Maybe it isn't an issue with more power, but I sure wish I got to shift more in my base 981 Cayman. It would be a lot more fun if 2nd gear topped out around 60 rather than 80.
Ratios don’t matter with PDK… but manual boxes are better slightly “longer” when doing loads of corners, to avoid up shifts and then downshifts before cornering. Your charts are bang on, showing that nothing’s too long or short in reality.
It's absolutely not a myth. I'm not saying it's a reason not to buy, but I guarantee with the way you drive if you put shorter gearing in your Boxster you'd absolutely love it. It would make the car feel so much more alive and vivid and interactive.
Shorter gears is like having more money, you're not going to be upset if someone gives it to you. But the amount of times I've said to myself "I wish this car had shorter gears" has been zero.
@@DasCayman The point is that once you'd tried your Spyder with shorter gearing I guarantee if you went back to stock the amount of times you said to yourself "I wish this car had shorter gears" would be every time you drove it, the car would be that much more fun and engaging with shorter gearing. Ultimately, you're dismissing something you haven't experienced. I agree that, in reality, most of the moaning about the gearing is just people jumping on the bandwagon who don't actually know what they're talking about (let's be honest, when it comes to stuff like this, hardly anyone knows what they're talking about). But for once the bandwagon has it right. The car would benefit a lot from shorter gearing.
Thank you for your video. I followed a link from you because I commented on another video that the gearing could be shorter.😁 I hope you did not need to scream too much. I share your opinion that any Porsche beyond a 987 Spyder in terms of power is just too fast for the public roads. And you are absolutely right that it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than driving a fast car slow. In my opinion, the Miata in current G184 ND guise is NOT a slow car by objective standards. It is the horsepower race of the last two decades that let's us think the ND G184 is slow. But acceleration and speed is a subjective impression, so I understand that people see that differently. What is often forgotten, and adds to the emotion of driving with ambitions on the country roads, is weight. That is why a Lotus Elise, a Miata or the Boxster will provide more fun than a BMW 4 series cabriolet, for example, on spirited driving. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to drive a Porsche. Assuming that the tests and owners are correct, the act of shifting must be a joy in any Boxster/Cayman/911. And that is exactly why I would wish for a shorter gearing, so you could do that shifting a bit more often (while using the equally enjoying full range of revs, especially with an NA engine). Imagine second gear would top at 65 mph, 3rd gear at 95 mph, and 4th at 120, and how many shifts more you would do while being able to use the full rev range. This is what I would call even more emotional than the already excellent base car. Of course there are things to consider: Would traction be less in-gear due to the shorter ratios? And evaluating your example of costs, 10k (before fitting?) is a hard sell. Lot of money for a very specific taste, and the single flywheel is definitely the more sensible choice. And a shorter gearing will not bring a big benefit on overall acceleration, there will be not a big difference to notice. The main advantage is being more often in the right rev range, but a Boxster Spyder, Cayman GT4 and so on, they have more than enough oomph for public roads at any revs.
Das good video. Have a 718 GT4, never understood the complaints about long gearing. Like yourself, I got a lightened flywheel recently...now I def don't feel the long gearing since the revs come up quick =)
Thank you! For people who actually drive these cars, they will never complain about the gearing. For people who only drive the speed limit, they will complain. But these cars aren't designed to top out at 60mph. The lightweight flywheel has been one of my favorite mods on my Spyder to date.
@@DasCayman I'd say it's exactly the opposite. The harder you drive, the more you'd appreciate shorter gearing. Equally, if you're just pootling about, the gearing hardly matters except perhaps wanting a long 6th for cruising.
You're fooling yourself. The revs climb and fall quickly when the clutch is disengaged, or you're in neutral. You can shift a bit quicker. The engine feels more responsive, but a light flywheel has very little effect on acceleration of the vehicle as a whole. But... if you like the extra driver engagement; shorter gearing would add to the experience, in a big way.
@@colinbowman8816 Indeed, most commentary about LWFW is fantasy land. If you're in gear, it makes zero difference to anything. You have 1.5t of car hooked up to the powertrain, that's where the inertia to revs is. The flywheel only makes a difference as you say in neutral or with the clutch dipped. But it's "cool" to talk about how it makes the car rev happy, so people do. Total nonsense, but it was ever thus on the internet!
The problem with ALL Cayman/Boxters is that they only had two/three speed gearbox. First, second and "highway". The rest is USELESS. The long gearing kill the experience. 😮💨
The gearing on the GT4 is too long in my opinion. I think one point to highlight is that it's almost the same gearing as a GT3, but has 25% less power. On most UK tracks, in my 981 boxster S, I only use 2nd and 3rd. On the ring, i did get to 5th as you said, but very briefly.
These are fast cars, so in order to use the higher gearing and shift more you really just have to drive the car faster. Not condoning being wreckless or suggesting that, but these cars are meant for speed and Porsche geared them that way. They can handle the speed through these roads. Our licenses, conscious and police cannot handle it though. It’s why the Corolla GR is so popular.
@DasCayman Agree on the gearing for a 911 GT3 or even a 4 RS; these cars have 500bhp, but Porsche uses similar gearing for the cars with 300bhp. Lower gearing would be more suitable for lower power cars - the cars would actually be faster too.
@@DasCayman This is mostly nonsense. On good roads worth driving, in other words, tight and twisty backroads, you can't just drive faster, they're not full of 120, 130, 140mph corners. This is a classic case of arguing from bias. These cars would be so much more fun with shorter gearing. It's just you haven't driven your 987 with shorter gearing, you enjoy driving it and so you've decided that must mean there's nothing wrong with the gearing. Your logic is faulty. Actually, there is something wrong with the gearing and as I said in the other oost, I absolutely guarantee with the way you drive you'd totally love shorter gearing in your Spyder if you tried it.
had a 997.2 with a 6spd and now have a 987.1 5spd and the older one is more fun on the narrow twisty back roads where I live but it will pull 105 out of 3rd @ 7000rpm if I wring it out. Spend most of my time over 4K in 2nd and 3rd. It's great fun! Probably not a city daily driver car.
