Ballistics Gel Test: Are 6.5mm cartridges sufficient for big game?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- I have hunted many animals with the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC. In this video, I dive into whether or not they are suitable cartridges for hunting game larger than deer.
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Blue Wildebeest are some of the toughest African game, that's why we call them the poor man's buffalo. We shot one on a hunt in September with a 30.06, 180gr, perfect shot placement, and it still ran for close to a mile- so you might not have had much different results with a bigger caliber. Just got a 6.5 Creedmoor myself, and very keen to start testing it in the bush. Thanks for the great video!
Deer>
Give us some feedback on the 6.5 creed on the Africa game. Bullet type and size, shoulder shot vs tradional behind the shoulder, animal size.
@@Savoy_6 Sure, my Creedmoor has been in the field with me a bunch of times now, and it's done very well in the thick bush. I started with the Hornady ELD-X 143gr, which I decided was better for longer distances on the plains. But I moved over to a heavier bullet for the bush, where your average shooting distance is 80 yards. Currently I'm using Sellier & Bellot 156gr, and it's done tremendously well. I've always preferred shooting behind the shoulder, it's a lot less damage and meat loss. The Creedmoor does quite a bit of damage at such a short distance, and there's a decent amount of fragmentation, but all the shots I've taken have gone through the animal. The game I've taken down have been mostly smaller game: warthog, impala and blesbuck, blesbuck being the biggest (70kg, or 150 pounds roughly). Headshots and spine shots have worked particularly well. I do have an acquaintance who took a shoulder shot on a Blue Wildebeest with a Creedmoor, the bullet didn't penetrate through the bone, and the shot wasn't fatal. So on bigger game your shot placement is much more important. Hope this helps.
I know that in Sweden the 6,5 x 55 SE or 6,5 Swedish has been used for Moose hunting for over a hundred years so I think good shot placement is truly the deciding factor. Flinching with a 300 win mag would probably, in most situations, be worse than a good 6,5 shot, the exception being obviously elephants and big dangerous African game. That’s my two cents
I totally agree! 6.5 Swede and the 6.5-264 Norma are fantastic hunting cartridges. High BC projectiles retain energy, drift less, High SD for deep penetration (with the correct bullet selection) lighter recoiling, and accurate. I prefer all copper projectiles as I know there is little chance of having a bullet failure even if presented a very close shot and it will retain damn near all its weight, I know the copper ballistic tip/hollow point is going to do its job. Cup and core, soft points, and even some modern A frame and bonded bullets do fail or lose a significant amount of bullet weight leading to poor outcomes.
Moose in Sweden are somewhat smaller then those in North America
I love the 6.5 prc. It does it all and with minimal recoil. Deer, hogs, elk, black bear, moose, and more! Ive seen too many vids of the prc absolutely light it up to think its too small to do the job. Compound that with its flat trajectory, its a winner! It penetrated the most on your test as-well! Total package imo.
I hunt elk with 6.5 prc and I've shot many over 400 yards. It requires a follow up shot. Other than that, it's a great flat shooting round.
@@iblongshia everyone has their opinions. Personally, I disagree. But, nothing can be too dead. Best of luck to you!
@@iblongshia If your shot placement's on target and you needed a follow up shot, you're using the wrong bullet for the distance.
@@TechieTard I switched to 6.5 prc for fun, just because I wanted to but I found out that shots past 400 yards (even with good shot placement) doesn't have enough knock down power. I've since gone back to my 300wm or 300 ultramag for further shot's.
The PRC is a great round imo but the ELD-X is a poorly designed bullet for big game. I would have zero issues elk or moose hunting if I was running 140 grain Partitions, Accubonds, or TTSXs.
I've taken a lot of game over the years, ever since I was of legal age to hunt(14 for Archery, 16 for firearm in my state back then). I've always sort of laughed off the idea of people trying to buy a rifle/cartridge in the effort of ensuring they "drop em in their tracks". Short of a perfectly placed head shot or a spine shot, you can't really guarantee that no matter the cartridge in my experience. These animals are incredibly resilient and they're all different. I've talked to a lot of people on that quest for either a new rifle or new bullet that will "drop em", in my experience it's a never ending quest.
I had to hunt with a shotgun for many years as well, both 20ga and 12ga & with both rifled slugs and sabots, prior to my county becoming a rifle-eligible county. When you see a whitetail take a 1oz slug to the heart & lungs at 20 yards and still run 100 yards, you sort of get a new perspective when they can take all that energy and keep running on adrenaline, and when you field dress them you see the utter devastation and wonder how the hell it's possible. And then on the flip side of that, I've seen deer hit at 200 yards with a 95 grain .243 bullet drop instantly, with far less internal damage caused compared to a much heavier shotgun slug. That bullet will be moving a hell of a lot faster than the 1oz slug, even with the range difference, but in terms of energy on target, the slug wins hands down when you compare those two specific cases.
These days, I whitetail hunt pretty exclusively with .308, due to the land I hunt and the ranges I can shoot at. My rifles tend to prefer hunting bullets in the 165 grain weight range over 150 grainers. I've also moved away from lead bullets and use Barnes TTSX pretty exclusively these days. The accuracy, weight retention and penetration has all been superb.
