Fixing the 2AR's incessant cam gear rattle for good!
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2021
- In this video I address the 2AR's only weak point (so far). Both high power builds I've done so far have been plagued by startup rattle so i need to address it before continuing to develop this motor.
All swap parts to install a 2AR into your MR2 Spyder are available here: frankensteinmotorworks.square...
If you need the 5 pointed torx like bit to open the cam gear you can get it right here: amzn.to/3fvuKG7
Thank you for watching! - Авто та транспорт
Its this kind of detail that makes this channel one of the best. Thank for this.
Agreed
Thank you for giving me an audience. I used to do all this stuff before but now i get to share it with people :)
Just discovering your work, you've sold me friend
You look at problems like a proper scientist. Using expert methodologies, professional instruments to gather data, and testing your hypothesis. None of this fascile power mod suggestion stuff anyone else can come up with on their own. I see you'll also transcendentally look for solutions and changes before setting pencil to paper, following your insights. All this possible through years of experience/training, but fueled by a strong love of the game for it's own sake. Thank you for bringing this content to us, it's always an education for me.
"professional" equipment.... as professional as I can get on a shoe string budget. I have to get pretty creative sometimes to get the data that I want and as you've seen now the mill often ends up being the base of my instrumentation. I really want to build a machine to test valve springs at high RPM to determine required spring rates. I'm pretty sure many people in the industry are using rather excessive spring pressures and I don't like the extra friction. I also need a flow bench at some point so I can explore some porting on this motor.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Something something something kickstarter! Haha
I agree! Real talent here!
I always drop what I’m doing whenever you upload. Glad to see you were able to find an answer to your cam rattle. I like this style of video where it feels like we are all along for the ride on the mystery and is more satisfying than just posting conclusions. Oh, do you have a TIS subscription?
Thank you for the feedback. It certainly won't always be able to work this way since sometimes i spend weeks going back and forth to the shop measuring one or two things and just letting it stew for a while while i think of different designs that can solve my problem.
I don't have a permanent TIS subscription but i usually buy a 3 day subscription a couple times a year. It's a great source for info. Especially if you read between the lines of the info they do give.
I suspected spring tension also, as Honda has the same problem and I have fixed it simply by stretching the spring and the rattle went away.
Excellent work. So informative and scientific!
Keep up the good work!!
great video. love the intro feedback. i love these videos too. keep them up
Awesome developments as always!
Thank you, this one was a pretty big discovery, Nobody would want to have to hear that rattle every time they start the motor.
Its more like Mythbusters when you discover as you go. I like it.
I really like the editing style of this video
I need to wait 24hours after initial release before i can see any analytics but what i can see so far says that this is a pretty decent success.
I very much appreciate the how to vids an details it helps to understand what's going on.
More 2ar-fe vids👍👍👍
With the new cams that have just arrived there will be a few 2AR-FE videos coming down the pipeline soon.
Great channel very informative 😎
I fixed mine with out buying parts and with out removing the cam gear, by adding a spring, I even made a how to video about it.
the nerd in me loves these videos
Honestly this thing is getting way more views than i expected. Still less than normal for me but a lot more than i expected. So you aren't alone enjoying this extra nerdy content.
Great video!!! Very informative and to the point. One problem I am having on my 2AR-FE is of course the cold start rattle but also after the engine warms up what sounds like a Valve tick/knock. Doesn't happen all the time, seems to be there some days and other days the ticking/knocking is gone.
Any idea's on what this could be would be greatly appreciated!!!
Also worth noting is the condition of the vvti screen filters behind the banjo bolts.
When they dirty/clog, initial oil flow on engine cold start is reduced.
The AR has the filters inside the engine so they aren't easy to check after it is assembled but that is a good point that should be checked.
Tip: add the time stamps in the time line, so viewers can slide to the conclusion if they would like to. Make it visually easier to scroll through the video. You can also use the analytics for future videos
I don't disagree, if I'm honest I just get lazy sometimes.
