Another perspective on Beauty and the Beast--as a feminine hero archetype: Beauty is an approach to any Beast/Dragon. Instead of slaying it, you come to know it as a gift, a partner and an ally that you procreate and rule with. That's kind of the most badass hero in the world, because it is extremely creative at its core, and it is available to all genders and every person.
Nice comment! So true. Its so frustrating when the neo feminist types go on about those classic fairytales as being sexist - its a pure reflection of their own psychological immaturity and externalised identity, for them to not be able to see the blatant mythical and esoteric archetypal ideals expressed in those fairytales. And I also know NO child/young girl that developed any suppressive ideas about the women because they watched the films of the stories/read the books. NOT ONE. They even bloody fabricate the problem (no doubt a shadow projection of the fact that they are destroying their OWN relationship to their OWN feminine... sigh)
The whole idea of the woman taming the beastly man seems to be far from a modern concept. the primary reason I say this is because of the tarot card strength. In that card is a picture of a young woman holding back a large lion, which I feel is an embodiment of that same concept.
I watched this live, Did anyone else think he was holding back the tears at the end there, talking about his daughter? It's nice to see, makes me so happy for him.
A great source of numerous female hero archetypes is Norse Myth, the Sagas and the Prose and Poetic Edda's. The story of Freya and her husband Óðr, Frigga and her son Baldr (much like Mary and Jesus) are especially meaningful. The story of Sleeping Beauty is rooted in Brynhildr of the Volsung Saga, very much worth the read.
If you look at Wagner's Ring cycle (heavily inspired from the Norse Myths) Brunnhilde in fact becomes the primary Hero of the story. Not Wotan, Siegfried, Siegmund, Freya, or any of the more "Heroic" characters, but Brunnhilde, the sleeping Walkure turned mortal who completes the cycle of destroying Valhalla, and ushering in Gotterdammerung, the end of the God's and the rise of Man.
The first archetypical hero in history was a woman, despite all beliefs to the contrary. She was the Sumerian Goddess Inanna. She was known to the ancient Babylonians as Ishtar. Moreover, her archetypical descent into the underworld to confront her dark sister Ereshkigal predates the epic Babylonian heroic myth of Gilgamesh. And even more interesting, many prominent scholars believe that the writer of the Inanna/Ishtar myth, or at least the individual who set the oral tradition to cuneiform, was probably a woman priestess. A very good modern adapted version of the myth can be found here: www.amazon.com/Esthers-Descent-Sisters-Myths-Levant-ebook/dp/B078RH35GW And further background of the Sumerian/Babylonian documents can be found here: www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1521311003&sr=8-1&keywords=Wolkstein%2C+Diane%2C+and+Samuel+Noah+Kramer www.amazon.com/Ishtar-Gods-Heroes-Ancient-World-ebook/dp/B073FN6Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1521311065&sr=1-1&keywords=Ishtar+by+Louise+M.+Pryke
I am very surprised that more people do not watch your videos. I have learned so much from you because of the way that you articulate your points. Aside from using statistics science, +history+ personal examples to state your claim (making your arguments bulletproof as they should be), I really like the way you fragment information and "water it down" to eliminate "posh" rhetoric, so there is no room for confusion or "alternative interpretations" (even though people try to do that anyways) . I learn a lot from you. Than you :)
+Jasmine Tunac these things are due to Dr. Petersen. My way of helping is to help people find what he's shared about particular subjects. I want people to be able to find what he said about particular things, so I make separate videos for each subject and tag them to make them easy to find.
When I think about female heroes I think more about personal sacrifice for the good of someone else. So, in the story of Moses, G-d tells mosses to circumcise his sons or G-d will kill them. Moses is completely unwilling to cause his son's pain, even if it will save their lives. Moses wife performs the circumcisions because Moses won't, and to lets him know of her unhappiness, by throwing the foreskins at Moses feet. In my book, the female hero archetype. I also love the story because it's hilarious. Any woman who "does what she has to" to save her children/ the world, especially in the face of sacrifices.
