Messiaen Mode 3- Outside Approach, Structure & Harmony-20th Century Classical to Jazz Fusion!🎸
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- FREE 'Rethinking Jazz Guitar' course: bit.ly/RethinkingJazzGuitar
From Allan Holdsworth and Nelson Veras, to modern monsters like Thomas Griggs and Isaac Negrene, Messiaen's 3rd Mode of Limited transposition has been used to great effect to create outside sounds in contemporary Jazz Fusion guitar.
First outlined in French composer Olivier Messiaen's 'The Technique of My Musical Language', he compiled and codified the modes of limited transposition and pioneered the use of them in his groundbreaking 20th century compositions.
We'll explore the benefits of learning these modes, including the ear training benefits, originality and technical 'shred' advantages. We then discuss the structure, intervals and degrees of the 3rd scale, learning it in three positions on the fretboard- with full TAB and notation. We'll then move on to explore some of the harmony within the 3rd mode, explaining that many standard chords (Major 7, Minor 7, Dominant 7, Minor 7b5 etc.) live within this symmetrical structure. We briefly discuss how this can be applied to the Coltrane Changes, including Giant Steps and Moment's Notice. Finally we cover how to avoid repeating yourself and some creative approaches to avoid sounding too symettrical or same when using this scale, including arpeggios, intervallic approaches, sequencing and slides.
Good luck with it!
Zoom/Skype lessons with me: bit.ly/3hK9FZx
![Gambale and Holdsworth [Featuring Brett Stine]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZeCeHzG9va4/mqdefault.jpg)
My FREE 'Rethinking Jazz Guitar' course: bit.ly/RethinkingJazzGuitar
Not sure why you don’t have more subscribers. This is college class level explanation for free. Thank you !
That's very kind of you to say so, Andres! Do check out my free course if you like, I'll be starting the next one Monday 20th, I hope to see you there. Charles
For clarity it's worth spelling out the modes on each of the three scale degrees as 1 2, b3 3 b5 5#5 b7 7 etc. to get an overview of all the arpeggios and extensions at your disposal.
In tonal terms it's probably the least dissonant when used as a 4th degree 'outside' option in any key (i.e. Lydian). Try harmonizing a C major line with F Messiaen mode 3 chords in a repeating modal vamp. You can try using b7 along with 7 in voicings or other m2nds to keep the true flavour of the mode in your comping.
I'll give that a go, thanks for taking the time to share!
Hey Charles, thank you very much for mentioning, I liked your explanations, congratulations on the channel and for promoting good and intelligent music. 🙏😊
That means a lot, Isaac! I greatly appreciate your hard work and contributions to the craft- your left hand work and melodic creativity has been incredibly inspiring for me as a musician. Cheers 🎸
Amazing teacher!!!! So clear and without leaving thing behind! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
Thank you Nicholas, i'm delighted to hear you enjoyed this one. Cheers!
You have a real gift for explaining things
Thanks for that Devin, and I'm sure you're singing really isn't too bad 😂 cheers
The way i choose to think about it is a Minor 7 chord, with both the major 3rd and 7th and the 4th is sharpened too
Or aelian sharp 4 with both 3rds and 7ths
Both excellent visualisations, thanks for sharing :)
Great video. You have some of the best educational content on YT.
Thanks Neil, you should read some of my other comments 🥲 cheers
With this scale you can draw out sort of an augmented scale with major or minor triads with a semitone m3 semitone repeating pattern. really cool sound
Sounds great! It's an incredibly versatile scale, and contains some really cool chord scale ideas which I'll cover at some point in the future.
Man, messaien mode 3 is so much difficult than I thought, I just had 2 brain seizures trying to wrap my head around it, I mean, the scale is pretty simple, but after you move on from the scale and try to make any type of coherent sound, it just blows my brain
😂😂😂 sorry to hear about the seizures Mr. More! Stick at it and you'll get there in no time, cheers
You say it's a ten-note scale but actually it's a nine-note scale; the chromatic scale has 12 pitch classes, this has three missing... 12-3=9 😅 Also, you refer to the first degree of the scale as the 'root', but that term is used when describing chords. The first degree of a scale is called the tonic 👍🏿
I keep saying lots of silly things Paul! I'll be counting the tonic at the top and bottom, like saying there's 8 notes in a major scale starting and ending on the first degree. Not 8 unique notes but 8 notes when performed in this sequence. You'll be here all day if you start working through all the mistakes on this channel 😂 cheers
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition as someone once told me: “if you ain’t fcking up, you ain’t doing nothin!”
