoric matches that are just awful to watch now I’m sorry
Vince certainly had deep respect for Flair. He gave him an amazing send off in 2011. He even went to the ring and hugged him. The WWE dedicated an entire RAW to Flair’s first retirement.
Flair was a heel. . NY was a babyface territory ultimately unless you were mammoth big guy.. He had a good run for Vince. Wasn't great but he was also in his 40s/50s.
Thats right Vince was always all about entertainment, cartoon characters, male soap operas thats why Im shocked he allowed NXT to happen which is none of that and is just some indie wrasslin type of stuff and it explains why he buries those guys when they get to the main roster. NXT existing is just a favor to his son in law. Nothing more than that. Deep down he hates it and doesnt understand it.
The old WWF days at least had characters you can get behind. WWE SUCKS today. Give me Bret, Savage, Jake the Snake, Taker anyday
@@chadk890 don't forget Hogan ultimate warrior Shawn Michaels Chris Benoit Sable
Vince's ideas were great for the 80's. Monday Night Wars forced him to change...then he reverted back to that cartoon crap. I've had enough...AEW AEW AEW and yes that is coming from a FORMER member of the WWE universe. Many of us AEW fans were WWE fans at one time. Sick of the Disney crap. We are the 18-49 male demographic....We loved ECW, WWF Attitude and the Monday Night Wars. Sick of Bailey and Booty O's... pure stupidity
@@tonyvolley6365 yea true new day is silly but aew doesn’t have any silly stuff 😂😂 new day still one of the best tag teams, their gimmick is for children dude, we were all children at one point and we all loved the cena’s / hogan’s back then, nothing wrong w that, new day is still hella talented inring, and brought us some of the best tag team matches of alltime.
@@dimndcristo not really.
Destr-Woooooo-city!!!
Vince’s perspective is this: Flair’s style and the WWF as a television company are like oil and water.
It worked that Flair got the belt twice in 1992
As an NWA fan, who didn't absolutely LOVE Flairs first WWF run? The lead in as the real worlds Champion with the Belt in hand alongside Henig and Heenan, and those great promos completely out of character for the WWF. And when Flair won the 1992 Royal Rumble, everybody who was at my house (all smart and aware with Flairs struggles at WCW) watching it literally jumped for joy. It was redemption, validation that Flair was the best in the business eben in his 40's and he that could walk into New York and rise to the top. So for Vince to pin the belt on Flair was a pretty big deal. He liked, flair, respected him, understood he could draw, gave him a fantastic run and give the fans many a great 'match of the year' events not seen in the WWF. Flair could return to the WCW with his confidence and his prestige restored that lasted util the end of WCW. Great times, one of the great moments in wrestling.
Awesome Shoot Today Jim!!😎🐐🐐
I find the idea that "Flair is the antithesis of Hulk Hogan" to be somewhat strange. Go back and watch Flair in his heyday and the unavoidable conclusion is: he's a character - just like Hogan. Granted Flair could be a better technician than Hogan, but everything from the Woooo (in place of the cupped ear) to the 'Flair flop', are the hallmarks of a character rather than a 'real' person. Yes, OK, both were Ric and Hulk were exaggerations of reality, but you can't critique Hogan for being a character and give Ric a free pass. This is why Flair was a top guy (world champion) in WWF and Ricky Steamboat - as good a technician but less of a character - wasn't.
Actually Steamboat was penciled in for a push to win the WWF title some time after he won the ic title at mania , but he wanted time off to spend with his newborn kid , and management never pulled the trigger and they never tried to again.
@@bartholomew8042 If Steamboat was penciled in to win the WWF title at the height of Hulkamania, then who ever made that choice needed to be penciled in to a mental hospital. If people think Bret & HBK were terrible drawing champions, my god would they be in for a shock if that shitshow had happened. Steamboat was just the NWA/WCW Tito Santana.
@@bartholomew8042 I'm familiar with that nugget of history. But the fact they never tried again or pushed Ricky further to begin with (or Rick Rude, Jake Roberts or Piper et al), just re-enforces the point that you had to be a character a la Flair to get the maximum push. The only example of a non-character being WWE/F champion I can think of is Benoit, and the exception proves the rule.