Coming from a shotgun only country, smoothbores with slugs not accurate enough, yet buckshot was quite efective on deer, Ups, you had to sneak within 35 Yds, That was long before screw in chokes, I extended my range when I got a 30-30 barrel and had it turned to fit my 12 Ga barrel
👍👍👍
Hornady SST 150 in my .308 blows up quick and jellies internals.👍
The ELD-X is one of those rapidly expanding bullets that dump every foot pound in the game. This is good, but often doesn't leave a blood trail if the target doesn't drop. I am a fair chase WT guide in SC and see over 50 deer a year shot by hunters. I firmly believe that penetration coupled with proper shot placement is paramount. Look for a bullet that exits yet still expands. I have good results with the Barnes TSX line.
I switched to copper because the ELD-X was to harsh on the meat... Barnes TTSX and Sako's Powerhead Blade is awesome
Understanding sectional density will help a ton with this exact issue. 2 totally different cartridges can have similar penetration if their sectional densities are the same. Also, the same cartridge can have poor penetration on the light weight grain vs great penetration on the heavy weight grain. Always good to understand this when choosing a weight grain.
I know it's a completely anecdotal, but I shot a fairly small/medium sized deer at about 15 yards with a 12 gauge slug. He ran about 50-70 yards and then collapsed. When my dad and I were field dressing him (my first deer at 12), he did not have a heart and most of his lungs were blown up. It's pretty amazing what an animal can do on addrenaline alone.
That's one of the most impressive stories I've heard in a while!
Probably didn’t have an exit wound though
@@JTTTTT850 I don't think it did. I think the rib on the other side was cracked, but no exit.
7mm mag. May have only penetrated 1/4" more, but on game it thumps harder than all the other cartriges mentioned by a big margin. I have a .300 rcm which is the parent case to the 6.5 prc and it is a nice cartridge for all game in the lower 48.
DRT requires a hit/distruption in the central nervous system. If both lungs and heart is penetrated all that is keeping the animal alive is the oxygen in the muscles and brain. After that its dead. But It can run far...
Or mechanical damage, shoot the shoulders and it cant move the legs etc etc.
I like your mature ethical approach and fact based assessments
So I purchased a 6.5 CM last year. I have taken 4 deer with it between the two hunting seasons. Shooting a Federal Premium Trophy Copper 120 grain.
Deer #1 fully mature doe approximately 110-120 lbs, shot was 200 yards with good shot placement deer went about 50 yards with an excellent blood trail.
Deer #2 medium size doe around 100 lbs , 75 yard shot she was dead before she hit the ground never moved.
Deer#3 another mature doe 110-120 lbs 60 yard shot also went straight down no tracking necessary.
Deer#4 this was the first buck Iv taken with the 6.5 CM and this bullet. He was a 3 year old buck around 160-170 lbs, shot was 155 yards the bullet placement was in the vitals but maybe an inch or two back. The bullet entered the deer but did not pass through it appears it just came apart. Both lungs and liver were completely turned into mush. He ran over 200 yards and left no blood trail, I was very surprised by this after the results on the first 3 deer.
I’m starting to wonder if I should move up to a heavier bullet maybe the Barns LRX 127 grain or heavier yet the Hornady ELDX 143 grain. What’s your thoughts? Thanks
Update- 1/10/22
Took another deer with this same load 120 grain Federal Trophy Copper. An adult doe shot was 90 yards and she dropped in her tracks. Never twitched. So 3 out of 5 Whitetails taken with this load out of the 6.5 CM have dropped. I’m just confused about #4 that ran 200 yards without an exit hole. Still would like your thoughts on going to a heavier projectile. Thanks
Obviously bigger hits harder, but that doesn't always mean it's better. I have a friend who took his 15 year old daughter out for her first elk hunt with a 6.5 CM Ruger Predator rifle. He trained her all summer, even made her do wind sprints to get her heart rate up.
She got her elk with one shot on a high shoulder shot at 350 yards. The elk made it 15 yards and tipped over. She wouldn't have been able to do that with a magnum or even a 180 gr 308. Recoil would have made her flinch. The point is that the 6.5 was and is up to the task and proves it over and over. Not saying it's always better, but in this case it probably was.
I would’ve been curious to see how a 30-06 would’ve stacked up against these cartridges
It's all shot placement. Plenty of professional cull hunters in Africa hunt just about every plains game with 5.56.
@@MrMalicious5
Correct but culling is all about headshots. If you shoot body shots on a cull you will lose money as you lose carcass weight. I wont shoot an Eland on the shoulder with a 223Rem but it would work for headshots.
I have culled a bunch of animals with my 22-250 because it's flat shooting, low recoiling and economic to shoot. I won't hunt bigger animals with a 22-250 etc. as I have seen them fail on body shots too many times.
Shot placement is always key but the bullet has to be tough and travel fast enough to penetrate deep enough to kill.
On a ballistics aspect a 6.5 PRC carries more energy from the 160-200yd mark and onward, under that distance the 30-06 has more energy. Has more to do with the BC than anything and having a larger bullet in the 30-06 would pose an argument that the actual energy isn’t the best medium to measure lethality. Would definitely be a good comparison video
@@BartTheSpartan is that still true with a 30-06 nosler or barnes vortex bullet with a ballistic tip? I have 180gr balistic tip nosler rounds that shoot 2750fps, or a 168gr that shoots 2900fps?
@@MrMalicious5 That is so crazy! I would never have thought that
6.5(264)has always had exceptional penetrating abilities from the 6.5x55 to the 6.5-06,264 winchester and rem mags the 6.5-06 ironically sets between 25-06 and 270 but will smoke both.