Just discovered your channel. You’re doing great, mistakes included. Keep on keeping on!
@@chrisfazio9934 Thanks Chris, please expect plenty more f-ing and Jeff-ing up on this channel 😅
Thanks for the interesting lesson. I have been working on the Messiaen scales myself recently, having realised that Allan used them. Despite having his book for many years, I’d never given much attention to what he calls the symmetrical scale (the lack of audio/musical examples didn’t help). Any further lessons on how to use this scale “to modulate from one chord to another” would be great. One day I’ll get round to opening the Slominsky book!
Thanks for commenting, Mike!
There is certainly several lifetime's of secrets within this series of notes and, of course, Allan used it as well as one could ever hope.
As I briefly mentioned it would be worth exploring this scale over Giant Steps at a slow tempo. I would recommend you take the time to compose 3 or more different lines, considering some of the 'creative approaches' I proposed as well as thinking of your own solutions, which you feel effectively guide the ear through the key centres of B major, G major and Eb major. I think that therein you will begin to discover what you are looking for from this scale.
I will certainly discuss this scale future in a future upload and share more of my thoughts on it!
Cheers!
really good mate, thanks
You're most welcome, cheers!
amazing viedo man. Thnks a lot it's really interesting
Thanks for saying so, I'm pleased you enjoyed this one! Cheers
First learning the b and g strings is easier then add the e (and rest later) because knowing the G is knowing the B (also it gives extra options for open strings esp on 7string). this scale is wonderfull spend last two weeks playing in it, its like learning a new instrument. Writing in it is great fun! there is also three gypsy minors in it aswell. And its used in the ending of "the underground theme" of Supermario what more to wish for haha
Thank for that insight, Martijn. I can see how approaching it that way would be beneficial. And I had no idea it was used in Mario, I'll check that out! Cheers
Sounds like a track off larks tongues in aspic
I'll have to check that out, thanks for the recommendation!
Nice work Charles!
Thanks for taking the time to say so, cheers!
Beautiful
An absolutely stunning musical device!
Thanks for the secret Giant Steps scale.
You're most welcome 🙏
Late to the party, here. Super thanks for this.
Thank you! Pleased you liked this one 😌
Hi Charles ! Any chance you can make another video about this topic pls? but a abit simpler so it's easy to digest. Thanks in adv.
Absolutely! Could you be clearer about your confusion so I can better explain this one? 🍺
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition How can you play messiaen mode 3 on an axis progression e.g. C-Am-F-G or G-D-Em-C?
Thanks dude! Great explanation!
Cheers Griggsy! You're the boy 💙
Charles Harrison Music Tuition ❤️❤️❤️
Outstanding lesson, mate! Very well documented! Could you do a video of its application in a ii V I, or with other lick ideas? Your lick is sick, but I'm not able to think with that detail when improvising, lol. I think this scale is not widely used, and you can apply it to basically any chord: Cmaj7, C7, Cm7, Cm7b5! You still need to take into account the resolutions, though.
Definitely will get into this in the future. Thanks for your comment! 👍
I'm actually in the process of writing a gothic industrial/witch house track that uses Messiaen Mode 3. (On E).
Very cool, please link me once it's done. Would love to check it out!
If you never heard Fredrik Thordendal, check him out, I think he has been taking the legacy of Holdsworth to a quite new level. Thordendal can show you how much you can brew out of symmetrical scales.
Hey dude, thanks for that. I was a big Meshuggah fan in my teens but I haven't revisited the genre since discovering Holdsworth, I will be sure to do so on your recommendation! Anywhere in particular I should start to find the specific language you're referring to? Cheers again!
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition his solo album Sol Niger Within is a good place to start. Then there is this track called "I", 5:40 into that tune there is a solo full of inspiring stuff, I think those are quintuplets going on, very inspiring to me.
