Misgendering someone isn't you being an asshole, you cannot control my speech. Good on you for trying to be a "good person" by changing your speech, but I will not. People like yourself that hate on others having a difference of opinion is the issue, stop trying to be an appeaser then straight after being nice, to being a judgemental ASF towards people that don't wish to change their speech.
Sounds a sexual fetish. We should put more sex fetishes in the cartoon-like video games? Perhaps the next hero should be a man who identifies as a woman…. and he can utter phrases about how scary it was to get his cock cut off..
@@supersoaker317me too lol i got somewhat interested after watching the lw gm video but seeing his rlly based takes is rlly refreshing knowing certain streamers exist @supersoaker317
there is literally an intelligent hamster and talking monkey and a whole race of robots who ascended their plane of thought through a godly figure and this is what people find unrealistic?
I mean, most of them were birthed from the development and expanded discovery of science, if Im being honest Im impressed they didnt figure out the cure to disphoria.
It’s hilarious to think that people look at this game and go “I’m okay with the genetically enhanced homosexual soldier, the lesbian time traveler, sentient robots, talking monkey scientist, the flying bazooka lesbian, the space hamster, the invisible Mexican, the purple sniper, and the asexual twink but calling someone by their preferred pronouns is where I draw the line”
To be fair a lot of the people causing discourse about ventures gender also have problems with soldier being gay And they don't care about lesbians bc they sexualize them.
Nah you should have seen how people were crying about soldier because their was a picture frame of his husband in the background on screen for 1 second. "WOKE ALWAYS SHOVING GAY DOWN OUR THROAT🤬🤬🤬"
cant believe the guy that says bingus schmingus and laughs about it for 20 mins is more sane than a lot of overwatch players anyway in a fight you should say the characters name anyway "lucio low" instead of "he's low" or "venture low" instead of "they are low" because both is equally confusing nobody knows who you mean with "he" or "they"
In my mother tongue a neutral pronoun doesn't really exist. I catch myself calling venture 'she' by accident because im not used to 'they/them' and force myself to correct it. Venture having they/them pronouns really helps me getting used to using it and in turn improves my english skills and probably makes me fuck up less if i ever meet people using those pronouns in real life.
Bro who are you pandering to you're not a streamer that will be criticized by 1000 lazy with nothing better to do. A fictional character won't get her feelings hurt and nobody will hear you say she. Just say what's natural forcing yourself to use a wack pronoun is just pandering for the sake of internet brownie points do you can post a comment like this one.
@@g_vostsingular they/them is NOT new lmao "someone dropped their phone, i hope i can get it back to them!". i don't know any sane person that says "someone dropped his or her phone, i hope i can get it back to him or her." like you genuinely sound nutty if you talk like that
@@g_vost”to each their own.” “a store might need a new manager and they will need to have some experience to get the job.” “find a babysitter who can prove they are responsible and certified in cpr.” “an employee will not do a good job if they don’t have enough experience.” if someone breaks something and you saw it, you know it’s THEIR problem and not yours. these all make perfect sense. The pronoun "they" can be used as a singular pronoun when it is used to refer to a person whose sex is not known or specified. because English does not have a common-gender, or gender neutral, third person singular personal pronoun, writers and speakers often use they. It is a well-established use. so it actually has been around a while, in fact the use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.
I disagree, giving something that has no gender he/she pronouns is a way to familiarize or personify something that clearly has no affiliation to either. I don’t think it’s insane, it’s just human nature. While someone who identifies as they/them isn’t as clear cut as a robot, unless they establish it first. I see what you’re getting at, just maybe not the best example in this instance.
Soon people will get offended for calling a robot - human or a human - robot, it's just a never ending cycle that isn't going to end. The problem is when people try and force others to call them these many different pronouns and if they don't then they get cancelled or loose their jobs or are shamed. Just call someone by there names, that's why they exist they have a purpose and meaningful existence in the world. Pronouns exist for others to describe the world around them as they see it from their perception. Zenyatta is just Zenyatta or Zen for short, no need to complicate things more then they need to be.
@@IdLestat-jq2cino, pronouns exist because it's uncomfortable to refer to the same thing multiple sentences in a row. I get what you're going for, but the word "you" counts as a pronoun too. Same as "I"
@@zendakkthe context of the sentence makes singular and plural “they” very easy to distinguish. Did you know that there are 430 definitions of the word “set”? We are able to use those without our heads exploding, so we should be able to handle a word having 2.
@@meat. I mean the movement has allowed countless people to exist without being murdered for how they identify... i think a small vocabulary change in return for literal saved lives definitely makes the world a better place
The people saying "its just my opinion" somehow expecting that means their opinion deserves to be respected are idiots. I'm not going to respect an opinion that is inherently disrespectful of others. If I were to do so that would make me disrespectful, and no better than the people saying those things in the first place.
What’s funny is that it tends to be also the same people who will get offended when u inflict something that matters to them in their life. It’s just dumb
An opinion never demands respect, its a viewpoint individual of others. It's not designed to be respected, that comes down to the individual and their response. An opinion that serves to destroy can still be respected, not in a agreeable manner, but one that enables meaningful conversation. Thats how all debates work. A disagreement that can be percieved as disrespectful but can produce extremely insightful conversations. You dont have to agree with what I say, but consider, what is gained from ignoring a disrespectful opinion, or debating it.
@@leo_wentzel Oh look at you, you added so much didnt you. If you dont have anything informative or insightful to say in response to an actual attempt of genuine discussion, you can dismiss yourself. Last time I called, I didnt say I was right, I said lets talk.
Bogur, this video as a non-binary person means an incredible amount to me. Opening up this conversation is incredibly important, and your words made me feel extraordinarily validated, and I respect you to a huge degree because of that. A single content creator has never made me more proud of who I am, so thank you, Bogur.
What do you mean without canon LGBTQ characters? Tracer is a Lesbian, Pharah is bi or lesbian, I think Baptiste is either bi or gay, Soldier is gay, etc etc
@@Jervenshmine That's hard to say because their queer identities influence that perception. Taking that away, I'm not sure if the vibe would be even remotely the same. The queerness goes into the skins, the voice lines, emotes, etc. So idk.
I honestly wonder how they're going to talk about Venture in any latin language, like my native language, portuguese. There are contexts in wich we use a non-binary pronoun, but it's the same as the male one. As in we use the male pronouns as also non-binary
@@Anonymous-lv4di Idk actually. I've seen some nb people from languages that only have gendered pronouns use a different letter, like Elle instead of Ella or Ello.
@@SoggySubwhich doesnt matter here because advanced biology is a thing, as is advanced physics and advanced mathematics dont be transphobic, because its stupid and incorrect :)
@@yvesthursday and neither are non binary people. They’ve got a penis or they don’t. It’s not that difficult to find out, just look below your waist, if you can even do that.
It’s so funny from the guy who said that Bogur should be calling Winston “it”, as if he isn’t a male sentient being. I don’t classify Winston as a thing tbh, just like how I talk about my dogs using she/her 💀
not calling venture by their preferred pronouns bc it's a fictional character is such a stupid argument... Real people see that you misgender venture and that's the entire point. It shows them that you do not respect their identity and it normalizes misgendering. It's not hard to be kind :/ Atleast I can now quickly tell which streamers aren't worth watching :))
It definitely hurt a little when I heard one of my favorite streamers not say there preferred pronouns on purpose but. Weeds are weeds they'll be pulled out and left in the dust.
If you feel the need to get upset over a streamer not respecting a fictional character s pronoun you need to go outside. There is literally thousands of bigger issues
@@ChimpRevolutionYou're getting upset over people getting upset that streamers are purposefully misgendering a fictional character. Why aren't you out there solving world peace? and fix the whole world hunger thing while you're at it.
@@ChimpRevolution streamers are strangers i do not know their values unless they tell me and through their actions. If they can't even respect a fictional characters identity it's indicative of what they think about real people with that identity. I want everyone to feel welcome and safe and if you can achieve that by literally typing a few letters and *refuse* to that's weirdo behavior and not worth my time
8:00 "nothing bad happens if you call somebody they/them" Come on, the most horrific thing happens: fragile masculinity and egos get shattered to pieces the moment a mf says they/them 😂
Respecting anyone is the most masculine and feminine thing you can do. Being a dickhead doesn't make you either of those things. Respect isn't earned, but should be a given and kept from the start by maintaining it.
Is that not just as valid as someone being upset that they've been mis-gendered? What makes it fair to say that someone can't be offended that they're being called they/them when their preferred pronouns don't align with that? /gen
@@ElusiveTy But if you call someone they/them and they correct you then you call them what they prefer. If you call someone a she/her and they prefer they/them then you use that instead. It is not hard, people just want to be mad. The op was just saying that if you call them by their preferred pronouns bigots get mad for no reason.
@@ElusiveTythey/them is a gender neutral term, meaning it inherently lacks any specific gender when used. This means it can be used to refer to a group of multiple people, to someone not on the binary spectrum of genders, or to someone who’s gender you don’t know at the moment. Usually you’d refer to someone with they/them if you don’t know yet and are talking to someone else about that person.
Dumbest take I've seen in a while. Respect someone off rip and watch how easily you get your asshole pulled apart by shitty people out there.@@Lukewarm618
@@maxboyden5209 Tbf when i started playing them like a week ago i had no idea either. Did not check the promo stuff bc i wasn't playing. I said something about them in teamchat and said she, got corrected and that's how i found out lmfao. Lot of people don't care for the promo stuff or the game in general anymore so it's easy to miss that way.
Hey, I just wanted to say, as a non-binary person, I greatly appreciate all you've said in this video. It really touched me, and I am so grateful for you. Especially your comment about how a lot of us struggle actually living as our true selves in a society dead-set on silencing us. I really appreciate that, especially as someone who legally cannot be recognised as who I am. Your support, and your words are a comfort, and I am incredibly grateful for that. And also, as an aspiring teacher who's working on their Masters right now, you are totally correct! They/them is a valid English third person pronoun, which, fun fact, has existed longer than the possessive "its" has! English is a funny language, where most extra pronouns got "dropped" in more modern times due to everybody's fear of being rude (which is why we no longer use thee/thou), but they/them remained! The "you" we have today is, technically, younger than "they"! That's a fun little fact for y'all :) They has been used as a neuter third person pronoun for a While, and is older than the neuter modern "it". Modern English is a rather new language, all things considered, especially as its grammar kept changing quite rapidly with the influx of different influences. And if anyone wants to argue that it ISN'T a valid third person neuter pronoun...please actually use linguist arguments, and not your basic High School or Quick Google Search knowledge. 'Cos, otherwise, I'm just going to trust the myriad of professors I know who has made it their lives work to understand the history of the English Language :)
11:01 Venture may not have feelings but as a nonbinary person _I_ do. Treating them with respect by trying to use the correct pronouns is affirming my existence and actively disrespecting them is neglecting/dismissing my existence. I can’t speak for others but that’s my two cents Edit: I literally never use the phrase “two cents” wth
Literally this. There's no excuse to not respect another person's identity. It's called being a human being. If the concept of other people being different from you is that hard of an idea to grasp, then you need to learn basic empathy. Everyone is beautiful and worthy of being given love.
I would put it slightly differently, it's not about respecting the identity but the person, so even if you don't respect the identity you still give them the dignity of using their preferred pronouns, even if you don't believe in it.
No it's not, it's asking me to speak in a weird un-natural way, and getting mad if people refer to you as a gender. If I told you to refer to me as Ze/Zim and got mad anytime you refered to me as anything but Ze/Zim, you'd probably get annoyed af and want me to fuck off. Also I'm only in my 20's, it's not like I'm a geriatric senile old man, and I'm genuinely confused AF with the whole entire alphabet of things. Some people want to have gay sex or wear dresses etc, they have free will, do whatever rocks your boat. But genuinely wtf is a non-binary? How can you not identify with a gender? Wtf even is a "gender" in this context, being a dude or chick doesn't mean anything as to what you can enjoy doing or dress like or anything. I can't wrap my head around any of this shit no matter how much I try to understand, at least with most stuff I disagree with I can see and understand the logic of the people who disagree with me, but this shit is just baffling.