Ok you sent me here from another video and I listened to the whole video. I've driven my 987.2 on track and I felt the gears specifically 2nd was a bit to long. On the back roads 100% I agree the gearing isn't an issue. I haven't tried a light weight flywheel yet, however on the street I have noticed the long second doesn't feel as long since I modified the car with the extra power and suspension goodies, but I haven't gotten it back on track. Honestly I love the platform as a whole and the gearing over all never detracted from fun.
Thanks for watching. The gears really aren't an issue because they match the performance of the car. However the gears don't match what drivers are willing to drive on the road... (I don't blame them), but it's not a design flaw. The gearing in these cars are great.
@@DasCayman on the road 100% perfect, on some tracks though 2nd is definitely a bit long. Had issues falling below the magic 4500ish rpm in tighter corners where it definitely diminished corner exit on a stock car. As I said I have yet to get back on track since I got suspension and power adders which potentially may fix it and I'll be saying it's perfect 😂
Interesting video, you should try a gt4 with shorter gears though, I had a little stint in one and the difference was noticeable, as you say at street speeds it’s a welcome change, on the Nurburgring it doesn’t matter. On a different note, help me decide on my next P car: 987.2 Spyder manual (80k eur), 987.2 Cayman r man (70k eur) 997.1 gt3 (95k eur). It will be a street car and for that reason I would love a Spyder like yours but those prices really make me go toward the gt3. What do you think? Which will be the best on a mountain road? I live close to the Italian Alps btw :) Thanks man!
Thanks Giovanni, no doubt that putting shorter gears in these cars will make them more fun. Same reason why I modded my Spyder in other ways. As for your dilemma, if you're driving just for fun I'd get the Spyder. Especially since you can get manual and bucket seats and it's a lightweight car, probably 300lb lighter than the GT3. If you're hell bent against convertibles then the Cayman R is also a great choice for its cost difference to the GT3. At the end of the day, I love to drive cars that I don't have to worry about so if you feel like you have to financially stretch at all for the GT3 it will take some of the fun out of the drive. What's nice about the GT3 is its engine and prestige, but you'll have just as much fun in the Cayman R or Spyder, if not more. Whichever you choose, get the right spec. If it rains a lot where you live, maybe skip the Spyder. But if it never rains at all and you're just doing mountain passes, I'd get the Spyder. It's all the car you'd ever need, but I would suggest a few choice modifications. Let me know if this has helped at all. For me, anything that's not seeing the track will always be 987.2 Spyder with a few tweaks.
@@DasCayman I'm a little confused now.. You literally said, "I feel that the Porsche long-gearing is a myth...", but now you see the value in going to shorter gearing.... You into politics?
@@dre32pitt I’m trying to be nice a not come straight out and say that everyone who complains about the long gearing is just driving like a little b*tch
@@DasCayman lol... Just be yourself ffs.. no need to tip toe through the tulips lol.. And you do you.. If you wanna drive triple-digit speeds on backroads, go for it.. but to regard those who value their life, money, and time, as 'little bitches' is quite juvenile.. It's okay to admit that that indeed is a Porsche flaw (for those who dont have access to an autobahn, which is what the cars were designed for.....).. You drop some shorter gears into a .2 Cayman base and that car will be more fun than a Cayman R, at least to me.. One thing becomes more clear the older you get.. its not about the speed.. its about the feel of the car.. the sound (probably my most important thing).. your hands, arms, feet, and toes all working together.. outright speed is kind of boring tbh.. I need curves.. i need to heel-toe.. My 'Ultimate' P-car would be a first gen Cayman with a Metzger and short gearing (and a diff of course)..
I fault no one for wanting to drive the speed limit, that's their choice. Just don't complain about the gears being too short. They bought a car that is too fast for them. My Aprilia does like 80mph in first gear. Do people think I keep in in 1st the whole time? No. It's just a fast bike that likes to hang out above 100mph. I have friends who bought GT3's to drive in Manhattan. Should Porsche make a softer suspension for them and shorten the gears so they can hit 4th between traffic lights? No. They just bought the wrong car. I also echo your points about having fun. I personally hate that while I'm having fun doing all that you mentioned that I'm going up to 120-130 on backroads. I'd prefer to keep it below 100. Driving a slow car fast is always going to be better than driving a fast car slow. I drove a GT4RS for a while and though it was fun, it was just too fast for the road. I'm not going to complain to Porsche to shorten the gears.... I'm just going to choose a different car, which, I did. Fwiw, Cayman R is really all you need for backroads. It's why I like the Spyder, takes some of the seriousness out of the drive with it being a convertible. @@dre32pitt
Wringing out second gear WOT coming out of an EZ pass toll station in the GTS 4.0 honestly feels a bit weak - car doesn't pull very hard (and I'm shifting to 2nd at redline of 1st). But I was coming from a C7 Z06 which pulls like a motherf*cker. Once my car is out of warranty I will pay the coin, take it to Deman and re-gear it (same ratios as the 4RS) and also put in a lightweight flywheel and a tune.
Probably 10 hours of labor. It can be done in a single day if you don't come across any problems and stay focused and efficient and have the right tools.
(Having never driven a Porsche) I’m going to say the gearing is too long. I went from a 06 civic si to e92 m3 both manual and definitely miss the shorter gearing of the civic. Top of 5th in the civic is 130mph which means on a backroad I’m using 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and well into 5th gear. Where the m3 goes 110mph in 3rd gear so I’m only ever in 2nd and 3rd and briefly into 4th just to shift back to 3rd.
