I would like to formally apologize on the behalf of Casper who for some reason believed Hades would appear as the villain of the Ocean Saga. Wet Hades.
Odysseus of Ithaca! Do you know who I am? Chorus: Poseidon! Poseidon! Poseidon! Poseidon! Odysseus: ……Poseidon? Poseidon: Sigh. There goes the surprise.
I'm always mad because, in "Keep Your Friends Close", Ithaca is right there, and 593 men were about to make it (since 7 were killed by Polythemus). They were about to dock. Then, the bag is opened, sailing them right out of port. Poseidon shows up to beat his son's death count by killing 550 of them (50 per ship), leaving Odysseus with his 43. Those men just saw their home after 10 years then basically died within the same day.
@@lilydragon2129 The crew is definitely at fault here, but also, Odysseus should have trusted Eurylochus. If they had just taken shifts watching the bag, I doubt it ever would have been opened. Edit: In light of recent events, I would like to formally rescind my comment. Oopsie.
@@cojec Eurylochus is beginning to prove himself untrustworthy. In the Odyssey, he is the one who opens the bag, so even if Jorge is not following the original story exactly, Eurylochus is not a reliable person by this point in the narrative. He is turning the crew against Odyssey by talking behind his back, and he is undermining him.
@@HeadDetectiveLassie Ooh, I didn't know that! That makes a lot more sense, then. I do feel like Eurylochus is more trustworthy at this point, at least in EPIC. He seemed really concerned about Odysseus in Luck Runs Out. But then Ody was dismissive and pushed him away, so... maybe he was smart not to trust Eurylochus.
@@lilydragon2129 i mean its a 50/50, the crew is definitely at fault for opening the bag and choosing to disobey Odysseus, therefor making them go back to the land of the Giants. But Odysseus is also at fault for, as they said it, "doxxing himself" to a being he didn't kill. Plus in mythology, Cyclops and other giants like Hecatoncheires are directly related to deities, gods and even titans, so even if he didn't know who Polyphemus was, he should know better than to hurt it and reveal his name and location.
Even a real apology wouldn't save him, and Poseidon's response says basically that. "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible." = "You're so naive that you think an apology is your last hope for survival?"
It’s effectively dangling a way out as bait for Odysseus to take. To see if anything was learned between maiming Polyphemus and arriving at the Land of the Giants - evidently not, as the King of Ithaca is still trying to approach an angry god with Open Arms.
I'm not so sure about that. If the gods' word couldn't be trusted to be true (in a very specific and devious way), who'd even believe them when they pop up with a nasty prophecy? And PR-wise, drowning an entire fleet without leaving any survivor to confirm that it was Personal is kind of useless. My alternate theory is that the plan was to get the apology (maybe even some grovelling, as a treat!), kill everyone else, let Odysseus spread his tale of woe for a bit and get him later. But the apology doesn't come so Poseidon goes "well that's on me for having expectations, now I'm getting them all."
I'm not so sure about that. If the gods' word couldn't be trusted to be true (in a very specific and devious way), who'd even believe them when they pop up with a nasty prophecy? And PR-wise, drowning an entire fleet without leaving any survivor to confirm that it was Personal is kind of useless. My alternate theory is that the plan was to get the apology (maybe even some grovelling, as a treat!), kill everyone else, let Odysseus spread his tale of woe for a bit and get him later. But the apology doesn't come so Poseidon goes "well that's on me for having expectations, now I'm getting them all."
@@draeonic I don't think it was meant to be used as an example. I don't think Poseidon wanted to scare other mortals, most people already know, "Don't piss off Poseidon". I'm basing my speculation purely on what I've heard Jay say and how I understand it. Also, (this is probably blasphemy for me as a Hellenic Pagan) the gods are NOTORIOUS for dishonest and misleading behavior.
@@draeonic you're right only in that you need to trust posideons words "I have no mercy left to give", " I need to see you drown and bleed", "ruthlessness is mercy" listen to his words and you would know the apology is a test (which odyseus failed by applogiesing).
So true though! Now that I know what it is I keep hearing it everywhere in this song! Its not even a warning anymore, its just a sendoff- an ‘I told you so’ if you will-
24:22 Funfact, Athena and Poseidon hate each other VERY MUCH, so we can assume that she knew this would happen the moment Odysseus choose to keep the cyclops alive. I firmly believe that the reason why we heard the piano in that part is like an ''I told you so'' coming from Athena herself.
10:40 - One of the other reasons Poseidon referes to them as a pack of wolves is because Odysseus' maternal grandfather was the notorious thief, Autolycus, whose name directly translates to "the wolf himself." Telemachus is also referred to as a "little wolf" later on in Epic due to his descent. Autolycus himself inherited his thieving abilities from his own father, Hermes, who successfully stole from his older brother Apollo *very* shortly after being born on Olympus. So you can see where Odysseus gets some of his cunning!
Something I've seen some other commenters pointing out: the Greek word "apologia" means an answer, explanation, or defense, not an "apology" as we think of it in English. Of course, I also don't know how much classical Greek Jay has studied, so I'm not sure what his intentions were with this line!
@@calebmcmorris5956 I don't think Poseidon has a great-grandfather? Because the farthest the pantheon goes back is Gaia and Uranus, unless you're counting Chaos as a god?
@@calebmcmorris5956 Um what? That's not correct. Poseidon's grandfather was Ouranus, who had no father. So Poseidon doesn't have a great grandfather, nor would it have been a son of Aelous. Not to mention there would be no difference in paternal and maternal grandparents for Poseidon. His parents were Kronos and Rhea. Who were brother and sister. He only has one set of grandparents, Ouranus and Gaia, and no great grandparents. Aeolus came after the Primordials. Aeolus was Lord of the winds originally and wasn't considered a god until later. And even then, he's a minor god. Nothing as ancient as Primordials, which Poseidon's grandfather was a Primordial. There were actually three figures called Aelous in Ancient Greece. One of was a son of Poseidon, perhaps you're confusing him and got the story mixed up.
@@rachelong3755 They've gotta be confusing things. First there's no difference between paternal and maternal with Poseidon's lineage as his parents were brother and sister so his paternal grandparents are the exact same as his maternal grandparents. Ouranus and Gaia. Who had no parents, so paternal or maternal, Poseidon has no great grandparents. There was an Aoelus who was a son of Poseidon.
A bit of a fun fact about "I've been so gracious" is that it's not just referencing the way Odysseus and his crew have had calm seas on their journey to Troy and back. Mythologically, Ithaca was a port town, prosperous from maritime trading. Poseidon has not just been graceful to Odysseus's crew, he has been graceful to all of Ithaca for generations on end. This is perhaps a reason why he's so annoyed by the actions of the crew.
Athena and Poseidon had a sort of god game where they competed to get cities under their grace as patron deities and then flaunted them at each other. Ithaca as a port city should have been Poseidon's, but Odysseus chose Athena instead. Also, Odysseus for some reason didn't do any sacrifice to Poseidon when he diparted or returned to Ithaca, he didn't do it until nearly the end of the story. No wonder Poseidon had a bone to pick with him
@@Axindoor Yeah, I'm surprised Poseidon was even gracious. Maybe because unlike Athens, Odysseus didn't necessarily make Athena the patron God? Like Odysseus was friendly with her but I don't think the entire city was. It was kind of a personal thing between Odysseus and Athena
This happens in some versions the Odyssey. Without spoiling too much for Casper (And those who haven't read the origin material), Eurylochus is responsible of MANY *DUMB-A* actions that result in the punishment and death of the crew members. I believe Jorge will include some of said actions in future sagas! (Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker 😅)
That's EXACTLY what I suspected as well, or at the very least he actively avoided helping with the bag's protection, or further incited the divide between Crew and Captain
One thing I caught from the begining of the song was the background vocals saying "Poseidon" they say it seven times. Likely for the seven seas that he rules over.
I do think Poseidon was always going to kill them all at that point, the apology was just to make Odysseus admit he did something wrong. That's why the reply isn't to do with arrogance, it's telling him he's naive because he thinks he can talk Poseidon out of his rage. That's my interpretation tho.
@Shaphi95 it would not have mattered if he apologized or not. Posidon only said that to prove a point. He would not show mercy no matter what Odysseus said.
@@melissaf5331 we have no reason to believe Poseidon is not a God of his word. He has already been lenient with Odysseus so far, and he keeps throwing that leniency back into his face
I kinda see it as both. Yeah, There's no way Poseidon wouldn't kill him afterwards, but he's ALSO telling him that if he WERE serious about maybe sparring him, he wouldn't after him not even apologising and trying to weasel his way out of the situation
The apology isnt wrong because he isnt apologizing, but instead the problem is that he is actually refuting the song. He is saying "sorry, we shouldve been nice", in a song where poseidon constantly says "you are in this mess because you were too nice". In his apology, where he clings to open arms, odysseus spits in the face of the lesson poseidon is trying to teach him. In fact the "close your heart" is directly repeating Athena's "you should kill the cyclops" stance. Afterall, he couldve avoided all this, had he just killed his son. But noooooo.
Also even if he had apologized Poseidon wasn't going to spare him. He just sang a whole song about it. "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible". Odysseus is being naive to hope he'd be spared. Now maybe he would have just killed Odysseus if he had properly apologized. Who knows. But he definitely wasn't going to spare him.
In Greek mythology, Poseidon was one of the meaner gods. Unpredictable, like the Ocean. Hades is probably the least likely to mess with Odysseus. He was definitely one of the more reasonable gods. Unfortunately, Disney and other media has done Hades dirty.
Yeah, you gotta go out of your way to piss off Hades. I can only think of three people who managed to do it. One started raising the dead (Hades was fine with him healing the dying but drew the line at stealing souls from the Underworld). Another captured the god of death and created a world where no one died (in the process going back on his deal with Persephone to ressurect him for a day to say goodbye to his loved ones). The third wanted to kidnap Persephone (after helping his friend kidnap the then 12-year-old Helen of Troy). Not the kind of things the average Greek would get into. Most of the other gods are easy to upset by accident or liable to involve you in some scheme against your will.
@@BrandonVout Hades was very unfair to the son of Apollo, I mean yes, it is wrong for him to revive the dead. But THEN WHY DO YOU ALLOW FUCKING HERCULES TO TAKE YOUR SOULS WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES?!?
@anniefemmas5097 because he asked nicely. To be fair, he didn't do anything to Asclepius. He just talked to Zeus about it and Zeus decided it was smiting time.
It's because of Christianity's influence, any underworld god gets typecast as a sort of devil figure, whether or not that was their original role. Hades was feared, sure, death is feared, but was generally a passive god primarily concerned with maintaining balance. But to the ancient Greeks, a seafaring culture who regularly lost ships to storms, the ocean was scarier and more unpredictable than modern audiences see it as. Plus, if you die at sea, you don't get the rites to send you to the afterlife properly, and to the ancient Greeks that was a big deal.
CF, the Hades bit will haunt you until the end of time. Every comment section, every premiere, you will see his name. Yes, it will boost engagement. The algorithm will feast upon it in a gluttonous frenzy. But at what cost?