@@malenko316 Piper could’ve been champion too but Hogan would’ve wanted the title back and Piper didn’t want to lose his heat and he didn’t trust Hogan.
Im almost starting to think Hogan isn't portraying a character anymore, i think he really believes everything about himself lol.
Love cornette could listen to him all day.
He knows his wrasslin!
Same
I knew all of this already... 'cause I've been listening to Jim for years and learned a lot about the wrestling business. I'd have answered the same way about Flair not being McMahon's type of wrestler and how he preferred cartoonish, overbulked characters to actual wrestlers. That I didn't really learn anything new today means I've paid attention and learned a lot in previous episodes! Thanks for all you do, Jim!
Hogan vs Flair in WCW was long before Hall and Nash were there.
😵💫
Ric flair: perpetuator of the single greatest recurring match for 50 years.
Vince definitely helped Flair post WCW because Bischoff destroyed Flair's life.
Met Stephen P New tonight at a great house show in Beckley WV!
A perfect explanation of why he used Hogan over Macho Man
It's simple. Vince didn't make Flair.
Vince didn't make Hulk Hogan either
Flair was never THE guy with Vince, but a top talent and could always put over other talent and not lose credibility in the eyes of the fans. McMahon will always favor his own creations above something that others have created. Flair is plenty entertaining and a character/sports entertainment and all of that....but was a reminder of the wrestler chosen by the NWA promoters to be their champion. Signing Flair to come over as champion was a double win for Vince: he was able to rub the fact Flair is with the WWF in the faces of NWA/WCW, while also showing the world that the NWA's top guy, would be jobbing to Hogan, like all the other talents; basically showing everyone that it is the WWF that has the top champion. Flair never pinned Hogan or anyone else to get the WWF title and when Flair lost it, it was to someone Hogan had plenty of victories over (Savage).
Flair regained the title that year and lost it to Bret. .
Except of course when Bobby The Brain showed up with the Big Gold and then Flair won the Royal Rumble from the #3 spot to win the undisputed World Wrestling Federation Heavyweight Championship. In other words Mark, Flair was THE GUY for Vince....also known as THE MAN. Nice try, but rather check history first before marking out to your own version.
@@yoholmes273 You're right. He won the title at Royal Rumble having not pinned or submitted anyone....and lost a few months later at Wrestlemania. Hogan, Backlund, Sammartino...examples of "top guy" and having the title for years on end without dropping it....Flair, loses in the first quarter after winning it. There's some facts for you. Flair was THE Man to the point that they never did Hogan vs. Flair bout at WM because Vince didn't like the reactions leading up to it and Hogan wasn't going to lose to Flair anyhow. The matches become Hogan vs. Sid and Flair vs. Savage as a result. Facts. Woo!
@@yardape99 Ric Flair was "The Guy" in WWF in the year 1992. If you don't believe it, it doesnt matter. Facts.
@@yardape99 Flair is a 19 time World champion and only like 2 of them were long reigns.....It wasn't like Vince booked him any differently than people before or after him.....
Vince respects legends and he basically saved Flair from the IRS. He's had Flair on the payroll almost 2 decades with a few spots of him in TNA, they fired Jim Ross instead of Ric Flair for Flair showing up drunk off his ass so you tell me......Not to mention, Flair won the World title and held it twice within a year of being in the company back when the WWF was hot.
From someone who grew up watching Mid Atlantic/NWA, when I first saw the WWE in the 80s my impression was that it was like a cartoonish joke. We loved seeing no nonsense men like Wahoo chop the stuffing out of opponents.
Thanks I enjoyed chopping people
From someone who grew up in Detroit Michigan where WWF was the only thing on when it was just local channels when ever I would see other wrestling promotions on t.v they always looked like hand me downs.. 2nd rate aka Spartan cheese not Kraft
@@ricflairWoooo choppy choppy pee pee. Ha.
@@donaldforeman4010 WWF production was always “professional” but the product is not for everyone. Some of us preferred the gritty NWA/WCW style.
