The death of The North Face and why I won't wear it.
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
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“I don’t wear logos”.
Wearing a Buff logo in the video.
And Patagonia as well
If I could get it without a logo I would.
Back in the ‘70s I went on a bicycle trip with some friends after we graduated college. We outfitted at the great EMS store in Boston, bought a North Face Sierra tent for the trip. I was amazed with that tent - light weight nylon, tub floor, bug netting that worked. I always looked for NF gear after that.
They’re not the only company that has abandoned their roots: look at Carhartt and Levi Strauss.
I had a TNF tent in the 90’s and it was great…. And I would still buy a 4 season tent from them…. But that’s it.
They started in a little building in West Berkeley, why are you surprised? They have always been this way.
No logos? Do I see a Buff neckerchief???? Buff logo????
If I could get one without I would use it. But what I was saying is big logos across my chest, I don’t do. Similar to the car, I don’t begrudge a moderately sized and placed logo on your product. That is very different than being a walking billboard.
You have a big Patagonia logo on your chest 😂
My late 1970's VE24 tent worked well on climbing trips, especially on winter outings in the Cascades and Canadian Rockies. Today, I agree with you, and will not buy NF' products.
Thanks for watching, Brother. I hope you are still using that tent. It's a killer.
Brooks Range, double down, used in Alaska Pipeline construction. First free standing mountain tent the Eureka Draw Tight Tent. Windy Pass original NF line of imported clothing.
I remember windy pass…. I don’t remember the Draw tight tent, but I do remember that Eureka made amazing mountaineering tents.
Still have my draw tite tent, and an Oval Intention. I agree the VE24 was one of the best all around tents. We were an early NF dealer in AK, in the 70's and onword. @@AdventureOtaku
Back in the 60's my mom would cut the logo patch off the back pocket of our jeans, explaining that we "should not be walking billboards", despite the extra effort for her and no one else I knew did this. That made sense to me, I kept up this habit and sentiment for the rest of my life. But brand logos became fashion, and fake counterfeit brands are a global industry. Just like we sell our privacy cheap, our personal values have become cheap.
I applaud your mom. When I worked for REI we trained staff to Identify counterfeit TNF logos.
I could not agree more. I worked at EMS in the 90's and bought a couple of NF things including a Goretex shelled down filled sleeping bag and yes the original Mountain Jacket, both of which I still own. But now if I walk into a NF store I think to myself if I replaced the NF logo with the Adidas logo I couldn't tell the difference between either the store or the product they sell. They remind me of Lululemon, its all about the colors and "prestige" of wearing a pretty mediocre product.
Exactly right.
This is so interesting! I did not know a lot about NorthFace.
Glad you enjoyed it. Now go watch 180 degrees south. Amazing movie
Thanks for your rant on TNF. I thought the branding was becoming too 'ubiquitous.' I love my Serratus and Mountain Equipment COOP (NOT MEC) outerwear and kit, that I have kept over several decades and they are as robust as ever. Do you have thoughts on the demise of our dearly beloved brands?
We talked about MEC in the comments of the video I did about REI and small brands. I was an MEC member, and I did a video about them and REI and I decided not to publish it….
And since we’re on the clothing topic I’d like your opinion on a solid dry suit! Kayaking of course but not to say I won’t use it paddling my Tomahawk Air-C while I’m fishing (of course). Wet suit I seldom wear it.
I think the IR and palm suits are great but they call it cult Kokatat for a reason. NRS dry suits aren’t bad.
I feel the same way about high fashion clothing and accessories. I can't imagine paying thousands of dollars for a bag with logos all over it.
agreed
I bought a North Face sleeping bag more years ago than I can remember. It has held up but in today's world, it is too heavy and too bulky for either backpacking or kayaking. Some of my explorer friends recently did the Northwest Passage by kayak and used their brand of various gear and clothing. One of them was very complementary about North Face but others said the brand left a lot to be desired. For adventuring in harsh climates on extended trips, I wonder what are the brands that have innovated enough to qualify as true expedition gear? Talking about clothing mostly.