@@CFEntertains "I am your darkest moment, the monster that always draws near." Poseidon was just speaking to you too it seems. Man, that's unfortunate. Looks like you and the viewers will have to go on an Epic journey together to find peace from Poseidon's looming shadow. It might take 8 to 10 more years depending on who you ask. Good luck and Full Speed Ahead! Surely the next 2 sagas will be a nice and relaxing time to plan on how to face Poseidon.....right?
The funny thing is, Hades didn't use to exist, and in his place as the God of the sea and the underworld WAS Poseidon, he was married to an old version of persefone too (yep, persefone is older than hades)
The "When does a man become a monster?" is Poseidon using the nondiegetic voices in a really fucked up way. Those are the voices of Odysseus's dead crew, but not coming from their souls. He's fucking with Odysseus.
According to Jorge, Poseidon's instrument is trumpet, hence why the storm has the trumpet. But you are right, there are many instruments in this song. Ooh! And when Poseidon says 'had you just killed my son' there is the storm trumpet, telling you it was him who sent it.
Poseidon's instrument(s) is the brass, specifically the trumpets. They appear a lot in Ruthlessness, but they also appear in Storm (so just a little hint of who actually sent that storm). Also love you joining the EPIC fam ❤
Poseidon is the most protective of his children and in Greek it’s worse to blind someone then kill them And the gods and goddesses are use to their monstrous children being killed but Odysseus not killing Polyphemus was basically saying you are not even worth killing
After listening to this song 50 times I realized something. Right before destroying thr ships, Poseidon begins saying "And ruthlessness is..." but cuts himself off, the last word, "Mercy", only being said by the crew. They aren't finishing the lyric. They're begging for mercy.
Poseidon’s backing vocals are the Laestrygonians, actually-that is, the giants (whose land they were blown to by the storm). That’s why they’re deeper, kind of like the Cyclopes, which was Jorge put through a filter.
Fun (or not so fun depending on interpretation) fact The background vocals are actually diagetic, even though posiedon is a god, They are the aforementioned giants They are canibal giants knows as the Laestrygonians They are posiedon's grandchildren, Nephews to the cyclopes Also after "i mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son." You can hear on a soft guitar the storm motif This means Poseidon sent the stom, answering Odysseus' question in "storm"
Poseidon’s instrument is the trumpets!! Athena’s the piano and yesss I believe she is still looking after Odysseus kinda like a “I told u so” during the song when she told him to kill the cyclops!
Something I LOVE about gigi's style is their use of shapes to convey emotion. In art, the shape of a character is as important as color pallettes and details. Notice how they draw Aoelus. The design is very round, circular, without many sharp edges - the pants, the face and nose, even their eyes. Everything's smooth, because circles often makes a character look more friendly and approachable (think Steven Universe.) Then, look at how they draw Poseidon. He is full of triangular shapes and spiky bits, his face is angular and sharp, his eyes are narrow and smaller, hell, even his teeth are sharper. These sharper lines portray a character as harsher, colder, more stern, especially paired with the high-cheekbones and older look. It gives the sense of maturity, strictness, and can cause a viewer to take more caution when watching the character, and even give them a predatory and ominous air. Not to mention the color schemes - yes, they are both blue, but Aoelus is a lighter, more playful blue in their animatic than Poseidon's navys and blacks. URGHH I LOVE ART AND GIGI IS A GENUIS TL;DR: gigi knows how to work with shapes and it makes my artist brain tingle.
21:43 funny enough, she did. While being the goddess of Wisdom, Athena's pride is second only to her father, Zeus. She has a massive ego and has several stories about her pride causing her to make hasty decisions.
As someone who binges OverlySarcastic Productions, I remember that Hades didn't exist in mycenaean Greece, and Poseidon filled some form of Underworld god role in that pantheon. Wet Hades is more accurate than you know!
CF, I think you may be too harsh on Odysseus. As someone who has read the Odyssey, the other ships who get sunk did nothing wrong, but the crew Ody gets left with doesn’t get a lot of sympathy from me. He had brought them in sight of Ithaca, and they had to go and screw everything up because they didn’t trust him when he told them about the contents of the bag. Eurylochus might be to blame here in part for this, because challenging his King in front of his subjects in a difficult moment like he did in Luck Runs Out is a big faux-pas, especially in the context they in are at the moment and without offering an alternative. By doing this, he bolstered the crew’s distrust of Odysseus, and they didn’t listen when they should have done so because he was getting the job done and hid nothing from them. The end of act 1 happens because him trying to be somewhat kinder to the world brought him nothing but misery, so he throws away all the guilt he felt for Polites and the infant. With this I’m not saying he is perfect (what Greek hero isn’t - at the very least- extremely cocky and arrogant), he has made and will make huge mistakes, but this animosity seems a bit too much. And I’m not saying your feelings about this story aren’t valid, I just can’t fully see where they are coming from. I still love your musical analysis skill, btw. You clearly know what you’re talking about. Rewriting this because apparently I spoiled something.
Thank you so much for your comment! I missed your first one, but that's prob good if there were spoilers. It's mostly because he could've just killed the Cyclops when he had the chance - Dead Cyclops = Polites lives
@@CFEntertains And the main reason he didn’t was from the trauma of killing the infant. Personally I felt like Odysseus showing mercy to the cyclops was him trying to atone
@@CFEntertains I mean, Ody's chance to kill the Cyclops didn't come until after Polites's death, so killing Polyphemus wouldn't have brought him back unfortunately
That’s what I tried to say in my comment on the luck runs out reaction video!! 😮😮 I feel like out of everything that Odysseus has done, a majority has aided them or was in their best interest. It made me feel sad to see everyone seemed to dislike/distrust him.🥲 Although this video’s reaction and CF’s comment made me more aware of how heavy it was to lose Polites. I knew things changed but I did not realise it was to this degree. Grief is a strong emotion and i do understand better why they feel this way.🤔😶 Watching people’s reaction always gives me new insight which is why I love these so much. 🙂🙃
Just something funny for Mortius and Casper. After this song came out, a bunch of people were thirsting over the voice of Poseidon and saying, "I understand Sally Jackson now" 🤣
Compared to most of Greek mythology, Poseidon isn't often called out to settle grudges. While a lot of mythology surrounding him may seem that way, he's often just associated with the term laid back and will only do things to tell people, "Hey, you disrespected me! Don't do it again!" I think this is part of the reason that Rick Riordan portrayed the god as being the better father figure compared to his brothers when it comes to his kids. Also, Poseidon wouldn't have gotten involved unless Odysseus didn't mention his name. Once Odysseus had said that, Polyphemus prayed for Poseidon to delay Odysseus's return for as long as he could as punishment. It was Odysseus's own pride that brought about his ultimate downfall and his greatest enemy. Aelous even comments on this, because Odysseus did stop by his palace one more time to explain the bag situation, only for the god of winds to say, "You have been granted bad luck at sea because you angered Poseidon. Leave my palace at once!" So, really, Odysseus needs to put a rein on his impulses.
Nah, anyone who thinks Odysseus saying sorry would have spared a thing hasnt been paying attention to the ENTIRE REST OF THE SONG. Yeah the guy saying ruthlessness is mercy would have spared people thanks to a sorry.
The part where posidon gives odysseus a chance to apologize is to show that it doesn't matter what Odysseus says, he could have apologized with his whole heart, he could have told posidon to stick it where the sun don't shine, it wouldn't have made a difference, the outcome was going to be the same. And odysseus was being naive to think him apologizing, half-assed or not, would do anything to change what would happen. Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves. Posidon would not have spared odysseus or his men.
As others have mentioned, I don't think Odysseus not actually saying sorry mattered to Poseidon, because the whole point of the song was 'ruthlessness' - Poseidon was never going to let this go, and when Odysseus is speaking it's as a King: justifying his actions is tantamount to an apology. HOWEVER, I will add that (personally) I never thought to scrutinize that action until other people raised it because to me giving an actual apology in that situation is a terrible idea. I was coming at it from an angle of speaking with gods means that fae rules apply. Do NOT apologize. "Ah, yes, higher being, I am sorry, this situation is my fault and I am in the wrong." 'Ah, so you accept responsibility and thus agree you should be PUNISHED for your actions then? Good.' Like, nah, do not give them an opening to exact greater retribution. Deflect, talk around it, grovel, flatter, beg, acknowledge injury and justify why it happened but do not under any circumstances expose your own throat. (I also don't think Odysseus is at fault for Polyphemes, but that's besides the point.) Especially since he's had Athena as his patron since childhood, someone who puts a lot of value in cleverness (see: getting her to reveal herself in Warrior of the Mind), and is the great grandson of Hermes, god of (amongst many, arguably too many, other things) tricksters and liars; of course his reaction to a god is to explain himself and justify what happened. Reading/seeing others reactions, I get where they're coming from - definitely - because in real life, own up to your actions, give proper apologize. But, my first reaction was thinking Odysseus handled not apologizing very tactfully, and the idea of giving an apology to a god (especially one as eager to dole out punishment as Poseidon is in Ruthlessness) is making my fight-or-flight reflex vibrate XD
When it comes to a god who's determined to kill you I honestly don't think any response would matter lol Odysseus apologizes: Oh so you admit you're in the wrong? DIE Odysseus doesn't apologize, stands by his choice: Oh so you think you, a mere mortal, know better than the gods? DIE Realistically his only "choice" would have been not to offend the gods in the first place imo
Considering Odysseus’ issues are often a result of hubris, calling him an idiot is fair though the apology thing I feel like Poseidon would’ve liked it more if he went “Fuck you Poseidon I should’ve been ruthless and severed your son’s neck!!!” He would’ve liked that he was at least listening
The thing about the gigi vs AnniFlamma animatic debate really, to me, doesn't boil down to who designed Wet Hades better, but more so of how they incorporated the backup vocals as tangible characters, imo. I don't think any animator has (yet) animated any Laestrygonians (the Giants mentioned from the last song.) closest we get is here in Gigi's animatic where they create Nagakaboros type tentacles whenever the Laestrygonians sing. Edit: okay, Imma just say in case anyone hasn't noticed, Jay already posted this on Tiktok-The Storm Motif comes right after “Totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son, but nOOoOoo~”
