I’m really, really trying but struggling to listen to this guy. Simon asks him to substantiate his claims, and he pivots to why a plant-based diet is supposedly bad without ever substantiating his viewpoint. I commend you for your very thorough discussion about plant-based diets, Simon!
I couldn't listen to the whole thing. I kept waiting for some kind of substantiation from the carnivore doctor, studies or research results that are applicable and that I could read myself. Never got it and I eventually gave up and stopped listening. That said, some people do seem to feel better on a paleo (not carnivore) diet, they don't do well with grains and dairy. I know some people that the paleo diet works very well for, they tried plant-based and they felt awful. I think there are enough people who feel better on a paleo diet than a plant-based diet, that there is something there we should examine with science. Whether it is genetics, or a damaged gut microbiome from antibiotics, or other environmental effects -- something is there. I on the other hand, have felt best and my health parameters have improved a lot being on a plant-based diet. So, I do think there is room for individualization of eating patterns based on testing them ourselves and checking outcomes both subjective (how do I feel) and objective (how have my health parameters been affected).
After an hour of this I am struggling to listen to Dr. Kilitz - the amount of gaslighting, folklore talk, story improvisation, avoidance of science, rampant ignorance of anthropology, lack of evidence-based approach, etc etc. I appreciate your approach Simon - what are the outcomes, what does the data show, what does science prove - save the stories - tell me the facts about what produces optimal health.
Simon presents science and evidence to make his conclusions and Dr. Klitz presents stories and anecdotes to make his. I think I’ll stick with Camp Critical Thinking. Thanks Simon.
“I think there are bad apples in every industry.” OBBBBBVIOUSLY, Simin. Apples are goitrogenic! They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away but if you really, really look at the STORY of william tell, that guy was messing with arrows in a way that, as a scientist, i can tell you was quite likely to end with someone’s heart stopping because an arrow was shot into it. Still think apples are safe to eat? What happened to newton? Clocked on the noggin by a damn apple!! You know what else is full of compelling stories? The Old Testament. You wanna read the book of Genesis and tell me apples arent poison?! if Eve had simply eaten from the tree of meat, she and adam would have been a-ok! But goitrogens and lectins and amygdalin cyanide, bro! You must feel well and truly chastened.
What you don't understand, and neither does Simon is there is ZERO science when if it comes to what human beings eat and any hard health outcomes from that. What you and Simon are referring to is the many thousands of epidemiological studies of which none qualify as "science". Science involves doing experiments and there has never been, and never will be any experiments done on human beings. Therefore there is no scientific evidence with regards to food and human health outcomes. You can delude yourself for as long as you want but nothing is going to change that fact.
I can follow him. I can say back when I was hardcore vegan I wouldn't be able to follow him cuz of brain fog / adhd caused by lack of nutrients and overconsumption of food. What he's trying to say is something people will not understand unless you've went through the same sort of personal experience with how therapeutic a plant free diet can actually be with your body. I'm not saying there's no other way. I actually believe I had microbiome issues that caused my illnesses and eliminating plants can help with that. But maybe also a microbiotic treatment could help in a plant based way. But it seems a lot harder and slower to do than just eliminate all plants and see immediate results.
Ugh. This is tough to listen to. I appreciate science and facts. Not pivoting to other topics in response to direct questions. I’m sticking with for Simon!
All science aside.. Where are the carnivore centenarians doing it for 40+ years? It's the proper human diet, right ? If you cant sustain if for 40+, it's not a diet that promotes longevity. I have a massive lists of PHDs in their 90 and 100 on plant based.. None of the carnivore proponents has a degree in nutrition, or has reached this advanced age, disease free. Those are red flags ! Simon, you have a great approach to this debate !
It's all a loose weave of a theory, massive claims with little to no long term substansiating evidence. Or as the late Carl Sagan put it, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
@@wfpbwfpb Nothing new under the sun. They just don't study enough. Their problem is in their microbiome, not knowing how to prep food, and there is a very small group of people with auto-immune diseases and allergies, who can't be accounted as advice for most human beings. With enough fasting, even this might be healed. We are Great Apes- Hominid /Herbivores with an omnivorous adaptation. We are not carnivores. And yes, the "Tribal ancestor Theory" and the isotopes do show that at some point we ate meat. This doesn't mean we lived long lives... Exactly the opposite
It depends on the user's goals and situation... If somebody is trying to fix their endothelium (75-100 year olds), then whole food based plant diet is the way to go. If somebodies metabolism is messed up, then carnivore or keto diet is an EASIER tool until the problem is managed (fasting also good for obese).
He he even explicity denounces the scientific method.. The debate camera work looked beautiful and simon did well not to lose his cool, but a better proponent of carnivore diets might be better next time yeah.
I couldn't get thru it, it was clear this guy was thrilled with his "stories" as if that was all you needed. That and the belief that the plant growers are controlling the meat industry and trying to destroy it, something he believes but "hasn't figured out" yet 🤣🤣🤣
42:37 "I want to know the science. I'm a scientist" A few minutes earlier argued all science is full of biases and his idea of top level hierarchical evidence was personal anecdotes. Lord above, I don't know how you kept your cool. Such utterly contradictory points in the space of a few minutes. So much meandering, supposition and conjecture without tangible evidence. What a charlatan.
Yes, though that is not his main point. The main point that he's trying to share is that many chronic illnesses can be cured by a carnivore diet and that the tradeoff for a potentially shorter life vs a healthy happy life might be worth it.
I'm agnostic on food. However, this doctor kept talking about 'science' and claims to be a 'scientist', but could not point to any study to support his "story in life". I think he is just telling people good news about their bad habits. People, even MDs, can get caught up in their personal epiphany and sound deranged.
I’m so glad this guy is not my doctor, but I feel sorry for the patients he gives advice to. He is opinionated with no regard for the research. Thank you, Simon, for bringing the science to those of us who want knowledge.
This guy loves his stories. Every time Simon wants to go to the science he just deflects with another story. Or digs down to mechanism and more stories. Is he allergic to quality outcome data or something? Everyone around us tells us stories our whole life ,but how do we figure out if they are worth listening to, especially if our health is on the line? Stories are mostly bias,we need to remove it so our story is as close to the truth as possible. We use science for that purpose. We remove our emotions and expectations and do the science to hopefully have a better idea where the truth lies as the result or where it doesn't. One hour in and I barely have enough patience to continue. No idea why I am watching it, I have heard all the carnivore arguments before both from inside the community and outside of it. Your guest collected a lot of biases fallacies and mental gymnastics. Scientists might be dogmatic,the system might be corrupt, people might be biased but we somehow move the science forward. At end of the day the science is here in a practical sense to improve our lives and ignoring it because you saw something which in your opinion contradicts it is very short-sighted.
Well he made it pretty clear that he doesn't think science is superior to personal anecdotes in terms of quality of outcome. This is (obviously) very unscientific. At that point I think we could all just turn this debate off yeah.. After saying that he goes back to saying the science is good, but not without undermining it. It's obvious those are his true feelings yeah.
The number one reason why medical doctors must take a course or training in nutrition, at an advanced level, is this debate. I’m truly gobsmacked at level of ‘scientific’ argumentation from Dr Kiltz. It’s frightening 😨
This guy is almost funny but scary. Flat earther, a term I heard Michael Gregor say. Words cant explain this atrocity. Thank you Simon. I work in a health and wellness establishment and watch people fall prey to clowns like this. Never stops amazing me the pseudo science.. I had someone tell me today that beans and grains are bad but she eats eggs and bacon she is trying to help her autoimmune disease. I have SLE Lups and other conditions. Nothing changed my life for the better than pure plant based vegan diet. Sooo sad for people 😢
No meat since 1976.Vegan ( organic WFPB) 14 yrs. According to this guys failed logic I should be long gone. I’m a 67 yr old female senior with bigger biceps than him😳
31 Year vegan, WF for about 12 years or so (Prior I was just vegan anything) been about 18% BF even through menopause, lift heavy, walk, and eat a good amount of plant protein. No health issue, yearly blood work is perfect, no joint pain, no regrets! :)
He never said anything like that you "should be long gone". But likely you struggle with some chronic disease. Can even just be a mental issue like depression/brain fog etc. Nothing? With all respect, maybe you have perception issues, cuz his biceps is certainly bigger than any 67 yo woman likely can be unless you're on steroids. Or you're confusing fat with muscle tissue.
This guy says so much yet so little...all over the place, can't stay on the topic or provide any substance. I don't pretend to be an expert on nutrition but people like Dr. Kiltz turn me off of their way of thinking about nutrition. To be fair, there are a lot of vegan doctors who make a lot of grand claims too. Reasonable, balanced Simon without his clickbait nor any combative attitude makes me think his way of eating has the most rationale behind it.