At 3:22, you state that "this is turning into a puzzle" and that "this is supposed to be possible" and you'd be right on both counts. After messing with mine for half the day, while trying to keep the engine timing, I found out that I had the crank 180 degrees off of TDC "compression". With crank at TDC compression, this puts the key on the camshaft in the 11~12 o'clock position. Next, I marked the gear and chain for both intake and exh gears so as to keep timing, then remove the bolt for the intake VVT gear, pull the gear out of the camshaft, remove/suspend the chain to prevent it jumping on the exh gear. Finally, rotate the loosened intake gear such that the "key hole" on the gear is at the 5 o'clock position, this allows the gear to clear both the timing chain cover and the camshaft key.
Thank you for the info, i will keep this in mind for next time. I know i will need to do this at some point in chassis.
I noticed that the Canadian 2az in the 11+ cars recommend 0w20 oil and the earlier 2az suggest 20w30 or 0w20 oil. The 2az are bad for the vvt cam gear rattle, mostly with them the pin wears a groove into the material though.
Yeah, it's really frustrating that the configuration does not allow for a proper spring rate to be installed in a way that prevents the valve from sitting in a position other than fully open or fully closed. If this does not fix it I'll need a two part pin would require more pressure to open than to hold it open.
So much for Toyota reliability, right? These repairs can get really expensive fast.
Thank you for the video! So where we can get those springs to change?
Hello from Japan and thank you for making this video it’s insanely formative my new Alphard will be delivered soon with 2AR engine which will eventually make this rattle sound. I’m a bit worried but oh well I probably trade it off.
Most of the 2AR-FE engines never have this issue. Make sure you regularly get the engine up to full temperature and keep it there for a while for best engine life.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks you mean run the engine?
@@Hoshibangs14 some people think that an engine that just takes a little old lady to church and back once a week is a good engine. Those engines are the one most likely to have a ton of buildup inside the engine because they never get up to temperature. I don't know what the car usage patterns look like in japan but if you are in a situation where all trips are short trips make sure you occasionally take longer trips with it to keep it up to temperature for long enough to get all the moisture out of the oil and just generally keep things clean.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks thanks I will take your advice to take a long trip around Japan with family. It’s probably the best advice I have ever received here on UA-cam. Cheers!
I get this funky rattle under load when engine is hot . Is this the issue or related to the issue with my 2ARFE
Any advice on extracting vvti solenoid that is stuck,and broken off
From what I understand, the spring was designed too weak to lock the pin. The other part is the pin too big and the hole too small, hence it binds.
Id like to eliminate both vvt gears on my 2012 camry 2.5 is this possible and can you tune my ecu for non vvt?
Has it been rattling long? The reason I'm asking is that I didn't see any signs of wear/damage and mine has the cold start rattle, too. I've also been hearing about people just leaving the engine alone and that this issue doesn't actually cause reliability or longevity issues. Thanks and great channel!
Unfortunately i don't know the answer to that. The motor has been rattling as long as i've had it but it only spent about 3 weeks in the car before i pulled it out to test out the 2AR-FXE build instead.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Understood and thank you for replying back!
How is new spring holding up? I could not find it on your website .
He says to fill out the contact forms on his website for purchasing the spring.
At about a million points in this video,I would have had the dang springs go sproinging off, and have to shove a bunch of pen springs in there to replace them.
if it makes you feel better i did have one spring go sproinging off but I edited it out. It was while i was measuring spring pressures on the test fixture.
Hello. I am from the UK could you send me the size of the springs so that i could buy it somewhere in the UK. Thanks!
What was the original issue?
Love the content Marc. I feel like you have been neglecting 2GR R and D. 2AR is cool and all but I feel like there are a lot more SW20 2GR swappers out there. Regardless, wonderful content and very interesting.