I followed that Northwest passage trip, didn’t realize you knew that group. Im planning a video about “expedition worthy” gear and I think I will work this in. The clothing is a good one though because it is actually harder! I’ll have to think on it. I mean, I use Patagonia - even though my Patagonia puffy isn’t holding up as well as some others - Kokatat for dry suit, mustang survival makes solid clothes, for jackets its mustang again, arc, Marmot…. I’ll think more.
I am very close friends with the leader and two others. If you would like to talk to them for input to your video, let me know and I can set up a call or something.@@AdventureOtaku
Thanks brother.
I grew up a country boy that was obsessed with John Deere. I now hate them because of the values i now have. Aside from them being a public company and involved with horrible farming practices, the fact the make there tractors un able to be wrenched on is evil as well.
I didn’t know that about JD….
i worked as a retail manager of a north face store for several years. Corporate pulled all of are summit series products and camping goods and filled it with urban clothing, very few of our customers were outdoor people. it was all fashion.
Can I ask where it was?
western new york
Not necessarily a fashion hot bed….
Just look at the people who wear it… they love telling everyone they are part of a special club that’s just wannabes
excluding the wannabes aspect, isn't that true of everyone who puts a Salt Life Sticker, or Yeti sticker on the back of their car? Or wears a nike or adidas shirt with a big logo? Isn't it just saying I am a part of this special club? true or not?
I must confess that I spent stupid money on Kühl pants & FjallRaven pants as well with little research. I must say I’m a sucker for high quality clothing. They checked all the boxes like: comfort/quality/durability/function/look, etc etc. The service after sale with Fjällräven is pretty amazing like waxing, repairs, etc.
I think kuhl and fjallraven are both great products. Totally worth it
@@AdventureOtaku thanks for the replies. I’ve always watched what you are posting. I’m very much on the same page with most of your technical stuff.
Thanks for watching!
I have a wide brim Simms fishing floating boonie hat, love it. Followed a PCT hiker who wore a North Face Boonie and it seemed to hold up on the hike so I bought one. I know it doesn't rain much on the PCT, but they hiker obviously never washed it either. The Simms boonie hat holds it's shape no matter how many times it's been washed. The North Face flops down over my eye's now and was a waste of money.
I know the Simms hat! Super hat!
I couldn't agree more. Right now in my closet I have five insulated jackets of different weights and eight different shell jackets. Couldn't even tell you off the top of my head how many base layers I have between lightweight midweight and heavyweight tops and bottoms. None of them are The North Face. Reason is simple-I don't buy a new jacket, top or pants for a fashion statement my purchases are driven by purpose and function.
I don’t have anything insulated except a single puffy. And I usually only have one shell jacket at a time. But I generally end up replacing them every few years… they get a lot of use.
I feel similarly about Patagonia. Haven’t bought either brand in 10 years.
Ive seen a video about tnf before about their progression to mainstream fashion, same with arc'teryx.
Honestly patagonia to me is just another brand worn by rich people around here. While I'm sure its great technical gear its also overpriced and overkill for most peoples use cases.
When i go on day hikes nearby i see lots of people wearing these super expensive jackets and whatnot for q sinple day hike in like maybe -5c temps. Meanwhile im using some thrift store Merino wool sweaters because they work really well for outdoor activities and are like 10$.
A lot of the technical gear is a huge ripoff. Only things i bother getting from known brands are socks by darn tough because theyve beat every other sock ive owned and arenlide time warrantied and paddling gear like a drysuit/paddling jacket.
My daily shirt is Patagonia and I love it (but I also buy it at a discount) UPF 50, wicks really well (I can’t wear merino, it makes me itch) and has an amazing hand feel. I don’t use their outerwear, or really anything else they make.
I don't know that I agree with the innovation requirement. Some things just work, and don't really need updating.
One of the downsides of constant updates is that a jacket like that TNF shell that accepts jacket liners is no longer around. Or the model of shoe you found that worked great got updated to the point that it no longer works great.
Of course innovation can be good, but sometimes it's at the expense of prior functionality (and usually durability).
I still own and use my TNF mountain parka that I've had for decades. The Nuptse and Denali jackets of that era remain equally as good.
That being said, I haven't bought any new TNF in decades. The durability and quality has gone downhill, plus they're now made more for a "stylish fit" than a functional fit.