@@flch95 I totally understand As I grew older I appreciated the other organizations it was just hard as a kid with all the light, camera, action going on with the WWF to watch others that looked like they were recorded with an at home recorder
I can’t 100% agree with Jim’s assessment that Flair was this serious wrestler as opposed to WWF guys. He was the goofiest, funniest wrestler I ever saw
His promos were wild. They were meant to be. But in the ring he was serious business over 99% of the time. Flair’s ring psychology was next level. He could tell a story like none other.
I’d say the top 3 psychologists in the business, in no particular order, were Flair, Savage, Jake Roberts.
That’s what Jim’s talking about when he said Flair was a serious wrestler.
@@dr.floridamanphd again, I disagree. In ring, he was a goofball, flopping around like a cartoon, always taking the same hilarious bumps, always with same beg-offs, etc
Flair was too small to be taken seriously as World Champion. Secondary title? Yeah... definitely.
Agreed. I always find it odd that anyone would bring up Ric Flair as an example of a "realistic" wrestler when his signature moves were mostly silly comedy spots that are about as realistic as Hogan's hulking up. I think it's usually NWA fans who say it, because they want to protect the idea of it being "serious" and "legit" compared to the "cartoony" WWF.
Jim is absolutely right that those of us in the South wanted to see Ric beat the crap out of Hulk.
Amen!!
I prefer watching wrestling from 50's through the 70's because my grandmother watched Gorgeous George and two decades later I watched 70"s wrestling. Old time wrestling is my favorite thing to watch and talk to my friend about it.
When I first saw Corny on Sunday Night Heat I didn't think I was gonna like him. He's good for business.
I would love to hear Vince Mcmahon's top 50 wrestlers.
The Great Khali, Bautista, Andre the Giant, Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior...
The Undertaker 1-25, Kane 26-35, Hulk Hogan 35-47, Triple H, Andre, Warrior.
How would Vince have booked Ric Flair in the 80s? Just ask GREG VALENTINE and RICKY STEAMBOAT, who Vince always treated like mid carders! Remember Wrestlemania 8?
It was shameful they way that WWF used some of those guys back then . Steamboat got NO PUSH whatsoever and pretty much wrestled against jobbers on the 1st match of the card when he returned in the 90s
Steamboat was one of the best wrestlers of the 80s and early 90s, and yeah WWE didn't use him right at all, it's so frustrating! And yes, Valentine is another similar case, I hated that!
@Aaron Lassiter But as Mr.Cornette pointed out, once Vince ran out of ideas, he gave Flair his release!
Steamboat and Valentine had pretty good runs in the 80’s. Valentine was IC champ and tag champ and Steamboat was IC champ. Not sure what you mean by treating them like mid carders.
@@davidkos74 Those are mid card titles...
This is where Jim let’s his personal feelings get in the way of…reality. I watched those first few matches of Flair vs. Hogan. And those crowds did not want to see Flair kick the shit out of Hogan. They went bat shit crazy when Hogan beat Flair. Sure, Hogan’s gimmick got old and he had to adjust. But when he came in, they absolutely wanted to see Flair get beat.
As an adult I love and respect flair and his legacy. As a child I loved and remembered warrior until my adult years.
Jim Cornette: "Now the WWE product is the 'believable' one"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAHAHAHAAAAA
He just hates AEW, an irrational hatred.
I grew with wrestling.. I love the old school guys. I'm from Texas so my first love is World Class Champion Wrestling. Von Erich's, Briscos, Harley Race,Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair.. I love that era. But I love Hulk too. Granted completely different presentation and styles.. but he was the first guy for me the comic book character come to life. So I like them both
I saw a documentary in WWE network, were Hogan said that he gave VKM a paper with their match written out also
I don’t know about you guys but since Corny is pretty much a wrestling historian I would love to hear him talk about when the change took place in the WWF from realistic style pro wrestling like the NWA to the very cartoony style wrestling that WWF would end up being known for.
Just a guess, since I’m no historian, but I’ll say it’s when Jr. took over from Sr.
Bret Hart wasn't a cartoon
@@chadk890 and you know what Jr did to him.