Simon, thank you for having this conversation. You handled it masterfully. You provided sound scientific evidence over and over again and he could only give anecdotes. He is practicing quackery in the name of "stories and freedom". I feel sorry for his patients. Thank you for doing the hard work of calling out this misinformation. Bravo!
I am impressed how many physicians pretend beeing scientific people … and have absolutely no clue about the scientific method ! … this guy doesn’t care about studies and consensus … he is interested in anecdotes and selected stories only … it’s a shame
Simon, you deserve an emmy or some award for your ability to maintain calmness and integrity while conversing with someone who eschews science. What an unscientific perspective Dr. Kiltz presents. I would add he thinks he has clear cognition; I'd say his thinking is quite muddled.
Omg Simon, you have the patience of a saint. This guy has a huge ego and is so misguided! I couldn't stomach the entire interview. I actually burst out laughing at some of his ridiculous statements 😂 You did a good job tho 😊
So many of Dr. Kiltz' followers (and other "carnivores") would be helped by reading, and actimg on, the work of Dr. Will Bulsiewicz. Seriously. The information in the chapter on histamines in his cookbook would help so many people.
"All plants are sugar and some are poison", (12:10) was so ridiculous! All of what he says based on anecdotes, mechanisms, evolution stories, and selected observational studies (which are only useful when paired with other **types** of studies!) At 23:20, finally he gets to the evidence question: "My grandmother" 😂
I can't be the only who feels like this guy speaks in circles. I'm trying to listen, but he can't seem to stay on point. I find him selfishly indulgent, as in he very much enjoys hearing himself speak, with a propensity to digress without focus.
Simon, I appreciate you siting down and trying to debate/convince/enlighten a carnivore zealot - that's fine, we all like learn and are open new ideas as science enthusiasts, but platforming such people who either don't understand their own ridiculous thinking or are not intellectually honest causes net harm and gives legitimacy to their unfounded arguments. The more a lie or half-truth is repeated, even in front of good information, the more the neutral or skeptic person would doubt your position as they think there "must be some truth" in the carnivore arguments and hence why there is this psedudebate on the topic. The truth is highly likely that a long-term carnivore diet is unequivocally not conducive to health - at least that's based on the totality of evidence and converging data that you wonderfully pointed to. Best!
I have been fully plant based for seven years. I am a strength fitness coach and I also teach martial arts. I am an active guy by all standards. But seven years ago, I was diagnosed with high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and elevated triglycerides, despite the fact that I was doing a keto style diet and weightlifting like a madman. After a lot of frustration, my wife and I came across the Mediterranean diet. We gave it a shot and in almost no time my lipid panel improved significantly. What was most amazing about this journey is that I went a couple of days without meat and surprisingly felt great. I told my wife that I was going to try to eliminate all animals from my diet and that I would make sure my doctor measured my blood panel as I went. Every single bio marker, including my body fat and weight dropped to an amazing level. Not only have I been able to maintain between 12 to 15% body fat, but at 39 I train many times a week, engaging in many different activities, and I recover so well. I truly believe with all of my heart that a Whole Foods plant-based diet can do wonders for people if they only know how to do it properly. Thank you, Simon for all of the hard work that you put into educating the world . I really appreciate you and just know that there are a bunch of us on the ground level putting work in every day to try to help save lives.
This sounds VERY similar to my husband's story as well (Story... I'm hating that word right now...) He is now in his 60's, thriving and his only regret is not doing it sooner. H
Well done Simon, you made a great case for the scientific method, very clear cut in my mind. I also was very impressed by your graciousness, but also your ability to bring things back on point. As a nutritionist myself, I really appreciate your scientific, non-dogmatic approach - whilst I class myself more as an 'omnivore' I find your views very interesting and would agree that a mediterranean approach is probably the best for health - although everyone will have their own take when it comes to environmental/ religious/animal welfare principles. That said, it did make me smile at the end when the vegan was defending fermented dairy to the carnivore! But I don't disagree with anything you said in th podcast Simon so props to you!
I’m one hour in and if Kiltz says “stories” one more time I’m going to freak out. I didn’t realize that I was in a literature class. He’s so damn condescending too. Ugh.
In my seventies vegan but eat honey and also eat lanolin. based Vitamin D, which is derived from sheeps wool. Vegan since 1990 veggie since 86 No meds no significant medial history at all and still without glasses. My BP always tends low as well as heart rate below 60 usually, Older things change, but all in all I think I am OK. Going to the gym after this to hit and kick the heavy bag for a 40 minutes or so. And some other stuff after that.Weight for shoulders kettle bell stuff. Diets are not all having the same results with everyone, I started this for less harm not health but I think it is Ok. I do supplement as I care about performance at exercise. Without that as prime probably only B12 and some D are necessary. If your exercise is a light walk or gardening you only need that. I eat dark chooolate every day a very low sugar kind, but am not worried at all about fat and the sat fat in chocolate. But restaurant food always tastes oily, so I may be adapted to a lower fat than the american norm. But really I do not avoid oils. I don't go to docs really my preference is not to live long but to live long doing things like tonight I will do. Carnivore both my parents had blindness due to macular degeneration and it is the leading cause of blindness in america. Egg yokes have small amounts of things which help to protect from that but carnivore. I fail to find a thing. Vitamins help a little but really things like lutin are it for that. I would not risk that long term..for what? You may become blind, which sucks and it happens often quickly with no real complete treatment for the wet kind. At the very least throw in some fruits and things leafy greens perhaps I am five eleven at around 187 or so which is my normal weight which I weighed when I was in my twenties, up and down since then depending upon exercise hobby I engage.but returning to that.I am not bragging, will never see a person who reads this , but people need to know vegan can be done fine for your whole life.. Carnivore who knows? I am always hoping to see the carnivore doc shawn baker at some gym I attend, him a native to the town I train at, to see if he can match my heavy bag workout ,which would be quite fun me 20 at least, older than him.
Simon you are a saint for tolerating this guy and calmly disputing his "stories". If a carnivore diet can help some people in the short run, that's fine, but long-term he has no evidence and a lot of speculation. Way to point out that podcasters who try to grab attention for clicks are about money, too!
Well, I certainly didn't have to worry about this (carnivore) guy convincing me I should change my thinking on plant based eating. Painful to listen to but not a waste of time. A glimpse into the thinking of someone who thinks humans are carnivores. I cannot relate to the complete relativistic viewpoint he has and also his paranoia of being controlled.
Dr. Kiltz killed me. I was laughing out loud at some of the things he was saying. I understand his motivation which is noble but wow, what a character.
Dr Kiltz ends by saying he cares about the health of everyone on the planet. How does he propose that 8 billion people eat like carnivores? If possible at all, it could only be done via vast factory farms. Kiltz's aversion to evidence and infatuation with storytelling is quaint at first, but utterly infuriating after two hours of repetition. How Simon kept his cool is beyond me. What an achievement! 😇
They could eat each other, I suppose. Actually, it could be done, by strategically fertilizing the ocean. But 80% of the "meat" you eat would be fish. It could also be done with tissue culturing. I don't know why I am analyzing this so closely. Clearly, 100% meat would be terrible for human health.
@@tonycollyweston6182 There are large areas in the ocean where there is very little phytoplankton because there is some limiting nutrient that the plants need. This is usually iron. Experiments have been done where they made a fertilizer and released it on a small scale to see if it would work to grow plankton and provide food for the fish, so the fish would multiply. And it worked spectacularly. But they never did it at scale because the US has a treaty with other nations that forbids this except as an experiment. I think we need to press for a modification of that treaty or just withdraw from it. It also has the great effect of removing a lot of CO2 from the atmosphere. There is also the problem of no one owning the ocean, so the Chinese or someone else could take all the fish we grew for themselves.
Mic drop! I have such respect for your patience with this guy. I found him quite creepy, similiar to an evangelical pastor spraking with phoney passion in an attempt to have listeners believe the nonsense that they speak.
Great Job Simon. Thank you for your knowledge, passion, patience, and articulation. Keep up the great work, informing us, educating us, reveling the truth, and keeping us healthy and alive. Blessings,& Love from all of us who love your pod casts. :)
I'm only 20mins in the primary argument seems to be around anecdotal evidence which is about as far from scientific as it gets. I'm also confused by what is meant by "more people are allergic to plants than animals" after which he talks about cancer. Does he think cancer is an allergy? I find it concerning that a highly qualified medical professional can be so confused about his own field of expertise, even if you remove the plant based, meat based debate I'm not convinced this gentleman is still aligned with the principles of good medical practise he swore to uphold.