@@z1reticuli Will be sure to check this out. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out! Many thanks
nice lesson and nice keisel mate
Thank you for taking the time to say so! She's a beauty ;)
great video
Thank you very much, Julius 😎
Hey Charles, editing, delivery and content here is of the highest quality, This is next level YT, where did you study?
Thank you for your wonderfully supportive comment, James! I studied classical organ at the University of York which was a varied experience. As a contemporary musician I am mostly self taught, with a couple of productive years of studying guitar under James Birkett at The SAGE Gateshead in my teens.
I must say I am envious of that wonderful Tele of yours, a guitar which is likely next on my shopping list! Incredibly tasteful playing too.
Cheers!
Charles Harrison Music Tuition what are the chances!? I have spent some time in lessons with James too! He’s such an inspiring teacher :) I am currently the electric guitar tutor at SAGE for the adult programme, but I am reminded of how I am very much still a student when I hear James or yourself play. I am also studying at the London college of music, my supervisor is an expert on Messiaen, but I’m ashamed to say I find most of his music pretty difficult. Any insights into what I’m missing?
That tele is a Mexican one! I’ve had it around 10 years I think it must have been a good day in the factory when they made it because it’s always been kind to me haha, thank you very much :)
That's mad! James is a great man, I only studied with him for a couple of years but I got a lot more from that and my own studies than I did from any more 'formal' education I underwent.
If you don't understand Messiaen I think that makes you human- nor do I! It is mind boggling stuff, on the same level as Bartok, Coltrane or Holdsworth at their best as far as I understand it. I think it is meant to be felt, rather than understood. Have a drink, close you eyes and just try to immerse yourself in the sound world frequently. I've found that I rarely had a helpful conversation with an academic on the emotional capacity of 20th century composers at they don't fit the taught formula of the preceding classical canon. Perhaps you might try to pick your supervisor's brain on how specific works make him feel, I believe that is much more important than knowing which of the 12 available notes Messiaen decided to press on his organ!
I have found my own chromatic confidence has improved more by deliberately trying to force 'wrong' notes over the chords, than it has by focusing on any one specific scale.
I'd recommend you check out my discussions on hybrid scales 3 or 4 weeks ago and just muck about with those ideas until you start to hear them- it is a life long pursuit as you well know, but I certainly feel more confident 'outside' than I did even 5 years ago, so it does start to come with time!
Hopefully catch you in the Black Swan at some point, once all this nonsense dies down.
Cheers!
Hi Charles, this is an excellent lesson. Haven’t seen you put out new videos lately, hope you are doing okay?
Hi Darren, thanks so much for this mate.
All well at this end thanks. I've had a rough couple of years with my health but also lots of positives too (I got married in July) so UA-cam has taken a bit of a back seat. However, I will definitely be back on track in the coming months so please do keep an eye on the channel!
Thanks again, Charles
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition
Congratulations! And good luck with your health. UA-cam can wait.
Very Interesting 🍁
Thanks Agam, pleased you found this one interesting! What are you practicing currently? Cheers
Tasty!!
Thanks dude!
I was discussing this with my jazz teacher, he recommended the B Augmented Scale for the Giant Steps changes. I have that same REH Holdsworth Book and video and in the Unreal Allan Holdsworth FB group they informed me that 'Scale 10: The Symmetric Scale' is Messaien Mode 3, which brought me here. My question then: How are the Augmented (and not Wholetone) and the Messaien Mode 3 scale similar/ or different? Could they be interchangeable or are there separate applications? Finally, which do you think Coltrane would have used and can you provide an example? Otherwise, awesome video. Keep up the great work! Subbed.
Hi Jeff, thanks very much for taking the time to leave a comment!
First of all, yes this scale is definitely one of Holdsworth's 10 scales. This is possibly where most of us heard about it too!
Regarding the augmented scale vs MM3, they are both constructed from augmented triads.
The augmented scale has two augmented triads. One on the Root and the other a half step below.
The MM3 has three augmented triads. One on the root, one a half step below, and one a tone below the root.
Lastly, Coltrane didn't use this scale on Giant Steps, he took a more traditional bebop/pentatonic approach to his playing over that terrific standard.