It happened in 1983 when Bob Backlund lost the title to the Iron Shiek which was done so Hogan could win the title form a heel
@@kevinhiggins7838 Yeah and they made peace, it is what it is
It's got to be, at least in part, that Flair was so often a thorn in his side. It's a little bit like when a good player from a rival team to your favorite gets signed to your team. Even though he may be on your side now it's still hard to root for them.
Flair with the Warrior face paint. 🤣
I think this was a perfect answer from Jim.
vince actually loves flair you can look up vids where flair cries bc he talks about vince and how he gave him money etc.
I mean they had this amazing retirement angle and a great farewell send off only for flair to go to tna. So i mean its kind of both in all honesty
If a man needs to provide for his family it doesn't matter how old he is or if he had a huge retirement he's a man.
@@randallstucky9013 pretty sure he had a job after that he just wanted to still wrestle so that excuse doesn't work.
@@donvito8064 "excuse" get a grip, you've typed exactly what someone who's never being great at something successful types, another typical frustrated nobody on youtube
@@mrfreeze2446 ...he's referring to the inconsistency of wrestling when a bunch of people had already come out to say goodbye, ending with Vince McMahon, right after his WrestleMania match. He cried and seemed to really believe he was done having matches. And Ric has acknowledged that because of this, his run in another company needs an 'excuse'.
@@goodday2760 smh, you missed the point by a comical margain, so let me just repeat-get a grip 🤦
Remember in the death of WCW episode of confidential Ric said he wasn't sure if him and Vince's relationship diminished after he left in 93
I'll still say Vince treated Flair quite well for the 2 years he was there in the early 90s.
The face and flag bearer of the old rival, NWA, he came in and retained his name, retained his gimmick and persona and feuded with some of the top WWF guys (Savage, Perfect, Taker on house shows and Bret).
Didn't get given a stupid occupation or cartoon based gimmick like most other NWA or territories guys did and became a 2 time WWF champion.
The bigger question is why Ric Flair keeps crawling back to Vince McMahon???
Even Bret Hart really didn't fully come back to Vince.
Bret was smart with his money, and has a large Lloyds of London insurance policy to fall back on after his concussion and later stroke. Bret has mentioned that, at one point, he was craving getting back into the ring after having a Dream of wrestling Kurt Angle. But sadly, his health wouldn't allow it. Nor would he want to, or be willing to, risk his LoL insurance.
Flair openly admits that, in his heyday, if he made a million dollars, he spent two million. Add in multiple marriages without a single prenup, and the man has been hammered for alimony by his ex-wives. Including the longest one who divorced him because he came out and told a story about being Ric Flair and fucking all the women about two decades after the event in question. Flair has likewise had REALLY bad luck with investments, and been embezzled by at least one accountant that I am aware of.
TL;DR: Ric tends to need money. Bret does not.
Vince never wanted Bret back.
Flair/Heenan/Perfect was one of the best things vince ever did.
But look how long that lasted.
Wwf had the 4 horsemen! all he did was replace JJ Dillion with Heenan 🤔.
What could of been...
Heenan made almost anything good though, to be fair.
This is the most sacrilegious picture I have ever seen
How is Vince not a Flair guy? It's a BS overstatement.
When Flair came to WWE in 1992, he was immediately pushed to the very top. RR 1992 title win, WM 8 title match with Macho Man. Then in 2001, Flair came back as a co owner of WWE, a character in direct opposition to Vince's own. Then at WM 18 he wrestled Undertaker, then he was part of Evolution, and then he had solid or high profile feuds with Orton, HHH and ultimately the huge reti match at WM 24, unprecedented at the time.
He didn't push Ric to the top of the card all the time after 2001, but considering Flair's age, that's understandable.
And he paid for his fifth or so divorce, bailed him out when he owed IRS hundreds of thousands, etc.
If anything, Vince McMahon clearly IS a Ric Flair guy.
If Flair's first push wasn't to the moon, I don't know what is. I also, know the typical size and look that gets the best treatment in the WWF/E.
Strange thing is, by that time Flair went to the WWF, his style had changed quite a bit. It was very "WWF-ish" and over-the-top so I don't think he didn't like Flair cause his style was "too realistic" lol
As far as Flair vs Hogan, me and my friends were like "oh boy, Hogan would not be able to do all this against Flair and the Horsemen". Like it would be more even cause the 4H had the know-how, the intelligence and the numbers. But when Hogan shows up in WCW, Ric didn't have the Horsemen with him, all he had was Sherry Martel as valet! So it was was an unfair fight against 6 foot 8 Hogan.