The battle is not with people, but their perception of reality. You can love. person, but dislike what they do, are believe to be. I agree everyone should be loved, but my experience of reality tells me that the things Ive been through, are what make me. Feelings are flimsy, good indicators, but horrible tools for navigation. If you base yourself with your feelings, I promise you, that wont be you. The notion of a persons identity, is one made from expiriance. If you dislike those who dislike other people for their identity, that isnt fair. They have as much of a valid voice as yours, meaning their opinions have as much weight as yours. Telling them their wrong wont fix it, but having a formal discussion or debate will give both of you that oppurtunity to understand and even be convinced of the other view. No garuntees though.
@@lukasg4807 it's not for you to understand, you just have to respect. Are you confused? Don't know about the topic? You're in your 20's, you clearly have Internet connection. Instead of writting an essay on how "ze/zim" want to get called, you could have just googled shit. "WHATS A NONBINARY????" Ask fucking Alexa, ask ChatGPT, just write that on any search bar and educate yourself with people who can teach you. Since you just don't want to, make it be like rocket science: you don't understand it too, then just accept it
@@lukasg4807 my guy I think you explained nonbinary yourself lmao. Gender is entirely a construct, dresses were worn by men, then woman. It may change back but right now its a "female" thing. nonbinary is just saying I am a person, I don't really feel like a woman or a man im just gonna vibe as myself. If you believe gender isn't real and that you can do whatever you want then your already a ally of nonbinary people as thats exactly what it is. Rejecting gender as you don't feel its real is baised. If peeps say they are a guy or girl and that box helps them know who they are then good on them, but some peeps don't fit into ether box and thats alright.
most based and respectful chat. its crazy to me how people will misgender dogs and correct themselves once the owner tells them the correct pronouns to use but when it’s a human these people decide to be completely horrible about it or play dumb. by the way you are entitled to an opinion but when that opinion is harmful or rude, it is not exempt from criticism. You have a controversial and objectively bad opinion so you will be called out on it…. simple as that
the "free speech" argument always makes me laugh. like sure, you can SAY whatever you want. that doesn't mean you won't get called out for being a terrible bigot, and streamers are allowed to ban you from their personal chat 🤷🏻♀️
It also makes me laugh that they cry about free speech while actively discouraging others free speech because it doesn't fit their prerogative. They can't even support their own argument with their own logic.
I personally don't mind saying they/them for the character and supporting non binary people in that way, but I also think it is wrong to force people to see things the same way that I do in that regard. Not using they them for a character isn't disrespectful to the character that isnt real and you aren't a disrespectful person by not doing so. Not supporting the ideal shouldn't be considered disrespectful either and that is a choice everyone deserves.
@@megamecha100that’s completely fair, but again, while you have the right to disagree, so does everyone else have the right to call you out. obviously venture isn’t real, they aren’t going to get upset if you misgender them, but it’s not about venture, it’s about what venture represents, and in my opinion, going against that ideal is inherently at least a little disrespectful, as you’re denying someone a fairly large part of their identity.
@@defaultdan7923 merely not aligning with an ideal should not be considered disrespectful, since that would mean you would be disrespectful to disagree with anything that people have a strong attachment to and you would be forced to switch sides based on that. I think in this case going against the rules set by bogur while in his chat would be disrespectful to him
All freedom of speech means is that you can’t be arrested for words or silenced by the government. It doesn’t mean you won’t face consequences for being an ass
Bro being non binary isn't some insane thing you're born with. You decided to be non binary just as easily as you can decide not to be. Why say these things like you're just being absolutely disregarded based off of things that are very face value and aren't genetically alterable.
@@Sarcassholeoh yeah cause people choose to become a minority that get hate for no reason do you think people choose to be in danger just to have a label so youre correct non binary isnt something insane people get born with but just something people get born with
@@Sarcasshole Gender is also not something you're born with, only your genitals are, and objectively, they only really serve a reproductive function and nothing else. What society has come to relate to genitals, namely sex and gender, are 100% sociological inventions that are made to try and force people into behavioral patterns. Someone not wanting to fit into those behavioral patterns and choosing language (another human invention that is ever and constantly changing) to communicate it to their circles is perfectly normal and indicates healthy self-awareness.
The thing about "they/them" is that is by far the easiest adjustment to make of all the pronouns. We already use they/them all the time given context so using it a little more often is easy it just takes a little time doing it to adjust. It's nothing like say being told you gotta say xer or something else thats newer. Its prolly the same people who refuse to say Cassidy instead of Mccree but only because they think they're going against the libs or something not because they're just so used to the name Mccree over Cassidy.
Venture might be not "a real person", however there are real non-binary people who would be very happy to hear others being understanding and respectful towards Venture. It is just so so great to see ppl actually respecting someone like them.
@@ChimpRevolution 1. Non binary people exist and it is a real thing. 2. Even if it didn't exist, Venture is a fictional character so even if it was a fictional thing, it could exist in a fictional world anyways if the creators chose to, which they have. I don't see why it's so hard to literally use two words that you unknowingly use all the time anyways. You don't even have to do that, just use their name it's so simple my god.
It’s like calling a fictional character a racial slur. Yeah, you’re not directly insulting a real person but you’re telling real people what you actually think about them.
I just wanted to say thank you bogur. I'm a trans/nonbinary person and seeing venture being added to the game makes me feel seen and apart of something. I've been physically and verbally assaulted many times for my identity. Venture not only makes us feel included but also brings awareness to people like me. The sad truth is trans/nonbinary people are some much more likely to be raped, assaulted, and murdered then cis people for just trying to live their life and characters like this help us with bring awareness to this problem but also shows just how much more we have to go to truly be accepted. It's hard and painful. I've cried myself to sleep many times wishing I was "normal." I've thought of ending my life many times. People that can't accept this simple idea don't see people like us as people. We are less than them. We are weird and freaks. Character like venture are important to my community and myself! It let's us have a chance to be seen and heard. I would also like to counter argue some of the "argument" that I see about people like me. 1.) "freedom of speech" Sure, you can midgender people all you want BUT that doesn't mean you're free from the consequences of that action. People will call you out on it. People will think you're rude and an asshole. If you can't accept that then maybe don't midgender people/characters. 2.) "it's just a video game character" Well technically yes it! You're so smart. The way you view video game characters tho reflect how you view the world around you. If you're not afraid to midgender them what's to stop you from midgendering me or someone else. This does effect people like me not only does it normalize people like us but it also shows we are people that deserve respect just like everyone else. 3. "They isn't a singular pronoun" Well, you're just wrong. They has been used as a singular pronoun for hundreds of years. Simply Google it. Even if it wasn't language changes and evolved with the people that speak it. It has since the beginning of people. Just because you "don't agree with it" doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or will happen. 4. "This is new and woke bullshit" Again this isn't a new concept. It has been around since people have been. I would love to educate you but sometimes you have to do work yourself. Ignorance can only be an excuse for so long. I'm a real person with thoughts, emotions, desires, and faults just like everyone else. If I i can respect you, you can respect me wanting to be called they/them or any other pronoun I choose. My life isn't an issues. My existence isn't a problem. My need to exist isn't a political argument. I am a human. I need to breath sleep and eat just like you. If you can't accept a tiny thing I i would like to be called then I'm not the problem. You are. I'm rambled on enough i think. I appreciate anyone who took the time to read all of this. Bogur i just want you to know, You have made me truly feel safe in a community. That is very rare to find these days. I appreciate it. Also to the people that are truly trying to understand and learn. Thank you. We do appreciate that. If you slip up sometimes, it's okay we know you're trying and that's all that matters. Have a wonderful night or day. Again thank you to whoever got this far. I appreciate you. Ps. I did write this at 4 in the morning so apologies if it a bit rambly and a mess. I just wanted to express my feelings.
I feel sad that these completely unreasonable weird thing of seeing queer people as less is still existing, i cant get in in my mind, its just useless and easy to not do. I hope u have a happy live with how u are and keep in mind that a very very big part of humanity stands behind u and sees no fucking problem with it, the dumb guys are just the loudest, sadly.
extremely refreshing take coming from someone not under the lgbt+ umbrella thank you bogur for championing basic respect. big love from one of your lesbo subs for supporting my nb fam during a time people are a lil extra hellbent on invalidating their experiences and identities. i would be surprised if anyone really expected differently from you on this topic with how effortlessly respectful and fun your streams with the zesties are but believe me its still very nice to hear it regardless 💞
The disparity between watching some of dafran or noobhunter's/etc content and seeing people's general vibe in comments/chat there, and the absolutely based comments and chat of bogur's, flat's, ml7's and eskay's is so relieving, from how it looked in the other two I was beginning to think that the OW community really wasn't as welcoming as I originally viewed it as, but this and the rest's have restored my faith. As loud as the bigots may be I will continue to be happy with the fact that for every 1 of them there is so many more welcoming players :D Thank you so much for giving this conversation it's own dedicated video, love your content and vibe, wish I had come across your content earlier and I definitely think I'll be returning for more of your wisdom and goofyness :3, once again thank you and have a great day :D
Was defrans chat that bad? Like, I don’t watch the dude so idk. What kind of stuff was going down there? I really appreciated bogur, flats, super, etc being normal dudes about too honesty
@@Sensei_gojo Was mostly a bunch of people going "yeah dafran is right, its for the comms definitely saying they is confusing fr" and other dumb takes like that, p much a bunch of excuses to misgender.
Because we typically identify someone's pronouns by their appearance and voice, learning to use the right ones for someone can be difficult. We shouldn't hound people who fail to do so. But yeah, if it's done intentionally (more specifically to real people), it's quite deserved.
yeah, there is a difference between accidentaly calling venture her and just putting an empashis when you say HER in all caps. one was a mistake, the other is being an asshole
@@mjodreaper8481you can’t fall back into one if you’ve never left. If you can’t show respect because you live in the 1800s just call them by their name then
They/Them pronouns used as a singular pronoun has been widely accepted by esteemed universities since 2015 and there's even been proof that it has been used as a singular pronoun as far back as 1375. Before someone comments "Oh yeah those liberal sissy colleges," I would like you to know that the Santa Clara University is a private Christian University that has recognized the use of They/Them pronouns as well and even has a great reference guide on why you SHOULD consider using it formally. They/Them pronouns are NOT new, ya'll just didn't care until you could use it to further your hatred. Thanks for coming to my TED talk, stay educated and stay safe!
yes ur right, it was used as a singular pronoun when you were speaking of someone you didn't know there gender. there are only 2 genders and once science can somehow morph you into a they/them don't act like its normal and weird for not using them.
The issue is so much worse in countries that dont have a official option for neutral pronouns. Like in brazilian portuguese (from where im from) where officially there's only "ele" (he) and "ela" (she), the non binary community uses "elu" for "they" but majority of ppl in the country makes fun of it or dont even use the term. I envy countries that atleast have a option, and it is absurd that this kind of basic thing is a big issue, it is just basic respect
yeah, in Spanish everything is very gendered so whenever I have to refer to my nonbinary friend, I have to use the male pronouns (I asked them first on which they prefer in Spanish). I've heard about using "Elle" or Ellx for the equivalent of they/them but the x one seems annoying to use. I haven't seen what pronouns spanish Overwatch uses for Venture and I'm a little nervous if they use the feminine pronouns.
I’m from Korea and we have no gendered pronouns. The ones that exist are strictly literary/translation lingo. When we refer to someone in a sentence, there is no way to know their gender unless we specifically say “that person is a man/woman.”
@@Leo-gk4qw Adding to this, in Korean there are soooo many gender neutral names. Some are more traditionally male/female however many modern names nobody would bat an eye if it were applied to men OR women. I noticed that other countries tend to be MUCH more strict with that and I wish it wasn’t. Who cares if a boy is Elizabeth? I find it sad actually.
There are people who legit refer to me using my online name despite them knowing my real one and then they straight up refuse to respect someone's pronouns.
