Well, since I only have a budget road bike buying any of those above would make me significantly faster. :D But I am okay with it, cycling is not the only thing I would like to spend money on. I will possibly buy racing wheels for circa 800 Euros and one TT bar but nothing more.
I would say, for around 1.5K € you get a really nice road bike with really good components. I think an amateur like me would not get any faster with any kind of 5k bike... perhaps you would get an upside in comfort. Any thoughts to this thesis? 😉
And also to be fair, I don't think the Planet X is a TT bike, it's a road bike with aerobars and disc to begin with. Edit: it was one, but the geometry is more like an aero road bike these days. Really hard to compare it with a modern TT bike, a few hundred bucks more and he would have gotten something with a more modern TT design which is probably faster. But the aeroad is very similar to a TT bike in general, so I wouldn't expect much gains even with a recent TT bike.
I forgot to say, the Video is shot on this 360 camera: www.insta360.com/sal/one_r?insrc=INR47RE Also: (*small mistake in extrapolated data: section A should've read 39.2km/h)
On the TT you seem to have a camera hanging out front catching the wind, while on the Canyon I do not see it. Aerodynamics of a bluff body are pretty terrible, so I wonder if that could have played a role as well?
Planet-x stealth was used by Cadel Evans back in 2007, taking 2nd place in the Albi time trial (behind Vinokourov) and later in the Angouleme time trial (another second behind Leipheimer). So this model is already 13 years old. A 'fair' comparison would be to take exactly the same front wheel so you have a realistic comparison. One last remark: you get pretty much in the same position on your road bike in TT mode as on the TT bike, but most road bikes have too much stack, and a slack seat tube angle (to much saddle setback). The Aeroad seems to have a pretty low stack and you can push the saddle all the way to the front and have the saddle position fairly the same as with the Planet-X, but you can't do that with many other bikes. Still, a nice comparison!
The Aeroad is crazy low at the front. Its far and away Canyons lowest/lomgest geometry in any size. I would love to ride one, but I think nothing looks worse than a high end race bike with a tower of spacers under the stem. Not to mention it is also dangerous
A couple of observations that account for your findings I know you think you position is similar on both bikes, but they are actually not. Your back on the road bike is nice and flat which is ideal as it delays separation of the air meaning less turbulent drag. On the TT bike your back is rather rounded meaning you have air separation earlier and so have a lot higher drag. Secondly, the helmet selection for the TT bike is very poor. Ideally, you want a helmet that fills in the area between your head and your upper back and this helmet doesn't do that at all. Due to your different position on the road bike, the helmet does a better job of filling in the void, bu its still less than ideal. Far and away the biggest advantage you get from riding a TT bike is not the difference in drag between a TT bike and a road bike (although it is there), its the position it allows you to ride on the TT bike that optimises the drag of your body. Your position would need a far bit more tweaking before it would be close to what you could achieve. Your position on a TT bike needs to be optimised as the closed hip angle (even with a steep seat tube angle) means most people generate less power on a TT bike vs on their road bike but if your position is optimised, the drop in power is more than made up for with the reduction in aerodynamic drag.
This! Also, this budget TT happens to have external cable routing. While the difference of that may be marginal it's really not a fair comparison. Internally routed bikes were obviously around well before 2010 so a fair comparison should be to a TT bike that also has internal routing.
Agreed guys... also the geometry of the Planet-X stealth has a less steep seat-tube angle than most TT bikes... Do it again with a more vertical seat tube geometry 🤪
@@michaelbanks3571I agree, would have been a better comparison with a Planet X - Exocet 2 or 3 which have an aggressive position, internal cable routing and can still be found around the same price mark
I found this video very useful thanks. I have a Scottfoil with aero bars and was convinced I would be better off using this for hilly long course tri as it’s super aero, over spending on another bike I would rarely ride. This has put my mind at rest. Thanks for a very well put together test with some really interesting results.
Interesting comparison. I‘m sure a high end TT would be way faster than the aeroad. I did 44 km/h in training on my Trek Speedconcept for over 60min loop and just had to push around 310 watts. I‘m also not the smallest guy. And this can be done even faster in a better position.
Very interesting video, when I first got a “cheap “ TT bike my CDA according to Golden Cheetah was worse than my road bike with clip on TT bars, as in the video. But over time I have improved my position on the TT bike (to a position not achievable on the road bike) to reduce my TT CDA to much lower than the road bike.
Dam it's a real shame you didn't do the road bike test with just the standard drop bars. That would have been a complete test and would have given us valuable insight.
The "Virtual Data" section should only be compared qualitatively with the measurements due to the highly non-linear nature of turbolences. You must not simply add the differences. Further, I suspect these results to suffer from considerable scatter, especially under such windy conditions. Anyhow, I think the qualitative differences between the bikes are quite striking. I'm surprised that the Aeroad is faster despite the not-so-aero handle bars. Apparently the rest of the bike design compensates for it. Then, the never ending wind tunnel ad campaigns of the bike companies would at least be justified. Great video, Jasper!
Fascinating video and really well put together! It would be interesting to see how much the theoretical value at 13.52 would change when you consider that aerodynamic drag increases as a function of velocity - so the speed increase would probably be slightly less than you calculated. And then there is tyre pressure, rim width and weight. (Part 2 for the video?!) So many variables but what you experimented was really interesting and much more than I could try. Kudos!
In these days the differences between TT bikes and aero road bikes are minor than before, it’s more about the wheels and bars for postion and the outfit I think. Great video !
That's good to know as TT bikes are so expensive! I just did my first TT where TT bars /TT bikes were allowed a few weeks ago(2 stage race). Cause I don't have a TT bike I just borrowed some clip on bars from a friend. Anyway 2 other friends had the same set up. They averaged 20W's more than me but I was a few seconds faster than them, so I think my bike and 50mm wheel combo must be relatively aerodynamic for a roadbike.