Jane Doe to separate ourselves as women, from humanity, is not only sad, but self destructive and unwise. Me for myself never produced much in promoting civilization or short term civility with others. As a society we are like a large family, with those we identify well with, your crazy MIL who thinks she came from outer space but whom you enjoy her present, the drunk Charismatic brother who's jokes are funny but a little inappropriate, the sister who is cheerful and bubbly and always PC on the exterior but sad and hurt and may stab you in the back if you get too close, your mother who's a religious, but needs to control everything because she feels lost. So society is. You do not disown them, simply because they are different. You find the value in each of them, love people from a distance who can be destructive, and if you need to step up to fill a gap, do so. Not just for the ladies, but for anyone. Btw, my charismatic alcoholic brother is a much less destructive force in my family than my bubbly always PC sister.
Jane Doe women making sacrifices for their own benefit does exactly that. When people think of heroism they often pair that with some element of selflessness. It may be for the ultimate good of the hero, but it is rarely the point. Sacrifices for others is a common theme of heroism.
For all of this complaining about why the hero archetype is typically ascribed to a male figure, it's because it's a masculine personality. Now men, biologically, are more prone to have masculine personality traits than females. However, the emphasis is on the masculine NOT on the gender. If you're a masculine female, you can find yourself relating closer to the masculine archetypes (hero, wise old man, magician) and if you're a feminine man you're relate more to feminine archetypes (nurturer, healer, etc). It's just LESS common to find this cross-relation. I do think there's some psychological truth to those who don't feel connected to the traits inherent to their gender, either from some hidden shame or they haven't fully integrated their masculine/feminine counterpart
Visionary Tribe - nah, who wrote the stories? who were they written for? Answer those two questions, and all will be clear. It will also answer why you have the hag wife and evil mother-in-law stereotypes.
Thats what feminists dont understand. Its not the different genders that are important to represent in media, its the different personality types. If you can really only identify with someone if they have the same gender, ethnicity, sexuality, skin color, as you you should work on your empathy skills. (also, you might be a sexist racist bigot)
This was very big evil force some kind of alein spirit was involved in this i thank God for you thank you for your help I am remembering everything now what happened and what was going on
@ Jordan Peterson- what would you say that todays heroines are females, who can harmoniously imbody "Marry" as a woman and manifest openly with Her femin qualities like empathy, "weeknes", softnes, sensuality and in the same time not be eaten by "the men predators", be able to deal with rude guys and not putting herself in danger without avoiding "the world", setting tej boundries straight but without agression, beeing spirytualy so strong so she is not manipulated by culture that devouring moral standards and herself and most of all- she can really Control herself, can think rational and not allowing Her emotions that are "bigger" than men's Control Her actions?
What About the Mary Magdalene Can she be a hero By the way she showed gratitude and love towards Christ I so much desire to get a glimpse of her and Christ The way she understood her Sin was so great and how forgiveness brought her down to her knees in gratitude
The female hero archetype comes in three forms: 1. the woman who aids/supports the male hero on his Hero's Journey (ex. Beauty and the Beast)2. the woman who takes on many traditionally masculine traits and becomes a hybrid male hero (ex. Lara Croft).3. the mother protecting and possibly sacrificing herself for her family. Only number 3 is innate to females of the species.
I have noticed a change in your videos lately and wasn't able to pinpoint what it was until just now. I do not in any way mean this to be a criticism but I have noticed lately a certain amount of maybe franticness for lack of a better word creeping into your videos. Not in your thoughts... they are as always great fuel for though, self Eva
I find this irks my sensibilities. So as a woman, my primary and most important role is to have children and sacrifice myself and my interests for them? What if I have no maternal instincts? Many women don't. Many men feel more paternal than many women feel maternal. Does that make them less heroic? I feel these archetypes are socially constructed rather than holding any psychological truth to them. Kind of like religion and it's role to control people and their roles in society. It's pretty irrelevant now I feel.
Many men feel the same about their hero archetypes... the pressure to perform overwhelms them, they might prefer a feminine archetype. Unfortunately for them, they don't really get as many opportunities to mate if they do--because the biology is inherently biased: only women can carry a human baby--and give birth to one. This means their investment in procreation is higher, and so is their selectivity... causing the overall relatively limited supply in female sexual availability relative to male availability. Do most women prefer a partner who is more developed along the male hero archetype lines than they are?... If so, it's probably because they can afford to... which still doesn't answer why this would be what they want. Do our narratives tell them to want this, or help us understand why they do?
