I really like this idea. My only concern with it is balancing the features against each other. Essentially, we could end up with a similar problem to the 5e Monk. You can do a whole bunch of things with Ki Points, but in most circumstances, your Ki Points are better spent doing one particular action (Stunning Strike) rather than your plethora of options. It basically makes it so it feels like a WASTE of resources to use them on anything else. If you create any stand-out features in your system, it will make those features must-haves, which makes it feel like a waste to do anything else, even if you have 30 different options. Not saying it’s an issue yet (I haven’t seen a full list of features, so I can’t say whether there are stand-outs), but it is definitely a potential to turn this amazing idea into a problem that instead bogs down the creativity of ALL martial classes. Keep up the good work! This comment was not meant to be negative, simply a cautionary analysis of potential issues I see that could arise if proper care isn’t taken!
At the end of the Day, a minmaxer will minmax. I also use a stamina system in my games. Since stamina can be recovered between each turn, those that dont want to minmax are not reduced to use the most optimised or feel like they wasted restricting resources on something less statistically usefull. Quite nice for players who are more focused on the cinematic or strategic/rp aspects of combat.
Yes, one of the main reasons of the Martial-Caster gap is that Casters have so many options of spells that keep increasing, while Martials lack such options so they stay the same. With a list of Maneuvers/Techniques for Martials their customizability and power can be better balanced with that of Casters.
Ive been working on a system and each Martial Role has ~ 10 base Skills with each Sub-Archetype having ~10 exclusive skills. It definitely is way more fun than "swing sword swing sword"
I REALLY like this. I would eventually like to see joint techniques similar to Wonder Woman catapulted off an ally's shield, or two warriors back to back and at a signal, pivot to switch and surprise each other's attacker. Also thinking also about setting shields like the Roman Testudo to cross a battlefield, etc
Everything I wanted for martials. You just keep on fulfilling my dreams of a perfect TTRPG. We, as a community, have an obligation to make DC20 a reality, and make it as popular as it deserves to be.
That is so genius. I am definitely gonna look through the entire PDF, for the last half a year I've been thinking up a system that would take all the good parts of 5e and fix all its mistakes and you seem to be doing something really similar. Cheers to you, sir!
Love the idea of Stamina and Techniques, for a couple of years Ive been Homebrewing something similar in D&D5e by giving all Martials the Superiority Dice and Maneuvers from the Battlemaster so they be more dynamic and have some utility in combat.
Love the system, can't wait to try it out ! I would just say concerning symmetry that martials already have free actions that casters can't really do aside of manoeuvers : just plain and simple weapon attacks.
I had that exact same thought! Until I realized that once a caster gets ONE “attack cantrip” that goes away immediately… and they can target Mental Defesne, while martials NEVER can lol. So I think they are pretty balanced now 💜
Then you might have subclasses like Eldritch Knight that might dip into both resources. Would they have MP spells to restore SP, or SP techniques to restore MP?
god i remember wotc dismissing us and saying that they didn't want to make maneuvers a thing that all martial get because.... honestly i stopped caring what their reasons were.
In the game system i have used and worked on for 14 years uses a stamina and strike system. The system i use has expendable stat points that each class uses for features and martials have strike powers for modification of the attacks they make. This is a neat take on the idea.
im glad the martial characters are getting some love... im just not crazy about this. I think it would be much easier to make it more similar to Mana Points. I do like Stamina being a lower pool, but let it come back at a short rest. As you have it i see combat with my players becoming a seesaw, wac -a-mole.
It is all very understandable and exciting, which is why I am a patreon. Unfortunately, this summer is going to be very hectic for me, and I only hope I don't miss the Kickstarter which I definitely want to support.
This is the same kind of thing I’m doing in my homebrew, except that the stamina mechanic relates directly to staying in the fight. I’ve been planning to use it for both magic and fighting, though. It’s like watching a pro take everything I’ve wanted to put into a game and building it from the ground up. Just got the Alpha, and I’m really looking forward to June.
Man this is giving me so many ideas! I feel like you could base an entire other game just off that mechanic! I think I would do rogues gain stamina when they hide, barbarians could be similar to warlocks and use all they stamina in one move. Then recover chunks at a time. Monks seem like they will be really fun to play. Juggling Ki and stamina.
Sounds a lot like what I ended up using in my own system, only I did make things like "rage" and "energy" separate resources. The only issue I have while playing is that it's sometimes hard to remember to tick them up and down all the time.