Your son is a good shot. I shot a good Mule deer in Wy. two years ago with a Federal Premium Barnes TSX 165 gr. Copper Hollow Point bullet at 300 yards. I have to admit I was skeptical of a high velocity hollow point bullet. Not only was the ammo dead on at 300 yards, but the only place that Muley went was straight down with zero meat lost. Copper bullets are the way to go!! The Copper Hollow Point had great mushrooming without sending shards all over the animal. In fact I had zero shards that ruined meat. I immediately bought a custom turret and more of the same ammo. I have a tag this year for the same area, and can't wait!!
I would live to see that same test with 7mag vs 7mm-08
I read one of WDM Bell's book on African hunting elephants (and other game) using a 7mm Mauser. He used nothing but 'solids' (FMJ) and stated the long of beam (no pencil point) semi rounded head ammo stayed true on its course through the head of an elephant best of all designs. He stated velocites 2200-2400 fps, about 170-180 grains were his choice. He used 303 British and sometimes a 318. He killed a ton of plains game with a 6.5 of some sort. He was a fantastic shot way beyond the pale of normal people though, and his bullet placement was exact.
It’s not just about penetration. It about energy dumped into the animal
I was hunting with a guy who had a 300WM and saw him shoot a button buck ( Mule Deer ) @ 200 yrds, broadside, double lung, dumping frothy red blood.... little thing ran full tilt about 80 yards and hit a tree breaking its scull. Huge blood trail and massive exit wound. The guy was new to hunting and this was his first deer. Point is that this was a 80ish pound deer hit with a good shot from a 300WM and the deer ran while basically dead.
I love the fact that you are not all biased I own a few guns chambered the same with different set up meaning AR vs bolt...I personally think that can change pressure and should be noted. Like I said awesome job keep up the good work!👍
Sectional Density used to be the determining factor in penetration on game. For years hunters picked heavy for caliber bullets at modest velocities and relied on momentum and Sectional Density to drive bullets deep. The 160 gr round nose in the 6.5x55 Swede is a known moose killer in this configuration. The 220 gr round nose in the 06 was taken all over Africa and Asia with good success. The advent of higher velocity cartridges makes deep penetration difficult. As velocity increases, so does expansion. As expansion increases, so does shock trauma, but at the expense of penetration. For heavy game using high velocity cartridges and loads, bullet selection becomes crucial. Monolithic expanding bullets like the Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX, and partitioned bullets like the Nosler Partition and Swift Aframe have a good reputation for handling big game with magnum rifle velocity and still exhibiting good penetration. But still to this day, large caliber non-expanding round nose slugs with excellent Sectional Densities at moderate velocity are preferred for the largest and toughest game.
I shot a good sized whitetail doe (about the same size as an 8 point buck in the party) during the Nov 21 WI deer season just above the heart with a 165 grain Hornady GMX .308 out of a 20" Rem 700 LTR at about 145 yards (using laser rangefinder). It was a broadside shot that zipped right through her at a slight angle. She ran over 150 yards, and nearly crossed into the adjacent property. Next hunt will be a using a bullet less stout for whitetail. GMX and copper penetrate a lot - probably a nice elk round at moderate ranges. I'm prepping for an elk hunt in Nevada and will probably run .30-06 150 grain Federal Copper E-Tip (dropped a 6x6 with the Win 70 at 50 yards DRT), a separate .300 Win Mag (round TBD), and possibly a 6.5 Creedmoor (testing Eagle Eye, Winchester Expedition, and Hornady). I figure an elk range of about 350-400 yards with the '06 and 6.5 and about 600 with the 300 WM. I really enjoy the range practice and just test on 1 gallon water jugs as I usually don't have time for gel. Nice vid, and that kid is a great shot (shot placement rules anyways!).
I haven't had a whitetail deer move at all after short range shots with my Marlin 1895 XLR using 325 grain Hornady LeverEvolution - 3 separate deer all down hard. Not useful for long range necessarily but .458 rounds really destroy 1 gallon water jugs and stop deer in their tracks (all those were heart shots inside of 75 yards so YMMV). I hope to use 350 .45-70 Buffalo Bore on a bison hunt but it never panned out,.
You are right on the money. Next to shot placement bullet construction is very important.
Love the experimentation and process... It does reveal some interesting points (pun intended) with regards to projectile profile + construction and speed vs. penetration in the cartridges you selected. I'd like the additional test added to this (same process) for example/comparison using .375 H&H... like a plain jane, yet typically good/accurate/reliable loading in Federal factory load of 300gr. power-shock soft-points. As we know... perhaps one of the most versatile allrounders for safari and heavier game without the requirements/need for more complex bullet constructions. I use the .375 H&H for just about everything here in Alaska. Have always been a fan of the 300gr. Nosler Partition. Sometimes here the hunter is doing the hunting... sometimes the hunter is stalked and the hunted. Also be of comparison interest to use a stiff load in a muzzleloader or 12 ga 3" Black Magic Bren. slug in same experiment.
You my dear sir are absolutely correct. I follow you religiously, and you’re absolutely right about the 6.5’s. Got a 308 & 6.5. Like them booth. There is a video from Ur Ultimate Reloader I believe ! Is call fast 308 in witch they test load a 308 load with a lighter bullet and can mimic a 6.5, but my feelings are the same , deer down.