The Porsches are more capable cars so you can still use 2-3-4, but your brain will chicken out before shifting into 5th, not the car. It’s just more capable.
I think part of the problem is that it feels like the gears is to long because of the engine characteristics where most of the power is very high up in the revs. I would need to be 8 speed gear to keep it in that power band all the time .... The gearing could be better and less long yes, but then you would need more gears?
Power band is up high, sure. But that's where the engine sounds good. Rev it out and have fun. You don't need an 8 speed as well... here's video of what it's like to use nearly all the gears... ua-cam.com/video/lLnb1bEPXag/v-deo.htmlsi=z2XGu7sx33W4pE8Y
When people say that "Well I can basically drive the car in 1st the whole time since it goes to 60mph," makes steam come out of my ears lol. All the gearing on these cars are fine. Until you get down to a super short ratio box like a WRC rally car... just enjoy it....
Here 150km/h or 150mp/h will land you 3 to 6 months in prison or the last one years in prison. And if you are a repeat offender with speeding they can legaly take our car. Also yes you can easily run away from the police but since YOU will be the second person in 500km / 270 miles radius that own a Porche you will not be hard to find...
I've driven an S2000 many times in my earlier years. I always said (back then) if my budget was $10k I'd always get an S2000. Such pure drivers cars and you can wring them out without going insane top speeds.
@@DasCayman You should move to Germany. Autobahn is more your speed it seems.. trying to get max speed out of a FiST is futile, lol.. its an liftoff oversteer maniac (I had one too) and way more fun to drive than all of the other hot hatches I've owned (MS3, FK8 CTR, FoST, STI Type RA, Mk7.5 GTI, Mk3 GTI VR6, CRX Si, MS6)
The gears are too long. Have you heard that Porsche gears the cars so that they don't fail the 'pass-by' noise testing? There's some test where you drive through a gate at some low speed in 2nd gear or something, then accelerate fully, and the highest decibel measured is recorded. If it had shorter gearing, it would accelerate faster, be at higher rpm, making more noise. It would also be a touch faster, and a bunch more fun and engaging. ua-cam.com/video/M8I9X5ssEfw/v-deo.html IIRC Elon said in some podcast that the Model S Plaids were failing the test from tire/wind noise alone, they just move through the testing gates faster than most everything tested. ua-cam.com/video/AvB0QtCXSoY/v-deo.html Not sure why this is in slo-mo, but you can see the driver floors it when he gets in the testing/measuring area. I'd need to go read the testing standards or something to have a better idea of the test procedures.
If Porsche made a car that sounded like a Jaguar SVR from the factory then you can say it's for noise. For the most part, Porsche cars are very quiet from the factory. At no point have I driven any of my Porsches and said, "damn, these gears are way too long" I use 1-5 on backroads every time I take the cars out and am shifting constantly ua-cam.com/video/C9tJUKsmOSc/v-deo.html
According to this guy's logic we r buying this car to drive only in middle of nowhere or on track.what about people who want to enjoy this car in a b road or a road which has a normal traffic😮
Porsche puts all their cars on track and do 'Ring times. They just also make them available to drive in city traffic so they offer things like adaptive cruise control on 911's. They didn't design these cars to race between red lights in Manhattan. I'll also say that these cars are perfectly normal for normal traffic roads. And if there is traffic around, there really is no point in driving fast...
@@DasCayman it's not just about driving fast ryt,why don't a person get a tesla if he need to drive fast,people buy a porsche for many other variables like it's chasis,handling ,weight distribution etc.And majority of people will drive this in a b roads with traffic and regulation.
Can you feel the lighter flywheel when you are in gear and you accelerate? If i understand it correctly, it is just more sensitive and faster when revmatching, but when in gear...maybe it will add you 3hp by having less mass for the engine to accelerate? I have a 987.1 cayman S and im considering getting shorter final drive so it will feel faster on backroads and in the city.
If you want to feel faster on backroads and especially in city (lower gears) the flywheel will help tremendously. The lower the gear, the greater the effect. So 1st gear will feel like an extra 30hp, where’s 4th or 5th an extra 3hp
My issue with the gearing comes down to sound.. In normal driving I can never rev the car out to hear the awesome flat 6 soundtrack in the upper RPM range.. (.1 cayman S).. I get to hear it maybe twice on a freeway on ramp pull.. If there's one thing it could use, it's shorter gearing.. would gain some 'mechanical HP' and I can keep it in the upper RPM during 'normal' driving.. That's my only complaint on the car.. it could be a LOT better with shorter gearing.. Seems like everyone who's done the shorter gearing mod says it's the best mod ever lool.. IMO anything over 65mph in 2nd gear is too tall.. edit: my local backroads top out at maybe 60mph.. so im in 'no man's land' when it comes to the sound I wanna hear from the car.. I actually enjoy my nd miata a lot more because I'm constantly rowing and heel-toeing.. all without going over 70 (which is still enough to get a hefty ticket, but not like doing a buck, lol).
Slow car fast > fast car slow. The issue isn’t the gearing. It’s that everyone bought a car that’s too fast for their comfort zone. If you feel like the engine is laboring itself to get to redline in 2nd then the gearing can be said to be too long. But this is never the issue. It’s the operator backing out due to speed limits or lack of commitment. Car is geared just fine. I also have a 987.1 cayman S and there’s no issue with the gears.
@@DasCayman Pardon me for not wanting to end up in the bushes or jail, lol.. You'll hear the pop soon enough edit: and if you can't admit that yes the cars would be more fun with shorter gearing, then you're just on a soapbox lol. Because while there isn't anything technically wrong with the gearing it for sure could be shorter. Do a poll and i bet you it's answered as such.