To hear a more 'modern' augmented interpretation listen to George Garzone in this video at the 1 hour mark: ua-cam.com/video/dTIwWFa2Rnw/v-deo.html
He demonstrates the augmented application which you and your teacher were talking about. You'll hear it's a very different sound to Coltrane's solos over these changes even though Coltrane was Garzone's reference for developing this sound. Isn't that cool?!
I hope there is something of value in this response and best of luck with it! Cheers again
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition Yeah, Coltrane actually took giant steps from Nicholas Slonimskys book of scales and melodic patterns.
Most probably, however check out this Ravel composition which predates them both... Compositionally either one was certainly the inspiration, however in terms of Coltrane's soloing approach he doesn't employ much in the way of Slonimsky's vocabulary and takes a more traditional 'bebop' approach to the changes. Thanks very much for taking the time to comment 👍 ua-cam.com/video/jA6Il3M_eFg/v-deo.html
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition How could he? Slonimsky did not write it as 'messiaen'. He was merely sequencing notes and giving them names. MATH. Nicholas even explains this in the forward of the book. Of course coletrane didnt employ it as vocabulary. Thats not the book's purpose. Frank Zappa also took cues from that book. As for Ravel, well, we can certainly throw out names of incredible french composers who have broke sonic ground, i suppose. Ravel was most famous but not the most interesting (imho) - I only say that because i've played classical music with the orchestra for 10 years and have heard some obscure compositions from composers long dead that blew my mind. And of course, thanks for taking the time to respond. Always fun to talk about this stuff. I dont get much time to spend on the internet :)
@@breakfastplan4518 It's interesting that you say that, as I consider the book to be very much about melody and 'melodic patterns'. Slonimsky refers to them as 'melodically plausible'. As you are aware, many of these melodic patterns have similarities to Messiaen M3 and M7, the diminished scale and the wholetone scale although of course that was not the author's reference for these patterns, the reference was as you say MATH. I imagine math, and more specifically geometry, was also Messiaen's inspiration for codifying the symmetrical scales in his own writing. And so Coltrane chose not to use Slonimsky's melodies in his improvised solo over Giant Steps, opting for a more traditional bebop approach to the harmony. Not because Slonimsky's ideas wouldn't work melodically, they would have done, but I imagine it was nothing more than an artistic decision on Coltrane's part. Other players such as Holdsworth, Rosenwinkel, O'Gallagher and Veras might lean more into Slonimsky's melodic language on a solo such as this, or not. Again an artistic decision, but certainly an option. That's just my take on it but to me it would be a shame not to consider Slonimsky's book as viable and useable melodies! Cheers
Mode 3 = whole-half diminished scale. This riff is not strictly from mode three. Not sure if that's intentional or just a mistake?
Hi Chad, thanks for taking the time to comment.
What absolutely fantastic playing on your channel, I have subscribed and look forward to your future uploads! I'm confused by the labelling system you are referring to?
Mode 1 is commonly regarded as wholetone
Mode 2 diminished
Mode 3 as discussed in this video
Mode 4 is three semitones built on the root and tritone
Mode 5 is two semitones built on the root and tritone
Mode 6 is the symmetrical major
Mode 7 is four semitones built on the root and tritone
The Wikipedia article lists these in a tidy fashion if you want to check that out.
This video is not about the diminished scale although I have discussed that mode in the attached video ua-cam.com/video/wZRrtXtFxJQ/v-deo.html
I'd love to hear your insights on that one too!
Regarding errors in this video I am sure they are plentiful and manyfold! My intention with this channel is to share my own interpretation of these concepts and I apologise to you and anyone else if I have falsely positioned myself as an authority on anything be it guitar playing, theory or any area of life- I most certainly am not and I have plenty to learn.
Perhaps you'd be kind enough to review the content of this video and post some corrections in a separate comment which I could pin here to help clarify the concepts for future viewers as well as include in an update to this video. Perhaps you might even be willing to discuss your thoughts in video format on your channel? I would be fascinated to hear how a player of your level views these concepts!
I am fascinated to hear your justification as to how this scale doesn't work over a dominant chord (1 3 5 b7) as all of the chord tones are present yet the diminished chord does (with which I agree). I'd love learn where I am misinterpreting that!