Thanks for all you do.
In a test like this it makes sense they penetrate close to the same. You need a super slow motion camera to see the amount of gel disturbance with each shot. You would see the 7 mag dumps a lot more energy.
Hey. Thanks for the content. I used to be a wildlife vet in South Africa and on occasion I had to cull a few different species (for breeding programs etc). I have an experience with wildebeest in which I shot a wildebeest with a .308 (perfect placement, was shooting from a helicopter and shot through the spine, through the heart and out through the sternum). This animal dropped on a dime, then I proceeded to see it stand up and run for the next 10 min. The reason I know the placement of the shot was I performed a post mortem on it. I have seen wildebeest break a neck by running into a tree, get up and carry on running. Wildebeest are probably one of the toughest animals on the planet in my opinion. So your experience hunting a single animal is understandable, especially if you are not used to this. I do agree though, the bigger the cartridge the better for humane reasons though. But don't take the African game likely, they are a lot hardier than deer.
Thanks again
Though I have no way to quantity the energy expended watching the gel block there was definitely a difference in how far it jumped... and the energy it used to move.
Perhaps containing the gel to remove this variable if you are just testing for penetration?
Nice visual btw
Best change I’ve ever made was changing to Barnes TTSX!! Awesome bullets. Use 180s for my 308, 70s in my daughters AR 223.
Unlike the others, the 7mm destroyed the pallet with it's massive energy dump. That translates into hydrostatic shock which will drop the animal in it's tracks.
Sectional density is superb in the 6.5, that gives you penetration, its why the 6.5 works so good
I switched to Barnes bullets in my 7 mag… First buck I shot with it in the shoulder on purpose ran like 75 yards. I was a little upset until I saw the blood trail, you couldn’t have poured more blood out of a bucket. That is what they are for, wound channels and lots of traceable blood. I shot a doe last yr with a ballistic silvertip Winchester at 250+ yards behind the shoulder with 25-06…. She was in the open so I saw her fall, little to no blood but totally wrecked on the inside. She was bloodshot for a foot. Both great bullets but fit for different situations.
I shoot a Savage FLCP-SR 308 hunting. My bullet of preference is the SST from Hornady. Hunting in Western Colorado shots can range from 50 to 1000+ in some of the areas we hunt. I have made 1 shot kills on Elk the past couple years at 75 and at 512 yards shooting the Hornady Superformance 150 SST. Bullet performance was fantastic and the round is easy to shoot and very accurate in my rifle. I don't think I would push the round beyond 500 but I cannot argue with its performance out to 500. Bullet design and accuracy are the key to successful kill shots on game.
If you want a good penetrating bullet for the 6.5 Creedmoor, try the 127 gr Barnes LRX
My son took a great 6x6 bull elk last year using the 127 Barnes LRX in 6.5 Creed. Granted it was only 110 yards. But we have come to like that bullet for his Creed. I use Nosler 130 AB in my 6.5 PRC and it has always been "no tracking required".
I love your channel I swear you make some of your videos just for me
Totally agree with your conclusions:
Penetration is not proportional to velocity, unless you shoot a solid.
Bullet construction is paramount.
Penetration is important, but it’s not everything.
The caliber (frontal area) is also very important for bigger, tougher game. For tough animals the wound channel size is as important as pure penetration.
The problem with your shot on the blue wildebeest is twofold: (1) weak bullet construction (ELD-X is not a bonded bullet, this issue with ELD-X has been explained countless times on UA-cam). (2) The second issue is that a 6.5mm caliber is on the light side for a blue wildebeest (a very tough animal). I have shot countless of them, in 2023 alone eight. All with my 375 shooting Nosler Accubond or Swift A-frame. Not to say that you need 375 for a blue wildebeest, but they are not called “the poor man’s buffalo” for nothing and they deserve some respect. With a Nosler Accubond, Federal Fusion, Swift A-frame, Nosler Partition and the like your 6.5 PRC would have killed it faster. With any of those bullets in a bigger caliber (frontal area, bigger wound channel) it would have been even better.
You will always find someone that’s killed a tough animal with a small gun, but it remains a bad idea (thousands of elephants have been killed with 30 cal and 7mm cal in the old days, but it remains a bad idea). “Use enough gun” as they say…
I wish you had concluded with 6.5 Grendel. Since the penetration was close to the same with all of the variety of muzzle energy levels, I'm curious how the Grendel would fare in relation to the Creedmoor.
Well, it has ligher bullets at lower velocities.. You might get penetration but only because it move to slow to expand properly.
Its NO replacement for creedmoor or 308, they are TWICE the gunpowder. With copper bullets (say a 100 grain) you will get full penetration on most animals if you have a 20" barrel.. But thats mostly the design of copper bullets.
@@jmkhenka spoken like someone that doesn't know much about grendel terminal ballistics. 123g hunting rounds expand reliably out of an 18 inch barrel out to 400y with most hunting loads.
And if the quantity of powder mattered that much, the 7mm mag would have more penetration. This test showed that the increased penetration from all that extra energy was minimal. So again, I'd like to see how it fares for myself, rather than assuming things based on numbers on a chart.
@@OneLocalStudent there is sufficient videos on the Grendel. It's no replacement for a larger round. I have one, would never bring it for hunting (if swedish laws allowed it, wich it doesnt. It lacks 500J of energy @100 meters) what i normalt would use a 308 for, or a 6.5x55.