The amount of people in the community using the 'it'll confuse callouts' excuse to avoid using they/them pronouns is wild. Most the time i call out i just say the characters name instead of the pronouns because there'll be multiple he's/she's on the team so why can't people just say 'ventures one'? I've literally seen people in Dafran's comment section captalise using SHE and HER and call people mentally ill for using the correct pronouns. The community is cooked.
It’s mad weird because Fr like if you’re too fucking emotional and egotistical to use they or them just call them by the damn name like “rein. Venture. Mercy”
i literally rarely hear pronouns in callouts, overwatch comms almost always utilize names and abilities. ppl r actually just pretending they use pronouns in their callouts just to have smthn to be upset about
I guess the problem arrives at the fact that people don't want to feel bad for misgendering people after growing up using a language where gendered pronouns have been the norm. But like. Nonbinary people are not going to cancel you for accidentally misgendering them. As long as it's not malicious and you eventually learn to refer them by correct pronouns you're good. And if they do cancel you, did it happen in Twitter, perchance?
Overwatch is a game with: -Talking gorillas -A hyper-intelligent hamster who also pilots a mech -Not one, but two characters who can pull out a pocket black hole at any time -A cyborg ninja who can use a simple sword to deflect not only the aforementioned black holes, but also a literal wave of fire (+ a bunch of other bullshit) -Whatever the fuck is going on with the Shimadas + Kiriko ("advanced tech" my ass, that's pure magic) -A French lady who became bluish purple because "her heartbeat was slowed down" (because that's how human anatomy works) -The entire concept of the IRIS -And so much more... But a person using they/them is where "it stops making sense". I think it's safe to say, all the people complaining about this are either below the age of 13 or man-children who never matured past 12.
It's a bit more nuanced than that because it's a real life political issue. Gamers have long been defensive of anything political entering gaming, so it's unsurprising. You've listed perfect examples of things that are outlandish in Overwatch but I think that's the point - they are outlandish, they don't exist in real life. Non-binary people DO exist and ARE very real, which is I think what makes it more of a controversial thing, not that I'm saying it should be just that I think that's why it is.
@@ElusiveTyit’s funny you say gamers don’t want politics when most of the biggest game franchises are popular because of their nuanced political stories lmao. Not saying you’re wrong btw, as I’ve seen a lot of right wing gamers say dumb shit like “we don’t want politics in video games” while praising fallout new Vegas. Just goes to show the media literacy of people who are being assholes to be assholes
People only care because its a highly political and moral issue today. It's not so much about problems with characters not aligning with reality specifically. No one questions "talking gorillas" for example, everyone knows that to not be true or reflecting real life, anyone contesting that would be crazy. Venture being a they/them isn't something where there is a vast consensus and agreeance on, so of course, controversy follows.
@@browut644 Political themed stories and modern day politics are two very different things ya little dishonest dandy. Along with obnoxious pandering for ESG and if you look at what ESG is that in itself is turning a game into a political product. How would you feel if you found out all the money you spend was going to fund trumps campaign and push some crazy AMERICA NUMBER ONE! CHRISTIANITY YAY propaganda bullshit? The very fact you believe you gotta be right wing to want this shit out of games tells me that you're politically captured.
as a nonbinary teen, this whole situations been pretty disheartening. but seeing streamers and even just random people defend venture makes me so happy, because i really see myself in venture. weve got so many things in common, and im so happy to finally have a character i can relate to
When I first started OW i thought it was a bit odd that Orisa and Echo went by she/her and Zen and Bastion went by he/him since they're robots. but now my headcanon is that theyre trans (non-binary to female/male) and they chose these pronouns for themselves bc thats what they preferred
I love that by the end of the conversation bogur got to the root of most of the hate, misogyny. It's a lot of the same people who were mad with female mcs and get super pissed anytime they are perceived feminine. Thank you Bogur, I didn't get recommended any of your vids til the drama started but you've earned a sub from me for being a kind respectful person and for playing the monkey character!
Bogur, the guy who has a Cyber Security degree understands this WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than lawyers and some people related to social science in my country. This world sometimes is though, we do not need conservatives that make it harder just because of "their" opinions, the bible, or just pure ignorance/dogmatism.
Try to see a middle ground with everyone, you are just outright denying their beliefs by saying "we don't need them" that makes you no different from them. Both parties should always have a civil conversation before concluding, based on nothing, that the other party is just evil for not accepting their beliefs. Not all conservatives are bad and not all are good, same goes for leftists. Just don't be the person you don't want to become, and don't generalize people.
@@aleksandarjevtic5802 dumbest string of words ive ever read. "listen guys, we cant be mean to the people who are pushing back on self expression that literally does nothing to them because........... they also have feelings! because they are also humans! i am very smart!" lmao
The whole situation just weeds out all the immature babies in the ow community. People who purposefully misgender them with the “SHE looks so fun” are just telling on themselves and admitting how badly they want attention lmao
@@kannakamui9584Wait wtf there are actually people pissed about that? I just hear people call him McRee smtimes but i never knew people are raging about that lmao
@@ChrisChross545 idk lol. No one is raging about it just because it was said weird ass. It’s just shocking how ppl want to stick to a previous name just for no reason especially since new ppl won’t know who tf you’re talking about
@@kannakamui9584I use McCree out of habit sometimes; just because I played the game for years before it was changed. "Cree" is still a default callout for him in my head. But this is different, Venture has been nonbinary from the beginning. I would have a little more sympathy if they had come out later down the line, but the fact people are making excuses instead of just learning to use they/them pronouns is really frustrating
My favourite argument people have made against it is that it's "treating someone in a special way for no reason." like... yeah it's not a reason to treat someone differently. That's why if a cis person wanted to, I would also call them different pronouns. It's not limited to trans people. They/them isn't for NB's only. I know a bunch of cis artists who accept and sometimes even list their standard pronouns as well as they/them if people want to. It shouldn't be special treatment for some groups, it should be basic free treatment for everyone who may want it. If a cis woman wants me to use he/him, sure, why not, he/him lebians are a surprisingly common group. If a cis male drag queen wanted me to use she/her, whether in drag or not, I would do so. If any cis person wants me to use a she/they mixed set, I'll do just that. It's that simple: it's more freedom for everyone, especially those who are actively affected and hurt by these words. The only ones "losing" something to this are those who "are getting silenced", but they're only getting silenced cause they refuse to allow others that freedom to begin with. Either because of outdated beliefs on language or, much more often, plain and simply using it as an excuse cause they hate those minorities that would actually suffer less by having this freedom.
bogur despite being actually nentally insane 90%, the 10% when ur serious makes me feel really respected and included. like the way you speak about these topics (similar with awkward + quest drama) is super respectful and eloquent and makes me proud to suffer thr curse of Ra with you ❤
I love how bogur is the most aggressive passive speaking, but absolutely based man I’ve watched. He’s scolds you without yelling at the top of his lung, and constantly cooks with his opinions
I used to be like the people you were describing here. refusing to call people they/them or whatever it was they went by because "it doesnt affect me so why do i care" but that changed a few years ago when I met a few people who were a part of that community and we were playing a game and I said something insensitive (I was unaware it was insensitive because it was always just normal to me at the time) and it really hurt them badly and ever since then its just like. call people whatever makes them happy man. dont make someones life worse or make someone feel excluded because you refuse to accept them. you know what I mean? life is so much better when you can make everyone around you happy while making yourself happy too. I love all my friends equally and the last thing I want to do is hurt them because I refuse to change. Im glad I met that group of people and im so glad they helped me become better as a person. just a clarification, Im not a hateful person and I never hated people who are lbtq or anything along those lines, I just didnt want to use pronouns or anything because I was stupid and wanted to say whatever I wanted without thinking how it would hurt others. it doesnt cost you anything to call someone something they want to be called. it literally costs you nothing at all and it makes a huge difference to that person. just do it. in this case, it is a game character but the character represents a people here and disrespecting that can and will hurt people who resonate with that character.
Thank you for this. My partner is nonbinary and so are several of my closest friends, so it's very nice to see someone like you calling out people like this when most other streamers won't
Let's explore why the take of "I misgender people because of freedom of speech." is bad. TL;DR it's as bogur said, you're just being an asshole, it isn't that deep. I agree that it isn't that deep, and at the same time lets overexplain the fuck out of this and get into exactly why this is the case. To ensure we're on the same page, what _is_ freedom of speech? According to uscourts. gov, "Freedom of speech includes the right: [among other things] To use certain offensive words and phrases to convey political messages [like, in political messages as in political campaigning strategies]. Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971))" This is the idea that's being used to justify offensive behavior (I could research more into the court case specifically to comment on the philosophy on if this is justifed or okay, but im tired). However, what people fail to realize about this is that this all is to protect people _legally_ with political messages. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech." *This does not morally justify offensive behavior.* Why? Well lets get into the other half of this equation. Now, what is misgendering? To "refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not reflect their gender identity." (Oxford Languages). As to the impact it can have on transgender/nonbinary people, according to the National Institute of Health (nih .gov), "For transgender and non-binary individuals, being consistently misgendered and/or deadnamed is deeply hurtful and invalidating. It often triggers feeling of anxiety, depression, and alienation from society. Misgendering and deadnaming can even expose them to anti-trans violence and unsafe experiences. Several studies show that when you use someone’s correct pronouns and name, it drastically decreases that person’s thoughts of suicide, depression, and anxiety. This is especially true for transgender youth." Now, with all of this, what do we know? We know that legally (at least in the US, likely where anyone using Freedom of Speech to justify things is from), Freedom of Speech protects (from legal persecution) the use of offensive language in political messaging. We also know that misgendering people can have a big negative impact on trans and nonbinary people, and that gendering properly has a very positive effect on them. With this new knowledge, looking back at the original argument: "I misgender people because of freedom of speech." This reads as "I intentionally make people feel shitty because legally I'm allowed to", which just makes you an asshole. To quote Bogur 6:07, "If it makes someone happier calling them they/them, I think I'll just call them they/them because I don't give a fuck. ...If someone becomes happier by me calling them they/them, and gets miserable when I don't call them they/them, I'd rather have more people that are happy than more people that are miserable." I hope all of these sources and definitions bring us all to this same page, because it is this important, so many people use "Freedom of Speech" to justify anything and it's so fucking tone deaf, like yeah you legally _can_ be offensive but that doesn't mean you should or that there's no social/mental health consequence to your words that justify their criticism/silencing in casual spaces. I hope this helps you reflect on your beliefs, or gives you ammo to protect yourself the trans folks in your life. (And to adress the inevitible "but it's a fictional character it doesn't have feelings" from people who didn't watch the video, that's a strawman argument; no one is saying you should gender Venture properly because it'll have a negative impact on them, because Venture isn't real. People are saying you should gender Venture properly because of how doing so reflects on and affects real trans and nonbinary people. See the people in these comments or his chat citing how his and others' support makes them feel better, myself included (remember the positive effects listed earlier?), and why this whole thing is worth making a character or a video about. It's evidence that this does matter to real people.)
if you seriously get offended because someone doesn't call you they/them ur soft af and hella privileged simple as that, I'm Christian and I don't get upset and call people weirdos for not believing the same as me. everyone is different just like you respect people for not wanting to be forced into this in a game that's meant to have fun. in the next few years the way were heading now were gonna start getting offended for calling pets by there official gender or even worse, really sad to see its respect people until u have other beliefs and just call them weird "bigots" no hate btw just keeping it real.
@@cheaterphysics7344 You're comparing religious beliefs to someone's identity though. If you know who you are, and I say "No actually, you are wrong. This is what you are", that's just cringe. That's weirdo behavior. If you're a he, and everyone starts calling you she, that's gonna feel really weird. And then you say "I'm a he, stop calling me she", and I just tell you "nope you're a she. why are you so offended". Do you see the issue? You don't have "other beliefs" about other people's identity. It has nothing to do with you. You are who you are. Get it?