Launce, I've literally just released a new flywheel for the 2GR and also a new accelerator pedal assembly for the SW20 swaps. I'm not ignoring the 2GR, the 2AR is a fun motor to play with that responds very well to mods and the architecture is very similar to the 2GR so lessons learned will be applicable over to the 2GR when i get there. Things like figuring out the right kinds of spring seat pressures necessary and what needs to be done to the valvetrain to get it to rev to the moon without a rapid unscheduled disassembly event. Plus, my race car has a 2AR, not a 2GR.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks totally understand and I am one of your customers including recent purchase of your flywheel and soon pedal setup. I should have been more explicit by saying video content vs. R and D. My bad. Hope you have some new 2GR videos really soon!
@@FrankensteinMotorworks well I, for one, am very excited for this spring info now, as I either have ridiculous rattle or my bottom end is knocking :( :( :( :( :(
@@mrkazman I don't have enough testing done yet to have the springs for sale but if you're wanting to try it yourself i'm happy to sell you a set of springs.
Do I have to unlock vvti cam gear before install or woul it unlock itself?
How can I get this or send and pay to have you do rebuild the cam gear
Hi ,I have 2009 2arfe, with severe oil consumption, can I reduce the problem by doing bg engine flush procedure, also curious what year toyota resolved this problem because I'd like to replace motor with a good used one ,any advice
Severe oil consumption is really only an issue for very underutilized engines that never or rarely properly get up to temperature. It isn't actually a widespread problem. My advice would be to replace it and then just make sure you regularly get the engine up to full operating temperature.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks I realize that to a point but the 4cyls,had or maybe still have low tension oil rings,do you have any insight into when or if they started using rings that didn't have the stuck ring senaro?
Hi,Do you sale the 2GR 2.5 Cam Gear Spring?
Did you test the springs in the 2AR?
Yes, these springs are installed in four different 2AR motors out there and it seems to properly fix the problem.
After that? What happened to the result of your hypothesis? Did the rattling FIXED?
Have you done a video on how to unlock the gear ?
I know i'm incidentally shown it a few times but i've never really properly focused on it. The factory service manual does a really good job explaining it. If you send me an e-mail or contact me through the website I'll be happy to send you a copy of that part of the manual. I'd put it here but i can't attach an image to a youtube comment.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks thank you man. I have the TSB for it but the suggested method didn’t work for me. Been frustrating as hell. I’ll just have to experiment. Should have just bought yours
Do these engines have the little plastic oil filter for the VVT oil circuit like the UZ engines? (FILTER, OIL CONTROL VALVE
15678-46020)
yes, they have a mesh filter in the #1 cam cap.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks might be worth comparing rattle vs non-rattle filters and / or logging the oil pressure to the actuator just to see if there is anything going on
@@allan80supra The filters have a pretty much identical mesh. The plastic carrier is a bit different because it sits in a different place in the engine but even that is pretty similar. The 2AR's vvt-i oil pressure is more or less impossible to log because it never exits the block. Also, once oil pressure comes up there's no control issue, the issue is before the oil pressure builds fully. You can hear the issue very clearly at 18:53 in this video: ua-cam.com/video/zOfbP0Tgye8/v-deo.html
@@FrankensteinMotorworks doh... well good luck with the spring fix, I guess your other option is add an oil accumulator with the solenoid so it primes before start and a nice to have on a race car anyway... but my mind was just blown at the cost of the moroso accumulator valve on summit!
@@allan80supra One thing that probably wasn't clear with this video is that with the bigger cams the issue isn't just at startup but it is the same issue. That's why it became necessary to fix it right away. So unfortunately in that case a startup accumulator would not address it. There are people that have actually fixed their stock AR motors that way though because even an expensive accumulator is cheaper than paying someone for a phaser replacement. I do have some thoughts on an integrated accumulator for this motor that i would like to make at some point.
did you ever find the correct spring to eliminate the issue?
The spring that i found has worked well for the engines it has been used in so far.