One of the purported innovations I particularly don't like is the move to weatherproof zippers and away from storm flaps. And old YKK can last decades, while the new ones delaminate by the third season.
As far as logos go, I don't seek them, but I don't go out of my way to avoid them. Most of the places I use my outdoor gear for its intended purpose, not many people will see a logo.
Innovation for innovations sake, I agree, isn’t necessary. But particularly in the outdoors, products should evolve based on peoples uses and experiences with the gear. And this isn’t happening at TNF
I feel similarly about constant change to either keep up with trends or fashions. I’m not sure most of it counts as innovation.
Finding anything logo free these days is a herculean task. You'd probably be interested in one of William Gibsons' characters called Cayce Pollard, she was allergic to brands. I personally hate being a walking advert and attempt to avoid it whenever possible.
You are right, and people are giving me a hard time for the barely there buff logo I am wearing in the video. Ive read some Gibson, but I will have to seek out that character.
My NF RedPoint jacket has been amazing for over 20 years. The zipper is finally failing and I can’t find a comparable.
Take it to a tailor, and see if they can replace the zipper. In general YKK zippers are replaceable.
I believe in purchasing the best gear for a given outdoor application.
At this point, the only NF piece of gear that I own and would purchase again is one particular model of baseball cap.
It fits me well, and it wears well.
That's all.
That piece of kit, as well as all other NF clothing, is outdoor "fashion" wear. Nothing more.
And honestly, they probably don’t actually make the baseball cap.
I dont mind small names/logos on gear because I dont mind a creator/manufacture signing their work but I dont buy from any company just because their brand is on the item. One counter to TNF not having any innovation in the last 20 years I raise Futurelight as a counter. I am very happy with the Futurelight shell i have. And I would really love a Storm Cag made of the stuff.
Im okay with small logos as well - mostly becuase you cant avoid them, I would if I could - but many in the comments are giving me a hard time for the buff logo (which if it had been turned 3 inches no one would have seen) around my neck, and that I am wearing a Patagonia fleece. I too don’t pick products based on the brand. The Futurelight is a good counter, agreed. I have read about it, but haven’t had a chance to try it out. Thanks for mentioning it.
I was not aware of The North Face’s history as an actual outdoor innovator. I remember a trip I took in the mid 2000’s where the most visible brand of clothing I noticed was North Face-in New York City, with temps in the 50’s.
Yeah amazing history. They blew it.
I'd be surprised if the average TNF customer today even has a clue about the origin of their name itself. (A climber may have challenges on that side of a glaciated massif even though hikers or even cars can ascend the sunny southern slopes.)
This is ridiculous.
Thanks for watching.
I used to swear by TNF until they tried to screw me on there "not so lifetime" warranty. The ordeal took months to resolve. I generally avoid them ever since. The quality has definitely gone down the toilet unless you like overpriced t shirts.
I have a similar story…. Without even knowing your details, I bet they are similar.
I wear a nf mock hat. Its logo says „de ossi fresse“ which translates to „the east face“ the only logo i like wearing 😂
That’s awesome! There should be more anti-logo wear like that.
Capitalism: They are going to put their logo on the item they sell.
Small logo-that is fine, says they stand behind the brand. Large logo-Gauche
Agreed.
It is so nice of you to thank TNF employees for watching.
Thanks for watching!
@@AdventureOtaku Oh I am a retired teacher, but you are welcome.
Still own a VE-25, cat's meow, and had a mtn jacket -- all back in 1989 a few years after I started climbing and mountaneering very seriously. And like you haven't bought a TNF item since. It seems like everyone in gradschool wore a TNF mtn jacket, it became the yuppie ivy league school uniform for semi-outdoorsy posers. You did miss the thermoball jackets -- I have thought of picking one up to throw in my dry bag for hanging out in camp on sea kayak trips. The real problem with TNF is that so many other companies make better "serious" technical gear and so many other companies make cheaper "casual" techinical gear -- and TNFs offerings mostly fall under the "casual" heading now.
I tried to Pro-deal a VE-25 twice and they rejected it both times (there is no advantage to them prodealing a tent like that.) so I am a little jealous. I didn’t mention the thermo ball, or the Apex bionic which I felt went down the road paved by the Denali….