@@wicked5999 you can’t be born a they/them, you are born a he or she so no. No one wakes up and says they feel like a them that just doesn’t happen ur getting offended by choosing to change into a they/them and if you start forcing it on people when ur biologically a boy or girl it’s weird af. And it most definitely is similar to religious beliefs because it’s something you believe in that u even go out of ur way to “change” to a they/them and believe in different pronouns. If you can get hurt by that then Christian’s can definitely get hurt by people clowning on there reigion so why is it different?? I don’t care what people want to go by as long as they don’t force it on people and start throwing matches because of it in games that are meant to have fun and not be serious.
@@cheaterphysics7344 You are conflating sex and gender. What's on your birth certificate doesn't always correlate to your gender identity. Do a quick search, it doesn't take long to learn the basics of it. Every major health organization agrees on this, and the knowledge isn't new. This is grade school stuff. Don't go around spreading this hateful stuff. You didn't just wake up and "feel like" whatever you are, you're correct. You just ARE what you are. That's your identity. That includes for example nonbinary people as well. They are who they are. You didn't CHOOSE to identify they way YOU do. Neither does anybody else. I don't need belief to validate who YOU are as a person. You already know who you are, it has absolutely nothing to do with belief from anyone else.
As a non binary person, I just wanted to thank you. Your takes are 100% correct, and it makes me feel some semblance of hope when I see cis creators standing up for us. The world would be a better place if more people thought like you
Started watching like 5 bogur videos in a row today at like 6am. Now watching this one, as someone who just came out as nb this makes me very happy. You're very cool bogur :)
most of the points people made against using they/them pronouns never actually addressed or countered Bogur's points lmfao its like they weren't listening, based Bogur btw you're the goat
you can be criticized for any behavior you exhibit towards another person if it hurts them or makes someone upset. You aren't infallible and you should always strive to be a better person.
its not malicious, I don't do it to spite anyone its just how I prefer to refer to people. its also easier and simpler to just call people by their names.
"We are just free speeching. Isn't it just silencing people?" lmaoooo you're definitely free to be an asshole but others are also free to call you out and call you an asshole XD
Thank you so much for helping with speaking up, people will say they are doing free speech when all they do is silence and diminish something they don't understand that can easily turn to hatred. Seeing venture and other nonbinary characters being included in media with genuine thought and work put into them and not just to ask for our money, fills my heart with joy and hope for the future of the community being understood and safer to live our lives. Thank you so much it truly means the world you are willing to speak and help the broad issue💛
saw some silly discussion under one of flats recent videos, talking about the same ''drama'' and calling it 'textbook' fascism for telling others to be respectful, like where are the braincells? some people are so stubborn and really dumb.
To be fair, omnics are ACTUALLY genderless. Orisa maybe be called a she, Ram and Zen may be called he, but in all technialities they're "they" simply because they're inorganic beings.
@@gilgameshthetreasurehunter2750The point OP is trying to make is people do it when they don't think about it. Why should thinking about it increase the difficulty.
People who are actively avoiding calling Venture they and people who are insisting on using the right pronouns at all times have the same annoying energy. It‘s not that deep, Venture is a fictional character and the game has bigger issues than this
I love the "free speech" argument so much because all the people who say it are people who don't actually KNOW what free speech is in regards to Free Speech, at least according to various governments, is the ability for a citizen of that country to critique and be loud about the actions their government is taking. It has absolutely nothing to do with a one-on-one level, being asked to call someone by their pronouns isn't a "violation of free speech" because it's not even what "free speech" is about in the first place. These people just hear the words "free" and "speech" and they assume that it allows them to say what they want with no punishment or consequences
Correct pronouns? In Russia and other CIS countries she is a female, bet in Asia countries as well. So what's the correct pronouns if company don't care itself and change it to make more money ?
@@pixxur People live in these countries, if you don't know about it, and in this countries she is a female, and my question was - What's the correct pronouns? Cause in my country she is a female, in America its not, for example. Answer it, if you don't mind
sometimes I accidentally call Venture He, but that's because I'm not used to in-game characters going by pronouns other than she and he. Of course, I correct myself. If you want to be a bitch because your masculinity and femininity get so shattered by calling someone They/Them, by all means, do that, but that doesn't make you right. Do what you want don't expect any respect from others. Bogur is a W for this video and is saying something about this "drama"
I'm never calling anyone they them. Man and woman walk the earth. They them makes no sense, grammatically, logically, or realistically. It's a delusion I won't be privy to.
@@leight420 Idk what my original comment said, but calling other people npcs shows me you're probably not very bright and that you think you're very special when you're not.
Mr. Burger it makes me so happy to see someone outside the spectrum speak positively on nb people, in my experience validation is pretty hard to find so this was a nice change of pace thank you Bunger ❤😊
i agree 99.9% the only problem i have is that I'm fucking dumb. i forget to call people by their right pronouns, i mean i have friends who are trans and non-binary and i accidentally call them by their bio pronouns purely based off their voices' hell i have guy friends with feminine voices that i call she on accident. My point is that the meaning behind ones' words are what truly matter, like bogur said if you are calling people by the wrong pronouns for fun you are a dick if you are dumb like me and often forget it's different.
this is real. People make mistakes sometimes, I think a lot of trans people would much rather live in a world where people would occasionally slip up accidentally. Than a world where they get perpetually misgendered maliciously. As long as we're able to apologize and correct our mistakes it's ok
@@raptorboss6688 I agree ppl make mistakes, and a lot of the hate you see now bc it's been forced down people's throats. it's the same issue a lot of people have with parents who are super religious. People don't like being told what to do, or what to think. That being said coming from a extremely conservative person myself, I will refer to ppl by their preferred pronouns If they ask me to. I may not agree with them for a myriad of reasons but I'm not the kind of person to belittle ones mental health just to win offensive points. I'll respect shit even if I don't agree with it. Unless you try and force me to, or are a complete asshole ab it
Tbh if ur in the heat of the moment, it's probably fine to use the wrong pronouns for characters. I think outside of intense battles, you should at least try to use the right pronouns tho
I don't like the term, but I genuinely think that people who get upset over pronouns, you know, a set of WORDS, are true "snowflakes". Like in what world does it ACTUALLY affect you?
What was bro in the comments even on about "Call monkey it then since he's an animal" ??? What was that supposed to mean? That's literally the opposite of respecting pronouns and the fact that this person jumped to that is really telling
It is stupid drama. If I call Venture a her, people shouldn’t be tilted about it. I respect the irl VA pronouns, but don’t get mad at people for confusing Venture for a her.
Imagine if in a classroom, there's a bully saying mean things to some kid and that kid is upset, then the teacher comes and says, "Hey, bully get out of here." Then then bully turns to the teacher and says, "OMG, this is an echo chamber." You have the right to say mean things, but don't cry when people get angry at you ...
I'm glad I found this channel, my brain basically keyboard mashed when they showed off Venture and I'm nonbinary myself so seeing people defend Venture and by proxy other enbys is amazing. Ty for this video and your mindset overall
‼️JOIN THE DISCORD‼️
‼️Discord.com/bogcord‼️
+1000 social credit for you. You get extra bread rations this month.
If you say wrong thing, -1000 social credit, no bread rations for you.
How much money did you get from Blizz to make this video? And I wonder how much they got from their investors for their high ESG rating.
@@VladTepes-SaviorofEurope-mw4uy High ESG social credit*
Misgendering someone isn't you being an asshole, you cannot control my speech.
Good on you for trying to be a "good person" by changing your speech, but I will not.
People like yourself that hate on others having a difference of opinion is the issue, stop trying to be an appeaser then straight after being nice, to being a judgemental ASF towards people that don't wish to change their speech.
shout out to the person in chat who said "i call lara croft mommy and she's not a mother"
i'm not 100% sure what your point was but i see you
But she is mothering.
Sounds a sexual fetish. We should put more sex fetishes in the cartoon-like video games? Perhaps the next hero should be a man who identifies as a woman…. and he can utter phrases about how scary it was to get his cock cut off..
🗣️💯🔥
Using a degenerate isn't a good reference point.
@@_V.Va_it's a joke buddy relax
bogur being the most sane ow streamer random interspersed with being a lunatic talking about bingus and curses
Unironically becoming my favorite overwatch creator because he is so sane and crazy.
Exactly the type of streamer to one-trick pre-buffs Lifeweaver to GM
@@supersoaker317me too lol i got somewhat interested after watching the lw gm video but seeing his rlly based takes is rlly refreshing knowing certain streamers exist @supersoaker317
The only streamer to use "awesome sauce" while having a heartfelt talk with their community and defending trans rights.
@@TheVichugo02 real
there is literally an intelligent hamster and talking monkey and a whole race of robots who ascended their plane of thought through a godly figure and this is what people find unrealistic?
Blizzard is literally pandering to hamsters and gorillas, I am so sick of this woke bullshit 😤😤😤.
@@ratatouillepg3135 what’s next fish? I cannot STAND this whole agenda being pushed by these lybtards
@@ratatouillepg3135 the libs are trying to make us respect animals!!! so tired of the woke propaganda and their hamsters. smh.
I mean, most of them were birthed from the development and expanded discovery of science, if Im being honest Im impressed they didnt figure out the cure to disphoria.
@@xmas7o748the cure to dysphoria has already been discovered, transitioning.
All this time I thought the B in bogur was for bulgaria or big muscles but it's actually for based
😎
Based as shit. Bogur is such a legend
B for based, O for overpowered, G for gigachad, U for ultimate, and R for ripped.
no B is for bingus
B for boring. B for basic. I dont know what based about saying whats acceptable.
imagine if for the april fools update you have a random chance for venture to just shout bingus
It’s hilarious to think that people look at this game and go “I’m okay with the genetically enhanced homosexual soldier, the lesbian time traveler, sentient robots, talking monkey scientist, the flying bazooka lesbian, the space hamster, the invisible Mexican, the purple sniper, and the asexual twink but calling someone by their preferred pronouns is where I draw the line”
To be fair a lot of the people causing discourse about ventures gender also have problems with soldier being gay
And they don't care about lesbians bc they sexualize them.
The descriptions are taking me outtttt 💀💀💀 the flying bazooka lesbian, the invisible Mexican.
because its not about a game or a fantasy but about society
wait who’s asexual twink
Nah you should have seen how people were crying about soldier because their was a picture frame of his husband in the background on screen for 1 second.
"WOKE ALWAYS SHOVING GAY DOWN OUR THROAT🤬🤬🤬"
cant believe the guy that says bingus schmingus and laughs about it for 20 mins is more sane than a lot of overwatch players
anyway in a fight you should say the characters name anyway "lucio low" instead of "he's low" or "venture low" instead of "they are low" because both is equally confusing nobody knows who you mean with "he" or "they"
this
yeah and callouts could even call venture “mole” to shave off the extra syllable, similar to “ball”
@@sforzando would dig dug work for the same purpose?
@@TheDivineSystem 2 syllables but you dont need to think abt dig dug, you DO need to think about "venture" so valid callout
Right?! Like, we never used pronouns for callouts anyways, you always say the Hero's name. That's a stupid excuse to be ignorant or transphobic.
In my mother tongue a neutral pronoun doesn't really exist. I catch myself calling venture 'she' by accident because im not used to 'they/them' and force myself to correct it. Venture having they/them pronouns really helps me getting used to using it and in turn improves my english skills and probably makes me fuck up less if i ever meet people using those pronouns in real life.
This is so great to read. I really appreciate you seeing it that way.
Ure such a green flag omg
Bro who are you pandering to you're not a streamer that will be criticized by 1000 lazy with nothing better to do. A fictional character won't get her feelings hurt and nobody will hear you say she. Just say what's natural forcing yourself to use a wack pronoun is just pandering for the sake of internet brownie points do you can post a comment like this one.
@@g_vostsingular they/them is NOT new lmao
"someone dropped their phone, i hope i can get it back to them!". i don't know any sane person that says "someone dropped his or her phone, i hope i can get it back to him or her." like you genuinely sound nutty if you talk like that
@@g_vost”to each their own.” “a store might need a new manager and they will need to have some experience to get the job.” “find a babysitter who can prove they are responsible and certified in cpr.” “an employee will not do a good job if they don’t have enough experience.” if someone breaks something and you saw it, you know it’s THEIR problem and not yours. these all make perfect sense. The pronoun "they" can be used as a singular pronoun when it is used to refer to a person whose sex is not known or specified. because English does not have a common-gender, or gender neutral, third person singular personal pronoun, writers and speakers often use they. It is a well-established use. so it actually has been around a while, in fact the use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.