Hey ! Love your videos, I think you bring a needed fresh vibes in the UA-cam road cycling game. I had two videos suggestions : a reaction video on road cycling memes, and a kinda "GCN bike vault" video but where you rate our bikes and you suggest us what to upgrade next based on what we want to do with them... Thx again for your content
Such a great video! My TT bike is lucky it’s not a budget one and there’s no way I can get the same position on the road bike. So TT stays for now I guess until I can afford a €6K road bike to replace both 😁
Funny that Jasper know that if you want to compare to TT anything but road bike you heed to use clips on TT bars yet GCN somehow forgot about this lately. Props man I'm your fan
Think you did a good comparison of the bikes, only remark on it is you could have used the spark wheel works fron wheel in both bikes to further reduce the variables between bikes. What is missed in this video though is that the advantage of a seperate TT bike, even a cheap one, is that you can really work on optimizing the position. The guy on the bike is where 80 or 90% of total drag comes from. You set it up now decently matched between road and TT but with some additional work you could probably achieve a better position on the TT bike which is where the speed gains really come from.
I get your point. however I could not use those wheels because of the 10 speed / 11 speed difference. (the spark wheels are 11 speed so wont work with the TT bike...) yep, I think I did mention that about optimizing position. I tried to have them optimized best as I could at that moment and it could probably be further optimized for both. Would be interesting to take this to the wind tunnel!?
@@cyclingschannel false. If both tires are optimized for the the rim, then that's the best you can do. If one rim works better with a tire than the other, than one bike will be disadvantaged. Of course nothing like that was done here.
really cool test ! obviously the Aeroad is more performant than the planet-X. If i had your bike and need to race a TT, i suggest to change the handle bar for a TT one, add a disc wheel, change the saddle. I think it will cost less thant buy a entry level TT bike that you don't use very often
Interesting! But my first thoughts were „the canyon is by far the fastest“. The question is why? The wheels? The wheel bearings? Another interesting test would be the benefit of a lightweight climbing bike against for example a TT bike. I really asked myself, watching the time trial at the end of the Tour de France, if the bike change at the bottom of the climb was worth it. Also because changing bikes costs about 10 sec...
In my experience not being able to shift gears easily on a road bike with TT bars is a major negative. You need to be able to microadjust your gear ratio to maintain steady cadence/power whilst in the aero position. TT bike would get my vote for that factor. If you live in the Netherlands where you won't have to change gears often then you might get away with it ;)
@@geraldfisher6475 Ok probably the wrong choice of verb, but oh well! Basically, go try a TT with clip on bars in hilly area and/or with wind and you'll see how hard it is to put down constant power and get in and out of the aero position.
Great video. I am looking into the same situation. I'm curious if the budget tt bike is faster than the high end road bike without clip on bars. Just in the drops or on the hoods. Because I don't want to change my set up on my road bike.
I think as you pointed out a TT bike normally allows for much more aggressive position so gain even more aero advantage but here the Aeroad can achieve the same fit. I also think the mechanical loss as pointed out by many is to blame. I also suspect it may be down to the interaction between your shoulders and helmet that contribute towards the speed gain. You shoulder is clearly sticking out more with the Aeroad than the TT bike. This may help the pressure recovery after the helmet but im no aero expert, just my guess.
Suggestion: Download the raw speed and power data for each run, and over some small interval divide the speed in km/hr by the watts. This will eliminate any differences in effort or wind or passing cars, ETC. Tough to do where you are, but another aero test is to roll down a hill without pedalling. The only thing affecting your speed would be the changes in position, clothing, bike, etc.
Very precise test (for one-person laboratory), kudos for that! My 5 cents into the discussion. Mechanical resistance is of course the issue here for older TT. What I'm more interested in is what would have been the results on old TT with the modern wheels (none closed disc), from your younger road bicycle?! That would be very interesting to see. I think the results would still be in favor of road bicycle, but my guts are saying the margin would be smaller. The wheels manufacturing has changed and improved a lot, and wheels are plenty factor to matter.
Myeah i put a new high performance wheel in the front but couldn't do that in the back because of the older 10 speed on the TT. So it's only the rear wheel mechanical drag that's the difference. I think it's pretty small but it's there yeah
A note: a disc wheel, compared to your quite aerodynamic wheels on the road bike, will not make that much of a difference it made on the old TT rig. especially not at low yaw angles (riding straight in/with the wind). but still, interesting video!
Cool test Jasper!! Thanks for sharing this thorough experience. Your fanatism is infectious. About the test, if it isn't the difference in wattage or aero position (what determines the wind resistance partly) then the following aspects are maybe decisive: brand rubber tire and inner tube, pressure tire, wheel bearings, chain tension, cassette + ketting + chainring quality (Ultegra/Dura Ace, amound of hours used) or stiffness bracket? Finally, I think Canyon is doing its homework very well. Just look at MvDP ;-)
Thank you so much for this test,it was particularly helpful to me because I have both of these bikes.It would be intriguing to know the difference in times with and without clip on bars on the Canyon Aeroad,due to the aero shape of drop bars,good clip ons are scarce.
Ha, I was right when you posted the question which would be faster :) Aeroad all the way baby! I have the same bike, although in Movistar blue :) Great analysis Jasper, you did a good job of limiting the variables and trying to get accurate and informative results!
Very interesting... I’d love to see a modern TT bike with all the current aero design applications vs the road bike with the TT set up... I got a feeling you might tick off some people JV... 😆
I wonder if over a longer effort the TT bike would get closer to the road bike due to the subtle differences in position being easier to hold on the TT bike than the road bike. Interesting experiment but with the planet X always being an open mould frame, I'd like to see a comparison against something like the Felt B16
Would be interesting to see if you put the the wheels of your race bike on the TT bike. This would eliminate one big variable and is maybe the cause of the slower speed. Who knows want the condtion of the bearing are, the chain and what kind of tyers are used on the budget bike.
So, great work on the video, thank you! I am the guy who is right now looking at if I should buy a tt bike for triathlon. I have a tcr advanced road bike with aero bars now. I have looked at some used tt bikes but there are so many variables I am still confused. However I will not be buying one 10 years old if I get one. Now if you could do this with a mid range tt bike like 3-4000 it would be a very cool test.
Great stuff! Thanks! We love these comparisons. I have a Canyon ultimate with aerobars and always tempted to get a TT bike, but what is the gain....who knows? So, thanks again. Any comparison video is welcome. Like an old this Plant TT bike vs a new one, or really against an expensive modern TT, and against a cheaper roadbike as well. 😉
just looking at your position at 14:54 Its so different XD The road bike had a much more relaxed back = more flat and more aero. Your TT Position you really put your head down = more arched back and lower head but looks less smooth. From looking at the TT Position if you lengthen yourself a bit more maybe about 2-5 cm you would probably get a flatter back maybe?