Watching your video now. What happen to them was in the late 80's their clothing and lower end gear became crap. By all rights the logo/ company should have went OB 20 years ago. Also the company wouldn't sell fleece jackets to a drilling supply company a few years back. What a hypocritical moment since a majority of their products are still oil based.
I didn’t know that bit about the drilling company… interesting. Thanks, Ill read up on it.
There’s a way worse reason not to buy from them.
Okay. Thanks for watching.
This is the second video I have seen in less that 24hr about North Face. I own a couple of items. I really nice snug fleece and a rain shell jacket. The other video was on about their new 20% discount that is linked to some racism course you can do online. Which will be driven by ESG rating for any Public Limited company. Most of the Comments were to the video was along the lines of another woke company that I will be boycotting. This is another side to once small companies being bought out by larger companies that then ruin what the company once was and what it stood for.
They really did have an impressive history of innovation. Now as you rightly say they are a High Street Fashion brand as here in the UK you see their logo on a lot of people that would never wear it for where it was originally intended for. I think they have even made jeans, which would be utterly useless in the outdoors unless you wear in the only environment where cotton based clothing is a ok to wear, were you want it's cooling properties when it is wet.
I am also with you on the advertising of other peoples companies, we have it with Supermarkets where you carry your shopping in their branded bags. it is the same with a lot of Branded shops, you walk out with a bag with their logo on and here in the UK we have to pay for some of those bags to advertise their stuff. I remove any dealer stickers from my Cars as soon as I can. I don't mind logos if they are not to large as you can't really get away from it with a lot of items, but would never wear anything that had a large logo upon it.
There is nothing wrong with paying out for good quality gear if it is going to give you years of use. Sadly I am still trying to find a Pair of walking boots that last as long as my first pair which I still have, that I bought in 1996. They gave up being waterproof as a hole appeared on the crease line about 5 years ago. my current pair are 2 1/2 years in and will need replacing within a year or two.
For boots, check out Asolo…. The pair I have are probably ten years old. They are what I wore leading classes for REI and sections of the AT…. I hope they are still made that well, but haven’t checked them out in a while. I specifically use the Asolo fugitive.
@@AdventureOtaku I have seen their boots and trail shoes in some of our better Outdoor shops. I will defiantly have a look. as I could do with replacing my current trail shoes. As I am quite hard on shoes it would seem with the number of them that I have gone through it the last 8 years, since getting my mobility back.
Just saw a very favorable 2 year review of the Alpina Tundra by the Finnish company Varusteleka. Seems to be a good product for a reasonable price -- $130. Looks like black is the one available colour, and though the mfr does produce gear for the Finnish military, the only thing I could detect about the styling other than colour that might suggest that purpose was a generous toe box -- of which I'm a big fan! Too bad my other boots aren't yet done in yet!
It’s getting more difficult to actually find quality gear that really works as intended, and lasts if you take care of it. Producing good quality and value for the consumer, is getting rare, or at least takes more effort to find. Some gear that’s 10 years old is way better quality than what companies make now. Its the same message, “Looks and appearance are more important than practicality and common sense”, and its all part of the “profits over people” mentality. I don’t have the wealth of experience in outdoor gear that others like you have, but I have definitely been stuck with some real junk that turned out to be a big waste of money. I bought high-top TNF waterproof hikers several years ago, they were a clearance item so I couldn’t get a warranty claim, but the sole and upper separated after getting wet the very first time. Only one of thousands of examples, buying a big name can mean nothing these days.
@@robertphillips93 They are not too badly priced from a website that sells them from Finland that came up from a quick search. Even with import duty that are a lot cheaper that my current pair of Mammut boots, that I have just looked at and will need replacing much sooner than I thought as they are splitting on the edge of the toe extra material that they added to cover the toes.
Fashionable things are meant to go out of fashion. Thus the products need not stand the test of time.
And they didn’t used to be fashion…. But now they are.