It's insane that people will call robots he/him or she/her, but then can't call a person they/them.
I disagree, giving something that has no gender he/she pronouns is a way to familiarize or personify something that clearly has no affiliation to either. I don’t think it’s insane, it’s just human nature. While someone who identifies as they/them isn’t as clear cut as a robot, unless they establish it first. I see what you’re getting at, just maybe not the best example in this instance.
Soon people will get offended for calling a robot - human or a human - robot, it's just a never ending cycle that isn't going to end. The problem is when people try and force others to call them these many different pronouns and if they don't then they get cancelled or loose their jobs or are shamed.
Just call someone by there names, that's why they exist they have a purpose and meaningful existence in the world.
Pronouns exist for others to describe the world around them as they see it from their perception.
Zenyatta is just Zenyatta or Zen for short, no need to complicate things more then they need to be.
@@IdLestat-jq2cino, pronouns exist because it's uncomfortable to refer to the same thing multiple sentences in a row. I get what you're going for, but the word "you" counts as a pronoun too. Same as "I"
Why not establish a new pronoun? They is plural, that's why it sounds so utterly ridiculous when referring to a single person.
@@zendakkthe context of the sentence makes singular and plural “they” very easy to distinguish.
Did you know that there are 430 definitions of the word “set”? We are able to use those without our heads exploding, so we should be able to handle a word having 2.
winston ending the video with "a better world is possible today" really drives the point home.
I don’t think lgbt has been making the world a better place at all…
@@meat. neither you but here we are....
@@meat. uhm actually 🤓i don't think lgbt has been making the world a better place at all...
@@meat. bro a gay dude litterally invented the computer
@@meat. I mean the movement has allowed countless people to exist without being murdered for how they identify... i think a small vocabulary change in return for literal saved lives definitely makes the world a better place
Bogur being based, thats a free spot on my bingo card
wrong
shut@@ex-qy4xm
@@ex-qy4xm womp womp
There is nothing based about this at all!! please get real.
@@Spicygo4tCh33se it's always the dudes with goku pfp 💀
The people saying "its just my opinion" somehow expecting that means their opinion deserves to be respected are idiots. I'm not going to respect an opinion that is inherently disrespectful of others. If I were to do so that would make me disrespectful, and no better than the people saying those things in the first place.
What’s funny is that it tends to be also the same people who will get offended when u inflict something that matters to them in their life. It’s just dumb
@@bobbob9867 Fr, its the ultimate hypocrisy.
An opinion never demands respect, its a viewpoint individual of others. It's not designed to be respected, that comes down to the individual and their response. An opinion that serves to destroy can still be respected, not in a agreeable manner, but one that enables meaningful conversation. Thats how all debates work. A disagreement that can be percieved as disrespectful but can produce extremely insightful conversations. You dont have to agree with what I say, but consider, what is gained from ignoring a disrespectful opinion, or debating it.
Yeah get off your high horse buddy, just cus you think you’re in the right, doesn’t make you.
@@leo_wentzel Oh look at you, you added so much didnt you. If you dont have anything informative or insightful to say in response to an actual attempt of genuine discussion, you can dismiss yourself. Last time I called, I didnt say I was right, I said lets talk.
Bogur, this video as a non-binary person means an incredible amount to me. Opening up this conversation is incredibly important, and your words made me feel extraordinarily validated, and I respect you to a huge degree because of that. A single content creator has never made me more proud of who I am, so thank you, Bogur.
W
We are here for you and support you ❤
yessssss, so glad for you
W
bffr like you are some main character “it’s me against the world! 🤓”type shit😭💀💀
I love seeing people in this community argue this as if Overwatch isn’t the gayest-coded fps even without canonly lgbt characters
^^^ omfg fr
The percent of queer individuals in the complete playerbase is most definitely higher than any other fps game
@@Jervenshmine probably full of closeted homophobes too 😭
What do you mean without canon LGBTQ characters? Tracer is a Lesbian, Pharah is bi or lesbian, I think Baptiste is either bi or gay, Soldier is gay, etc etc
@@Eadwulf_Skald I think he meant that even if there weren't lgbt characters it's gay coded
@@Jervenshmine That's hard to say because their queer identities influence that perception. Taking that away, I'm not sure if the vibe would be even remotely the same.
The queerness goes into the skins, the voice lines, emotes, etc. So idk.
I no idea Bogor was THIS based.
Based and woke at the same time. Love to see it.
(in jack sparrow voice) It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide@@Lukewarm618
According to google... there are 144 languages that DONT have gendered pronouns. SAYING "they/them" shouldn't be hard for anyone.
There’s 7000 spoken and signed languages
I honestly wonder how they're going to talk about Venture in any latin language, like my native language, portuguese. There are contexts in wich we use a non-binary pronoun, but it's the same as the male one. As in we use the male pronouns as also non-binary
@@Anonymous-lv4di Idk actually. I've seen some nb people from languages that only have gendered pronouns use a different letter, like Elle instead of Ella or Ello.
It's a choice.
@@_V.Va_ Wdym
Bold of bogur to assume OW2 players have respect for black people or women. The amount of slurs I've been called this season alone is crazy
True but it’s a lot better then most games like it like csgo, cod, etc. and I think that’s what’s he’s trying to get at
@@pcn545 I think csgo was the only time I ever had to leave a lobby because of how bad the language was. It was abhorrent
@@pcn545Doesnt make it good
@@supersoaker317 Oh man and In east asia as well. So much slurs but for asian. When playing I got costantly bitched for being Taiwanese.
Next time you get cussed at you should CAST THE CURSE OF RA ON THEM
Can't wait for Venture's VA to join the Zestywatch vids 🥰
not even based; just basic respect for other people. W schmunguss nation
Sry, I’ve got a basic understanding of biology.
@@SoggySubwhich doesnt matter here because advanced biology is a thing, as is advanced physics and advanced mathematics
dont be transphobic, because its stupid and incorrect :)
@@SoggySubyou are not real
@@yvesthursday and neither are non binary people. They’ve got a penis or they don’t. It’s not that difficult to find out, just look below your waist, if you can even do that.
Sadly a character ingame can't have feelings
Common Bogur W. Respecting others and doing the small things that make others happy.
It’s so funny from the guy who said that Bogur should be calling Winston “it”, as if he isn’t a male sentient being. I don’t classify Winston as a thing tbh, just like how I talk about my dogs using she/her 💀
not calling venture by their preferred pronouns bc it's a fictional character is such a stupid argument... Real people see that you misgender venture and that's the entire point. It shows them that you do not respect their identity and it normalizes misgendering. It's not hard to be kind :/ Atleast I can now quickly tell which streamers aren't worth watching :))
It definitely hurt a little when I heard one of my favorite streamers not say there preferred pronouns on purpose but. Weeds are weeds they'll be pulled out and left in the dust.
If you feel the need to get upset over a streamer not respecting a fictional character s pronoun you need to go outside. There is literally thousands of bigger issues
@@ChimpRevolutionYou're getting upset over people getting upset that streamers are purposefully misgendering a fictional character. Why aren't you out there solving world peace? and fix the whole world hunger thing while you're at it.
@@ChimpRevolution your the problem
@@ChimpRevolution streamers are strangers i do not know their values unless they tell me and through their actions. If they can't even respect a fictional characters identity it's indicative of what they think about real people with that identity. I want everyone to feel welcome and safe and if you can achieve that by literally typing a few letters and *refuse* to that's weirdo behavior and not worth my time
8:00 "nothing bad happens if you call somebody they/them"
Come on, the most horrific thing happens: fragile masculinity and egos get shattered to pieces the moment a mf says they/them 😂
Respecting anyone is the most masculine and feminine thing you can do. Being a dickhead doesn't make you either of those things. Respect isn't earned, but should be a given and kept from the start by maintaining it.
Is that not just as valid as someone being upset that they've been mis-gendered? What makes it fair to say that someone can't be offended that they're being called they/them when their preferred pronouns don't align with that? /gen
@@ElusiveTy But if you call someone they/them and they correct you then you call them what they prefer. If you call someone a she/her and they prefer they/them then you use that instead. It is not hard, people just want to be mad. The op was just saying that if you call them by their preferred pronouns bigots get mad for no reason.
@@ElusiveTythey/them is a gender neutral term, meaning it inherently lacks any specific gender when used. This means it can be used to refer to a group of multiple people, to someone not on the binary spectrum of genders, or to someone who’s gender you don’t know at the moment. Usually you’d refer to someone with they/them if you don’t know yet and are talking to someone else about that person.
Dumbest take I've seen in a while. Respect someone off rip and watch how easily you get your asshole pulled apart by shitty people out there.@@Lukewarm618
My ass did not know Venture goes by they/them, I will refer to them with those pronouns now, thank you mister bingus.
I don’t know how you missed it bc it was all over the promo material, but you are so incredibly based for just adapting like that. W
@@maxboyden5209 I didnt consume any of the promo material, I basically only watched stuff about them on youtube before playing Venture
@@maxboyden5209 Tbf when i started playing them like a week ago i had no idea either. Did not check the promo stuff bc i wasn't playing. I said something about them in teamchat and said she, got corrected and that's how i found out lmfao. Lot of people don't care for the promo stuff or the game in general anymore so it's easy to miss that way.
Hey, I just wanted to say, as a non-binary person, I greatly appreciate all you've said in this video. It really touched me, and I am so grateful for you. Especially your comment about how a lot of us struggle actually living as our true selves in a society dead-set on silencing us. I really appreciate that, especially as someone who legally cannot be recognised as who I am. Your support, and your words are a comfort, and I am incredibly grateful for that.
And also, as an aspiring teacher who's working on their Masters right now, you are totally correct! They/them is a valid English third person pronoun, which, fun fact, has existed longer than the possessive "its" has! English is a funny language, where most extra pronouns got "dropped" in more modern times due to everybody's fear of being rude (which is why we no longer use thee/thou), but they/them remained! The "you" we have today is, technically, younger than "they"! That's a fun little fact for y'all :) They has been used as a neuter third person pronoun for a While, and is older than the neuter modern "it". Modern English is a rather new language, all things considered, especially as its grammar kept changing quite rapidly with the influx of different influences.
And if anyone wants to argue that it ISN'T a valid third person neuter pronoun...please actually use linguist arguments, and not your basic High School or Quick Google Search knowledge. 'Cos, otherwise, I'm just going to trust the myriad of professors I know who has made it their lives work to understand the history of the English Language :)
11:01 Venture may not have feelings but as a nonbinary person _I_ do. Treating them with respect by trying to use the correct pronouns is affirming my existence and actively disrespecting them is neglecting/dismissing my existence. I can’t speak for others but that’s my two cents
Edit: I literally never use the phrase “two cents” wth
Nonbinary people are real, but I think we can all agree that australian people are a myth
@@wicked5999 nonono Australian people are real I got two Australian friends. You wanna who are myths? British people /j They haunt my nightmares
@@apersoncalledpup_ b-b-b-BRITISH PEOPLE?!?! 😰
@@Jervenshmine 😰😰😰😰 YEA IM SO GLAD THEY ARE ONLY MYTHS
*Brit has entered the chat*
Literally this. There's no excuse to not respect another person's identity. It's called being a human being. If the concept of other people being different from you is that hard of an idea to grasp, then you need to learn basic empathy. Everyone is beautiful and worthy of being given love.
I would put it slightly differently, it's not about respecting the identity but the person, so even if you don't respect the identity you still give them the dignity of using their preferred pronouns, even if you don't believe in it.
No it's not, it's asking me to speak in a weird un-natural way, and getting mad if people refer to you as a gender. If I told you to refer to me as Ze/Zim and got mad anytime you refered to me as anything but Ze/Zim, you'd probably get annoyed af and want me to fuck off.