2:30:55 things i didn't know: - mitochondria runs on fat, not carbs. - if we don't eat fiber, our gut flora starts eating the intestinal mucous layer and we get increased intestinal permeability.
Mitochondria (the electron transport chain) does not run directly on carbs or fat. It uses NADH and FADH2 as it substrates to generate ATP (the main fuel for our cells). Glucose is an excellent source for generating these substances--via glycolysis and the TCA cycle.
Mitochondria, often referred to as the "powerhouses of the cell," generate energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). They can utilize both carbohydrates and fats as energy sources, with the preference depending on the body's needs and activity levels. Key Points About Mitochondrial Energy Sources: 1. Carbohydrates (Glucose): Glucose is broken down into pyruvate through glycolysis. Pyruvate enters the mitochondria and is converted into acetyl-CoA, which fuels the Krebs cycle (citric acid cycle) to produce ATP. Carbohydrates are a quick and efficient energy source, especially during high-intensity or short-term activities. 2. Fats (Fatty Acids): Fatty acids are broken down in a process called beta-oxidation in the mitochondria to produce acetyl-CoA. Fats provide a more sustained energy supply, as they yield more ATP per molecule than carbohydrates. This process is slower and requires oxygen, making fats the primary fuel during rest or prolonged, low-intensity activities. Does Mitochondria Prefer Fats Over Carbs? It depends on the situation: At rest or during low-intensity activity: Mitochondria primarily utilize fats because oxygen availability supports beta-oxidation. During high-intensity activity: Carbohydrates are preferred because they can provide ATP more quickly, even in limited oxygen conditions. Diet and Nutrition for Mitochondrial Health: To support optimal mitochondrial function: 1. Include a balance of macronutrients: Complex carbohydrates (e.g., whole grains, fruits, vegetables) for quick and sustained energy. Healthy fats (e.g., avocados, nuts, seeds) for long-term energy and fat-soluble vitamins. Protein (e.g., legumes, tofu, tempeh) for repair and enzyme function. 2. Micronutrients that Support Mitochondria: B vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B5): Crucial for energy metabolism. Magnesium: A co-factor required for ATP production. Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10): Supports the electron transport chain and ATP synthesis. Antioxidants (e.g., vitamins C and E, selenium): Protect mitochondria from oxidative stress. 3. Lifestyle Factors: Regular physical activity enhances mitochondrial efficiency and density. Adequate sleep and stress management support energy metabolism and reduce oxidative damage. Conclusion: Mitochondria utilize both fats and carbohydrates for energy, with the choice dependent on activity levels and oxygen availability. A balanced diet rich in essential nutrients and a healthy lifestyle help maintain mitochondrial function and overall energy production. Source: ChatGPT
On the basis of what and according to whom? What we do know is there are thousands of former vegans who have turned to carnivore to heal from the damage that ridiculous diet did to them. To my knowledge I don't know of any former carnivores who decided to become vegan.
@@aaronmyers2382 70 year old vegan here have all my own teeth clear skin people tell me I don’t look 50 very active recently had my all my bloods done my GP told me whatever you are doing keep on doing it …BTW how old are you if younger then me come back and compare when you are 70 it’s ok I’ll still be here and so will my teeth
Just wondering why the carnivore doctor was deemed serious enough to even debate? He does not have expertise in the field, could not substantiate anything he was claiming, could not refute with evidence anything Simjon said. Isn't there a better expert?
I was really excited to listen to this debate but it was painful. Dr. Kiltz was infuriating to listen to, and completely tone deaf. On one hand, he believes in stories over science, but then proceeds to use proven science to make his points when he can. Anyway, now I’m ranting. Good job as always Simon.
19:19 right from the outset he’s trying to undermine and avoid nuanced, data driven, more specific argumentation so he can make generalised, surface level arguments where most basic level educated (in this specific area of nutrition) humans can understand him, not Simon, and win public favour rather than be accurate and correct. Basically like a lawyer, winning the majority over to win rather than to have a dialectic to figure out the truth or optimal as Simon suggested earlier
Well….Simon making it to the end of this is amazing. Giving him a platform is controversial in itself. I’m not surprised he was told to stop at his place of employment.
There’s a difference between an allergy and an intolerance. Also, there are roughly 300k known edible plants and 5 categories of animal products (meat, seafood, eggs, dairy and honey - seafood could be divided between fish and crustaceans). So, of course there are more ppl with food allergies or intolerances to plants… but let’s talk about how roughly 65-68% of the world’s population is dairy intolerant, vs 1-2% that have a peanut allergy, or 0.8% with nightshade allergies, 1% allergy to avocados, 2% have anaphylaxis to shellfish. I’m not saying one is better or worse, but these allergies aren’t making plants inedible on a large scale for ppl. My mom and brother have avocado allergies. I don’t. We all still eat plants. It doesn’t make the rest of them bad… what a ridiculous argument! I feel like a lot of this nonsense is a byproduct of FODMAP eliminations becoming popular. Again, improper messaging.
What's with the bowel bleeding? These people with these problems. He told him most people do not eat plants or fruits. The average person eats junk. I tried carnivores, and I felt terrible. I didn't want to cycle or do any kind of physical training.
I bet they both believe that exercise is healthy and important. But Simon reads through mountains of evidence from the scientific community in search of truth. Dr. Kiltz likes to tell stories and to listen to stories. That cross speaks volumes about his philosophical values. He loves powerful stories and doesn’t much care about the actual facts.
Can't listen to a debate when a doctor compares plants to cocaine and morphine. I think a more legitimate debate would have been between two research scientists who study nutrition.
This is probably the best episode lately! A very fruitful dialogue. Vegan for the animals, 9 years strong. I won't argue anything but Macrobiotic and Ayurveda which are thousand years old lifestyle traditions are vegetarian/plant based.
He’s not here for this in good faith, at all 38:38… This is exactly why people are so confused, he wants to tell everyone a story!! He’s not even really talking to you Simon, you’ve been way way too nice to him, get a psychologist to analyse his behaviours and way of speaking.
2:08:57 Dr Robert Kiltz: "You're trying to measure it by science. Science is poor at measuring things." 😊 Kind of summed it up for me. I suppose at least he didn't say "maths is poor at measuring things". 😊
13:13 As far as I’m aware there are very good studies showing that we evolved from plants, mainly tubers… Our brain runs with glucose, it makes sense that we’d evolve something with the fuel it runs on
@@aaronmyers2382a lie would be someone stating something they know isn’t true, as if it were true… Like the irony of this comment as you couldn’t possible know, lol!!
As far as I know, we didn’t evolve from plants, but we have the same ancestors. We do indeed share 55% of the DNA with bananas for example. But I absolutely agree, the doctor doesn’t know what he’s talking about. With his theory there shouldn’t be any plant eaters in the animal world, they must have all gone extinct by now.
Totally agree with you all. When challenged on science, he pivots to his being a doctor, a statistician… and then tells personal and patient stories. He sounded like a priest AND a snake oil salesman (by undermining science and public health). Also DONT refer to a study if you havent read it. It’s not only about the pretty pictures (graphs)! Thank you, Simon for your patience. I would have been putting a pencil in my eye about 45 minutes in.
PS I am a doctor in his field and I am embarrassed. Like Trump, Kiltz totally ignores science and facts, cherry picks questionable data… wonder if he will work under RFK Jr. Maybe he can sell the unproven-for-weight- loss green coffee supplements with Dr Oz. Ivermectin is looking for an indication other than deworming animals…
Not a statistician cause if he was he would understand the evidence pyramid. He literally doesn’t get it which makes me question his understanding. Anectodal being the least valuable.
I wish that Robert would simply admit that far more people in the USA are eating pizza, hamburgers, hotdogs, donuts, and ice cream on a daily basis than people who are eating Greens, Beans, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, and Nuts and Seeds. Most of the population has not increased their fruit and vegetable consumption while reducing animal, salt, sugar, and alcohol consumption. The recommended guidelines have simply NOT been followed by the general public.
2:27:27 Simon: it’s my duty to serve people the best I can by studying and exploring the science and data as objectively as possible Robert: it’s my passion to tell stories, and tell you that my stories and better than your stories because it’s all just stories in the end but meat rules, plants kill and that’s a fact but not a fact fact, just my story and opinion kinda fact which people who eat animal flesh will love… Manipulation through emotive words, because my passion is more powerful than your duty… you’re doing it because of obligation, I’m doing it because of love… The only lie Simon told is that he would like to hang out with this guy, surely not, be serious, come on!! 😂😂 He might be a lovely guy but so disingenuous, Simon is being way, way too nice here
I tried but I couldn’t listen to this one, Simon. I had to stop, it frustrated me to listen to this guy. Hope your blood pressure returned to normal now
This was such an infuriating listen. Reminiscent of listening to a preacher that has such an inflated sense of self. Comparing science with stories of his grandmother! And with such conviction. I appreciate this was an important debate because there is so much nonsense out there but man it must have been hard. Anecdotes don’t trump science. Pun very much intended.