I feel like you guys (and a lot of other people tbh) are being too harsh on Odysseus. I don’t mean to fight or disregard your emotions, I really like to discuss about this musical, so I’m sorry if it comes off as rude, that’s not my intention. In my opinion, the things that happen to Odysseus are bad, but the things Odysseus have done aren’t actually that bad. He leaves Troy after 10 years of war and tries to go home with his men, but they run out of food and they may starve if they don’t do something to fix it. He makes a reasonable “plan”, following the birds, because they would know where to get food. They then come to the Island of Lotus Eaters, and he is presented with two options: Raid the island or try to negotiate for food. He chooses to side with Polites and have a “friendly” approach, because he is still haunted by what had happened in war, and also because he had to kill a baby. Polites tries to make him more relaxed and positive, but you can see Odysseus struggles even when Polites is there to help him. The way he was raised and what Polites is trying to teach him are completely different. In the end, Polites kind of “proves” that things aren’t so bad if you just stay positive and believe that there’s kindness in other people (or creatures), so Odysseus accepts embracing Polites’s philosophy and see if it works out for him. Now, I think the reason why Odysseus accepts Polites’s ideas that easily is because being merciless didn’t work out at all for him. He doesn’t like hurting people, he doesn’t like being cruel, and he doesn’t know how to be better and get rid off his guilt. The other people around him (Athena and Eurylochus) can’t really help, since what they want from him was what made him feel terrible in the first place. Penelope and Telemachus aren’t with him, and he also wants to be good for them. He wants to be husband and a father that they deserve. He is still unsure about the open arms theory since it’s very strange to him, but he tries with going into the cave that the Lotus Eaters had talked about. He does feel suspicious, but he wants to believe in Polites. Also, even Eurylochus isn’t skeptical about the cave. So it makes sense that Odysseus was able to believe that there happened to be a cave that happened to be filled with sheep. It’s not very smart, but considering his emotional situation (also he’s at the beginning of his character arc) it makes sense. Not killing Polyphemus was also because of Polites. He wanted to continue the idea that his friend had planted in him. His fight with Athena and him lashing out to Polyphemus is all mostly because of grief. He also just barely saved his life and had to fight a giant monster to do that, the adrenaline rush is something to be considered. Till this point, Odysseus makes mistakes, but they aren’t because he is dumb or because he made terrible choices. He’s overwhelmed and trying to figure out so many things at the same time. He actually mostly makes good decisions, he does find them food and he does manage to escape from the cyclops with only a few of his men dying. Everyone is depending on him for everything and no-one is offering him better alternative solutions. It’s easy to judge characters when we are watching the story, but making those big decisions and actually mostly succeeding is very hard. Especially if you’re in Ancient Greece in a world where the myths are real. With Aeolus, he’s still the only one who has a plan to get pass the giant storm. Eurylochus brings up good points, but he never actually helps. He criticizes Odysseus in front of his whole crew, and basically tells everyone that, as the second in command, he doesn’t trust the captain to make decisions. Which is a pretty big thing, considering their doubt made them open the bag. He shuts down Eurylochus because he was being disrespectful, making the others doubt him, and wasn’t offering anything that is useful. On top of all these, Odysseus was actually correct about Aeuolus. He didn’t believe it would all be fun and easy anyway, the first thing he says when Aeolus mentions a game is “What's the catch?”. But overall, Aeolus was actually going to help him, if he only did this one small thing. Which would probably be possible had Eurylochus didn’t argue with him in front of everyone. They wouldn’t even confront Poseidon had everyone listened to Odysseus. Which is, well, fair to not trust someone blindly, but other than that one instance with the cyclops, Odysseus was a great leader. Even with Polyphemus, he was quick to fix it as best as he can. Poseidon being Polyphemus’s father is very unfortunate, but it’s more of a tragedy than Odysseus’s fault. Odysseus was in the wrong with telling his name, it was pretty unwise, but the consequences being this big wasn’t exactly in his control. It’s a situation where the worst possible thing that can happen, had happened, and it’s all because of that one vulnerable moment. Athena deciding to argue with him at that moment and her not understanding human emotions, Odysseus being emotionally unavaliable and needing time to cool off, Polites being the one who died instead of some other men, Poseidon being Polyphemus’s father… It’s all one big tragedy that couldn’t really have been prevented without everyone acting different than how they did before. Also a note, I think in Ancient Greece, apologizing generally means justifying what you did or making a sacrifice. Odysseus did apologize from Polyphemus and from Poseidon, but Poseidon wasn’t going to change his mind no matter what, since he has his own reasons for deciding to kill them.
In the end, everything is Polites' fault. Had he not told Odysseus to 'Open his Heart' then Odysseus never would have even considered mercy. Why would you listen to Polites and ignore Divine Sugar Momma???
Definitely agree, to be fair it is much easier to hold perspectives like this when you know the entire story front to back and have listened to this dozens of times. I think it is also difficult for people to see becoming more ruthless as a good quality in a modern world where most stories focus on the value of mercy and compassion and forgiveness against all evils, but the fact is this is a man at war. And as we have seen and will see later, this is necessary.
I will just say that technically odysseus isnt dumb hes prideful also being real he also probably knew that poseidon wouldnt have let them go even if he did apologize
People are saying that Poseidon gets brass instruments as his signature, but my understanding is that his main motif isn't actually an instrument - it's triplets. When Odysseus refuses to kill the cyclops in Remember Them, Athena's piano immediately switches into rapid triplets because she knows what the consequences are. I believe they're are also present in Storm to signify Poseidon's influence along with the trumpets, and they do feature heavily in Ruthlessness.
So poseidons l instrument is brass but just wanna say that in a recent video Jorge actually mentioned that triplets are connected to the concept of ‘ruthlessness’ in Epic so they are both present here as well as the part of remember them that you’re talking about so you are correct!
Another wolfy thing is that Odysseus' grandfather Autolycus' name means "the wolf itself" He's the same grandfather that actually named Odysseus after the wrath he himself feels. So because Odysseus is an extension of a wolf's wrath and his very own wrath wronged Poseidon's family. I always thought it might be a fun way of addressing the family of wolves and threatening the people Odysseus has at home too.
I see Odysseus' 'apology' as not understanding Poseidon at all. He talks about how they tried to do minimun damage, when Poseidon is saying he didn't do enough. It's definately an excuse, yes, but I think it also stems from trying to cling to open arms and 'we should try to find a way no one ends up dead' mindset. He isn't ready to be a monster at this point.
While I doubt Poseidon would've accepted any apology, he might maybe have given him a chance if he'd instead said "I'll go back and kill Polyphemus right now if you demand it. Or any other monsters. Give me twelve labours!"
As he is king, what Odysseus said to poseidon, to him, was an apology. He talks to other kings, and (presumably, I haven't read the Odyssey) his father was also king. In meetings like this, giving an explanation would be considered an apology
If you listen closly during Oddyseus "Apology" you can hear a dark choir like a bass choir or a tenor choir, what if that is poseidon's instrument, the sea is the choir always by Poseidon's side
The lyric "you are the worst kind of good, cause you're not even great" reminds me of a line from a story i heard years ago: "You are a walking second place medal." Both sentences mean essentially the same thing: You're decent at what you do, but you're not the best. You slip up and stumble just before hitting perfection. The embodiment of "not quite enough".
I've always thought that the "but no" was slightly annoyed. Like Poseidon is the father of all cyclopes, horses, Pegasus's, etc. on top of being the god of the seas. It felt like he wouldn't have cared as long as Odysseus gave him enough to ignore it. But Odysseus didn't, and now he's inconvenienced Poseidon into making a show of force.
Just want to say- cause it kills me- right before Ruthlessness- Odysseus had been awake for NINE DAYS and had only slept a little during the end of the last song- just- this poor man
Admittedly, at one point Poseidon was not only a Chthonic God but *_THE_* Chthonic God, ruling The Underworld. He was given the domain of the oceans in this context because it was believed that he was moving the very earth to create waves, so in a way Wat Hades isn't an *ENTIRELY* inaccurate way to describe Poseidon...
I like the “it very often I that I get pissed off” because that implies that usually what is does isn’t anger but just boredom or being petty, but this, this is anger
I'm not sure why you are so set on Hades being a bad guy. In greek mitologii he is one of if not the most responsible god, he only ever screwed over fiew people most of whom really deserved it. This is in no way related to musical, I'm just mad at people thinking Hades = devil
1-Posiedon's instrument is the trumpet 2-20:00 THE STORM MOFIT! (If I'm correct) Storm started with the trumpets and heavy brass and now here we hear trumpets for Poseidon. When Poseidon was saying 'I mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son" there's a 'BA BA BA BA BA' with the trumpet in the background of that which basically confirms that Poseidon DID in fact send that storm (idk when the fuck Polyphemus told him but oh well💀) because I think we were meant to believe it was sent by Aeolus? not sure. 3-Posiedon is such a petty little bitch. 23:52 Here I'm pretty sure these aren't Odysseus's soldiers, pretty sure that was brought up by Poseidon JUST to taunt Odysseus. 4-Love the reactions💙💙
Alright so he said 43 left under his command 557 men died under his command but for some little lore tidbits 7 died in "survive" each ship has 50 people and its a fleet of 12 and all the people who went into polyphemus cave were from odysseus flagship so 550 men were killed by poseidon the 7 others being the only who had died up till that point
I have seen other comments explaining this in depth so I’ll be brief: Odysseus needs more credit for trying to be a good person. He’s literally just trying to not murder people anymore. He’s trying to go home, leave the war behind him, get back to wifey. But EVERYONE except Polites (who died) has been trying to get Ody to become the monster. He’s just trying to be a good person but now literally everyone is telling him to stop. Whether they’re right or he’s right on how to save lives is another matter.
I think that it didnt matter the words he used on the apologice because the core idea of the song is Ruthlessness is mercy, this is not a lesson of forgiveness is a lesson of reality, and asking for mercy to posidon is not a great idea because ruthlessness IS mercy.
Okay so I'm very glad I got to be there to watch it happen, but also, the fact that you went back and pulled KARMA to replace it with Wet Hades in the video title after the fact, just to commemorate the premier chat roasting you AND YOU MAKING FUN OF YOURSELF along with everyone is truly incredible. You are a delightful human being.
@@F_doesnotwanttobehere7 🤣😭 yes I can't wait for casper to mean her... uhm let's just say someone that will be helping Odysseus. Herm- is my favorite character along with polites
I’m so excited, Ruthlessness is such a good song, each time I hear it I find myself thinking of a new perspective… (lyrically) and animatically* How people drew Poseidon is both amazing and terrifying!
First off I love your analysises, you have so much musical insight! But I feel like you (and many other people I've seen) are quite unfairly harsh on Odysseus. I don't mean to be malicious- of course your interpretation is completely valid and Odysseus is no saint, but; (if you'll bare with me) Odysseus really hasn't made that many bad decisions, not nearly as many as most blame him for. First of all he came from a 10 year war, then was forced to kill an infant (I know he "had a choice" but in Greek Mythology when it's the Will Of The Gods it's never actually a choice) so obviously he's already shaken. Then, despite all this and his upbringing where he was literally raised to be a heartless merciless "general" by a god who can't comprehend human emotions, he tries to adopt Polites' ideals of mercy. And whilst it may have been slightly stupid to accept that this cave of sheep just existed, 1) there was NO sign of it being otherwise occupied, and 2) he was in charge of 600 starving men. If you see food when you're starving, you take it. And then even after trying to negotiate with the Cyclops he ends up losing his best friend- only for Athena to instantly berate him for not killing the Cyclops, the only thing he could do at that moment to honour Polites' memory. Yes, doxxing himself was stupid, but it was a blind act of grief and wanting to feel in control. And then he lost his mentor- and NOT for saying his name, no, for the simple reason of not killing Polyphemus. At this point of course it seems to him like the universe is punishing him for even trying to be merciful. And then with the storm and Eurylochus- I agree that he should have addressed Eurylochus' concerns, but they were still in the middle of a raging storm that had to be immediately dealt with, and also Eurylochus really should NOT have been blatantly calling the leaders decisions stupid, not to mention whilst not even providing any alternate solution; he wasn't providing a plan, he was just against Odysseus'. And as annoying as it is, Odysseus was completely correct- the moment an army starts doubting the leader they WILL die. And we literally see this come true in the very next song, the army started doubting him, leading to them literally forcing him to go nine days without sleep, then sneaking up on him once he's passed out from exhaustion anyway, and completely derailing their progress when they were within sight of their home. (Also, in Ancient Greece an "apology" means providing an explanation; Odysseus DID apologise, Poseidon just doesn't care.) Sorry, this ended up being really long haha! Again, I really hope I didn't come across as confrontational! I really do enjoy discussing different viewpoints :]
that and in the odyssey, while gigi depicts two random crew members as the openers of the bag eurylochus was the one in the og story. which just shows even more how much he was undermining and pushing the limits with odysseus during this part.