Yeah but... isn't the 911 reving higher ? Therefore, the difference isn't fair, and accentuates the feeling of the gearing from the boxster/cayman to be longer ... (bc for the same RPM, the speed would be much lower for the 911 reving at 9K rpm)
Revs higher, yes, but “barely” compared to a 718. End of the day people complain about not being able to change gears. The hard truth is that they just aren’t using the cars.
Do you think a base 997.2 manual is enough to have fun with on backroads / canyons? Do you find the slower acceleration to hinder the fun when compared to a 997 GT3?
I’ve personally not driven a base 997.2 manual. But the dfi engines are amazing. Really good 911 to own, the 997.2. Are you currently shopping for one?
I just bought one. But the last car I 997.2 I drove was a 3RS. I buy the GT cars to sell and don’t want my capital tied up in my personal cars. Have a 3RS shifter ready to go in, Fabspeed intake and coil overs
@@hazemgiballi 997.2 3RS is a fun and fast car. I had a go in one for an hour on my back roads a couple years ago. Your 997.2 is enough to have fun with. I always try to add more theater to help with the fun so I’m not just relying on speed for the fun feedback. Shifter, flywheel, maybe a valved exhaust, etc. A car that you can buy and use everyday and not worry about will always be more fun than an objectively faster car that you do have to worry about. You control the car, don’t let the car control you. If the car controls you, then we bought the wrong car.
@@DasCayman saw the flywheel video on your channel. Looks INSANE. Your Spyder is probably faster than my 3.6 997.2 though no? I am considering doing the flywheel but I’m wondering if it’s livable on the 997.2. How hard is the flywheel to do yourself on a 997.2? Do you see any downsides to doing it? I feel like it’ll give me that free revving GT feel (especially with the freer revving 3.6 as opposed to 3.8) but I’ve heard chatter (pun intended) that the harmonics can get out of alignment and cause engine knock?
Thanks! And yeah, the data I pulled @3:10 shows how the gearing is the same for 987.2, 981, and 718. The rev limits just change. It's amazing how little change in redline can affect the top speed of the gear.
@@DasCayman Actually, the rolling radius for the 987.2 is different, so while the transmission and final drive ratios are the same, the gearing is not. The 987.2 is slightly shorter geared than the other two.
Didn't even take into account the TPMS sensors in how they would effect top speed in each gear, what a joke this guy is...I'm headed over to watch Top Gear USA, who's with me?
I think my 987.2 BS has the same gear ratio's as your spyder, just a difference in power/torque and maybe rev limit. I have thought that sixth needed to be a bit longer to save fuel on the highway but with a top speed of 170mph, I'm good. My back roads are bit more twisty and undulated than what I see you driving on so I rarely get out of third during spirited driving and this is what Porsche designed the car to do, I'm in the power band and the exhaust note is howling! If you need to row through the gears, get a Miata, always the answer.
Yep! We have the same gear ratios. The only thing I'd change with Porsche's gearing is 6th gear like you said and just make is super long. Would love to be going 80/85 in 6th at like 2k rpm lol
gr8 video, thanks for sharing yr thoughts i disagree a lil (but my only experience is with 00s bmw’s) but u made some compelling points in my e64 3-pedal 6-speed v10 m6, 1st goes to 40mph, 2nd goes to 70mph, 3rd goes to 110mph,, and then there’s 3 more gears lmao
i think my ideal street sports car,, 6th would max out around 120-130 mph, and there’d be a 7th just for highway cruising that idk would prolly max out around 200-250 mph (just so it has efficient mph and low cabin noise for highway miles)
also it sounds like the porsche gears are significantly shorter (effectively, when considering groundspeed) than the 6speed bmw cannibalized from their 6krpm redline non-M v8 to put in the v10 m5/m6 as an option ..
I absolutely agree with you ! My 718 Spyder in the shop with light weight flywheel installation in progress 😂. About long gears . I have 992 gt3 manual with 11k miles and my second 718 Spyder with 11k miles in both. I drive same roads in both cars and GT3 is 9k rpm , Spyder 8k rpm, how ever in my gt3 I shift to 3 gear occasionally in the spyder I mostly stay in second . So gears are different, but do i feel Spyder long gears , absolutely not , same fun !!!! Flywheel upgrade is absolute must , but all this 4.5 engine and gears upgrade is absolute nonsense. Again my personal opinion. As manual car Spyder is the best solution ( I have light weight wheels, PCCB and Kline inconel exhaust) super light and super fast. Now GT3 is kinda to crazy for manual , next GT I will try PDK , Spyder will stay forever!!! Great videos , keep going!!!!
Thanks for the response! You should keep your manuals. The PDK is nice, but it just cheat codes you to insane speeds. Especially for GT cars. All my friends who had PDK RS’ traded in for “slower” manual versions. Enjoy those rides!!
@@DasCaymanall my cars manuals, the problem is , that when opportunity comes in RS version- you have to take it!!! I can always go back to GT3 manual but have to experience RS 😂, like I say my 000 Spyder going nowhere, best drivers car!!!
Thanks! Finally someone putting things into perspective 👏🏽
Maybe it isn't an issue with more power, but I sure wish I got to shift more in my base 981 Cayman. It would be a lot more fun if 2nd gear topped out around 60 rather than 80.
Ratios don’t matter with PDK… but manual boxes are better slightly “longer” when doing loads of corners, to avoid up shifts and then downshifts before cornering. Your charts are bang on, showing that nothing’s too long or short in reality.
Porsche clearly geared these cars for track. Shorter gears for manual cars also means more time loss on straights as you’re shifting and eating drag.
It's absolutely not a myth. I'm not saying it's a reason not to buy, but I guarantee with the way you drive if you put shorter gearing in your Boxster you'd absolutely love it. It would make the car feel so much more alive and vivid and interactive.