Couple things to note. The difference between the disc and open wheel on your road bike would be far less due to switching from a semi deep wheel to disc on the road, whereas the TT bike had a shallow cheap looking wheel for that test. Second thing due to constantly changing conditions, tests aren't 100% accurate. You would need to run these tests many times over on each bike each set up, average the data out.. then look at the numbers (something like 10 passes on each ). I do think given you were able to get your road bike set up so close, you still may have the same results over this bike, but something such as a cockpit upgrade on that used TT would do wonders given the current set up is not very aero. The other consideration, is comfort for those doing a longer TT, are you going to be able to maintain that position on the road bike (as you mentioned the saddle being uncomfortable due to sitting so far forward on it).
Come on... the test was good enough. Are you trying to kill the guy? This is not a phd thesis. :) But I agree with you that I would like to have him comment on how comfortable he was on each of the setup.
About the shallow wheel/disc wheel and deep section wheel/disc wheel difference... you are right👍 But, (and this is just guessing) I compared with a pretty old Disc wheel. So maybe a super high end modern disc wheel would be even faster (so the difference from my deep section wheels somewhat the same?) sure the conditions change, best to do this in the wind tunnel. but I dont have that opportunity.... Also I could not do more runs than this. I already did 6x10 min at 365Watt back to back!! I have my limits too hahaha about the cockpit upgrade on the TT bike, that would cost more money.... we are comparing budget TT with roadbike. That was the idea of the test. So bike vs bike without changing stuff around that would cost more money or we dont have.
That's it mate. Just a field test! The aeroad saddlebwasn't that comfortable but I didn't like the tt seat either. Overall the bars on the aeroad felt really good.
The advantage of even a cheape TT bike is that it allows you to get into a very low and usually with lower CdA. Looking at your position, you have not much or no advantage so.... is not the biike, its your positining in it. Get lower, get your arms closer and bend your shoulders, than you will be faster
very good test i have tested in the past with this idea and some cases the TT BIKE IS SLOWER than road bike as you tested back in my days 1984- 2000 its funny how your normal road bike is faster, so is mine same thing godbless , keep up the hard work, love your videos peace .
So a disc wheel is the massive difference. (Read Graeme Obree's book. Take the chain off, clean it in solvent, then soak it in PTFE lubricant. That ultra-slippy chain is worth a surprising amount of power, and it costs nothing to do this).
Thanks Jasper, good effort, have you considered raising the TT bar angle? this pushes the elbow down, thus dropping your head. Also looks to me like you need to stretch out another 3cm, this will flatten your back, you might loose 20-30 watts, but the gain in Cd will more than compensate.
Bike brands like Canyon and Ribble sell TT bikes for less than €2500. The difference with their premium line is groupset and wheels but the tube shapes and geometry are identical. Most brands do indeed only sell a top of the line TT bike but a bit of detective work will get you a brand new one for a pretty reasonable price
Cheapest Canyon Speedmax right now is €2.299,00 with the excellent R7000 105 groupset and shallow wheels. €2.999,00 will get you one with a 80mm rear wheel and 58mm front wheel. Cheapest Ribble Ultra TT is only €1.771,85 again with 105 and shallow wheels. They also have the option to customise your bike, not just the colour but also the components. If there's more brands please add! I'm on a market research quest quest the moment. Might buy a TT bike next year
As a former triathlete, this is crazy interesting.. I would have thought the TT will slightly win. Also would like to see you road bike without the aerobars riding in your drop on this comparison
Couple of points: 1. If you don't want to die in a crosswind *never* ride a deeper front wheel than your back wheel. But that's neither here nor there 2. The advantage of a TT bike is that it can get you in a *better* position than a road bike. It's of course no surprise that *in the same position* a super aero current road bike is faster than a 10 year old bike (external cables *shudder*). Looking at your position you should be able to drop your front end further and hence rotate yourself forward further, and that should improve your CdA markedly. 3. You can't do linear extrapolation like you do at the end of the video. Aerodynamic drag goes up by the cube (derde macht) of the speed, so if going 41km/h takes X Watts more than going 40km/h, 42km/h will take X*X*X Watts more. (well, not really. There are other terms. But that's roughly how it works)
1. I still survived, i'm a big boy 2. handlebar wouldn't go lower on the TT bike so this was as low as I could get. 3. I know but thats too complicated for this video. this was just a speculation
I just bought an older TT bike, my road bike isn't as high end as this and I can't mimic the position as perfectly as in this video. I'm curious to see what my test will show as far as speed gains/losses. I plan to use it for my next ironman and suspect the gains from the improved position will be worth the $200
Aeroad is awesome bike, wish you did the closed wheel not just extrapolate -- you did a great job matching position and give that you are the most non-aero part the old bike with cables...loses but if you need to TT on occasion and just buy bars and a disc wheel, pretty cool. Now you just need a short nose saddle :-)
On the TT bike you are going from aluminium shallow rim to full disc. You can't expect the same improvement from changing the aero wheels on the canyon to the full disc wheel. However there's probably some additional gain from using the aero bottles on the canyon.
If you were trained in the TT position you would probably get a different result. 2 seasons ago I was regularly racing a 2006 Giant TCR TT with 10 speed, since replacing it with a current model, I have seen very little improvement over the same TT courses.
Great Video Jasper. I have a similar dilemma, I have an Aeroad WITHOUT TT bars and have done well in local Club Time Trials against TT bikes. I'm debating if it's worth buying a Canyon Speedmax or just buying Clip on bars, or indeed carrying on with the road bike. I know you have strong links with Canyon, would they lend you a Speedmax to test these three scenarios?
What do you know that I don’t? My “links” with canyon are faded… it’s been a while that I spoke to anyone from canyon. Unfortunately they don’t see my value. But a modern TT bike will be much faster I’m sur le but it needs bike fit and training on the bike!
Great video Jasper, I would have loved to know the weight of the full packages as well as made sure the tires in both the TT and road bike should be the same as tires can make a big difference.
Remember you can always turn the seatpost 180 degrees to obtain a more forward seat position (as the seatpost head is mostly sloped backwards near the head). Lots of Tri-people do this to make racebike into a TT bike ;-)
Great video! I am really curious about what setup you used to film while on the bike? I’m curious about the camera mount, what camera you use!! Thanks in advance if you’re able to reply!