@@ShadowFox1412 Eurylochus in myth is portrayed as both craven and cowardly - He undermines oddyseus, he refuses to rescue men from circe because he's afraid of her, and final of all he disobeys the orders and advice of the LITERAL UNDEAD PROPHET THEY VISIT. But that's because Eurylochus isn't meant to be a character. He's meant to represent the crew. The tired crew. The hungry crew. The crew that's losing faith in their leader because while he led them through the war, at this point they're the only crew that hasn't made it home yet. The crew that's homesick and done with the war. The crew that's scared for their lives and really don't care. The crew that thinks oddyseus is keeping secret treasure from a god-king of the winds. That's who Eurylochus represents in the oddysey. The men.
I’ve been binging your reactions since I stumbled across you a couple days ago, and you guys are awesome together. You have such a wonderful dynamic, and despite wanting to jump in when you get excited, you’re both so respectful of each other, and so playful together. I would love to see more of you guys together.
Part of the reasons that Anniflamas is so popular, besides being amazing, is that it came out a lot sooner then the other really good one. It preceded Gigis by about a month.
On the note of Odysseus being responsible for not killing the cyclops, hence leading to Polites' death (which seems to be Casper's main hang up with Odysseus), Odysseus WAS trying to kill the cyclops at the moment Polites was killed. All throughout Survive he is talking about how "it's just one life to take" showing how he is totally prepared to kill the cyclops. Polyphemus just proves to be too much for a small scouting crew to handle, despite their best efforts and all Odysseus' strategies (exhaust him, stay out of reach, attack from behind). Once Polyphemus brings out the club, it's game over. If it hadn't been for Odysseus drugging him with the lotus wine, they would have all died. It's not his fault the wine took a certain amount of time to kick in. What could he have possibly done to save Polites? Literally the only way is to not have gone into the cave in the first place (a cave they only went to bc of Polites' trust of the lotus eaters) and all of the 600 men would have starved. They NEEDED those sheep. Their food rations were completely gone and they still had a far way to sail. In the end its just a tragedy of circumstances and no one hates Odysseus for Polites' death more than Odysseus himself. He only chooses to spare the cyclops after Polites' death to keep his ideals alive. Also that was after they had just realized there were tons more cyclops in the cave. If they stayed longer to kill Polyphemus they were risking them coming back and everyone dying for just a shot at revenge. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to see if i could help put some stuff into perspective. Love your videos and your analysis. I don't want this to come off as antagonistic at all. I just wanted to point out that even though the events of Ruthlessness could have been avoided if Ody hadn't doxed himself in his grief (and the crew hadn't opened the bag) tragically nothing could have saved Polites.
To be fair about "Wet Hades" Poseidon was once an underworld god, that's why he is also the god of earthquakes and the underworld is known for its rivers.
This is very random but I just absolutely love you sharing this with Casper, it almost feels like I’m on FaceTime with yall observing this! I love how you two intently listen to one another. I’ve tried getting my friends to watch things with me like this but they never truly pay attention, so this is genuinely so relieving! I love showing people things I love hehe
Gigi wrote an animatic for monster too. Something interesting is that Poseidon here has the black “goo” that Odysseus “accepted” when becoming a monster.
17:18 the danger motif was actually in the very beginning of the song, in the lyrics when the backgroind vocals sings "Poseidon!" Its during the "-sei-don" part of the lyric Hope this helps! Edit: Posiedon's instrument is supposed to be a trumpet/brass too i believe
So this may be late but an interesting detail I saw; the call back to Just a Man is missing a line. "When does a ripple become a tidal wave? When does the reason become the blame? When does a man become a monster?" is the full lyric. I had this thought; a ripple became a tidal wave when the reason became the blame. Ody's apology could be interpreted as him blaming Polyphemus for him being blinded.
Calling Poseidon Wet Hades is actually kind of interesting & not totally inaccurate from a historical sense. Historically, the ancient Greeks we think of were predated by Mycenean Greece. Many of the gods from Mycenea were incorporated into the Greek pantheon we know of with some modifications. One major change was that, as far as I'm aware, there's no record of Hades in Linear B (the language of Mycenea), although there are records of gods who show up in the Greek pantheon, albeit differently. Poseidon was actually the god of the dead in Mycenea. It's also why Poseidon is associated with earthquakes. He was seen as a cthonic deity (that is, a deity from under the earth/world). Other Mycenean gods that show up later are Demeter, Persephone, and Zeus (although not as the king of the gods). I don't remember when Hades first showed up or when Poseidon's domain changed. Overly Sarcastic Productions did a really interesting look at that in their Hades & Persephone video (iirc). So yeah. Calling Poseidon Wet Hades actually has some historical basis. Fun fact!
I'm not gonna lie, I am pretty bummed that your initial reaction wasn't for Anni's version but I understand wanting to keep the consistency. Gigi killed it with this version, imo Anni's poseidon was far more intimidating. I guess Ill head to patreon to get that reaction! 😆
The gods seem to have a mix of different assigned instruments but i think they have prominent ones. Hermes' is a harp (you hear it in Puppeteer & Wouldn't You Like in the Circe saga, which indicates he's been watching the whole time), while Athena's is a piano. I noticed though that both Poseidon & Zeus seem to share an electric guitar & I think drums? This is either bc they're both brothers/one of the big three, or it attributes to both their elements & temperament (vicious & at most times unforgiving) & electric guitars & drums easily make such aggressive music
I adore the lyrics, especially “ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.” I’ve used that in my first dnd game im running as a family motto for the bbeg. Something about it feels like such an ancient saying. But I can’t find it anywhere else. The ability of Jay to write such natural lyrics for a rock opera style retelling of one of the most famous stories ever told. It grounds idly in a way that feels like it understands the history and gravitas without making it feel old.
Agreed. I've wound up using it rather frequently as a saying in a D&D context a lot now, usually when a player complains about enemies being too harsh.
Also love how he throws Odysseus' big line of "remember them" when only 30 of his men die. To when poseidon says it "Remember *Me*" after killing 530 of them
Disney Hades: "This is gonna sound real rich coming from me, but uh... I feel like I'm being misrepresented here." I saw everyone talking about all the different "Hadeses" and had to make this joke.😂
14:09 trumpets. Position instrument is troopers, and if you guys play attention, you can her the melody from.the song storm meaning position was behind it 12:30 Also I do not agree with you two here cuz Posidon would have kill them no matter what. "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" is Posidon ideology. No matter what reply Odyseus would have give him he would have kill everyone. That is also express from the start of the song when he said "I've been so greatest but yet you hurt the son of mine [...] I got to make you bleed I need to see you down [...] you could have avoid it all this if just kill my son". He want to revenge his kid, to teach odyseus about ruthlessness but he would have been fine if his son was killed by them.
Tbh Odysseys has nothing to apologize about he’s being prideful as well remember he is a king and doesn’t want to show his men that he’ll bow down to a god
Is this why people are spamming "wet hades" on my animatic?
Yeeeeep. This is all Casper's doing.
I'm still laughing at the joke, tbh.
I would like to formally apologize on the behalf of Casper who for some reason believed Hades would appear as the villain of the Ocean Saga. Wet Hades.
Not complaining btw
😭😭😭 I love your animatics
Yup
Odysseus of Ithaca! Do you know who I am?
Chorus: Poseidon! Poseidon! Poseidon! Poseidon!
Odysseus: ……Poseidon?
Poseidon: Sigh. There goes the surprise.
Funniest interpretation I’ve heard of this so far.
LMAO 😂 I AM WHEEZING!!!!
I should not have been drinking water while reading that-
Poseidon: seriously guys? We practiced this like eight times.
I'm always mad because, in "Keep Your Friends Close", Ithaca is right there, and 593 men were about to make it (since 7 were killed by Polythemus). They were about to dock. Then, the bag is opened, sailing them right out of port.
Poseidon shows up to beat his son's death count by killing 550 of them (50 per ship), leaving Odysseus with his 43.
Those men just saw their home after 10 years then basically died within the same day.
The worst part is, everyone blames Odysseus for that, but it was literally the crews fault that they chose to do that
@@lilydragon2129 The crew is definitely at fault here, but also, Odysseus should have trusted Eurylochus. If they had just taken shifts watching the bag, I doubt it ever would have been opened.
Edit: In light of recent events, I would like to formally rescind my comment. Oopsie.
@@cojec Eurylochus is beginning to prove himself untrustworthy. In the Odyssey, he is the one who opens the bag, so even if Jorge is not following the original story exactly, Eurylochus is not a reliable person by this point in the narrative. He is turning the crew against Odyssey by talking behind his back, and he is undermining him.
@@HeadDetectiveLassie Ooh, I didn't know that! That makes a lot more sense, then.
I do feel like Eurylochus is more trustworthy at this point, at least in EPIC. He seemed really concerned about Odysseus in Luck Runs Out. But then Ody was dismissive and pushed him away, so... maybe he was smart not to trust Eurylochus.
@@lilydragon2129 i mean its a 50/50, the crew is definitely at fault for opening the bag and choosing to disobey Odysseus, therefor making them go back to the land of the Giants. But Odysseus is also at fault for, as they said it, "doxxing himself" to a being he didn't kill. Plus in mythology, Cyclops and other giants like Hecatoncheires are directly related to deities, gods and even titans, so even if he didn't know who Polyphemus was, he should know better than to hurt it and reveal his name and location.
Even a real apology wouldn't save him, and Poseidon's response says basically that. "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible." = "You're so naive that you think an apology is your last hope for survival?"
It’s effectively dangling a way out as bait for Odysseus to take. To see if anything was learned between maiming Polyphemus and arriving at the Land of the Giants - evidently not, as the King of Ithaca is still trying to approach an angry god with Open Arms.
I'm not so sure about that. If the gods' word couldn't be trusted to be true (in a very specific and devious way), who'd even believe them when they pop up with a nasty prophecy? And PR-wise, drowning an entire fleet without leaving any survivor to confirm that it was Personal is kind of useless.
My alternate theory is that the plan was to get the apology (maybe even some grovelling, as a treat!), kill everyone else, let Odysseus spread his tale of woe for a bit and get him later.
But the apology doesn't come so Poseidon goes "well that's on me for having expectations, now I'm getting them all."
I'm not so sure about that. If the gods' word couldn't be trusted to be true (in a very specific and devious way), who'd even believe them when they pop up with a nasty prophecy? And PR-wise, drowning an entire fleet without leaving any survivor to confirm that it was Personal is kind of useless.
My alternate theory is that the plan was to get the apology (maybe even some grovelling, as a treat!), kill everyone else, let Odysseus spread his tale of woe for a bit and get him later.