The archetype is just that - an archetype. It's not a rule that holds for all people, and Peterson makes that clear in many of his speeches on this topic (I'm not sure that this clip includes him saying that). Even when he talks about gender differences being 'highly significant', those are often differences of something like 60-40% (such as the likelihood that a random woman is higher in agreeableness than a random man). Humans are so complex there is no one size fits all.
kentocky So I have come to the same position as you have. I am a guy who deeply wants children, and take care of them, but my own father never really was home when I was a child. He didn't spend much time with me because he was busy being the breadwinner. It irks me that as a guy, I am expected to be the breadwinner and provider and sacrifice most my time to work and not see my children as much. Most people do not feel the same way due to the fact of our history and evolution, so in a sense we are outliers of the average. These archetypes worked in ancient times, but are no longer neccessary in modern civilization. You will still see people cling to this because of our evolutionary past. We have only had this kind of science for like ~500 years.
How old are you? I've heard stories of women who decided to not have children, but then had the experience at age 30 or so of playing with their young niece or nephew and bursting out in tears afterwards, realizing that they wanted children.
kentocky Well there is also the archetype of the female who lacks maternal instinct, rejects femininity, tries to be masculine but fails to do it very well since she is not a man, and is reviled and/or pitied by society as a result.
Another perspective on Beauty and the Beast--as a feminine hero archetype: Beauty is an approach to any Beast/Dragon. Instead of slaying it, you come to know it as a gift, a partner and an ally that you procreate and rule with. That's kind of the most badass hero in the world, because it is extremely creative at its core, and it is available to all genders and every person.
Blake Adams So... Daenerys Targaryen?
Nice comment! So true. Its so frustrating when the neo feminist types go on about those classic fairytales as being sexist - its a pure reflection of their own psychological immaturity and externalised identity, for them to not be able to see the blatant mythical and esoteric archetypal ideals expressed in those fairytales. And I also know NO child/young girl that developed any suppressive ideas about the women because they watched the films of the stories/read the books. NOT ONE. They even bloody fabricate the problem (no doubt a shadow projection of the fact that they are destroying their OWN relationship to their OWN feminine... sigh)
nah, it's just bioware thing. They have always been doing this.
The whole idea of the woman taming the beastly man seems to be far from a modern concept. the primary reason I say this is because of the tarot card strength. In that card is a picture of a young woman holding back a large lion, which I feel is an embodiment of that same concept.
madsli
Yes I would say that's a classic
A unicorn and a virgin - considering the ending of the story, it's still very accurate)
I watched this live, Did anyone else think he was holding back the tears at the end there, talking about his daughter? It's nice to see, makes me so happy for him.
Aaron Woods
Oh definitely. And yes, he's such an awesome person.
Also Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes PhD is a great read about women archetypes!
A great source of numerous female hero archetypes is Norse Myth, the Sagas and the Prose and Poetic Edda's. The story of Freya and her husband Óðr, Frigga and her son Baldr (much like Mary and Jesus) are especially meaningful. The story of Sleeping Beauty is rooted in Brynhildr of the Volsung Saga, very much worth the read.
Gweilo Xiu Probably the most robust heroines in a mythical context.
If you look at Wagner's Ring cycle (heavily inspired from the Norse Myths) Brunnhilde in fact becomes the primary Hero of the story. Not Wotan, Siegfried, Siegmund, Freya, or any of the more "Heroic" characters, but Brunnhilde, the sleeping Walkure turned mortal who completes the cycle of destroying Valhalla, and ushering in Gotterdammerung, the end of the God's and the rise of Man.
The first archetypical hero in history was a woman, despite all beliefs to the contrary. She was the Sumerian Goddess Inanna. She was known to the ancient Babylonians as Ishtar. Moreover, her archetypical descent into the underworld to confront her dark sister Ereshkigal predates the epic Babylonian heroic myth of Gilgamesh. And even more interesting, many prominent scholars believe that the writer of the Inanna/Ishtar myth, or at least the individual who set the oral tradition to cuneiform, was probably a woman priestess. A very good modern adapted version of the myth can be found here:
www.amazon.com/Esthers-Descent-Sisters-Myths-Levant-ebook/dp/B078RH35GW
And further background of the Sumerian/Babylonian documents can be found here:
www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1521311003&sr=8-1&keywords=Wolkstein%2C+Diane%2C+and+Samuel+Noah+Kramer
www.amazon.com/Ishtar-Gods-Heroes-Ancient-World-ebook/dp/B073FN6Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1521311065&sr=1-1&keywords=Ishtar+by+Louise+M.+Pryke
First *recorded*
@@shiskeyoffles “And that’s not an insignificant thing!”