Best option is throw a disc on your aero road bike with clip on bar extensions and maybe a tt saddle if you don’t like sitting on the nose of your road saddle
Nice one Jasper but I think, compared to 10 years ago, bike tech has moved on massively. The profiles of your Canyon are possibly a lot more aero than the Planet X but a very interesting comparison anyway. 👍🤟🤟
Very nice comparison. And you weren't even mentioning fatigue when riding the Canyon Aeroad. You already pushed 360W for about 25km when starting to ride the Canyon. I know this is peanuts for you but still.... :-)
Wow didn't expected the road to be on top. It would be nice if you can compare with a newer TT bike as well. I Bought second hand PlanetX Exocet2 with Sram Red(older one but reliable and light) for 1.1K Euros. Do you think the head portion and the coved back wheel played big role in the better aerodynamics? btw have you tried the wing saddle?
Watching your position in comparison to the roadie for me is pretty decent if not even better. I saw some mby key diff: your back seems less steep soo better air separation and second in the TT poss I think you extend your leg a bit lower... On which bike did you feel more secure in the TT poss? And have you tried diff crank lengths, I've herd there might be some gains there idk
GCN did a great vid on aero bang for buck check it out. Biggest aero drag lump is you the rider so getting into that low preying mantis shape with elbows in and tt helmet and 'suit' is the biggest saving, bike shape is marginal gains after that and you proved that with newer mechanics actually being faster 👌👍
Nice video! But you assume the advantage of budget TT with disc over budget TT low profile wheel is the same as disc vs low profile wheel of road bike when calculating the virtual data. I think the disc advantage for the road bike is less pronounced because of the high end wheels you used for the non-disc road bike test. Makes sense?
Great video, as always!! I don't quite understand the logic of pushing harder for the tailwind section. When measuring the efficiency of the frame, isn't the airspeed what should be considered? Not the groundspeed? In other words, the TT bike would have more of an advantage going into a headwind and by doing less watts during that part, one effectively fails to capitalize on that. Secondly, variances in wind velocity between different test runs would be more complicated than simply cancelling each other out despite the fact that it's headwind out and then the same tailwind back? ie: less wind will result in a faster time overall even on an out and back course? Anyway, thanks for the video.. means I have one less excuse for being slow on my roadbike 😁
You are 100% correct. I'm completely aware of the air speed vs groundspeed difference and effect (trust me, I'm a pilot😉) However I wanted to have a faster and slower (or higher and lower power) segment to have some different effects with different speeds. Maybe you're right and it would have made more sense to push the higher power numbers on the headwind section? (thus giving even higher airspeed)..... thats all in hindsight though... off course I can't really influence or cancel out the difference in wind speeds...... its only an approximation and a test within my best resource abilities.
Interesting, maybe you could have done a 4th bike test whereby your canyon Aeroad is set up as a road bike without the clip on aero bars as a comparison……
Would you buy a cheap Time Trial bike, or just ride your road bike!?
What if I have a cheap road bike?
Should I buy a cheap TT bike or a disc wheel?
Use the disc with your road bike
If I have a high end road bike, I would use it over the cheap tt bike...
Well, since I only have a budget road bike buying any of those above would make me significantly faster. :D But I am okay with it, cycling is not the only thing I would like to spend money on. I will possibly buy racing wheels for circa 800 Euros and one TT bar but nothing more.
I would say, for around 1.5K € you get a really nice road bike with really good components. I think an amateur like me would not get any faster with any kind of 5k bike... perhaps you would get an upside in comfort.
Any thoughts to this thesis? 😉
im equally as impressed that a $600ish tt bike kept up with an aeroad tbh.
Indeed. Is a 1 minute improvement worth the Extra 5k?
@@danielmacdonald4005 for a professional it is. For a normal weekend/amateur rider definitely not.
600 quid is a steal...I don't necessarily think the 6,000 nicker you'll dish out makes the Aeroad 10 times the better bike.
@@danielmacdonald4005 The point is that the road bikes is not designed go be a tt bike but it still won, a 5k tt bike would be even better
Yes, indeed, you still can race (not compromising that much), with bicycle worth 500$
To be fair, the Canyon Aeroad is one of the most aerodynamic road bikes out there
Hence the name lmao
And also to be fair, I don't think the Planet X is a TT bike, it's a road bike with aerobars and disc to begin with. Edit: it was one, but the geometry is more like an aero road bike these days. Really hard to compare it with a modern TT bike, a few hundred bucks more and he would have gotten something with a more modern TT design which is probably faster. But the aeroad is very similar to a TT bike in general, so I wouldn't expect much gains even with a recent TT bike.
@@Alex-kr7zrit's a TT bike, albeit a very slow one, even when it was new😂
@@veganpottertheveganjup, exactly what I wrote
98.6% performance for 1/10th the price. Get a better front wheel and the difference is gone. Good job dude.
I forgot to say, the Video is shot on this 360 camera: www.insta360.com/sal/one_r?insrc=INR47RE
Also: (*small mistake in extrapolated data: section A should've read 39.2km/h)
On the TT you seem to have a camera hanging out front catching the wind, while on the Canyon I do not see it. Aerodynamics of a bluff body are pretty terrible, so I wonder if that could have played a role as well?
Planet-x stealth was used by Cadel Evans back in 2007, taking 2nd place in the Albi time trial (behind Vinokourov) and later in the Angouleme time trial (another second behind Leipheimer). So this model is already 13 years old. A 'fair' comparison would be to take exactly the same front wheel so you have a realistic comparison. One last remark: you get pretty much in the same position on your road bike in TT mode as on the TT bike, but most road bikes have too much stack, and a slack seat tube angle (to much saddle setback). The Aeroad seems to have a pretty low stack and you can push the saddle all the way to the front and have the saddle position fairly the same as with the Planet-X, but you can't do that with many other bikes. Still, a nice comparison!
The Aeroad is crazy low at the front. Its far and away Canyons lowest/lomgest geometry in any size. I would love to ride one, but I think nothing looks worse than a high end race bike with a tower of spacers under the stem. Not to mention it is also dangerous
Youre exualy verry underrated espacely for the quality of the content youre producing!
Cheers!
A couple of observations that account for your findings
I know you think you position is similar on both bikes, but they are actually not. Your back on the road bike is nice and flat which is ideal as it delays separation of the air meaning less turbulent drag.