Everything Dr Kiltz said was so abstract/non specific and he constantly dodged questions using "story" as an excuse for everything. It honestly frustrated me listening to this. Good job challenging him Simon.
Thanks for remaining calm and collected during this, but also repeatedly calling him out when needed. Given the MAHA movement in the US I think this type of dialogue is meaningful though. It's very unfortunate that nowadays too much of our media/facts live in the realm of opinion and belief.
„The meat producers are just sharing their food and I wish they would tell us more about how good it is for us“- wtf? So, he argues that big meat and big dairy are altruistic organizations that only want people to be healthy, that’s why they torture and kill hundreds of millions of animals each year. And then he knows that big meat and big dairy are not investing in scientific studies to make people eat or drink more of their products (which is absolutely and ridiculously false, just look up the numbers). But surely he’s not getting any money from big meat or big dairy, isn’t he? Speeches, seminars, whatever? No? Ok, if he says so…
Its funny how he talks about the power the mind when it comes to smoking but not with dairy, he's contradicting himself over and over again... Im not vegan but Kiltz makes me want to become one!🤣
Watched the full debate and enjoyed it I come from a plant-based bias but find the science of nutrition fascinating ate meat for most of my life just turned 76 so a long time but I believe have an open mind on the subject especially if supported by scientific data and meta-analysis I would first commend Simon for his composure throughout the debate with the good Doctor who despite his regular reference to being a physician and scientist did not substantiate his views on the basis of either science or medicine continued upper limb gesticulation irrational answers to Simon's questions and at times almost comical in his presentation if anything I believe the majority of people who watched this debate even die hard meat eaters excuse the pun would discount the extreme views of this man and look further into the controversy of diet to benefit heath full credit to you Simon for putting up with him but in my opinion your time would have been better spent debating a credible physician or scientist as you have in past episodes. Cheers Michael
Of course Mr Australian prefers Government intervention and Mr conservative America prefers no government and no regulation. Simon rightly points our that it's not the individuals fault when the guidelines have failed and Big Corporations control folks diets so much. This conversation was doomed from the start based on those deeper philosophical differences but I enjoyed the back and forth and how well Simon handled himself throughout. Well done!
I’m from Wisconsin. I’ve never seen people eat for processed food in my life. Kwik trip, fast food, bar food, etc. Most don’t work out. Most are at the bar drinking. They go towards a carnivore diet because they love meat, and it ties in with their culture (farming/hunting). They would have the same if not better results if they followed a vegan diet, but it’s highly frowned upon, and you’re constantly ridiculed. Also our ancestors didn’t primarily eat meat. They were alive for millions of years before having access to weapons/tools/fire, and they weren’t out catching wild animals with their bare hands. Go try it. If they wanted meat they had to risk eating an animal that they found dead or that died of disease and compete to get it.
🤔13:33: “I was never there, none of us were there but certainly the scientific review of what we likely ate for many many years was probably raw meat.”
If you can choose between some nice fruits or nuts, that you can find everywhere without being in danger or some raw meat that you have to hunt down first… I think we all know that our minds and stomachs are absolutely into raw meat, come on! Don’t start with parasites, etc, that’s just extra protein!
He is definitely a smaller framed person. He seems to look good on the outside, especially for 70. Also, I believe genes play a big role in people’s longevity..his parents lived to 94 and grandmother 104….so, the guy probably will live quite a lot longer with the carnivorous diet.
Simon it is such a pleasure to listen to you how centered you can stay. Dr Kiltz was unbelievably uninformed which is certainly his right. He was almost comical it is sad anyone with only a “STORY”. can have so much influence over people
25:39 even his framing of the debate is misleading because probably about 90 percent of people are not choosing between vegan or carnivore diets. Has this guy never heard of an OMNIVORE? And that very prominent cross around his neck makes me wonder if he’s truly committed to scientific evidence.
I listened to this whole episode to the end. I learned nothing. But Dr. Kiltz's slippery relationship with science and factual data had me jumping up and hollering like I was at a poorly officiated football game with one side fouling on every play.
Sorry I can't finish this. It's absolute tripe. This Dr is a master of avoiding points, making excuses in lieu of presenting evidence, telling boring stories etc. It's like torture! "What's the best for form of evidence?"...."my grandmother". 🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂
This was one of the most interesting plants vs animals podcast I have heard….But, the guy is way too far out in left field. I wish there was more pushback by Simon when he talked about how plants cause colon cancer! And he mentioned several times that fiber and complex carbs are bad for people. This was totally insane. I wouldn’t have handled this nearly as good as Simon!
from my POV this is not a dialectic this is logic vs rhetoric and therefore not an actual debate i could not finish this due to the frustration i felt from Dr. Ks arguments
I’m really, really trying but struggling to listen to this guy. Simon asks him to substantiate his claims, and he pivots to why a plant-based diet is supposedly bad without ever substantiating his viewpoint. I commend you for your very thorough discussion about plant-based diets, Simon!
I couldn't listen to the whole thing. I kept waiting for some kind of substantiation from the carnivore doctor, studies or research results that are applicable and that I could read myself. Never got it and I eventually gave up and stopped listening. That said, some people do seem to feel better on a paleo (not carnivore) diet, they don't do well with grains and dairy. I know some people that the paleo diet works very well for, they tried plant-based and they felt awful.
I think there are enough people who feel better on a paleo diet than a plant-based diet, that there is something there we should examine with science. Whether it is genetics, or a damaged gut microbiome from antibiotics, or other environmental effects -- something is there. I on the other hand, have felt best and my health parameters have improved a lot being on a plant-based diet. So, I do think there is room for individualization of eating patterns based on testing them ourselves and checking outcomes both subjective (how do I feel) and objective (how have my health parameters been affected).
@ I agree 100%! Since we’re all so individual, it’s never going to be cookie-cutter, so I definitely think plant-based isn’t for everyone.
After an hour of this I am struggling to listen to Dr. Kilitz - the amount of gaslighting, folklore talk, story improvisation, avoidance of science, rampant ignorance of anthropology, lack of evidence-based approach, etc etc. I appreciate your approach Simon - what are the outcomes, what does the data show, what does science prove - save the stories - tell me the facts about what produces optimal health.
1 hour!? Man you're tougher than I am haha
@@Fanatikxs I honestly wanted to cry at some point it was painful and I genuinely don’t know how Simon could get through this without losing his mind
@@EternalJourneys I couldn't make it to the 25th minute.
I agree after an hour 😳
One of these guys talks like a scientist, one talks like a preacher.
a preacher and a slick salesperson
Or a babbling idiot, pick one
Simon presents science and evidence to make his conclusions and Dr. Klitz presents stories and anecdotes to make his. I think I’ll stick with Camp Critical Thinking. Thanks Simon.
“I think there are bad apples in every industry.” OBBBBBVIOUSLY, Simin. Apples are goitrogenic! They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away but if you really, really look at the STORY of william tell, that guy was messing with arrows in a way that, as a scientist, i can tell you was quite likely to end with someone’s heart stopping because an arrow was shot into it. Still think apples are safe to eat? What happened to newton? Clocked on the noggin by a damn apple!! You know what else is full of compelling stories? The Old Testament. You wanna read the book of Genesis and tell me apples arent poison?! if Eve had simply eaten from the tree of meat, she and adam would have been a-ok! But goitrogens and lectins and amygdalin cyanide, bro!
You must feel well and truly chastened.
What you don't understand, and neither does Simon is there is ZERO science when if it comes to what human beings eat and any hard health outcomes from that. What you and Simon are referring to is the many thousands of epidemiological studies of which none qualify as "science".
Science involves doing experiments and there has never been, and never will be any experiments done on human beings. Therefore there is no scientific evidence with regards to food and human health outcomes. You can delude yourself for as long as you want but nothing is going to change that fact.
For a carnivore this man sure loves him a word salad.
crazymaking!
Under rated comment
OMG I was thinking the same thing!😂
I can follow him. I can say back when I was hardcore vegan I wouldn't be able to follow him cuz of brain fog / adhd caused by lack of nutrients and overconsumption of food.
What he's trying to say is something people will not understand unless you've went through the same sort of personal experience with how therapeutic a plant free diet can actually be with your body. I'm not saying there's no other way. I actually believe I had microbiome issues that caused my illnesses and eliminating plants can help with that. But maybe also a microbiotic treatment could help in a plant based way. But it seems a lot harder and slower to do than just eliminate all plants and see immediate results.