But the apology doesn't come so Poseidon goes "well that's on me for having expectations, now I'm getting them all."
@@draeonic I don't think it was meant to be used as an example. I don't think Poseidon wanted to scare other mortals, most people already know, "Don't piss off Poseidon". I'm basing my speculation purely on what I've heard Jay say and how I understand it. Also, (this is probably blasphemy for me as a Hellenic Pagan) the gods are NOTORIOUS for dishonest and misleading behavior.
@@draeonic you're right only in that you need to trust posideons words "I have no mercy left to give", " I need to see you drown and bleed", "ruthlessness is mercy" listen to his words and you would know the apology is a test (which odyseus failed by applogiesing).
The "Danger is near" motif is so intense because it's more like "The danger is HERE." 🤣
It is VERY front and center, Mortius.
So true though! Now that I know what it is I keep hearing it everywhere in this song! Its not even a warning anymore, its just a sendoff- an ‘I told you so’ if you will-
@@cubicvox It's literally the fanfare of the danger. The introduction music.
Can’t wait til No Longer You, the danger motif is absolutely everywhere in that one.
"The danger is RIGHT THERE" *points to a wall*
24:22 Funfact, Athena and Poseidon hate each other VERY MUCH, so we can assume that she knew this would happen the moment Odysseus choose to keep the cyclops alive. I firmly believe that the reason why we heard the piano in that part is like an ''I told you so'' coming from Athena herself.
"Those two people should be thrown into the ocean"
Mort's stare is killing me
He got what he wanted!
hahahahaha
@@officialmortiusI think everyone but those 2 that opened the bag got thrown into the ocean
@@calebcraven7409good old perimedes and elpenor!
@@calebcraven7409 well, come on now, dude. He died, and nobody noticed!
10:40 - One of the other reasons Poseidon referes to them as a pack of wolves is because Odysseus' maternal grandfather was the notorious thief, Autolycus, whose name directly translates to "the wolf himself." Telemachus is also referred to as a "little wolf" later on in Epic due to his descent.
Autolycus himself inherited his thieving abilities from his own father, Hermes, who successfully stole from his older brother Apollo *very* shortly after being born on Olympus. So you can see where Odysseus gets some of his cunning!
Something I've seen some other commenters pointing out: the Greek word "apologia" means an answer, explanation, or defense, not an "apology" as we think of it in English. Of course, I also don't know how much classical Greek Jay has studied, so I'm not sure what his intentions were with this line!
As a little fun fact, Odysseus's paternal great grandfather was a son of Aeolus!
@@calebmcmorris5956 I don't think Poseidon has a great-grandfather? Because the farthest the pantheon goes back is Gaia and Uranus, unless you're counting Chaos as a god?
@@calebmcmorris5956 Um what? That's not correct. Poseidon's grandfather was Ouranus, who had no father. So Poseidon doesn't have a great grandfather, nor would it have been a son of Aelous. Not to mention there would be no difference in paternal and maternal grandparents for Poseidon. His parents were Kronos and Rhea. Who were brother and sister. He only has one set of grandparents, Ouranus and Gaia, and no great grandparents. Aeolus came after the Primordials. Aeolus was Lord of the winds originally and wasn't considered a god until later. And even then, he's a minor god. Nothing as ancient as Primordials, which Poseidon's grandfather was a Primordial. There were actually three figures called Aelous in Ancient Greece. One of was a son of Poseidon, perhaps you're confusing him and got the story mixed up.
@@rachelong3755 They've gotta be confusing things. First there's no difference between paternal and maternal with Poseidon's lineage as his parents were brother and sister so his paternal grandparents are the exact same as his maternal grandparents. Ouranus and Gaia. Who had no parents, so paternal or maternal, Poseidon has no great grandparents. There was an Aoelus who was a son of Poseidon.
A bit of a fun fact about "I've been so gracious" is that it's not just referencing the way Odysseus and his crew have had calm seas on their journey to Troy and back. Mythologically, Ithaca was a port town, prosperous from maritime trading. Poseidon has not just been graceful to Odysseus's crew, he has been graceful to all of Ithaca for generations on end. This is perhaps a reason why he's so annoyed by the actions of the crew.
That is a fantastic detail
Athena and Poseidon had a sort of god game where they competed to get cities under their grace as patron deities and then flaunted them at each other.
Ithaca as a port city should have been Poseidon's, but Odysseus chose Athena instead.
Also, Odysseus for some reason didn't do any sacrifice to Poseidon when he diparted or returned to Ithaca, he didn't do it until nearly the end of the story.
No wonder Poseidon had a bone to pick with him
@@Axindoor Yeah, I'm surprised Poseidon was even gracious. Maybe because unlike Athens, Odysseus didn't necessarily make Athena the patron God? Like Odysseus was friendly with her but I don't think the entire city was. It was kind of a personal thing between Odysseus and Athena
Another thing is that, Poseidon was the one who gave Odysseus the idea for the Trojan Horse. And Odysseus took credit for it.@@CFEntertains
Windrunner 🫡
My dad has a theory that Eurylochus was actually the one who opened the bag, and that was what he wanted to tell Odysseus at the start of Puppeteer
OMG
This happens in some versions the Odyssey. Without spoiling too much for Casper (And those who haven't read the origin material), Eurylochus is responsible of MANY *DUMB-A* actions that result in the punishment and death of the crew members.
I believe Jorge will include some of said actions in future sagas!
(Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker 😅)
😮 OMG!!!
@@greycat_2280 Sounds fluent to me bro
That's EXACTLY what I suspected as well, or at the very least he actively avoided helping with the bag's protection, or further incited the divide between Crew and Captain
Wet Hades was such a good villain I’m so glad we got to watch this together ❤
man
Wet Hades is CRAZY. Can't wait till he hear from Sky Hades, Trader Hades, War Hades, Pretty Hades, Wise Hades, Married Hades, and the others.
@@Shaphi95By the others you mean Crafty Hades, Hunter Hades, Artistic Hades, Alcoholic Hades and Mother-in-law-of-Hades Hades?
Wet Hades is a sassy son of cronos
There’s lustful Hades, family Hades, Flower Hades, Messenger Hades, etc
6:11 The "Nooo" being synced up with the song's "No" is so pleasing to my ears.
I know I was waiting for the CF "Nooo!!" Saga to return!
One thing I caught from the begining of the song was the background vocals saying "Poseidon" they say it seven times. Likely for the seven seas that he rules over.
THAT IS SOOOO COOL
Oh! I never caught that detail!!!
Also, just thought about it. But maybe the reason Odysseus says it an eighth time is for the "Sea of Monsters" that they are sailing though.
It’s also the danger motif :)
I do think Poseidon was always going to kill them all at that point, the apology was just to make Odysseus admit he did something wrong. That's why the reply isn't to do with arrogance, it's telling him he's naive because he thinks he can talk Poseidon out of his rage. That's my interpretation tho.
Exactly
I mean, Odysseus also never says the words "sorry" or "I apologize". He only gives justifications. So he in fact did not apologize
@Shaphi95 it would not have mattered if he apologized or not. Posidon only said that to prove a point. He would not show mercy no matter what Odysseus said.
@@melissaf5331 we have no reason to believe Poseidon is not a God of his word. He has already been lenient with Odysseus so far, and he keeps throwing that leniency back into his face
I kinda see it as both. Yeah, There's no way Poseidon wouldn't kill him afterwards, but he's ALSO telling him that if he WERE serious about maybe sparring him, he wouldn't after him not even apologising and trying to weasel his way out of the situation
The apology isnt wrong because he isnt apologizing, but instead the problem is that he is actually refuting the song.
He is saying "sorry, we shouldve been nice", in a song where poseidon constantly says "you are in this mess because you were too nice".
In his apology, where he clings to open arms, odysseus spits in the face of the lesson poseidon is trying to teach him.
In fact the "close your heart" is directly repeating Athena's "you should kill the cyclops" stance.
Afterall, he couldve avoided all this, had he just killed his son.
But noooooo.
All the gods repeat the don't show mercy them.
Kill the cyclops
The ends justify the means
Ruthlessness is mercy
@@Razdasoldier "You can be hurt or you can beat her."
Also even if he had apologized Poseidon wasn't going to spare him. He just sang a whole song about it. "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible". Odysseus is being naive to hope he'd be spared.
Now maybe he would have just killed Odysseus if he had properly apologized. Who knows. But he definitely wasn't going to spare him.
"Sorry, Poseidon, we really should've killed your son. Our bad."
Lmao true 😂@@feistsorcerer2251
In Greek mythology, Poseidon was one of the meaner gods. Unpredictable, like the Ocean. Hades is probably the least likely to mess with Odysseus. He was definitely one of the more reasonable gods. Unfortunately, Disney and other media has done Hades dirty.
#justiceforhades
Yeah, you gotta go out of your way to piss off Hades. I can only think of three people who managed to do it. One started raising the dead (Hades was fine with him healing the dying but drew the line at stealing souls from the Underworld). Another captured the god of death and created a world where no one died (in the process going back on his deal with Persephone to ressurect him for a day to say goodbye to his loved ones). The third wanted to kidnap Persephone (after helping his friend kidnap the then 12-year-old Helen of Troy). Not the kind of things the average Greek would get into.
Most of the other gods are easy to upset by accident or liable to involve you in some scheme against your will.
@@BrandonVout Hades was very unfair to the son of Apollo, I mean yes, it is wrong for him to revive the dead. But THEN WHY DO YOU ALLOW FUCKING HERCULES TO TAKE YOUR SOULS WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES?!?
@anniefemmas5097 because he asked nicely. To be fair, he didn't do anything to Asclepius. He just talked to Zeus about it and Zeus decided it was smiting time.
It's because of Christianity's influence, any underworld god gets typecast as a sort of devil figure, whether or not that was their original role. Hades was feared, sure, death is feared, but was generally a passive god primarily concerned with maintaining balance. But to the ancient Greeks, a seafaring culture who regularly lost ships to storms, the ocean was scarier and more unpredictable than modern audiences see it as. Plus, if you die at sea, you don't get the rites to send you to the afterlife properly, and to the ancient Greeks that was a big deal.
CF, the Hades bit will haunt you until the end of time. Every comment section, every premiere, you will see his name. Yes, it will boost engagement. The algorithm will feast upon it in a gluttonous frenzy. But at what cost?
when does a man become wet hades
@@CFEntertains "I am your darkest moment, the monster that always draws near." Poseidon was just speaking to you too it seems. Man, that's unfortunate. Looks like you and the viewers will have to go on an Epic journey together to find peace from Poseidon's looming shadow. It might take 8 to 10 more years depending on who you ask.
Good luck and Full Speed Ahead! Surely the next 2 sagas will be a nice and relaxing time to plan on how to face Poseidon.....right?
@@newdaydiscoveries1828 who is this “Poseidon” you speak of? I only know wet Hades.
@@CFEntertainsSTOPP PLS I'M WHEEZINGGG AHHH
so basically this is algorithm hades?