@@jmkhenka Grendel is 35gr and Creedmoor is 52gr case capacity so no not even close. 70gr would be double the capacity of 6.5 Grendel.
@@jmkhenka and i just watched a gel test of a 120gr Hornady GMX at 2550fps penetrate 27” in Gel with a bigger wound channel than these because it’s a superior bullet construction.
Excellent, thought provoking video. There's a lot of discussion here in the UK about bullet construction as our government is going to make lead free ammo mandatory (something that will probably happen in Europe before long). I've been using Barnes for plains game in Africa for 10 years and they have never let me down. I am now loading them in my. 243 for small deer in the UK and have found they kill but the wound channel is narrower and the animal takes longer to die. Anecdotal evidence obviously but other guys here have reported similar issues.
Maybe try Underwood Xtreme / LeHigh Defence serie ammo = lead free
I think that was a very good test series and it shows a couple of really important points. As you noted there was a difference in energy between the projectiles yet their penetration was very similar across the board for the same bullet construction. That means the energy from the more energetic projectiles had to be deposited into the target. In game this would be a combination of the energy to deform the projectile, the hydrostatic shock of the temporary wound channel, and the permanent wound channel. If you look up the testing done by Dr Fackler where the Army selected 6.8 as an optimal balance between terminal performance and ballistics you will see something similar to your testing. The end result is bullet selection is VERY important. If you are using a very powerful cartridge you have more leeway for a poor performing bullet to still be effective.
And ALWAYS, shot placement is THE most important factor.
I love the approach to this. Great job. I have a 6.5 creedmore and just got back from Wyoming antelope hunting. For those guys, with the high wind and longer shots i had to take, it was perfect. I don't know if i would use it in an elk but on white tail and smaller, it is just right.
Interesting tests! Do more of them! Try some of the Nosler Partition, Federal AccuBond, and Remington Core-Lokt bullets in those same calibers and rifles (and borrow a fairly accurate .308 WIN-chambered rifle so you can shoot all rifles from the same distance to the gelatin). And I should mention I'm a fan of the .308 WIN and the .30-06 Springfield: They have the power and bullet options to drop many big game animals cleanly without having to walk for acres to find them. As plenty have said, shot placements are vital if one wants to harvest game humanely.
There is a reason why the old rounds of many years ago made their reputations.The 6.5x55 and 6.5x54 (160gr),7x57 (175gr),318(250),and so forth.They were all driving long,heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocity,and they penetrated better than they should have.Now we have better bullets,as you mentioned when talking about the copper bullets,but the principle is the same.That being said,there are limits to everything,and I think that is where you match caliber to game.Smaller bullets for smaller game,larger bullets for larger game.Its tried and true for many years.Yes,large game can be,and have been taken by small bullets,but be mindful of the game,and give them the respect they are due,use enough bullet to ethically take them down as quickly as possible.There is so much to be said here,that there are books written on the subject,but we just need to use common sense.
Bullet weight and shape is penetration. Velocity is trajectory and energy translated to target. Unless talking about penetrating armor, big slow bullets will penetrate more.
It may sound like a broken record, but I think between Hornady and Barnes. They got it sorted out on the bullets. It’s all about bullet design, the Hornady black Hunter and white box match or Barnes vortex LR series are awesome.
Shooting 6.5 creed and 6.5 PRC
Growing up on an African farm and hunting and culling hundreds of bushveld animal - I know what works and what doesn't work. Slower (2300 fps) heavier round point bullets placed in the right area, work best. I use a 7x57 and 9.3x63 mm on bushveld animal. Penetration is key. I found faster lighter sharp point bullets usually cause flesh wounds, deflect and increase meat damage and could only be safely used on broadside shots. They were also highly susceptible to deflection when shooting through bush.
Speed, shot placement and bullet construction I believe is what determines quick kills. Just because you have deeper penetration doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll have a quicker kill. If the speed is dropped off the bullet cannot provide the hydrostatic damage that creates quick kills with boiler room impacts, regardless of deep penetration. The 6.5CM lacks the MV to reliably produce good hydrostatic wounding imo.
Again shot placement is key. Punch an animal through the scapula(s) with any cartridge or bullet it’s in big trouble. The faster the bullet impact the faster the kill, regardless of bullet construction. As bullet speed falls off and hydrostatic wounding drops off bullet construction really starts to come into play, I’ll take a frangible bullet at lower velocities every time. A slow mono is recipe for slow killing, shot placement being the same.
Made a 358 yd kill on a big S Ga soybean buck a few weeks back his weight before field dressing was 188lbs (he was rutted down). I used a 6.5 Creedmore 143 eldx bullet in a Kimber model 84 with 24 " barrel... He ran 40 yds shot was perfect low heart /lung shot. Bullet exited the animal and I was pleased with the blood trail. I was shooting a Norma 130grn Sirroco 11 bullet all last year on deer, all were recovered and most dropped on the spot or within 50 yrds but I was not getting a good blood trail to follow..?.. So thats why I switched to the eldx bullet because its softer jacket. I Have used the Barnes in my other rifles and calibers with gret results, but my Kimber 84 does not like them , 1" as opposed to .24" groups with the Sirroco 11 and eldx... If I hunted say elk I would go with the sirocco 11 and stick to the eldx on deer and feel comfortable on all out to 400 yds (my cut off distance on game). Thanks MBG GA................