Shorter gears is like having more money, you're not going to be upset if someone gives it to you. But the amount of times I've said to myself "I wish this car had shorter gears" has been zero.
@@DasCayman The point is that once you'd tried your Spyder with shorter gearing I guarantee if you went back to stock the amount of times you said to yourself "I wish this car had shorter gears" would be every time you drove it, the car would be that much more fun and engaging with shorter gearing. Ultimately, you're dismissing something you haven't experienced. I agree that, in reality, most of the moaning about the gearing is just people jumping on the bandwagon who don't actually know what they're talking about (let's be honest, when it comes to stuff like this, hardly anyone knows what they're talking about). But for once the bandwagon has it right. The car would benefit a lot from shorter gearing.
Thank you for your video. I followed a link from you because I commented on another video that the gearing could be shorter.😁 I hope you did not need to scream too much.
I share your opinion that any Porsche beyond a 987 Spyder in terms of power is just too fast for the public roads. And you are absolutely right that it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than driving a fast car slow.
In my opinion, the Miata in current G184 ND guise is NOT a slow car by objective standards. It is the horsepower race of the last two decades that let's us think the ND G184 is slow. But acceleration and speed is a subjective impression, so I understand that people see that differently.
What is often forgotten, and adds to the emotion of driving with ambitions on the country roads, is weight. That is why a Lotus Elise, a Miata or the Boxster will provide more fun than a BMW 4 series cabriolet, for example, on spirited driving.
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to drive a Porsche. Assuming that the tests and owners are correct, the act of shifting must be a joy in any Boxster/Cayman/911. And that is exactly why I would wish for a shorter gearing, so you could do that shifting a bit more often (while using the equally enjoying full range of revs, especially with an NA engine). Imagine second gear would top at 65 mph, 3rd gear at 95 mph, and 4th at 120, and how many shifts more you would do while being able to use the full rev range. This is what I would call even more emotional than the already excellent base car.
Of course there are things to consider: Would traction be less in-gear due to the shorter ratios? And evaluating your example of costs, 10k (before fitting?) is a hard sell. Lot of money for a very specific taste, and the single flywheel is definitely the more sensible choice. And a shorter gearing will not bring a big benefit on overall acceleration, there will be not a big difference to notice. The main advantage is being more often in the right rev range, but a Boxster Spyder, Cayman GT4 and so on, they have more than enough oomph for public roads at any revs.
Das good video. Have a 718 GT4, never understood the complaints about long gearing. Like yourself, I got a lightened flywheel recently...now I def don't feel the long gearing since the revs come up quick =)
Thank you! For people who actually drive these cars, they will never complain about the gearing. For people who only drive the speed limit, they will complain. But these cars aren't designed to top out at 60mph. The lightweight flywheel has been one of my favorite mods on my Spyder to date.
@@DasCayman I'd say it's exactly the opposite. The harder you drive, the more you'd appreciate shorter gearing. Equally, if you're just pootling about, the gearing hardly matters except perhaps wanting a long 6th for cruising.
You're fooling yourself. The revs climb and fall quickly when the clutch is disengaged, or you're in neutral. You can shift a bit quicker. The engine feels more responsive, but a light flywheel has very little effect on acceleration of the vehicle as a whole.
But... if you like the extra driver engagement; shorter gearing would add to the experience, in a big way.
@@colinbowman8816 Indeed, most commentary about LWFW is fantasy land. If you're in gear, it makes zero difference to anything. You have 1.5t of car hooked up to the powertrain, that's where the inertia to revs is. The flywheel only makes a difference as you say in neutral or with the clutch dipped. But it's "cool" to talk about how it makes the car rev happy, so people do. Total nonsense, but it was ever thus on the internet!
The Cayman is nice, handles smoothly but you cannot beat a Carrera or Turbo.
The problem with ALL Cayman/Boxters is that they only had two/three speed gearbox. First, second and "highway". The rest is USELESS. The long gearing kill the experience. 😮💨
You’re cruising on highway in 3rd? You probably have 3mpg
The gearing on the GT4 is too long in my opinion. I think one point to highlight is that it's almost the same gearing as a GT3, but has 25% less power. On most UK tracks, in my 981 boxster S, I only use 2nd and 3rd. On the ring, i did get to 5th as you said, but very briefly.
These are fast cars, so in order to use the higher gearing and shift more you really just have to drive the car faster. Not condoning being wreckless or suggesting that, but these cars are meant for speed and Porsche geared them that way. They can handle the speed through these roads. Our licenses, conscious and police cannot handle it though.
It’s why the Corolla GR is so popular.
@DasCayman Agree on the gearing for a 911 GT3 or even a 4 RS; these cars have 500bhp, but Porsche uses similar gearing for the cars with 300bhp. Lower gearing would be more suitable for lower power cars - the cars would actually be faster too.
@@DasCayman This is mostly nonsense. On good roads worth driving, in other words, tight and twisty backroads, you can't just drive faster, they're not full of 120, 130, 140mph corners. This is a classic case of arguing from bias. These cars would be so much more fun with shorter gearing. It's just you haven't driven your 987 with shorter gearing, you enjoy driving it and so you've decided that must mean there's nothing wrong with the gearing. Your logic is faulty. Actually, there is something wrong with the gearing and as I said in the other oost, I absolutely guarantee with the way you drive you'd totally love shorter gearing in your Spyder if you tried it.
I could not agree more with you!
had a 997.2 with a 6spd and now have a 987.1 5spd and the older one is more fun on the narrow twisty back roads where I live but it will pull 105 out of 3rd @ 7000rpm if I wring it out. Spend most of my time over 4K in 2nd and 3rd. It's great fun! Probably not a city daily driver car.