It's not too dissimilar to male hero archetypes in that both genders require the balanced union between their masculine and feminine qualities.
I thank God and Our Lady for Prof. Peterson
janice scott-collier Amen! 🙌🏼 😊
Thank you for this video. Learnt a lot
I am very surprised that more people do not watch your videos. I have learned so much from you because of the way that you articulate your points. Aside from using statistics science, +history+ personal examples to state your claim (making your arguments bulletproof as they should be), I really like the way you fragment information and "water it down" to eliminate "posh" rhetoric, so there is no room for confusion or "alternative interpretations" (even though people try to do that anyways) . I learn a lot from you. Than you :)
thats because he just uploads someone elses stuff. the guy in the vid is Jordan B. Peterson.
+Jasmine Tunac these things are due to Dr. Petersen. My way of helping is to help people find what he's shared about particular subjects. I want people to be able to find what he said about particular things, so I make separate videos for each subject and tag them to make them easy to find.
When I think about female heroes I think more about personal sacrifice for the good of someone else. So, in the story of Moses, G-d tells mosses to circumcise his sons or G-d will kill them. Moses is completely unwilling to cause his son's pain, even if it will save their lives. Moses wife performs the circumcisions because Moses won't, and to lets him know of her unhappiness, by throwing the foreskins at Moses feet.
In my book, the female hero archetype. I also love the story because it's hilarious. Any woman who "does what she has to" to save her children/ the world, especially in the face of sacrifices.
Jane Doe Men have been dying for women for ages.
Jane Doe to separate ourselves as women, from humanity, is not only sad, but self destructive and unwise. Me for myself never produced much in promoting civilization or short term civility with others. As a society we are like a large family, with those we identify well with, your crazy MIL who thinks she came from outer space but whom you enjoy her present, the drunk Charismatic brother who's jokes are funny but a little inappropriate, the sister who is cheerful and bubbly and always PC on the exterior but sad and hurt and may stab you in the back if you get too close, your mother who's a religious, but needs to control everything because she feels lost. So society is. You do not disown them, simply because they are different. You find the value in each of them, love people from a distance who can be destructive, and if you need to step up to fill a gap, do so. Not just for the ladies, but for anyone. Btw, my charismatic alcoholic brother is a much less destructive force in my family than my bubbly always PC sister.
Jane Doe women making sacrifices for their own benefit does exactly that. When people think of heroism they often pair that with some element of selflessness. It may be for the ultimate good of the hero, but it is rarely the point. Sacrifices for others is a common theme of heroism.
Jane Doe if you don't like his analysis, create a new ideal.
Jane Doe what kind of argument is that? You don't even sight who you agree with, or on what points.
Superb analysis.
The Goddess Sophia. Yes, she made a mistake, but she will fix it with her male consort.
For all of this complaining about why the hero archetype is typically ascribed to a male figure, it's because it's a masculine personality. Now men, biologically, are more prone to have masculine personality traits than females. However, the emphasis is on the masculine NOT on the gender. If you're a masculine female, you can find yourself relating closer to the masculine archetypes (hero, wise old man, magician) and if you're a feminine man you're relate more to feminine archetypes (nurturer, healer, etc). It's just LESS common to find this cross-relation. I do think there's some psychological truth to those who don't feel connected to the traits inherent to their gender, either from some hidden shame or they haven't fully integrated their masculine/feminine counterpart
Visionary Tribe - nah, who wrote the stories? who were they written for? Answer those two questions, and all will be clear. It will also answer why you have the hag wife and evil mother-in-law stereotypes.
mark grant Which is where there aren’t just as many negative masculine archetypes? The tyrannical father doesn’t exist?
Thats what feminists dont understand. Its not the different genders that are important to represent in media, its the different personality types. If you can really only identify with someone if they have the same gender, ethnicity, sexuality, skin color, as you you should work on your empathy skills.
(also, you might be a sexist racist bigot)
This was very big evil force some kind of alein spirit was involved in this i thank God for you thank you for your help I am remembering everything now what happened and what was going on
Great question and great answer!