My personal opinion is that bullet construction is significantly more important than caliber. A well made game bullet; an accubond, mono/tsx/gmx, swift aframe or even a partition in 264/277/284 will generally perform better than a cheap soft point or many of the ultra high BC cup and core bullets we see flooding the market these days (no names mentioned,), Velocity in the purest sense adds penetration, of course, but reverses with poor bullet construction due to over expansion that added velocity may cause. Sectional density is also a significant contributing factor to penetration , when more of the bullets weight is behind it’s point it will go deeper and help mitigate lost game or 3/4 mi adrenaline sprints. Spend your money on projectiles and scopes and take game at ethical distances and everyone goes home with a full freezer and a story. Cheers!
When the 6.5 creedmoore started getting popular , lots of my friends bought into the hype . I seen more wounded animals that year than ever before . You dont try long range hunting with a target caliber . They were trying to take down elk and deer at 600-800 yards .
The 6.5x55 Swede has been used for generations to take Moose, Brown bear and deer sized animals in Europe. It’s not the caliber it’s the bullet construction.
@@Peter-od7op Works just fine if you know the limits of your round...95% of all hunters have no business shooting more than 400 yards. 6.5 will take elk just fine out to that point. Anything farther just get a 6.5 PRC.
Regarding your Mossberg: I recently got a nice Win Mod 70 Featherweight in 7mm 08. It shot under 1 MOA out of the box ... then started stringing horizontally and then every which way. Never heated it up only shot a couple groups any given day, cleaned in between days. Checked everything. Changed scopes. No joy. Then I cleaned the barrel really well with a brass brush, lots of solvent and many many patches. It went right back to sub MOA behavior. This new gun demanded to be broken in with lots of thorough cleaning in between just a few rounds. So much for the theoreticians who poo poo careful break-in for new barrels. Might help with your Mossberg problem.
There is so much we still don’t understand about what makes deer drop instantly like that. Here in Scandinavia we hunt Roe deer with bird shot. It absolutely drops them in their tracks but does not penetrate any vitals. I’ve seen roe run 30 meters with both lungs completely demolished by a 308. I’m looking at the wood those blocks are standing on and how it shatters from the expansion by the gel. If that happens to the spine of the deer, I imagine it’s not gonna run very far.
Penetration is about (sectional density x weight)*speed. At least that's the way it was explained to me. Speed is always a multiplier after the first two values but the first two values combined matter more than speed.
A heavy, thin long bullet with good velocity is what you want for penetration.
Hunting bullets aren’t meant to just poke holes. Hydrostatic shockwaves passing through lung tissue will tear the lungs to pieces. That kills far faster than poking holes. Larger calibers impart more energy into target animals when appropriate bullet construction is used
Nice shots
Keep up the work little one
Game reaction with sufficient penetration and energy: Lung only is death by hemorrhage and hypoxia as airway fills with blood and game runs till it cant, Add heart and the run is shorter, Add central nervous spinal cord or solid vertebral hit and the game drops for lack of operational control. increasing energy expands the wound channel diameter so that the spine might be broken or neurological disruption even if the bullet does not actually touch the spine. Courtesy your friendly veterinarian who has shot all manner of game both well and poorly and examined the bullet paths using .22 to .470. Admittedly not everything can be explained. Example a .223 spine shot deer was alive but paralyzed and required a coup de grace.
Foot pound energy and penetration is all you hear but you never hear about hydrostatic shock commonly known as remote wounding. Remote wounding is when a bullet at high velocity hits a liquid mass of soft tissue instantly destroys it like a bomb the shock wave travels up the spinal column destroying the nerves to the body including traveling up the jugular vein blowing out the brain. When you factor in hydrostatic shock you’ll find game that ran off the amount of hydrostatic shock generated wasn’t sufficient enough to disrupt and severe the nerves in the spinal column or the brain. I’ve dropped a many deer with a 22-250 with a 55 grain Nosler Solid Base and Hornady SP/WC at 3850ish fps dropping them just as good as a 300 WM. Titan bullets are designed with a frangible outer shell to create hydrostatic shock upon impact and a penetrator core for super deep penetration ideal for dangerous game like water buffalo 🐃.
Bullet design is everything!
These bullets are designed to perform to the velocity they are being pushed at. That is why they are so similar. They are designed to dump all energy into the target. If you want max penetration shoot a solid.
Enjoyed all of your videos, but we might be comparing apples to oranges, Comparing different calibers of the same grain weight doesn't necessarily give good data when it comes to shooting tissue/gel. Comparing rounds of the same or very close sectional density will give the best results and conclusions. With that said, you using the PRC for that Wildebeest in my opinion was the best choice. As for the Test, the PRC with its high sectional density, velocity and energy rightfully won. Again, Enjoy all your Vids, and I love that your son got to take part in the adventure!!!
That 7 hit with way more energy but it's also the light side of 7mm ammo
I think the PRC is an elk gun. I would take one out to 400 yards in all seriousness. I've seen elk taken at 600 with a creedmoor with a pass through. Therefore I think 400 with the PRC is completely reasonable. I'm going hunting in a few months for the first time with my new PRC and I'll take deer out to 500 assuming the howa (haven't shot it yet) can group 1 moa or better. I know some people probably including you think I'm a bit crazy for that, but I've had a 6.5 cm out to 800 yards before with 4 successful moa shots. The gun and scope total? 1k. I've proven to myself I can shoot far now I just need to reel it back some and make sure the bullet has enough speed. For those thinking 500 is far and easy to miss a deers lungs, it is far. But in my opinion, hard to miss. At 500 yards I have 5 inches of movement. But it's really only 2.5 inches in either direction which is still plenty of wiggle room. No, I won't take the shot with high wind. Nothing over a few mph.