997.2 Targa 4S manual is my dream daily driver
Awesome video, clear explanation and changed my perspective
Thanks Vlad! Trying to clear up some cars and coffee internet keyboard confusion.
Ok you sent me here from another video and I listened to the whole video. I've driven my 987.2 on track and I felt the gears specifically 2nd was a bit to long. On the back roads 100% I agree the gearing isn't an issue. I haven't tried a light weight flywheel yet, however on the street I have noticed the long second doesn't feel as long since I modified the car with the extra power and suspension goodies, but I haven't gotten it back on track. Honestly I love the platform as a whole and the gearing over all never detracted from fun.
Thanks for watching. The gears really aren't an issue because they match the performance of the car. However the gears don't match what drivers are willing to drive on the road... (I don't blame them), but it's not a design flaw. The gearing in these cars are great.
@@DasCayman on the road 100% perfect, on some tracks though 2nd is definitely a bit long. Had issues falling below the magic 4500ish rpm in tighter corners where it definitely diminished corner exit on a stock car. As I said I have yet to get back on track since I got suspension and power adders which potentially may fix it and I'll be saying it's perfect 😂
Interesting video, you should try a gt4 with shorter gears though, I had a little stint in one and the difference was noticeable, as you say at street speeds it’s a welcome change, on the Nurburgring it doesn’t matter.
On a different note, help me decide on my next P car: 987.2 Spyder manual (80k eur), 987.2 Cayman r man (70k eur) 997.1 gt3 (95k eur). It will be a street car and for that reason I would love a Spyder like yours but those prices really make me go toward the gt3. What do you think? Which will be the best on a mountain road? I live close to the Italian Alps btw :)
Thanks man!
Thanks Giovanni, no doubt that putting shorter gears in these cars will make them more fun. Same reason why I modded my Spyder in other ways. As for your dilemma, if you're driving just for fun I'd get the Spyder. Especially since you can get manual and bucket seats and it's a lightweight car, probably 300lb lighter than the GT3. If you're hell bent against convertibles then the Cayman R is also a great choice for its cost difference to the GT3. At the end of the day, I love to drive cars that I don't have to worry about so if you feel like you have to financially stretch at all for the GT3 it will take some of the fun out of the drive. What's nice about the GT3 is its engine and prestige, but you'll have just as much fun in the Cayman R or Spyder, if not more. Whichever you choose, get the right spec. If it rains a lot where you live, maybe skip the Spyder. But if it never rains at all and you're just doing mountain passes, I'd get the Spyder. It's all the car you'd ever need, but I would suggest a few choice modifications. Let me know if this has helped at all. For me, anything that's not seeing the track will always be 987.2 Spyder with a few tweaks.
@@DasCayman I'm a little confused now.. You literally said, "I feel that the Porsche long-gearing is a myth...", but now you see the value in going to shorter gearing.... You into politics?
@@dre32pitt I’m trying to be nice a not come straight out and say that everyone who complains about the long gearing is just driving like a little b*tch
@@DasCayman lol... Just be yourself ffs.. no need to tip toe through the tulips lol.. And you do you.. If you wanna drive triple-digit speeds on backroads, go for it.. but to regard those who value their life, money, and time, as 'little bitches' is quite juvenile.. It's okay to admit that that indeed is a Porsche flaw (for those who dont have access to an autobahn, which is what the cars were designed for.....).. You drop some shorter gears into a .2 Cayman base and that car will be more fun than a Cayman R, at least to me..
One thing becomes more clear the older you get.. its not about the speed.. its about the feel of the car.. the sound (probably my most important thing).. your hands, arms, feet, and toes all working together.. outright speed is kind of boring tbh.. I need curves.. i need to heel-toe.. My 'Ultimate' P-car would be a first gen Cayman with a Metzger and short gearing (and a diff of course)..
I fault no one for wanting to drive the speed limit, that's their choice. Just don't complain about the gears being too short. They bought a car that is too fast for them. My Aprilia does like 80mph in first gear. Do people think I keep in in 1st the whole time? No. It's just a fast bike that likes to hang out above 100mph.
I have friends who bought GT3's to drive in Manhattan. Should Porsche make a softer suspension for them and shorten the gears so they can hit 4th between traffic lights? No. They just bought the wrong car.
I also echo your points about having fun. I personally hate that while I'm having fun doing all that you mentioned that I'm going up to 120-130 on backroads. I'd prefer to keep it below 100. Driving a slow car fast is always going to be better than driving a fast car slow. I drove a GT4RS for a while and though it was fun, it was just too fast for the road. I'm not going to complain to Porsche to shorten the gears.... I'm just going to choose a different car, which, I did.
Fwiw, Cayman R is really all you need for backroads. It's why I like the Spyder, takes some of the seriousness out of the drive with it being a convertible.
@@dre32pitt
Wringing out second gear WOT coming out of an EZ pass toll station in the GTS 4.0 honestly feels a bit weak - car doesn't pull very hard (and I'm shifting to 2nd at redline of 1st). But I was coming from a C7 Z06 which pulls like a motherf*cker. Once my car is out of warranty I will pay the coin, take it to Deman and re-gear it (same ratios as the 4RS) and also put in a lightweight flywheel and a tune.
@@TwelveMeese-jb8ke do the flywheel first
@@DasCaymanhow much is the labor to put in the flywheel?
Probably 10 hours of labor. It can be done in a single day if you don't come across any problems and stay focused and efficient and have the right tools.
(Having never driven a Porsche) I’m going to say the gearing is too long. I went from a 06 civic si to e92 m3 both manual and definitely miss the shorter gearing of the civic. Top of 5th in the civic is 130mph which means on a backroad I’m using 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and well into 5th gear. Where the m3 goes 110mph in 3rd gear so I’m only ever in 2nd and 3rd and briefly into 4th just to shift back to 3rd.