Simon you are a class act. You speak with insight and wisdom.
„Enlighten me“ - I feel you, mate. My respect for you multiplied in that scene, I don’t know how you could keep your calm.
100% agree! Some of it was so infuriating, but again highlighted to me what a chat operator Simon is, and also what a top notch communicator he is.
Ugh. This is tough to listen to. I appreciate science and facts. Not pivoting to other topics in response to direct questions. I’m sticking with for Simon!
All science aside.. Where are the carnivore centenarians doing it for 40+ years? It's the proper human diet, right ? If you cant sustain if for 40+, it's not a diet that promotes longevity. I have a massive lists of PHDs in their 90 and 100 on plant based.. None of the carnivore proponents has a degree in nutrition, or has reached this advanced age, disease free. Those are red flags ! Simon, you have a great approach to this debate !
It's all a loose weave of a theory, massive claims with little to no long term substansiating evidence. Or as the late Carl Sagan put it, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
Yep. Plants are awesome. The dissonance of carnies is sad and idiotic.
@@wfpbwfpb Nothing new under the sun. They just don't study enough. Their problem is in their microbiome, not knowing how to prep food, and there is a very small group of people with auto-immune diseases and allergies, who can't be accounted as advice for most human beings. With enough fasting, even this might be healed. We are Great Apes- Hominid /Herbivores with an omnivorous adaptation. We are not carnivores. And yes, the "Tribal ancestor Theory" and the isotopes do show that at some point we ate meat. This doesn't mean we lived long lives... Exactly the opposite
there are some societies that are carnivore like the inuit, from what I heard as soon as they had the opportunity to change their diet they did lol
It depends on the user's goals and situation... If somebody is trying to fix their endothelium (75-100 year olds), then whole food based plant diet is the way to go. If somebodies metabolism is messed up, then carnivore or keto diet is an EASIER tool until the problem is managed (fasting also good for obese).
Robert Kiltz is so non-science based. Painful to watch and a waste of time.
He he even explicity denounces the scientific method.. The debate camera work looked beautiful and simon did well not to lose his cool, but a better proponent of carnivore diets might be better next time yeah.
Right, he kept answering questions about the research by denigrating scientific reporting entirely.
I couldn't get thru it, it was clear this guy was thrilled with his "stories" as if that was all you needed. That and the belief that the plant growers are controlling the meat industry and trying to destroy it, something he believes but "hasn't figured out" yet 🤣🤣🤣
@@George2647gwait, no, he claims he’s a scientist first, then he denounces all of science, thus denouncing himself by his own words 😳💀
Exactly he is a “scientist “ and a DR! Wtf!
35:35 how are you so patient with this guy, incredible stuff Simon, hats off to you!!
42:37 "I want to know the science. I'm a scientist"
A few minutes earlier argued all science is full of biases and his idea of top level hierarchical evidence was personal anecdotes.
Lord above, I don't know how you kept your cool. Such utterly contradictory points in the space of a few minutes. So much meandering, supposition and conjecture without tangible evidence. What a charlatan.
Dr kiltz mostly talking in circles and not answering questions.
After all "[he] could be completely wrong" LOLOL GTFO dude
That was a most shameless display of sophistry, deflection, and diversion.
Long term carnivore is gambling with your life and long term health with extremely bad odds. Even Sean Baker admits there’s no long term data.
true. carnivore is not wise, and we are NOT lions or tigers ! lol
Yes, though that is not his main point. The main point that he's trying to share is that many chronic illnesses can be cured by a carnivore diet and that the tradeoff for a potentially shorter life vs a healthy happy life might be worth it.
@the_master_of_cramp but it's all anecdotal until Randomize control trials, epidemiology, etc..
I'm agnostic on food. However, this doctor kept talking about 'science' and claims to be a 'scientist', but could not point to any study to support his "story in life".
I think he is just telling people good news about their bad habits. People, even MDs, can get caught up in their personal epiphany and sound deranged.
Kudos, Simon, for staying calm and collected in the proximity of this charlatan.
I’m so glad this guy is not my doctor, but I feel sorry for the patients he gives advice to. He is opinionated with no regard for the research. Thank you, Simon, for bringing the science to those of us who want knowledge.
I couldn't stand Dr. Kiltz so I didn't make it too far into the episode.
LOL, same. Also I was really bothered by his super thin malnutritious arms, just couldn't watch them.
This guy loves his stories. Every time Simon wants to go to the science he just deflects with another story. Or digs down to mechanism and more stories. Is he allergic to quality outcome data or something? Everyone around us tells us stories our whole life ,but how do we figure out if they are worth listening to, especially if our health is on the line? Stories are mostly bias,we need to remove it so our story is as close to the truth as possible. We use science for that purpose. We remove our emotions and expectations and do the science to hopefully have a better idea where the truth lies as the result or where it doesn't. One hour in and I barely have enough patience to continue. No idea why I am watching it, I have heard all the carnivore arguments before both from inside the community and outside of it. Your guest collected a lot of biases fallacies and mental gymnastics. Scientists might be dogmatic,the system might be corrupt, people might be biased but we somehow move the science forward. At end of the day the science is here in a practical sense to improve our lives and ignoring it because you saw something which in your opinion contradicts it is very short-sighted.
Well he made it pretty clear that he doesn't think science is superior to personal anecdotes in terms of quality of outcome. This is (obviously) very unscientific. At that point I think we could all just turn this debate off yeah..
After saying that he goes back to saying the science is good, but not without undermining it. It's obvious those are his true feelings yeah.
The number one reason why medical doctors must take a course or training in nutrition, at an advanced level, is this debate. I’m truly gobsmacked at level of ‘scientific’ argumentation from Dr Kiltz. It’s frightening 😨
This guy is almost funny but scary. Flat earther, a term I heard Michael Gregor say. Words cant explain this atrocity. Thank you Simon.
I work in a health and wellness establishment and watch people fall prey to clowns like this. Never stops amazing me the pseudo science.. I had someone tell me today that beans and grains are bad but she eats eggs and bacon she is trying to help her autoimmune disease. I have SLE Lups and other conditions. Nothing changed my life for the better than pure plant based vegan diet. Sooo sad for people 😢
No meat since 1976.Vegan ( organic WFPB) 14 yrs. According to this guys failed logic I should be long gone.
I’m a 67 yr old female senior with bigger biceps than him😳
31 Year vegan, WF for about 12 years or so (Prior I was just vegan anything) been about 18% BF even through menopause, lift heavy, walk, and eat a good amount of plant protein. No health issue, yearly blood work is perfect, no joint pain, no regrets! :)
He never said anything like that you "should be long gone".
But likely you struggle with some chronic disease. Can even just be a mental issue like depression/brain fog etc. Nothing?
With all respect, maybe you have perception issues, cuz his biceps is certainly bigger than any 67 yo woman likely can be unless you're on steroids.
Or you're confusing fat with muscle tissue.
This guy is actually dangerous!! Kudos to you Simon…I couldn’t deal with anymore of his ‘stories’ 😖
This guy says so much yet so little...all over the place, can't stay on the topic or provide any substance. I don't pretend to be an expert on nutrition but people like Dr. Kiltz turn me off of their way of thinking about nutrition. To be fair, there are a lot of vegan doctors who make a lot of grand claims too. Reasonable, balanced Simon without his clickbait nor any combative attitude makes me think his way of eating has the most rationale behind it.
Simon, thank you for having this conversation. You handled it masterfully. You provided sound scientific evidence over and over again and he could only give anecdotes. He is practicing quackery in the name of "stories and freedom". I feel sorry for his patients. Thank you for doing the hard work of calling out this misinformation. Bravo!
I am impressed how many physicians pretend beeing scientific people … and have absolutely no clue about the scientific method ! … this guy doesn’t care about studies and consensus … he is interested in anecdotes and selected stories only … it’s a shame
Simon, you deserve an emmy or some award for your ability to maintain calmness and integrity while conversing with someone who eschews science. What an unscientific perspective Dr. Kiltz presents. I would add he thinks he has clear cognition; I'd say his thinking is quite muddled.
I love how he doesn't even answer the question He skirts around it and tells you what he wants to tell you
Omg Simon, you have the patience of a saint. This guy has a huge ego and is so misguided! I couldn't stomach the entire interview. I actually burst out laughing at some of his ridiculous statements 😂 You did a good job tho 😊
33:33 He completely avoided, derailed and didn’t answer that question… At all, he speaks and argues like a politician
So many of Dr. Kiltz' followers (and other "carnivores") would be helped by reading, and actimg on, the work of Dr. Will Bulsiewicz. Seriously. The information in the chapter on histamines in his cookbook would help so many people.