You mention about the Horsemen, and that makes me wonder how much different the dynamic would be if you had a Horseman Flair against Hogan for his first match.
It's really a shame that the 4H came along too early to fight the NWO. They literally were so over they could have saved the company.
There needs to be a "I'm a Lena Horn Guy" shirt now!
*Horne
He may not be a Ric flair guy but he is certainly a Chorlette flair guy.
Another EXCELLENT answer! Cornette is GOLD!
Even though Vince isn't really a great Booker he's great at business decision and now WWE will always be considered part of pop culture and mainstream
He is one of the best booker
Simple bc Vince didn't create the Ric Flair gimmick.
Didn't create Hogan either. Hulkamania was already a thing in the AWA before he came back to New York when Vince Jr. Took over WWF.
Vince did have the original, Buddy Rogers doing Roger's Corner
@Aaron Lassiter But Vince probably had a different mentality back then though
@@terrencecastonguay1984 also Flair did create his own gimmick either he borrowed elements from other wrestlers
Ric Flair "Hulk Hogan matches were my favorite. Easiest night of work I ever did. I love Hogan"
Vince always liked HBK, who despite being an asshole was an incredible athletic worker, and made matches look real.
Wooo!
Always seemed funny to me how Vince is quick to bury anything WCW related but pushes the daughter of Mr. WCW to Pluto
VKM likely feels he “made” Charlotte.
Didn't Austin, Taker, Foley ,Hall and Nash came from WCW?
@@chadk890 exactly, that narrative is so dumb. there's multiple wcw who were successful in WWE
@@chadk890 How many of them kept their gimmick from WCW though? You can't really change Flair's gimmick...he basically is the gimmick. Vince wanted the WWF/E to come up with gimmicks for 99% of the guys who came from another promotion (look at what they did to DDP. Lol). All those other guys had gimmick changes to a more successful version (and with Foley and Austin, their most successful versions).
@@chadk890 Exactly. They came FROM WCW not after
Hogan took WCW higher than Flair ever did. WCW nosedived when they didn't have any serious plans for Hogan's successor.
That about sums it up perfectly
Flair had great promos, but almost always the same spots and same matches
One reason might be that Vince had zero involvement in the creation of Ric Flair as he was already a mega star when he went to the WWF. Hogan, Steve Austin, and Undertaker as stars were directly overseen by Vince.
Hogan was already a star between the Rocky 3 movie, the highest paid wrestler in the industry with his AWA and NJPW tours and basically "fully formed," but most people don't remember it that way...Hogan was on the top of the list of being poached by Vince.
Did I swear you kids just read comments and re-write them all in your own words and take it as fact. Ridiculous. Do some research
Not all fans in the northeast were in love with the WWF wrestling product once exposed to Crockett Promotions a lot liked the NWA in the northeast
Imagine if they had discovered and brought in Batista a little bit sooner and had him as good as he was in 2005-2007 as early as 2000-2003
Cornette is delusional and clearly on Vince's payroll. " WWE is more believable than AEW". Clearly delusional
Irony.
How's he's on Vince payroll? It's like every time someone makes a critique about AEW , you fans whine and moaned shot someone in Wwe's payroll. SHUT UP
I'd like to hear him qualify that for sure. Most of the wrestling today isn't believable/realistic, however I don't think that the majority of the people involved even want it to be. Both AEW and WWE have done some very silly matches (mimosa match ... zombie lumberjacks) recently.
Cornette knows. He knows the boys. He knows the history. He knows the business. I never get tired of listening.
The point he makes at 5:30 is undeniable. We all were waiting to see Flair wipe the floor with Hogan, and we didn’t get an ounce of it. It sucked.
Flair dropped the title to 'Rugged Ronnie', did you see the size of him when he hit WWE, Greg the 'Hammer' dwarfed him in size. Wipe the floor with Hogan my butt lol
Our final question
I've never been a Ric Flair fan neither, just never liked his character.