This is awesome. Martials were so underwheling in DND 5E. They don't have as much cool abilities as magicians. I much prefer the World of Warcraft approach of giving martials the same treatment as magicians. This video really reminds me of that. Martial classes have spell-like abilities. They also use reasources for the abilities. Reasources are displayed as color coded bars. Everybody gets health, which is a green bar. Then the bar below is a resource for using abilities. Most classes have mana, which is a blue bar. Mana is specifically used for mana. It starts out high and it gradually goes down in battle. It recovers slowly. Three martial classes use other kinds of reasources. They are warrior, rogue and hunter. Warriors have rage, which is a red bar. It starts out empty. Then it fills up as the warrior influcts and recieves melee damage. Being more powerful by getting beaten up is a good fit for the main tanking class. Rogues have energy, which is a yellow bar. It starts out full. Then it depleates and recovers a lot more quickly than mana. That gets into the speedy nature of a rogue. Rogues also have a combo point systems. Weaker abilities gain points. Stronger abilities use points. Hunters have focus, which is orange. Honestly, focus works in a way that is really similar to mana. Hunters used to use mana in the early versions of the game. I think the focus makes hunters less versitile, so they won't grab all the loot in dungeons. They can't use gear very well, if the gear was designed for magicians. There are two classes that can change thier reasources through use of stances. Both are hybrid classes. One is the monk. The monk has energy and combo points like a rogue. It does refer to combo points as chi though. However the monk can change stances. One stance is used for healing instead of unarmed strikes. That stance uses mana instead of energy. The other class is druid. It mainly has mana. It can cast spells for damage and hesling. The druid also has animal forms to do melee fighting. Bear form resembles the warrior and uses rage. Cat form resembles the rogue and uses energy and combo points. The counter argument is that imporoving martials makes classes too samey. DND 4E showed a lot of fairness and love for martials. Yet that got criticized. I argue that martials are still very unique even with equal treatment. The difference between melee and ranged fighting has a huge effect on how tactics works. The table top version has position of minitures on a grid. A video game like World of Warcraft has characters move around in a 3D space. There is an interesting tradeoff. Going into meelee damage allows one to deal more damage with thier melee attacks. However it also exposes one to the melee attacks of the opponent. So melee is more offensive in a way, while ranged combat is more defensive. Defense works really differently. Priest is the defensive magician. It aids defense by healing. It has a support role. Warrior is the defensive martial. It aids by mitigating damage. It has the tank role.
This stamina mechanic could work in an arcane class like a warlock or a sorcerer. Each stamina point is a spell level above cantrip they could cast. 1st lvl = 1 arcane point 2nd lvl = 2 arcane points etc. You would top out at 5th-6th lvl like a half caster but you could seriously throw some smack down indefinitely. Maybe you regain a point with every time you roll a certain number or better on an arcane attack roll. Just an idea
Out of curiosity, last video you said that casters don't need foci or any materials to cast spells, and I assume that same goes for martials. So my archer can do all their ranged techniques without the need of any bow and arrow or outher equipment? I mean, outherwise it would be kinda unfair that one group of classes could be easily disarmed while the outhers never could.
Oh for sure. A tanky character, like a fighter or barbarian, should have some special abilities to reduce damage. That would use stamina. Maybe rogues can use stamina for special dodging abilities. If they reduce the opponent's accuracy that is defensive in a way.
Stamina does exist in Pathfinder? It was in pathfinder1e with a feat that let you use other feats more dynamically, and exists in starfinder as a resource that is emptied before your hp, and as a variant rule in pathfinder 2e the same way it works in starfinder.
i play Pathfinder 1e, there is this thing called maneuvers that just without expending a resource let you do cool shit and over time you unlock more and more, some are boosts, some are stances ad the rest are special ways to attack or counter an attack after a check
Would a better name for this system be adrenaline points since it stamina suggests energy while adrenaline is something that can realistically be gained and spent in battle
The system seems really cool. The only thing I'm not totally sold on is the name. Stamina doesn't feel like the right term for this. I'm having trouble working out what seems more fitting to me though. I was going to say something like Momentum or Effort, but those don't feel quite right either.