The Porsches are more capable cars so you can still use 2-3-4, but your brain will chicken out before shifting into 5th, not the car. It’s just more capable.
I think part of the problem is that it feels like the gears is to long because of the engine characteristics where most of the power is very high up in the revs. I would need to be 8 speed gear to keep it in that power band all the time .... The gearing could be better and less long yes, but then you would need more gears?
Power band is up high, sure. But that's where the engine sounds good. Rev it out and have fun. You don't need an 8 speed as well... here's video of what it's like to use nearly all the gears... ua-cam.com/video/lLnb1bEPXag/v-deo.htmlsi=z2XGu7sx33W4pE8Y
"Can only really use 1st, 2nd, and 6th" -Loser car reviewers afraid to go 150 on public roads 🤣
When people say that "Well I can basically drive the car in 1st the whole time since it goes to 60mph," makes steam come out of my ears lol. All the gearing on these cars are fine. Until you get down to a super short ratio box like a WRC rally car... just enjoy it....
Here 150km/h or 150mp/h will land you 3 to 6 months in prison or the last one years in prison. And if you are a repeat offender with speeding they can legaly take our car.
Also yes you can easily run away from the police but since YOU will be the second person in 500km / 270 miles radius that own a Porche you will not be hard to find...
Do you have access to an S2000 locally? It would be fun to see it in the channel. Such wonderful backroad cars.
I've driven an S2000 many times in my earlier years. I always said (back then) if my budget was $10k I'd always get an S2000. Such pure drivers cars and you can wring them out without going insane top speeds.
@@DasCayman definitely need more than $10k now lolol..
@@dre32pitt yeah… unfortunate. I used to have a Fiesta ST and you could basically use 1-5 while keeping it under 120. Loved that car.
@@DasCayman You should move to Germany. Autobahn is more your speed it seems.. trying to get max speed out of a FiST is futile, lol.. its an liftoff oversteer maniac (I had one too) and way more fun to drive than all of the other hot hatches I've owned (MS3, FK8 CTR, FoST, STI Type RA, Mk7.5 GTI, Mk3 GTI VR6, CRX Si, MS6)
The gears are too long.
Have you heard that Porsche gears the cars so that they don't fail the 'pass-by' noise testing?
There's some test where you drive through a gate at some low speed in 2nd gear or something, then accelerate fully, and the highest decibel measured is recorded. If it had shorter gearing, it would accelerate faster, be at higher rpm, making more noise.
It would also be a touch faster, and a bunch more fun and engaging.
ua-cam.com/video/M8I9X5ssEfw/v-deo.html
IIRC Elon said in some podcast that the Model S Plaids were failing the test from tire/wind noise alone, they just move through the testing gates faster than most everything tested.
ua-cam.com/video/AvB0QtCXSoY/v-deo.html
Not sure why this is in slo-mo, but you can see the driver floors it when he gets in the testing/measuring area.
I'd need to go read the testing standards or something to have a better idea of the test procedures.
If Porsche made a car that sounded like a Jaguar SVR from the factory then you can say it's for noise. For the most part, Porsche cars are very quiet from the factory. At no point have I driven any of my Porsches and said, "damn, these gears are way too long" I use 1-5 on backroads every time I take the cars out and am shifting constantly ua-cam.com/video/C9tJUKsmOSc/v-deo.html
According to this guy's logic we r buying this car to drive only in middle of nowhere or on track.what about people who want to enjoy this car in a b road or a road which has a normal traffic😮
Porsche puts all their cars on track and do 'Ring times. They just also make them available to drive in city traffic so they offer things like adaptive cruise control on 911's. They didn't design these cars to race between red lights in Manhattan. I'll also say that these cars are perfectly normal for normal traffic roads. And if there is traffic around, there really is no point in driving fast...
@@DasCayman it's not just about driving fast ryt,why don't a person get a tesla if he need to drive fast,people buy a porsche for many other variables like it's chasis,handling ,weight distribution etc.And majority of people will drive this in a b roads with traffic and regulation.
Can you feel the lighter flywheel when you are in gear and you accelerate? If i understand it correctly, it is just more sensitive and faster when revmatching, but when in gear...maybe it will add you 3hp by having less mass for the engine to accelerate? I have a 987.1 cayman S and im considering getting shorter final drive so it will feel faster on backroads and in the city.
If you want to feel faster on backroads and especially in city (lower gears) the flywheel will help tremendously. The lower the gear, the greater the effect. So 1st gear will feel like an extra 30hp, where’s 4th or 5th an extra 3hp
My issue with the gearing comes down to sound.. In normal driving I can never rev the car out to hear the awesome flat 6 soundtrack in the upper RPM range.. (.1 cayman S).. I get to hear it maybe twice on a freeway on ramp pull.. If there's one thing it could use, it's shorter gearing.. would gain some 'mechanical HP' and I can keep it in the upper RPM during 'normal' driving.. That's my only complaint on the car.. it could be a LOT better with shorter gearing.. Seems like everyone who's done the shorter gearing mod says it's the best mod ever lool.. IMO anything over 65mph in 2nd gear is too tall..
edit: my local backroads top out at maybe 60mph.. so im in 'no man's land' when it comes to the sound I wanna hear from the car.. I actually enjoy my nd miata a lot more because I'm constantly rowing and heel-toeing.. all without going over 70 (which is still enough to get a hefty ticket, but not like doing a buck, lol).
Slow car fast > fast car slow. The issue isn’t the gearing. It’s that everyone bought a car that’s too fast for their comfort zone. If you feel like the engine is laboring itself to get to redline in 2nd then the gearing can be said to be too long. But this is never the issue. It’s the operator backing out due to speed limits or lack of commitment. Car is geared just fine. I also have a 987.1 cayman S and there’s no issue with the gears.