Ok, but did you ever get to watch him in the 80's and very early 90's? His prime was like late 70's through about '92 when he won the Royal Rumble. After that he was still great but the best days were behind him.
Bret hart was a better technician than flair
Flair was always better than hogan. I always preferred flair.
Everybody that watched both WWF & NWA always picked Flair > Hogan but if you ONLY watch WWF I think most people would choose Macho Man > Hulk Hogan. However we all know that in Vince’s eyes it was Hogan above ALL.
Flair was a wrestler, hogan was a superhero
Yep.. I always liked Flair over Hogan even though Hogan was the bigger draw..
That's great guys. Make sure you tell all the people you meet about this. Super Important!
Most everyone was better than Hogan...
He did give Flair a great farewell thing I have to admit.
Bret doesn't think much of Flair as a wrestler either from the matches they had.
Also, thanks for reminding me again how the nWo's run should've ended in 1998 (with the beginning of the end being Sting squashing Hogan at Starcade 97) through putting over people but Hall, Nash and Hogan wouldn't have liked that...
2:00 “Flair got over by making people believe” …by having the same match every night and doing the same spots over and over within the same match?!?
Yeah, real believable.
💯
Professional wrestling already was entertainment before Jim cornette even showed up on the scene. *That's the reason it was a work*
Never a "flair guy" yet lent him a quarter of a million dollars when Flair had the IRS after him in '92. Also lent him 800,000 dollars during his divorce i believe, and face timed him/called him everyday when he was sick. He talks about all of this in an interview he did not to long ago.
Vince's father was on the Board Of Directors that voted Ric NWA Champ in 1981
Remember on that wrestling episode of South Park, they had Vince Mcmahon in the audience wth those opera spectacles? 🤣🤣🤣
"WWE are the believable one..." And established fighters like Bayzler are giving promos to puppets, while the Miz and Johnny Impact are gettin eatin by zombies... Keep going??) Gtfoh dude!?!
He is comparing them to aew.
@Wasp Factory wwe has an air of professional quality that aew lacks. It's like they air their trainees as professionals.
Like it’s said over and over …. Vince has lost all reality of the business of pro wrestling. It’s painfully obvious. Time for him to step down. Way way waaaaaaaaay past time
Agreed.. Plus, i love cornette, but he doesn't really say much of how shitty WWE has become, i like AEW, but i know they are shitty too , but at least they're making an effort to try. He just focuses on his hate for the Young Bucks.
I think Corny is 100% wrong. Hogan going over Flair in 94 was the right call for what they were trying to do. They weren't playing to the NWA/WCW audience, they were trying to get WWF and general fan eye balls.
I listen to this show so much I know now that Sh*t Stain= Russo, Twinkle Toes/Olivier= Omega, Dwarf Dong Sucker= Stunt, and now Lena Horne= Lacey Evans. I love Corney's nicknames.
According to the late Bruno Sammartino, you seen one Flair match, you’ve seen them all. I take nothing from Flair in terms of what he’s accomplished, but Flair wasn’t so great in the ring. Someone can be a good worker and a terrible wrestler, and that was Flair.
"WWE is the believable product."
Because Alexa Bliss is so believable. When you have to say things this blatantly untrue to have a dig at AEW, you know you are losing the argument.
Dude, stop cherry picking words
He clearly said AEW makes WWE look like the more believable product , not that WWE is a believable product.
@Wasp Factory You do know he ripped that zombie segment as well right? He said that AEW looks so bullshit that it makes the WWE look believable in comparison. To put it simply, it's a low bar.
@Wasp Factory Jim don't read UA-cam comments.. Also I don't see why you can't grasp the simple concept of someone saying something is so shit that it make the other products which is also shit look better. It's not that hard of a concept dude.
On Ric Flair joing Vince in '85 or '88, Terry Taylor thinks HE wouldn't have been the "Red Rooster."
He liked him enough to put the strap on him twice in one year in that brief run he had when he won the Rumble
Trump 2024
Cornette 2024
WOOO
Get over it
Please stop bringing politics to wrestling that shit isn’t edgy or cool.
Mr.trump