Also I'm only in my 20's, it's not like I'm a geriatric senile old man, and I'm genuinely confused AF with the whole entire alphabet of things. Some people want to have gay sex or wear dresses etc, they have free will, do whatever rocks your boat. But genuinely wtf is a non-binary? How can you not identify with a gender? Wtf even is a "gender" in this context, being a dude or chick doesn't mean anything as to what you can enjoy doing or dress like or anything.
I can't wrap my head around any of this shit no matter how much I try to understand, at least with most stuff I disagree with I can see and understand the logic of the people who disagree with me, but this shit is just baffling.
The battle is not with people, but their perception of reality. You can love. person, but dislike what they do, are believe to be. I agree everyone should be loved, but my experience of reality tells me that the things Ive been through, are what make me. Feelings are flimsy, good indicators, but horrible tools for navigation. If you base yourself with your feelings, I promise you, that wont be you. The notion of a persons identity, is one made from expiriance. If you dislike those who dislike other people for their identity, that isnt fair. They have as much of a valid voice as yours, meaning their opinions have as much weight as yours. Telling them their wrong wont fix it, but having a formal discussion or debate will give both of you that oppurtunity to understand and even be convinced of the other view. No garuntees though.
@@lukasg4807 it's not for you to understand, you just have to respect. Are you confused? Don't know about the topic? You're in your 20's, you clearly have Internet connection. Instead of writting an essay on how "ze/zim" want to get called, you could have just googled shit. "WHATS A NONBINARY????" Ask fucking Alexa, ask ChatGPT, just write that on any search bar and educate yourself with people who can teach you. Since you just don't want to, make it be like rocket science: you don't understand it too, then just accept it
@@lukasg4807 my guy I think you explained nonbinary yourself lmao. Gender is entirely a construct, dresses were worn by men, then woman. It may change back but right now its a "female" thing. nonbinary is just saying I am a person, I don't really feel like a woman or a man im just gonna vibe as myself.
If you believe gender isn't real and that you can do whatever you want then your already a ally of nonbinary people as thats exactly what it is. Rejecting gender as you don't feel its real is baised. If peeps say they are a guy or girl and that box helps them know who they are then good on them, but some peeps don't fit into ether box and thats alright.
"I think purposefully misgendering people for the sake of free speech is just you being an asshole." Well said bogur.
No
Forcing people to play along with a delusion is being an asshole.
Respect is earned.
@@SomethingDiabolical-lw5nxNo one wants your respect tubs
But force people to refer to another person something they're not it's not disrespectful?
Everyone in these replies are right god is a transgender gay black woman and her son Jesus is a gay homeless man
most based and respectful chat. its crazy to me how people will misgender dogs and correct themselves once the owner tells them the correct pronouns to use but when it’s a human these people decide to be completely horrible about it or play dumb. by the way you are entitled to an opinion but when that opinion is harmful or rude, it is not exempt from criticism. You have a controversial and objectively bad opinion so you will be called out on it…. simple as that
the "free speech" argument always makes me laugh. like sure, you can SAY whatever you want. that doesn't mean you won't get called out for being a terrible bigot, and streamers are allowed to ban you from their personal chat 🤷🏻♀️
It also makes me laugh that they cry about free speech while actively discouraging others free speech because it doesn't fit their prerogative. They can't even support their own argument with their own logic.
Free speech does NOT free you from the consequences. You can say whatever you want, and you wont be killed for it, but there can be consequences
I personally don't mind saying they/them for the character and supporting non binary people in that way, but I also think it is wrong to force people to see things the same way that I do in that regard. Not using they them for a character isn't disrespectful to the character that isnt real and you aren't a disrespectful person by not doing so. Not supporting the ideal shouldn't be considered disrespectful either and that is a choice everyone deserves.
@@megamecha100that’s completely fair, but again, while you have the right to disagree, so does everyone else have the right to call you out. obviously venture isn’t real, they aren’t going to get upset if you misgender them, but it’s not about venture, it’s about what venture represents, and in my opinion, going against that ideal is inherently at least a little disrespectful, as you’re denying someone a fairly large part of their identity.
@@defaultdan7923 merely not aligning with an ideal should not be considered disrespectful, since that would mean you would be disrespectful to disagree with anything that people have a strong attachment to and you would be forced to switch sides based on that. I think in this case going against the rules set by bogur while in his chat would be disrespectful to him
All freedom of speech means is that you can’t be arrested for words or silenced by the government. It doesn’t mean you won’t face consequences for being an ass
i am nonbinary and thanks for just being normal about it, i hope this is a step towards people being more accepting.
Bro being non binary isn't some insane thing you're born with. You decided to be non binary just as easily as you can decide not to be. Why say these things like you're just being absolutely disregarded based off of things that are very face value and aren't genetically alterable.
@@Sarcassholeoh yeah cause people choose to become a minority that get hate for no reason do you think people choose to be in danger just to have a label so youre correct non binary isnt something insane people get born with but just something people get born with
@@Sarcassholewomp womp
@Sarcasshole it’s not a choice :P thanks though
@@Sarcasshole Gender is also not something you're born with, only your genitals are, and objectively, they only really serve a reproductive function and nothing else.
What society has come to relate to genitals, namely sex and gender, are 100% sociological inventions that are made to try and force people into behavioral patterns.
Someone not wanting to fit into those behavioral patterns and choosing language (another human invention that is ever and constantly changing) to communicate it to their circles is perfectly normal and indicates healthy self-awareness.
The thing about "they/them" is that is by far the easiest adjustment to make of all the pronouns. We already use they/them all the time given context so using it a little more often is easy it just takes a little time doing it to adjust. It's nothing like say being told you gotta say xer or something else thats newer.
Its prolly the same people who refuse to say Cassidy instead of Mccree but only because they think they're going against the libs or something not because they're just so used to the name Mccree over Cassidy.
Venture might be not "a real person", however there are real non-binary people who would be very happy to hear others being understanding and respectful towards Venture. It is just so so great to see ppl actually respecting someone like them.
Like the VA
Non binary ain't a real thing and all of yall are insane
Its all horse shit. Theres only men and woman. Quit feeding into the delusions
@@ChimpRevolution 1. Non binary people exist and it is a real thing.
2. Even if it didn't exist, Venture is a fictional character so even if it was a fictional thing, it could exist in a fictional world anyways if the creators chose to, which they have.
I don't see why it's so hard to literally use two words that you unknowingly use all the time anyways. You don't even have to do that, just use their name it's so simple my god.
It’s like calling a fictional character a racial slur. Yeah, you’re not directly insulting a real person but you’re telling real people what you actually think about them.
I just wanted to say thank you bogur. I'm a trans/nonbinary person and seeing venture being added to the game makes me feel seen and apart of something. I've been physically and verbally assaulted many times for my identity. Venture not only makes us feel included but also brings awareness to people like me.
The sad truth is trans/nonbinary people are some much more likely to be raped, assaulted, and murdered then cis people for just trying to live their life and characters like this help us with bring awareness to this problem but also shows just how much more we have to go to truly be accepted. It's hard and painful. I've cried myself to sleep many times wishing I was "normal." I've thought of ending my life many times. People that can't accept this simple idea don't see people like us as people. We are less than them. We are weird and freaks.
Character like venture are important to my community and myself! It let's us have a chance to be seen and heard.
I would also like to counter argue some of the "argument" that I see about people like me.
1.) "freedom of speech"
Sure, you can midgender people all you want BUT that doesn't mean you're free from the consequences of that action. People will call you out on it. People will think you're rude and an asshole. If you can't accept that then maybe don't midgender people/characters.
2.) "it's just a video game character"
Well technically yes it! You're so smart. The way you view video game characters tho reflect how you view the world around you. If you're not afraid to midgender them what's to stop you from midgendering me or someone else. This does effect people like me not only does it normalize people like us but it also shows we are people that deserve respect just like everyone else.
3. "They isn't a singular pronoun"
Well, you're just wrong. They has been used as a singular pronoun for hundreds of years. Simply Google it. Even if it wasn't language changes and evolved with the people that speak it. It has since the beginning of people. Just because you "don't agree with it" doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or will happen.
4. "This is new and woke bullshit"
Again this isn't a new concept. It has been around since people have been. I would love to educate you but sometimes you have to do work yourself. Ignorance can only be an excuse for so long.
I'm a real person with thoughts, emotions, desires, and faults just like everyone else. If I i can respect you, you can respect me wanting to be called they/them or any other pronoun I choose. My life isn't an issues. My existence isn't a problem. My need to exist isn't a political argument. I am a human. I need to breath sleep and eat just like you. If you can't accept a tiny thing I i would like to be called then I'm not the problem. You are.
I'm rambled on enough i think. I appreciate anyone who took the time to read all of this. Bogur i just want you to know, You have made me truly feel safe in a community. That is very rare to find these days. I appreciate it. Also to the people that are truly trying to understand and learn. Thank you. We do appreciate that. If you slip up sometimes, it's okay we know you're trying and that's all that matters.
Have a wonderful night or day. Again thank you to whoever got this far. I appreciate you.
Ps. I did write this at 4 in the morning so apologies if it a bit rambly and a mess. I just wanted to express my feelings.
based
Based²
I feel sad that these completely unreasonable weird thing of seeing queer people as less is still existing, i cant get in in my mind, its just useless and easy to not do. I hope u have a happy live with how u are and keep in mind that a very very big part of humanity stands behind u and sees no fucking problem with it, the dumb guys are just the loudest, sadly.
based³
Unthathomobly based
This is now my favorite Bogur video.
extremely refreshing take coming from someone not under the lgbt+ umbrella thank you bogur for championing basic respect. big love from one of your lesbo subs for supporting my nb fam during a time people are a lil extra hellbent on invalidating their experiences and identities. i would be surprised if anyone really expected differently from you on this topic with how effortlessly respectful and fun your streams with the zesties are but believe me its still very nice to hear it regardless 💞
The disparity between watching some of dafran or noobhunter's/etc content and seeing people's general vibe in comments/chat there, and the absolutely based comments and chat of bogur's, flat's, ml7's and eskay's is so relieving, from how it looked in the other two I was beginning to think that the OW community really wasn't as welcoming as I originally viewed it as, but this and the rest's have restored my faith. As loud as the bigots may be I will continue to be happy with the fact that for every 1 of them there is so many more welcoming players :D
Thank you so much for giving this conversation it's own dedicated video, love your content and vibe, wish I had come across your content earlier and I definitely think I'll be returning for more of your wisdom and goofyness :3, once again thank you and have a great day :D
Was defrans chat that bad? Like, I don’t watch the dude so idk. What kind of stuff was going down there? I really appreciated bogur, flats, super, etc being normal dudes about too honesty
@@Sensei_gojo Was mostly a bunch of people going "yeah dafran is right, its for the comms definitely saying they is confusing fr" and other dumb takes like that, p much a bunch of excuses to misgender.
Because we typically identify someone's pronouns by their appearance and voice, learning to use the right ones for someone can be difficult. We shouldn't hound people who fail to do so.
But yeah, if it's done intentionally (more specifically to real people), it's quite deserved.
yeah, there is a difference between accidentaly calling venture her and just putting an empashis when you say HER in all caps. one was a mistake, the other is being an asshole
@@alphaluc1008 Agreed
@@alphaluc1008I mean tbh you're playing a game with a fictional character if someone is rage baiting just ignore them its really not a big deal
Nah, he and she is the only reality I live in. They them makes no sense man XD i'm sorry for you all but I'm not falling back into any delusion.
@@mjodreaper8481you can’t fall back into one if you’ve never left. If you can’t show respect because you live in the 1800s just call them by their name then
They/Them pronouns used as a singular pronoun has been widely accepted by esteemed universities since 2015 and there's even been proof that it has been used as a singular pronoun as far back as 1375. Before someone comments "Oh yeah those liberal sissy colleges," I would like you to know that the Santa Clara University is a private Christian University that has recognized the use of They/Them pronouns as well and even has a great reference guide on why you SHOULD consider using it formally. They/Them pronouns are NOT new, ya'll just didn't care until you could use it to further your hatred. Thanks for coming to my TED talk, stay educated and stay safe!