Carnivores don't need help. When your body is healthy you don't need supplements or doctors. Have fun with your shrinking brain and no teeth. Lol
I am so tired of listening to the nonsense from the pro-plant brigade. Plants and seed oils are the two main causes of all disease in the West.
"All plants are sugar and some are poison", (12:10) was so ridiculous! All of what he says based on anecdotes, mechanisms, evolution stories, and selected observational studies (which are only useful when paired with other **types** of studies!)
At 23:20, finally he gets to the evidence question: "My grandmother" 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣
that caught me off guard too! Had to rewind and listen again!
I can't be the only who feels like this guy speaks in circles. I'm trying to listen, but he can't seem to stay on point. I find him selfishly indulgent, as in he very much enjoys hearing himself speak, with a propensity to digress without focus.
This guy speaks in dead-ends
Simon, I appreciate you siting down and trying to debate/convince/enlighten a carnivore zealot - that's fine, we all like learn and are open new ideas as science enthusiasts, but platforming such people who either don't understand their own ridiculous thinking or are not intellectually honest causes net harm and gives legitimacy to their unfounded arguments. The more a lie or half-truth is repeated, even in front of good information, the more the neutral or skeptic person would doubt your position as they think there "must be some truth" in the carnivore arguments and hence why there is this psedudebate on the topic. The truth is highly likely that a long-term carnivore diet is unequivocally not conducive to health - at least that's based on the totality of evidence and converging data that you wonderfully pointed to. Best!
that was kind of my worry too, legitimizing him....
I have been fully plant based for seven years. I am a strength fitness coach and I also teach martial arts. I am an active guy by all standards. But seven years ago, I was diagnosed with high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and elevated triglycerides, despite the fact that I was doing a keto style diet and weightlifting like a madman. After a lot of frustration, my wife and I came across the Mediterranean diet. We gave it a shot and in almost no time my lipid panel improved significantly. What was most amazing about this journey is that I went a couple of days without meat and surprisingly felt great. I told my wife that I was going to try to eliminate all animals from my diet and that I would make sure my doctor measured my blood panel as I went.
Every single bio marker, including my body fat and weight dropped to an amazing level. Not only have I been able to maintain between 12 to 15% body fat, but at 39 I train many times a week, engaging in many different activities, and I recover so well. I truly believe with all of my heart that a Whole Foods plant-based diet can do wonders for people if they only know how to do it properly.
Thank you, Simon for all of the hard work that you put into educating the world . I really appreciate you and just know that there are a bunch of us on the ground level putting work in every day to try to help save lives.
This sounds VERY similar to my husband's story as well (Story... I'm hating that word right now...) He is now in his 60's, thriving and his only regret is not doing it sooner. H
@@workhardplayharderx2 that is amazing!!
Well done Simon, you made a great case for the scientific method, very clear cut in my mind. I also was very impressed by your graciousness, but also your ability to bring things back on point. As a nutritionist myself, I really appreciate your scientific, non-dogmatic approach - whilst I class myself more as an 'omnivore' I find your views very interesting and would agree that a mediterranean approach is probably the best for health - although everyone will have their own take when it comes to environmental/ religious/animal welfare principles. That said, it did make me smile at the end when the vegan was defending fermented dairy to the carnivore! But I don't disagree with anything you said in th podcast Simon so props to you!
I’m one hour in and if Kiltz says “stories” one more time I’m going to freak out. I didn’t realize that I was in a literature class.
He’s so damn condescending too. Ugh.
Anytime Kiltz is asked about the scientific method, data, analysis, logic, nuance, etc. his reply is basically "I'm here to tell stories". wtf?
If I were a woman I wouldn’t go within 100 yds of his facility!
In my seventies vegan but eat honey and also eat lanolin. based Vitamin D, which is derived from sheeps wool. Vegan since 1990 veggie since 86
No meds no significant medial history at all and still without glasses. My BP always tends low as well as heart rate below 60 usually,
Older things change, but all in all I think I am OK.
Going to the gym after this to hit and kick the heavy bag for a 40 minutes or so.
And some other stuff after that.Weight for shoulders kettle bell stuff.
Diets are not all having the same results with everyone, I started this for less harm not health but I think it is Ok.
I do supplement as I care about performance at exercise. Without that as prime probably only B12 and some D are necessary. If your exercise is a light walk or gardening you only need that.
I eat dark chooolate every day a very low sugar kind, but am not worried at all about fat and the sat fat in chocolate. But restaurant food always tastes oily, so I may be adapted to a lower fat than the american norm. But really I do not avoid oils. I don't go to docs really my preference is not to live long but to live long doing things like tonight I will do.
Carnivore both my parents had blindness due to macular degeneration and it is the leading cause of blindness in america. Egg yokes have small amounts of things which help to protect from that but carnivore. I fail to find a thing. Vitamins help a little but really things like lutin are it for that.
I would not risk that long term..for what? You may become blind, which sucks and it happens often quickly with no real complete treatment for the wet kind. At the very least throw in some fruits and things leafy greens perhaps
I am five eleven at around 187 or so which is my normal weight which I weighed when I was in my twenties, up and down since then depending upon exercise hobby I engage.but returning to that.I am not bragging, will never see a person who reads this , but people need to know vegan can be done fine for your whole life..
Carnivore who knows?
I am always hoping to see the carnivore doc shawn baker at some gym I attend, him a native to the town I train at, to see if he can match my heavy bag workout ,which would be quite fun me 20 at least, older than him.
Simon you are a saint for tolerating this guy and calmly disputing his "stories". If a carnivore diet can help some people in the short run, that's fine, but long-term he has no evidence and a lot of speculation. Way to point out that podcasters who try to grab attention for clicks are about money, too!
Well, I certainly didn't have to worry about this (carnivore) guy convincing me I should change my thinking on plant based eating. Painful to listen to but not a waste of time. A glimpse into the thinking of someone who thinks humans are carnivores. I cannot relate to the complete relativistic viewpoint he has and also his paranoia of being controlled.
Dr. Kiltz killed me. I was laughing out loud at some of the things he was saying. I understand his motivation which is noble but wow, what a character.
45:36 “I’m just sharing a story in life. I could be completely wrong.” 😂Way to bury the lead 45 minutes in, dude!
🤣🤣🤣thanks for the spoiler, I couldn't make it thru that far, it was so painful to watch.
Thank you Simon, it’s very difficult to talk with so big liars! Even It's imposible, but you did great!
This guy should be a politician. He talks in circles and literally never answers any questions.
Dr Kiltz ends by saying he cares about the health of everyone on the planet.
How does he propose that 8 billion people eat like carnivores? If possible at all, it could only be done via vast factory farms.
Kiltz's aversion to evidence and infatuation with storytelling is quaint at first, but utterly infuriating after two hours of repetition. How Simon kept his cool is beyond me. What an achievement! 😇
They could eat each other, I suppose. Actually, it could be done, by strategically fertilizing the ocean. But 80% of the "meat" you eat would be fish. It could also be done with tissue culturing. I don't know why I am analyzing this so closely. Clearly, 100% meat would be terrible for human health.
What do mean by fertilising the ocean?@@ChessMasterNate
@@tonycollyweston6182 There are large areas in the ocean where there is very little phytoplankton because there is some limiting nutrient that the plants need. This is usually iron. Experiments have been done where they made a fertilizer and released it on a small scale to see if it would work to grow plankton and provide food for the fish, so the fish would multiply. And it worked spectacularly. But they never did it at scale because the US has a treaty with other nations that forbids this except as an experiment. I think we need to press for a modification of that treaty or just withdraw from it. It also has the great effect of removing a lot of CO2 from the atmosphere.
There is also the problem of no one owning the ocean, so the Chinese or someone else could take all the fish we grew for themselves.
Mic drop! I have such respect for your patience with this guy. I found him quite creepy, similiar to an evangelical pastor spraking with phoney passion in an attempt to have listeners believe the nonsense that they speak.
condescending somewhat too!
Great Job Simon. Thank you for your knowledge, passion, patience, and articulation. Keep up the great work, informing us, educating us, reveling the truth, and keeping us healthy and alive. Blessings,& Love from all of us who love your pod casts. :)
I feel bad for this doc’s patients. He bases everything on stories, not science.
I'm only 20mins in the primary argument seems to be around anecdotal evidence which is about as far from scientific as it gets. I'm also confused by what is meant by "more people are allergic to plants than animals" after which he talks about cancer. Does he think cancer is an allergy? I find it concerning that a highly qualified medical professional can be so confused about his own field of expertise, even if you remove the plant based, meat based debate I'm not convinced this gentleman is still aligned with the principles of good medical practise he swore to uphold.