On the TT bike your back is rather rounded meaning you have air separation earlier and so have a lot higher drag.
Secondly, the helmet selection for the TT bike is very poor. Ideally, you want a helmet that fills in the area between your head and your upper back and this helmet doesn't do that at all.
Due to your different position on the road bike, the helmet does a better job of filling in the void, bu its still less than ideal.
Far and away the biggest advantage you get from riding a TT bike is not the difference in drag between a TT bike and a road bike (although it is there), its the position it allows you to ride on the TT bike that optimises the drag of your body. Your position would need a far bit more tweaking before it would be close to what you could achieve.
Your position on a TT bike needs to be optimised as the closed hip angle (even with a steep seat tube angle) means most people generate less power on a TT bike vs on their road bike but if your position is optimised, the drop in power is more than made up for with the reduction in aerodynamic drag.
and for triathletes: having more open hips on the TT bike means better running after the cycling leg
This! Also, this budget TT happens to have external cable routing. While the difference of that may be marginal it's really not a fair comparison. Internally routed bikes were obviously around well before 2010 so a fair comparison should be to a TT bike that also has internal routing.
Agreed guys... also the geometry of the Planet-X stealth has a less steep seat-tube angle than most TT bikes... Do it again with a more vertical seat tube geometry 🤪
@@michaelbanks3571I agree, would have been a better comparison with a Planet X - Exocet 2 or 3 which have an aggressive position, internal cable routing and can still be found around the same price mark
I found this video very useful thanks.
I have a Scottfoil with aero bars and was convinced I would be better off using this for hilly long course tri as it’s super aero, over spending on another bike I would rarely ride. This has put my mind at rest. Thanks for a very well put together test with some really interesting results.
Interesting comparison. I‘m sure a high end TT would be way faster than the aeroad. I did 44 km/h in training on my Trek Speedconcept for over 60min loop and just had to push around 310 watts. I‘m also not the smallest guy. And this can be done even faster in a better position.
Very interesting video, when I first got a “cheap “ TT bike my CDA according to Golden Cheetah was worse than my road bike with clip on TT bars, as in the video. But over time I have improved my position on the TT bike (to a position not achievable on the road bike) to reduce my TT CDA to much lower than the road bike.
Dam it's a real shame you didn't do the road bike test with just the standard drop bars. That would have been a complete test and would have given us valuable insight.
An idea for the future 👍🏻
In this case I wanted to test my TT setup specifically
i have that exact same TT bike, and a high spec aero road bike. TT bike is now getting sold haha
hahah rip tt
Nobody is going to buy it now. 😁
@@dzonibravo7867 why not? Its so cheap and almost as fast aus the Canyon aeroad
Loved your super in-depth review of your Canyon. This bike is famous. I’m stoked to see you still have it! 🤘🏼
Cheers man
The "Virtual Data" section should only be compared qualitatively with the measurements due to the highly non-linear nature of turbolences. You must not simply add the differences. Further, I suspect these results to suffer from considerable scatter, especially under such windy conditions.
Anyhow, I think the qualitative differences between the bikes are quite striking. I'm surprised that the Aeroad is faster despite the not-so-aero handle bars. Apparently the rest of the bike design compensates for it. Then, the never ending wind tunnel ad campaigns of the bike companies would at least be justified.
Great video, Jasper!
Like the cycling fanatics jersey!
thanks mate! you can find it here: www.thevandal.be/product-categorie/collabs/cycling-fanatics/
awesome video, how do you mount your 360 camera on your bike, in this video?
isolation tape
@@jasperverkuijl *insulation tape. Great video Jasper 👊
@@victor-emmanuel7485 that's what i mean haha
Different tires could make a big rolling resistance difference. Cool test though. Thanks for sharing!
Love how much works you've put for this video! Really interesting
Fascinating video and really well put together! It would be interesting to see how much the theoretical value at 13.52 would change when you consider that aerodynamic drag increases as a function of velocity - so the speed increase would probably be slightly less than you calculated. And then there is tyre pressure, rim width and weight. (Part 2 for the video?!) So many variables but what you experimented was really interesting and much more than I could try. Kudos!
Glad to see SoCal still getting represented across the pond! 🤙🏼
you know it
In these days the differences between TT bikes and aero road bikes are minor than before, it’s more about the wheels and bars for postion and the outfit I think.
Great video !
That's good to know as TT bikes are so expensive! I just did my first TT where TT bars /TT bikes were allowed a few weeks ago(2 stage race). Cause I don't have a TT bike I just borrowed some clip on bars from a friend. Anyway 2 other friends had the same set up. They averaged 20W's more than me but I was a few seconds faster than them, so I think my bike and 50mm wheel combo must be relatively aerodynamic for a roadbike.
Hey ! Love your videos, I think you bring a needed fresh vibes in the UA-cam road cycling game.
I had two videos suggestions : a reaction video on road cycling memes, and a kinda "GCN bike vault" video but where you rate our bikes and you suggest us what to upgrade next based on what we want to do with them... Thx again for your content
Zoals altijd jouw video is echt geweldig! alsjeblieft... ga zo door Jasper! 😁👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Such a great video! My TT bike is lucky it’s not a budget one and there’s no way I can get the same position on the road bike. So TT stays for now I guess until I can afford a €6K road bike to replace both 😁
Funny that Jasper know that if you want to compare to TT anything but road bike you heed to use clips on TT bars yet GCN somehow forgot about this lately. Props man I'm your fan
Thanks mate.
I really want to see this test repeated with a modern TT bike. Doing it on a day without wind would be useful too.
Think you did a good comparison of the bikes, only remark on it is you could have used the spark wheel works fron wheel in both bikes to further reduce the variables between bikes.
What is missed in this video though is that the advantage of a seperate TT bike, even a cheap one, is that you can really work on optimizing the position. The guy on the bike is where 80 or 90% of total drag comes from. You set it up now decently matched between road and TT but with some additional work you could probably achieve a better position on the TT bike which is where the speed gains really come from.
I get your point. however I could not use those wheels because of the 10 speed / 11 speed difference. (the spark wheels are 11 speed so wont work with the TT bike...)
yep, I think I did mention that about optimizing position. I tried to have them optimized best as I could at that moment and it could probably be further optimized for both. Would be interesting to take this to the wind tunnel!?