I’d be interested to hear your justification for that. In every high-level game I have played, the casters are the powerhouses. Being able to completely shut down enemies with spells like Force Cage, Banishment, or Mass Suggestion makes damage done by martials irrelevant (hurting something doesn’t matter if you can just make the enemy not an issue at all). Couple that with AOE and control spells (fireball can make several enemies lose a ton of health, and spells like Slow and Spike Growth completely force enemies to completely redesign their attack, or limit them to the point that they can do nothing). You end up with casters largely able to trivialize combat, which ends up more valuable than anything the martials are doing. If you solely look at DPR, martials are still underpowered, when spells like Disintegrate or Scorching Ray can deal pretty insane damage. Even without expending resources, since cantrips scale with level, a wizard throwing a firebolt is still not doing significantly less than a fighter throwing out 4 attacks (ignoring action surge, since we are comparing a resourceless turn). There are other comparisons that can be made (stuff like Spirit Guardians) that will make certain rounds situationally high damage, but that is just my take. Why do you feel that martials outdo casters at high levels?
Stamina sounds like a cool mechanic. My favorite part is the ways the various Classes can recover their Stamina points.
I really like this idea. My only concern with it is balancing the features against each other. Essentially, we could end up with a similar problem to the 5e Monk. You can do a whole bunch of things with Ki Points, but in most circumstances, your Ki Points are better spent doing one particular action (Stunning Strike) rather than your plethora of options. It basically makes it so it feels like a WASTE of resources to use them on anything else.
If you create any stand-out features in your system, it will make those features must-haves, which makes it feel like a waste to do anything else, even if you have 30 different options.
Not saying it’s an issue yet (I haven’t seen a full list of features, so I can’t say whether there are stand-outs), but it is definitely a potential to turn this amazing idea into a problem that instead bogs down the creativity of ALL martial classes.
Keep up the good work! This comment was not meant to be negative, simply a cautionary analysis of potential issues I see that could arise if proper care isn’t taken!
At the end of the Day, a minmaxer will minmax.
I also use a stamina system in my games. Since stamina can be recovered between each turn, those that dont want to minmax are not reduced to use the most optimised or feel like they wasted restricting resources on something less statistically usefull. Quite nice for players who are more focused on the cinematic or strategic/rp aspects of combat.
I think with action point costs and penalties there may be a new dimension to balance and weight those situations
Yes, one of the main reasons of the Martial-Caster gap is that Casters have so many options of spells that keep increasing, while Martials lack such options so they stay the same. With a list of Maneuvers/Techniques for Martials their customizability and power can be better balanced with that of Casters.
Ive been working on a system and each Martial Role has ~ 10 base Skills with each Sub-Archetype having ~10 exclusive skills. It definitely is way more fun than "swing sword swing sword"
There may have been a version of D&D that addressed this very problem! ;-)
I REALLY like this. I would eventually like to see joint techniques similar to Wonder Woman catapulted off an ally's shield, or two warriors back to back and at a signal, pivot to switch and surprise each other's attacker. Also thinking also about setting shields like the Roman Testudo to cross a battlefield, etc
Gogo DC20! 💜💜💜
I read this to the tune of the MMPR theme.
Everything I wanted for martials. You just keep on fulfilling my dreams of a perfect TTRPG. We, as a community, have an obligation to make DC20 a reality, and make it as popular as it deserves to be.
Love the playstyle encouraged stamina recovery system
So excited for this game! Can't wait for it to finish development :)
Of all the big things in this system stamina has got to be in my top 3 favorites. So creative and simple!
I’m super excited for DC20!
This was an optional rule that existed in 3.5. Then it was in a sourcebook Book of Nine Swords. It's good but hardly the first time it's been tried.
It’s not about the uniqueness of the mechanic, but the functionality.
As yes! The Book of Fightan’ Magic!
Lovin' it Coach! Keep up the DC20 takeover!
SOO MUCH LOVE FOR MARTIALS
That is so genius. I am definitely gonna look through the entire PDF, for the last half a year I've been thinking up a system that would take all the good parts of 5e and fix all its mistakes and you seem to be doing something really similar. Cheers to you, sir!
DC20 FTW!!! Stamina regained differently for each class 👌👌👌
Love the idea of Stamina and Techniques, for a couple of years Ive been Homebrewing something similar in D&D5e by giving all Martials the Superiority Dice and Maneuvers from the Battlemaster so they be more dynamic and have some utility in combat.
Love the system, can't wait to try it out ! I would just say concerning symmetry that martials already have free actions that casters can't really do aside of manoeuvers : just plain and simple weapon attacks.