Also not a fan of logos, since forever. But it does frequently happen that an intersection of quality, availability, and price doesn't come sans advertising. Last TNF I bought was a very decent wind/rain shell at an affordable sale price and with a less-than-loud logo -- but with more of a cross-over design than strict outdoor user in mind. BTW, I do remember the days when North Face and Sierra Designs were bringing fresh ideas and good value to hikers and campers -- it was a time whensuch companies were hotbeds of enthusiastic innovation.
Today I learn that TNF gear can be purchased at a 20% discount to customers who complete a (presumably online) educational course in racial inclusion. Seems like they have morphed into a hotbed of ideas of another sort. That does make it clear to me that, logo or not, nothing innovative or useful will be forthcoming from this company.
You are the second person to mention the discount for education thing, I will have to look into that, I didn’t find it while I was doing my research.
You are talking about Gorpcore style. I'm shuddering now cause I never could stand the word Gorp!!
I actually didn’t know the term Gorpcore until I was researching this. But that is exactly what it is. I contemplated talking about it and eventually decided against it.
I see “Buff” which is a logo. . . js
Ive said in other comments, I don’t begrudge a company for putting a logo on a product. But I think there is a difference between a small logo like the buff logo you mention or the literally 1/4 inch by 2.5 inch Patagonia logo on my fleece. And a massive TNF logo across my chest or on the end of my duffel bag. OF course that’s my opinion, and you are free to disagree with me.
I prefer to wear a couple clicks away from what everyone wears. No LLBean, NF, Patag, Carhartt, etc. Have settled on Mountain Hardwear, Cotopaxi, Fjallraven and Gill for outerwear.
I know all the brands you mentioned as the ones you go to, but haven’t used any of them except Mountain Hardwear. Unfortunately their story is very similar to TNF. Lots of early innovation, bought by Columbia in 2003, by 2011 all the innovation stopped. But man I loved windstopper fleece, and the exposure II parka… great products.
I will join the party. You say no logo on chest. You say you classify your pfd as clothing. Take a look at whats in plain sight next time you put it on. ASTRAL
And as I have said many times in the comments, and even said in the video. I don’t begrudge a company putting a logo on their gear, like astral (a company I respect, is good to their employees and good to the planet) but when I am talking about logos I mean I am not wearing a massive logo across my chest. The shirt I am wearing is available with a huge Patagonia logo, which I wont wear - again, even though I respect the actions of that company. I really feel like that is clear and an obvious difference and yet I am regularly having to explain it. C’mon.
I am no fan of logo merchandise either. Whilst it is true that some manufacturers are better than others, the label does not guarantee anything these days.
Agreed.
Why get in the face of viewers with negativity about choice of brand? Live and let live. I will take the opinion of the video maker with a grain of salt. I have piles of quality equipment which I have collected and used well throughout my years of backcountry skiing, hiking, kayaking, marathon running and travel. I use what works or works for my budget. I have some North Face equipment, too. ... some people like logos--it is part of their identity. Outdoor gear can be stylish. What's the problem?
I don’t think I was negative, I was expressing my views based on my experiences. TNF isn’t the company it was, or the company it pretends to be. My opinion. Not negative. I didn’t say you couldn’t wear TNF I explained why I don’t. Thanks for watching
It all comes down to value. There’s a general trend of the value you get from a brand that becomes mainstream and popular. That trend is the value goes DOWN. Sometimes, brands delineate their higher quality stuff, so you know what you are getting if a decent retailer will explain it to you.
There’s no way to stop people from appropriating the cool stuff, or from selling out to monetize their work. We all have to be diligent consumers. There’s no free lunch.
I agree. Thanks for watching.
NF zippers are crappy
I haven’t looked in a while, but are they not YKK?
I bought you a coffee. As far as values, people might mistake us for twins, which I am proud to say. One of these days we are going to have to have a face to face. Then I can say that I have seen the mountain.
Thanks brother. I am drinking it right now.
what an ego
Thanks for watching!
My god- what a horrible attitude. You act like one of those (yes, those people) of these elites “ NOT IN MY BACKYARD “ folks that will hammer success and berate ordinary people who find quality in what they purchase. Thank goodness I don’t have a father-in-law who thinks that no Man is good enough for your little princess.
I didn’t berate anyone, I never said you cant wear it, I said I don’t wear it.