Friction shifters are so simple, yet a thing of beauty. You can do things that no electronic or modern indexed shifting system can do.
Good test but the tires can make big difference!Try next time with the same tires,same inner tube,same pressure
Different wheels are better with different tires at different pressure
Good point
@@mitchellsteindler different tires make fake results
@@cyclingschannel false. If both tires are optimized for the the rim, then that's the best you can do. If one rim works better with a tire than the other, than one bike will be disadvantaged. Of course nothing like that was done here.
@@mitchellsteindler for see the real difference between these 2 bike was better to use the same tires and the same wheels
really cool test ! obviously the Aeroad is more performant than the planet-X.
If i had your bike and need to race a TT, i suggest to change the handle bar for a TT one, add a disc wheel, change the saddle. I think it will cost less thant buy a entry level TT bike that you don't use very often
Interesting! But my first thoughts were „the canyon is by far the fastest“. The question is why? The wheels? The wheel bearings?
Another interesting test would be the benefit of a lightweight climbing bike against for example a TT bike. I really asked myself, watching the time trial at the end of the Tour de France, if the bike change at the bottom of the climb was worth it. Also because changing bikes costs about 10 sec...
Lanterne rouge has a very good video about it!
tt bikes are really heavy, so it matters a lot on a climb
In my experience not being able to shift gears easily on a road bike with TT bars is a major negative. You need to be able to microadjust your gear ratio to maintain steady cadence/power whilst in the aero position. TT bike would get my vote for that factor. If you live in the Netherlands where you won't have to change gears often then you might get away with it ;)
You got me with that last part. I was thinking to myself... microadjust... what is this guy on about, yeah i live in a very flat area haha
@@geraldfisher6475 Indexed shifting doesn't allow you to do trimming adjustments as precise as friction shifters.
@@geraldfisher6475 Ok probably the wrong choice of verb, but oh well! Basically, go try a TT with clip on bars in hilly area and/or with wind and you'll see how hard it is to put down constant power and get in and out of the aero position.
not realy a real world issue since electronic shifting
yep you're right. I had to shift a few times in my run on the road bike. getting out of the aero position every time. but it was still faster haha.
Love the 360 filming
Great video. I am looking into the same situation. I'm curious if the budget tt bike is faster than the high end road bike without clip on bars. Just in the drops or on the hoods. Because I don't want to change my set up on my road bike.
I think as you pointed out a TT bike normally allows for much more aggressive position so gain even more aero advantage but here the Aeroad can achieve the same fit. I also think the mechanical loss as pointed out by many is to blame. I also suspect it may be down to the interaction between your shoulders and helmet that contribute towards the speed gain. You shoulder is clearly sticking out more with the Aeroad than the TT bike. This may help the pressure recovery after the helmet but im no aero expert, just my guess.
Suggestion: Download the raw speed and power data for each run, and over some small interval divide the speed in km/hr by the watts. This will eliminate any differences in effort or wind or passing cars, ETC. Tough to do where you are, but another aero test is to roll down a hill without pedalling. The only thing affecting your speed would be the changes in position, clothing, bike, etc.
Very precise test (for one-person laboratory), kudos for that! My 5 cents into the discussion. Mechanical resistance is of course the issue here for older TT. What I'm more interested in is what would have been the results on old TT with the modern wheels (none closed disc), from your younger road bicycle?! That would be very interesting to see. I think the results would still be in favor of road bicycle, but my guts are saying the margin would be smaller. The wheels manufacturing has changed and improved a lot, and wheels are plenty factor to matter.
Myeah i put a new high performance wheel in the front but couldn't do that in the back because of the older 10 speed on the TT.
So it's only the rear wheel mechanical drag that's the difference. I think it's pretty small but it's there yeah
A note: a disc wheel, compared to your quite aerodynamic wheels on the road bike, will not make that much of a difference it made on the old TT rig. especially not at low yaw angles (riding straight in/with the wind).
but still, interesting video!
Cool test Jasper!! Thanks for sharing this thorough experience. Your fanatism is infectious. About the test, if it isn't the difference in wattage or aero position (what determines the wind resistance partly) then the following aspects are maybe decisive: brand rubber tire and inner tube, pressure tire, wheel bearings, chain tension,
cassette + ketting + chainring quality (Ultegra/Dura Ace, amound of hours used) or stiffness bracket? Finally, I think Canyon is doing its homework very well. Just look at MvDP ;-)
the difference is everywhere. I wont be able to track or isolate that. the test was bike vs bike, in the setups i had available. (Y)
Thank you so much for this test,it was particularly helpful to me because I have both of these bikes.It would be intriguing to know the difference in times with and without clip on bars on the Canyon Aeroad,due to the aero shape of drop bars,good clip ons are scarce.
Great Video. Answers a question I had during last season.
Ha, I was right when you posted the question which would be faster :) Aeroad all the way baby! I have the same bike, although in Movistar blue :)
Great analysis Jasper, you did a good job of limiting the variables and trying to get accurate and informative results!
Very interesting... I’d love to see a modern TT bike with all the current aero design applications vs the road bike with the TT set up... I got a feeling you might tick off some people JV... 😆
Appreciate your Hard work 👍
I wonder if over a longer effort the TT bike would get closer to the road bike due to the subtle differences in position being easier to hold on the TT bike than the road bike. Interesting experiment but with the planet X always being an open mould frame, I'd like to see a comparison against something like the Felt B16
Would be interesting to see if you put the the wheels of your race bike on the TT bike. This would eliminate one big variable and is maybe the cause of the slower speed. Who knows want the condtion of the bearing are, the chain and what kind of tyers are used on the budget bike.
yep, but this is bike vs bike. I'm not isolating anything. I had the choice between these two for my championship so thats what i tested
So, great work on the video, thank you! I am the guy who is right now looking at if I should buy a tt bike for triathlon. I have a tcr advanced road bike with aero bars now. I have looked at some used tt bikes but there are so many variables I am still confused. However I will not be buying one 10 years old if I get one. Now if you could do this with a mid range tt bike like 3-4000 it would be a very cool test.