I had that exact same thought! Until I realized that once a caster gets ONE “attack cantrip” that goes away immediately… and they can target Mental Defesne, while martials NEVER can lol. So I think they are pretty balanced now 💜
Great video. 👍🏻 DC20 💜
Then you might have subclasses like Eldritch Knight that might dip into both resources.
Would they have MP spells to restore SP, or SP techniques to restore MP?
god i remember wotc dismissing us and saying that they didn't want to make maneuvers a thing that all martial get because.... honestly i stopped caring what their reasons were.
In the game system i have used and worked on for 14 years uses a stamina and strike system. The system i use has expendable stat points that each class uses for features and martials have strike powers for modification of the attacks they make.
This is a neat take on the idea.
im glad the martial characters are getting some love... im just not crazy about this. I think it would be much easier to make it more similar to Mana Points. I do like Stamina being a lower pool, but let it come back at a short rest.
As you have it i see combat with my players becoming a seesaw, wac -a-mole.
It is all very understandable and exciting, which is why I am a patreon. Unfortunately, this summer is going to be very hectic for me, and I only hope I don't miss the Kickstarter which I definitely want to support.
I hope a digital table top comes out for this system
This is the same kind of thing I’m doing in my homebrew, except that the stamina mechanic relates directly to staying in the fight. I’ve been planning to use it for both magic and fighting, though. It’s like watching a pro take everything I’ve wanted to put into a game and building it from the ground up. Just got the Alpha, and I’m really looking forward to June.
There are lots of small cool things in DC20. Imo this is one of the biggest and coolest changes
I um attack, then I… attack aaaannnnd I think that’s it
Literally died laughing when I read this lol!!!
Man this is giving me so many ideas! I feel like you could base an entire other game just off that mechanic! I think I would do rogues gain stamina when they hide, barbarians could be similar to warlocks and use all they stamina in one move. Then recover chunks at a time. Monks seem like they will be really fun to play. Juggling Ki and stamina.
Sounds a lot like what I ended up using in my own system, only I did make things like "rage" and "energy" separate resources. The only issue I have while playing is that it's sometimes hard to remember to tick them up and down all the time.
This is awesome. Martials were so underwheling in DND 5E. They don't have as much cool abilities as magicians. I much prefer the World of Warcraft approach of giving martials the same treatment as magicians. This video really reminds me of that. Martial classes have spell-like abilities. They also use reasources for the abilities. Reasources are displayed as color coded bars. Everybody gets health, which is a green bar. Then the bar below is a resource for using abilities. Most classes have mana, which is a blue bar. Mana is specifically used for mana. It starts out high and it gradually goes down in battle. It recovers slowly. Three martial classes use other kinds of reasources. They are warrior, rogue and hunter. Warriors have rage, which is a red bar. It starts out empty. Then it fills up as the warrior influcts and recieves melee damage. Being more powerful by getting beaten up is a good fit for the main tanking class. Rogues have energy, which is a yellow bar. It starts out full. Then it depleates and recovers a lot more quickly than mana. That gets into the speedy nature of a rogue. Rogues also have a combo point systems. Weaker abilities gain points. Stronger abilities use points. Hunters have focus, which is orange. Honestly, focus works in a way that is really similar to mana. Hunters used to use mana in the early versions of the game. I think the focus makes hunters less versitile, so they won't grab all the loot in dungeons. They can't use gear very well, if the gear was designed for magicians. There are two classes that can change thier reasources through use of stances. Both are hybrid classes. One is the monk. The monk has energy and combo points like a rogue. It does refer to combo points as chi though. However the monk can change stances. One stance is used for healing instead of unarmed strikes. That stance uses mana instead of energy. The other class is druid. It mainly has mana. It can cast spells for damage and hesling. The druid also has animal forms to do melee fighting. Bear form resembles the warrior and uses rage. Cat form resembles the rogue and uses energy and combo points.
The counter argument is that imporoving martials makes classes too samey. DND 4E showed a lot of fairness and love for martials. Yet that got criticized. I argue that martials are still very unique even with equal treatment. The difference between melee and ranged fighting has a huge effect on how tactics works. The table top version has position of minitures on a grid. A video game like World of Warcraft has characters move around in a 3D space. There is an interesting tradeoff. Going into meelee damage allows one to deal more damage with thier melee attacks. However it also exposes one to the melee attacks of the opponent. So melee is more offensive in a way, while ranged combat is more defensive. Defense works really differently. Priest is the defensive magician. It aids defense by healing. It has a support role. Warrior is the defensive martial. It aids by mitigating damage. It has the tank role.