I love female heroes.
@ Jordan Peterson- what would you say that todays heroines are females, who can harmoniously imbody "Marry" as a woman and manifest openly with Her femin qualities like empathy, "weeknes", softnes, sensuality and in the same time not be eaten by "the men predators", be able to deal with rude guys and not putting herself in danger without avoiding "the world", setting tej boundries straight but without agression, beeing spirytualy so strong so she is not manipulated by culture that devouring moral standards and herself and most of all- she can really Control herself, can think rational and not allowing Her emotions that are "bigger" than men's Control Her actions?
Hey boys, there's a reason women and men alike love long nails/claws :D
What About the Mary Magdalene
Can she be a hero
By the way she showed gratitude and love towards Christ
I so much desire to get a glimpse of her and Christ
The way she understood her Sin was so great and how forgiveness brought her down to her knees in gratitude
The female hero archetype comes in three forms:
1. the woman who aids/supports the male hero on his Hero's Journey (ex. Beauty and the Beast)2. the woman who takes on many traditionally masculine traits and becomes a hybrid male hero (ex. Lara Croft).3. the mother protecting and possibly sacrificing herself for her family.
Only number 3 is innate to females of the species.
Exactly, people also forget the importance of biology that plays an absolute importance as well, in both genders.
Ahh, the eggshell minefield of gender politics.
The Blessed Mother (Mary) is MY hero!!
JP... you really like Catholicism 😉
I have noticed a change in your videos lately and wasn't able to pinpoint what it was until just now. I do not in any way mean this to be a criticism but I have noticed lately a certain amount of maybe franticness for lack of a better word creeping into your videos. Not in your thoughts... they are as always great fuel for though, self Eva
Evaluation and thought experiment. It's in your voice. Maybe it's
Maybe it's the fact that you are constantly being called a nazy and that would get to any one. Just thought you might like to know. Always a fan.
This isn't a Jordan Peterson channel. Cheers for voicing your concern in any case!
Michael Resmini sometimes, I don't know, I'm working on it, is the best answer
I find this irks my sensibilities. So as a woman, my primary and most important role is to have children and sacrifice myself and my interests for them? What if I have no maternal instincts? Many women don't. Many men feel more paternal than many women feel maternal. Does that make them less heroic? I feel these archetypes are socially constructed rather than holding any psychological truth to them. Kind of like religion and it's role to control people and their roles in society. It's pretty irrelevant now I feel.
Many men feel the same about their hero archetypes... the pressure to perform overwhelms them, they might prefer a feminine archetype. Unfortunately for them, they don't really get as many opportunities to mate if they do--because the biology is inherently biased: only women can carry a human baby--and give birth to one. This means their investment in procreation is higher, and so is their selectivity... causing the overall relatively limited supply in female sexual availability relative to male availability. Do most women prefer a partner who is more developed along the male hero archetype lines than they are?... If so, it's probably because they can afford to... which still doesn't answer why this would be what they want. Do our narratives tell them to want this, or help us understand why they do?
The archetype is just that - an archetype. It's not a rule that holds for all people, and Peterson makes that clear in many of his speeches on this topic (I'm not sure that this clip includes him saying that). Even when he talks about gender differences being 'highly significant', those are often differences of something like 60-40% (such as the likelihood that a random woman is higher in agreeableness than a random man). Humans are so complex there is no one size fits all.
kentocky So I have come to the same position as you have. I am a guy who deeply wants children, and take care of them, but my own father never really was home when I was a child. He didn't spend much time with me because he was busy being the breadwinner. It irks me that as a guy, I am expected to be the breadwinner and provider and sacrifice most my time to work and not see my children as much. Most people do not feel the same way due to the fact of our history and evolution, so in a sense we are outliers of the average. These archetypes worked in ancient times, but are no longer neccessary in modern civilization. You will still see people cling to this because of our evolutionary past. We have only had this kind of science for like ~500 years.
How old are you? I've heard stories of women who decided to not have children, but then had the experience at age 30 or so of playing with their young niece or nephew and bursting out in tears afterwards, realizing that they wanted children.
kentocky Well there is also the archetype of the female who lacks maternal instinct, rejects femininity, tries to be masculine but fails to do it very well since she is not a man, and is reviled and/or pitied by society as a result.