Americans love it when animals drop the first shot.... Here is something to remember.
When shooting larger game (gemsbuck, kudu) on the shoulder/heart region with a caliber like .308 the shock will make it fall. But most of the time they get up and run if the shot didnt damage the heart enough. Remember, hitting bone and muscle makes an animal drop, they dont always drop when you hit vitals. Keep in mind that hitting the spine/head is another thing - that'll drop and stay dropped 99% of the time.
For me, the perfect shot on big game when using a smaller caliber is just behind the leg. Hit vital organs, bullet goes through animal. It will hunch its back and run 100 yards and die.
The hit and drop is just damage to meat and bones in my opinion.
I'm a fan of 6.5. I shoot the 6.5x55 with handloads. I love pushing a 140 accubond along at about 2,900 fps. It penetrates very well. It's extremely accurate. Shot a pronghorn at about 400 yards. Complete pass through. Goat dropped after a few steps.
The 6.5 CM is at it's limit for hydrostatic shock wound cavity effectiveness at 250 yards for the game on video. Speed and mass kills, take away one and you have an injury, take the recoil or go home.
I have both a 6.5 PRC made by Altera Arms and a Remington 700 30-06 that I have replaced everything on except the action. Both are great. I am using the 30-06 more now since you can't find 6.5 PRC ammo for less than $4 around. I would trust both on any large north American Game animal.
I would like to see this test at longer ranges or simulated with shorter barrels. I think the penetration would be even better since the bullets wouldnt expand as much. I've read somewhere that penetration doesnt increase much or actually decreases at velocities over 1300 to 1500 fps. You would just see much higher energy transfer and expansion as velocity goes up. But i believe that study was done with 45-70 solid loadings comparing original black powder velocities to modern 45-70 velocities. Not sure how it would compare to expanding bullets.
I did not read all 960 other comments so hopefully I am not repeating someone else’s comment
But you mentioned you thought penetration was the issue on your wildebeest, you also said it was a perfect shot.
I was curious what the bullet path looked like when you field dressed it that lead you to believe penetration was the issue?
Did it hit bone and stop? Did it not get into the vitals at all?
Huge fan of your channel! Keep the good content coming
I just came across your channel and thought I recognized some of the areas, turns out you are in Southern Utah! Cool!
Ryan from Vortex nation, pointed this out as well. Once I thought about it .. the deer I ve killed that instantly dropped, had an exit wound....
Distance and catridge for sure matter..
The "situation" the most I think. Not the equipment. If the situation is close and a lead bullet will go thru n thru... all good. But its a fact!! Monolithic bullets blow all the way through better at long diatance.
Great video! I’d love to see the penetration differences in those same calibers with the Barnes triple shock bullets - ttsx or whatever. Thank you!
Have been using Barns bullets for a number of years and have had great luck with them. Many more shot and drop hits. Always a very good blood trail if the animal does run off. It is never very far. Longest distance I have had was about 50 yards. That was my fault did not hit were I wanted to.
After watching video I think it's obvious bullet selection is very important especially with tougher animals and longer shots. Looks like bullet failure was the biggest problem on the blue wildebeest.
Wow. That's interesting. I thought the difference would be way bigger with 7mm advantage as well as .308 win. I own rifle with 6,5 Creedmoor and I seriously reckon this caliber is just great when it comes to effective distance and the size itself is just great synthesis of something bigger than .223 Rem/5,56 NATO and faster and further reaching than .308 at the same time.
I have shot several large muleys with Hornady 143 eldx up to 200 yds in 6.5 c ,complete pass on double lung and massive exit wound quick kill.
Wildabeast are very tough and often require a couple shots no matter what caliber. Ask anyone that's ever hunted them for a period of time. Your lucky that's all he ran, rather impressive if you ask me coming from the 6.5 creedmoor
Love your videos! Always super informative.
Very cool test! Interesting outcome thanks for doing the work. I'm currently in the market for a new rifle for an Idaho elk and mule deer hunt. I'm stuck between the 7mm rem mag and the 6.5 prc.
Agreed, penetration isn’t the culprit with a shot into the heart and lungs. Plenty of factors involved in addition to the species hunted. In my limited experience mule deer and elk if shot in the heart lungs have all dropped within 80 yards and didn’t need a follow up shot. I’ve shot 8 antelope with a rifle in the heart lungs from 100 - 400 yards and 6 have dropped in their tracks, the other dropped in their tracks but popped up to run 20-30 feet before expiring. The longest to expire was a moose bull shot with a bow, it suffered massive blood loss moved 100’ to thick woods and took about 10 minutes before falling over dead before another shot could be attempted.
It'd be interesting to see which cartridge held that same energy at certain distances, i.e. would the 7mm rem mag penetrate much further than the others at say 200 yds, 300 yds, 400 yds, etc. . . . perhaps that's where the true difference comes in as we know how fast that 7mm rem mag is moving in contrast to some other rounds. Nice video.