Good to know. I will not be implementing this knowledge into my everyday life.
@_V.Va_ these people are batshit insane
yes ur right, it was used as a singular pronoun when you were speaking of someone you didn't know there gender. there are only 2 genders and once science can somehow morph you into a they/them don't act like its normal and weird for not using them.
@@_V.Va_ahh... Classic willful ignorance. Adorable.
i dont know why but it is fucking hysterical to me calling random shit "maxxing"
"guys i think i am diemaxxing here" and im just dying laughing
the moral of the story is its so easy to just be nice and chill and cool
The issue is so much worse in countries that dont have a official option for neutral pronouns. Like in brazilian portuguese (from where im from) where officially there's only "ele" (he) and "ela" (she), the non binary community uses "elu" for "they" but majority of ppl in the country makes fun of it or dont even use the term.
I envy countries that atleast have a option, and it is absurd that this kind of basic thing is a big issue, it is just basic respect
yeah, in Spanish everything is very gendered so whenever I have to refer to my nonbinary friend, I have to use the male pronouns (I asked them first on which they prefer in Spanish). I've heard about using "Elle" or Ellx for the equivalent of they/them but the x one seems annoying to use. I haven't seen what pronouns spanish Overwatch uses for Venture and I'm a little nervous if they use the feminine pronouns.
I’m from Korea and we have no gendered pronouns. The ones that exist are strictly literary/translation lingo. When we refer to someone in a sentence, there is no way to know their gender unless we specifically say “that person is a man/woman.”
i wish more languages worked like that@@bagelized
I don't get it. I thought Brazil has a huge trans community so how is this too much for them?
@@Leo-gk4qw Adding to this, in Korean there are soooo many gender neutral names. Some are more traditionally male/female however many modern names nobody would bat an eye if it were applied to men OR women. I noticed that other countries tend to be MUCH more strict with that and I wish it wasn’t. Who cares if a boy is Elizabeth? I find it sad actually.
There are people who legit refer to me using my online name despite them knowing my real one and then they straight up refuse to respect someone's pronouns.
I just started watching a few months ago and you make me so happy im so thankful for people like you
Venture is a huge litmus test on who to avoid lmfao
The amount of people in the community using the 'it'll confuse callouts' excuse to avoid using they/them pronouns is wild. Most the time i call out i just say the characters name instead of the pronouns because there'll be multiple he's/she's on the team so why can't people just say 'ventures one'? I've literally seen people in Dafran's comment section captalise using SHE and HER and call people mentally ill for using the correct pronouns. The community is cooked.
Real
me when i say "he's low" fighting an all male team has the same issue. These people have such shit arguements
All ppl who think there are more than 2 genders are cooked and gone.
...
It’s mad weird because Fr like if you’re too fucking emotional and egotistical to use they or them just call them by the damn name like “rein. Venture. Mercy”
i literally rarely hear pronouns in callouts, overwatch comms almost always utilize names and abilities. ppl r actually just pretending they use pronouns in their callouts just to have smthn to be upset about
dude i love bogur so much, he’s such a chill person and it’s so refreshing
I guess the problem arrives at the fact that people don't want to feel bad for misgendering people after growing up using a language where gendered pronouns have been the norm.
But like.
Nonbinary people are not going to cancel you for accidentally misgendering them. As long as it's not malicious and you eventually learn to refer them by correct pronouns you're good.
And if they do cancel you, did it happen in Twitter, perchance?
Overwatch is a game with:
-Talking gorillas
-A hyper-intelligent hamster who also pilots a mech
-Not one, but two characters who can pull out a pocket black hole at any time
-A cyborg ninja who can use a simple sword to deflect not only the aforementioned black holes, but also a literal wave of fire (+ a bunch of other bullshit)
-Whatever the fuck is going on with the Shimadas + Kiriko ("advanced tech" my ass, that's pure magic)
-A French lady who became bluish purple because "her heartbeat was slowed down" (because that's how human anatomy works)
-The entire concept of the IRIS
-And so much more...
But a person using they/them is where "it stops making sense".
I think it's safe to say, all the people complaining about this are either below the age of 13 or man-children who never matured past 12.
It's a bit more nuanced than that because it's a real life political issue. Gamers have long been defensive of anything political entering gaming, so it's unsurprising. You've listed perfect examples of things that are outlandish in Overwatch but I think that's the point - they are outlandish, they don't exist in real life. Non-binary people DO exist and ARE very real, which is I think what makes it more of a controversial thing, not that I'm saying it should be just that I think that's why it is.
@@ElusiveTyit’s funny you say gamers don’t want politics when most of the biggest game franchises are popular because of their nuanced political stories lmao. Not saying you’re wrong btw, as I’ve seen a lot of right wing gamers say dumb shit like “we don’t want politics in video games” while praising fallout new Vegas. Just goes to show the media literacy of people who are being assholes to be assholes
People only care because its a highly political and moral issue today. It's not so much about problems with characters not aligning with reality specifically. No one questions "talking gorillas" for example, everyone knows that to not be true or reflecting real life, anyone contesting that would be crazy. Venture being a they/them isn't something where there is a vast consensus and agreeance on, so of course, controversy follows.
@@browut644 Political themed stories and modern day politics are two very different things ya little dishonest dandy.
Along with obnoxious pandering for ESG and if you look at what ESG is that in itself is turning a game into a political product. How would you feel if you found out all the money you spend was going to fund trumps campaign and push some crazy AMERICA NUMBER ONE! CHRISTIANITY YAY propaganda bullshit? The very fact you believe you gotta be right wing to want this shit out of games tells me that you're politically captured.
as a nonbinary teen, this whole situations been pretty disheartening. but seeing streamers and even just random people defend venture makes me so happy, because i really see myself in venture. weve got so many things in common, and im so happy to finally have a character i can relate to
You'll grow out of it kiddo, don't worry.
@@Roflcrabs well, if i do, you'll be the first to know lol
When I first started OW i thought it was a bit odd that Orisa and Echo went by she/her and Zen and Bastion went by he/him since they're robots. but now my headcanon is that theyre trans (non-binary to female/male) and they chose these pronouns for themselves bc thats what they preferred
As far as I know, even overwatch devs don’t call echo she/her. They use they/them for echo.
I love that by the end of the conversation bogur got to the root of most of the hate, misogyny. It's a lot of the same people who were mad with female mcs and get super pissed anytime they are perceived feminine. Thank you Bogur, I didn't get recommended any of your vids til the drama started but you've earned a sub from me for being a kind respectful person and for playing the monkey character!
Bogur, the guy who has a Cyber Security degree understands this WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than lawyers and some people related to social science in my country.
This world sometimes is though, we do not need conservatives that make it harder just because of "their" opinions, the bible, or just pure ignorance/dogmatism.
Try to see a middle ground with everyone, you are just outright denying their beliefs by saying "we don't need them" that makes you no different from them.
Both parties should always have a civil conversation before concluding, based on nothing, that the other party is just evil for not accepting their beliefs.
Not all conservatives are bad and not all are good, same goes for leftists.
Just don't be the person you don't want to become, and don't generalize people.
@@aleksandarjevtic5802 dumbest string of words ive ever read. "listen guys, we cant be mean to the people who are pushing back on self expression that literally does nothing to them because........... they also have feelings! because they are also humans! i am very smart!" lmao
The whole situation just weeds out all the immature babies in the ow community. People who purposefully misgender them with the “SHE looks so fun” are just telling on themselves and admitting how badly they want attention lmao
They always put a ! At the end of there sentence it's so hive mindish lmao. They r trying to rage bait sooooo hard
Are we really surprised though they’re the same ppl who cried about having to call a character Cassidy over “mccree “
@@kannakamui9584Wait wtf there are actually people pissed about that? I just hear people call him McRee smtimes but i never knew people are raging about that lmao
@@ChrisChross545 idk lol. No one is raging about it just because it was said weird ass. It’s just shocking how ppl want to stick to a previous name just for no reason especially since new ppl won’t know who tf you’re talking about
@@kannakamui9584I use McCree out of habit sometimes; just because I played the game for years before it was changed. "Cree" is still a default callout for him in my head.
But this is different, Venture has been nonbinary from the beginning. I would have a little more sympathy if they had come out later down the line, but the fact people are making excuses instead of just learning to use they/them pronouns is really frustrating
My favourite argument people have made against it is that it's "treating someone in a special way for no reason." like... yeah it's not a reason to treat someone differently. That's why if a cis person wanted to, I would also call them different pronouns. It's not limited to trans people. They/them isn't for NB's only. I know a bunch of cis artists who accept and sometimes even list their standard pronouns as well as they/them if people want to. It shouldn't be special treatment for some groups, it should be basic free treatment for everyone who may want it.
If a cis woman wants me to use he/him, sure, why not, he/him lebians are a surprisingly common group. If a cis male drag queen wanted me to use she/her, whether in drag or not, I would do so. If any cis person wants me to use a she/they mixed set, I'll do just that. It's that simple: it's more freedom for everyone, especially those who are actively affected and hurt by these words.
The only ones "losing" something to this are those who "are getting silenced", but they're only getting silenced cause they refuse to allow others that freedom to begin with. Either because of outdated beliefs on language or, much more often, plain and simply using it as an excuse cause they hate those minorities that would actually suffer less by having this freedom.
Cis is a slur to a large number of people yet you use it like crazy. Be more tolerant please.
bogur despite being actually nentally insane 90%, the 10% when ur serious makes me feel really respected and included. like the way you speak about these topics (similar with awkward + quest drama) is super respectful and eloquent and makes me proud to suffer thr curse of Ra with you ❤
I love how bogur is the most aggressive passive speaking, but absolutely based man I’ve watched. He’s scolds you without yelling at the top of his lung, and constantly cooks with his opinions
I used to be like the people you were describing here. refusing to call people they/them or whatever it was they went by because "it doesnt affect me so why do i care" but that changed a few years ago when I met a few people who were a part of that community and we were playing a game and I said something insensitive (I was unaware it was insensitive because it was always just normal to me at the time) and it really hurt them badly and ever since then its just like. call people whatever makes them happy man. dont make someones life worse or make someone feel excluded because you refuse to accept them. you know what I mean? life is so much better when you can make everyone around you happy while making yourself happy too. I love all my friends equally and the last thing I want to do is hurt them because I refuse to change. Im glad I met that group of people and im so glad they helped me become better as a person.
just a clarification, Im not a hateful person and I never hated people who are lbtq or anything along those lines, I just didnt want to use pronouns or anything because I was stupid and wanted to say whatever I wanted without thinking how it would hurt others.
it doesnt cost you anything to call someone something they want to be called. it literally costs you nothing at all and it makes a huge difference to that person. just do it. in this case, it is a game character but the character represents a people here and disrespecting that can and will hurt people who resonate with that character.
"why dont you call monkey an it"
what was bro cooking 😭😭
Thank you for this. My partner is nonbinary and so are several of my closest friends, so it's very nice to see someone like you calling out people like this when most other streamers won't
10:44 "A better world is possible today" - Winston
As a nonbinary person i couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you bogur
Nobody specifically wanted Bogur as an Ally. But we all needed him
Let's explore why the take of "I misgender people because of freedom of speech." is bad. TL;DR it's as bogur said, you're just being an asshole, it isn't that deep. I agree that it isn't that deep, and at the same time lets overexplain the fuck out of this and get into exactly why this is the case.
To ensure we're on the same page, what _is_ freedom of speech?
According to uscourts. gov, "Freedom of speech includes the right: [among other things] To use certain offensive words and phrases to convey political messages [like, in political messages as in political campaigning strategies]. Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971))" This is the idea that's being used to justify offensive behavior (I could research more into the court case specifically to comment on the philosophy on if this is justifed or okay, but im tired).
However, what people fail to realize about this is that this all is to protect people _legally_ with political messages. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech." *This does not morally justify offensive behavior.* Why? Well lets get into the other half of this equation.