Get a 80mm front and disc rear wheel and you'll be good👍👍
Great stuff! Thanks! We love these comparisons. I have a Canyon ultimate with aerobars and always tempted to get a TT bike, but what is the gain....who knows? So, thanks again. Any comparison video is welcome. Like an old this Plant TT bike vs a new one, or really against an expensive modern TT, and against a cheaper roadbike as well. 😉
Great vid Jasper 👍
Would love to see a test of speed, Clinchers vs Tubeless vs Tubular
How about a high-end TT bike vs your road bike for next video? 😂
Now do this with a mountainbike :) Btw Nice camera shots.
Did you keep the tyres the same? It makes a huge difference in rolling resistance watts.
just looking at your position at 14:54
Its so different XD
The road bike had a much more relaxed back = more flat and more aero.
Your TT Position you really put your head down = more arched back and lower head but looks less smooth.
From looking at the TT Position if you lengthen yourself a bit more maybe about 2-5 cm you would probably get a flatter back maybe?
Seat tube angle is superior on the TT. Your hips are more forward in relation to the cranks. That 4-5* angle makes all the diff in power.
Couple things to note. The difference between the disc and open wheel on your road bike would be far less due to switching from a semi deep wheel to disc on the road, whereas the TT bike had a shallow cheap looking wheel for that test. Second thing due to constantly changing conditions, tests aren't 100% accurate. You would need to run these tests many times over on each bike each set up, average the data out.. then look at the numbers (something like 10 passes on each ). I do think given you were able to get your road bike set up so close, you still may have the same results over this bike, but something such as a cockpit upgrade on that used TT would do wonders given the current set up is not very aero. The other consideration, is comfort for those doing a longer TT, are you going to be able to maintain that position on the road bike (as you mentioned the saddle being uncomfortable due to sitting so far forward on it).
Come on... the test was good enough. Are you trying to kill the guy? This is not a phd thesis. :) But I agree with you that I would like to have him comment on how comfortable he was on each of the setup.
About the shallow wheel/disc wheel and deep section wheel/disc wheel difference... you are right👍 But, (and this is just guessing) I compared with a pretty old Disc wheel. So maybe a super high end modern disc wheel would be even faster (so the difference from my deep section wheels somewhat the same?)
sure the conditions change, best to do this in the wind tunnel. but I dont have that opportunity.... Also I could not do more runs than this. I already did 6x10 min at 365Watt back to back!! I have my limits too hahaha
about the cockpit upgrade on the TT bike, that would cost more money.... we are comparing budget TT with roadbike. That was the idea of the test. So bike vs bike without changing stuff around that would cost more money or we dont have.
That's it mate. Just a field test!
The aeroad saddlebwasn't that comfortable but I didn't like the tt seat either. Overall the bars on the aeroad felt really good.
The advantage of even a cheape TT bike is that it allows you to get into a very low and usually with lower CdA. Looking at your position, you have not much or no advantage so.... is not the biike, its your positining in it. Get lower, get your arms closer and bend your shoulders, than you will be faster
this was as low as I could get on the TT bike. handlebar wont go lower
Man you put so much work into your video's......most appreciated from the UK!
Yeah 100%. Do one vs a modern TT!
Interesting comparison. Keep 'm coming :)
very good test i have tested in the past with this idea and some cases the TT BIKE IS SLOWER than road bike as you tested back in my days 1984- 2000 its funny how your normal road bike is faster, so is mine same thing godbless , keep up the hard work, love your videos peace .
Would be interesting to see compared with a normal riding position, but closed wheels
So a disc wheel is the massive difference. (Read Graeme Obree's book. Take the chain off, clean it in solvent, then soak it in PTFE lubricant. That ultra-slippy chain is worth a surprising amount of power, and it costs nothing to do this).
Thanks Jasper, good effort, have you considered raising the TT bar angle? this pushes the elbow down, thus dropping your head. Also looks to me like you need to stretch out another 3cm, this will flatten your back, you might loose 20-30 watts, but the gain in Cd will more than compensate.
Mmm, no didn't think about that. Can't move it forward any further, its now set to uci limit for TT
@@jasperverkuijl You are aloud one change due to your shape.
Great information. Thanks 👍
Bike brands like Canyon and Ribble sell TT bikes for less than €2500. The difference with their premium line is groupset and wheels but the tube shapes and geometry are identical.
Most brands do indeed only sell a top of the line TT bike but a bit of detective work will get you a brand new one for a pretty reasonable price
Cheapest Canyon Speedmax right now is €2.299,00 with the excellent R7000 105 groupset and shallow wheels. €2.999,00 will get you one with a 80mm rear wheel and 58mm front wheel.
Cheapest Ribble Ultra TT is only €1.771,85 again with 105 and shallow wheels. They also have the option to customise your bike, not just the colour but also the components.
If there's more brands please add! I'm on a market research quest quest the moment. Might buy a TT bike next year
add a disc wheel (1500-2000) and a powermeter (500-1500) and thats 6500...😅
oh and 1500 for Di2 because its more aero and give smore bike fitting flexibility (handlebars)
As a former triathlete, this is crazy interesting.. I would have thought the TT will slightly win. Also would like to see you road bike without the aerobars riding in your drop on this comparison
It wouldn't be logical to ride a tt or triathlon with normal drop bars. So didn't think that would be interesting to test
Very informative, thanks.
Couple of points:
1. If you don't want to die in a crosswind *never* ride a deeper front wheel than your back wheel. But that's neither here nor there
2. The advantage of a TT bike is that it can get you in a *better* position than a road bike. It's of course no surprise that *in the same position* a super aero current road bike is faster than a 10 year old bike (external cables *shudder*). Looking at your position you should be able to drop your front end further and hence rotate yourself forward further, and that should improve your CdA markedly.
3. You can't do linear extrapolation like you do at the end of the video. Aerodynamic drag goes up by the cube (derde macht) of the speed, so if going 41km/h takes X Watts more than going 40km/h, 42km/h will take X*X*X Watts more. (well, not really. There are other terms. But that's roughly how it works)
Also, for a counterpoint: check out GCN's recent video where a single guy on a modern TT bike beats two guys TTT-ing on modern road bikes.
1. I still survived, i'm a big boy
2. handlebar wouldn't go lower on the TT bike so this was as low as I could get.