@@DasCayman Pardon me for not wanting to end up in the bushes or jail, lol.. You'll hear the pop soon enough
edit: and if you can't admit that yes the cars would be more fun with shorter gearing, then you're just on a soapbox lol. Because while there isn't anything technically wrong with the gearing it for sure could be shorter. Do a poll and i bet you it's answered as such.
have you driven the current gen boxster/cayman with the 2.0/2.5 engine? what are your thoughts?
I haven’t but I prefer the NA engines for the theater / sound / enjoyment
Yeah but... isn't the 911 reving higher ? Therefore, the difference isn't fair, and accentuates the feeling of the gearing from the boxster/cayman to be longer ... (bc for the same RPM, the speed would be much lower for the 911 reving at 9K rpm)
Revs higher, yes, but “barely” compared to a 718. End of the day people complain about not being able to change gears. The hard truth is that they just aren’t using the cars.
Great video!
Really appreciate that, thank you.
Do you think a base 997.2 manual is enough to have fun with on backroads / canyons? Do you find the slower acceleration to hinder the fun when compared to a 997 GT3?
I’ve personally not driven a base 997.2 manual. But the dfi engines are amazing. Really good 911 to own, the 997.2. Are you currently shopping for one?
I just bought one. But the last car I 997.2 I drove was a 3RS. I buy the GT cars to sell and don’t want my capital tied up in my personal cars. Have a 3RS shifter ready to go in, Fabspeed intake and coil overs
@@hazemgiballi 997.2 3RS is a fun and fast car. I had a go in one for an hour on my back roads a couple years ago. Your 997.2 is enough to have fun with. I always try to add more theater to help with the fun so I’m not just relying on speed for the fun feedback. Shifter, flywheel, maybe a valved exhaust, etc. A car that you can buy and use everyday and not worry about will always be more fun than an objectively faster car that you do have to worry about. You control the car, don’t let the car control you. If the car controls you, then we bought the wrong car.
@@DasCayman saw the flywheel video on your channel. Looks INSANE. Your Spyder is probably faster than my 3.6 997.2 though no? I am considering doing the flywheel but I’m wondering if it’s livable on the 997.2.
How hard is the flywheel to do yourself on a 997.2? Do you see any downsides to doing it? I feel like it’ll give me that free revving GT feel (especially with the freer revving 3.6 as opposed to 3.8) but I’ve heard chatter (pun intended) that the harmonics can get out of alignment and cause engine knock?
clear explanation but the 718 GT4 gearing is identical to 981, they just Rev a bit higher
Thanks! And yeah, the data I pulled @3:10 shows how the gearing is the same for 987.2, 981, and 718. The rev limits just change. It's amazing how little change in redline can affect the top speed of the gear.
@@DasCayman Actually, the rolling radius for the 987.2 is different, so while the transmission and final drive ratios are the same, the gearing is not. The 987.2 is slightly shorter geared than the other two.
Didn't even take into account the TPMS sensors in how they would effect top speed in each gear, what a joke this guy is...I'm headed over to watch Top Gear USA, who's with me?
you can reach top speed by adding a leafblower to your intake!
🤦🏻♂️
I think my 987.2 BS has the same gear ratio's as your spyder, just a difference in power/torque and maybe rev limit. I have thought that sixth needed to be a bit longer to save fuel on the highway but with a top speed of 170mph, I'm good. My back roads are bit more twisty and undulated than what I see you driving on so I rarely get out of third during spirited driving and this is what Porsche designed the car to do, I'm in the power band and the exhaust note is howling! If you need to row through the gears, get a Miata, always the answer.
Yep! We have the same gear ratios. The only thing I'd change with Porsche's gearing is 6th gear like you said and just make is super long. Would love to be going 80/85 in 6th at like 2k rpm lol
gr8 video,
thanks for sharing yr thoughts
i disagree a lil (but my only experience is with 00s bmw’s) but u made some compelling points
in my e64 3-pedal 6-speed v10 m6,
1st goes to 40mph,
2nd goes to 70mph,
3rd goes to 110mph,,
and then there’s 3 more gears lmao
i think my ideal street sports car,,
6th would max out around 120-130 mph,
and there’d be a 7th just for highway cruising that idk would prolly max out around 200-250 mph (just so it has efficient mph and low cabin noise for highway miles)
also it sounds like the porsche gears are significantly shorter (effectively, when considering groundspeed)
than the 6speed bmw cannibalized from their 6krpm redline non-M v8 to put in the v10 m5/m6 as an option ..
I absolutely agree with you ! My 718 Spyder in the shop with light weight flywheel installation in progress 😂. About long gears . I have 992 gt3 manual with 11k miles and my second 718 Spyder with 11k miles in both. I drive same roads in both cars and GT3 is 9k rpm , Spyder 8k rpm, how ever in my gt3 I shift to 3 gear occasionally in the spyder I mostly stay in second . So gears are different, but do i feel Spyder long gears , absolutely not , same fun !!!! Flywheel upgrade is absolute must , but all this 4.5 engine and gears upgrade is absolute nonsense. Again my personal opinion. As manual car Spyder is the best solution ( I have light weight wheels, PCCB and Kline inconel exhaust) super light and super fast. Now GT3 is kinda to crazy for manual , next GT I will try PDK , Spyder will stay forever!!!
Great videos , keep going!!!!
Thanks for the response! You should keep your manuals. The PDK is nice, but it just cheat codes you to insane speeds. Especially for GT cars. All my friends who had PDK RS’ traded in for “slower” manual versions. Enjoy those rides!!
@@DasCaymanall my cars manuals, the problem is , that when opportunity comes in RS version- you have to take it!!! I can always go back to GT3 manual but have to experience RS 😂, like I say my 000 Spyder going nowhere, best drivers car!!!