Now, what is misgendering?
To "refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not reflect their gender identity." (Oxford Languages).
As to the impact it can have on transgender/nonbinary people, according to the National Institute of Health (nih .gov), "For transgender and non-binary individuals, being consistently misgendered and/or deadnamed is deeply hurtful and invalidating. It often triggers feeling of anxiety, depression, and alienation from society. Misgendering and deadnaming can even expose them to anti-trans violence and unsafe experiences. Several studies show that when you use someone’s correct pronouns and name, it drastically decreases that person’s thoughts of suicide, depression, and anxiety. This is especially true for transgender youth."
Now, with all of this, what do we know? We know that legally (at least in the US, likely where anyone using Freedom of Speech to justify things is from), Freedom of Speech protects (from legal persecution) the use of offensive language in political messaging. We also know that misgendering people can have a big negative impact on trans and nonbinary people, and that gendering properly has a very positive effect on them.
With this new knowledge, looking back at the original argument: "I misgender people because of freedom of speech." This reads as "I intentionally make people feel shitty because legally I'm allowed to", which just makes you an asshole. To quote Bogur 6:07, "If it makes someone happier calling them they/them, I think I'll just call them they/them because I don't give a fuck. ...If someone becomes happier by me calling them they/them, and gets miserable when I don't call them they/them, I'd rather have more people that are happy than more people that are miserable."
I hope all of these sources and definitions bring us all to this same page, because it is this important, so many people use "Freedom of Speech" to justify anything and it's so fucking tone deaf, like yeah you legally _can_ be offensive but that doesn't mean you should or that there's no social/mental health consequence to your words that justify their criticism/silencing in casual spaces. I hope this helps you reflect on your beliefs, or gives you ammo to protect yourself the trans folks in your life.
(And to adress the inevitible "but it's a fictional character it doesn't have feelings" from people who didn't watch the video, that's a strawman argument; no one is saying you should gender Venture properly because it'll have a negative impact on them, because Venture isn't real. People are saying you should gender Venture properly because of how doing so reflects on and affects real trans and nonbinary people. See the people in these comments or his chat citing how his and others' support makes them feel better, myself included (remember the positive effects listed earlier?), and why this whole thing is worth making a character or a video about. It's evidence that this does matter to real people.)
if you seriously get offended because someone doesn't call you they/them ur soft af and hella privileged simple as that, I'm Christian and I don't get upset and call people weirdos for not believing the same as me. everyone is different just like you respect people for not wanting to be forced into this in a game that's meant to have fun. in the next few years the way were heading now were gonna start getting offended for calling pets by there official gender or even worse, really sad to see its respect people until u have other beliefs and just call them weird "bigots" no hate btw just keeping it real.
@@cheaterphysics7344 You're comparing religious beliefs to someone's identity though. If you know who you are, and I say "No actually, you are wrong. This is what you are", that's just cringe. That's weirdo behavior. If you're a he, and everyone starts calling you she, that's gonna feel really weird. And then you say "I'm a he, stop calling me she", and I just tell you "nope you're a she. why are you so offended".
Do you see the issue? You don't have "other beliefs" about other people's identity. It has nothing to do with you. You are who you are. Get it?
@@wicked5999 you can’t be born a they/them, you are born a he or she so no. No one wakes up and says they feel like a them that just doesn’t happen ur getting offended by choosing to change into a they/them and if you start forcing it on people when ur biologically a boy or girl it’s weird af. And it most definitely is similar to religious beliefs because it’s something you believe in that u even go out of ur way to “change” to a they/them and believe in different pronouns. If you can get hurt by that then Christian’s can definitely get hurt by people clowning on there reigion so why is it different?? I don’t care what people want to go by as long as they don’t force it on people and start throwing matches because of it in games that are meant to have fun and not be serious.
@@cheaterphysics7344 You are conflating sex and gender. What's on your birth certificate doesn't always correlate to your gender identity. Do a quick search, it doesn't take long to learn the basics of it. Every major health organization agrees on this, and the knowledge isn't new. This is grade school stuff. Don't go around spreading this hateful stuff. You didn't just wake up and "feel like" whatever you are, you're correct. You just ARE what you are. That's your identity. That includes for example nonbinary people as well. They are who they are. You didn't CHOOSE to identify they way YOU do. Neither does anybody else. I don't need belief to validate who YOU are as a person. You already know who you are, it has absolutely nothing to do with belief from anyone else.
I hope this was worth the 8 likes 😭
As a non binary person, I just wanted to thank you. Your takes are 100% correct, and it makes me feel some semblance of hope when I see cis creators standing up for us. The world would be a better place if more people thought like you
Mad respect Bogur, glad you are supporting it, and calling out the assholes that just wanna be cruel.
Started watching like 5 bogur videos in a row today at like 6am. Now watching this one, as someone who just came out as nb this makes me very happy. You're very cool bogur :)
most of the points people made against using they/them pronouns never actually addressed or countered Bogur's points lmfao its like they weren't listening, based Bogur btw you're the goat
bogur u make me really happy as a trans person. u genuinely make not only overwatch but the world a better place
Can I not be criticized for calling someone what I want to call them?
you can be criticized for any behavior you exhibit towards another person if it hurts them or makes someone upset. You aren't infallible and you should always strive to be a better person.
You're on the internet asking to not be criticized...
Can you at least smell the irony?
its not malicious, I don't do it to spite anyone its just how I prefer to refer to people. its also easier and simpler to just call people by their names.
"We are just free speeching. Isn't it just silencing people?" lmaoooo you're definitely free to be an asshole but others are also free to call you out and call you an asshole XD
Thank you so much for helping with speaking up, people will say they are doing free speech when all they do is silence and diminish something they don't understand that can easily turn to hatred. Seeing venture and other nonbinary characters being included in media with genuine thought and work put into them and not just to ask for our money, fills my heart with joy and hope for the future of the community being understood and safer to live our lives. Thank you so much it truly means the world you are willing to speak and help the broad issue💛
a tru iconic ally
saw some silly discussion under one of flats recent videos, talking about the same ''drama'' and calling it 'textbook' fascism for telling others to be respectful, like where are the braincells? some people are so stubborn and really dumb.
We must protect Bogur. He is so precious.
You call onmics he/she. You're already basing pronouns on identity and not sex.
To be fair, omnics are ACTUALLY genderless. Orisa maybe be called a she, Ram and Zen may be called he, but in all technialities they're "they" simply because they're inorganic beings.
@@gilgameshthetreasurehunter2750The point OP is trying to make is people do it when they don't think about it. Why should thinking about it increase the difficulty.
People who are actively avoiding calling Venture they and people who are insisting on using the right pronouns at all times have the same annoying energy. It‘s not that deep, Venture is a fictional character and the game has bigger issues than this
If it's not that deep it shouldn't matter what they call Ven. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They is just as many syllables as he or she...
If it ain't that deep, just do it.
I love the "free speech" argument so much because all the people who say it are people who don't actually KNOW what free speech is in regards to
Free Speech, at least according to various governments, is the ability for a citizen of that country to critique and be loud about the actions their government is taking. It has absolutely nothing to do with a one-on-one level, being asked to call someone by their pronouns isn't a "violation of free speech" because it's not even what "free speech" is about in the first place. These people just hear the words "free" and "speech" and they assume that it allows them to say what they want with no punishment or consequences
You're delusional
This is the second video I’ve watched of Bogur’s (first being the one with the Venture VA) and I gotta say, based.
W + Based + THE BLESSING OF RA
i know this is a normal speech, but I love you Bogur you're the goat for that, thank you :))
the fact the video ended with winston saying "a better world is possible today" is just perfection
The B in Bogur stands for Badass
Its not hard to respect others, you don't lose anything using the correct pronouns
Correct pronouns? In Russia and other CIS countries she is a female, bet in Asia countries as well. So what's the correct pronouns if company don't care itself and change it to make more money ?
@@vyg3313 Are you joking?
You're talking about countries and companies
I'm talking about people and pronouns
@@pixxur People live in these countries, if you don't know about it, and in this countries she is a female, and my question was - What's the correct pronouns? Cause in my country she is a female, in America its not, for example. Answer it, if you don't mind
@@vyg3313 So you're delusional? Ok, muting you.
Come back when you learned a thing or two
@@pixxur Wow 😂
sometimes I accidentally call Venture He, but that's because I'm not used to in-game characters going by pronouns other than she and he. Of course, I correct myself. If you want to be a bitch because your masculinity and femininity get so shattered by calling someone They/Them, by all means, do that, but that doesn't make you right. Do what you want don't expect any respect from others. Bogur is a W for this video and is saying something about this "drama"
I'm never calling anyone they them. Man and woman walk the earth. They them makes no sense, grammatically, logically, or realistically. It's a delusion I won't be privy to.
@@mjodreaper8481 grammatically, logically, and literally, it does exist. You’re just too brain dead to accept it
@@mjodreaper8481 wompwomp snowflake
@@RandomEeveethats ironic, seems like you obedient npcs cant stop projecting
@@leight420 Idk what my original comment said, but calling other people npcs shows me you're probably not very bright and that you think you're very special when you're not.
Mr. Burger it makes me so happy to see someone outside the spectrum speak positively on nb people, in my experience validation is pretty hard to find so this was a nice change of pace thank you Bunger ❤😊
WOW WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT treating people like people is actually a good thing
They missed the whole point of overwatch, “Anyone can be a Hero.”
i agree 99.9% the only problem i have is that I'm fucking dumb. i forget to call people by their right pronouns, i mean i have friends who are trans and non-binary and i accidentally call them by their bio pronouns purely based off their voices' hell i have guy friends with feminine voices that i call she on accident. My point is that the meaning behind ones' words are what truly matter, like bogur said if you are calling people by the wrong pronouns for fun you are a dick if you are dumb like me and often forget it's different.
this is real. People make mistakes sometimes, I think a lot of trans people would much rather live in a world where people would occasionally slip up accidentally. Than a world where they get perpetually misgendered maliciously. As long as we're able to apologize and correct our mistakes it's ok
@@raptorboss6688 I agree ppl make mistakes, and a lot of the hate you see now bc it's been forced down people's throats. it's the same issue a lot of people have with parents who are super religious. People don't like being told what to do, or what to think.
That being said coming from a extremely conservative person myself, I will refer to ppl by their preferred pronouns If they ask me to. I may not agree with them for a myriad of reasons but I'm not the kind of person to belittle ones mental health just to win offensive points. I'll respect shit even if I don't agree with it. Unless you try and force me to, or are a complete asshole ab it
Mid fight I call mercy widow tracer junk HE sometimes, it's just my instinct.
Tbh if ur in the heat of the moment, it's probably fine to use the wrong pronouns for characters. I think outside of intense battles, you should at least try to use the right pronouns tho
I don't like the term, but I genuinely think that people who get upset over pronouns, you know, a set of WORDS, are true "snowflakes". Like in what world does it ACTUALLY affect you?
What was bro in the comments even on about "Call monkey it then since he's an animal" ??? What was that supposed to mean? That's literally the opposite of respecting pronouns and the fact that this person jumped to that is really telling
It is stupid drama. If I call Venture a her, people shouldn’t be tilted about it. I respect the irl VA pronouns, but don’t get mad at people for confusing Venture for a her.
Btw, Venture has nice thighs.
Getting tilted over a mistake is indeed silly, correcting you on that mistake without getting tilted is definitely the play.
Imagine if in a classroom, there's a bully saying mean things to some kid and that kid is upset, then the teacher comes and says, "Hey, bully get out of here." Then then bully turns to the teacher and says, "OMG, this is an echo chamber."
You have the right to say mean things, but don't cry when people get angry at you ...
based bogur.
I'm glad I found this channel, my brain basically keyboard mashed when they showed off Venture and I'm nonbinary myself so seeing people defend Venture and by proxy other enbys is amazing. Ty for this video and your mindset overall
that 0:11 second time mark has been on loop since this video came out
im a non-binary person and this genuinely makes me feel so happy and supported