It's interesting that you could make the exact opposite conclusion as well. You could say, my .308 will be ok for larger game providing I am using a mono metal bullet and have excellent shot placement. This type of conversation has been happening to some extent in the bear hunting and defense crowd.
Pretty soon the ultimate bear defense rifle will be a 6.5 CM or .308 in a short reliable AR-10 platform pushing mono metal bullets. Maybe the military is onto something after all?
Penetration has alot to do with bullet speed as well...btw my brother shot a blue wildebeest with a 180gr 300 winmag...good shoulder shot...ran around for 24hrs before we finally caught up with it the next day...took 7 more additional 300wm rds before finally expiring...they are unbelievably tough animals...been told by several guides that they are the toughest of any African game
I rarely see any videos that address cartridges over 308 caliber. If they do, they almost always jump to the 45-70. The medium bores get skipped every time. Let’s see what the 338 Federal, 338 Win Mag, 358 Win and 35 whelen will do compared to those small bore cartridges. They were designed for game from deer up to moose. Use the right tool for the job
Can't remember the episode but bullet type and design are mentioned by Ryan at vortex optics Nation. His preference for penetration is mentioned
What many do not understand is that the decisive factor for the bullet effect in the target is only the kinetic energy converted into tissue destruction and where this destruction takes place.
The first question that always arises is: Does a caliber have sufficient energy reserves to kill an animal safely?
The second question: are there suitable bullets for the caliber, given the expected bullet velocities and game strengths, that can carry the energy conversion to depth?
Penetration considered alone says little to nothing about caliber or bullet effectiveness ...
Excuse my poor English ...
Keep 6.5mm to deer sized game. Its not just penetration but wound circumference and retained expansion. I love the 6.5 . I use it all the time in deer. I use either Nosler Accubonds or Partition Points. My shooting is under 450m. Eld -x and sst are good bullets but do have limitations. 7mm calibre best min imum for big game. And choose a bullet that expands well at all velocities. I would never use a Eldx or Sst on big game. They too inconsistent . Handload for best all round performance. Try other options than often using Hornady. I know you like long range sniping but one tiny mistake will get amplified heaps over ranges 600m plus. Have some fun and stalk closer.
I think you are overlooking the amount of energy dumped into the animal by the 7mm mag vs the 6.5 etc. The shock to the nervous system of all that energy dump is devastating.
It's important to remember that all these bullets were specifically designed to expand and dump there energy in a certain distance. Guess roughly 20-22 inches of ballistic gel lol. So the real wonder is that they designed 4 calibers of the same bullet targeting the same or similar terminal performance and they pretty much nailed it. What you should have been testing is energy transfer wich probably would have been a slam for the 7mm
You sure are in love with the 6.5
If hunting performance was just about 10 attrition we would all use solids. Hunting performance is more about energy dump into the animal. That's why bigger bullets carrying more energy kill more effectively.
I started taking big game in 1964. I agree with your conclusion about deer and down. Look at the hurt on your son's face with that game did not go down. That hurt his maturing soul.
For hunting, the bullet ought to leave a small hole at the entrance, a huge wound channel, and a big hole when it leaves. The game needs to leak as fast as possible.
BTW, no one ever wonders about their cartridge with 300WM, 300SWM, 7mmRemMag, 30-06, etc. Game, most any game drops like a stone.
I can understand those that are shooting matches, 100-200 rounds a day, caring about recoil. But shooting less than a box of ammo a season hunting, stop being recoil afraid. Shoot something potent.
My friend... I love your channel... always great content👍🏻
But if you hit a bwb on the money with that 6.5 PRC... he will not go that far... did you check afterwards what happened on that first shot?
Totally fascinating... wow!! Great test!
I had boxes of 178 ELD-X that shot 3/4” and with same lot of powder, same lot of brass, same box of primers loaded the same day the second box shot 4” maybe!!! No more ELD-X for me!
Nice test
Try a 156 Norma Oryx or Alaska in 6.5
I basically don't run lead bullets anymore simply because I don't get the desired performance out of them that I do with my copper bullets And I realized that it may just be the way that I shoot but everything I've hit with my 127LRX bullets from Barnes I've only ever need one
This was great! More please!
The big problem is the Ice-pick effect of most 6.5 projectiles. Call me a fudd but guys shooting rebranded target bullets at game animals is probably responsible for more wounded animals than "power" or "shot placement"
With 6.5 a hog hunter used a round where the bullet looked like a long slug. His remarks after his hits. Deadly accurate damage. More than he needed shooting wild hogs. Yes clear across a field.
Luv these gell tests, very interesting, I'm sure that the faster cals would have had bigger wound channels tho .......I'm a fan of the bonded ammo like speer hot-cor, would luv to see more gell tests 👍🇦🇺 .....thanks for your vids
There have been a lot of people showing the rear action mount bolt in the Patriot, being a huge accuracy problem.
I’ve killed deer with everything from 22 call up to 7mm and 300’s we have also killed huge black bear and deer with 6.5cr.
My son shot a 350+ lb black bear in the heart that ran 150 yard. The next weekend my buddy shot a 550lb black bear that measured 7’2” in the heat with the same 6.5 and it only went 50 yards!
I’m convinced that shot placement is the #1 factor in hunting and some animals will just run a little further that others.
Don't feel bad, a wildebeest is really hard to kill. Actual headshot is best.
There have been a large amount of elk taken here in Oregon with the 6.5 Creedmore.