Does this conversation really make anyone want to go carnivore? Is this guy really a Doctor? Great job Simon!
2:30:55
things i didn't know:
- mitochondria runs on fat, not carbs.
- if we don't eat fiber, our gut flora starts eating the intestinal mucous layer and we get increased intestinal permeability.
Mitochondria (the electron transport chain) does not run directly on carbs or fat. It uses NADH and FADH2 as it substrates to generate ATP (the main fuel for our cells). Glucose is an excellent source for generating these substances--via glycolysis and the TCA cycle.
@@DrDaveND but then why did both Simon and the carnivore doc agree that the mitochondria runs on fat?
Mitochondria, often referred to as the "powerhouses of the cell," generate energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). They can utilize both carbohydrates and fats as energy sources, with the preference depending on the body's needs and activity levels.
Key Points About Mitochondrial Energy Sources:
1. Carbohydrates (Glucose):
Glucose is broken down into pyruvate through glycolysis.
Pyruvate enters the mitochondria and is converted into acetyl-CoA, which fuels the Krebs cycle (citric acid cycle) to produce ATP.
Carbohydrates are a quick and efficient energy source, especially during high-intensity or short-term activities.
2. Fats (Fatty Acids):
Fatty acids are broken down in a process called beta-oxidation in the mitochondria to produce acetyl-CoA.
Fats provide a more sustained energy supply, as they yield more ATP per molecule than carbohydrates.
This process is slower and requires oxygen, making fats the primary fuel during rest or prolonged, low-intensity activities.
Does Mitochondria Prefer Fats Over Carbs?
It depends on the situation:
At rest or during low-intensity activity: Mitochondria primarily utilize fats because oxygen availability supports beta-oxidation.
During high-intensity activity: Carbohydrates are preferred because they can provide ATP more quickly, even in limited oxygen conditions.
Diet and Nutrition for Mitochondrial Health:
To support optimal mitochondrial function:
1. Include a balance of macronutrients:
Complex carbohydrates (e.g., whole grains, fruits, vegetables) for quick and sustained energy.
Healthy fats (e.g., avocados, nuts, seeds) for long-term energy and fat-soluble vitamins.
Protein (e.g., legumes, tofu, tempeh) for repair and enzyme function.
2. Micronutrients that Support Mitochondria:
B vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B5): Crucial for energy metabolism.
Magnesium: A co-factor required for ATP production.
Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10): Supports the electron transport chain and ATP synthesis.
Antioxidants (e.g., vitamins C and E, selenium): Protect mitochondria from oxidative stress.
3. Lifestyle Factors:
Regular physical activity enhances mitochondrial efficiency and density.
Adequate sleep and stress management support energy metabolism and reduce oxidative damage.
Conclusion:
Mitochondria utilize both fats and carbohydrates for energy, with the choice dependent on activity levels and oxygen availability. A balanced diet rich in essential nutrients and a healthy lifestyle help maintain mitochondrial function and overall energy production.
Source: ChatGPT
Thousands of people are quitting the carnivore diet every year
It's the opposite. But you do you. Your brain will shrink and your teeth will fall out. Lol
@@aaronmyers2382 lol keep drinking that blood Kool aid
On the basis of what and according to whom?
What we do know is there are thousands of former vegans who have turned to carnivore to heal from the damage that ridiculous diet did to them. To my knowledge I don't know of any former carnivores who decided to become vegan.
@@aaronmyers2382 70 year old vegan here have all my own teeth clear skin people tell me I don’t look 50 very active recently had my all my bloods done my GP told me whatever you are doing keep on doing it …BTW how old are you if younger then me come back and compare when you are 70 it’s ok I’ll still be here and so will my teeth
@@RibeyeRob And you know that from…? Facebook? TikTok? Show us the evidence.
Just wondering why the carnivore doctor was deemed serious enough to even debate? He does not have expertise in the field, could not substantiate anything he was claiming, could not refute with evidence anything Simjon said. Isn't there a better expert?
Probably not, he’s the best they have for a reason…
And that would likely be accepted by him as it’s my only my ambiguous opinion 😝
He didn’t know what a polyunsaturated fat is 😂😂😂😂 this whole debate was very bizarre!
I was really excited to listen to this debate but it was painful. Dr. Kiltz was infuriating to listen to, and completely tone deaf. On one hand, he believes in stories over science, but then proceeds to use proven science to make his points when he can. Anyway, now I’m ranting. Good job as always Simon.
19:19 right from the outset he’s trying to undermine and avoid nuanced, data driven, more specific argumentation so he can make generalised, surface level arguments where most basic level educated (in this specific area of nutrition) humans can understand him, not Simon, and win public favour rather than be accurate and correct. Basically like a lawyer, winning the majority over to win rather than to have a dialectic to figure out the truth or optimal as Simon suggested earlier
Good insight.
Well….Simon making it to the end of this is amazing. Giving him a platform is controversial in itself. I’m not surprised he was told to stop at his place of employment.
The dr. doesn't know what saturated fat is?
There’s a difference between an allergy and an intolerance. Also, there are roughly 300k known edible plants and 5 categories of animal products (meat, seafood, eggs, dairy and honey - seafood could be divided between fish and crustaceans). So, of course there are more ppl with food allergies or intolerances to plants… but let’s talk about how roughly 65-68% of the world’s population is dairy intolerant, vs 1-2% that have a peanut allergy, or 0.8% with nightshade allergies, 1% allergy to avocados, 2% have anaphylaxis to shellfish. I’m not saying one is better or worse, but these allergies aren’t making plants inedible on a large scale for ppl. My mom and brother have avocado allergies. I don’t. We all still eat plants. It doesn’t make the rest of them bad… what a ridiculous argument! I feel like a lot of this nonsense is a byproduct of FODMAP eliminations becoming popular. Again, improper messaging.
You forgot mollusks, sea anemones, sea urchins, sea cucumbers, whales, dolphins and porpoises, sea turtles, sea turtle eggs, caviar and more.
What's with the bowel bleeding? These people with these problems. He told him most people do not eat plants or fruits. The average person eats junk. I tried carnivores, and I felt terrible. I didn't want to cycle or do any kind of physical training.
Seriously he was bleeding a quart a day excretion and he never called Will BulseiwicZ .
I bet they both believe that exercise is healthy and important.
But Simon reads through mountains of evidence from the scientific community in search of truth.
Dr. Kiltz likes to tell stories and to listen to stories. That cross speaks volumes about his philosophical values. He loves powerful stories and doesn’t much care about the actual facts.
So the carnivore claims to appreciate science and then just denies it like a conspiracy theorist 😂
Kiltz is a zealot. Dare I say gaslighting narcissist.
Can't listen to a debate when a doctor compares plants to cocaine and morphine. I think a more legitimate debate would have been between two research scientists who study nutrition.
We have a winner! Exactly.
This is probably the best episode lately! A very fruitful dialogue. Vegan for the animals, 9 years strong. I won't argue anything but Macrobiotic and Ayurveda which are thousand years old lifestyle traditions are vegetarian/plant based.
He’s not here for this in good faith, at all 38:38… This is exactly why people are so confused, he wants to tell everyone a story!!
He’s not even really talking to you Simon, you’ve been way way too nice to him, get a psychologist to analyse his behaviours and way of speaking.
At my house we call what this dude is doing “Narcissplaining.”
2:08:57 Dr Robert Kiltz: "You're trying to measure it by science. Science is poor at measuring things."
😊
Kind of summed it up for me.
I suppose at least he didn't say "maths is poor at measuring things". 😊
Trust the story... sure, no bias at all. Well done for being respectful despite the level of delusion @the proof
Did bro say there's no such thing as a bell curve 57:41
Yes, I think he did. I was on 2x at that point. But that is what is sounded like.
I’m definitely not trying to defend him but I think he was saying there’s no such thing as an “average person”
Yep, that seems to be his approach to science 🤣
„I‘m a scientist“ - „I recommend prayer for infertility“
Aaaaahm… okaaaaaaayyyy… makes absolute sense, doctor!
I have no iron in either fire but this kiltz guy is completely deluded and talking complete rubbish 🙈
13:13 As far as I’m aware there are very good studies showing that we evolved from plants, mainly tubers… Our brain runs with glucose, it makes sense that we’d evolve something with the fuel it runs on
Lol. Lie
@@aaronmyers2382a lie would be someone stating something they know isn’t true, as if it were true… Like the irony of this comment as you couldn’t possible know, lol!!