3. I know but thats too complicated for this video. this was just a speculation
What a great video, you deserve better bro
I just bought an older TT bike, my road bike isn't as high end as this and I can't mimic the position as perfectly as in this video. I'm curious to see what my test will show as far as speed gains/losses. I plan to use it for my next ironman and suspect the gains from the improved position will be worth the $200
Aeroad is awesome bike, wish you did the closed wheel not just extrapolate -- you did a great job matching position and give that you are the most non-aero part the old bike with cables...loses but if you need to TT on occasion and just buy bars and a disc wheel, pretty cool. Now you just need a short nose saddle :-)
Bianchi Aquilla TT bikes are being sold on Ebay by NL team Jumbo Visma. A test with one of those bikes would be great.
If you can buy one in size L and send it over I'll do the test 😉😉
On the TT bike you are going from aluminium shallow rim to full disc. You can't expect the same improvement from changing the aero wheels on the canyon to the full disc wheel. However there's probably some additional gain from using the aero bottles on the canyon.
true
Random question, which clip on TT bars did you use on road bike? Interesting video
Borrowed it. Don't know really
We need review of the section cup bike mount
If you were trained in the TT position you would probably get a different result. 2 seasons ago I was regularly racing a 2006 Giant TCR TT with 10 speed, since replacing it with a current model, I have seen very little improvement over the same TT courses.
do cheap roadbike with timetrial suite vs. high end bike with normal kit.
Great Video Jasper. I have a similar dilemma, I have an Aeroad WITHOUT TT bars and have done well in local Club Time Trials against TT bikes. I'm debating if it's worth buying a Canyon Speedmax or just buying Clip on bars, or indeed carrying on with the road bike. I know you have strong links with Canyon, would they lend you a Speedmax to test these three scenarios?
What do you know that I don’t? My “links” with canyon are faded… it’s been a while that I spoke to anyone from canyon. Unfortunately they don’t see my value.
But a modern TT bike will be much faster I’m sur le but it needs bike fit and training on the bike!
@@jasperverkuijl that’s a shame, it’s a video I’d like to see. I think there is more glory in winning a TT on a road bike anyway! 😁👍
Great video Jasper, I would have loved to know the weight of the full packages as well as made sure the tires in both the TT and road bike should be the same as tires can make a big difference.
Weigjt doesnt matter in straight line steady pace.
Tires where different but that was included in the test, it's an overall test.
Remember you can always turn the seatpost 180 degrees to obtain a more forward seat position (as the seatpost head is mostly sloped backwards near the head). Lots of Tri-people do this to make racebike into a TT bike ;-)
i did
Great video! I am really curious about what setup you used to film while on the bike? I’m curious about the camera mount, what camera you use!! Thanks in advance if you’re able to reply!
I forgot to mention: www.insta360.com/sal/one_r?insrc=INR47RE
@@jasperverkuijl thanks a lot!
Best option is throw a disc on your aero road bike with clip on bar extensions and maybe a tt saddle if you don’t like sitting on the nose of your road saddle
Love this kind of videos! :D
But does it count when you Are not tucked in Aero posistion?
Nice one Jasper but I think, compared to 10 years ago, bike tech has moved on massively. The profiles of your Canyon are possibly a lot more aero than the Planet X but a very interesting comparison anyway. 👍🤟🤟
Very nice comparison. And you weren't even mentioning fatigue when riding the Canyon Aeroad. You already pushed 360W for about 25km when starting to ride the Canyon. I know this is peanuts for you but still.... :-)
Yeah last effort was getting hard. However power is power, so shouldn't matter. However I was sitting less still on the aeroad due fatigue
I would say the speed difference comes from little differences in body position and changes of wind speed during the ride.
Wind speed was steady. And with a long segment like this would be even between the two. (Never 100% windtunnel perfect I know but close enough)
Wow didn't expected the road to be on top. It would be nice if you can compare with a newer TT bike as well. I Bought second hand PlanetX Exocet2 with Sram Red(older one but reliable and light) for 1.1K Euros. Do you think the head portion and the coved back wheel played big role in the better aerodynamics? btw have you tried the wing saddle?
Your position will be most important. I couldn't get low enough on the planet x
Watching your position in comparison to the roadie for me is pretty decent if not even better. I saw some mby key diff: your back seems less steep soo better air separation and second in the TT poss I think you extend your leg a bit lower... On which bike did you feel more secure in the TT poss? And have you tried diff crank lengths, I've herd there might be some gains there idk
Great test 👍
Try a similar model and same year canyon tt bike to test the real differencd
GCN did a great vid on aero bang for buck check it out.
Biggest aero drag lump is you the rider so getting into that low preying mantis shape with elbows in and tt helmet and 'suit' is the biggest saving, bike shape is marginal gains after that and you proved that with newer mechanics actually being faster 👌👍
Nice video! But you assume the advantage of budget TT with disc over budget TT low profile wheel is the same as disc vs low profile wheel of road bike when calculating the virtual data. I think the disc advantage for the road bike is less pronounced because of the high end wheels you used for the non-disc road bike test. Makes sense?
true
Great video, as always!!
I don't quite understand the logic of pushing harder for the tailwind section. When measuring the efficiency of the frame, isn't the airspeed what should be considered? Not the groundspeed? In other words, the TT bike would have more of an advantage going into a headwind and by doing less watts during that part, one effectively fails to capitalize on that.
Secondly, variances in wind velocity between different test runs would be more complicated than simply cancelling each other out despite the fact that it's headwind out and then the same tailwind back?
ie: less wind will result in a faster time overall even on an out and back course?
Anyway, thanks for the video.. means I have one less excuse for being slow on my roadbike 😁
You are 100% correct. I'm completely aware of the air speed vs groundspeed difference and effect (trust me, I'm a pilot😉) However I wanted to have a faster and slower (or higher and lower power) segment to have some different effects with different speeds. Maybe you're right and it would have made more sense to push the higher power numbers on the headwind section? (thus giving even higher airspeed)..... thats all in hindsight though...
off course I can't really influence or cancel out the difference in wind speeds...... its only an approximation and a test within my best resource abilities.
Interesting, maybe you could have done a 4th bike test whereby your canyon Aeroad is set up as a road bike without the clip on aero bars as a comparison……
Yeah there is many things to test.
This was just a TT vs TT setup test
What about the road bike with closed wheel?
Hope to see you comparing Canyon Aerod vs Canyon Ultimate CFR.
Get me an ultimate and I can do that
Tyres and was the front wheel the same depth on both?
Different wheels. Similar but different
Cool video and results, 🤙🏼✌🏼