Ah yes. Hades, our beloved ocean god 😂😂
The funny thing is, Hades didn't use to exist, and in his place as the God of the sea and the underworld WAS Poseidon, he was married to an old version of persefone too (yep, persefone is older than hades)
Ah yes wet death daddy now going to act 2 with air lol😅
@giuliagabriela9729 and he was the ruling God not zeus
@@giuliagabriela9729are you an overly sarcastic production fan?
@@hanaomer4419 guilty 😅
The "When does a man become a monster?" is Poseidon using the nondiegetic voices in a really fucked up way. Those are the voices of Odysseus's dead crew, but not coming from their souls. He's fucking with Odysseus.
According to Jorge, Poseidon's instrument is trumpet, hence why the storm has the trumpet. But you are right, there are many instruments in this song.
Ooh! And when Poseidon says 'had you just killed my son' there is the storm trumpet, telling you it was him who sent it.
Poseidon's instrument(s) is the brass, specifically the trumpets. They appear a lot in Ruthlessness, but they also appear in Storm (so just a little hint of who actually sent that storm). Also love you joining the EPIC fam ❤
Being in the premiere and seeing everyone spam 'Wet Hades' was the BIGGEST laugh i've had in a while. Love the vid!
I've haven't laughed so much in so long lol. The epic Fandom is so funny. We had monster rawr rawr now wet hades.
Poseidon is the most protective of his children and in Greek it’s worse to blind someone then kill them
And the gods and goddesses are use to their monstrous children being killed but Odysseus not killing Polyphemus was basically saying you are not even worth killing
After listening to this song 50 times I realized something. Right before destroying thr ships, Poseidon begins saying "And ruthlessness is..." but cuts himself off, the last word, "Mercy", only being said by the crew. They aren't finishing the lyric. They're begging for mercy.
Poseidon’s backing vocals are the Laestrygonians, actually-that is, the giants (whose land they were blown to by the storm). That’s why they’re deeper, kind of like the Cyclopes, which was Jorge put through a filter.
Wet Hades train! Get on the Wet Hades train!
Wake up babes, new meme just dropped.
Wet hades! Wet hades! Wet hades!
7:23
Excited for Puppeteer
Wet hades! Wet hades!
Wet hades and his water fork!!!
Now to act 2! 😂
Act 2 the Circle saga!
Fun (or not so fun depending on interpretation) fact
The background vocals are actually diagetic, even though posiedon is a god,
They are the aforementioned giants
They are canibal giants knows as the Laestrygonians
They are posiedon's grandchildren, Nephews to the cyclopes
Also after "i mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son." You can hear on a soft guitar the storm motif
This means Poseidon sent the stom, answering Odysseus' question in "storm"
6:09 I love how Casper’s “NO” was in perfect sync with Odysseus's 😂
Poseidon’s instrument is the trumpets!! Athena’s the piano and yesss I believe she is still looking after Odysseus kinda like a “I told u so” during the song when she told him to kill the cyclops!
Something I LOVE about gigi's style is their use of shapes to convey emotion. In art, the shape of a character is as important as color pallettes and details. Notice how they draw Aoelus. The design is very round, circular, without many sharp edges - the pants, the face and nose, even their eyes. Everything's smooth, because circles often makes a character look more friendly and approachable (think Steven Universe.) Then, look at how they draw Poseidon. He is full of triangular shapes and spiky bits, his face is angular and sharp, his eyes are narrow and smaller, hell, even his teeth are sharper. These sharper lines portray a character as harsher, colder, more stern, especially paired with the high-cheekbones and older look. It gives the sense of maturity, strictness, and can cause a viewer to take more caution when watching the character, and even give them a predatory and ominous air. Not to mention the color schemes - yes, they are both blue, but Aoelus is a lighter, more playful blue in their animatic than Poseidon's navys and blacks. URGHH I LOVE ART AND GIGI IS A GENUIS
TL;DR: gigi knows how to work with shapes and it makes my artist brain tingle.
Wow i really like to yap about art huh
21:43 funny enough, she did. While being the goddess of Wisdom, Athena's pride is second only to her father, Zeus. She has a massive ego and has several stories about her pride causing her to make hasty decisions.
As someone who binges OverlySarcastic Productions, I remember that Hades didn't exist in mycenaean Greece, and Poseidon filled some form of Underworld god role in that pantheon. Wet Hades is more accurate than you know!
Casper: this is the best animation I’ve seen by far!
Me: Oh! Just wait till you get to Gigi’s version of Monster.
CF, I think you may be too harsh on Odysseus. As someone who has read the Odyssey, the other ships who get sunk did nothing wrong, but the crew Ody gets left with doesn’t get a lot of sympathy from me. He had brought them in sight of Ithaca, and they had to go and screw everything up because they didn’t trust him when he told them about the contents of the bag. Eurylochus might be to blame here in part for this, because challenging his King in front of his subjects in a difficult moment like he did in Luck Runs Out is a big faux-pas, especially in the context they in are at the moment and without offering an alternative. By doing this, he bolstered the crew’s distrust of Odysseus, and they didn’t listen when they should have done so because he was getting the job done and hid nothing from them. The end of act 1 happens because him trying to be somewhat kinder to the world brought him nothing but misery, so he throws away all the guilt he felt for Polites and the infant.
With this I’m not saying he is perfect (what Greek hero isn’t - at the very least- extremely cocky and arrogant), he has made and will make huge mistakes, but this animosity seems a bit too much.
And I’m not saying your feelings about this story aren’t valid, I just can’t fully see where they are coming from.
I still love your musical analysis skill, btw. You clearly know what you’re talking about.
Rewriting this because apparently I spoiled something.
Thank you so much for your comment! I missed your first one, but that's prob good if there were spoilers.
It's mostly because he could've just killed the Cyclops when he had the chance - Dead Cyclops = Polites lives
@@CFEntertains And the main reason he didn’t was from the trauma of killing the infant. Personally I felt like Odysseus showing mercy to the cyclops was him trying to atone
@@CFEntertains I mean, Ody's chance to kill the Cyclops didn't come until after Polites's death, so killing Polyphemus wouldn't have brought him back unfortunately
@@EVH596 Great point
That’s what I tried to say in my comment on the luck runs out reaction video!! 😮😮 I feel like out of everything that Odysseus has done, a majority has aided them or was in their best interest. It made me feel sad to see everyone seemed to dislike/distrust him.🥲
Although this video’s reaction and CF’s comment made me more aware of how heavy it was to lose Polites. I knew things changed but I did not realise it was to this degree. Grief is a strong emotion and i do understand better why they feel this way.🤔😶
Watching people’s reaction always gives me new insight which is why I love these so much. 🙂🙃
Just something funny for Mortius and Casper. After this song came out, a bunch of people were thirsting over the voice of Poseidon and saying, "I understand Sally Jackson now" 🤣
Compared to most of Greek mythology, Poseidon isn't often called out to settle grudges. While a lot of mythology surrounding him may seem that way, he's often just associated with the term laid back and will only do things to tell people, "Hey, you disrespected me! Don't do it again!" I think this is part of the reason that Rick Riordan portrayed the god as being the better father figure compared to his brothers when it comes to his kids.
Also, Poseidon wouldn't have gotten involved unless Odysseus didn't mention his name. Once Odysseus had said that, Polyphemus prayed for Poseidon to delay Odysseus's return for as long as he could as punishment. It was Odysseus's own pride that brought about his ultimate downfall and his greatest enemy. Aelous even comments on this, because Odysseus did stop by his palace one more time to explain the bag situation, only for the god of winds to say, "You have been granted bad luck at sea because you angered Poseidon. Leave my palace at once!" So, really, Odysseus needs to put a rein on his impulses.
Nah, anyone who thinks Odysseus saying sorry would have spared a thing hasnt been paying attention to the ENTIRE REST OF THE SONG. Yeah the guy saying ruthlessness is mercy would have spared people thanks to a sorry.
The part where posidon gives odysseus a chance to apologize is to show that it doesn't matter what Odysseus says, he could have apologized with his whole heart, he could have told posidon to stick it where the sun don't shine, it wouldn't have made a difference, the outcome was going to be the same. And odysseus was being naive to think him apologizing, half-assed or not, would do anything to change what would happen. Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves. Posidon would not have spared odysseus or his men.
As others have mentioned, I don't think Odysseus not actually saying sorry mattered to Poseidon, because the whole point of the song was 'ruthlessness' - Poseidon was never going to let this go, and when Odysseus is speaking it's as a King: justifying his actions is tantamount to an apology. HOWEVER, I will add that (personally) I never thought to scrutinize that action until other people raised it because to me giving an actual apology in that situation is a terrible idea.
I was coming at it from an angle of speaking with gods means that fae rules apply. Do NOT apologize.
"Ah, yes, higher being, I am sorry, this situation is my fault and I am in the wrong."
'Ah, so you accept responsibility and thus agree you should be PUNISHED for your actions then? Good.'
Like, nah, do not give them an opening to exact greater retribution. Deflect, talk around it, grovel, flatter, beg, acknowledge injury and justify why it happened but do not under any circumstances expose your own throat. (I also don't think Odysseus is at fault for Polyphemes, but that's besides the point.) Especially since he's had Athena as his patron since childhood, someone who puts a lot of value in cleverness (see: getting her to reveal herself in Warrior of the Mind), and is the great grandson of Hermes, god of (amongst many, arguably too many, other things) tricksters and liars; of course his reaction to a god is to explain himself and justify what happened.
Reading/seeing others reactions, I get where they're coming from - definitely - because in real life, own up to your actions, give proper apologize. But, my first reaction was thinking Odysseus handled not apologizing very tactfully, and the idea of giving an apology to a god (especially one as eager to dole out punishment as Poseidon is in Ruthlessness) is making my fight-or-flight reflex vibrate XD
When it comes to a god who's determined to kill you I honestly don't think any response would matter lol
Odysseus apologizes: Oh so you admit you're in the wrong? DIE
Odysseus doesn't apologize, stands by his choice: Oh so you think you, a mere mortal, know better than the gods? DIE
Realistically his only "choice" would have been not to offend the gods in the first place imo
Considering Odysseus’ issues are often a result of hubris, calling him an idiot is fair though the apology thing I feel like Poseidon would’ve liked it more if he went “Fuck you Poseidon I should’ve been ruthless and severed your son’s neck!!!” He would’ve liked that he was at least listening
“Hold me back Moritus, hold me back”😂😂😂
The thing about the gigi vs AnniFlamma animatic debate really, to me, doesn't boil down to who designed Wet Hades better, but more so of how they incorporated the backup vocals as tangible characters, imo. I don't think any animator has (yet) animated any Laestrygonians (the Giants mentioned from the last song.) closest we get is here in Gigi's animatic where they create Nagakaboros type tentacles whenever the Laestrygonians sing.
Edit: okay, Imma just say in case anyone hasn't noticed, Jay already posted this on Tiktok-The Storm Motif comes right after “Totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son, but nOOoOoo~”
Casper - "Athena, where you at?"
Watching and 100% co-signing this very hard lesson her menteee is about to learn.
That's pretty ruthless (pun intended). So I guess every time piano plays Athena is watching Odysseus, that's a lot of time if listen carefully
@@alexeysimushov4971 yep.
Wisdom can be extremely ruthless.