@IAmZanderStewart there's so much evidence. You just make it fit your biased narrative. You do you. Lol
As far as I know, we didn’t evolve from plants, but we have the same ancestors. We do indeed share 55% of the DNA with bananas for example. But I absolutely agree, the doctor doesn’t know what he’s talking about. With his theory there shouldn’t be any plant eaters in the animal world, they must have all gone extinct by now.
@@IAmZanderStewart lol. Go get an education mate.
Totally agree with you all. When challenged on science, he pivots to his being a doctor, a statistician… and then tells personal and patient stories. He sounded like a priest AND a snake oil salesman (by undermining science and public health). Also DONT refer to a study if you havent read it. It’s not only about the pretty pictures (graphs)! Thank you, Simon for your patience. I would have been putting a pencil in my eye about 45 minutes in.
PS I am a doctor in his field and I am embarrassed. Like Trump, Kiltz totally ignores science and facts, cherry picks questionable data… wonder if he will work under RFK Jr. Maybe he can sell the unproven-for-weight- loss green coffee supplements with Dr Oz. Ivermectin is looking for an indication other than deworming animals…
Not a statistician cause if he was he would understand the evidence pyramid. He literally doesn’t get it which makes me question his understanding. Anectodal being the least valuable.
I wish that Robert would simply admit that far more people in the USA are eating pizza, hamburgers, hotdogs, donuts, and ice cream on a daily basis than people who are eating Greens, Beans, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, and Nuts and Seeds.
Most of the population has not increased their fruit and vegetable consumption while reducing animal, salt, sugar, and alcohol consumption.
The recommended guidelines have simply NOT been followed by the general public.
2:27:27
Simon: it’s my duty to serve people the best I can by studying and exploring the science and data as objectively as possible
Robert: it’s my passion to tell stories, and tell you that my stories and better than your stories because it’s all just stories in the end but meat rules, plants kill and that’s a fact but not a fact fact, just my story and opinion kinda fact which people who eat animal flesh will love…
Manipulation through emotive words, because my passion is more powerful than your duty… you’re doing it because of obligation, I’m doing it because of love…
The only lie Simon told is that he would like to hang out with this guy, surely not, be serious, come on!! 😂😂 He might be a lovely guy but so disingenuous, Simon is being way, way too nice here
Simon is a very calm person and that’s a good trait . Not me! I’m type A and wouldn’t have been able to finish the podcast because the guy is a nut!
I tried but I couldn’t listen to this one, Simon. I had to stop, it frustrated me to listen to this guy. Hope your blood pressure returned to normal now
So....evidence is anecdotes?? N of one? Uhhhh...okay. Perhaps Dr. Kiltz should stick to fertility.
This was such an infuriating listen. Reminiscent of listening to a preacher that has such an inflated sense of self. Comparing science with stories of his grandmother! And with such conviction. I appreciate this was an important debate because there is so much nonsense out there but man it must have been hard. Anecdotes don’t trump science. Pun very much intended.
Everything Dr Kiltz said was so abstract/non specific and he constantly dodged questions using "story" as an excuse for everything. It honestly frustrated me listening to this. Good job challenging him Simon.
Thanks for remaining calm and collected during this, but also repeatedly calling him out when needed. Given the MAHA movement in the US I think this type of dialogue is meaningful though. It's very unfortunate that nowadays too much of our media/facts live in the realm of opinion and belief.
„The meat producers are just sharing their food and I wish they would tell us more about how good it is for us“- wtf? So, he argues that big meat and big dairy are altruistic organizations that only want people to be healthy, that’s why they torture and kill hundreds of millions of animals each year. And then he knows that big meat and big dairy are not investing in scientific studies to make people eat or drink more of their products (which is absolutely and ridiculously false, just look up the numbers).
But surely he’s not getting any money from big meat or big dairy, isn’t he? Speeches, seminars, whatever? No? Ok, if he says so…
Its funny how he talks about the power the mind when it comes to smoking but not with dairy, he's contradicting himself over and over again... Im not vegan but Kiltz makes me want to become one!🤣
Thank you Simon for consistently being an unbiased and clear voice for the scientific evidence as it currently exists.
Watched the full debate and enjoyed it I come from a plant-based bias but find the science of nutrition fascinating ate meat for most of my life just turned 76 so a long time but I believe have an open mind on the subject especially if supported by scientific data and meta-analysis I would first commend Simon for his composure throughout the debate with the good Doctor who despite his regular reference to being a physician and scientist did not substantiate his views on the basis of either science or medicine continued upper limb gesticulation irrational answers to Simon's questions and at times almost comical in his presentation if anything I believe the majority of people who watched this debate even die hard meat eaters excuse the pun would discount the extreme views of this man and look further into the controversy of diet to benefit heath full credit to you Simon for putting up with him but in my opinion your time would have been better spent debating a credible physician or scientist as you have in past episodes. Cheers Michael
Of course Mr Australian prefers Government intervention and Mr conservative America prefers no government and no regulation. Simon rightly points our that it's not the individuals fault when the guidelines have failed and Big Corporations control folks diets so much.
This conversation was doomed from the start based on those deeper philosophical differences but I enjoyed the back and forth and how well Simon handled himself throughout. Well done!
I’m from Wisconsin. I’ve never seen people eat for processed food in my life. Kwik trip, fast food, bar food, etc. Most don’t work out. Most are at the bar drinking. They go towards a carnivore diet because they love meat, and it ties in with their culture (farming/hunting). They would have the same if not better results if they followed a vegan diet, but it’s highly frowned upon, and you’re constantly ridiculed.
Also our ancestors didn’t primarily eat meat. They were alive for millions of years before having access to weapons/tools/fire, and they weren’t out catching wild animals with their bare hands. Go try it. If they wanted meat they had to risk eating an animal that they found dead or that died of disease and compete to get it.
Strong gundry vibes, kudos to Simon for not dunking too hard on kiltz. Simon:1+1=2 kiltz:no no, look-it, listen to my story
🤔13:33: “I was never there, none of us were there but certainly the scientific review of what we likely ate for many many years was probably raw meat.”
That’s an unbelievably bold claim and I wonder how many scientists would straight up laugh at that sentence.
And apparently he chooses to make an exception and trust this “scientific finding” because… he knows the scientists? 😅
If you can choose between some nice fruits or nuts, that you can find everywhere without being in danger or some raw meat that you have to hunt down first… I think we all know that our minds and stomachs are absolutely into raw meat, come on! Don’t start with parasites, etc, that’s just extra protein!
Does the Dr. Look very small with limited muscle or is it just me? With all do respect he doesn’t look healthy.
He is definitely a smaller framed person. He seems to look good on the outside, especially for 70. Also, I believe genes play a big role in people’s longevity..his parents lived to 94 and grandmother 104….so, the guy probably will live quite a lot longer with the carnivorous diet.
Simon it is such a pleasure to listen to you how centered you can stay. Dr Kiltz was unbelievably uninformed which is certainly his right. He was almost comical it is sad anyone with only a “STORY”. can have so much influence over people
If what Dr K says were true, I would have been gone with the wind ages ago.
25:39 even his framing of the debate is misleading because probably about 90 percent of people are not choosing between vegan or carnivore diets.
Has this guy never heard of an OMNIVORE?
And that very prominent cross around his neck makes me wonder if he’s truly committed to scientific evidence.
Right!!
His worldview statements and the cross he is wearing do not align in the slightest.
@@LMPM0909 They align at least insofar as intellectual dishonesty in the form of a profound disregard for good evidence and rational thinking.
In our political climate a LOT of people don’t believe in science. It’s a big problem.
Simon, you are a very polite man! Thank you for what you do!
I listened to this whole episode to the end. I learned nothing. But Dr. Kiltz's slippery relationship with science and factual data had me jumping up and hollering like I was at a poorly officiated football game with one side fouling on every play.
And he actually said people don’t eat processed food😮😂😂😂
Dr Kiltz’s explanations, arguments and “stories” don’t cut ice. Simon’s position is clear.
Took me two days to listen to it all. What a challenging interview. Way to keep calm, Simon. My head was exploding for you.
Sorry I can't finish this. It's absolute tripe. This Dr is a master of avoiding points, making excuses in lieu of presenting evidence, telling boring stories etc. It's like torture! "What's the best for form of evidence?"...."my grandmother". 🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂
This was one of the most interesting plants vs animals podcast I have heard….But, the guy is way too far out in left field. I wish there was more pushback by Simon when he talked about how plants cause colon cancer! And he mentioned several times that fiber and complex carbs are bad for people. This was totally insane. I wouldn’t have handled this nearly as good as Simon!
from my POV this is not a dialectic this is logic vs rhetoric and therefore not an actual debate i could not finish this due to the frustration i felt from Dr. Ks arguments