Hey buddy. Recent subscriber. I'd like to inquire about the springs you had in testing. My '13 Camry 2AR rattles on cold start (even in Florida heat) 0w20 oil, always full on dipstick and changed every 5k. Owned the cat since 57k miles and now has 105k miles. I check your website briefly but didn't see anything about the springs.
Would it be best to get the spring from you and also install a new cam gear? I haven't inspected mine but the noise goes away in +/- 1 second so maybe no notice damage yet.
I didnt see the springs on your site. Are they available?
You can reach out to me via the contact form on my website if you want to buy them. Unfortunately these have turned out to not be worth the amount of support time they take to sell. But if you want to buy them without installation support i can sell them to you for $25. frankensteinmotorworks.com
Hey bud. Is the solution to install these custom springs into a brand new Genuine cam sprocket? My noise is very minor and only on cold start for say, less than 1 full second. 114k miles and I do want to keep her going as long as possible.
Can you send part's to Nigeria through DHL or Jumia
3 years later. I checked your site for the springs and didn't see them. Did this not fix the rattle?
It fixes the rattle for most people but the amount of hand-holding required to help people through the installation is ridiculously high so i no longer sell them.
@FrankensteinMotorworks Lol. Damn that sucks. Guess I'll just buy a new gear or experiment on my own. Thx for your input on this video and response.
I changed timing chain tensioner on 2014 Rav4 and sound goes away
Right, the phasers aren't the only reason why engines can rattle.
How is the testing going?
I actually haven't put another motor together since this but I will be putting together a motor with upgraded cams in a few weeks and I'll be installing these in there.
are you referring to the Toyota tick?
no, this is the startup rattle, not the "sowing machine" sound that is normal when the engine is running. You can hear it in this video at 18:53: ua-cam.com/video/zOfbP0Tgye8/v-deo.html
@@FrankensteinMotorworks That sounds really familiar, if not, the exact same as the startup rattle on early (2009-2010) 2ZR's. In the case of the 2ZR, Toyota addressed the issue around late 2010-early 2011 and I believe any 2ZR 2011 and above no longer have the startup rattle. Is it the same situation with the 2AR or did Toyota never address the issue with an updated cam gear?
@@nobelium8028 they technically did address it but the problem is still there. I haven't gotten my hands on a pre-TSB phaser yet to be able to see what the difference actually was. I am looking for one and if there's interesting information when i find one i do plan on sharing it.
Unfortunately my fix is more of a band-aid. The fact that the backing plate that the spring rides on moves is a problem and the fact that there's a pressure dump that isn't balancing both sides of the solenoid pressure can't really be fixed without a significant change.
I will also keep looking to see if i can find a phaser with a design that looks more like the 2GR-FE that could be repurposed for the 2AR-FE but so far there is no luck in that direction. the "Vee" motor phasers are completely different and the updated phasers in the A25A are so different they could not reasonably be retrofitted.
Hi mate do you have these springs for sale ? Dealer wants 500$ AUD for the cam gear
Did the springs fix the 2ar start up rattle?
Yes, It fixed my issue.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks My 2014 Camry was making the noise , Toyota dealer put new cam gear on under warenty, at 60k at 80 still making noise on start up , one morning crank it up and lost compression. im sure all the intakes are bent. i love these SV40S AND 50S but want to fix this issue. would like to by the pair of springs from you
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Me too! Got a 2009 RAV4 with the rattle. The updated Gear is out of stock in the whole continent.
I'm getting startup rattle on my 2GR 😢
The 2GR is a different design and should not suffer from the same issues. If you're having rattle on a 2GR and you haven't recently done an oil change you should change your oil and filter and also clean out the vvt-i filters and if the rattle does not go away you should change out the offending phaser(s)
Only made in USA car rattle at cold start
any updates on this , or did you just end up using the updated cam phaser from toyota?
It seems to have fixed the problem for most people that have tried it but the reality is it isn't worth selling these because of the support they take for what they cost.