Many thanks again for your kind words and for taking the time to help me out, I will always take all the help I can get and look forward to including your advice in a future upload.
Cheers!
Charles
Subscribed.
I knew you were a wise chap! Thank you very much 😊
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition Haha. You are welcome. And that's good to know. Thanks. ;-) Btw, I just picked up Sharp Eleven Music's new Holdsworth book. Messiaen modes get some coverage there...
Thanks for the heads up on that one, I'll be sure to check it out. I have all the Holdsworth books so one more can't hurt! Cheers
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition It happens. :)
What particullar chords can we used this scale....tnx...
Hey dude, I discuss the harmony and intervals at 9:00. Long story short, most chords apart from diminished! Cheers
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition can we also use these into a dominant7 with or without extensions ( b9 #9 b13 etc.)...thanks
@@dharylrillon6441 Hi Dharyl. All 7 Messiaen modes can be used over altered chords. The specific alterations of the chord are worth acknowledging but don't worry 'too' much about the specific scale for a specific chord type, as a good rhythm player will constantly be changing the voicing used anyway. Messiaen mode 3, for example, doesn't have a b9 but it has a 9 and #9. So it depends on what sound you as the player want to create. If you 'want' to create a b9 tonality then the diminished scale I recently discussed, or Messiaen Mode 4 would be a better option. It's up to you to dictate the colour of the tonality you want to achieve, rather than worrying 'too' much about the specific qualities of the chord which the rhythm player may or may not choose to play themselves. Regarding a dominant chord with no extensions at all, then the default would be the mixolydian mode but you'll find that most players wish to spice up a dominant chord with extensions, and therefore scales, of their own choosing, meaning that the Messiaen modes are certainly on the table even in major contexts. Spicing up 2 5 1s is in fact what my next video is going to be about so great timing. Long story short, it's up to you and how far you feel it is appropriate to push the music- some gigs the answer is not very far at all, and others you'll want to go crazy. Hope that helps!
@@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition thank you sir.....godbless and more powers
0:36 - Tomy how? Scrooge?Scruggs?
I can't find it...
Thomas Griggs
It's actually mode 2 that is applicable to dominant 7th chords. Mode 3 can be thought of as the other mode of mode 2, or vice versa. Many mistakes here though the intent is good. Maybe go back and rethink this lesson?
Hi Chad, thanks for taking the time to comment.
What absolutely fantastic playing on your channel, I have subscribed and look forward to your future uploads! I'm confused by the labelling system you are referring to?
Mode 1 is commonly regarded as wholetone
Mode 2 diminished
Mode 3 as discussed in this video
Mode 4 is three semitones built on the root and tritone
Mode 5 is two semitones built on the root and tritone
Mode 6 is the symmetrical major
Mode 7 is four semitones built on the root and tritone
The Wikipedia article lists these in a tidy fashion if you want to check that out.
This video is not about the diminished scale although I have discussed that mode in the attached video ua-cam.com/video/wZRrtXtFxJQ/v-deo.html
I'd love to hear your insights on that one too!
Regarding errors in this video I am sure they are plentiful and manyfold! My intention with this channel is to share my own interpretation of these concepts and I apologise to you and anyone else if I have falsely positioned myself as an authority on anything be it guitar playing, theory or any area of life- I most certainly am not and I have plenty to learn.
Perhaps you'd be kind enough to review the content of this video and post some corrections in a separate comment which I could pin here to help clarify the concepts for future viewers as well as include in an update to this video. Perhaps you might even be willing to discuss your thoughts in video format on your channel? I would be fascinated to hear how a player of your level views these concepts!
I am fascinated to hear your justification as to how this scale doesn't work over a dominant chord (1 3 5 b7) as all of the chord tones are present yet the diminished chord does (with which I agree). I'd love learn where I am misinterpreting that!
Many thanks again for your kind words and for taking the time to help me out, I will always take all the help I can get and look forward to including your advice in a future upload.
Cheers!
Charles
so many words
Appreciate the feedback 👍
я думал, тока у нас любят по-многу болтать,
I certainly do. Cheers!