I feel like you guys (and a lot of other people tbh) are being too harsh on Odysseus. I don’t mean to fight or disregard your emotions, I really like to discuss about this musical, so I’m sorry if it comes off as rude, that’s not my intention.
In my opinion, the things that happen to Odysseus are bad, but the things Odysseus have done aren’t actually that bad. He leaves Troy after 10 years of war and tries to go home with his men, but they run out of food and they may starve if they don’t do something to fix it. He makes a reasonable “plan”, following the birds, because they would know where to get food. They then come to the Island of Lotus Eaters, and he is presented with two options: Raid the island or try to negotiate for food. He chooses to side with Polites and have a “friendly” approach, because he is still haunted by what had happened in war, and also because he had to kill a baby. Polites tries to make him more relaxed and positive, but you can see Odysseus struggles even when Polites is there to help him. The way he was raised and what Polites is trying to teach him are completely different. In the end, Polites kind of “proves” that things aren’t so bad if you just stay positive and believe that there’s kindness in other people (or creatures), so Odysseus accepts embracing Polites’s philosophy and see if it works out for him.
Now, I think the reason why Odysseus accepts Polites’s ideas that easily is because being merciless didn’t work out at all for him. He doesn’t like hurting people, he doesn’t like being cruel, and he doesn’t know how to be better and get rid off his guilt. The other people around him (Athena and Eurylochus) can’t really help, since what they want from him was what made him feel terrible in the first place. Penelope and Telemachus aren’t with him, and he also wants to be good for them. He wants to be husband and a father that they deserve.
He is still unsure about the open arms theory since it’s very strange to him, but he tries with going into the cave that the Lotus Eaters had talked about. He does feel suspicious, but he wants to believe in Polites. Also, even Eurylochus isn’t skeptical about the cave. So it makes sense that Odysseus was able to believe that there happened to be a cave that happened to be filled with sheep. It’s not very smart, but considering his emotional situation (also he’s at the beginning of his character arc) it makes sense.
Not killing Polyphemus was also because of Polites. He wanted to continue the idea that his friend had planted in him. His fight with Athena and him lashing out to Polyphemus is all mostly because of grief. He also just barely saved his life and had to fight a giant monster to do that, the adrenaline rush is something to be considered.
Till this point, Odysseus makes mistakes, but they aren’t because he is dumb or because he made terrible choices. He’s overwhelmed and trying to figure out so many things at the same time. He actually mostly makes good decisions, he does find them food and he does manage to escape from the cyclops with only a few of his men dying. Everyone is depending on him for everything and no-one is offering him better alternative solutions. It’s easy to judge characters when we are watching the story, but making those big decisions and actually mostly succeeding is very hard. Especially if you’re in Ancient Greece in a world where the myths are real.
With Aeolus, he’s still the only one who has a plan to get pass the giant storm. Eurylochus brings up good points, but he never actually helps. He criticizes Odysseus in front of his whole crew, and basically tells everyone that, as the second in command, he doesn’t trust the captain to make decisions.
Which is a pretty big thing, considering their doubt made them open the bag. He shuts down Eurylochus because he was being disrespectful, making the others doubt him, and wasn’t offering anything that is useful.
On top of all these, Odysseus was actually correct about Aeuolus. He didn’t believe it would all be fun and easy anyway, the first thing he says when Aeolus mentions a game is “What's the catch?”. But overall, Aeolus was actually going to help him, if he only did this one small thing. Which would probably be possible had Eurylochus didn’t argue with him in front of everyone. They wouldn’t even confront Poseidon had everyone listened to Odysseus.
Which is, well, fair to not trust someone blindly, but other than that one instance with the cyclops, Odysseus was a great leader. Even with Polyphemus, he was quick to fix it as best as he can.
Poseidon being Polyphemus’s father is very unfortunate, but it’s more of a tragedy than Odysseus’s fault. Odysseus was in the wrong with telling his name, it was pretty unwise, but the consequences being this big wasn’t exactly in his control. It’s a situation where the worst possible thing that can happen, had happened, and it’s all because of that one vulnerable moment. Athena deciding to argue with him at that moment and her not understanding human emotions, Odysseus being emotionally unavaliable and needing time to cool off, Polites being the one who died instead of some other men, Poseidon being Polyphemus’s father… It’s all one big tragedy that couldn’t really have been prevented without everyone acting different than how they did before.
Also a note, I think in Ancient Greece, apologizing generally means justifying what you did or making a sacrifice. Odysseus did apologize from Polyphemus and from Poseidon, but Poseidon wasn’t going to change his mind no matter what, since he has his own reasons for deciding to kill them.
Oh dear, sorry for this being so long! Just wanted to talk about this musical I guess
No need to be sorry, I agree completely and have written a similar (albeit shorter) comment. And Eury has a name I never quite manage to spell right 🤣
I completely agree!
In the end, everything is Polites' fault. Had he not told Odysseus to 'Open his Heart' then Odysseus never would have even considered mercy. Why would you listen to Polites and ignore Divine Sugar Momma???
Definitely agree, to be fair it is much easier to hold perspectives like this when you know the entire story front to back and have listened to this dozens of times. I think it is also difficult for people to see becoming more ruthless as a good quality in a modern world where most stories focus on the value of mercy and compassion and forgiveness against all evils, but the fact is this is a man at war. And as we have seen and will see later, this is necessary.
I will just say that technically odysseus isnt dumb hes prideful also being real he also probably knew that poseidon wouldnt have let them go even if he did apologize
I like how ruthlessness is just Poseidon's remember them.
6:05 I love how his “ohhhh nooooo” is on beat like it is odysseus’ thoughts
Poseidon is voiced by Steven Rodriguez, a very talented singer who I definitely recommend checking out at some point.
People are saying that Poseidon gets brass instruments as his signature, but my understanding is that his main motif isn't actually an instrument - it's triplets. When Odysseus refuses to kill the cyclops in Remember Them, Athena's piano immediately switches into rapid triplets because she knows what the consequences are. I believe they're are also present in Storm to signify Poseidon's influence along with the trumpets, and they do feature heavily in Ruthlessness.
So poseidons l instrument is brass but just wanna say that in a recent video Jorge actually mentioned that triplets are connected to the concept of ‘ruthlessness’ in Epic so they are both present here as well as the part of remember them that you’re talking about so you are correct!
Another wolfy thing is that Odysseus' grandfather Autolycus' name means "the wolf itself" He's the same grandfather that actually named Odysseus after the wrath he himself feels. So because Odysseus is an extension of a wolf's wrath and his very own wrath wronged Poseidon's family. I always thought it might be a fun way of addressing the family of wolves and threatening the people Odysseus has at home too.
I see Odysseus' 'apology' as not understanding Poseidon at all. He talks about how they tried to do minimun damage, when Poseidon is saying he didn't do enough. It's definately an excuse, yes, but I think it also stems from trying to cling to open arms and 'we should try to find a way no one ends up dead' mindset. He isn't ready to be a monster at this point.
While I doubt Poseidon would've accepted any apology, he might maybe have given him a chance if he'd instead said "I'll go back and kill Polyphemus right now if you demand it. Or any other monsters. Give me twelve labours!"
As he is king, what Odysseus said to poseidon, to him, was an apology. He talks to other kings, and (presumably, I haven't read the Odyssey) his father was also king. In meetings like this, giving an explanation would be considered an apology
Only thing is, one's a guy and one's a god. I guess Ody forgot about that little detail
Wet ha des wet ha des wet ha des
If you listen closly during Oddyseus "Apology" you can hear a dark choir like a bass choir or a tenor choir, what if that is poseidon's instrument, the sea is the choir always by Poseidon's side
The lyric "you are the worst kind of good, cause you're not even great" reminds me of a line from a story i heard years ago:
"You are a walking second place medal."
Both sentences mean essentially the same thing:
You're decent at what you do, but you're not the best. You slip up and stumble just before hitting perfection. The embodiment of "not quite enough".
I've always thought that the "but no" was slightly annoyed. Like Poseidon is the father of all cyclopes, horses, Pegasus's, etc. on top of being the god of the seas. It felt like he wouldn't have cared as long as Odysseus gave him enough to ignore it. But Odysseus didn't, and now he's inconvenienced Poseidon into making a show of force.
Just want to say- cause it kills me- right before Ruthlessness- Odysseus had been awake for NINE DAYS and had only slept a little during the end of the last song- just- this poor man
When “those two people” are among the only like, 50ish, who DIDNT get thrown into the ocean
The amount of times he hears the motif and dances around it my poor guy is going to feel so upset like “I SAID THAT I FREAKING SAID THAT!”
Admittedly, at one point Poseidon was not only a Chthonic God but *_THE_* Chthonic God, ruling The Underworld. He was given the domain of the oceans in this context because it was believed that he was moving the very earth to create waves, so in a way Wat Hades isn't an *ENTIRELY* inaccurate way to describe Poseidon...
I like the “it very often I that I get pissed off” because that implies that usually what is does isn’t anger but just boredom or being petty, but this, this is anger
wet hades
www.patreon.com/CFReacts
Wet hades! And his water fork!
I can't find the alternate reaction at all.
@@basiclyanything109 it’s there, check under the “alt animatic” tag
I'm not sure why you are so set on Hades being a bad guy. In greek mitologii he is one of if not the most responsible god, he only ever screwed over fiew people most of whom really deserved it. This is in no way related to musical, I'm just mad at people thinking Hades = devil
@@CFEntertains okay I'll check again.
1-Posiedon's instrument is the trumpet
2-20:00 THE STORM MOFIT! (If I'm correct) Storm started with the trumpets and heavy brass and now here we hear trumpets for Poseidon. When Poseidon was saying 'I mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son" there's a 'BA BA BA BA BA' with the trumpet in the background of that which basically confirms that Poseidon DID in fact send that storm (idk when the fuck Polyphemus told him but oh well💀) because I think we were meant to believe it was sent by Aeolus? not sure.
3-Posiedon is such a petty little bitch. 23:52 Here I'm pretty sure these aren't Odysseus's soldiers, pretty sure that was brought up by Poseidon JUST to taunt Odysseus.
4-Love the reactions💙💙
Alright so he said 43 left under his command 557 men died under his command but for some little lore tidbits 7 died in "survive" each ship has 50 people and its a fleet of 12 and all the people who went into polyphemus cave were from odysseus flagship so 550 men were killed by poseidon the 7 others being the only who had died up till that point
Damn. Wet hades got hands.
And he's really good at using that water fork!
I have seen other comments explaining this in depth so I’ll be brief: Odysseus needs more credit for trying to be a good person. He’s literally just trying to not murder people anymore. He’s trying to go home, leave the war behind him, get back to wifey. But EVERYONE except Polites (who died) has been trying to get Ody to become the monster. He’s just trying to be a good person but now literally everyone is telling him to stop. Whether they’re right or he’s right on how to save lives is another matter.
I think that it didnt matter the words he used on the apologice because the core idea of the song is Ruthlessness is mercy, this is not a lesson of forgiveness is a lesson of reality, and asking for mercy to posidon is not a great idea because ruthlessness IS mercy.
Okay so I'm very glad I got to be there to watch it happen, but also, the fact that you went back and pulled KARMA to replace it with Wet Hades in the video title after the fact, just to commemorate the premier chat roasting you AND YOU MAKING FUN OF YOURSELF along with everyone is truly incredible. You are a delightful human being.