This stamina mechanic could work in an arcane class like a warlock or a sorcerer. Each stamina point is a spell level above cantrip they could cast. 1st lvl = 1 arcane point 2nd lvl = 2 arcane points etc. You would top out at 5th-6th lvl like a half caster but you could seriously throw some smack down indefinitely. Maybe you regain a point with every time you roll a certain number or better on an arcane attack roll. Just an idea
Bro literally rewrote book of nineswords and is being praised, and people STILL hate on 3.5 who literally invented this
...Who is hating on 3.5?
@@firelordeliteast6750 Every 5e player and every grognard on the planet
@@punishedwhispers1218 I have yet to meet a 5e player who hates on 3.5. You don't need to fight imaginary demons to praise 3.5.
Sacrifice RPG (a D20 retroclone) did this years ago. It's a cool mechanic.
Out of curiosity, last video you said that casters don't need foci or any materials to cast spells, and I assume that same goes for martials. So my archer can do all their ranged techniques without the need of any bow and arrow or outher equipment? I mean, outherwise it would be kinda unfair that one group of classes could be easily disarmed while the outhers never could.
Well, spell casters can still be "disarmed" by blinding them, preventing them from being able to talk, or binding their hands.
I expect that you already plan to do this, but expending stamina to reduce incoming damage would be cool.
Oh for sure. A tanky character, like a fighter or barbarian, should have some special abilities to reduce damage. That would use stamina. Maybe rogues can use stamina for special dodging abilities. If they reduce the opponent's accuracy that is defensive in a way.
Do you have stamina/mana potions?
Maybe small stamina/mana potion gives 1/2 points for 50gp as hp potion?
Stamina does exist in Pathfinder? It was in pathfinder1e with a feat that let you use other feats more dynamically, and exists in starfinder as a resource that is emptied before your hp, and as a variant rule in pathfinder 2e the same way it works in starfinder.
i play Pathfinder 1e, there is this thing called maneuvers that just without expending a resource let you do cool shit and over time you unlock more and more, some are boosts, some are stances ad the rest are special ways to attack or counter an attack after a check
The cools dnd thing I've ever heard I'm stealing it lol thanks
Level Up a5e have Exertions Points to use special maneuvers of witch all martial classes . But you have some cool ideas there .👍
Such a cool mechanic
Would a better name for this system be adrenaline points since it stamina suggests energy while adrenaline is something that can realistically be gained and spent in battle
Stamina feats are in Pathfinder though?
I got the Alternate fighter from Lazerllama and there is no way me or my players go back.
The system seems really cool. The only thing I'm not totally sold on is the name. Stamina doesn't feel like the right term for this. I'm having trouble working out what seems more fitting to me though. I was going to say something like Momentum or Effort, but those don't feel quite right either.
Vigor points?
Oomph points?
Brawl points?
Fight points?
Combat points?
Breath points?
Momentum sounds good
Could stamina be used as a reaction in response to a failed might or agility check in combat to help boast the roll?
Why would you need to boast a roll?
Can you have Stamina and Mana
So the 15 minute work day is alive and well in dc20?
Yeah way to step back 20years.
🎉
The martial-caste divide is overstated. Anyone who has played high level games knows that martials absolutely destroy all combat compared to casters.
I’d be interested to hear your justification for that. In every high-level game I have played, the casters are the powerhouses. Being able to completely shut down enemies with spells like Force Cage, Banishment, or Mass Suggestion makes damage done by martials irrelevant (hurting something doesn’t matter if you can just make the enemy not an issue at all).
Couple that with AOE and control spells (fireball can make several enemies lose a ton of health, and spells like Slow and Spike Growth completely force enemies to completely redesign their attack, or limit them to the point that they can do nothing). You end up with casters largely able to trivialize combat, which ends up more valuable than anything the martials are doing.
If you solely look at DPR, martials are still underpowered, when spells like Disintegrate or Scorching Ray can deal pretty insane damage. Even without expending resources, since cantrips scale with level, a wizard throwing a firebolt is still not doing significantly less than a fighter throwing out 4 attacks (ignoring action surge, since we are comparing a resourceless turn).
There are other comparisons that can be made (stuff like Spirit Guardians) that will make certain rounds situationally high damage, but that is just my take.
Why do you feel that martials outdo casters at high levels?
Seems like a more dynamic version of how Level Up Advanced 5e does its effort points and maneuvers system
Pathfinder 1e literally has an optional stamina system
⚔🪓🛡