THE MOMENT WE'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR! THE MAN,THE MYTH,THE LEGEND POSIEDON!
YAYY WET HADES!
@@risha-mehanse4082 I mean they're related so close enough😂
@@F_doesnotwanttobehere7 🤣😭 yes I can't wait for casper to mean her... uhm let's just say someone that will be helping Odysseus. Herm- is my favorite character along with polites
@@risha-mehanse4082 we love dealing flowers with our great grand...
@@risha-mehanse4082 We love dealing flowers with our great grand...
I’m so excited, Ruthlessness is such a good song, each time I hear it I find myself thinking of a new perspective… (lyrically) and animatically* How people drew Poseidon is both amazing and terrifying!
0:35 Actually not the act 1 finale, “Monster” in the underworld saga is. Ruthlessness was just the finale of the Ocean saga.
Also- 11:20 pack of wolves are a threat to sheep, like- Polyphemus’ sheep?
"I cannot fathom." Ocean puns.
First off I love your analysises, you have so much musical insight! But I feel like you (and many other people I've seen) are quite unfairly harsh on Odysseus. I don't mean to be malicious- of course your interpretation is completely valid and Odysseus is no saint, but; (if you'll bare with me)
Odysseus really hasn't made that many bad decisions, not nearly as many as most blame him for. First of all he came from a 10 year war, then was forced to kill an infant (I know he "had a choice" but in Greek Mythology when it's the Will Of The Gods it's never actually a choice) so obviously he's already shaken.
Then, despite all this and his upbringing where he was literally raised to be a heartless merciless "general" by a god who can't comprehend human emotions, he tries to adopt Polites' ideals of mercy. And whilst it may have been slightly stupid to accept that this cave of sheep just existed, 1) there was NO sign of it being otherwise occupied, and 2) he was in charge of 600 starving men. If you see food when you're starving, you take it. And then even after trying to negotiate with the Cyclops he ends up losing his best friend- only for Athena to instantly berate him for not killing the Cyclops, the only thing he could do at that moment to honour Polites' memory. Yes, doxxing himself was stupid, but it was a blind act of grief and wanting to feel in control. And then he lost his mentor- and NOT for saying his name, no, for the simple reason of not killing Polyphemus. At this point of course it seems to him like the universe is punishing him for even trying to be merciful.
And then with the storm and Eurylochus- I agree that he should have addressed Eurylochus' concerns, but they were still in the middle of a raging storm that had to be immediately dealt with, and also Eurylochus really should NOT have been blatantly calling the leaders decisions stupid, not to mention whilst not even providing any alternate solution; he wasn't providing a plan, he was just against Odysseus'. And as annoying as it is, Odysseus was completely correct- the moment an army starts doubting the leader they WILL die. And we literally see this come true in the very next song, the army started doubting him, leading to them literally forcing him to go nine days without sleep, then sneaking up on him once he's passed out from exhaustion anyway, and completely derailing their progress when they were within sight of their home.
(Also, in Ancient Greece an "apology" means providing an explanation; Odysseus DID apologise, Poseidon just doesn't care.)
Sorry, this ended up being really long haha! Again, I really hope I didn't come across as confrontational! I really do enjoy discussing different viewpoints :]
that and in the odyssey, while gigi depicts two random crew members as the openers of the bag eurylochus was the one in the og story. which just shows even more how much he was undermining and pushing the limits with odysseus during this part.
@@ShadowFox1412 Eurylochus in myth is portrayed as both craven and cowardly - He undermines oddyseus, he refuses to rescue men from circe because he's afraid of her, and final of all he disobeys the orders and advice of the LITERAL UNDEAD PROPHET THEY VISIT.
But that's because Eurylochus isn't meant to be a character. He's meant to represent the crew. The tired crew. The hungry crew. The crew that's losing faith in their leader because while he led them through the war, at this point they're the only crew that hasn't made it home yet. The crew that's homesick and done with the war. The crew that's scared for their lives and really don't care. The crew that thinks oddyseus is keeping secret treasure from a god-king of the winds. That's who Eurylochus represents in the oddysey. The men.
I’ve been binging your reactions since I stumbled across you a couple days ago, and you guys are awesome together. You have such a wonderful dynamic, and despite wanting to jump in when you get excited, you’re both so respectful of each other, and so playful together. I would love to see more of you guys together.
Do I have good news for you - We started a duo channel together! :D
Starting the petition for a VoicePlay short with Eli as Wet Hades
Part of the reasons that Anniflamas is so popular, besides being amazing, is that it came out a lot sooner then the other really good one. It preceded Gigis by about a month.
On the note of Odysseus being responsible for not killing the cyclops, hence leading to Polites' death (which seems to be Casper's main hang up with Odysseus), Odysseus WAS trying to kill the cyclops at the moment Polites was killed. All throughout Survive he is talking about how "it's just one life to take" showing how he is totally prepared to kill the cyclops. Polyphemus just proves to be too much for a small scouting crew to handle, despite their best efforts and all Odysseus' strategies (exhaust him, stay out of reach, attack from behind). Once Polyphemus brings out the club, it's game over. If it hadn't been for Odysseus drugging him with the lotus wine, they would have all died. It's not his fault the wine took a certain amount of time to kick in. What could he have possibly done to save Polites? Literally the only way is to not have gone into the cave in the first place (a cave they only went to bc of Polites' trust of the lotus eaters) and all of the 600 men would have starved. They NEEDED those sheep. Their food rations were completely gone and they still had a far way to sail. In the end its just a tragedy of circumstances and no one hates Odysseus for Polites' death more than Odysseus himself. He only chooses to spare the cyclops after Polites' death to keep his ideals alive. Also that was after they had just realized there were tons more cyclops in the cave. If they stayed longer to kill Polyphemus they were risking them coming back and everyone dying for just a shot at revenge.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to see if i could help put some stuff into perspective. Love your videos and your analysis. I don't want this to come off as antagonistic at all. I just wanted to point out that even though the events of Ruthlessness could have been avoided if Ody hadn't doxed himself in his grief (and the crew hadn't opened the bag) tragically nothing could have saved Polites.
OH I AM *H Y P E D.*
15:20 mortius is becoming Hermes
Coming from the wisdom saga now- how right they were in saying athena was always watching..because of the piano
To be fair about "Wet Hades" Poseidon was once an underworld god, that's why he is also the god of earthquakes and the underworld is known for its rivers.
This is very random but I just absolutely love you sharing this with Casper, it almost feels like I’m on FaceTime with yall observing this!
I love how you two intently listen to one another. I’ve tried getting my friends to watch things with me like this but they never truly pay attention, so this is genuinely so relieving! I love showing people things I love hehe
Gigi wrote an animatic for monster too. Something interesting is that Poseidon here has the black “goo” that Odysseus “accepted” when becoming a monster.
This is a nice dynamic with one of you being stunned into stillness and the other bouncing around all giddy
17:18 the danger motif was actually in the very beginning of the song, in the lyrics when the backgroind vocals sings "Poseidon!" Its during the "-sei-don" part of the lyric
Hope this helps!
Edit: Posiedon's instrument is supposed to be a trumpet/brass too i believe
So this may be late but an interesting detail I saw; the call back to Just a Man is missing a line. "When does a ripple become a tidal wave? When does the reason become the blame? When does a man become a monster?" is the full lyric. I had this thought; a ripple became a tidal wave when the reason became the blame. Ody's apology could be interpreted as him blaming Polyphemus for him being blinded.
Calling Poseidon Wet Hades is actually kind of interesting & not totally inaccurate from a historical sense.
Historically, the ancient Greeks we think of were predated by Mycenean Greece. Many of the gods from Mycenea were incorporated into the Greek pantheon we know of with some modifications.
One major change was that, as far as I'm aware, there's no record of Hades in Linear B (the language of Mycenea), although there are records of gods who show up in the Greek pantheon, albeit differently.
Poseidon was actually the god of the dead in Mycenea. It's also why Poseidon is associated with earthquakes. He was seen as a cthonic deity (that is, a deity from under the earth/world). Other Mycenean gods that show up later are Demeter, Persephone, and Zeus (although not as the king of the gods). I don't remember when Hades first showed up or when Poseidon's domain changed. Overly Sarcastic Productions did a really interesting look at that in their Hades & Persephone video (iirc).
So yeah. Calling Poseidon Wet Hades actually has some historical basis. Fun fact!
ANOTHER PREMIERE? WE EATING GOOD TONIGHT BOYS
10:40 maybe also because the experienced sailors are called "sea wolves"
I'm not gonna lie, I am pretty bummed that your initial reaction wasn't for Anni's version but I understand wanting to keep the consistency. Gigi killed it with this version, imo Anni's poseidon was far more intimidating. I guess Ill head to patreon to get that reaction! 😆
Oh and Mortius, your super dramatic silent chanting of "PO-SEI-DON!" had me *dying* 🤣🤣
The gods seem to have a mix of different assigned instruments but i think they have prominent ones. Hermes' is a harp (you hear it in Puppeteer & Wouldn't You Like in the Circe saga, which indicates he's been watching the whole time), while Athena's is a piano. I noticed though that both Poseidon & Zeus seem to share an electric guitar & I think drums? This is either bc they're both brothers/one of the big three, or it attributes to both their elements & temperament (vicious & at most times unforgiving) & electric guitars & drums easily make such aggressive music
I adore the lyrics, especially “ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.”
I’ve used that in my first dnd game im running as a family motto for the bbeg. Something about it feels like such an ancient saying. But I can’t find it anywhere else. The ability of Jay to write such natural lyrics for a rock opera style retelling of one of the most famous stories ever told. It grounds idly in a way that feels like it understands the history and gravitas without making it feel old.
Agreed. I've wound up using it rather frequently as a saying in a D&D context a lot now, usually when a player complains about enemies being too harsh.
To be fair to Odysseus even if he did apologize the god singing about ruthlessness would not let him off at all. 😅
Also love how he throws Odysseus' big line of "remember them" when only 30 of his men die. To when poseidon says it "Remember *Me*" after killing 530 of them
In the Telegony, Odysseus was killed by a stingray/stingray poison spear. So Poseidon got him in the end.
When watching the animatic for "monster", id say gigi's animatic for it would be perfect because of how it connects with "just a man"
Disney Hades: "This is gonna sound real rich coming from me, but uh... I feel like I'm being misrepresented here."
I saw everyone talking about all the different "Hadeses" and had to make this joke.😂
14:09 trumpets. Position instrument is troopers, and if you guys play attention, you can her the melody from.the song storm meaning position was behind it
12:30 Also I do not agree with you two here cuz Posidon would have kill them no matter what. "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" is Posidon ideology. No matter what reply Odyseus would have give him he would have kill everyone. That is also express from the start of the song when he said "I've been so greatest but yet you hurt the son of mine [...] I got to make you bleed I need to see you down [...] you could have avoid it all this if just kill my son". He want to revenge his kid, to teach odyseus about ruthlessness but he would have been fine if his son was killed by them.
Tbh Odysseys has nothing to apologize about he’s being prideful as well remember he is a king and doesn’t want to show his men that he’ll bow down to a god